The Chronic Philanderer

0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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1:49To be honest, I'm waiting for him to make a decision because obviously I can't. Nine months ago, this woman found out that her husband had reconnected with a childhood girlfriend in his hometown, where he went to visit his ailing mother. And I remember that first night I went to the bathroom and I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, listen, I was like, we're good. You've got this. This is fine. I have this under control. It's been nine months that they're grappling with the ravages of this infidelity, but also decades long of acting out on his part, proceeding. Little did I know that he had been going online to all these different chat rooms.

2:35At first, I kind of wanted to seek the solace of strangers. It happened over time. A decision needs to be made because the other relationship is not over, contrary to what the wife thought. But she wants him to make the decision, and his decision would be not to make a decision. He's still just hedging his bets all the time. He won't commit.

3:12I feel like sometimes I'm living with like a time bomb. He's been telling me he loves me and he wants to be with me. This is where he wants to be. And at the same time, he's still been in communication with this other person. And I don't trust. I don't trust what he's telling me. Like over the past nine months, he's said these same things. and saying these things to this other woman at the same time. And he's like a chameleon pleasing whoever he's with based upon what he needs. So, you know. Tell me, that sentence that you just gave me, he pleases everyone he's with, that's new or that's the man you've known?

3:56I think he, yes, he's definitely a perfectionist and definitely someone who goes above and beyond to make people happy or to do well in work. He's there 110%. And I've always known that. I've always seen that. I've loved that. But I didn't know what disappointment it was giving him maybe internally when he wasn't pleasing somebody. He can't let it go. He can't let it go. That it? Yeah, I think that's probably accurate.

4:42Say more. She knows you well, but say more. I grew up and it was just my mother and I. And I think I was always in a position of having to prove. I think I was very, I was driven early, almost to kind of prove that I more than belonged. I very quickly get a sense that this man has a story. And he repeats the story to himself. The child of the single mother, the only child of divorce in his school. But at the end of the story, he still doesn't really understand why he's doing what he's doing.

5:33You know, I can't, my behavior is not completely explainable. And I don't know if it was a midlife crisis or kind of what was happening. And we're so much farther along in these nine months. She says in these nine months that I've said certain things and then done things to negate the things that I've said. You can talk to her. And I think in many ways I've been trying to figure it out, but on my timeline. And while I've been trying to pull away, I haven't pulled away exclusively, been able to really cut the cord. But I'm, you know, I'm working on it. And I know that doesn't sound right, but it's really all I could do at this time.

6:24No, I don't think so. No? No. I think part of why you seem to be hitting a wall, see, is because there is a kind of a manifest story. but then there's a latent story and that one isn't clear to you. On some level, you don't really know what's happening to you. You know what you've done but you don't really know why what. Why now? How come? And I wanted to ask you first, what have you understood so far? Of my actions? Of you, yeah. Of your actions and most importantly of what your actions tell you? You know, I think there was such a curiosity at the beginning in the chat rooms. You know, it was such a curiosity.

7:18I loved getting to know other people. And I described it as fishing because I was basically fishing to try to gather their attention in these chat rooms and how you could do that. And even though there was a sexual component to it, I learned a lot about human behavior. I really did. And what did you learn about you? That I was likable.

7:46That there was something of value, that people liked me. You know, that women liked me. You know, and I think along... Because, because, slow down, slow down. Because before that I thought and felt what? What? Alone. More alone. More isolated. And I thought of myself as what? And you can connect that guy with the teenage one and with the younger one. I am likable. And I am not what I've always thought of myself, which is what?

8:32I rub people the wrong way, even when I wasn't trying to rub them the wrong way. I just rub people the wrong way. And in the chat rooms, I might be worth spending a couple minutes with, you know? But it's low risk. Sure. What other tricks did you try? Hmm. I stumbled on this name dopamine in there. And I thought that was ironic. And I, you know, reached out, said something that I probably thought was semi-clever. And she responded. And I was really trying to stop the whole process at this point. I really was. I didn't want to have anything to do with it. Are you okay listening to this? Yeah, I mean, I want to listen.

