Is This the Person I'm Meant to Be With?

29:17I went in 28 and I came out 30, 31. And it's something about hitting 30 while inside and not having that ability to live those last few years of your 20s the way you wanted to had a really big impact on, I think, both of us, but me in particular. And I just was like, I'm going to live my life the way I want to live it. I'm going to travel. I want to get back to the things that I used to like. I was on a mission, you said. Yeah. When you got out, it was you were on a mission. But I think for me, the aftermath was feeling like I lost friendships because I just was isolated when my friends were out non-isolating.

29:55They were out and about making connections or memories that I wasn't a part of. So I felt like I lost out on that. And then I guess there was a whole cultural conversation around race at the time. and again, because I was isolated, I didn't really get to experience that as well because I loved my partner at the time, but, you know, he's a white guy. So I didn't really get that conversation as well or interaction in the isolation. So, I don't know, I felt very much lost coming out of it. I kind of lost my mojo. They describe the lockdown, the suffocation, how it exacerbated all their dynamics. but also what was happening in the world outside.

30:40Here was Black Lives Matter. As he calls it, a whole racial conversation was taking place that I could not participate in. And that was one in which I may have found some of that very assertiveness, autonomy, confidence, self-worth that I was struggling with without having to do it alone. And in addition, there's something so powerful in his referencing this, because they're so locked in into this notion that one just wants to party and one wants to have a more serious engagement with life. He didn't just want to party. He wanted to be part of the larger conversation that was happening at that time around Black men and Black Lives Matter.

31:28And he couldn't. and so it adds a whole layer to him that isn't just party boy.

31:37So yeah, I think you were thriving and I was not. I don't know if I'd call it thriving. The way I describe it and I think it matches our styles too is that I came out feeling this urgency, this anxiety to make up for last time, which always forces me into action and I think you experienced it more of a kind of like a sadness or a depression and it made you just kind of like, kind of feel like defeated, like the wind had been sucked out of your sails. Like you had lost everything. You always say, I just lost this and I lost that. Nothing felt the same coming back. So, yeah, I kind of felt like just lost in it, you know.

32:14And then what did you do? I think I'm still in that process of finding my way, But I think finding my way was going inward, figuring out what I liked, connecting with myself. And I think in a way I became a recluse because I didn't want to like socialize. I think I developed an anxiety of socialization. Oh, wow. I didn't really want to talk to people as much. I kind of became the opposite of what I became going into the pandemic. I felt as though people mowed on and hadn't wanted nothing to do with me. I just had just a really negative self-view about how things were, where my place was in the world.

33:01Was it real that they had left you? No, it was all inside of you. It was all in my head. It's like we switched roles. Switch roles. I didn't feel relevant. Yeah, yeah, wow, wow. I didn't feel relevant. Wow. I guess I didn't feel important anymore. Yeah. But you see, the interesting thing is that it may look like when you were in your I'm out and about, socially hyperactive, on the scene phase, that that was an expression of confidence. What I'm hearing from you is that that was a way of dealing with the lack of confidence. That was a way of dealing with some of your questions around self-worth, which is not unusual, that being socially accepted in the center of things, every phone call means I matter, I'm important, people think of me, I'm worthy.

33:58Yeah. But if every phone call means that, it means that inside of me... I don't think that. I don't really think it. And so then somehow you think this is the problem now because you're no longer going out and reaching in the same way. But maybe this is actually not the problem, but the first version was not necessarily the problem, but the first version was not necessarily the most useful way to deal with this issue. It took care of the job. Yeah. As long as it was fast and constant. So you don't have to think. Yeah. In a way, this is more painful. This is what you've defended against all along.

34:44But this actually gives you the opportunity to really develop the confidence. Yeah. Yeah, like I put a lot of value on what party I was going to, what friend that I made, what hookup I had, and the frequency of it all, I guess, in my mind, meant that I mattered. Yeah. to your point where you're like, that was fake. That wasn't real confidence. I don't want to speak for you, but my interpretation of how things were is that you started to look to me. You felt like without me, you were lost. Like, without you, no one wants to hang out with me. They all want to do with you. And I'm like, what is this?

