The One Who Stays and the One Who Goes

0:01None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counselling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

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1:35They met in veterinary school and they were five years together where they had very much of a shared reality, both professionally and on a daily basis. I always joke that like if you can get through vet school together you can pretty much do anything. That was basically in the trenches together trying to get through that. I mean we have both been through just kind of very stressful you know veterinary school. It's not a walk in the park. Now he's in graduate school and that has taken him into the field for months on end and And there have been a lot of challenges about how they are both living different realities.

2:18He travels often for his work, usually gone for weeks to months, which leaves me working my full-time job, dealing with all of our animals and the house by myself, which can be really taxing for me. I am extremely passionate about what I do. Every time I get an opportunity to work in Kenya where I work, it feels like a life-changing experience. Really impactful personal growth and opportunity and I have incredibly close relationships with the people who I work with. And when he comes back, he is excited to share this experience that he had, which was so positive for him, but unfortunately was so negative for me that it can make that conversation.

3:11difficult. And it has brought up a lot of other challenges around intimacy, trust, togetherness, and separateness. And around the next developmental question, can we talk about having a child? International travel has definitely featured in the discussion that we've been having about starting a family, or rather the discussion we haven't been having. He is wanting to take that next step in his life, wanting to start a family, and I don't feel ready for that. A few months ago, I brought it up again, and the response that I got was, we can talk about it in October. The target keeps moving. If the answer is no, that's really devastating, but what's worse than a no is just being let on, basically.

4:01Like, there's never any kind of resolution. I feel myself constantly saying, but can you see it from my perspective? Do you understand why I feel the way that I feel? The session was on Zoom because they both claimed challenges around their professional schedules. And there were eight pets that joined us for the session. Guinea pigs, cats, dogs. They were very present. They made noise. They came to comfort. They had the physical experience that I did not have. So when they talk about bringing in a child into the family, it's because they already define themselves as a family.

4:52All right. Give me a sense as to why we are here today and what would make this a helpful conversation. Well, I feel like I could start since I'm the one who did reach out. So I was sort of feeling desperate. Like I don't know how to change the conversation we're having. Okay. Because what we've been talking about in terms of having kids or starting a family, I would say we already have a family with all of our pets, but I would say non-pet family. Are any of them present in our session today? Oh, there's a lot present. Yes. Right here? Yes. There's one there. Okay. I have four in the room. There's a couple dogs down there.

5:40I have a bunch of guinea pigs right here to my left. So it's sort of a zoo. All right. And are they important participants in the conversation about children? I would say yes. I would say yes in two ways. One, I think we've demonstrated an ability to care for animals and be caregivers. But two, it really comes into play when we talk about me being gone for long periods of time, which has been a sticking point of this conversation. So explain just a tiny bit. You travel for work? Yeah, so we both went to veterinary school together. and then she is a clinician. I fell in love with research and specifically working internationally and now I'm in the final year of my PhD and have plans to continue my international vet medicine slash research career.

6:51During the PhD I was basically abroad for two months of the year and it's a bit of a conflict because if I'm successful in my career I'll continue traveling but it feels like it's coming at the expense of starting a family due to the logistical and other difficulties around it so I think that's a big barrier and that is something that the two of you see or that's just your point of view

7:27because you share a lot you went to school together so you you definitely had a very much of a shared reality and in effect you may have had to talk about things less because you were both living some of the same things and the shared reality spoke for itself so you find yourself now needing to communicate because after five years you did graduate school together you are now in a developmental stage that is one of differentiation in which each of you is trying to define themselves you're in a process of needing to articulate your needs, your pursuits, your ambitions, a whole range of things to articulate that are no longer provided by the circumstances of your life alone.

8:23Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. So what about that rang through for you? Well, so I would 100 % agree that us going to school together, that it was very much of a shared experience. I personally have found that in our professional life, things have gotten a little more difficult for us communication wise, because we're both very passionate about our professional lives. And it, you know, it's basically kind of all we do. But I think that like he can sometimes get quite frustrated because I don't participate in as much back and forth and true conversation about his research and stuff because I just don't have the understanding that he does.

9:10So I try to be an active listener and engage when I can, but because I don't have the same curiosity about the subject that he does, I know that that frustrates him. Can I ask you? Sure. You say my interest is there. Does he trust it? it feels like he doesn't okay so that's you see it's less content and topic related and it's more relational what good does it do for you to say i'm really care and i'm interested and i'm an active listener if he doesn't believe it or if it somehow doesn't come true what is it that we are each doing that lends the other person that lack of trust yeah maybe i could just add something because when you initially were saying about divergent paths post grad school that really resonated with me and i think something that's very characteristic of that is the actual experience that I have working abroad.

