In short
A counseling session about the long aftermath of an affair that was revealed about a year ago, even though it happened roughly 10 years earlier. The couple focuses on how to shift from “detective” questions (facts like when/where) to “meaning” questions (what needs and emotional patterns the affair represented), and how to rebuild intimacy now—especially affection, touch, and prioritizing the couple over parenting logistics.
Guests (confidential)
Two spouses in their 20+ year relationship (married ~16 years). The wife is the one who discovered the affair; the husband had an affair with her best friend (their families were close; the friend’s husband was his friend; they lived one street apart). The husband describes growing up with emotional isolation and difficulty asking for help; the wife describes guilt, resentment, and loss of joy, plus difficulty understanding “why” when the affair was out of character.
Key claims
The secret lasted years and is as damaging as the betrayal; answers to “why” may not fully exist, but understanding the emotional meaning can reduce obsession. Repair requires new attention now (small daily affection/hugs, deliberate couple time) rather than only revisiting the past.
Notable examples
The wife’s relief at the husband’s spontaneous hug from behind; their discussion of “investigative vs meaning questions”; planning a calendar-based priority for couple time; reframing affection as teaching children reciprocity.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Revelation of Betrayal
2:18 to 4:31
A woman shares her discovery of her husband's affair with her best friend.
“he had a two-year-long affair with my best friend.”
Struggles with Guilt and Responsibility
4:31 to 6:40
Discussion of guilt and the need for communication in a relationship post-affair.
“It just gave me a different perspective.”
Childhood Influences on Relationships
6:40 to 9:10
Exploration of past experiences affecting current relationship dynamics.
“It's always like, what can I do to make her happy?”
Navigating Secrets and Deception
9:10 to 11:25
Delving into how the affair was discovered and the impact of secrecy.
“So we're here because I made a mistake 11 years ago.”
Understanding the Why
11:25 to 14:00
A woman grapples with understanding the reasons behind her husband's affair.
“No, I ended the friendship around that same time that he ended his relationship with her.”
Understanding the Affair's Impact
14:00 to 16:49
Explore the psychological effects of infidelity and the struggle for understanding.
“and they would never think in a million years it's something he would do that's just so out of character for him.”
Distinguishing Questions in Relationships
16:49 to 19:09
Learn about different types of questions that help unpack relationship issues.
“so this is even before your mom this is before your dad leaves you have an experience of yourself as in my family A.”
Delving into Emotional Needs
19:09 to 22:44
Examine the emotional needs that may trigger infidelity and their implications.
“They are parallel stories that suddenly enable people to do stuff they don't know how to do in their life.”
The Importance of Empathy
22:44 to 23:39
Discover how empathy can facilitate healing in relationships after betrayal.
“So stay with us and let's see where this goes.”
The Importance of Empathy
25:25 to 25:35
Discover how empathy can facilitate healing in relationships after betrayal.
“That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash begin for free shipping and 365-day returns.”
Show all 25 chapters
Reflecting on Family Influence
26:52 to 28:00
Discuss how family dynamics and parental actions shape beliefs about relationships.
“I don't know the exact reason why they split.”
Exploring Feelings of Guilt and Responsibility
28:00 to 29:04
Understanding the complexities of guilt and personal responsibility in relationships.
“A lot of I don't know often makes me wonder the degree to which the exposure was traumatic.”
Reflections on Affection and Marriage
29:04 to 30:29
Discussing the challenges of maintaining affection and connection in a busy marriage.
“Well, that's what has been the hardest part for me is because the marriage I knew that I thought that I had was perfect.”
Balancing Family and Relationship Needs
30:29 to 32:18
The struggle of prioritizing the couple's relationship amidst family demands.
“And I still have a hard time being as affectionate as I would like to be.”
The Importance of Couple Connection
32:18 to 33:50
Emphasizing how paying attention to each other strengthens family dynamics.
