Mothering My Mother Into Mothering Me

0:00Hi Esther. I'm speaking to you in hopes that we can talk about the relationship my mother and I have. It's a complicated one, but simply put, I'm the mother in the relationship. My mother was a product of an arranged marriage. My parents love each other very much, but my mother is very sheltered growing up and was married and had a child by 23 without much real-world experience herself. Then eight years later, after years of emotional abuse from my paternal grandparents, my parents moved to America. I quickly became the intermediary between the outside world and my mom. My father, who was busy with work and providing for his family, had little time to spend with us.

0:56And my mom, too incapable. My brother, too young. I became the emotional leader of my family. I jokingly say I've been an adult since I was eight. This parentification strained many relationships. As I got older, I kept having hope that my mom and I could be both adults now, but that has also rarely happened. Me and my dad have become the caretaker of her emotional needs. and if I were to be very harsh I would say that she sees herself as the victim in all of this the time that she had with her in-laws not having the exposure to feel prepared for the outside world not being able to speak English confidently all of it kind of becomes barriers to why she can't do something.

1:54And if I point out any of these things and how they impacted her children, she gets defensive and even starts guilting, you know, me so much so that it becomes my job to make her feel better. And this pattern keeps repeating and I don't know how to confront this part of my relationship with her. I love her very much and I have a lot of empathy for what she's gone through and try my best to validate and understand her. But this is also something that's the undercurrent of every interaction I have with her. So any help to mend this part of our relationship would be very helpful. Thank you, Esther.

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4:01I have been thinking about that message that I sent you. And I've landed on the fact that I think I'm trying to mother my mother into mothering me. and I don't know if that's a fair thing to accept or expect out of her and I think I'm trying to understand if I should let that go but I do feel a lot of hurt especially when I think about my younger self what comes to mind the loneliness the reason it's kind of like top of mind right now is my family loves to watch home videos and i hate to watch them because all i see is evidence of what life was like for me evidence of evidence of um a little girl put in charge trying to sustain the well-being of her family in a new place with not a lot of like guidance and knowledge of how to do that and as I got older I think I started pushing back on some of those responsibilities but I think it's met with some kind of like desperation of my help and so then I help I don't know how not to do that either did you write to us now because you were watching the home videos so my partner and I went back home and my parents wanted to watch it with him and my brother actually suggested we shouldn't do that doesn't make her feel good and then she wanted to validate if that was true but she was also hoping that it wouldn't be, that it was not the case.

6:06So she, before I could even answer, it was about, oh, you know, I think you're, you're fine, right? That doesn't bother you, right? He was saying that, but that's not true for you. And I think there was like a moment of, what do I say? Do I pretend or do I say the truth? And I chose to say the truth, you know and not in a way that you know tried to point fault to anybody but what seeing that made me feel you know i said it makes me feel sad for that person and she could tell it was feeling like a criticism of her and she wanted to rationalize it away, I tried to explain that, yes, you weren't set up for success either, but that's not to say that I didn't experience those things.

7:11But I could tell it wasn't landing. And you were not surprised. Yeah, I wasn't surprised. I mean, she was acting according to character. Yeah. She does have moments of understanding. So sometimes I push hoping that I get a glimpse of that. But if I don't, I'm quick to stop trying. What would you like? would you like to be better able to resist the tendency to rescue her at all times would you like acknowledgement of what happened in the past would you like for her to be able to let you have feelings and not always outdo you would you like your father to take you out of the triangle can i say all of the above i would love all of that in one hour or less

8:27um but if i had to choose i think it's how do i stop feeling resentful the resentment is for her limitations or for how she exploited you because of her limitations because that's what you feel i was put in a position i was too young in effect i kind of had to experience what she had experienced not enough experience with the world yet and a ton of responsibility put on me but it hasn't stopped yeah it's gone from limitations to entitlement. Yeah. My resentment is where she is now. I don't have much about... Yes, it makes me sad to see it. And, you know, but I don't feel resentful about that. Can I ask you for an example of a situation that you wish was different?

