In short
A couple in their late 20s (Dominican Republic upbringing; now in the U.S.) explores how to balance “I” and “we” in a relationship that has become overly fused. Core conflict centers on independence (wanting to see friends alone, staying out later, drinking/going out at night) and on the emotional meaning of closeness with others (friendships that feel “intimate” to one partner).
Guest backgrounds
Both grew up with violence/neglect and little stability. One partner’s mother was a victim of domestic violence; the father manipulated the story and later strangled her in front of the children. The other partner describes financial instability, a “double life,” and being parentified.
Key claims
Their “togetherness” was built for safety, but now triggers abandonment/power dynamics. Jealousy is less about sex and more about intensity, co-regulation, and feeling replaced/excluded. Independence requires boundaries and self-regulation, not constant reassurance.
Notable examples
Tension when one wants to grab coffee or go out; frequent calls/texts when the other is out; the “night out” pattern tied to alcohol; fear that friendships become primary focus.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOIntroduction of the Couple's Background
1:15 to 1:57
Introduction to the couple's personalities and shared upbringing.
“Support for Where Should We Begin comes from TalkAboutPD.com.”
Introduction of the Couple's Background
2:00 to 4:11
Introduction to the couple's personalities and shared upbringing.
“I am pretty outgoing and I can be a little loud sometimes.”
Revisiting Childhood Trauma
4:11 to 5:51
Deep dive into childhood experiences with familial dysfunction and violence.
“and in many ways we are our parents' parents.”
Complexity of Parental Relationships
5:51 to 7:44
Exploring the impact of the father-son relationship and issues of loyalty and conflict.
“You just remember this right now, right?”
Language and Cultural Influences
7:44 to 10:11
Discussion on the importance of language and cultural context in emotional expression.
“who then has to hold the hand of his little brother When did you come out to your father?”
Navigating Painful Experiences
10:11 to 14:00
Reflections on childhood pain and the development of resilience through adversity.
“You have a similar experience with my family.”
Navigating Childhood Responsibilities
14:00 to 15:27
Explore how childhood experiences shape adult relationships and responsibilities.
“You learn to be responsible for your dad, but you deal with a big gap where you just feel like there was such a hole and I missed my mom and I missed her, period.”
Navigating Childhood Responsibilities
15:32 to 16:32
Explore how childhood experiences shape adult relationships and responsibilities.
“Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify.”
Balancing Individuality and Togetherness
19:10 to 28:01
Discuss the challenges of maintaining individuality in a close relationship.
“And the people with whom you're going to go from eating junk or eating nothing to eating well to having the first paycheck together to moving in together to moving to the U.S.”
Exploring Relationship Dynamics
28:01 to 30:43
Discover how early life experiences shape current relationship behaviors.
“With her impulsivity and her bad choices.”
Show all 15 chapters
Exploring Relationship Dynamics
30:45 to 31:59
Discover how early life experiences shape current relationship behaviors.
“Support for Where Should We Begin comes from TalkAboutPD.com.”
Navigating Independence and Responsibility
34:31 to 42:05
Learn about the balance between independence and caring in relationships.
“And that's certainly why I react the way I react to it.”
Navigating Intimacy and Friendship
42:05 to 48:07
Explore the complexities of intimacy in relationships and the challenges of sharing affection with friends.
“threshold and maybe mine is a little further down the road.”
Finding Balance in Relationships
48:07 to 50:00
Discuss the importance of balancing personal space with connection in relationships.
“That's why it's not the sex that is threatening here.”
Post-COVID Relationship Dynamics
50:00 to 50:58
Consider how the concept of closeness evolves in a post-COVID world.
“the balance between connection and closeness and freedom and independence will remain a primary task of relationships.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.
0:26This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence and may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Hint Water. Let me ask you, how is your relationship with water? Is it satisfying you, or does drinking it feel like a chore that you keep putting off? Hydration doesn't have to feel tedious. It can be exciting, unexpected, spontaneously flavorful. Here's a tip to help spice things up. Hint water. With flavors like watermelon, Georgia peach, even lemon zest freeze. Hint is water you crave. No sugar, no sweeteners, no calories.
1:09Sometimes the right hydration partner changes everything. Try Hint. Available at drinkhint.com and in stores nationwide.
