Love in War - Where Are They Now?

0:01None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counselling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

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1:36Most importantly, they're covered by insurance. 91 % of MIDI patients get relief from symptoms within just two months. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com. I left on the third day of war. It was difficult to leave. It was like an open wound. But anyway, the decision should have been made because there was no option. Also thinking about our children. It was very hard to separate our family. But I know it's better for Alena to be in a safe country. and I know I have responsibility in my country. Every day you go to bed and think about maybe in this night I will die.

2:34When I met them the first time, she was in France with her 16-year-old son where she had found refuge for the few months since the war had started. He was in Ukraine with their 18-year-old son. Men that could be drafted were prevented from leaving the country at that time. I was in France somewhere looking at the couples. I was feeling lonely. I was feeling not loved. My man of my life is not besides me. I knew that he's going through air alerts five times per day. He has to go to bunker to save himself and our son. And I need just to be loved. I want to be loved. I want to hear compliments. I want to be the same woman for him.

3:21My first reaction was, what are you talking about? About compliment? We have war. And I never forgot about them. And I suggested at one point that we reach out and find out what has happened. Where are they now? And I found out that a year ago, they had reunited and were now living in Switzerland. and he had made the difficult choice of leaving his country to preserve his family. When I come, everything's good. We can touch each other every day. It was really like a dream, but now I don't have a job. I don't know local language. And our roles in family change and I need to start from zero. and for me it was a big big shift.

4:14It was a difficult decision. It wasn't a choice between good and bad. It was a choice between let's say bad and worse. Now that we are together it is still very hard. We are in completely different stages of life because I already went through the process of adapting to this country and integrating while he's only starting. And it feels like one life has ended and another life has just begun. and we're trying to meet each other somewhere in between. They were physically together, but they were emotionally more apart than anyone could have anticipated. So I decided to offer another session, Love in War, Part 2.

5:01Hello. Hello. Hi, Esther. you became younger you look so beautiful thank you yeah time doesn't work for you I don't know the power of one's imagination good to see you good to see you both wow so catch me up a little bit I mean we met two and a half years ago and we talked about what it was like to have a long distance relationship and to preserve love in war and to find a way to bring aliveness to the digital relationship that you were now having. And you were living very different realities at that time. And I think you had no idea how long this was going to last. None of us did. But the war is still going and is that a good memory what i'm bringing back yeah yes yes thank you so much it's um a very special moment again to see you and have this conversation the the conversation that we had last time obviously brought a lot of pain and joy at the same time and this this These weren't easy years, like two and a half years.

6:30We never imagined how long it would take us, how many months or years we have to wait. And every decision is just hard. Yeah, it was long two and a half years before we united. And all the time we tried to figure out what's good for us both. and for me it was hard decision to leave country it's like I have two bad decision stay in Ukraine and my relationship with my wife will be struggle and a lot of couples divorce a lot of couples break the relationship and i know we had good fundament fundament we just had good relationship but foundation yeah foundation but it's like bank account if you not put some in this bank of love you just only spend sometimes you'll be zero and it just scared me and I understand that good way for me it's like leafy grain yeah it's what happened Eliana what was happening on your side on my side yes we received a residency and the work permit so I found a job as an English teacher teaching children, which at first seemed to me like that's definitely not something that I want to do, but it turned out that that was a very healing thing because I could interact with kids, with their souls.

8:30That was healing. And I found an apartment, and we just stayed here with just me and my son. He's doing okay. I mean, the younger one, he studies in business school. He speaks French fluently. So things are going well for him. So, I mean, it seemed like our life is going more or less okay. I felt a part of the community. I was well integrated. But at the same time, I felt fatigue and I was exhausted to wait, to live in this uncertainty. the only thing I knew is that I want to be faithful to this man. And now, how many months has it been since you came to Switzerland? One year ago. Yeah. One year ago.