9:36Okay. I, you know, my parents, whenever they want to do something to the house, they want to make some kind of renovation adjustment. I'm always kind of like someone they hold up as, oh, having a lot of influence and power in the family. Like, oh, let's check in with her and see what she says and then we'll do that. and oftentimes I feel important you know I feel like I'm contributing something and so it's easy for me to feel like oh let me contribute but that comes to me a lot to a point where you know why is my input in this important and sometimes it's silly things like that but sometimes it'll be about their marriage you know and I have if my mom is feeling like something is not working I become kind of like her counsel in the matter like what should she do or feeling like she needs to tell someone about it and sometimes in the past especially I would meddle you know and the pattern that we got into is my mom would complain to me about my dad.

10:54I would go confront my dad and then it became a fight between me and my dad. And then mom would come in and say, oh, it's not that big of a deal. Let's stop fighting. And you would feel undermined. Yeah. Because she set you up and then she didn't back you. Right. That is more than just parentified child. you put me in I came to your rescue and then you basically found a way to ally with him against me yeah that's how it felt yeah and then in your head you say come again but I won't be there I will not intervene anymore I won't let myself be trapped like this but then you do it again it's gotten better I could now I had to tell her like your marriage is between you two you shouldn't be talking to your children about it and then she would say but I don't have my family here we are alone we left the extended family where?

12:05in India and therefore of course who else would I be talking to if not my children. But she talks primarily to you, not to your brother. Yeah. Or both, primarily to you. Both, but also, I think she also has this perception that like, oh, men can't handle the nuances of what I'm going through. So tell me something.

12:35On the one hand, they come, I feel important, I feel respected, I feel that I can contribute. And on the other end, I feel that I've had to give my opinion about a lot of things I know nothing about. Yeah. Which means I have to perform confidence. Oh, yeah. You had it nail on the head. That's my whole life. Right. And that probably didn't just stay in the house. No. That accompanied you. Because you too. Were you born in America? No, I was born in India. And you came at what age? Eight. Eight. So you too had to do a lot of learning and translating and figuring out the codes and all of that. There's a notion sometimes that the kids learn the language sooner, so they instantly are put as the official translators for everything administrative and all of the rest.

13:34See, when people say I had to be an adult since I was young, what does it actually mean, right? Yeah. What does it mean to have to perform confidence, to pretend that you know when you don't, to never be able to say I don't know because if she doesn't know, she turns to you. But if you don't know, who do you turn to? Right? Right. But I'm talking generically and you know your own experience. Yeah. I'm trying to find an example of something that embodies the adult part it's a lot of logistics and coordinating in in an admin kind of way but sometimes emotionally it's about getting her to understand something like how the world works or how relationships are or Or what a dynamic between two friends are supposed to be.

14:34And sometimes it's that. Sometimes it's like how to be a woman. It's about teaching her how to dress or style herself or put herself out there or be confident. So that's why I feel like the mother. I've taught her everything. But I'm asking you the flip side of this. I've taught her everything. and in effect I've told her things I actually didn't really know much about. Right. So I come to her with a sense of confidence that isn't true. I have to pretend with her that I know what she should do and she should wear it. But fundamentally, I myself, I'm winging it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's just my words.

15:30It is. That's how I'm imagining you. Yeah. Winging it. It's like, because it's not okay to say I don't know. Yeah. And is that true in other parts of your life too? Does that become a challenge for you? It does. I've become very self-sufficient. If I don't know something, I'll go find out. But the concept of asking someone else, I don't know how to do that. and do you have your partner who came with you to visit home how would he describe this what does he do i'm very different with him i feel like a child i feel taken care of in a sense that like i can be soft and not put together all the time and not know all the answers that is not just a child privilege you can you can just say I can let go with him I can surrender I don't have to know everything I have somebody who I can rely on and who I can lean on that's right nice nice

16:48we have to take a brief break So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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19:16so imagine mom calls you and what would be the next request i need what uh can you find me something related to some task that i have to do back home can you find out who I need to call, what I need to say, what questions I should ask. Okay. What would be the typical response? I'll get back to you. Let me figure this out. My recent response has been, have you asked about GPT? Mm-hmm. Because I don't know either. That's what I would do. Okay. And then what happens? She goes? She does. Yeah. recently she does and dad does he step in uh yes you know but I think he's kind of constructed his life is he goes to work he's busy so my mom is a stay-at-home mom so she has the time so all these kind of like questions of research either fall into her but I also work but sometimes they fall into me one of the ways you don't engage because you're not here's how I think this unfolds if you want to change the other change yourself if you tell her go do this she may on occasion if you tell her i'm so sorry i wouldn't know where to begin i'm sure you'll figure it out that's good i know that the last times you went to the chat gbd told you this to do that and you figure and i i actually learned from from what you did, I very much enjoy learning from you.

