The Permission to Be and Not Just the Pressure to Do

0:00Hi, Esther. Since I was a kid, so much of my validation came from titles. Being labeled gifted and talented. hearing I was destined for great things. I did what we were told would lead to success. Go to school, work hard, follow the rules, follow the right path, quote unquote. After college, I became a reporter on television. I thought it would be as exciting as it looked, but it wasn't, and it took me years to grieve that path that I left behind. But even doing the right thing didn't protect me from layoffs, detours, or breakup. The realization that achievement doesn't always bring security or happiness.

0:40My ambition has even shaped my relationships in one. My constant focus on what's next sometimes created a distance I couldn't close. When I'm achieving, I feel validated. When I'm not, I sometimes feel restless and unsure of who I am without something to chase. So my question is, how do I start to separate my identity and of worth for my professional achievements? And how do I redefine success in a way that still feels meaningful without it being the only thing that defines me?

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2:20See you next time.

2:40Anything you want to add, change? No, I don't think so. So then let's start from the beginning of your question, right? Okay. I was raised and told always that I'm gifted, talented, and that I'm going to do big things and I should start to work on it from day one. What's the context to this? I think the biggest context, you know, is for me, growing up in a world where I think I've equated a lot of my value to what I can achieve. But how did you learn that connection? From where? I would say probably starting at home. You know, it's like, you know, being agreeable is the thing. You know, it's like you do well, you get rewarded.

3:32You know, if you don't do well, there's always an expectation that I do well. Was the whole family high achieving or the expectation was put on you? I think the whole family, like my sister was valedictorian. And part of it, too, is I lost my older brother when I was 10. He was seven years older than me, so he passed away. And so a lot of, I think... From? Oh, he was killed. He was shot. He was killed. That's not the same as he passed away. That's right. You know, that's a very different kind of loss. Yeah. And he was killed because what? He was a really innocent bystander. He was leaving work with his co-worker.

4:25He was working at a mall and the co-worker had a stalker ex-boyfriend who was older than her by a significant margin. And yeah, the boyfriend came and killed them both. I guess he was targeting her but my brother was next to her. Oh, la la.

4:43So, achievement after that loss was? Well, I think for me it was always, I saw academic achievement and professional pursuit as a way to sort of work through the grief. As a way to sort of keep people happy. Yeah, people happy. Yeah. Keep people, starting with my parents. Sure. I will give them something to celebrate. And it will ease the pain of the loss of my brother. Sure. Were you aware of that? Was it a conscious? No, not at 10, 11, 12, now older. I can look back in hindsight and think and say that and recognize that. but then it was just you know you get all age you get an award you get something for that but it wasn't conscious at that point it is sort of the expectation i think you know part of it too in this society you know being black in a society you're taught you have to do twice as much to get half as much and so that that pressure as well yes i was about to ask what's the connection for you on a personal level with race i don't want to make any assumptions Yeah.

6:03I mean, I think it's part of it, you know, is there is a compensation for race. You know, there's a there's a pressure to be, you know, you see black excellence and often that's that's sort of a theme. And so you want to be seen as excellent. But a lot of that is external validation. I'm getting to a point now where I don't care as much. But, you know, it was about the next award, getting the job title, going to the best schools, if you could, in order to be seen as excellent and, I guess, acceptable in a lot of circles to a lot of people. But that is not only, by far, not only a personal pressure.

6:43That's a societal pressure. This I need to achieve. I mean, there may be a family layer, and then there may be a personal layer, but there's also majorly a societal layer to this message. I mean, black excellence does not exist with other names in the front like that, you know?

7:09Yeah, I mean, it's really a cultural thing. I think obviously it comes through a history of what we experience. Yes. But there comes a certain pressure with that. And then, you know, where I live. Huge pressure. Yeah, huge pressure. And there's a lot of pushback on what that means. But I think, you know. What do you mean when you say that? A lot of pushback. So some people, you know, push back against this notion of black excellence. Like you can be excellent and not have a master's. You know, you can be excellent and not have a college education. You can be excellent and just have a normal, quote unquote, normal job.