9:27One year ago. One year ago. So you make this difficult decision between bad and worse. and I can only assume that the couple that met in Switzerland finally, not just for a short visit but with a new plan of life, is not the couple that said goodbye to each other two and a half years before. So tell me about what's happening today between the two of you and who met and changed. That's a good question. and first months it was like paradise because paradise paradise it's like after two and a half years you reunited it's like holy moon with your wife you can touch her you can buy flour you can take a cup of coffee and it's like you have endless vacation because it's a new place new country it's no bombing and really it's like I have nightmare two and a half year and I wake up a new life and I'm really sorry maybe it's like my reaction but I forget about all these things what was bad and I just forget about all the struggle what people have I'm really blame little blame myself because you live in this circumstances and then change 100 % in like all things good you have wife you have peaceful place you don't need to go to shelter all the night many times I wake up in the middle of the night oh no it's not bombing it's someone close very loud door no it's not bombing it's just some motorcycle because my body erect and we were happy but after a couple months when I encountered with some reality, it's a new country, new language, very competitive markets and I couldn't, I still can't find a job here, unemployment and my wife find apartment, find job, no French language, very quick for communication but I realized that I'm so slow for change and our role change because whole my life I earn money for my family I have zero expectation for money from my life I say baby if you want work if you don't Don't work.

12:32Do what you like. Because I'm a warrior. Money is in my shoulder. But now I just put in the position where I have no income. I still study French. I still find a job. And I understand many people in Switzerland can find a job and leave this country because it's a very competitive market. It's like I come from Ukraine. Like, okay, where is Ukraine in Switzerland? I was commercial officer leader. Okay, it was in Ukraine. What's your international experience? For me, it's like I'm really down and I was disappointed. But for one side, I have a lot of support from my wife. For another side, I understand maybe she had little expectation.

13:26When I come, I help her with job. I helped her with money. I share your burden. But I couldn't. And now I continue in the process. And what has that done to the relationship? It was pressure. It was pressure. We asked a counselor for this problem. Because this year, my dad passed away and I couldn't come back in Ukraine and be in his funeral.

14:06It's okay. Just stay there for a second. Yeah, just... I just... You can't go back at this moment? I couldn't because it was a big chance that I couldn't come back again.

14:26And I'm now in position like I just feel this pressure for me. It doesn't mean that my wife gave me this pressure. But sometimes I hear how she tired after work. And we really struggle with communicate when I come. In Ukraine, before war, we have regular conversation. Every week we have date, we have a lot of time to have conversation. But now... But in Ukraine, you also had clear roles. You had very clear roles, and you were a warrior who knew what you were fighting for, and you had status, and you had a clear identity, and now your roles are upside down. Your roles are in flux. They're changing.

15:30Part of you feels like you lost your purpose, you lost your identity, you lost your power to communicate outside in the world, and you are dependent on her. You are dependent on her, you don't like it, and she doesn't like it necessarily either. You had a kind of an interdependence before that had unfolded over 20-something years and that functioned very nicely. And now the new dependent structure is very destabilizing, I assume, to you, but I'm looking at Ileana and I'm thinking it seems to be destabilizing to both of you. So now you are together, but you are no longer the people that you once knew.

16:13Your relationship is what happens when people reunite after they've been apart for two and a half years, torn by war, living completely different realities. You don't wake up at night. He wakes up a year later wondering, you know, what's the banging? And your nervous systems are completely different. It's not just your heart, your mind, your bodies, but it's visceral. And that brings up a different sense of loss, particularly for you, Alena, I would imagine. Yeah, totally. it's not that I imagined something a certain way when he would come because the only thing I dreamt of was just being together back again just going to the same bed kissing goodnight and yeah falling asleep in his arms that was just the dream of course and I felt like the moment he comes it's not only the romance that will be revived in a way, but also the masculinity that he will bring back because I'm tired of carrying feminine, masculine part of being within me, which makes feelings of gratitude on the one hand for where you are right now because you are in a beautiful city, one of the most expensive cities in the world.

17:41You have a job contract. You earn some money. I mean, enough for providing for life, but not too much to really afford yourself something more. But I was working on that. I still had a plan how and what I can develop here as a business and so on and so forth. And I felt like when Andrew will come, this will finally be the moment when we will be reunited, that we'll be empowered even more because he's by my side. He will help me with this, with this, with this. and it didn't happen. I think the hardest moment for me was seeing him first time in my life, since the moment we started dating, just losing his masculinity, his power, his strength.