9:32You do? Yeah. Because I can also take a few minutes alone with him. No, because I know about this person and I need the truth. It's interesting, right? Because what I'm hoping to do with him and with you is to get away from the truth about the other people and get closer to the truth about him. I know. If he starts to talk now about the women, to me, it's a deflection. I agree. I agree. So as seductive as it may be to hear about her and to think you're going to find something there or he's going to find something there, but I hope that you leave here with things that you haven't yet talked, felt, or thought about.

10:29And I think you may get more from understanding the meaning than the facts. And some of this is going to be for you to not fall into your typical stories. If you just tell it as the next anecdote, you won't learn anything new about you. and this is true for all of us we have a way of thinking about ourselves we have a way of understanding ourselves and then we pile up stories that come to confirm it but the truth doesn't lie there and the understanding doesn't lie there you may stay in this marriage you may leave this marriage and you won't have understood squat the issue is not can you make a decision You don't know what the decision is about.

11:18It is about the marriage and not the marriage, but it's also about what happened to you. And with the latest woman and the latest installment, but also throughout your life. And this I say to you too, you kind of organize yourself around, we must make a decision. Does he stay in the attic or does he come back to the bedroom? Yeah. Tell me something. What happened in the car?

11:49One part of his story that did seem to matter a great deal was a recent interaction with his teenage daughter in the car.

12:02They made a crack about me not being their real father. Who is they? My children. Where I felt super disrespected, which I haven't done well with my whole life, obviously. That would be a trigger point for me. And they said you were not their father because? Well, because we had problems having babies and we needed a donor. And we told them at a very early age, in an effort to be healthy, that, you know, mommy and daddy needed some help. And so, you know, I went through two surgeries and we really, we did everything we could. We went to the top of the line and I had a backup. I had a donor backup.

12:46Did you tell the daughters how hard you worked on this? How much you tried? They know all of that. So basically, they knew that this is your Achilles' heel. Yeah. And if they really want to get at you, this is the thing they need to throw at you? Pretty much. It's just words. It's like they understand. Do you know what I mean? They understand nothing. Right. They don't understand how much it hurts him. No. I can't. And they don't understand how much this may also be at the core of a lot of your acting out. Yeah. The friend, the woman I grew up with in my hometown.

13:32You know, it's ironic that she has two boys. I also think it's ironic that she's a single mother. Of course, not ironic. I know. It's extremely well chosen. You need enough elements to be able to repeat your story, your origin story, and maybe have the opportunity to play with it and change it. Yeah. But do you know what you're trying to change? Myself? I don't know. But what specifically? In some ways I can actually rewind history for me, right? I could be there for someone who seems really appreciative, too. You know? I mean, one of the things I got in trouble with her is I stumbled on this book.

14:26He's a runner. And I sent him a book that I knew that he would really, really like. because I wanted him to know that I was watching from far, that I cared about, that I mean, that I wanted him to know that he was valued.

14:52I have a sense that what I've just watched is a very old dynamic here, whereby he highlights how the girls make him feel that he's not legit. By throwing at him the genetic factor, they can really go and say, you're not my dad. Something that kids often will say to parents when they're upset. But when there is a piece of truth to it, some element, even though he's raised them from day one, they really know where they're aiming. And then the mother tries to defend the girls by just saying, it's just words. The girls don't understand what he's going through. But in that moment, maybe the mother doesn't either.

15:32And so he experiences that as a microaggression. He doesn't say it. I'm not even sure it's conscious. And then when he cries about how he was able to be so kind to the son of his lover, who doesn't question his DNA, and so his competence and his legitimacy is intact, then he's basically firing back a microaggression at the wife to say, here I may be incompetent, but there I'm deeply appreciated.

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19:25You have two girls. They still need you. They need a father to really throw himself into them. I know. I just can't change them. You know, the little ones. But you're not supposed to change them. I can't even. I have to wait for them to come to me. You know? Why is that? They don't want to talk about it. No, no, no. Don't put it all on them. I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure. I'm tough on them. And I'm tough on them. I want them to be great. I want them to apply themselves. So you're replaying the not enough, prove yourself? Yeah, I guess so. That's the only way I knew how to get there. And they love him so much.