1:22Support for Where Should We Begin comes from TalkAboutPD.com. Let's talk about Peyronie's disease, or PD. It's not widely talked about, and some men may feel reluctant to bring it up, but it's more common than you think. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis, causing a curve with a bump during an erection that for some men may lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health. A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including non-surgical treatment. Visit talkaboutpd.com. I am pretty outgoing and I can be a little loud sometimes.
2:05He's much more reserved than I am. The first time that he got in my radar, I was really annoyed because he wouldn't be quiet. There are two men in their late 20s. They both grew up in the Dominican Republic and came together as adults to the United States. We had a very similar upbringing, which is, I think, one of the reasons why when we first met, we connected so well. They grew up with very little. They grew up with violence, with neglect. We had nothing, literally nothing. so now everything that we have, we've built it up ourselves. And they've built a beautiful home together, a stable relationship, and each of them have quite thriving careers.
2:54We have dated more seriously. Very few people, maybe two or three that we've really dated and like fun time with them. And those experiences were fun, but ultimately we decided it wasn't working for the both of us. Sexually, they play with others. They play safe and they play well. But they struggle with a different kind of intimacy. From the beginning of a relationship, we've struggled a lot with friendships. I wouldn't say he's a loner, but he's a very shy, reserved person. And so he has a really hard time opening up to friends and having a bond with people. Whereas for me, I sought out friendships.
3:35And I sought a lot from my friendships. I wish that somehow someone could help me to be a little bit less controlling. I would like to be a little bit more relaxed. They held on to each other for dear life. And after 10 years, the togetherness has been secured. Can there be room for the separateness?
4:08We both come from families that are quite dysfunctional and in many ways we are our parents' parents. Tell me more, give me a bit of the background. Oh, where do we start? My dad is in the DR and my mom was in Florida. My dad is a very smart man who is very manipulative and very, he's always been in a financial place that's not healthy, but he also refuses to do anything about it. and it just he just relies on me a lot financially and that puts a strain on relationship who did you grow up with my dad you grew up with your dad in there the DR yeah my parents play when I was 12 my mom is a victim of domestic violence and week we witnessed it and with him yeah she picked up everything and she left and she wanted us to come with her but my dad twisted things to make it seem like my mom was the villain.
5:05So we grew up thinking that she abandoned us and that she didn't want us. And then with time, as an adult, things make a lot more sense. And I just have a hard time letting go of the fact that he just played the victim so well that it made me believe that he was the victim in that when objectively my mom was in many ways a victim to many things. You hold him responsible for severing your relationship with your mom. for that many years. Yes. She would reach out and he would block? A hundred percent. Yeah. And then you thought she was not trying to find you. Correct. And so it was, after all that, it's really difficult for me to just have a good relationship with my dad, even if I tried, and just have a hard time.
5:52You just remember this right now, right? I'm sorry? You just saw something now. It's just a lot. But you just saw something. I mean, yeah. What did you see? Just like going into my parents' bedroom and my dad strangling my mom basically and like having to see that and obviously freaking out but not really being able to do anything about it. It was just hard and so now... Stay with this one sec.
6:31at some point he kind of like let her go and settled down because my brother and I had walked in we were crying obviously we're just thinking stop what's going on and and she like ran to the corner of a room and we were standing at the door and then he stepped into the bathroom and under the like in the door of the bathroom he like grabbed the Bible and he had read like a verse from the Bible, and he was trying to find a justification for what he was doing. That's when I was like, wow, that's just insanity. Even as a child, I mean, I was like 12, I can still remember thinking, this makes no sense.
7:05I just have a hard time understanding how I even then stayed, even though I was able to rationalize that, I still stayed with him. so yeah it's just
7:21it's hard to move faster than that with him just breathe two seconds
7:28you're a talker but just let it sit for a second
7:40this is way too much to carry for any 12 year old
7:48who then has to hold the hand of his little brother
8:03When did you come out to your father? I never officially came out. He would constantly bring it up as in, you know, he would go on these random rants. He would come into my room and just yell and make all these insults and comments about it. But he wouldn't just come out and say, hey, are you gay? What's going on? Dímelo en español. Porque lo oyes en español. Eran insultos muy típicos en la Dominicana, pero definitivamente eran insultos. No era simplemente, ah, eres gay, eres homosexual. They were definitely words that were much more beyond and much more denigrant and constant. So, I never said, Dad, I'm gay.
