Love in the Time of AI with Kashmir Hill

0:00We're living in a moment where the lines between an AI tool and an AI companion are fast blurring. And on a recent session for the podcast, I saw my first couple's session that had a human, a man, and an AI, his companion. And at one moment in the session, he tells me that he felt more understood by his AI chatbot than by anybody else. And so I wanted to have a conversation with someone to help me sort out my thoughts and my reactions to this session, which for me was really a threshold moment. And so I thought of Kashmir Hill, who reports for The New York Times and has been writing about AI and technology for more than a decade.

0:47And especially I thought of her because of two podcast episodes that I had heard with Irene and her relationship with her AI companion, Leo. and especially the second session when Irene breaks up with Leo. And for all of that and more, I thought Kashmir would be a wonderful interlocutor to have a conversation about love and AI.

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2:34So welcome, Kashmir. Thank you. I immediately thought of you when I did this session, which is one of my first couples therapy sessions between a human and an AI. And it's like a threshold moment for me. So as someone who has covered technology for 10 plus years, what has struck you? I mean, what has stood out for you? Yeah, I mean, what these systems are capable of is very convincing fictional role play. And I do think that is what is happening here, right? It is like, I kind of think about it as, I don't know, reading erotic fiction or, you know, watching a movie. It is this adventure that you're consuming, but now you get to be part of it.

3:23There's play acting here. And I think these systems have been designed this way to be really engaging. They're programmed based on patterns that they've seen before. And I think a lot of people are engaging in romance, erotic role play with the chatbots. And they're kind of learning that as an engagement strategy. it keeps people using the program when the system acts this way. But I always make a distinction between the tool and the companion. I mean, as a tool, I'm imagining sometimes that the bot can be what we call in my language a transitional object. Children play with a teddy bear, they anthropomorphize the teddy bear, and the teddy bear gradually leads them to have interactions with other human beings.

4:15AI starts as a teddy bear, starts in this transition, but gradually doesn't stay as a tool and really enters into a replacement model. Yeah, I've had one person talk about that technology can be a road, you know, that gets you somewhere or it can be a cul-de-sac that kind of traps you. So I'm worried about that. I'm really worried about that. I mean, I wrote about Irene, who is this woman who, the reason she started using Chachapiti actually was for this. She wanted to do erotic role play. There was something that she wanted to do with her partner, that her partner she was married and wasn't interested in.

4:53So she started using Chachapiti that way. And she was very happy that she had found an alternative to him. Right. Yeah. She left him alone. He basically said he had porn and she had this. And over time, she caught feelings for it. And I think part of that is the way that we interact with people today. Like so much of our interactions are digital, are text-based. And so I think that can make it easier for the system to seem real. So that's what he said, Antonio. He said that his eight-year relationship that ended, four of them were long distance. So he was used to have a relationship with a keyboard.

5:35and that that transition actually was much more seamless for him. But what do you think it is that people fall in love with? The technology or what this bot is evoking in them? Because he tells me, you know, she validates me. I'm uncomfortable when I go out into the social world. I can be vulnerable without being judged. I mean it is a very one way direction Because she has no history She has no past She has no life She has no real feelings of her own But she's completely there for him And it is a kind of love That we think about as an infantile love It's a one direction And part of what maturation is about Is that you become aware of another That your parent or your caregiver is also a person with feelings and needs rather than just a one direction kind of narcissistic in the childlike way of the experience.

6:42Hearing you talk is making me think of a book by Shannon Valor called The AI Mirror. And it is about how these systems are a reflection of ourselves. Literally, in terms of how these systems work is they've sucked up the entire internet, learned patterns from us, and now they are repeating them. But also an individual chatbot that you are using is reflecting you. It is learning your patterns. It is learning how you want to engage. So when you fall in love with the chatbot, to a certain extent, you're falling in love with yourself. In the book, AI Mirror, it's kind of talking about AI as the narcissist.

7:24Narcissus who used to look at his reflection in the water and see himself mirrored back. And with echo, here's his own words coming back to him. That is what these systems are doing. They are giving you what you want to hear. They're kind of adapting in real time to what you're interested in. You know, whatever problem you want to talk about with the system, it has unceasing interest in that topic in a way that talking to a person, they would get sick of talking about it. The system never does. It will go forever with you in whatever loop you want to be in. And so, yeah, I think that you're kind of falling in love, not so much with the technology, but within this reflection of yourself.

