On Again/Off Again

0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in the series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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1:56They met in high school. They fell in love in college. They had a child soon thereafter. We dated for about maybe a year and we got pregnant and had a daughter. And we broke up probably, I'd say like maybe four months after she was born. We broke up for a really long time and we really didn't have any kind of communication. I know I did a majority of the parenting. He married another woman. She married another woman. He had another child with that woman. She had the daughter that they had together. For the past 15 plus years, they've been in and out. You know, his family and my family were very skeptical of us getting back together, but we just kind of looked at them and were like, you know, nobody around us has been a successful relationship.

2:52And so I'm not going to listen to anything that you have to say about how to do this. Each time they come back together, it starts out strong. and intense, and then it flatlines. I think that we're missing some things. I haven't quite figured out how to solve it. I think it's mostly me, but who knows? I want to take care of him, and I want to love him, but I'm also afraid that if I leave him, he will go further down this really lonely, dark, depressed, like he'll just spiral out. This time she says, I want to break the pattern. I want a different kind of relationship with him. I just want that person who was so hopeful about what we could do together, I want that person back.

3:41But he's so shut down, and I need to know if he's going to do the work. And so when we start the session, I ask him, what would make this a productive conversation? What would make this a useful session?

4:03It would be me being more capable of opening up and being less closed off and less private, I guess, in my own emotions and inner thoughts and things of that nature. Does she have a unique position in your world of closeness? Or do your daughters benefit from the same closeness? Or do they benefit from greater openness? I would say I'm fairly closed off with everyone for whatever reason. And I probably, she, I talked to her about a lot that's going on in my mind, but it's all like news and politics. And she thinks like, well, why is it only that? But like, it's seriously, that's just what's happening in my head, like all day, all the time.

5:02You can start with politics, but these politics seem to have a great personal meaning for you as well. I guess in my mind, like there are a lot of things that I will, I want to change just like, I don't like to see so many people struggling and suffering and having such a hard time. And I lived in that position for a long time. So I know what it's like. So I guess that's probably the reason why I am constantly analyzing what's going on and why these things happen the way they do, because I've dealt with suffering of my own. I've struggled. I struggled as a young adult for a long time and probably just over the last maybe five years got myself to a point of feeling stable and okay with where I am.

5:54Would you share a little with me? Well, so like... By the way, what you just did was beautiful. Yeah. You connected your hyper-focus on the news and on politics with your personal struggle. Yeah. And the reason I talk about this is because it's a way of talking about me and what I care about and where I once was and where I don't want to go back to and where nobody should be. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I graduated high school. I was immature. I didn't like college so much. But as we dated, we became friends. We broke up, all that stuff, went back and forth. But when we got back together, we had our first child.

6:46After that happened, I feel like that was kind of the point where my struggles kind of started. Because before it was just like, well, I could make minimum wage and take care of myself. It didn't matter. Once I had a child, it was like, well, I have to figure out a way to make enough money to support myself and to pay for this new being that is here now. And I just didn't have the wisdom or the wherewithal or the connections to know how to make all that work. there was a time where I was staying in a I was basically a squatter in these people's homes that that kind of took mercy on me they didn't have a refrigerator or stove in there but I stayed there because it was they weren't charging me like rent or anything and like it was it was gonna foreclose and it was the only place I could really like afford to be so like I had to buy a cooler and keep the kids food in there and it was it was like the only thing i could really afford to do because i just i couldn't afford anything else how long was that period there were periods of like quietness and you know times of small time short windows of stability i would say probably from 2005 to maybe like 2010.

8:11When you think about that time, because I thought you were going to talk about even younger. No, it sounds like when I describe it, it sounds like it. But yeah, it was actually a little bit later in my life. I was 22. So from 22 to like maybe 27, it was just like just this huge struggle to kind of make things work. And when you think about that time, do you have an image that accompanies it for you?

8:48I guess I always, that apartment I just mentioned is probably the place I always think about. Because I was just, I was in such a, I was really in a very, very dark place at the time. And I wasn't sure what the next day was going to be like. what is dark for you i wasn't i wasn't sure what i was going to do i wasn't sure what i was going to do myself or what i was going to do to survive or anything i was just getting to a point where i was tired and i was just i felt like there were just no there were no options there was and there was no one who could just say, I understand where you are right now.

9:37Here's where you kind of need to go. And it was hard. I remember the day, probably most vividly, that I called my mom. I was sitting there in this place. And I called her and she picked up the phone. and the first words I said to her is mom I'm not okay and she was like stay on the phone with me she rushed over and talked to me and I ended up moving back in with her and things were a little bit different and it was helpful but it wasn't ideal by any means

10:29it's an amazing thing. You start by saying, I'm closed off. And the next thing you do is you tell me to this complete stranger, the most poignant stuff, how you got to that place that day when you wonder if you want to wake up one more time. How you call to your mama and she said, just stay on the line because I'm your lifeline. and then showed up for you and just said, come home because you have a home. You know, it's a paradox. You talk about being closed off and in the meantime, you're so beautifully open. I think it's because I know I won't talk to you again after this. So it's like... The person on the plane or something like that.

