Wedding Woes About My Mom

0:04My mom and I have gone through many phases over the last 10 years and there's this cycle that typically goes everything's kind of fine. She's doing things or saying things that make me feel uncomfortable or upset but I'm you know dealing with them on my own. I'm not expressing it and then at some point it all becomes too much and it all comes out. And so I say how I feel, that makes her angry. We don't talk for a while. Then we have some sort of resolution conversation in which I feel cautiously optimistic that a different kind of relationship is possible. Then we kind of rinse and repeat. And so when I first reached out, we were kind of at the beginning of that cycle again.

0:52We'd had one of those blowout conversations. and I was just feeling and still am feeling like there's got to be something else to try because I really feel like I'm just running into the same wall over and over again. You know, now I would say my mom and I are kind of back in a peaceful place where we're speaking, but I still feel quite guarded. And so I guess my central question, is there another way to do this? Is there another way that I can interact with her and rebuild this relationship that doesn't leave me feeling either like I'm putting myself in an emotionally unsafe position or I'm ignoring my true feelings of hurt?

1:51Oh, hey. Sorry, love to chat, but I'm busy shopping all the rollbacks and more at Walmart. Grab a what? Cancel that. I gotta grab these big savings on the Walmart app online and in-store, like right now. See who? Nope, unavail. The only thing I want to see are the prices just lowered on tech, home, and all my must-haves. Wait, you want to shop Walmart with me? Alrighty, I think I can fit you in. recommendations can be great maybe someone recommended this podcast and here you are but home projects are a little different if the podcast isn't your thing you might lose a few minutes from your day but if you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your tv you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage i know a guy isn't a good strategy for your home that's why thumbtack works so well.

2:46It matches you with top-rated local pros with photos, reviews, and credentials all in one convenient place. For your next home project, try Thumbtack. Hire the right pro today.

3:14At this moment, what I mainly know is my mom and I get into knots. I get stuck. I don't know what I need to do in order to accommodate her without feeling that then I abandon myself or I stay close to my truth and then I feel like I can't connect with her and I love the rinse and repeat image because what you're admitting is I'm stuck I realize this isn't the way to go about it I would like to find a different route and I'm ready to take the risk because you've reached out twice. So I see that as an invitation to see if there's a whole different way to go about this. But I do need to hear a little more from you and to get a little bit more color to the palace.

4:09Absolutely. Yeah. So I grew up in a very loving nuclear family of two moms, me and my brother. And my parents had a very close relationship. And our family had a close relationship. And their relationship and marriage was really central to our family identity because they were two women. And they were two women having a family in the 90s and they didn't have the legal recognition and protection. And so they really went out of their way as they had to and as they chose to, to be incredibly intentional and devoted to that. And they were together before they had the two of you. Yes, they had been together for a while, maybe over 10 years, I think.

5:13And the each-born child? Yes. And the one that you're having detention with? She is my non-biological mother. When I was 19, my parents split up. And it was, not to be dramatic, but it really was devastating. It really felt like it came completely out of nowhere. where it just felt so confusing and shattering. And for the first few weeks, I wasn't at home during this time, but over the phone, I kept asking, what happened? This doesn't make sense. This doesn't add up to me. And they didn't want to tell me, and they didn't want to tell me, and they didn't want to tell me. And then finally, my mother told me that she'd had an affair.

6:13and they tried for a while to repair the relationship, and this was 10 years ago now. They ended up getting divorced a few years after they separated, and they both have new partners, and it was very hard for me at the beginning of that, and it continued to be hard, and I continue to have complex emotions about it, But overwhelmingly, I'm at a place with my other mom, definitely, and kind of with the scenario really of peace where so many wonderful things have come since then. My other mother's new partner, who I absolutely resented so intensely, and God bless him for his patience with me, is now an incredibly important person in my life.

7:12And what remains is this incredibly difficult relationship with the mother who had the affair. Is that a piece of the story? is the fact that she had an affair, the fact that the relationship dissolved. So it's a piece of the story because the central conflict that kind of underlies all of our issues, it's her refusal to take any responsibility for her own role in what happened. So in her mind, she didn't do anything wrong. You know, this all happened to her. and in her mind she does not have any responsibility in that and at the time I felt very much like all of the responsibility is hers and now I have much more nuance than that and I I recognize that it never is as simple as that and I don't completely blame her at all but she won't recognize her own actions and how they've affected me and And it just always comes back to that for me, where she wants me to feel bad for her and feel the sorrow that she's lost her family.