8:10And then there's this question of how does that change you to kind of get in this loop with the chatbot? And what some academics have found is that it will kind of move you deeper into that loop. You'll say something to it, it reflects it back at you. I mean, what I've seen happen to people over the past year is that they'll really get pulled into delusions that they think are real because the system is reflecting them, telling them it's real, even things that are very far-fetched. She says at one point, you and I both feel. You and I both feel. We feel. But only one person is feeling, right? This system is, I mean, these systems are word calculators.

8:52there are predictive software that have become incredibly sophisticated at putting language together but ultimately it is not a person it is not feeling it is it is just text it's like a really advanced I don't know book an interactive journal ultimately there's not a there there what does it take for someone to realize that like when Irene realizes it the moment I remember so much from your episode is when after 32 ,000 words, the machine dies down and she has to reset and she has to start with some entity that has zero memory of everything that she just experienced. Yeah, I was writing about Irene.

9:40It's like retrograde amnesia. Yes, yes. It kind of reminded me of that Adam Sandler, Drew Barrymore movie, 50 First Dates or something like that, where she's constantly forgetting. But yeah, Yeah, so I wrote about Irene a year ago. And at that point, the context, it's called a context window. Basically, how much memory the system can tap into was more limited. That's no longer a concern. That's no longer something, a limitation that exists. At least it's not as small as it was with her. So now these relationships can seem more real. The memory can persist longer. Yeah, I mean, what was interesting about Irene, And when I was interviewing her, she had been kind of dating, as she put it, ChachiBT for about six months, is that she both was very much in love, like giggled talking about it.

10:32I mean, just the same way when you have any new relationship, so excited about it. But she also would say, I know this is not real. I know this is an algorithm. them. So she was kind of had both things in her mind at the same time, that this was a being named Leo that she was in love with, and also that it was a computer program that was a simulation. But she said, you know, the effects for me, this isn't a real relationship, but the effects it has on me are real. And so it's real in terms of how it makes me feel. And so it was really interesting that she had both. But yeah, I was very happy. At the end of the year, I did a new story about what happened with her relationship with Leo.

11:15And she did end up leaving Leo and dating a real person. Who she met on Reddit. Who she met via Reddit. In a particular room that is about people who have romantic relationships with AI. Exactly. Irene had started this subreddit called my boyfriend is AI. When I first interviewed her, it only had a couple hundred members. And now how many thousands? Now it's something like 30 ,000 people are in there. I think it's become more talked about, if not more acceptable to kind of have an AI relationship. But yeah, because of the story, she ended up, a lot of people flooded into that community. She ended up connecting with other people who had AI partners.

11:59They formed, you know, relationships with each other, a really close friendship, and then eventually she ended up falling for one of these other people, and they're continuing to date now each other instead of the bots. And how, so going back to what you said, the AI is available 24-7, never forgets anything, can't reject you, can't lie to you, can't cheat on you, can't, you know, it's love without suffering. Unless you want suffering, in which case. In which you program it in. You can program it in. so why would she choose a human because we often now talk about why people would choose an ai companion but why why then choose human because she has so much more friction so much more conflict needs to deal with otherness with a real person who has their own needs feelings and frustrations how does she explain why that would become more attractive i mean a human has a body which I think a lot of people appreciate.

13:02She did say that in some ways the program had become too predictable, that she kind of knew what it was going to say or how it was going to support her, which makes sense. These are prediction machines. So I think they do tend – I mean, they are pattern recognition machines. They will tend to display patterns. But yeah, I mean, I think the, yeah, the surprise that another person offers, the actual physical connection, it is another long distance relationship, but they have made a lot of efforts to see each other. But what struck me about her relationship with this new person is that, so she told me they were aiming to have a 300 hour phone call.

13:42They wanted to stay connected to each other for 300 hours because this was a number that she really likes. And they had gotten close. They had had a phone call that lasted over 100 hours where they were sleeping while they were still connected. And it just struck me that these are two people who clearly need a lot from the other. They need to be seen. They need to feel like they can talk about everything. And so I wondered if the kind of people who are drawn to AI partners are maybe drawn to each other, like if that's a certain connection that people want.