21:21I don't think I've ever said that. I'm going to suggest to you a bunch of these, but the point of these statements is that they help you redirect and not fall into the, I either have to become mean and rejecting and tell her no, or I have to do it, and then I resent her. So it's a binary. I do what she wants, and I'm upset with myself, and I do what I want, and I'm upset with her, or reverse. I do what she wants, and I'm upset with her. I do what I want, and I feel guilty, and I feel that I'm not a good daughter, and that I'm not loyal, and that I'm betraying a set of other values that are very important to me.

22:09Yes. so how do you say no without saying no yeah it's like i wish i could help i'm sure you will figure it out i'd love to know what you decide but i need your help so let's imagine it continues but i need you too that's a very good question and i'm sure you will find the answer it's not even go ask this person and go it's I know that you know you have shown multiple times how clever thorough solution oriented competent and all of this with an accent

23:03yeah I kept thinking of it as I have to push back. But entering, it's like no win. I push back, I feel bad. I do it, I feel bad. Even talking to you, I felt so guilty. I imagined. It's disloyal. Right. She is not responsible. She didn't know better. I mean, you've found wonderful ways to excuse her constantly. So to the point where you don't feel you're entitled to have your feelings. They don't exclude each other. You can totally be empathic and understand her and excuse her and understand her circumstances. And at the same time, feel that she took it too far. or even if she didn't take it too far, that it left you in a sometimes very burdensome situation.

24:05Many children of immigrant parents often find themselves in that situation. It's not an uncommon situation, but it's not always even about, you know, in the beginning there's an immigration story and on occasion there's an immigration reality. But after, what, 20-something? 30. 30, okay. So 30 years. Right? We've lived here now longer, right? It's like you know viscerally when the story is true and when the story is being used for effect. It's a crutch almost. You see, the interesting thing is that you actually will have an easier time, if I can use those words, to love mom. you will love her better yeah instead of despite or yes yeah it also feels emotionally less burdensome to like try to carry around either guilt or shame an obligation like i think that was kind of where i was putting myself it's like oh either way i'll feel a negative emotion but if I don't engage then I don't have to give me another example the example that comes to mind um when my mom's mom passed I went home to be with her and what happened when I went is that my dad kind of disengaged from providing that support and my brother didn't come so it became like her grief was mine to hold and support and I didn't think that was going to happen I thought we as a family would come do it together and I found myself kind of holding it for her you know and what happens to you then I feel burdened that, oh, I'm alone in having to do this.

26:19I was also grieving, but I had to be strong. I don't know. I think I expected my dad and my brother to also kind of emotionally be there as well. And do you ask them? I didn't at the time. and you didn't because what happens how much do you forget yourself once her reality inhabits you and becomes entirely your reality that you can no longer have any awareness of any of your own needs or needs for her for that matter that's exactly what happened I just got focused on I'm here okay fine I'll help her were you just you alone with her or did you bring some of her other supports just me and her why you know i think someone in the community found out and they wanted to provide some kind of support and actually i think they called and she didn't want anyone else to know she was surprised that someone found out and she was she wanted to kind of become a recluse and asked that person not to share it with anyone else.

27:40But she was not the only one going through the grief. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't even consider that. I know. I know. I see it. Her feelings feel so big. I don't know how to have space for mine. Right. I had a reputation earlier in my family that I was just angry all the time. I think it was maybe the only feeling I couldn't control. Sometimes it's not so much that anger is the feeling we can control, but holding on to anger is a way of feeling that we at least are holding on to some of our needs. Yes, yes. To be angry is a way of remembering yourself. Yeah. To be angry is a buffer.

28:33And I think that there are other ways to do it that don't demand you to be angry. Yeah. That don't rely on anger as the way to maintain a space for yourself, as you say. Yeah. When you are crying now, they don't know that side of you? They only know the... I have no idea what the angry side looks like. I haven't seen an iota of it. Yeah, I actually don't, for a long time I didn't know how to express anger. The anger that they're referring to is me being slightly moody, distant, maybe a little snappy. But no, I don't yell.