“As far as when it comes to like the kids and putting them first, I feel guilty if I don't because I never had that as a kid growing up.”
Energy in Relationships vs. Affairs
33:50 to 36:18
Examining the contrasting energy levels in relationships and affairs.
“This is how we look at each other while we are in the kitchen together.”
Rekindling Relationship Intimacy
36:18 to 37:31
Discussing small actions to promote intimacy and connection in relationships.
“So I think we do something tonight where we put in our calendar when we get back home and we make that happen.”
Navigating Anger and Betrayal
37:31 to 40:05
Exploring the complexities of anger and betrayal in relationships post-affair.
“And if she pushes a little bit because she's in the middle of something.”
Confronting Past Decisions
40:05 to 42:00
A discussion on the difficulties of addressing past infidelities and emotional turmoil.
“when you find out that your partner had an affair 10 years ago.”
Exploring the Weight of Secrets in Relationships
42:00 to 47:40
The conversation delves into the emotional turmoil of holding onto secrets and the complexities of interpersonal relationships.
“like how you lived with yourself for those five, six months knowing that it was out there and that I probably would at that point find out.”
Exploring the Weight of Secrets in Relationships
48:31 to 48:47
The conversation delves into the emotional turmoil of holding onto secrets and the complexities of interpersonal relationships.
“Look for Aloha Protein Bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com, A-L-O-H-A dot com.”
Exploring the Weight of Secrets in Relationships
48:52 to 51:13
The conversation delves into the emotional turmoil of holding onto secrets and the complexities of interpersonal relationships.
“Relationships often run the risks of being mired in routine.”
The Lingering Effects of Past Choices
51:19 to 56:01
The discussion continues to explore the enduring impact of past mistakes on relationships and personal growth.
“That's M-Y-S-K-Y-L-I-G-H-T dot com slash Esther.”
Exploring Guilt and Remorse
56:01 to 58:58
The discussion delves into the complex emotions of guilt, remorse, and the possibility of repair in relationships.
“Something as simple as just knowing that he thinks about it and I'm not alone with the awful emotions and thoughts every day.”
Exploring Guilt and Remorse
1:00:08 to 1:00:32
The discussion delves into the complex emotions of guilt, remorse, and the possibility of repair in relationships.
“an epic movie night we don't have enough snacks dinner party with the girls we'd have to decorate.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.
0:25Support for the show comes from Peacock and the new original series, The Five-Star Weekend. Jennifer Garner stars as Holly Shaw, a famed cook who invites her best friends to Nantucket after a devastating loss. Based on the best-selling novel by Ellen Hildebrand, this A-list ensemble also stars Darcy Carden, Gemma Chan, Regina Hall, and Chloé Sévigny. The five-star weekend is now streaming only on Peacock.
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2:17My husband of over 15 years, about a year ago, I found out that nine, ten years ago, he had a two-year-long affair with my best friend. I mean, she's the godmother to my daughter. They live one street over. They were both in our wedding. It was just a knife to the gut, because everything I thought I knew is just not what I thought it was. Most couples who come in the aftermath of an affair come in the immediate aftermath. In this case, the affair took place 10 years ago. But she has just found out. So what is the past for him is the imminent present for her. She's been living with this now in this turmoil for about a year, trying to figure out what was the marriage, living with a secret in their midst.
3:10And she wants to know, is this the man I thought he was? Is this the marriage that I thought we had? Did I make a fundamental mistake? Why did this happen? I think about it every day. It sucks. You know, I struggle with it every day. I don't really talk to her about it because I know she needs more taken care of than I do. And I don't want to burden her With everything that's gone on, our marriage has definitely gotten stronger. But I really want to help her. I really want to figure out how to help her move forward. There's been 10 years in between where he's been an amazing husband, an amazing father.