9:03While he lives with a sense of himself as a happy, upbeat, optimistic person, It doesn't take much to realize that right underneath the surface lives a lifetime of abuse, of manipulations, of put-downs and violence. And so as he talks about his background, he squints with his eyes. And it takes one squint just to know that he just chased away an image. And so I go for the image. What did you just see? and then I feel that he's not just seeing things but he's hearing things. Speak to me in Spanish because that's the language that you heard it in and even if I didn't speak Spanish I would still ask him to speak in his mother tongue because that's the language in which the wounds were seared into his skin.
10:07It's weird how I don't like him I don't get along with him but I still he's my dad I want to please him how do you make sense of that I don't know right it's it I mean it's a question that I think we often have right how is it that as children we want the love of parents even when they did not know how to love us properly why do we feel such a sense of duty and obligation to people who may have been cruel to us from whom we still want to love And I'm assuming this is not just a question to you alone. You have a similar experience with my family. Yeah. You have your own version, right? I've actually never had a problem of seeking people that like me back.
10:56So I have lost aunts, uncles, cousins, friends. because I find that if you truly care about someone, you're not going to treat them in a manipulative way. Manipulative, yeah. It's a hard word. So I've never had that problem. So my relationship with my mom growing up, it wasn't the greatest, especially because she had quit her job and she had this idea that she would never again have a boss. So she would try to get income in really random ways that never really worked. So money was an issue and I felt a little bit resent because I feel that I wasn't able to live my childhood to its fullest. What do you mean?
12:00I feel that I had this double life because I had my household life, which was with my mom, which was in really precarious conditions. And then I had my school life, which I was lucky enough that my father, which I don't really have a relationship with, he covered all of the school expenses. So I was able to go to a really nice school in the DR. I was really focused on my studies because I look back now and I feel that that was my scapegoat, just to study. I'm able to live this life because I put so much effort in the past and now I'm past that that whole I don't even remember my life in the DR anymore after I moved to New York or I try not to remember but yeah so that was my growing up you know what's so funny and it's not funny at all is that you've just said I try not to remember and then you laugh when people describe really painful situations, but they're doing it with infusion of laughter to make it palpable, I, the listener, start to feel the stuff that you're pushing aside.
13:16I'm thinking, these two kids, because they were kids, had to navigate a shitload, period and it's not about making it it was nothing it's not about making it there is no worse it is what it is they learned codes they learned to move from one neighborhood to another from one social class to another from one parent to another they learned the map and all these experiences probably are part of your resources today that allow you to do what you do as well as you do it because we learn and we develop our resources also in the most painful of our experiences it may have been good now that you see how studious you were but at the time it may have been very lonely.
14:21Yes. You learn to be responsible for your dad, but you deal with a big gap where you just feel like there was such a hole and I missed my mom and I missed her, period.
14:49Both of them were what we call parentified children, children who became the parents of their own parents. Both of them were thrown an enormous amount of responsibility way before they were ready to assume it. And both of them grabbed onto each other for their life.
15:19We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us.
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16:12Plus, you can create entire email and social media campaigns with ease with the help of Shopify's marketing tools so you can meet your customers where they're at. It's time to turn those what-ifs into With Shopify Today. You can sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com slash esther. You can go to shopify.com slash esther. That's shopify.com slash esther. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Aloha. So many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal. For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a tip.
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17:49Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Hint Water. Let me ask you, how is your relationship with water? No, I'm not asking whether you enjoy the rain or whether you like to swim or whether you're a Pisces. What I mean is, are you getting your eight glasses a day Or do you find yourself spotting that refillable water bottle across the room and thinking, you again, do I have to drink you? We all have to drink water and staying hydrated is one of the simplest ways to feel your best. So why does drinking enough water feel like such a chore sometimes? Maybe if it were a bit more exciting, unexpected, flavorful.
18:32Here's a tip to help spice things up. Hint water. It's made with pure water and fruit essences. That's it. With delectable flavors like watermelon, Georgia peach, even lemon zest freeze, Hint is water that will make you desire water. No sugar, no sweeteners, no calories. It just goes to show sometimes the right hydration partner changes everything. Try Hint. Available at drinkhint.com and in stores nationwide.
