Should I Have Another Baby?

0:01In this following session, we discuss assault, and I want you to know this before you listen.

0:13Hi Esther, I am coming to you with a question at an interesting time in my life. I am mother of two beautiful children, three and a half year old twins, and I am finding myself and have been finding myself for a long time longing for another child. This longing is complicated by the fact that I had a very scary and intense and dangerous pregnancy with the twins. A very traumatic birth that has left real scars behind and a period immediately in postpartum where my children were born with health problems that thankfully have been resolved. But there were a few months in the beginning where we didn't know if one of my children in particular, if it would have an impact on their length of life.

1:12And there were a lot of doctor's appointments and things to figure out related to these health issues that the two of them had. And my question is about how can I move forward with another pregnancy without bringing in a wish that is not fair to a new child, that I would have a different experience this time, that I would have a more positive experience, an experience that would be in any way joyful because there was really no joy. or all of the joy was clouded out by fear in my pregnancy, birth and postpartum period. And not putting that wish too much on a new life because I don't want to have a child just to try and have a redemptive experience because that's not a reason enough to bring a soul into this world and it's not fair to that child.

2:06So how do I tease out that I think natural hope and wish to have a joyful pregnancy, birth, or postpartum period without making the wish so big that if it doesn't happen, it will crush me. Particularly as I am somebody who experienced abuse and neglect in my childhood and youth. And I've always wanted to be a mother and in some ways always wanted to create the family I never had. And I feel so grateful that I get to do that in so many ways. but my process of becoming a mother was just horrible. It was a nightmare. How can I reconcile all these things together and move forward? Because I do want another baby.

2:54I would love any help that you have or any thoughts about this question. Thank you so much.

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4:06You're reliving it, huh? Yes. Sure. We don't often talk about it, so it's a new experience in some ways to hear all three things put together. I speak with certain friends about certain snippets of it, but I don't really ever talk about the whole journey that way.

4:33And when you say the three parts, for you they are? pregnancy the birth and postpartum i had in my head childhood

4:49motherhood and redemptive experience that's very interesting that's where i went it's not any more right than yours but we can it's interesting that it parallels. Because those are the three things you don't often put together either. Right, that's true. Are you making this decision alone or is there a partner in your life? I have a wonderful husband and he's the father of my twins and we are hoping for a third but we're both very scared. And he is part of the decision or he says you decide or you say I decide. No it's it's a decision we make together because it's important to me we make all our decisions together and especially one like this.

5:51Is it purely an emotional and an existential decision or is there a medical element involved there too? There's a medical element. So you're taking a risk? Is that what? It's hard to say. I was given some bad advice during my pregnancy because the condition I had is not very well understood. And later on in the pregnancy, see, I got better advice. And that helped. And if we choose to have another baby, then we would be using that advice moving forward. A doctor I saw said I should refuse the medication they were prescribing me. And I was very scared. And so I listened to the doctor. And I kept landing in the hospital until a doctor asked me, why are you not taking the medication?

6:47And I told her and she said, you have to take this medication. It will save your life. And when I started to take the medication, things got better. So, and it's also hard to say if the medical issue I had was related to the twin pregnancy or if it's something I would experience again. I had a condition called hyperemesis gravidarum. It's when you cannot stop vomiting. It's not morning sickness, It's important to say, but it's very dangerous because some people are vomiting up to 100 times a day. You lose massive amounts of weight. It's very, very serious, and it's very horrible because it's not just the vomiting, but the 24-7 nausea.

7:38I couldn't eat. I couldn't drink water. I was bedridden for months. I couldn't work. It's really a devastating condition. And there's not a lot of information. And people think you're pregnant, so you're vomiting. That's just par for the course. And part of the concern is that this may reoccur? Yes. No, no, it's very serious. And then what happened after that? What was the postpartum piece about it, or the birth piece? All connected or different things? A bit different. The birth was tricky. I was alone when my water broke. My husband was traveling for business. My sister was here, but it was during COVID, so she wasn't allowed to come to the hospital.

8:24When I was admitted, they put me in a room on a hospital gurney, and there was just a water basin and a window with bars on it, and they left me alone for about six hours. Oh, my God.

8:43And the only time... Sorry. No, no, no, no, no. There's nothing to be sorry about. The only time somebody came in was when a midwife came and said that the woman next door was actively pushing and she wasn't even being as loud as I was and I needed to be more quiet. And then she left. and then they came back after about an hour and told me I was getting an epidural and that the anesthesiologist was here and I needed to get this epidural right now and after I got the epidural my husband was allowed to come in and things were going well and then all of a sudden things changed and they said that I had a fever and they drew blood and said I had an infection and the baby's heart rates weren't good and they needed to perform a C-section, which I thought, do whatever you need to do.

