My Parents Got Divorced, So Why Am I Still in the Middle?

0:03Hi, hi. Hi, Esther. So this is a very interesting starting point for me because I think it's your mother who reached out on your behalf. Yes. And it's a gesture that I think you welcomed. I did. Great. So I suggest we listen to her voice message. Sure. And then we'll take it from there. And we will know why she reached out on your behalf and what she was hoping to gift you by creating this opportunity. How does that sound? Yeah, sounds great. Okay, great. Let's listen.

0:47I think they all thought they had a pretty good childhood. Their friends thought we were like the perfect family. And I hid a lot of stuff. and my kids saw a lot, you know, but nobody talks about it in our family, at least. In hindsight, I think my husband was really strict and it was because she was the oldest and she was, had the loudest mouth and he wanted to be respected and she would go at him and I would be in the middle and I would always take her side because I just remember one conversation where he, I don't even remember the meaning of it. we were at dinner and he said, well, I'm going to take your car away for three years.

1:27And I was like, well, that's just flipping ridiculous. You know what I mean? I have to go to work. She has to bring the kids to crew. But he never talked like that to the other two. He did once to my youngest daughter and she told them never again. And he never like, he knows who he can get away with pushing their buttons. And he obviously could with me. So I don't know how much of it his pent-up childhood anxiety, right? We never talked about it. I mean, I think one of the reasons I got divorced was so the cycle would end and my grandchildren wouldn't have to hear him disrespect me. I said one thing about her dad yelling at her and she just looked at me and said, we can't talk about that.

2:09And I just never talked about it again. Right? Everybody's perceptions are different. And what I remember would be different from what she remembers as a 18-year-old kid, you know. Her dad was awesome to her, you know. He did everything for his kids and still does. He'd build you a bookcase, but he couldn't tell you he loved you as much, you know what I mean? It's just who he is, and we're all different. I couldn't build the bookcase, but I could tell him I loved him, you know.

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3:31Morning decisions. How about a creamy mocha frappuccino drink? Or sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel, maybe? Or white chocolate mocha? Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. So I watch your face as you're listening. It's like an editing process. This I agree with, that I'm not sure. This I totally disagree with. Your face is saying, yay, maybe nay. I didn't realize that it would be a roller coaster of emotions or, yeah, perplexity and then total agreement. But I don't know from listening to mom why you are here. So maybe we start with that.

4:19I understand a little bit about a background, your relationship with your father, her ex-husband, that is fraught at this moment. But you can give me a little bit more precision. Why would she want you to be here? What did you come for? And what is your question? so I recently turned 40 years old a few days ago my parents were pretty much married for almost 40 years three years ago they got divorced I have felt like for as long as I can remember it really was this triangle of a relationship with me my mom and my dad I was always their Esther Perel Well, I really was their therapist throughout their whole relationship.

5:08I was always the one who would say the things that my mom was scared to say to my dad. I was always the one who my mom told way too many details about their relationship to. I continue to always see myself as this peacemaker within my family, but I think my two siblings would disagree. They think that I'm like the rebel rouser. But I think my goal is to just always have genuine relationships with my parents. And right now, I feel like I can't have a genuine relationship with my father. I have my own little family. I have an adoring, loving husband. I have two little daughters. and our relationship is really built on this complete love and respect that I never witnessed from my father to my mother growing up and I never thought that I would have.

6:03So still to this day, you know, I feel like my mom looks at me as like the wise sage who continues to give her advice. And yeah, she, my parents had all of their kids when they were very young. They've known each other since they were 16. They were the only people that each other ever dated and ever really knew. And to this day, when I interact with both of them, I kind of get the sense that they're stuck in this rut of being 16 year olds. That's how they continue to fight. And they're almost like emotionally stunted in a way. Both of them. Both of them in a way. definitely my father much more so.

6:48My mom seems to be the one who's always at least willing to do the hard work, the dirty work of having a therapist, trying to make herself better, trying to ultimately be happy and be at peace with herself in a way that my father does in a very roundabout way, a very external way, as long as everything looks good, everything feels good inside. And your question in being here today is what? Good question. I kept thinking about this one question, and I think even over the course of the past few weeks, it's really changed. I think if I were to make it really specific at this point, it would be how do I continue to have a genuine relationship with my father specifically?