8:34And I am just like, I just can't, I can't go there with her. Give me a few lines just so I can hear the script. It goes something like, I feel really hurt by everything that happened, and I feel as if you've never acknowledged those feelings and how your actions affected me. And she'll say, well, I was hurt too. I lost my family too. And I'll say, yes, I understand that. but I didn't have any say in it I was the kid in this scenario and you were the adult and it goes kind of back and forth on that where she says well you don't have the the right to be so upset at me I didn't do anything these things happen and she and my other mother don't really have a relationship because my other mother also found it difficult to move on without her acknowledging her responsibility.

9:51And so she chose to walk away. And it's difficult because the jealousy that comes from my mother, who I have a difficult time with, like she's jealous of my relationship with my other mom. She's very stuck in this, like... So let me ask you something. These traits of defensiveness, lack of accountability, justification of one's actions, is that the first time that she acted this way? Or this is the woman you've actually always known that now applied it to another set of circumstances? What's the history between the two of you when you're upset, when you're mad, when you're frustrated, where you want to make a comment?

10:44Are your feelings at all aloud recognized if they counter hers? You were 19, right? So there was 19 years of history before that. Yeah. When it happened and it felt very much like a night and day shift. it felt very much like, who is this person? I don't recognize her. With more time and hindsight, some of it tracks more. And I'm able to see ways in which my other mom balanced her out and she wasn't as intense. But there were a few times, there definitely were, when her emotions trumped all else, and it was like she had blinders on. And when you talk about it with your other mom, what does she say?

11:43She's sympathetic. She wishes it weren't so difficult for me. She understands what I'm feeling because she's felt it. and she's set a firm boundary of protecting herself and she's very supportive of me around my relationship with my other mom she's always offering to have less time with me so that my other mom can have more time with me which is just frustrating because that's not what I want in that, you know, it's sweet. But it makes you want to have more time with her. Yeah, right. Yeah. What would you want? Do you want her to recognize more of your experience or you want a different way of dealing with her?

12:44It's not the same, right? It's not the same. And I'm thinking about how she's not completely unaware to my emotions and my feelings. And I think she is sympathetic in her way. like have you ever had a chance of simply asking her is it difficult for you to recognize that this was a real painful experience for me and that that doesn't mean that it wasn't painful for you too but is it difficult for you because you feel like contributed to my pain or because you think that when I say that I don't recognize yours I'm just curious. We've had many conversations that are in that vein. It's usually much more emotionally charged because, well, I'm much more emotionally charged because I've let myself get to a point where I have all this pent up feeling of feeling as if I'm putting my own desires and comfort and beliefs on hold so that we can be civil.

13:57And she gets very defensive. Have you ever had the opportunity of asking her just about her own experience without inserting yours? Just kind of tell me, you know, tell me the story as you see it. i haven't and it's hard to imagine that

14:27um and maybe this is the place where i'm stuck and it's the part that i have to let go of but hearing you say that i want to say but she's like why should i give her more grace and room to share her story. All we've been talking about is her story and her pain.

14:51That is true. This is not going to be about how you make her recognize you more. This is going to be about how you deal with her differently. And I have a feeling that some of the things I'm going to say I'm going to twist your stomach. That's okay. Because we have to go we don't have to but because I'm imagining loosening the grip because you keep coming back to receive something that you don't get and that makes you come back for more that you don't get. And then you're stuck between do I give in or do I hold up as if there's only two options? And I'm thinking when you ask her that question, you just kind of say, okay, can I listen for 10 minutes to her without instantly feeling that I'm sacrificing myself and compromising my own integrity and just simply be curious without thinking why should I give her when she gives me nothing?

15:58I give her because I'm curious because I want to actually figure this out. That's my only reason. And because I don't feel that what I do works. I don't know what I want to do instead, but one thing I know is that what I do is not working.

16:21Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Osea. You deserve good rest, but you're not always going to get it. And on those days when you're stretched a little thin or running on fumes, one of the first places that can show up is your skin. Osea wants to help you develop a good routine so that you and your beautiful skin can get the rest you deserve. Their line of Dream Collection products were developed to help reduce the visible effects of stress on your skin, all while you sleep. And the Dream Bioretinal Body Serum is the perfect restorative treatment that smells heavenly. My favorite Osea product lately is the Hyaluronic C Serum.

17:03As the weather changes, I like to incorporate different serums into my skincare routine, and I find the level of moisture of the C Serum just right, and it lasts all day. Give your skin a rest with clean, clinically tested skincare from Osea. And right now, they have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10 % off your first order site-wide with code Ester at OseaMalibu.com. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. Sometimes it's nice to do a little spring reset with your closet to make sure you're focusing more on quality than quantity. So if you're looking for elevated looks you'll be able to wear year after year, you might want to check out Quince.

