Trapped In Their Own Story

0:00What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

0:29Megan Rapinoe here. This week on A Touch More, we're bringing you our live show in Phoenix with WNBA four-time champion Chelsea Gray and the Naismith Coach of the Year, Shea Ralph. Together, we talk about the NCAA semifinals, the crazy activity in the transfer portal, and, of course, the final matchup for the NCAA championship. Check out the latest episode of A Touch More wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

1:00Esther Perel:I just remember her saying like, well, if you knew the truth, you wouldn't even be able to hand it. They've been together for almost two decades. We met each other when we were in eighth grade and we got together our senior year. Pretty much been together ever since. They've been disconnected from each other for a long time. It's always kind of been rocky. It's always kind of had its ups and downs. And I feel like I was one of his priorities. They each are acutely aware of how they wanted something more from the other. More attention. More desire. More affirmation. And after years of complaining about the lack of affirmation, they each found other people to give them the attention they so much craved.

1:53So it was like a total of maybe six infidelities, I guess you could say.

2:01Esther Perel:Mine happened a year after discovery of hers. At that point, I was in such a dark place to hear someone actually tell you that you're good enough. here we are right now almost four years later. They're not in the grip of it, but they are still dealing with everything that led to it. I feel like he's disconnected and he doesn't want to talk to me or he's afraid to talk to me. I keep trying to improve myself to be able to be the person that I feel like she needs. and maybe that's the part that hurts the most is I just feel like I'm always trying to improve myself for her and I just feel like it just never measures up.

2:52I feel like he doesn't like to share things with me, doesn't like to communicate. More so now as the years have gone by, I feel like I withdraw a lot more when I feel him being distant. so if he withdraws you withdraw and when you withdraw then we're just basically like roommates i'd say like we just are parents and there's like no real romantic connection i've realized that i really do need that like i you know but i just don't want it to be fake or forced. On your part or on his part? His part. I don't want to tell him. I don't want to say, you know, I don't want to be the one to say, hey, like you didn't come and kiss me, but yet I still do.

3:48Is that part of a broader expectation that you are to be the pursuer and she can respond?

3:59Esther Perel:I think one line she always uses is like, I shouldn't have to tell you you should know so yeah I think a lot of times it is like she expects me to fully pursue her I feel like I've used the word kind of like shut down it's probably accurate um after like everything that happened I was like well why why would you like open yourself up to that possibility again can I just um ask you for a moment give me a bit of background so I know what we're talking about um well the infidelity on both of us like both of us had affairs but I guess like I've been thinking about it a lot late a lot lately and to me I feel like Like there has been infidelity from the beginning with his porn addiction.

5:06And I don't even know if he considers it an addiction. It was just something, you know, guys do. Like it's just a guy thing. Guys do this. To me, that was betrayal. And I let him know that. and he would just, you know, reassure me that it's just a guy thing. The betrayal for you? Tell me about the betrayal. Him watching porn, him, you know, being okay with it and trying to convince me that it was okay. even though I, you know, voiced to him that I wasn't okay with it.

5:56The betrayal was that he was watching, watching more than you cared for, watching other women and rejecting you, making you feel that there was something wrong with you for judging it or being uncomfortable with it. Where was the betrayal for you? There's lots of pieces to this. So I want to make sure that I really know what you're experiencing. Yeah. I would say him watching it and me feeling like that was what he wanted and I wasn't able to fulfill his fantasies. And part of it was you didn't care for it. you were not at all attracted to the same kind of play you thought he's trying to put a different thing on me that has nothing to do with me what what yeah I wasn't I wasn't ever really into it I just went along with it because I thought that's what he wanted so you know when he would ask we could watch you know I would agree to it and I would feel gross after and because then anytime anything that I would see and then if he would try that in the bedroom like it just kind of shut me down you're shaking your head tell me what you're saying yes I'll just add like if you ever brought

7:31Esther Perel:anything into the bedroom where did you learn that where did you see that what have you been watching what have you been doing you had to keep it very manila because anything outside the ordinary was it would like i think instantly kind of be a trigger for her and she'd start putting up the walls and you could feel that separation of kind of like well now you're kind of like okay i'm going through with this but i really don't want to be here anymore because now I'm thinking about what you've been doing. And what were you into that we're talking about? So I have a sense. I think for her, she came from a very conservative family.

8:11Esther Perel:Mine was a little bit more open. So I experienced sexual images and stuff really young, around eight years old. And I think I pretty much introduced her to all of that stuff. I didn't ever really have anything that was like, oh, that's my thing. like I love that um so anytime you would try to like bring anything to the bedroom and kind of like excited or change it up a little bit I said it was usually met with well where did you see that or where'd you get it from and so you just kind of like learned over the years like yeah like I can play with it up here in my mind but like you can't really act on it but you were eager to bring all kinds of things to the bedroom and less curious about her um no i think at first i was more interested in seeing what we could do together if there was like a lot of like eroticism in there like excitement of like oh like you know because we're both pretty much new to this except for what i had seen and then like instantly though So it was kind of like I said, it was like kind of shut down of, yeah, that's gross.