9:40I mean, take them, it's okay, via C-section. And when they came out, I was overjoyed. But when I saw one of my children, I really just thought, something's not right. She was so small. She was more of a fetus than a baby.

10:03And they took us to the room and they looked at her and they said, she's very small, but because of a few grams, she doesn't have to go to the NICU. And I was shocked. I was so happy that she could stay with me and they could both stay with me. And when we went to leave the hospital, they performed some tests to make sure the babies were okay. And they found that my son had a heart condition. and they told us the name of it and I'd obviously never heard of it before and I just asked is it fatal that's all I wanted to know is it fatal and the doctor very flippantly said uh I mean not at the moment but we'll have to see how it develops and I really thought it was gonna pass out and they told us we could leave the hospital but we had to come back in a few days to see a cardiologist for him.

10:59And they didn't give us any information. They told us not to Google it. But they said, here are some things to look out for that would be indications that your son is having a heart attack if he cries a lot or if he sweats when he nurses. And we're first-time parents to twins. We were already so overwhelmed. And I never knew. because to top it all off he had colic so whenever he would cry I never knew is he crying because he's hungry or because he's tired or because he's dying he's dying yeah oh la la

11:43and we were different cardiologists we were getting referred to different specialists every week, I think. And everyone was giving us different information. So we'd get some good news and then we'd get some bad news a few days later and then some good news. And it wasn't until about three and a half months after the birth that a cardiologist said, we can pretty much definitively say that, yes, he has this defect that needs to be monitored every few months, but there's no reason to think that he won't live a full and happy life.

12:25And that really was one of the best days of my life. But it was also after three and a half months of terror. As you're telling me this medical trauma, I kept thinking this is part of what you mean when you say I don't want to put all of this on another child and say redeem me from this terrible experience exactly can I ask you have you done any EMDR I haven't but I'm very interested in it you have to go you really do because it's so visceral on you. It's three and a half years later and it's like breathing and oozing out of you. It's vivid. And you can soften this. Okay. And no talking, just as talking, will be sufficient.

13:35Basically, there are experiences that are almost impossible to put into words. They are visceral. They are physical. Your whole body is reliving this as you're telling it to me. And something in the switching of the laterality between the two brain hemispheres unlocks this that is trapped in the amygdala. And basically, you speak while you're being stimulated in this bilateral way. and it unlocks something. That's about as mysterious and unarticulate a way I can be about it. But I sometimes know things that are useful even when I don't fully understand how it works. But whoever is the practitioner will be able to give this to you in a much more articulate way than me.

14:35Okay. But don't stay like this. I won't. this is kind of the start because for so long I just had to attend to them yes I had to get through it yes and it's really now starting to come up because you were in doing fixing and saving mode and so you didn't think much about you and what's happening to you and all energy geared onto them you know but this wish of having another child is a form of thinking about you if you spend three and a half years thinking what do they need what do they need when you say i want another child you basically are allowing yourself for the first time to say what do i need oh that's interesting you know what do we need you and your husband but basically It's like for the first time, you're switching the arrow from caring for them and attending to all their needs to saying, and now me.

15:41Right. But then you're looking at this and now me and you're saying, what does it represent? Am I putting myself at risk? Am I putting my kids at risk? Am I putting a tremendous amount of weight? and tacit expectations onto this other child to give me the experience that I feel was robbed from me. Exactly, yeah. And I don't want to do that. Am I being ungrateful for what I have? Why do I need more? We finally are coming to a place of some equilibrium. What the hell am I doing? What is it about me that suddenly, you know, At the moment, peace and balance and equilibrium can begin to settle. I suddenly want to create a whole other upheaval.

16:33Is this wishful thinking? Is this actually realistic? Some people will tell me every pregnancy is different. You know, it's not because it went totally south one time that the next time is the same. But I'm going to hear advice in every direction possible. every person in their experience is going to tell me something different but these are my questions but these are also I think your questions of yourself yeah absolutely

17:07we have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes

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20:56And I say, in between is also a period of you saying, okay, I can focus on myself a little bit. again and are there other ways I can do so to start so that I loosen the burden on this unborn child I don't just feel like the only thing I can ask is the family I never had I can have more wishes. This is not a bad one, but I can have other wishes. And the only way to repair isn't just in this way. I may still end up in the same conclusion and say, I'm going for this. And we will decide and we will consult and do all the things we need to do. But there needs to be, from what I'm imagining, a little bit of a space in between.