7:42For me, I don't think I've ever had a quote unquote normal job. I've always had these roles that were seen as sort of sexy. Then I was always disillusioned when I got them. Did you see them as sexy or did you see them as fulfilling the requirement? Both. Is that, yeah, both, I think. I won't tell you yes, no. You're describing your life. I'm describing my life, yeah. You know, it's like the job I should like because it looks good. Yeah. Versus I am drawn to this as well. They may be both, but they need to be at least me too. Yeah. For example, I was drawn to doing television because I thought that I was something I was good at.

8:30I was good at communicating. But there was an element of it that was a little bit, there's a little bit of, I think, ego in the best way to say that you want to be on TV every day. you know and so yes it looks sexy but it was also something i knew that i wanted to do but that was also a little bit of something imposed upon me it's like you should do this job you know people thought you know you should be a reporter you should be on television you know coming up i was always on the school news show or something like that you know but when i got in it i was deeply and this is during the pandemic so it was deep disconnection you know during that time and i was like running myself into the ground doing that job and i was It's like, this is not what I signed up for, what I thought it would be.

9:13Do you think it would have been different if you had started at a different time? I did start a little bit before the pandemic a year prior. But even then, I said, this is not it. But the pandemic sort of exacerbated that. And it's not it because of the nature of what you were doing? Or it's not it because it doesn't fix the chronic optimization?

9:39the chronic racial optimization too for that matter that I am constantly under so no job is ever good enough to finally make me stop the race it's like the race for the race yeah I think I have a chronic of a feeling of this is just not enough like I need to do more something's always been I need something that was new something more than this um boredom can be a big part of it so i do think there are a couple of factors so yes the job itself is just burnout central low pay but then also just like okay what's next i have to get to the next place like i'm done living where i'm at now this is too small this is too stressful or too whatever and it's time for me to get to the next point in my life to the next venture.

10:35So even when I was reporting, I was also working on a graduate degree. And most people would say, I don't know, where were you doing that? But, you know, it was like, what's new, what's next? I have to move on to the next thing. So your question is not, what do I want to do? Your question is, how do I create a situation? And can I? Where no matter which I choose, it doesn't stay trapped in the cycle of proving myself constantly needing more because the minute I slow down it looks like I'm no longer in the black excellence trajectory and I have all these enormous pressures on me yeah that's the better frame do you share this with other fellow people all of us that's all of us all of you okay because this is huge you know this is you're not meant to ever i mean not that i don't think you know that but sometimes people have a tendency to keep these things to themselves and then it becomes even further exacerbated because now it's a it's a solitary lament and pressure versus if i come together with other people, my group and other groups, and we talk about these pressures and we talk about us in society, then it's less an issue of jobs and careers and it's really when is enough enough?

12:15So tell me... What's good enough. Yeah. Tell me about the solidarity that you have. I think a lot of my closest friends, we've come to the point even before 30, recognizing I guess again this word disillusionment comes up around society when we say what we were promised you know coming up you go to the right schools get the grades go you know you get the job but that's not the case and I think we've realized that now more acutely now during the pandemic and coming out of that with layoffs and friends I know like myself like nobody would have told me I would have been laid off three times in three years you know in effect because I got all the things.

12:59Or like my friends who've been in similar situations who have been out of work for a year now. But they have all the things, all the degrees, all the connections, and just general. And my friends who've not been in that situation, but who have also had a sort of pressure and really mourn the loss of dreams that they thought they'd have or they're not in a place where they thought they'd be. So, yeah, we have these conversations like one-to-one, but we don't have these conversations like on the open in a group. We're like, Instagram, you know, you're doing fabulous. You're on the trip. No, but at some point, so, you know, as you're speaking, I'm thinking, what does this young Black man, talented and well-supported, expect from this middle-aged Jewish European woman?