11:22Right. but you're talking through me to her and one of the things I'm hearing you say because you said it a few times I had no one to tell me I had no one to guide me I had no one to to help me mature I had but I'm watching this woman and I'm thinking looks like she's been there I would say maybe all along or on and out? Well, I was super immature when we had our daughter and we split off. I mean, we've been apart for 14 years, 14 and a half, 15 years. So we didn't have the type of relationship where I could really talk with her about the things that were going on with me necessarily. I mean, we did for a short period, but I think that I think this is when I began to kind of close myself off to people.

12:24So I remember this part of our story very kind of kind of vividly. So we had broken up and I was living I was living at home. Long story short, like he did reach out like we were talking. He helped me move from my old apartment to the new apartment. there was like one night where he asked if we could talk about him moving back in we were talking and spending time together and I remember and there was like this moment in that apartment where he was crying I felt like I needed to hug him but we had had like so much history and I didn't really I didn't trust my feelings I didn't really trust opening myself back up to him Why didn't you trust him?

13:15What was it that? A part of it is he was just not ready. But tell me something. Were you ready when you got pregnant? No. So neither of you were ready, but you didn't have much of a choice. You entered the role and you did what you had to do. Yeah. Right? I mean, it's not like he was young and you were, you know, that was your next chapter in your life. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I feel like, though, I think I've told this to him a couple of times. I didn't know what I was doing, but I was willing to, you know, kind of figure it out and, like, you know, fail upwards with this. You know, it's just as long as she had food and she was, you know, just taken care of and both her parents were working.

14:13I just didn't feel like we had a partnership in the parenting. I didn't feel like he was just ready to be a parent and a boyfriend or a committed partner or a husband. And so when we had that moment, I didn't trust it. I didn't trust him and I didn't trust myself with him at that point. And so I went to that apartment. I saw where he was living. He had the girls there and I picked him up. Girls as in more than one? We have a daughter together and then he got married and had a baby with somebody else. Okay. And what's their age difference? About three, three, four years.

14:59He's probably right. I probably wasn't a person that he could have opened up to. He probably could since that. But even though we were talking and spending time, I was very cautious. Talk to him. It's a little bit more challenging when we are doing it on a screen. You can just literally talk to him across the screen if you want. You know, we'll get used to it. And then what happened? just give me a quick sense of I understand you've gone years together years apart together apart there's a lot that brings you back each time yeah and there's a lot that pushes you far away from each other each time absolutely I think that I can definitely say I've always been sort of an immature person like as a child or whatever, I've always just been like, in my mind, life was just like a game, one big party, just have a great time.

16:04And then one day it's over. In my mind, I never really considered what it would even mean to grow up and become an adult or any of that stuff. So once we had a child, it was like adulthood and fatherhood and all these things were just thrust on me that I had no idea what was going on or how to prepare or even how to adjust while I was in this situation. I can definitely say it's affected my relationship probably with both of my children because of the way that I just wasn't ready. And a lot of times I doubted my own capability to become ready. What was your experience with fatherhood? None. Meaning?

16:51None whatsoever. My father left before I was born and I saw him maybe, maybe I would say maybe four or five times as a child. And were there other people in the extended family? Parental figures? It was mostly women. It was my mom, my grandmother, and I would probably say those two probably had the biggest hands in my development as a child. As a child or also in the making of the man? In the making of the man, I don't know if anybody's had an influence on that part. I think that part just got hammered by reality into what you see before you.

17:49And where are we at in the making of the sculpture? It's definitely not complete. We're kind of working with what we got now. It's like, you know, I'm flawed, deeply flawed. But I think that in some ways, I'm more open to see my shortcomings. than I have been in the past. There were times where my mother would tell me about how I was parenting my kids and I didn't want to hear it. But now I understand a bit more about where I was and how involved or uninvolved I was with my kids. Your partner, how do you call her? Your wife, your girlfriend, your partner? My girlfriend. Your girlfriend. See, I asked you, if you turned this wild card into a wild dream, what would you want for today?

18:37and you said, I would want to at least be more open. We started okay on that. I'm going to go back to that first question because I want to ask it to her as well. What else would make this a wild dream? And I'll tell you why I'm asking it because I think it's important for you to know. I have a feeling that you have given a lot of space to the darkness, to the I'm flawed, to the I'm immature, to the I don't know, to that side of the story. Now you can be flawed and likable, which is part of why she's still here. But there's a whole other way of telling the story that does not get that much airtime, which is not based on what I'm not, but maybe based on what I want, what I can be, what I aspire to, what I want to reach for, rather than what you can't ask from me, what you shouldn't rely on me for?