35:26You were the one that brought me into the fold. You were the one that showed me so much. You were the one that really opened up my life when I came into the picture with your friend group. and now you're saying you were looking to me and it was like all of these floods of emotions started coming in that I had never seen that were honestly it was both I felt good that you finally could share them with me and I felt closer but I was also a little overwhelmed because it was just a flood I felt almost like oh my gosh like if this is how he's feeling like how do I how do I take care of you. I have this memory where it was your birthday and I had planned this like fancy dinner out somewhere and I just felt like you just weren't.

36:10I don't know. I hated that. I almost resented it. It was like you feel this way and I'm still trying to help out to like make things fun and it just wasn't connecting anymore. Yeah. And I was just like this isn't fun anymore. Yeah. That's amazing. You actually did rely on him to be your fun machine. The same way that he somewhere relied on you to be the container that reminded him that it's time to come home on occasion. But he didn't like it. But he knew he needed it somewhere. And you, in a way, also needed him to be the light, fun-seeking guy. when he actually turns to you with the gravitas you welcome it because it means so much to you and at the same time you're afraid it's going to overwhelm you and you're not going to know what to do with it wow yeah I never thought of it that way yeah say it in your own words I wanted that closeness and intimacy from you and I wanted you to almost be more serious.

37:25And when the moment it started to happen, it was almost like the very thing that I was asking you for before, I was now cursing you for not giving me. So you kind of probably felt like you were in a catch-22. Well, yeah, I just definitely felt inadequate because it was like, well, the one thing that I'm good at, I'm not even doing, which is like the fun and making things happen, cheering you up, I had become the cloud now. And I guess obsolete to you in that period. So then I guess we're both kind of like, something needs to kind of happen. We need to shake things up.

38:13This whole session, we are tracking the progression of the relationship. from the beginning to where they are now. Now they're at an impasse. They're constantly picking at each other. They can't take it anymore. And they decide we need to do something. We need to do something. It seems to them that only a structural shift can stop the repeated patterns that they are caught in.

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42:01But the board breakup didn't feel like it fit for me. It just felt like we're not going to do the divorce, split up the furniture, move into other places. We were like, we know we love each other. We know that we care about each other. I want you in my life. You want me in your life. But we're running a three-legged race, and we're just tripping, and we're pulling each other in different, and we don't know how to get out of it. Yeah. And we just were like, we just need some time to breathe. That was the decision. And I won't lie and say there wasn't a practical elements to the decision, too, because like living in an expensive city also means like, OK, are you going to live by yourself?

42:45So maybe the more traditional way would have been to give each other some physical space. But we decided, at least for now, we need to be able to do a live-in separation or de-escalation. We decided to do that probably around this time last year. And we had no idea what we were doing. I mean, we just knew that we were going to start trying to live separate lives together. And you draw the line at sex. Yes. Yes. Is that? Yes. Okay. But not physical intimacy generally. Right. There's been times where we cuddle, sleep in the same bed. Hugs, all that, you know, affection. Yeah. So, you know, externally people see or our friends and they're like, what's going on?

43:37Like, you know, or most people go like, well, what's really different? Yeah. What is really different? What's different is that you try to create a demarcation that would enable you to have a much more differentiated relationship. Yeah. Where not everything one of you does, the other one has a reaction to. Yes. Yes. So you can call it de-escalating, but the de-escalation is connected to the differentiation. Yeah. Yeah. Now, of course, the interesting thing is how does it work? And why is it that no sex becomes the thing that helps you do this? Because if you ask, you know, where do we go from here, which I'm assuming is a part of why we are here, is that, yeah?

44:30You know, there is a way in which you experience a certain kind of closeness as becoming too enmeshed. and it becomes reactive and each of you starts to reinforce the mechanisms of the other, the very mechanisms that the other doesn't necessarily even want. So how do you, the issue is not how do we go from this back to being a romantic couple. The issue is how do we maintain a more differentiated stance in our romantic relationship? Yeah. I think, yeah, it's that piece of like How do we maintain our individual autonomy of ourselves? Having had the independence to live my life a bit more separately has allowed me to re-engage with that part of myself that I thought was lost when I was feeling so rigid in the old dynamic.