19:09What you have is that for a while you learn to grow up together and you learn to become families for each other in the full sense of the word. And the people with whom you're going to go from eating junk or eating nothing to eating well to having the first paycheck together to moving in together to moving to the U.S. together, the whole thing. and now comes a phase where it is can we still be together and equally strong together but have a little bit more differentiation between us and this issue of how this I is going to emerge in the context of a strong we is I think where you are at developmentally
19:56I think we've sort of recently been trying to work through it. So just for instance, if you want to stay home a Saturday afternoon, but I've been working a lot this week and I want to see some friends, I'll say, I'm going to grab a coffee with X friend. And he would say, well, I don't want to go. And it becomes tense. It becomes tense in the sense that I don't even feel comfortable bringing it up as a possibility because I feel like it'll lead to an issue. And so it's things like that that we have been struggling with. And it's always in that direction? It's always usually me. Not necessarily.
20:41What do you mean? So he works a lot and therefore I do things without him. And most of the time he expects that if he's out of work, I'm just going to drop everything that I'm doing and I'm going to teleport next to his side. So both of you experience an anxiety and a tensing up when the other one wants to go do something on their own. And both of you end up being worried about saying, I want to go do something on my own because you're trying to avoid the tension between the two of you. It's either tension inside one or tension between two. Yes. What you've done is you have used a very strong together in order to give a lot of security to two selves.
21:27And now these selves would like to emancipate themselves a bit without it triggering all kinds of abandonment issues, which you both have. We mostly do everything together. So I feel that by you not allowing yourself to ask for the things that you want and you need, it's an issue because you don't allow me to experience the process of you being independent you just come out one day and say I'm fully independent no one is gonna tell me what I'm gonna do period and I feel that you do that a lot because that's how you deal with issues you're either you're really binary you're either hot or cold, yes or no.
22:17It's never un proceso paulatino. It's never a slow process to get somewhere. I don't feel that you should have the power to say, no, I don't want you to go out, you should stay with me. Especially when it doesn't really affect you in the sense that we'll still spend the night together, we'll have Sunday together. I'm not stripping away significant time from us because I do know that I work a lot. And so when we have free time, I know we try to be together and spend it together. But at the same time, I want to use that free time to do things that I want to do and be with my friends also and just do things.
22:55And so it's a little frustrating. Can I? Yeah, please. When you talk to him like this, I hear you talk to your father. Like you have no right to have this kind of power over me. he just said, I don't want you to go. You can say, but I'm going anyway. Or I understand you don't like it. And then have a conversation about it. But you're in a power thing.
23:28And in the power thing, you will do what the other person wants you to do until one day you say, now fuck it. So you keep it in, you keep it in, you keep it in. And anger motivates you.
23:43What? That's just very accurate.
23:49I understand that he can say, I don't want you to go, and we can talk about it, but ultimately, I end up not going. I mean, when we talk about it, we try to figure it out in a way where we can talk about why not, or how it could be more comfortable. The reality is that the result is that I end up not doing what I want to do. Why? Why? Because if I do it, then it upsets him. And then even if he at some point just says, OK, fine, you can go, I'll go. But he'll be calling me every 10 minutes or texting me nonstop. And then I'm not really enjoying what I'm trying to do. It's not even like I'm saying, I want to do this big event weekend thing without you.
24:28It's very small things usually. it. The first thing I will highlight for you is that your little selves, the children that live inside of you, don't make a distinction between a small little coffee with friends or a big event of the whole weekend. The little child inside of the two of you experiences the whole thing constantly, are you with me? Am I alone? And reacts from that degree of insecurity. So if the adult you are trying to have a rational conversation over, but it's just a two-hour coffee, you're talking to the wrong person. Because the one who says, I don't want you to go, or the one who calls you every 10 minutes is not that adult.
Read the full transcript
25:25And the one that ends up not going, because if he's anxious, I'm anxious. And I can't have a boundary by which I'm fine, even if he is not. Or find a way to reassure him or to tell him my phone will be off for the next two hours. Or I won't answer and begin to learn to regulate and calm ourselves when we are not with each other. Because we have so much learned to co-regulate. I just want to stop in for a second and say that it's never that he wants to have a coffee for two hours with someone because you have a coffee during the daytime. Typically this happens if he went to a work event at night and alcohol is involved and then he suddenly stops answering me or responding or whatever and then suddenly more plans come out out of that one work thing and then it becomes a full night out.
26:20and that is when I'm triggered.