7:39And how do I manage my relationship with both of my newly divorced parents? But your newly divorced parents have been living an invisible divorce for decades before. They have. In their own home. So they're not newly divorced. No, they're not. And they are as attached as they were before. They may be legally divorced, but they fight no less. They're still in each other's brains, lives, nervous systems, and the like. Yes, definitely. So in fact, your situation is not that new. It's true. The thing that they were always so good at was pretending like everything was okay. You had to be deep in, you know, like deeply a part of the family to know the ins and outs of how my parents operated and when things were not good.

8:30And most of the time they were, that's not true. Half of the time they were really not good. Okay. So give me a tiny bit of info about what actually happens and what happens between you and your father. It's changed a lot, even over the course of the past two weeks to a month. I do feel like over the past three years, I've been grieving the loss of my father, the loss of the relationship that I once had with him. Most recently, a few weeks ago, he came to visit me and we were texting each other beforehand and kind of decided to just pretend like everything was normal for my daughters, for everybody involved.

9:17And it was a lovely, a lovely time. My dad and his new wife came over and we had a great day, actually. But the weekend before that, we got into an explosive blowout fight at my nephew's birthday party. And it seems to ebb and flow, but kind of always come back to this place where I'm holding in so much anger. What did you explode about? so all of the things that I keep trying to get him to answer and keep feeling not satisfied about mostly I saw a therapist a few years ago to figure out how to let go of this idea of holding my dad accountable for what a bad husband he was to my mother he now has this kind of new fancy shiny life and this new wife and seems to not acknowledge any of the pain that he's caused in the past.

10:17And that's been this journey that I've gone through of realizing that maybe I can't hold him accountable at all. He kind of takes no accountability. Because he says, he says what? He says, I loved your mom deeply, dearly, and sweetly. No, no. He's never used the word love to me or to my mom. Yeah, he... Growing up, it was always kind of this Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde situation. He had very inconsistent moods. But why, if I may, why is it important for you that he acknowledge to you that he was a shitty husband? who's put you to this task why does he need to be accountable to you about if at all he should maybe be to the to his ex but what is it that you're wanting or needing from him by asking him to admit to you that he didn't treat his wife well would that justify the 20 something years of free therapy you provided?

11:38And what is in it for you? I do feel like I do my mother's dirty work a lot. And she is in my head. And I've realized only really recently that when I've had so much pent-up anger that comes out in chaotic, kind of crazy ways in public situations. But you don't know whose feelings you're actually monitoring? Yeah, yeah. I can't separate it. So that's a very different issue. That means the question is not how do I hold my dad accountable. The question is how do I sort out what are my feelings for my mother's feelings? Yes, that is definitely a big piece of it. I think the other piece is the fact that I used to be so close with my dad.

12:21He used to come visit all the time. He used to text me all the time and be very much involved in my life with my young daughters and my husband who he has a lot in common with. and it really has been this process of letting go and realizing how much of my relationship with my father was actually my mother protecting me from my father when my dad has really hurt me in the past three years and I've let him know that he's really hurt me he just kind of cuts ties there's no there's no follow-up I am always the one who reaches back out to him with an apology or always wanting a little more from him.

13:03So yeah, so he used to be so involved and it was like this fading away, this slipping away of this father figure that I used to know. Have you asked him? I have, yeah. Have you asked him or have you complained? Good question. Have confronted him. Yeah, that's not the same. Yeah. Right. You've confronted him as in you were a shitty husband, now you're a shitty father? so to speak yeah or are you able to say i i would love for you to see you more often i really enjoy when you're here and uh it means a lot to me i feel like i've tried the whole range of possible ways of getting at him that i could ever think of it started a few years ago me kind of calling him and trying to talk to him one-on-one or driving to his house and trying to have conversations with him.

