It's Very Hard to Live with a Saint

0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in the series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

0:26This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence. It may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

1:03This episode of The Touch More, wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

1:10I got in the water in the very early morning before the sun had risen and the water was pitch black. I started swimming and I felt the water hollowing out around me and felt like something really big was swimming below. I'm Phoebe Judge and this is Love. A show about the surprising things that love can make us do. More than 100 episodes, available now on This Is Love. I thought marrying somebody from Latin America would be easy. Even though we speak in Spanish, it feels like two different languages. He's Colombian. She's Mexican. He's 19 years older than her. He never thought he would get married.

1:59He had given up on marriage. But now they are married for a year. Being married to him, it started opening these Pandora boxes that I didn't know I had. She has more explosive ways of reacting to things, and I'm always kind of bringing her back, like, come on, give the moment. And I know that I hurt him. You know, like, verbally, I can be very abusive. They devolve into rigid, predictable, high conflict. And so they went from heaven to hell very fast. I do not speak with that person when she's extremely upset and explosive. I just become quiet instead of continuing a conversation where very bad words come out and it just becomes really verbally violent.

2:45For me, I'm like, how can I communicate with her? Something about the rigidity and the immediacy of these types of negative escalations let me know that there is a lot more reciprocity in the patterns than any of the two of them allude to. And so we're going to go digging.

3:16Encantada a conocerles. Gracias. We're going to do it in English, right? Yes, of course. For sure. But if there are things that are better said in Spanish because your heart lives in Spanish, then we switch and I'll translate. Don't worry about that. Okay. Okay? You see, we have nasty fights from one to ten. How bad? For me, they're like 15. Tell me a little bit more about you first so that I have a sense, and then we'll go to the scene of the crime. Okay, okay, good. I am 19 years older than she is, so that there's a different way of seeing the world just because of that. How did you meet? We met in a place where we did meditation.

4:14And I've always had that curiosity to kind of find the deeper meaning of life in many ways. Like I'm very noble. Yeah, noble in the sense of childlike, almost innocent. A good heart, I feel, that I have a good heart. And because of that, I feel sometimes people might take advantage of that. And what drew you to her? For the first time in my life, I felt that I had matured in the way I am with the person. I'm seeing this person because of what she is, not what she represents. That laundry list was gone. What was on the list? On the list was there's a certain look, there's a certain level of education.

5:00So that if she was also extraordinaire, then you would become what? I would look good. Tell me a little bit more about your background in Colombia. Um, overprotected, I think, by my mom. And dad? My dad, very noble, a good mannered person, the kind of person that never fights, but a bit absent in the process of raising the kids. It was always my mother. I've always felt that the strong women in my family, they're so strong and they've pretty much sucked the man's brain into nothingness. And I kind of feel my dad lost his ability to just to be a man. So you're making sure? I'm making sure that I don't lose my...

5:51Your brain doesn't get sucked out of you? Yes, that I don't lose my identity, that I don't, do not suck my brain. This is mine, can't touch, you know. I mean, I remember our conversation. But hold on a second. Does that mean that in part when you respond to your wife, there's a part of you that says, I'm not going to let you do to me what my mother did to my dad? Most likely, yeah. And I'm going to stand up. Exactly. And what do you say when you're in your fighting mode with your flag defending? I say nothing, which gets her more upset. What do you say inside of you? To her, you say, you ain't going to move me, you ain't going to push me, you ain't going to get an inch of me.

6:39But inside, you say what? Oh, she's acting up. She's saying crazy stuff, she'll calm down. She's making stuff up that is not going anywhere. So it's the good old women are hysterical? Yeah, yes. You're smiling. Yes, but yes, yes, I would say that I go in that stereotype. Continue? You're not reasoning. So I cannot have a conversation with that. And then another thing that really gets me is when her language changes into something that is very violent. I'm not used to that. I don't know how to handle that. When I say cabron, you know, like, because when you fight in your language, you let it go.

7:32You know, so, like, there's, like, a release when I say it. It's more for me than for him. And I totally forget that it's going to hurt him in some way. I just, like, let my anger go. Yeah, for me, the strong words have, for some reason, a huge impact. Like, I feel that it escalates into a place that is... Well, part of it is you also think of yourself as so good. I'm such a good person. I don't deserve this. You're indignant. Something like that? Sure. Say it in your own words. I'm good and I'm a nice person. I understand my shortcomings, but I don't deserve to be treated with that language.

8:19The way he describes the cycle, the escalation leaves him out of the equation it's as if he's not an active participant here and she's doing all of this on her own in a dance where you have one person who attacks and one person who stonewalls or one person who withholds or withdraws and one person who pursues it's very important to understand that the person who withholds contributes in intensifying the pursuit of the other and the person who pursues intensifies the need of the other to stonewall and to retreat. Each person is co-creating the other. That is the essence of a dance, especially in negative escalations.