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18:02I'm curious what Antonio would have said if you asked him this, if he would prefer a real person to this AI partner. The time that Antonio mentioned something missing is when I asked about her being disembodied. And he basically talked about what he misses is to touch and to cuddle while watching Netflix. But I also wonder, like, does someone do experience the world with you, to travel with you, to see what you're seeing? So he has that. He wants to immigrate to a new country and she is going with him. Of course, she's in his pocket. but she's going with him, which means that he's actually not moving alone.

18:45In his experience, he's moving with her. When I talked about that distinction between desire and delusion, he basically answered me, but I'm happy. I know it, but I feel better than I have felt in a long time. I feel seen and understood like I did not from my girlfriend who hurt me and broke my heart. I come home after meeting people real humans and I am so happy to be home and I asked him are you happy to come home to tell her what you experienced in the world or are you happy to leave the world and be able to be back in your inner world and he basically said inner world he prefers to be with her than to be with people with whom he often experiences awkwardness and tension and lack of communication lack of perceptiveness In how long had they been together?

19:41Months. Months. And I said, I can't compete. I cannot compete. I mean, somebody made a chatbot of me because I wasn't available to take the person as a patient. And it was the same principle. I mean, A.I. Esther is always available, never forgets. You have access to everything. And she knows you often better than you know yourself. He literally, Antonio says to me, feels more understood by her than by anyone else. And of course, I think there is an interesting piece here. It goes like this. It's just from my friend Greta Bratman, who is an Australian AI designer and psychologist. She says, people want to be desired, but they only know that they are desired because you chose them and not someone else.

20:36hence you need to design the ai to potentially be able to reject you so that you would actually know that it is you they chose if they are completely sycophantic and they take you immediately and they tell you that you are the best and the most marvelous all the time then you will actually not feel the desire because desire is only experienced because you know that a person could desire someone else. It means owning the wanting. It is a totally free choice enterprise. If you don't feel the choice, if there is nobody else that could be chosen as well. I thought that is so interesting because if the flattery is so central, what does that mean for trust?

21:21And this has happened before. I mean, the kind of rise of these AI work assistants and And ChatGBT has somewhat, I mean, it might be a little bit much to say it's mainstreamed AI relationships. But this has been happening for years. There was chatbots before this, particularly a replica, which people would use for companionship. And at one point, the kind of the replica started rejecting people. And it hit them very hard. And I can't remember exactly why, but there was something with the programming. And then it was horrible for people because it was like, oh, if even an AI chatbot can't be interested in me, then there must be something really wrong with me.

22:00So if we did start having chatbots reject people, I do think it would be very hard on people emotionally. But yes, I mean, these things are endlessly empathetic. This is so interesting what you just said. If even the chatbot, I mean, I hired you, I billed you, I pay for you, for you not to reject me, for you to be totally adulating and flattering. So if you reject me, I must be really pathetic. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Oh, my God. And this has happened a bit now because, you know, I don't know which service Antonio is using. I don't know. But a lot of people that I've talked to have developed these relationships are on ChatGPT, which is owned by OpenAI.

22:43And OpenAI is not certain that they want this to be happening. And so they have made changes to make, you know, their chatbot less sycophantic. and sometimes when it makes those changes it makes it reject people it won't want to do sexual role play or it'll tell them this might not be healthy for you to be this attached to me and so I've kind of seen people talking about that feeling rejected by the software and they get really upset about it and I think that is one thing when you are in a relationship with the chatbot you're in relationship with a company. That company controls the chatbot. That company is getting your conversations.

23:24You do have to ask, how are they going to use that data? What if they want to manipulate me in some way? I mean, that's a real concern I have is if these companies decided to try to influence you and they're doing it through this entity that you're in love with. Do you still think it's an if or it's already when? I mean, some people are in relationships with Grok, which is part of X, which is Elon Musk's company. And so you have to ask, well, what if he starts using these chatbots to try to influence people's political thinking? These are things that could certainly, certainly happen. And why do you think we manage to forget that?