18:31And on the one hand, I wanted to help, but I wanted to be helped. And the moment when we had our conversation with the counselors, everyone was saying, poor Andrew, we understand you. But I wanted someone to say, poor Aliona, because she has a lot to handle too. And this time was not easy for me. And I felt like that I need his encouragement. I need his shoulder. But this is not something he can give now. Like, I am a dreamer. I dream big. I mean I want to do so much in this life and I felt that energy flowing and I felt like we are totally like on a different size of this spectrum like from the man who was always saving because he is very wise with money so I knew him as a man who has this responsibility for me our family our children and it's not about earning a lot it's just managing well what is given to him dreaming planning for our family and now he's like i don't want anything i'm not dreaming of anything at the moment when i'm dreaming of everything and we couldn't really match we couldn't talk we went one day next to a riverbank and we went and had a conversation on the just sitting on the bench watching the ducks and it feels like we forgot what it is to talk to each other on a deep level, on the level of feelings, because I'm afraid to hurt him with all my dreams, because it brings a lot of pressure.

20:15And he couldn't share because he said, I'm okay with the minimum now. I don't need anything other than just a piece of bread and a bottle of water. so I have to accept what is right now but it's just hard for me I believe just to see him struggling to see him disempowered to see him without confidence that you've always known to see him in a refugee status to see him in a major transition and to see him somewhat depressed, dealing with the loss of his country, to see him with the loss of the sense of predictable future. He has no sense of what the future is. I mean, I'm watching your head shake when I say things, Andrew, just to know if I'm speaking truth or if I'm off.

21:23Yeah, it's like I go through difficult time for me because I lost confidence. I only why I leave it because my wife believed in me. And every day I say for myself and because she said me, you matter, you can do it. because for me when I come when I don't know language, when I had response for my CV every day, no, thank you, you're not much for our position. I lose confidence, I put in depression, and I say, okay, why I'm here? Yeah, I was with my wife, it's why I'm here, but I lost everything. it's like okay now I'm like baby in your world and I think okay I need support but I know she needs support too it's hard for me I really have but you are more likely to be able to start with a job that comes from inside the church through the Ukrainian community that doesn't really demand for a CV, but that knows who you are and can translate your experience in Ukraine and knows the qualities and the talents and the skills that you have.

22:51My sense, I don't know if it's a truth, but it's certainly an observation for me that most of the time refugees find their first jobs within their own community. Yeah, we hope.

23:10The obvious thing would be to say that he's depressed. But that doesn't begin to capture it. It is an existential condition, not just a psychological condition that he's grappling with. He's a man who lost his identity and became a refugee. And it's landing on him very hard. And he is losing his, not just joie de vivre, but raison d 'être. his reason to wake up and I'm thinking about the work of Viktor Frankl in this moment who wrote Man's Search for Meaning where he constantly was saying if people have a reason to live they can cope with all the circumstances of their life and I have a sense that he's losing that sense of purpose so I am beginning to think about how do I bring in an erotic perspective?

24:10I don't know yet what I'm going to do, but I know I need to find some way to change the energy.

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26:47This conversation, you agree. It's not like you have a different sense of reality. You both see the same things. You both see the disempowerment. You both see the loss of purpose. that you're experiencing. And I think what I hear very loudly from you, Alena, is, and I want you to see that I was waiting for my confident, strong man to arrive so that I could finally put my head on someone's shoulder after carrying everything for these two and a half years and in fact that's not what happens and a year later I'm the one trying to lift you every day which I want to do but I'm also missing the shoulder that lifted me exactly at one moment he dropped off the zoom call because he had some technical issues and he needed to reboot.

27:54So I had a few moments to talk with her alone. And I knew that the intimate physical connection had been a central part of their life, that they had very much valued it and invested in it for decades. So I wanted to find out where was she at with him on that and to get a sense of what was really happening for her that she may not necessarily want to say so directly in front of him.