45:26And I've seen changes in him too. So now we're like, are these changes that we're seeing where we're having more fun together, or hanging out in a way that feels better, like something we haven't felt in a long time. Are they a byproduct of us being separated? Or are they a byproduct of us changing something about ourselves that we can now re-engage in? But they are going together. It's the kind of separation that is enabling each of you to strengthen certain parts inside of you without needing the other person to do it for you. Yeah. Yeah. These are connected. If he's not my boy toy, then I have to become more connected to the part of me that wants fun and deal with the anxiety that comes with it.

46:19If I don't have him being the Mr. Structure and Containment, then I have to find some of this myself without thinking that that makes me boring and unwanted and undesirable as a friend and all of these associations that come with what you have called wholesome. It's not the separation just as such. The separation also means that there are certain comments you no longer can make. You don't have the same privilege to intrude on my internal landscape but to tell me what you think about it. Yeah. When you have that kind of separation for the benefit of the relationship. It forces you to maintain a certain distance.

47:06Therefore, I enter more into a conversation with myself. I'm not in stereo system all the time. What's your music? Me? Oh, I like a lot of things. You're a music guy, right? Yeah, I'm a music guy. Yeah, that's what I thought. I like hip-hop, R &B, pop, you know what I mean? Throw in a little Britney Spears. So that's the thing you need to remember is he may like other music and it doesn't change how you like the music you like. Yeah. Because that's inside of you. That's something you feel very clear and confident about. So if he says, I hate that kind of music or how can you listen to this or come and listen to whatever, what are you into?

47:51More like rock music. Okay. All right. You know, it doesn't ruffle you. that feeling that you have around music is what you want to develop around the other things in life yes that's what it is it's just making more decisions that are totally based off of no influence from anyone else or anyone you get to actually know exactly what you want like and you get what you want instead of like either compromising with someone else or changing your decision based off of whatever someone thinks, it's like, no, this is what you want. You're standing in it. You're steadfast. No one's changing what you want, and no one has an opinion about it.

48:33Or if they do, it's whatever. It's funny you bring up music because it's been a place that we've connected, even though it's so different for us. It's like a sphere that we meet at. We go to karaoke, and we have so much fun. We sing in the house. We both like to sing. You know, I put on my country rock song and you listen to it and then you put on your R &B pop song and I listen to it and then we kind of like... Give each other notes. Notes on it. Okay. So you have a template. Yeah. It gives you a sense of what does it feel like when it's more differentiated. Yeah. So how do I maintain that closeness to him, that intimacy with him, without that sense that I relinquish, that I melt into him?

49:24Yes, that's the question now. If we do go back to this, can I build this autonomy or work on this individual piece of me without being distracted by you? and maybe the things that trigger me about you and what you're doing. That's the next level of differentiation. Yeah. You get to have your opinion, but mine doesn't dissolve because of it. And neither does it have to become belligerent. Defensive. Oh, defensive, right. Offensive, yes. Like a fight. Yeah, yeah. You know. So why the urgency to solve the riddle now? Yeah. I think it's like, can we go on like this forever? Why forever? Go on, first of all.

50:16It doesn't have to be forever versus now. Yesterday versus never. For me, I guess it's a limbo of like, are we together? Are we not together? Are we just kind of roommates just with the connection? You know, I guess it's me wanting a definition. And then like... In order to? Then a further commitment. I guess of like, are we going to continue living together for the next 10 years? Are we going to get married? Because, you know, it's a long time, you know what I mean? Or are we going to eventually move out and kind of really, really make that transition? So I guess it's just getting out of the limbo that we've been in for like a year now.

51:08So the question is, is the current state that we're in holding us back from other? Like there's nothing on paper. Other relationships is the main piece. There's nothing on paper. No one's holding each other back. But like, are we psychologically holding ourselves back? I don't necessarily dislike it. I just don't know if you can do it in perpetuity. Now forget the perpetuity for a second. You keep going back and forth between on the spot versus never. But what if you ever wondered that, in fact, it is the very lack of definition, that looseness that can feel destabilizing, that is also creating the space for both of us to actually make the changes that we've been wanting to make.