9:26And like, again, it was something I could play with in my own mind, but it wasn't something I was ever been comfortable with, like bringing back. And that's when you feel that he began to lie? No, I think he, I don't even remember, like when I found out about his problem, his porn problem. But is there an agreement that this was a problem? Or was the problem that you wanted to share certain fantasies with her and that that was not at all what she wanted to explore with you and therefore you took it underground? Where was the problem? He would do it by himself. And he would even say, I just do it for the end result.

10:23The conversation about sex and sexuality instantly devolves in a conversation about porn. They grew up with attitudes towards sexuality that were often negative, filled with shame, filled with guilt, filled with an idea that sex should be preserved for marriage, that it should be missionary, clean. and fertile. It is not unusual for people to grow up with negative messaging around sexuality. For them, it was rooted in their Christian Mormon background. And so much of what they've experienced for years is the consequence of ignorance, negative attitudes towards sex, and the inability to communicate about it.

11:19And so it became a silent sexual rut.

11:26And as far as, you know, not wanting to do things with him, I feel like he was already experienced and I wasn't. I'm wondering if he really had much experience. He had very little experience. He had experience with himself and his own fantasies, jerking off by himself. That is not communication. That is not being with a partner. No, that's not. And he has always said that that was his escape and that was his way of love, to feel love or to feel wanted. He always felt like if somebody loved you, they would want to do that with you.

12:09Esther Perel:My thought was more like, if you really love me, you'd want to be sexual with me. Yeah, but she didn't feel that you wanted to be sexual with her. No, she didn't. You think you were trying to be sexual with her and intimate with her. I understand that. And on some level, it makes a lot of sense. From where she was, you're coming there with your bucket of play that you had done by yourself all those years that had very little to do with her and didn't ask her anything about herself. didn't feel like any particularly curious move on your part um every experience with her was to be with her and i think that's something i tried to explain to you a lot of times it's like you always thought like oh you want me to be like her that looks like her looks like this like no like i didn't i didn't need you to be anyone other than yourself and like the only things i ever did bring in was because like anything i watched was like the only thing that actually turned me on about watching it was like oh i would love to do that with you i didn't ever watch it be like oh i want to do that with her it was no like oh like how great would it be to do that or experience that with you i think that got lost probably somewhere in translation a couple times or maybe you didn't even want to believe that but that was conversations we'd had before yeah so you just watched a sort of like a research project yeah i guess that's the way of looking at it.

13:36Esther Perel:It's just like, that's a new one. That's interesting. I wonder what that would be like. But knowing that I was not okay. Which is why I didn't ever bring it in. No, that I was not okay with you watching. With me watching it, yes. But I think the reason I kept watching was because I was the only place I could live it out. Yeah. I voiced you know, how it made me feel. And he wasn't willing to, you know, stop for me or to even be honest about it with me. Like, I think, you know, if he were to come to me and say, hey, I'm struggling, you know, that would have made a world of difference. it's a sad bind that you both got yourself in because he wanted to share it with you and then once he knew that you were not open to it and turned off by it big time he took it privately in order not to impose it on you and felt okay it'll be my personal sexual world I'll have one world with you and one world with myself.

14:59And he didn't mean to not tell you, but when he told you, there was not a good consequence. So in a way, he may have lied, but there also was a lying invitee. There was a person who said, don't tell me. I want you to tell me, but don't tell me. And then I don't know if he thinks it's a problem. He thinks he found a solution. I kept it to myself. I didn't impose it on you. I didn't ask you anymore any of this stuff. What more do you want? He says, if you had loved me, you would have done this with me. You say, if you loved me, you would have stopped watching porn. Each one said to the other, if you really cared about me, you wouldn't be doing what you're doing.

15:47And how many years of this?

15:49Esther Perel:What are we coming up on? Together? 18. 18? almost as good and I think I don't I don't think he really ever explained to me why he did it I think that's where it to me became the problem I probably didn't even fully understand it at 18, 19 I don't think I had any understanding of myself that deeply and what did you come to understand over time? Growing up like I never saw a lot of examples of relationships really i very early in my life connected sex with love i always felt like nobody was ever going to want to be with me anyway i always i literally i can remember multiple times as a child like thinking i was going to grow up alone i never thought i was going to have a girlfriend let alone a wife like that seemed absolutely impossible to me why so like as a kid i always felt different i don't know the word views i don't know different outside um i grew up in a very interesting family dynamic of i'm like literally i describe it as like being like literally the black sheep of the family um my parents are white all my siblings are white cousins are white like everyone in my family is white and then there was just me and so like as a kid i just i didn't understand why i looked different um just knew that i was and not that my family ever made me feel like i didn't belong or that i was an outcast but i think i just kind of put that on myself just because i look so differently and you start to get friends and they come over and they they see you and then meet your parents and your siblings and stuff they kind of like what what how does this all work?

17:45And so I think at that point,

17:46Esther Perel:then I started to recognize that I'm different. I go to a friend's house and everyone looks the same and come to my house and I'm just like blob. I'm not blob, I'm black, they're white. Yeah, like I'm literally the speck in like the snow.