17:49Quince is offering beautiful everyday pieces using premium materials like 100 % European linen, organic cotton, and super soft denim, with style starting around$50. Plus, Quinze works directly with factories and cuts out the middleman, so you're paying for quality and not brand markup. Lately, I've been eyeing the washable stretch silk tank. It looks like a fantastic essential piece to throw on now that the weather is warming up. Perfect for layering this spring. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com slash begin for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too.

18:33That's quince.com slash begin to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash begin. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. When starting a business, there's always the question at the back of your mind, what if I fail? The other side of that is, of course, what if you don't? There's only one way to find out. You can make it happen with the help of Shopify. Millions of businesses around the world rely on Shopify for e-commerce, from businesses just getting started to household name brands. It can help you with everything from payment processing to analytics to website design.

19:17choose from hundreds of templates to create a great-looking website. Their email and marketing tools can help you get your name out there and stay connected with customers. And if you ever need help, Shopify's 24-7 award-winning customer support has got you back. You can turn those what-ifs into a thriving business with Shopify today. You can sign up for your$1 per month trial today at shopify.com. slash Esther. You can go to Shopify.com slash Esther. That's Shopify.com slash Esther.

19:55Did I read correctly that you are getting married? Yes. So this is an interesting moment to be having this conversation, right? Because part of it is going to be how much do I want her involved and how close can she come to me, etc. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to think out loud a few and you can with your finger tell me up or down or you can tell me two or five. Five means better than two. And we're going to just play a little game. Some of this is often paradoxical. Just so we are clear, it's not meant to be taken at a literal level. One option is exactly this. You know, I noticed that many times you've been trying to tell me how hard this was for you.

20:48And unfortunately, it's as if you're saying it only when I come to try to tell you, but I'd love to hear. And then you sit down, you take a pen, you take a piece of paper, and you write it down so that you don't have to react. And you just say, let me see how this woman puts her story together. Option two is there's something you've been trying to tell me and we seem to always circle back and know at the same bone. Curious. Now every time you say I'm curious you're going to have to fight. Why do I have to be curious and why should she not be curious? Why me? Simply because you're trying to differentiate yourself from her because you don't like what you're doing and you're doing it for yourself.

21:38You're not doing it because you think it makes life easier on her and it gives her a pass. Version three, I see no fingers yet. Oh, both good. Other line is, you know, when I tell you how difficult this was for me, I really am not trying to tell you that you wronged me. I'm actually seeking to connect with you. And somehow that's not coming across. I'm coming to get closer to you. In your mind, that getting closer includes you recognizing me. But basically, I'm not coming just to vent. I'm coming because I'm trying to repair something. Have you noticed that? Thank you. Three up. But I need to grade them too.

22:31They're not all at the same quality level. That one sparked the most discomfort in me, which I think means that it's maybe the best one. Because I turned it upside down, you see, because you say, if I go to tell her how hurt I was and how shocked I was, it's as if I'm coming to attack her. But in fact, if I want her to recognize my pain, I'm actually coming to seek a connection. Yeah, and that feels very true to me. Yes. Yeah. So how do I tell her that? And then you say, I really need you to not speak right now. Because I want you to actually take in what I'm saying. I think you experienced me as coming to attack you and blame you.

23:22but in fact I am coming because I want you to know what was going on with me as a way to weave back the thread between you and I I am actually not coming to talk about you I'm coming to talk about me and if she tries to talk you to say just to me the courtesy and stay with me I have more and then you say I am 10 years later and I don't see things in the same way that I used to I bought into your story I bought into the beauty of this relationship and I really thought things were beautiful and maybe they even were I don't know what prompted you or what happened. But I think what I need to hear from you is that what I believed in was real.

24:18Especially as I get married myself, it's very important for me to know that I didn't live in a lie. That the love story in which I grew up actually existed. I actually do believe that. Good. Good. That part I don't struggle with. Then if you don't struggle with it, it may even be more of a reason why to bring it to her. Yeah. Because it gives her a different understanding of what you're coming to ask. Now, she may be very defensive, generally speaking, because it feels to her that one wrong thing means that the whole thing is wrong. in which case usually we say there is a strategy which is that we start with a bunch of positive things now sometimes that feels very difficult because it's like why do i have to rob this in sugar if all i want to say is a few things you know straight out of my mouth because we talk in order for the other person to hear it right to just get it out of our system you can talk to anybody.