21:54Right. Yes. maybe space for you and your husband yes maybe space just for you maybe space for you and the people who are important in your life that are not your children so that you recreate a more diversified focus and you will find some of the answers to this question you may also say we want a third child but it doesn't have to come through me there's many many ways to have another child in the family right but right now it's tight right it's i had a shitty family i dreamt about having the repair family i thought i was on my way it totally derailed i feel robbed and pissed but i couldn't even think about that because i had to show up i'm totally spent And now that I'm completely spent, I finally can think about having the child that was going to give me the story that I didn't have at the beginning.

23:03Yeah, but I don't want it to feel that way. And it feels like a real betrayal of the two children I have and the experience that we had. I don't want that to be. But when you tell me the story as you do, it has that element. I felt it too. You feel it too. we're both hearing the same thing. Yeah. They're wonderful, they're wonderful, but they didn't give me X. Not they didn't give me, the experience didn't give me. I think I would, it's interesting, when you said that I thought, no, I didn't give me X. It feels like a failure on that part. Okay, okay. Good correction. Important correction. But, it's not almost, it almost feels like, It's not clear if she's giving herself something or is she punishing herself for not having succeeded at this thing.

24:00Something is harsh in there. Yes. Yes. You know? That's true. Yes. You have post-traumatic stress. Okay. You know, you have PTSD from this thing. It's not a word I throw lightly. Okay. It's interesting. Yeah. Because when you tell me this thing, you're not telling me because you remember it, you're reliving it. You can't even tell it to me in big brush strokes. You give it to me blow by blow. And you're going from one room to another and from one image that is carved in your memory and in your body to another.

24:40That wasn't intentional. No, that's what PTSD does. Right. no no absolutely not I know that it's like every detail matters in the story right that is to me one feature there are many features to PDSD but this is one where you say wow it's like that's it you're in for the ride and you're going to get the story as it unfolded because she's reliving it moment by moment. And that tells me we need some help here first. I should say that this idea of having another child is not something we would do for at least another two years. I mean, this is something that's really, but I want to start now. I can feel that it's coming now and I've noticed it, that I want I don't want to walk around with all this pain and I want to give myself to give my husband and me the room without a ticking clock on this to work through it and how can we work through that when it just feels like it And I just, I feel a lot of, still a lot of guilt and a lot of shame about it.

26:11Because I feel like, I do feel I'm grateful. I have two healthy children and we made it through. And I had a doctor say to me at one point during the pregnancy, other women would kill for your problems. And that's made it really hard to start to work through it because whenever anything would come up while I was going through it, other than having to, for the reasons of just having to function and get through, I just had that refrain in my head, other women would kill for your problems, other women would kill for your problems. Wow. And how does, where is your husband at with this hair? Because he lived it with you, you know?

26:49Yes. He's a lot better at setting boundaries than I am. And he is scared for me, I think primarily what it could do to my health. I think he, well, I don't think, I know he's worried that I have a tendency when I want something and I've decided I really want something not to stop. And that concerns him, understandably, concerns me too. and I think he has said that he could absolutely imagine a third and before we had the twins, we had talked about three children, four children, we wanted a big family. So I think the wish is there, but he also has real fear about what it could mean and I think we would have to have a really very honest conversation about what are our boundaries, at what point do we make certain choices What choices are they?

27:48What can we live with? What can we not live with? I wouldn't say that I was cavalier at the pregnancy with my life, but I was certainly convinced that I could get through this if I just buckled down and got through it. But now we have two children and they need their mother. And that's a different situation. It probably shouldn't be because my life is valuable whether we have kids or not. Now, if you allow me, I would like to change something in how you described him. Okay. When you say he's better with boundaries than me, I would say he seems to be better at protecting you than you know to protect yourself.

28:36Oh, Esther. Yeah, that's accurate. Yeah, that's correct. yeah you think because you had to fight through some pretty bad stuff that you can muscle through anything yes and not just from the pregnancy but from my life before yes I was talking about your life before I don't know anything about it but it doesn't look like it was charming yeah and so there are two stances in your life. You're either strong and victorious or you're weak and you get trampled on. Yes, yes. That's correct. What do I need to know about this for our conversation? I'm aware that we're only meeting once and not everything needs and can be told.

29:39but I have a feeling that that stuff is part of why the wish to have another child why the wish to show that you really can there's a defiance in this yeah for sure there's a desire and there's a defiance yeah I hadn't even thought about that but it's absolutely true yeah I think the best example of that would be at some point in my life, there was somebody in my life who was hitting me pretty viciously, pretty regularly. And it came to a point where I thought my life is really in danger here because this person is using me as a stress release valve. It's not based on any behavior. There's no rhyme or reason.

30:27There's an enjoyment to it.