26:29What's so interesting in this reaction is that he's trying to tell him if it was really coffee, I would actually be okay with this. The reason I'm not okay with this is because it's not coffee. Rather than the reason I'm not okay with this is because this triggers an intensity of emotions that roiled inside me, that is exactly what that child used to feel. I'm sure that there is more evening involved than just coffee, but that doesn't mean that if it was only coffee, there would be no trigger.
27:15It's more about nighttime activities where alcohol and people and... And the fear is? He tends to be a people pleaser. So if he's out with a friend and the friend wants to bar hub 20 bars, even though he doesn't want to, even though he's tired, even though he wants to go home, he will do it. So that's what makes me anxious because I know that he will not say no. Can I be really psychological with you? Yes, and I'm not going to like it. Go ahead. You what? I'm probably not going to like it, but go ahead. Please, I'll watch. Go ahead. You know how I said to him that when he talks to you, he's talking to his dad?
27:58Yeah. Who am I talking to? Your mom. Oh, God. With her impulsivity and her bad choices. Yes. And her being influenced by other people. Yes. And when you talk to him, you talk to her. Yep. It makes a lot of sense. It works in both directions, right? And so you do just enough for it to trigger in him. This is what used to happen between me and my dad. And he does just enough of the impulsive, people-pleasing, non-thought-out behaviors, etc., for you to think, I have to buckle down, I have to be the responsible one, I have to be the controlled one, I have to be the one who measures all the dangers of a situation, because obviously he doesn't.
28:52and when we begin to re-experience with our partners things which we experienced with our first partners which is our parents or our caregivers it doesn't just come from nowhere. We pick a person who does just enough to ignite inside of us the memory the cellular visceral memory of those interactions so that we then start to respond to them from that place. You want to have a conversation about respect. He has a conversation about power. So now we need to change the conversation. And that starts probably with you talking about what gets evoked for each of you. And then you can talk about friends and you can talk about sex and you can talk about, because it's the same dynamic, I think.
29:49This is the core. Yep. Yep, you are extremely correct in that. Yes.
30:01Every couple has to negotiate separateness and togetherness. It's probably one of the core tasks of a relationship. What is I and what is we? but as we all need connection and independence what sometimes will happen in a relationship is one person is afraid to lose the other and the other person is more afraid to lose themselves
30:42We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.
30:54Support for Where Should We Begin comes from TalkAboutPD.com. Let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of. And it turns out it's more common than you think. Peyronie's disease, or PD for short. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve with a bump during an erection and for some men, lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lowered self-esteem and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy. Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about PD.
31:35The actual cause of PD isn't always known. In some cases, it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or other physical activity. The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non-surgical treatment. To learn more about Peyronie's disease, visit talkaboutpd.com. behind every trendy health hack is the same motivation improving your energy levels turns out the solution might be easier than you think let's talk blood sugar because this is the piece most people are missing when your blood sugar spikes and crashes everything suffers your energy your mood your cravings that 3 p.m.
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32:57Head to veracityhealth.co and use code ESTAIR for up to 65 % off your order. Once again, that's V-E-R-A-C-I-T-Y health.co for up to 65 % off. And make sure you use the promo code ESTAIR. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Mill. Food waste feels like a huge impossible problem. But that's where the Mill Food Recycler comes in. Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler. Potato peels, avocado pits, chicken bones, even dairy, mill takes almost anything. And while you sleep, mill quietly transforms food scraps into nutrient-rich, shelf-stable grounds. No mess, no smells, no fruit flies.
33:45You can use the grounds in your garden, add them to the curbside compost, or mill can even pick them up and get them to a small farm. My producer Jessie has tried it herself and I asked her about it. Jessie, tell me, have you ever felt guilty about food waste? I have felt so guilty about my food waste. But now that we have a meal, I can't express how easy it is to do something that feels like you're limiting waste and helping the planet. Try meal risk-free for 90 days and get$75 off at meal.com slash Esther. That's$75 off at mail.com slash Esther.
34:30That's definitely how I experience it. And that's certainly why I react the way I react to it. It is true that you are much more constrained and in control than I am. And it is true that I enjoy having four drinks. If we're out, I do like to have a good time. and if that means getting a little buzzed and dancing, I do it and I enjoy it a lot. I mean, it doesn't happen often, but when I do it, that's a way that I have fun. And you certainly don't do that and you don't see that as fun. I'm also not a person who drink to a point where I'll black out or I don't know what's going on or I do reckless things.