10:29And it's really meaningful to me professionally, but also personally, living and working in a different culture and having these experiences with my collaborators and also community members who I get to work really closely with. And one thing that happens is I have a really hard time coming back to the U.S. on like re-entry. It's almost like reverse culture shock. And you rely, this is a question, do you feel that you rely strongly on her overtly or covertly to help you cross the bridge and re-enter? Well, I think the issue with that is honestly, I would like to rely on her more, but often what happens is that I feel guilty for enjoying my time there so much because the message that I get is you're finally back.

11:27Hold on. Say it to her directly. Yeah. So when I come back, it's very hard for me to rely on you to help that process because I have a lingering sense of guilt for being gone and also for liking what I'm doing so much while you are having a hard time.

11:57I think the hard part for me is that he enjoys his time. Talk to him. Talk to him. You came here to talk to each other differently. I heard your initial statement. How do we change the conversation between us? It doesn't matter what we start to talk about. We're certainly not going to start talking about the most challenging, which is kids. Okay? Okay.

12:25So when you come back, it feels like we are not good enough. Who is we? We as in me and all of the menagerie of animals. All the animals. That one day, if that conversation of a family is alive and present, there's going to be more than just a me and the animals. And whenever you come back, it just feels like you're so upset about not being there that you're not present with us. like the last time you came back, you didn't even want to give me a hug or a kiss. Like it was after being alone for months. That's what makes it really hard for me is that you come home and you're so frustrated that you're back.

13:18But that's not how you feel. That's how you perceive him. If I understand what you're saying about how you feel, when you come back, I feel more lonely even than when you're gone. Yeah, that's true. For like a week. For like two weeks. But it... And even though it's for... Hold on, hold on. What did you try to do with this? What was this comment about? Meaning to say, I don't stay in that state. It takes me a week or two. It's a transitional state. Right. but another week or two after two months for you it's just two weeks for her it's two three months plus two weeks yeah I think if I can respond to that she was in the middle of something so we're going to let her continue and I'm sure you have responses perhaps this is more about what really goes on for her?

14:34Because you're very busy with what goes on for you.

14:41Can we try that? Yeah. Okay. Go ahead.

14:50It just feels like, again, we're just not exciting enough. I know you have Wanderlust. and that's okay. I think it's hard for me because I don't get that opportunity. I don't have the flexibility to do the stuff that you do. And some of that is because I'm a major provider for our family and our lifestyle. And I feel that pressure of, well, if I'm not working, then these things can't happen. And so I think that's where maybe some of this pent up frustration and loneliness and everything comes from because I it feels like I'm in a constant hamster wheel of my day to day and you get this exciting life where you can do whatever you want and I don't know well I think it's because you can't have your perfect career you know I get to pursue my dreams and your dreams are put on the back burner

15:55it's a striking moment someone has just said i don't feel that we matter and after all that he says it's because you don't get to do what you really want to do that is a response that doesn't really invite one to feel heard it doesn't feel to me that he's truly listening to her to understand what she may be experiencing. I have more of a sense that he's listening in order to justify, rationalize, and that no matter what she's trying to say about how she feels, he comes back with an explanation. And she relinquishes. And I am beginning to experience that it is not a given for her to claim her space.

16:43What she's actually talking about is how she thinks he doesn't value her and he seems to be disappointed that he's home and he seems to be frustrated when in fact what she's really trying to say is I feel very lonely when you're gone but I feel even more lonely when you're back and that is when I'm beginning to ask is this indicative of more this doesn't feel to me like it's just a one-time thing these begin to feel like patterns

17:17well my dreams wouldn't support what we we want to be doing in our life right now right now that's just not in the cards so yeah there is a level of me being frustrated about that i i personally see a lot of our parent dynamics playing out in this scenario You know, growing up, my dad was gone for four months out of the year for work. And that was just normal for me. Can you give me a tiny bit of context for this? So my parents are wildlife biologists. They work in the field. My dad's kind of retired now. But growing up, you know, there were four months of the year that he was in the field, quite far away, at least within the U.S.