14:00And then it turned into me trying to FaceTime him or text him. Later, when kind of all of that seemed to slip away, I would try and talk to him one-on-one at family events. And that's kind of... But when you say conversations, FaceTime, talk to him, it's what kind of conversations? It's you usually approach him to tell him your disappointment, yes definitely so are you surprised that uh he would have less contact with you if he anticipates a scolding every time he sees you definitely there was one time about a year ago where as i drove to see him i was like i just have i always try to condense it down to its most simplest form i'm like i just have one message to him today and that is that i deeply miss him.

14:58So at this one party, I tried to just say that. And with tears in my eyes and couldn't really get it out, I said, I just want you to know that how much I miss you, how much my daughters miss you. And he just didn't have a reaction. And it's been this long heartbreak of realizing that he had nothing to say in the moment. Even when I tried my most compassionate version of trying to get him back he sees his sister your sisters more good question he would see me and my brother the most so I'm the oldest than my brother and my littlest sister it's been really interesting to see how they have really different perceptions than I do of my parents and their divorce and the relationships that we have now with both of them all three of us are now in agreement that he has taken a big step back and he doesn't really have much of an interest in his grandchildren.

15:59And what do people think? He has a new partner. He's into a new life. He sees her grandchildren. What's the understanding of why he has stepped back? I think yeah I'm always jumping into you know there was a while where I went down this whole google search black hole of diagnosing him with all these different things I was like maybe he's bipolar or a narcissist or a covert narcissist so I am always looking for a reason like that because I feel like my whole life I saw the mood changes and the mood swings and I was the one who knew about their relationship more than my other siblings. So I've always been the one who's like the most invested, but, um, their understanding of my dad slipping away.

16:58I think we're all in the same boat that, um, yeah, he started this new life. He kind of is holding onto this one person for dear life at this point. And after his divorce with my mom slipped into this really dark place and I think we'll do whatever it takes to never get back to that place. So I think he had to kind of push us away. How do you connect with her? She's incredible. She's amazing. She's so open and compassionate and she has two daughters of her own who are younger and she doesn't have any grandchildren on that side. I think I've learned only recently the story that my father has told her about our lives and my mother.

17:45And it's a very twisted version, in my opinion, of what we actually all experienced. So that's been hard. I think that's something that I'm finding to be very difficult really recently is coming to the realization about how my father continues to talk about my mother. to the people that he's closest with and managing the blowback that comes with that and trying to protect my mother in the process and trying to kind of fake it till I make it in this new path of a relationship with my father. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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22:10But you asked me, how do I have a more sincere and truthful relationship with my dad? And then you tell me, two weeks ago, I had a big blow up with him, but it was perfectly truthful. There was actually loads of authentic feelings in there. And then the second time he came to me and we had a beautiful day together and that was equally truthful. so your relationship with your dad is not sitting on false premises it may not be as warm and loving and expressive and consistent as you would like it to be but it seems everyone is kind of letting the other one know where they are at and when your dad doesn't answer you.

23:04You know, your interpretation immediately was, here I am, bearing my soul, coming to you without accusation, just from my heart, telling you I miss you, and you were stunted.

23:23And why would you think he wouldn't be? He was as truthful as he could be, actually. He's not a person that you reach out to with a sheer language of emotion. Never was. That's what you said when you say he doesn't, or your mom said he doesn't say I love you, he builds a bookcase. So to tell him I miss you leaves him rather stumped. He has no clue what to answer. Yeah. All to say that this is perfectly truthful. It's unpleasant to you. It leaves you dissatisfied. It leaves you hungry. It leaves you lonely. That he wouldn't say, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Or, oh, I miss you too. Or, oh, let's do something about that.

24:12No. And you know him too well to actually, you don't say I miss you. At best you say, come next Sunday. Yes. That's been the one and only trick that worked. Yes, that's the equivalent of the bookcase. so if you want more from your dad you may have to speak more often in the language of your dad now I am well aware that there are people who would hear this who would instantly say why me? why shall I be the one? why doesn't he adapt to me? because you can because you have more latitude, because you have more flexibility, and because you want and because you should get what you want and be smart about how you get it.