13:54What can she bring to him? How can she help him with this dilemma? I'm very curious. What led you to think, you know, I want to discuss this with Perel. Well, I just imagine work. I don't know. You're really insightful in terms of relationships, relationships to the self, relationships to how you relate to the world. And I think over the course of the year, your work has helped me tremendously, not just in a relationship too with myself, but even when I was in a relationship. I remember my therapist told me about your work and how you put language to a lot of the things that I was experiencing during that time.

14:40I was really young when I got in my first relationship. I was 22. And we were together for over five years. And it ended, you know, it was hard, you know, being same gender loving, black, and all these expectations, you know, in my first relationship. So a lot of my achievement also had to do with that too. You were the same age? Yeah. Yeah. About six weeks apart, really. And grew up together. We knew each other for like 20 years. And so a lot of... Still connected? No, no, no, not at all. No. No connection. Not connected, no. Haven't heard from, but a lot of your work gave a lot of language to what I was experiencing at that time, you know.

15:23And it's been a long journey on that front, too. You know, navigating who I am outside of the context of relationship. Especially coming up in my 20s, you know, in college. and then having moved, we moved to a whole other city together and started a life there. There's a huge developmental thing happening then that ends, you know. And so I had to figure out who I am, you know, career. And remember, when the breakup happened the same week, the relationship ended. So I'm like in chaos. The breakup and the relationship ended the same week as? Around the same time. As what? Oh, I'm sorry. The same time I got laid off from my foot for my job so I got laid off the same week um the break I think so it was like that's a week you will remember it's a week I will remember so yeah I um yeah you just give good language so that's why to answer your question but we are trying to put language on pressure is that how you well you know what here's what I'm going to suggest I'm not going to put language we are going to create language together okay because I think it will be more useful to you if we find the right words together and we may change them I may suggest things but I don't think you can talk about the desire for achievement outside of the context of the pressure on black excellence.

17:05If you try to just make it an individual conflict, it's not right. It's not correct and it's not fair to you because it's internalizing an entire system. When you say, I wanted to please my parents and make them feel good to assuage some of the grief that they were feeling, that's personal. That could be anyone's story and anyone's desire. But the pressure to make it, the constant feeling that wherever you are, instantly you need more, lest you become a non-achieving black gay man with a lot of credentials that cannot be separated from the societal and the cultural framework in which it exists and history.

18:18We have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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21:03What do you think of the world so far? That's about right. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that there is the personal and then there is the larger context, sort of the interpersonal structures that we live in. I found myself, I think, to just trying to figure out how do I come of age in this world with all my different identities and how do I fit into the world? Are you in your 20s or in your 30s? 20s. I'll be 30 next year. Okay. Honestly, this is an iterative process. What I am more cautious about for you is that you not translate the pressure into this is boring. This is not what I expected.

21:53I'm disillusioned by the job. and you think that it has to do with the job rather than with an internalized system of pressure because then you're never going to actually enjoy what you do. So you can go to the things you want the most or you can go to the things that you know have cachet and status. It doesn't really change anything. What defines them is, am I holding up to the standard? so I don't look like somebody who's not driven, who's lazy, who's this, who's that, whatever, all the stuff black people have had to hear and endure. I never want to be seen as lazy, that's one thing. Yes, yes.

22:41I never want to be seen as lazy. And I remember, you know, I have had to contend with, even when I was in a relationship, like the feeling that I was putting a lot more energy into my professional life or my pursuits into the relationship. That was a sticking point. This desire not to be seen as like not doing anything. I have a hard time like resting. Anybody who knows me knows I'm always doing something. Yes, but look, a lot of people can say I have a hard time resting. A lot of people can say if I don't do anything, I feel lazy. But it doesn't have the same meaning than when a black person says it.