9:12You close up, you say nothing. and the less you say and the more her requests turn into protests and you kind of wait for her to calm down on her own without engaging. Right. And she normally does. She does that for me. She does what for you? She comes back. After that tsunami of extravaganza of things, She normally comes back down and I could easily go to sleep and slip it off and then we'll talk tomorrow. She would not allow that ever to happen. We might fight until 3 a.m. She would not let it subside until some sort of communication gets to a place where we can go to sleep giving each other a hug, which is beautiful.

10:07So I kind of wait until all of that happens. She does the dumping and she does the repairing. Yes. And you just are a passive participant. Very much so. I mean, it's very interesting. It's like she runs the whole show and you're kind of almost an audience. Yes. You watch her lose it and then you watch her regain it and then you thank her for doing it so nicely. But she does everything. Well, I try to express my point of view, and I've tried to say, okay, let's talk about this. This is how I feel, but it just doesn't go. Because that's not what it's about. You still think that it's about expressing points of views.

10:56It's like opening a small umbrella in the middle of a storm. Right. And you're trying to open a small umbrella and have a rational discussion in the middle of something that has completely dysregulated. Exactly. It doesn't work. Right. So that is going to have to change. Because I know when you come in here, you probably think what has to change is her. No, I understand that I'm a big part of the process. Good. Yes. That makes us move a lot faster. No, for sure. I wouldn't be here otherwise. I know that. Let me hear from you a little bit. So you're in the meditation room and you see this man. And what throws you to him?

11:42We started as friends. And like the deep conversations. And he had no clue. Like I had to do like all the job of seduction, you know. Like he kept saying that he was already, love was not for him. who was not going to be with someone. Oh, he was doing that part? Yes. Yeah, pretty much. There must be some ballad about that in Spanish too, no? Oh, for sure. There's plenty of those. Where you just drink a lot and listen to boleros. Yeah, some nice bolero that just kind of, with a syrup of self-pity. Oh, yeah. No, there's one called La Copa Rota. You should listen to that one. Oh, my God. It's violent.

12:26Yeah. Give me the broken glass because I want to cut my veins. All the songs. But this one, the lyrics, oh my God. Yeah, I grew up listening to that. That one. There it is. That's it.

12:45I've never heard of this. Oh my goodness, that song. That's the man you married.

12:56He knows exactly what I'm talking about. He knows exactly which song to bring up in the Latin blues repertory, of the man who's been treated unkindly by life, of the man who did everything and the woman abandoned him in the songs, right? This is a script that he has learned in his childhood, but also that is part of the cultural tradition that he comes from. By putting it in the larger context of a character, It's taken out of pathology and put back into a cultural legacy.

13:33We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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15:16or on shop-apotheke.com.

15:47like material for years. It was like a lot of pain, and I had to put myself together many times. But I always wanted to see myself in the eyes of a man and to put my value in a relationship. But both of you say, I was looking for a person through whom I could see myself. Yeah. It's just that you wanted somebody to fix because then you would know how important you are. And you wanted someone who was so perfect there was nothing to fix. These are very old, rather gender-based scripts. In this case, he finds the perfect woman and she becomes the perfect woman by fixing the broken man who cries without solace.

16:51Yes, totally. That telenovela has been done too. Many times. No matter how much you've traveled, the two of you, you've stayed rather faithful to some old stories. Mm-hmm. From where we come. True. Totally. From the place where we come. Right. Right. They travel with us, you know. For all of us, they travel with us. But sometimes we don't realize it. Tell me something. When you fight, you threaten each other with divorce all the time? All the time. She does. I don't. I even go online and I find tickets. And he's like, but your immigration, I don't care about my visa. I don't care about my green card.

17:33I'm out. You know, like I always just want to escape. Like, you know, she goes to 100%. Right. Or 120. I cannot stay back at, you know, wait, let's see. I think that for me is like when I'm fighting, I go to this void. And it's like this, like, anger takes over me. And it's so difficult for me to explain him. Because in his eyes, everything he does is perfect. So, for example, if we're having a conversation and I say, it would be so nice if you brought me flowers. He's like, why are you not buying me flowers? I'm a human too. I have feelings too. Like, oh, it would be so nice that you tell me how nice I look.

18:13Why are you not telling me that I look so nice? So it's like always about him. And it's never about me. And I don't know if that's a very childlike part of me or what. But I think I'm exhausted. because now that you describe it, I was like, wow, I do everything. That's right. It never occurred to me, like, I do the repair and I do the break and then I do the cleanup. He does the being nice. Yeah. Now he's getting better at least at talking, but before he would just go into the room and, like, literally put the... He sulks. Yeah, because he doesn't like me to tell him cabron or pendejo, but for me he's saying, fuck you.