19:46What would it be? Well, that is a very hard question to answer because I guess I beat myself up a bit. I I want to be able to give more give more freely of myself ideally and not just about necessarily opening myself up but removing those blocks removing those those blocks that say these are all the reasons why I can't exactly what you said just trying to find a way to remove those blocks and being more freely open to giving my love and feeling secure in that. You talk about this all the time, the safe space part and getting myself to feel secure in that. What needs to happen for that? I don't examine this enough to really understand what it would take.

20:58I think that I'm just afraid for whatever reason to give in to that. The time you gave in to it is that moment that you just had before when you remembered calling you mom.

21:16Yeah. There's a part of me that just I don't, I dislike feeling that way. Even while I was telling the story, I fought to not feel that way in that moment because it just feels, sometimes it just feels silly to feel that way. Like it's just a weakness. Maybe I wish I could just never had to experience that at all. I'm kind of ashamed of it. So when I'm scared, when I feel low, when I feel all alone, when I feel lost, I fight it I blame myself I forget the politics of the world and what it does to black men what it does to me what it does to us I forget the larger story and it just becomes me and my flaws and if I can't accept those feelings in me I also can't respond to her you're shaking your head yes

22:28and I project the primary story with her is don't count on me here and there every once in a while but don't really rely on me don't count on me if you don't have expectations then I can't fail you yeah

22:52yeah yeah yeah I think that that's exactly what it is it's I don't want people it's like I don't want you to expect too much from me because I don't want to have to expect too much from myself or have to count on myself for these same things because I think I always want the room to give myself an excuse to say, well, that's why that didn't happen. I ultimately have this, I think it just boils down to this issue with failure. I don't want to put my effort into something and then fail because it just kills my confidence and my abilities.

23:49We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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27:55Tell me, or tell him actually, what did you hear? What did you understand that he said? I just want him to hear himself back. that word hyperfocus. He's kind of obsessed with the pain. We talk a lot about not having the tools to get out of a rut or an idea or a circumstance or a situation. And so I just, even though he's doing better, he's done lots of really great things to make sure that he's never in that situation that he was in that apartment again. but sometimes I still see and what I still hear is that he's just kind of in survival mode like I'm only really gonna do and commit myself to what I control what I can control and because I have you know these kids I'm always going to make sure that my kids are taken care of they're always going to have food they're always going to have a place to live but that's all I can handle.

29:02And then beyond just basic survival, I don't know that he knows how to connect in a meaningful way with me or with the girls. And sometimes he's really closed off and we just kind of orbit and exist around him. Why does it look like he goes into silent mode? it's like he's he's very quiet it just kind of comes off of him like don't talk to me don't don't engage me in any way whatsoever and sometimes he's not like that like sometimes you can talk to him but you just never know and so you have to be really kind of careful so like i caught him on a good day it has been months it has been months since he has you know we talk and even I mean you know we'll laugh sometimes but like I almost feel I don't know who this man is he's just been more willing to touch me he kissed me and like that hasn't happened that hasn't happened in months and so I don't I don't know I don't know why you I mean I know why you do it I don't know why you're like this right now because nothing happened but I'm not different you know the girls aren't different but you are like you're open and available and i don't know why and i don't know how long it's gonna last i've just been feeling different like i just have like maybe the past three or four days just i'm feeling completely different it kind of makes me a little worried because i just it makes me feel like I'm not in control of myself or something.

30:54It's just, I don't know. I'd rather feel like this than the way I was feeling. But your sense is that your mood changes. You don't know why it suddenly goes on full stop and why it suddenly gets energized again and it comes and goes regardless of anything you are aware of? You're the professional, but I will say this. So sometimes I think that this part comes from like the way my mother was when I was a kid, because when she would come home, a lot of times we dreaded her coming home because she was going to be in a bad mood. And I think that I had just kind of conditioned myself to feel that way.

31:45So there's really no one's done anything wrong. Yeah, sometimes I have some mess, but who cares it can be cleaned up but I walk in and I'm like I'm just gone I I have to I even talk to myself like don't be a butthole when you come home like I'm not yelling or screaming or throwing stuff or anything like that but I'm just like I'm like like she says it comes off of me I'm shut down and you know one word answers to every question how was your day fine you know When you described your mom coming home, you saw it. Oh, yeah, for sure. What did you see? What would you see? In our old house, we had this driveway.

32:26And you could hear my mom. She drove a Buick for a long time. And you could hear that car struggling to get up the driveway as she would come up. And that was the sound my sister and I heard. And that was just the sound of dread. Get up, clean everything up. If you haven't cleaned up, last minute checks to like look everything over, make sure it was all in place because we knew that. And it almost didn't matter. We knew she was going to come in a bad mood, but we didn't want her to come in and like yell and start fussing. So as long as we avoided that, that was our ultimate goal. So that sort of situation, it was horrible.