20:19And it kills me that he, that, it just kills me. But there's like, they're all like this with each other. All of them in different ways, but the three of them are like this with each other. Not that we go off on our own trips. We did that. We used to do that. Don't argue. Listen for a split second. I'm not saying that there's not moments. But I think there is some wall or something where I think the older one is more mature, more articulate to be able to not be afraid to say what she feels. And she will be very direct about how she feels. And she's not afraid to challenge you. No. The younger one, though, hasn't found a voice yet.

21:05And she's in that awkward age where she doesn't even understand what her voice is. I think the younger one doesn't talk because everybody else does the talking for her. She also has her escapes. And that's why she escapes. Well, she has these darn devices when she watches her repeated television shows. It's easier. It's easier. She doesn't have to fight with them. She can think what she wants to think about those shows and not have somebody else tell her, no, you're wrong the way that you're thinking. One moment you get over-involved and you want to control the whole thing, and the next minute, because you don't succeed at it, you say, fuck it.

21:49That's exactly what happened. I've had it. I'm out of here. And then on occasion you think, no, I'm not going to do what my father did. I'm not going to abandon my children. Right. But then you say, I want to be rewarded for that. And they have to make me feel good about the fact that I didn't do what he did. Right. Yeah, that's right. And because you're not doing well at home, you find yourself another family where you think you can come in as the shining prince. Yeah. And if I can't help my daughters, I'll help those little boys with whom you create this kind of overlapping identification. I once was that boy.

22:33And you confuse realities. Right. And I feel to that end that I'm being where someone also truly needs me and also understands me as well, right? I mean, I'm just, I'm not, just bear with me here as we go into this. I mean, I'm not trying to be hurtful. But I think there's a sense of, you know, you say people have responsibilities, right? And I know I have my responsibilities with you and the girls, but I feel terribly guilty having entered her life in such a way. I understand that really makes you agree. But listen, listen, listen, listen. She's got a family out there. She's got plenty of people to take care of her.

23:18She does. She's been taking care of herself and taking care of those boys and doing exactly what she wanted to do and making her choices way before you came into the picture. I know. And if you kind of can't, you've got to kind of understand that. Because I'm actually not here to kind of let you just go and live out your other reality. I know. That's the bottom line. I know. I've kind of had enough with that. I've been very, like, forgiving. I've been very patient. Very patient.

23:54But you say there's a decision to make, it's time to either actually put the work into this and figure this out, or just go, so then I can go live my life.

24:07He ain't going to make a decision. You're going to make the decision. I know that. I know. I know that. And you're going to have to accept that, you know, the way this ends goes is I want him to make the decision so I don't have to be the one that is responsible for breaking up my family. Let him do the dirty job it's his doing. And so then you end up sitting and waiting. You could wait for a few years like this. The woman is irrelevant. It's all about him. the test for you is to actually stay in a place where you're not doing so well and make it better rather than continuously seek out places people, women in particular who give you a stage to do many performances Mm-hmm.

25:09I don't want to hurt her anymore. I really don't. I just hope I have enough control to not hurt her anymore. I love her. I think that's what's so confusing to me. I just can't relate to not having control. If you know you're going to do something that's going to hurt somebody, that just don't do it. Like, I just, it's hard for me.

25:42Sometimes it's very hard to understand the logic of if you know it's going to hurt, why do you do it? What he's giving to the little boy inside of him, the affirmation, the importance, the whole spiel, the selfish part for him, in that moment, takes precedence of everything. It's not what he's doing to others, it's what he's doing for himself. Yeah, but then that's like indulgence. Yep. That's indulgence. And you will call it indulgence, and he will think that it is primary food. and that's the piece that needs to come out if this is to move. Not because you have to accept it, but because it needs to be at least properly labeled.

26:39Yeah. Why is the little boy so much the forefront right now? Why is he coming on with a vengeance? Because your mother got sick. Because you're about to lose your mother.

26:58There was a sincerity to this question. Maybe one of the first moments when he stopped and pondered. And as I'm listening to it, it sounds as if I was kind of impatient with him and dismissive. That was really not the idea. It was more just to say, it's so obvious. Why now? But it came out as if I was saying, you don't know that? So obvious? And that's really not okay.