23:24because there are not many other groups that have had to confront this constant epithet. And so when you say, how do I sit still and be? How do I find legitimacy in just being and not in doing? How do I feel that I deserve a rest? and the whole world was created with a day of rest you know how do I experience the right, the legitimacy how do I experience that entitlement in the good sense of the word to just be in the world without this running drone ruminating constantly in my head not allowing me to take a deep breath in and out and not have any expectation on me and any pressure on me and any rant in my head telling me, get up, do this, that, lazy, that, that.

24:38Firing constantly. And how is not something that I'm going to say something that's going to help you do this instantly. I don't believe that. but there will be a frame where you gradually every time you find this pressure you find a way to actually say I can be I have a right to just be and that in itself is an act of resistance by the way it's not just some statement of well-being yeah and I never understood it when people talk about just be choose yourself what does that mean in this world it means that you feel worthy of your existence even when you're not proving that you deserve to exist is that it that's a good point yeah put it in your own words i'm lending you mine and then you put it in yours the way that i think about this is i don't have to prove myself with my worthiness my worthiness is inherent is a way that I would think about that and it's not something to prove but that's also like for me like do you can you believe this oh god you just said it I can make a mental ascent to it on a on an old level on a mental physical emotional spiritual level can you can you imagine that this is not just a statement because we can say things to convince ourselves when we are convinced we often don't need to say it we live it and I think it's developmental I don't think that you wake up one morning and you have it so say it again

26:37my worth is inherent and I don't have to prove myself to be worthy. Say it again. My worth is inherent and I don't have to prove myself to be worthy.

26:56That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I resonate with that. And I think that applies just in every area. We talked about career, but that's just one symptom or one aspect of a relationship. So that's any type of relationship, whether that's friendships or romantic relationships or family. You feel it everywhere. Yeah.

27:22Did you feel it now when you said it or you just said that makes sense? Maybe I intellectualize too much.

27:37I feel, I mean, I do feel it. So I'm like on a mental, physical, emotional, spiritual level. On a mental level, yes. On a spiritual level, I do believe that, you know, from where my grounding is spiritually. You know, I believe that about everybody, you know. Sometimes it's difficult for me to sometimes even, I can see that in somebody else, but not in myself all the time. And that's also something that I'm trying to also mentally work through. Like, how do I, I can see that, you know, somebody else doesn't have to prove themselves or they have inherent value. They don't have to work harder. But for me, it's like, nope, you have to work harder.

28:14So it is for me what that statement that I made. I'm inherently worthy and I don't have to prove my worth. Do you have close friends? I have a lot of close friends, yeah. Do you ever say stuff like that to each other? Not all the time. No, not all the time. But do you? Sometimes. Because that's one way to have each other's back. When you live in a shared reality, is to remind each other of the things that you know, that you see in the other, and that is challenging for yourself. You know, sometimes I say, if your best friend was talking to you, or if you were talking to your best friend, either way, what would you be saying?

29:05If they say, I can't sit still, the minute I sit still, it's as if I sink in this truth of laziness and of not enough and of what? Fill in the blank.

29:25more tangibly more money not enough money not enough time and i think the that's true the money thing is something that you know we do talk about that all the time you know it's like i went to school i don't have enough money i need to sell my house i need to you know sell my car i need to do all these things so some people don't feel like they have enough love in their lives whether that's romantic or otherwise but it's not enough love or there's not enough support. Those are all things that come up sometimes in conversation. And you? And for me, certainly not enough money. You can only make one more dollar.

30:02And that's that chase of capitalism, you know, that we deal with. I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do. I feel like I'm in a rush. Like, I realize I'm still young and some people might listen and say, what are you talking about? But sometimes I feel like I'm running out of time to do the next thing, whatever that thing is. I don't even know what the next thing is. If you'd asked me five years ago would I be in the position I am now, I would have not believed you. As in? Well, five years ago, I thought I would not be working an office job. I thought I would have been still in TV doing that career path.