29:24But it's an effective anger. Because you snap and then you do. Yeah. You snap and you comply. Yeah, yeah, right. Versus to actually work diligently on maintaining that space. Yeah. I understand you do not want other people to know. We have different ways of grieving. For me, other people being here with us, coming to sit with us, bringing food to us, whatever the rituals are that are part of your culture and tradition would help me a lot

30:09my initial reaction to that is that that feels very selfish i know that's bad but which is probably why like i've been conditioned so much to even say something like that sounds selfish. What about it? I'm not surprised, but what about it? I think something is, some of it is also cultural. Like there's no such thing as individual needs, right? It's, it's, it's very much what does the family need? Yeah, but she didn't think about that either. I don't want anybody to know is not a cultural need. Yeah. Right.

30:54You know, you probably know that from having heard me at other times, I give tremendous room and space and respect for cultural values. You do. But I also have learned that in families, we sometimes do cultural camouflage. Yes. Yes. Yeah? It's like, we don't do this. Our culture, we don't do this. We use the culture to make a point that has not much to do with the culture itself. When she doesn't want anyone to know, that is not actually the cultural value. When you say, this is happening to the whole family, we are all going through a loss and we are all grieving. We need the support we can get.

31:42And you can say it in the we. you are not usurping her needs and you are not imposing your individual Americanized selfish self-centered yeah? right what other words are used? Americanized is definitely one there's a big kind of like what I want I do so it's very interesting if you assert some of your needs toward mom, you instantly will feel selfish. Yes. Mom instantly will experience you as defiant. Yes. So the system is well put in place to make sure... Finish my sentence. To keep everyone in their place. Yeah. Yeah. My invitation is a both end. Okay. Right? It's not me versus you. Right. Both ends, we are all grieving.

32:51It's a big, big, big loss. Differently for different people, but let's say it's a big loss. Is it? Yeah. It is. Yeah, I see the pattern. I see the flash of images, what I just experienced. there is so much that she expects the family to kind of do in terms of accommodating to her and I see that as like one force kind of pulling me into what is expected of me and because and then to your point I feel like I build up anger and resentment and then I snap and then I rebel and then find a way for me to feel comfortable complying. Walk me through it. There was a lot of pressure on me, especially in my early 20s, to be a good Indian daughter that wants to get married.

33:50And in our culture, a lot of that, everything about us is policed in that quest. And hair is a big one. so everyone feels very committed to how long your hair should be because hair represents femininity and it should be long and and you know luscious or whatever and every once in a while go cut it and one day I cut it off completely I had a pixie cut essentially like something that a fuck you cut a fuck you cut exactly a fuck you cut I did it because I wanted it and I didn't ask for permission or you know anything and that delayed to your prospects of marriage by how many years well considering I'm still not married pending I think it was a big fuck you to the family to the expectations to my mom's expectations of me the culture all of it.

34:54And I felt like, so here's a rebellious act that says, fuck you. And now I'm going to bring them onto my side. I'm going to say, it's just hair. It grows back. I'm young. I'm too young to be married anyway. And so I go on this campaign. And then sometimes they do come around. and, you know. I acted out, but I'm a good girl and a good daughter anyway. I had an act of rebellion, but I'm still loyal, beautiful. Ah, yes. Breaks my heart. But yes, that's been the pattern.

35:46we are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us

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37:45Is your partner from the same culture? No. He's black. And how has the family received that? not the fact that he's black as much as the fact that he's not from the culture. It's both. It's both. My parents wanted me to have an arranged marriage for early in my 20s. That perception slowly changed as I think they just got more aware of what dating is like. And so they sat me and my brother down, maybe in our mid-20s, to say, you can marry, date, whoever you want. but I think that whoever you want had parentheses of you know what's accepted I don't think they expected me to bring home a black man my dad never really voiced an opinion but I think my mom was shocked yeah and I essentially told her I understand your feelings towards it but it's not mine to carry with you.

38:49I can't help you process that. And she did it, I guess, probably with the help of my brother. She probably sourced it over there. My extended family doesn't know that I'm dating anybody. Why is that? I have to go back a little. When we moved to America, my paternal grandparents thought that was a big mistake, especially to raise a daughter in America. So much so that they sent a newspaper clipping of Girls Gone Wild to my parents to say, this is the future you've established for her. I think what is considered honorable is moving, changing within the community and within my family. You know, dating is okay, but let's get married.