25:13And if when you say come next week, he shows up and it is going well, then you will know that you don't tell your dad, I miss you, hoping he will say I miss you. You just tell your dad, here is when I want to see you come over. Hmm. Yeah, that is the part that I've wrestled with that just always feels so unfair that everybody else seems to have to do the work to keep him in our lives. you could say why me it's another version why me why do i have to be the one to adapt why do i have to contort myself why do i have to speak his language why do i have to turn myself over you know to maintain to keep him but the other piece is simply you want to see him and you kind of have an idea of how to do it and when you do you actually get to enjoy it well then just do it and not because why do I have to do the work it's because I want to see my dad and when I want to see my dad I need to do A, B, C, D that's kind of what gets him over that's what makes him connect that's what makes him be present And I may be smarter.

26:39I may have more relational intelligence than him. And, yeah, he's lucky, the poor guy, that because I make all these initiatives, he gets to see me and his grandchildren. But I get to see him because I want to. I don't have to justify why I want to. And those are my needs, not my mother's needs. I got to differentiate a bit from what is mine and what is mom's.

27:08And yeah, there's something unfair about it. Like I have to be smarter than him on some level in this area. But ultimately it gets justified because it answers my wish. and remember I'm not doing this to be nice to him. I'm doing this because I want him in my life. Now, why do I want him in my life? I mean, we could spend an hour and analyze why he matters to you, but the main thing is he does. And to get more of him, you can't serve tomato soup. You need to serve carrot soup.

27:58You know, and you can say, oh my God, I love tomato soup. Why can't I for once serve him tomato soup? If you serve him tomato soup, he won't eat at your house. If you serve him carrot soup, he will. What matters to you more? It's like own your wish is what I'm saying to you. If you own it and claim it and don't justify it. This is a strange thing for me to say, me who usually goes looking for complexity. I'm totally simplifying this. But on some level, it's like she actually knows what to do. She resents it a little bit because she doesn't think it's fair because she thinks she's spending all her time thinking about how to get him over and he doesn't spend nearly as much time.

28:45That's the guy. And you can diagnose him 10 times. It's not going to change. So I think you may want to change your Google page. I think so, too. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that it's just such a simple answer or a simple idea. I think that is the route that my brother specifically has taken. A little more hands off, a little less, you know, lying awake at three o 'clock in the morning, overthinking his new relationship, how our relationship will go forward and just taking it a little bit more for what it is. But your brother has less of your mother's voice inside of him. Definitely. So maybe the challenge for you is you love both your parents, however they treated each other, you care about each of them, and you've spent more energy on how to bring him closer to you rather than on some level how to delineate yourself a little bit more from her.

29:56That's something that I have only started thinking about very recently. there was this this moment at this family party where I was screaming at my father my mother was talking to his mother all just kind of desperately trying to get our point across and share our version of the story and have them accept that and it was just this chaotic event and that was that was the thing that led my mother to reach out To you, Esther. A line that my mother kept saying over the past three years was, I just want my family back. If I could just get my family back. And I feel this big responsibility to prove to her that we're all still intact.

30:47We're all still okay. What does that mean, I want my family back? Good question. In what way? she you know Christmas is a few weeks away and she was about to invite my father and his new wife to her house just to literally get us all in the same room again she desperately wants us to sleep over her house and have family holidays like we used to and have my dad's whole side of his family to talk to her again and because they don't because she initiated the divorce. So it's not just her children. It's the whole constellation. That is the big misunderstanding that she initiated the divorce. And that's something that my father's new wife even mentioned.

31:42The other day at this birthday party, I kind of got into it a little bit with her as well. And that is not the truth. My father was the one to repeatedly kick my mother out of the house my whole life. And then he finally kicked her out one last time. And she made the choice to stay away. She was the one who wanted to just take a break and cool things down a little bit. And he was the one who said, I don't do breaks. We're getting a divorce. So even that continues to cause ripple effects in the family. My mother continues to see his side of the family out in public. They kind of live in this small town.