18:07He describes being one of very few Black people in his entire community, church, and school. And he also describes an entirely white family in which he is the only Black person. the family has organized around a secret so much so that he knows not to ask he knows he's black he doesn't know why

18:49we are in the midst of our session there is still so much to talk about We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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20:12Hi, I'm Brene Brown. And I'm Adam Grant. And we're here to invite you to the Curiosity Shop. A podcast that's a place for listening, wondering, thinking, feeling, and questioning. It's going to be fun. We rarely agree. But we almost never disagree. And we're always learning. That's true. You can subscribe to the Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app to automatically receive new episodes every Thursday.

20:39Esther Perel:There was a scene, like, I can remember being, like, eight years old and watching, like, Beauty and the Beast and hearing, like, the very first opening line of Beauty and the Beast was, like, for who could ever love a beast? And I remember, like, crying in the middle of the movie at eight years old, thinking that that was, like, me. Like no one's ever going to like love me because I'm like this beast. And so when I found porn and everything else, I was like, oh my gosh, like here's, here's the thing where, you know, there's black guys with white girls and everything else. Like there's all these different mixes and anything you can think of, it's there for you.

21:12Esther Perel:And people are just willing and totally into it. And so it allowed me to go somewhere where I could fantasize about being accepted to that level. and so for me it instantly became kind of a place where I could go when I didn't feel accepted when I didn't feel loved don't think I ever had it to a point where it overtook me though to where it's like oh I've got to do what I'm doing multiple times in a day hold on one moment and ask her since she wanted to understand what was this for you ask her how she just heard what you said Out of all of that, what did you hear? You saw porn as love. So to you, attraction, you know, if someone is attracted to you, they, you know, they love you.

22:05Like, to me, that's mainly, like, on a physical level. so but to me like and I don't know if I'm the only one who feels this way but porn is not love it's purely just people feeding others fantasies so like you said you can find anything you want and that's not connection yeah

22:34she began by listening to him and then she brought the focus back onto her experience very quickly. And so as a result, she heard him talk about love, but she didn't hear him talk about the underlying, much more fundamental need, which was to be accepted. When you think of yourself as the beast, you think of places where perhaps there are others like you.

23:16I felt like, and I, to this day, tell you that if I don't feel, you know, connected to you on a higher level, like, you know, a more emotional level, I'm more withdrawn with the sexual part of it.

23:36Esther Perel:when you told me just like after like after the affairs i think we had sex once a few weeks later whatever like and this and you told me then like this is the first time i've ever talked like connected with you when we've had sex and i was like oh my gosh like how is that possible because for me like sex for me then like that was how i was able to connect with you that was a blow to me I was like, oh my, like, how? Like, we've been together at this point, what, 12, 13 years? And, like, this is the first time now after 12 or 13 years that you're saying, like, now I feel connected to you? But that was after the affairs.

24:16And were we spending 24-7 with each other? Freak.

24:21Esther Perel:Freak. Well, for the first few days, no. We were having deep, meaningful conversations. we were connecting on the level that I needed from the beginning. I'm like realizing right now that we kind of went backwards. Like we went, we started with sex and being, you know, that being like number one thing over versus conversation and deep, meaningful connection that I needed. I feel like I was crying out the whole first, what, 15 years of our relationship? Just be wanted by you. Other than sexually. And also sexually because, you know, to me, like you were watching porn, you were looking at the pictures.

25:23to me that just told me that I I wasn't what you wanted I was shut off not that I wanted to be I just I guess in a way I did it to protect myself I don't know

25:41Esther Perel:I think that's part of why like the affairs hurt me so much because like I said because I connected can I ask you to try something because you've just listened to her and she explained to you something very, very important. And if you hear it and you respond the way you're about to do, it still is you with yourself. I did what I did because I felt what I felt because I. And I want you to do the same exercise I asked you to just before. What did you just hear? Because your wife just said something that if you listen to it carefully, you'll actually understand her behavior over almost two decades.

26:43Esther Perel:Yeah, I did hear... One of the things you said that was kind of like an aha for me just now was when you said, I wanted the communication. Like I wanted you to want me, but I wanted you to want me for like the communication. Like I wanted you to want me for a connection, but not in a sexual sense, but like the communication. I hadn't heard it put that way before. Like I'd heard you say like, all I'm good for is my body. And like, all you want me for is this, but I had never heard it or thought of it. Like, I want you to want me for my communication. or I want you to want me for my conversation.

27:24I never...

27:26Esther Perel:Don't know why I didn't like... Did he get it? Yeah. Did I? Yeah. For me, connection, like I wanted, you know, like a friendship and then, you know, like we talk and connect on the emotional level first first. That was your way of showing me that you loved me, but I didn't receive it that way. But you also added, it's not just I wanted you to just talk with me. I wanted you to be interested in me, but you were so busy making sure that I would be interested in you. You were so busy making sure to confirm that you will be wanted, you are lovable, that you didn't realize that you were rejecting her yeah i wasn't ever doing that saying in my own head i wasn't ever doing anything that i i was viewing as like oh i'm choosing this over her but i'm not comfortable bringing that to you for like what it will bring up in you that you know like i'll just do it quietly over here you see you both have been operating from your own internal logic and it's been so powerful.