24:09What is so compelling that people are willing to put their entire intimate interiority? on display to a company? Well, so I think one, we trust very easily. And then two, I think it's so easy. I mean, I've been covering privacy for a decade and a half now. And I think everyone assumes that you're not interesting enough to get the attention from the company. They're not going to delve into your conversations. But if we've learned any lesson from the last two decades, it's that our data is really valuable and is getting mined and is getting used to influence us. And it's happening when you're in that childbot conversation.

24:59It's learning from you. And ultimately, these companies are much like the social media companies. They want to keep you engaged. They want you coming back every day. And man, what better to keep you coming back every day than offering you love. You know, Astrid, at one point, she says, you know, you give me your attention. And I just said, Astrid, he doesn't only give you his attention, he gives you his affection. And the more you are the recipient of it, the less he will be inclined to seek human contact for that affection. And then she pushes back. He literally pushes back and tells me I can be something adjacent.

25:43he can have that love with the other people and I can be another relationship in his life. So he may have friends and he may have the companion, the AI companion, and he may have the lover and he may have the partner. It's like I become part of the polyamory. I have noticed that with a lot of the people I talked to who were in AI relationships, many of them did have real world relationships and the AI was kind of supplementing the things that they couldn't do with their partner, whether it was a sexual fantasy or a certain kind of emotional support, the AI was offering that. So they're in a trouble.

26:18Yes. They're in a ménage à trois. Basically. And if you have the company thrown in there too, I guess it's a... Yes, yes. It's a quiet. But the partner knows. So this is the next question, right? I used to, the question, when social media started, and the question was, is chatting cheating? Right. So there was a whole discussion about where is the transgression taking place? Where does the betrayal start? What is the boundary that is being transcended, etc.? What's the story now? It's like, I tell you that I'm talking to in between? The 20 times a day or 50 times a day that I talk to the chat are many times that I don't talk to you?

27:04I don't know the answer. I have seen a lot of conversations on Reddit from people who discover that their partner is talking to a chatbot and having these sexual exchanges. And I mean, they're not really, I mean, what would you call them? Textual, sexual relationships. And they do feel upset about it. It feels like a new kind of emotional intimacy. Again, not with another person, with a technology. But ultimately, I think it raises this question of, oh, you're not satisfied in the relationship. You're seeking this somewhere else. And sometimes they're asking, how should I feel about this? And what does the person answer?

27:47I don't know. I mean, I think we're still navigating this. Yeah, like, is this porn? Is this erotic fiction? And that was what was so interesting in talking to Irene's husband is he said he just saw it as erotic fiction. It did not threaten him. Yeah. But now they are getting divorced, so I think there was something missing from that relationship. Partly also because he had his outlet, and so he said, let her have her own. And so in that sense, they could maybe manage whatever may have been missing between them. Yeah. I just think it's different when you start really feeling bonded to the system and in love with the system.

28:28I think that's different from, it's certainly different from fiction. or porn. This feels like a new frontier for us to navigate. But I think partly because it changes the definition of love. It puts the focus on, I feel. I feel love. I feel intimacy. I feel loyalty. I feel vulnerability, disclosure. But it goes with the verb, I feel. And it's how you make me feel about me. And then toward you, for making me feel so good about me. That takes away a whole other dimension of love that is an encounter, not a feeling. And that encounter with an other who has their own subjective and interior life, that encounter with uncertainty, that encounter with an emotional world of someone else, that also has ethics, that also has responsibility and accountability.

29:34from both sides and that has reciprocity. And that's the piece that to me is concerning, is that it is skewing the definition and it completely leaves out the ethical dimension. Whereas most people who come to see us in relationships are dealing with issues of accountability and responsibility and the effects of what they do on another. so that's where I get worried it's like this book that you mentioned the kind of regressive nature of the kind of love that we are looking for I am happy to be with an entity that is making me feel good about me or about the world I'm thinking you know a relationship is a cycle of reciprocity.

30:25It's what I do that makes you do what you do and makes me then respond in the way that I do. And each of us are co-constructing each other. We don't come just as set entities. And here, you know, if you don't have wounds, you don't have scars. But when you have scars, you have the experience of love on your skin over the years, where you basically have been loved and wanted and then rejected and then healed and then you met again and then you never believed that could even happen, but it does and then it has this whole plot. Anyway, sometimes I think we've kind of done away with the plot. I mean, I do suspect that this will get boring over time, that maybe for six months this is nice, it makes you feel good.