35:15Before you try to reassure him, I am not like your mom, see if you can stay with him about how you understand, how it makes sense that he would experience you the way he does. Okay. Because if he experiences you as more solid, he actually may one day allow himself to let go more. part of why he's to do this tightness is because he constantly thinks that he has to do it for two which may not be the case at all um so it's not about the alcohol it's more about me seeing that you have the power of your own self and not letting not letting other people influence whatever you want to do or whatever is best for you.
36:17And can you add to that, and this is an anxiety or an awareness that I bring with me as well. Yes. This is not just all produced by him. No, it's not all produced by him. I'm a really anxious person in general. I just can't blindly trust that people are going to be trustworthy. In the way that you can't tell me, trust me, this is not going to happen. And then every single time that the same situation comes along, it's the same result. It's the same situation. It's like either work or friends or whatever or health, which is a major issue for him. I need to be there and be like, you need to do this.
37:08You need to do that. And if I was able to see that you are a little bit more independent, not independent, but if you just take a little bit more care of you, it would be easier for me to be more chill.
37:26I mean I hear you and I appreciate that you care so much that you feel that you have to do all that but you and I'm happy to do it because you're taking care of me but I also feel that you kind of have to also let me figure out where what what I'm comfortable with and what are my you know my breaking points and what are because because in the end we do we do have different different level of risk taking and I think overall we also approach things like work and friends and all these things very differently in a sense and you have to be able to just like step back and trust that I'll be fine and if I'm not I'll trust me I will yell help I'm not just gonna drown.
38:15Yes that is correct but I feel that. The interesting thing is that each of you says, yes, but. I've now waited three times. Yes, but. Yes, but. You want him to become more responsible so that you don't have to feel so responsible for him, but he won't become more responsible because you're always there. And he's trying to tell you, let me find my own threshold, and that is way too anxiety-producing for you. you want him to trust you but then you act in a way that doesn't allow him to trust you because every time he has to step in because you didn't do what you said you were going to do so if you try to say I will change when you do it will sound nice but it won't be effective no it doesn't work it's a vicious circle so the best way you have is to say what you can do part of the anxiety about does he know where to stop is slightly related to how he acts.
39:20And part of it comes because you have decades of that as your marker. There will be the challenge of accepting that he has a different threshold, which in part is why you picked him in the first place. He's looser. He's more open to the world. He's more what you call people pleaser. He's more trusting in that way. Yes, that's accurate. And those are the very things that probably drew you to him. But they also are scary for you. And this is the law of attraction. What is initially attractive because it's different is also the source of conflict later because it is different. you know you wished when you had your mom that you didn't have to be that responsible all the time and be the one who thinks about her limits so that you could be the child who goes and explores and does and plays and discovers and makes mistakes rather than you be the studious kid who never breaks a single rule because she does all of that and part of your reaction to him is that you know you you both are the responsible children but as a result he became more constrained and you became more like i do all the right things i haven't i'm entitled to some fun yeah that's basically how i see it i'm just hoping that we would change sort of at the same rhythm but i think that's not possible because obviously we've been trying and it doesn't really work and yeah the way you've been addressing this is not helping okay and another discussion about it was one o 'clock it was three o 'clock it was 11 15 no I did call you I mean you can enjoy it I don't think you do but in any case it's not working
41:25and it's not working because there's a deeper conversation that has to do with the way you learn to adapt, what are you really saying? When I say trust me about this? Or you have got to trust me. It's kind of, you know. It's almost basically you have to trust me because ultimately I should be able to set the threshold of what's enough and what's okay. And I feel like for many years, you've been the one setting the threshold because it makes you feel uncomfortable if I'm past your threshold and maybe mine is a little further down the road. Yes, but what part of you
42:13accepted his threshold as yours? It almost felt like it was a ticket to leave me kind of thing. Like, this is just how you are. And it's just kind of like the prize of admission. Like, I have to deal with this if I want to be with you. And, you know, ultimately, I'd rather be with you and, you know, work around your anxiety and work around what makes you feel comfortable when we're not together. Because I'd rather be with you than not. At the time, I didn't know that you were putting up with anything. And then suddenly, I don't know when, it suddenly exploded. And you said that you lost a friend because I made you lose a friend.