18:04and that was just sort of a normal rhythm of life. But I know being gone for him was really difficult and I think he was very lonely and I know he really missed being at home. And you? Me in terms of like that period? No, me. I decided that I was going to do this better and I wasn't going to be lonely when I travel.

18:37actually his question was the one I should have stayed with were you lonely there is a story to the loneliness of the person who is gone and the loneliness of the person who stays and the loneliness of the children who are in the center of this whole thing I do think that there is a dialogue between him and her that is happening but also between him and the boy that he was and maybe between him and his father.

19:09We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

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22:19do you ever miss home when you travel or you're so satiated in your assignment that it feels like it's another world and you don't really know how to maintain the connection yeah i would say that when i'm doing that work i have a really good ability to focus on like a goal I'm like singularly focused on collecting the data, making the connections. Everything is really, really intensive. So what I'm hearing from you is I have no problem being away, but I compartmentalize to such a degree that I don't know how to hold on. You know, your challenge is the opposite of your dad. Your dad couldn't be away.

23:11You can't stay connected. You want a kid, but it's not clear that you will know how to stay connected to the kid who stays back. So you've kind of taken out all the difficult pieces, the loss and the longing you've plucked out and you've kept the adventure. And when you come back, I don't know if you relate to what your wife says to you when she says, there's this weird thing there's something in the two week period that leaves your wife feeling that she pales in comparison and she understands your passion but she doesn't like the feeling that emanates toward her from your passion and when you respond to her you go right back to your passion and I don't know if you ever address that icky feeling that she gets yeah it's really tied up with guilt for me but the guilt is for how much you enjoy being out there or the guilt is for how little enthusiasm you have for coming home because you always talk about I feel guilty about how much fun I'm having out there and I'm wondering where is the reflection on how little enthusiasm to the point where no kiss no hug just kind of let down yeah i have a hard time with that example because the no kiss no hug thing was because i literally lost part of my luggage but how many days did it take you to get to the hug and the kiss after that yeah so don't well i think it happened that day just not at the airport right it was maybe hours later but after not seeing you for eight weeks there wasn't like the excitement running to each other across the terminal i mean i'm being a little dramatic but just there wasn't that moment yeah I think the guilt so there's something I remember from two years ago that really defines it when you called me trying to get the snowblower to work do you remember this so there's a big time difference right I think it's eight hours so it was like six or seven in the morning for you so it was like no it was four o 'clock in the morning for me because I had to go to work at 6 a.m.

25:57Got it. Four o 'clock. Sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted. And so I'm sitting on the phone with you and you are frustratingly trying to use the snowblower to clear our very short driveway, which is something that I would do. And we, of course, learn later that the shear pins are broken. Doesn't matter. Basically, it wasn't working and it wasn't going to work. And so I'm sort of sitting there on the phone thinking, what the heck am I supposed to do in this situation? If I was at home, I would figure this out. And so a lot of that guilt for me is like those things that I would normally be taking care of.

26:38I can't. I am not there to help you. And to me, that's where the guilt is coming from a lot.

26:52I remember that story very differently, but that's okay. No, I'm actually would love to hear what you remember of it. Cause it's so clear to me. It was like on the phone, like shit, like, I don't know how to solve this. I can't do anything. Well, as I said, I remember it being four o 'clock in the morning not seven or eight because it was dark I had the time and our 300 foot long driveway not short driveway that was covered in about six plus inches of wet heavy snow before I had to leave and be gone at work all day for 12 hours and leave our pets alone in the middle of winter. And I was on the verge of tears because I was so frustrated that I was going to be late for work and needing your help.

27:48Yes, there was a component where you could not help me. But I didn't know what else to do. Who was I going to call at four o 'clock in the morning to help me? And that was only within the first couple of weeks of you being gone for the first time. And that for me is what kind of sealed the experience in a lot of ways that this is not fun, which is why I said you're not allowed to go in the middle of winter anymore. Although now I have a plow guy that comes and plows our driveway that I had to find. Well, that's what I was going to say is like the end of that story is you called the guy up the street who runs a plow business and now he just does it.

28:29But that didn't change that experience. Right.

28:38She has now tried three times to talk about her distress in various different forms. First, by making the time accurate. It was the middle of the night. Second, by telling him that it wasn't a short drive, but it's actually a long drive. and third by telling him that the fact that she was able to find someone to help her with the snowblower didn't change her experience emotionally so she's not giving up but she's doing it in a very gentle and a very minor way