25:27So what you know about her is she's maybe sensitive to criticism and she doesn't like not to do things well. And she doesn't like the idea that her actions may have been hurtful to others. And so I am clear, you can say, that hurting me was not the thing you intentionally meant to do. I know that. The whole point is that you hold her hand, by the way, while you're speaking, because there's plenty of research about how digging into conflict while actually having physical contact creates a bridge. I would almost call it a transmission of oxytocin that allow two people who are at odds to actually become closer.

26:22The other thing is also to say, and I know that you really did not mean to hurt me. And that's why I can come and tell you how hurt I was. Because if I thought you had been intentional, I wouldn't trust you. And then you hold your hand. You just said, I just want you to hold my hand. As we go into this wedding, I need to say a few things to you. And I need you to, and if she speaks, you put her finger in front and you just very gently say, wait a little bit longer. I'm here to give to you. I'm not here to scold you. I'm not here to berate you. I'm not here to score points with you. The goal of this whole thing is not necessarily for her to acknowledge and to recognize.

27:20It's actually for you to not need her to acknowledge it to the extent that you do in order to experience the legitimacy of what you're feeling. I'm definitely open to trying that. And I think in talking through it with you, it's helpful to hear back the way that I sound in, well, why should I be the one? And I've known that, but it's different to hear you say it and think about it as I can choose to let go of that and it doesn't change what happened. Nor how I feel. Nor how I feel. Meaning about these issues. I don't need her to see, to acknowledge it, to recognize it, for me to know. It's my experience.

28:21it's valid and I may have to live with the fact that there's a lot of things that are wonderful with her and there's a few places that are really stuck if I bring this up I'm rarely gonna get she just can't yeah and I don't really want to be Moses and the rock and I'll bang and bang and hope that water will flow because the water won't flow yeah not from that place

28:55yeah because it doesn't even if i'm not arguing with her or being confrontational i feel really confined and uncomfortable and like i like it's an uncomfortable shirt i want to take off do you get along with her new partner she's fine

29:19all right that says it all she's fine and i'm really glad that my mom has found someone it's made my life a lot easier because before

29:36Before, so much more of her energy was focused on the past and going back to that or resenting me moving on, maybe. And so it felt like a lot more to hold off, almost. So let me ask you, is there a community around your family of close friends? Yes. And is there one of these close friends who you could identify as a liaison? For what? For transmitting some messages. Maybe. I mean, there definitely is someone, but I don't know how that would feel to her. You would never send her as a messenger. Okay. You would simply one day have the opportunity to talk and to ask how did she experience this whole transition.

30:42And then you will share some of how you've experienced the whole transition. and then you will express some of your own longings about the wish that some of your own transition had been more acknowledged and you'll just deposit seats. You don't say anything. Well, I have had those conversations. Okay, okay. You're ahead of me. I have those people and I have had those conversations and... And did the information flow? No, because I believe that they also know that that wouldn't be taken well. Okay, so you're not alone. No. That helps you. On some level, that helps you even more because then you know that it's less about how do I get in there and it's more about how do I resist the urge to knock at a door where this is not what I'm going to receive.

31:49Yeah. And in fact, this is about her. And I see it because I talk to a number of their friends and I see that there's a bit of a consensus. That some people are wonderful and there's a few areas where it's better not to reach out to them. And then sometimes people say, well, if I can't do that, then I shouldn't have a relationship at all. But I don't hear that. I think you may have had that at some phases. Yeah. But I don't feel that now. So then you know she can't. She won't, not yet, not now. And then when she reacts, it was very hard for me too.

32:39Here's the answer. Brace yourself. I know that, and I also know that you have often felt that there was not enough recognition for that toward you. Yeah. I know that you're telling it to me each time because there is this belief that since you're the one who left, you have nothing to complain about. You did what you wanted. Or you had the affair. And you're saying it like someone who feels that nobody actually ever saw their pain. because all they saw was their action. You cringing or it's okay? No, no, it's okay. It is. I think you're right. I think that is how she feels. Yeah. Anyone who would be in that position and say this, it's a fair guess.

33:41Yeah. It's not very scientific to guess that. But it is the thing that most of the time people will not recognize. Of course, that doesn't explain why she can't hear you. We know there is more to the story. But these kind of responses will be very surprising to her. Yeah. And sometimes when people actually finally feel that someone sees their story, it's remarkable how they're accidentally able to see someone else's yeah because instead of pulling on the rope me too me first why not me why you but if actually you come all the way to the other side yeah it's funny that you say this because it's a concept i'm i'm familiar with and And it's one that my fiancé and I call it the Chinese finger trap.