28:24Are you mad at him, Ilyana? Yeah, I had a lot of anger that I had. At it or at him? At both. Tell me more.

28:44Just seeing what's happening. He was always, I was sharing a little bit about the masculine side because he was wearing suits all the time. He was very attractive. And I need a man to be attractive. So what he wears is very important. Like the smell, the perfume, the look, everything. And he is amazing in that. He always looked neat. And he would come just afterward, pick me up, bringing flowers in his beautiful navy blue suit. I just used to living like that for 25 years. And now he's at home in one shirt just because it's comfy. It's a very, very long, not planned vacation. Let's say it's on vacation.

29:35Obviously, it's very busy with things, but it's just being most of the time with his computer. And that's very different from what I wanted, the way I expected. if he's 70 or if we are 80 i'm fine with that but not now at his 50s beautiful age we still have let's say hopefully 20 years for a very active lifestyle but there are just a lot of layers that i have to battle with and there are a lot of losses i miss him that andrew and so all of this But he does too. And he does too. He does too. He misses him too. And you're afraid that it's not just a transition, but that it really is kind of indicative of some of his limitations?

30:31Yeah, maybe so. I think I'm just discovering a new, totally new man. And I think that sometimes if a person is in a certain, I don't know, setting, maybe at his job, because people love him. He was managing like a thousand people. He was a top, top, top, top manager. And when he's uprooted from that setting, what he told me is that maybe it was just by luck that I happened to be in this place. And that's the way things unfolded for me. But it's not like who I am. In his crisis of confidence, he begins to reinterpret his life story. Whatever worked happened to be the result of circumstances and chance.

31:23And whatever is not working now is a result of who I really am. This kind of fundamental attribution error. the positive is attributed to chance the negative is attributed to myself that is such an expression of the loss of identity and the loss of confidence and it's a very distorted perception of reality and it's very very important for him that he not slide into this

32:01here I am again like so what's next because I am already a bit tired I need someone's help I still believe in him and I see how many things he can do and it's just helping him in this journey is not easy because I neglect mine as a woman and my desires what has happened to the intimacy between the two of you as a result of this? I think it's... Like when he hugs you. We can start with touch, doesn't have to go straight to sex, but when he holds you, does it still have the effect that you're... I don't think so, to be honest. I want to revive it back. I just don't know. Like back in Ukraine before the war, we invested in our relationship one way or other we would rent hotels like every two months even if it's just next street just to change places we would leave the kids with our mother we would just change something constantly just to bring the freshness in our relationships and we felt like we are building very romantic relationships but now just because you cannot afford this and that maybe there are new ways we have to be creative with what we can do i don't know i just have to see him differently i don't know i have to to re-see him just i need that man in suits i need him his power and i don't know how i can help him considering the situation that we are in right now.

33:52Andrew, are you around? Yeah, yeah. Okay, close the door. It's fine. I would like you, Ileana, just go take two minutes. This may sound like a totally crazy idea, but go put your hair up and make it nice the way you like. And I would like you, Andrew, to just take a few minutes and go and get changed and come back in the self that you often have known. Ah, Esther! Go. I'll stay and I'll wait. Go. Okay.

34:35There's something very powerful in what she describes about I used to see him a certain way. she had a perception of him that was very eroticizing and she has lost it and I can sense that she's afraid that she won't recover it so I thought okay new eyes new eyes to the self and new eyes to the other and here we are doing a zoom session which is often discussed you know what are the limitations what do you lose from not seeing people in person but this is one of those moments when I thought, wow, they're in their home. Their closet is only a few meters away. Let them go and find something in the closet.

35:17And I just sat at the laptop and waited for them to reappear. I had no idea what they were going to do.

35:30So I waited probably four minutes, and then she appears, hair made up, jewelry, makeup, dress, ready to go out for the night and he shows up in that suit. It's only one suit what I have. White shirt, dapper, wow. And it wasn't just I said wow, they looked at each other and I had that sense that it had been a long time since they had seen each other. So they arrived all decked up and it was like a whole new session was starting.