51:58When we were defined and committed, we got stuck. you're not stuck you're undefined which is contrary to traditional script wholesome scripts

52:15you know what are you are you really together you're not together are you sleeping there you're not sleeping together do you see other people do you not say it's kind of summarized in four or five questions yeah you'd be surprised how many people ask you of course You feel like you're on the defense, like you have to litigate your... You can also just say it's probably one of the better times we've had in a long time. It is. That's all we can say. Something about this terra non ferma, this moving ground underneath us, is actually doing us good. And if we decide at some point not to stay together, we will have developed a type of maturity in relationships that we can take with us in life.

52:59but it's like because we feel better we should stop this and make a decision you feel better right kind of that's kind of you know yeah because i feel better i can't take off the brace but it is the brace that is helping me walk better yeah sometimes it's keeping on for a little longer because it's creating movement and you need movement and you need a change that is individual. You're working on your own stuff in the context of a relationship that is giving you the safety and the freedom, both, to deal with this. This is an unusual thing. Even if it doesn't have a name and doesn't get defined and makes people curious and all of that.

53:50yeah those comments we used to make stopped in the last year the digs and the yeah snide remarks and the trivialization of what we like and i have like a whole new perspective of them so we're learning how to be in relationship differently we're learning not to have our partner be part of a cover-up operation of some of our inner challenges. Yeah. And we have a unique opportunity. We love each other enough to do this with each other in this artificial, it's not even artificial, but in this creative, actually, construct that we've just come up with. Do you sleep with other people? What do you do sex-wise?

54:42Yeah, we hooked up with other people. You hooked up with other people, both of you. So you're not like starving for the... And do you connect with each other? Do you hook up with each other on occasion? It's happened over the year. It's always been something that's given me maybe a little bit more... Because you instantly think, what does it mean? Does it mean we're back together? Does it mean we're going to connect? We're going to commit? We're going to marry? We're going to have children? Yeah, yeah. That's what we've done. What is it going to be? You didn't become queer to do the straight line.

55:13I know, right? That's so true. It's like, leave that. Right, right. That's so true. I mean, I understand. It's like, what does it mean if we cross that Rubicum again, you know? It means primarily that we were into each other and we have a deep connection and we wanted to express it also physically and leave it at that. that night or morning or whatever. Yeah. We were in limbo for about a year now. And I know for me, I'm kind of like, I don't know. You're not in limbo. Oh. That's what I'm... Damn. It's an interesting thing that you're not in limbo. You're actually for the first time moving. True.

56:03And shifting the dynamic. so autonomy for you is the ability to even know what you want or think next to someone who is opinionated which is the only way you can train your muscles so you find yourself a good rigid opinionated guy and then you can hone your chops you understand yeah i do yeah it makes a lot of A lot of sense. So you asked where we go from here. And my only thought that accompanied me the whole time is if this thing continues as it is going and it feels good, you will have your answer. But don't choke it.

56:52Because we should know, we should know, we should know. We know. What we know is what we are experiencing that is not in the title, but that is in the actual interaction, in the things that are changing inside of us and between us. That we know. And if that continues, then we will either say it's beautiful and this is who I want to make my life with, or you will say this was a beautiful love story, but it won't be a life story. Yeah. it's like there's nothing somebody from the outside can can answer here it's really the quality of the relationship is going to be with what you decide yeah and I like that concept of like if we did you know somehow make the ground stop moving on the rest it wouldn't allow for the movement forward we would either get stuck again or I don't know, just it wouldn't allow us to keep moving forward.

57:54So in a way, the uncertainty is the medicine, I guess. Yes, yes.

58:04So often, people ask me if they should work on themselves, in quote, before they can be in a relationship. And this is a very accepted notion in our very individualistic society. Go away, retreat, have a relationship with yourself, work out the kinks, and then when you feel good about yourself, then go and find someone who is going to feel equally good about you as you do. And I've always had a challenge with that premise. I think that for some people, that is obviously what needs to happen. But this is the perfect example of a couple where the other version of this exists. It is the relationship that brings out individual challenges, vulnerabilities, obstacles, fears that reside in each of them, and that they get to work out each of them by themselves, but in the context of the relationship.

59:04And I happen to think that this is equally, if not more, relevant, because I've worked with many people who have a lot of inquiries about themselves when they are alone. But it's only when you are with another person who pushes the buttons, who makes you react, that you actually in real life, in the moment, get to practice something else.

59:39Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

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