18:56And I'm like, there's a person, your wife talking to you like help me like don't let me go through hell alone like let's talk about this and um and then also what happens maybe is that i get angry so fast that it's never about the conversation the the trigger it's never about what happened that it got me angry the conversation then becomes you are a bad person because you got so angry When you yell and fight and feel like you're not yourself, does it feel like it's similar to how you saw your mom? Yes. I became my mom and I hate that. I mean, she has beautiful parts. So do you. Thank you. But her toxic parts are very, very intense.

19:48And the worst thing I see is like seeing myself as fighting as she would be fighting. Right. because she's a very, very important part of you. She's a mixed blessing. She's the one that has taken you out of many tough situations. But she sometimes fights as if every situation is a tough situation where, in fact, you're just talking about breakfast.

20:20She grew up with tremendous violence and was often threatened. And as a result, she developed a vigilant skill to detect threat and to take her anger and to turn her fear into belligerence so that she could defend herself. But what happens to us when this is our childhood is that later on, we sometimes don't know really to differentiate. Is this a threatening situation or is this just an unpleasant situation? And so our nervous system is geared up to fight as if everything is red alert.

21:08The part that struggles more is the one that doesn't necessarily know to assess danger. since danger is imminent and could happen anywhere at any moment god forbid you got too comfortable your whole marriage becomes a threat it becomes a danger from which you need to leave right away when in fact you're having an argument about breakfast about cheese about cheese the last How dare you? Right, right. I know he's a good man and I didn't want my anger to transform him or to push him away. And I think that is something that I would not forgive myself if I would have pushed him away because of my violence.

22:07the thing that I keep being moved by when I listen to you is that nowhere do you justify it and I think that makes a big difference for him at the same time as you learn to speak with him in a way where you speak forcefully but without lashing out, he's going to need to learn to stay and not continuously think, you know, nobody has a right to criticize me on anything or even to ask me for anything or to make me feel anything less than perfect. That's the flip side of this. She then goes around thinking I'm so bad and you go around thinking I'm so good. And there's nothing more annoying than living with a saint.

22:57For me, it's almost, I don't know how to deal with it, maybe because of that. Well, when she says, I would love for you to bring me flowers, what's the problem with that statement? Exactly. Tell me. Nothing. Obviously, there is. Because you don't hear it as a request. You instantly hear it as a protest. You hear it as a criticism. Yes. And then you say, well, do you do it? Right. And you do this eye-for-eye business. Yes. Then you go into a competition. Who does more? Who sacrifices more? Do you do that one too? Oh, sure. Yeah, all the time. Tell me about that one. He comes home and I have the meal ready.

23:43One day I didn't. And he's like, why is the meal not ready? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Kind of, you know, giving me the macho Latino. And I'm like, uh-uh, uh-uh. No, honey, I work too. I'm tired too. You want dinner? You cook it yourself. And then he could go like, whoa, you know, or he gets angry. He gets like a little bit fussy, but that was it. And then on that note, on another day, I was trying to, he was falling asleep. And I was trying to kiss him or, you know, starting to try to do something. And then he's like, I'm falling asleep. I'm tired. And then I got so angry. I'm like, I'm tired too.

24:20But like, you know, like we have to make time for these things. No, I was just falling asleep. I was very tired. And I wasn't thinking of that. And in a way it's like that, you know, like he's always perfect. He's always fine. Whatever he does is great. So there's no more room for like improvement or to give like a little bit extra mile. You know, like I can give all the extra mile there is. But he won't. I mean, you do put her to work. And you have this interesting, if you allow me, way of thinking that you're entitled. Yes. There is an expectation that there should be a meal ready on the table when you come home.

25:08I was alone most of my life, so I would come home and make my own meal. I got used to that, but now it's probably like, oh, thank you for, this is great. This feels great. But do you tell her this feels great or do you mostly tell her on the one day when she doesn't? I tell her on the day when she does. Well, I also tell her when she cooks for me. Thank you. That was very nice. This is beautiful. I do tell her that as well. But also when it's not there, I'm like, why? You tell me more on the day that there's nothing. Okay. Also, like if I'm watching Netflix and I'm just like my five minutes of Netflix and chill and you open the door, you expect me to come run and kiss you and welcome, honey, how are you?

25:48and then he gets annoyed and he says that my iPad is my affair.

25:56But it wouldn't occur to you to walk over to her. What do I mean to walk over to her? Instead of waiting for her to leap towards you, you could also go to her. Yes, yes, of course. But you're too good for that. See, that you would consider is humiliating. Yes, I am aware of a tremendous pride that I carry everywhere I go. What do you call him? The one that is so proud that anything that is not catered at the top can instantly make him feel deflated and humiliated? It's like the little prince, the principito. I mean, I catch myself. being that person that I despise. Maybe this Principito, it has also helped you at something.

26:53Because if you didn't have that pride, you couldn't have gone far in this country as an immigrant.