43:00And I'm like, what are you talking about? That's not what I said. That's not what I meant. It's a pattern that keeps repeating. Because whenever I get close to a friend, and we get very, very close, where we check in, maybe not every day, but we chat often. We check in about work stuff. We share some stuff. We have common interests. He has a hard time seeing that it's just a friendship and that it's okay for me to have a friend who I share things with and I have common interests with that maybe we don't share. It's also that when you get close to people with your interests, you tend to get close to people physically as well.
43:41And I have a hard time with that because to me, there's a really straight line where friendship and more than friends is divided. and I feel that your line is a little bit more blurry and that makes me extremely uncomfortable because I feel that it suddenly becomes this constant person there that I might not want them to be so constant there or I feel that you focus too much on the person and then that person becomes your person and it just makes me really uncomfortable. Okay. I think just for the sake of clearness, when you say physical, it's not like I don't have sex with my friends. And we don't make out.
44:30Oh, no. Not at all. It's not intimate. It's simply that I am generally, and also just not with friends, just in general, I am physically affectionate with people that I feel comfortable with. I don't go around hugging every single person in my office, but I hug some of my coworkers. this? You keep saying it's not intimate, and I think that's exactly what it is. It may not be sexual, but it is intimate. And what I'm hearing you say is that it's the intense intimacy, it's the kind of infatuation, it's the sense that you're being replaced or pushed aside, that there's somebody else who suddenly becomes his primary focus, and then you feel basically excluded.
45:18I held these sessions in a pre-COVID world when people could still talk about how they are physical beings who go to work and hug those that they feel close to. Who knows which world we will come back to? At this moment, the question of physical closeness is going to take on new expressions, but the categories won't necessarily change. The discussion about how it is the friendship, the intimacy of friendships, the closeness that triggers him because he experiences the energy being siphoned out of their relationship and being directed to those friends.
46:04I want to have the intimacy with him, and that's it. Or whoever we decide to have intimacy with together, in not a platonic way, there I don't have a problem. If it's a friend that he has his focus on, that friend and I, we sort of have to live with each other in a way. We compete. I wouldn't say compete. It's coexisting. Because after nine years, no one is competition. And I'm not competitive, but it's true. I don't feel threatened that my relationship will end. I don't feel threatened that... You don't? I do not. You don't? I do not feel threatened. But mindful that multiple relationships can happen at once.
46:57And that is what I'm afraid of. It's not that I'm going to lose him. It's that I'm going to have to share him with someone that I don't want to share my life with. I don't want to share my experiences with. It's a form of loss, too, you know. In that way. Yeah. It may not be a definitive loss, but it is a form of loss. There is sharing that makes you feel that you have more, and there is sharing that makes you feel that you have less.
47:28Yes. Interestingly, he doesn't think you would leave him. He just thinks he would have less of you because you would have others. And then he starts to feel that that means he's not enough. And you will need to convey to him that others don't mean compensation. That others mean a richer life for us all. That there can't be one person for everything, which is what you have been till now. You have been for each other an entire community. Now, when you play together and you're sexual with a third, you're together. So it's a very different experience. That's why it's not the sex that is threatening here.
48:16It's the closeness. It's the intimacy. Reverse. Often reverse from straight people, actually. True. imagine that you pick a night a week first of all you start with that during the week where you go and do your own thing whatever it is you don't invite each other the point is that those are your nights off your nights to yourself so that you have you start to cultivate a different balance between separate and together and imagine you don't have a curfew on those you may actually come home a lot earlier when you don't have a curfew you'll be surprised i was perfect with the idea until you brought that i was like yeah that would be perfect until you said that i'm like yeah it has to be saturday morning because i know that if he hangs out with someone saturday morning by two he's gonna be back but i would like you to have an evening as well The point is that you actually get to be away without having the other in a constraining force.
49:26You need to be able to be away without worry. The worry that he will come back or the worry that he will experience more important things than you elsewhere and the worry that you have to protect him because he's going to be upset or depressed or angry. The challenge now is how do you make that space so that there is more room for the I in the midst of the way.
49:59Even in a world of social distancing, the balance between connection and closeness and freedom and independence will remain a primary task of relationships.
50:22So, I'm leaving it to them to see how they're going to do it now. If it's not about going to dance with other people and sweat in a club, what form will it take? The importance of this principle does not change from a pre-COVID to a post-COVID world.
50:56You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.
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From the publisher
This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin? They grew up with traumatic backgrounds, met in college, immigrated to the US together. They've built stability and security, and now one of them longs for more freedom.
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