3:49We've had another child since then. He's a wonderful provider, but I'm pretty lost. I feel like I'm stuck in this purgatory. I'm hurting constantly. I don't have joy with my kids anymore. I've lost the person that I am and I want so badly to get back to that person and I just don't know how. And both of them are here to try to make sense of things and to find the permission to invest in their relationship and not just to be rooted in remorse. Let's listen.
4:30I found your book, State of Affairs. It just gave me a different perspective. I was on your website one night, and it was like, submit your story, and never thought anything would come out of it. And do you know where she brought you, or do you just kind of follow along? No, I know where she brought me. You know where you are? I know exactly where I am. I created this, and I have to deal with it. And I support her and these things that she wants to do. all day long. I heard your line. Your line is whatever she needs, but whatever she needs is one line. What do you need? Where are you coming from?
5:07And how do you enter this is another that needs to exist too. Yeah. I mean, I'm here for her. I'm here for us to figure out what we can do to make things better things that um you know that she might want or that I might want what we both want from each other the day like she came up behind me and gave me a hug felt so good and amazing and it was something that I was like wow I've never done that and I love that I felt so good so I think there's things like that that I want to figure out like what makes you happy yeah what makes you happy and things that I can do better that would make you happier?
5:50Just when you were talking now, and because of what you said, I created the mess. I don't even know what we're talking about yet, but I created the mess. I'm responsible. Anything she needs. Sometimes when people are in that position, they have a sense that they have used up their quota for the rest of their relationship. I feel so guilty. I'm so responsible for the mess we're in that I have no right to ask for anything anymore. So if she hugs me, and it feels so nice, I can't just say I loved it, I would like more of it. I have to go and say I'm here to make her happy so that if she's happy, she can make some things that make me feel good.
6:33It all kind of becomes a big detour laid out for me. I definitely don't do a lot for myself. It's always like, what can I do to make her happy? I don't think I've said no to anything that she's requested since. And all of this is recent? Or that has been the structure of your relationship always? I think generally it's been the structure. You're always very easygoing and just, yep, I think. But that's not easygoing. That is being powered by guilt and remorse. And I think that's part of my past too. And that's why I think I've just always done stuff myself and not asked for help. I'm not one to ask.
7:20I always try to just do things myself. You keep a lot inside. Yeah. That too. So if you wanted something, you're not good at asking. No, not at all. Because? When I was younger, I never had the parent to be able to tell and feel comfortable about it. So, I mean, I was on my own. I was 18. And I was on my own because? My father moved. My mother passed away at a very young age. Well, not very young. She was young. She was 50. So my mother died. But before that, my father decided to go to Virginia. So I had to figure out what to do and just kind of... Basically, he gave him an ultimatum and said, you can come with me.
8:13Yeah. Don't help me. No, no, sir. If he keeps everything in and he's in the middle of telling, we're going to take that opportunity. Okay. Sorry. I do that. No, absolutely nothing to apologize for. I'm just meeting you. Yeah, so it's got to a point where I just was on my own, doing my own stuff. And that's something that I think I've tried to do with our kids way better than what I had, is to pass on something better in structure and, you know, pay it forward in a better way than what we had or I had. So your dad decides to move and he says, come with me or do whatever you want? Yeah, pretty much that's what it was, is you can come down here or you can stay here and figure out, you know, what you want to do.
9:04So I stayed and worked. I worked a ton. And then what happened? Why are we here? Why are we here? So we're here because I made a mistake 11 years ago. And you are together how many? We are together 23 years. Yeah. About that. We're married 16 years. Yeah. And I had an affair with her friend. Well, it was our friend, mutual friends. Her husband was my friend. They lived on like the next street over. And I had an affair with her for over a year. And that came out now? Yeah, that came out a year and a half ago. Almost. A little over a year. Yeah. Basically, one of his friends knew about this all along and never said anything to anybody and then decided to tell his best friend, who was the husband of her, last year.
10:13And that's how it all came out. I just thought it was absurd. Like, there's no way that that's true. And I kind of sat with it for about five months. And then I finally asked him and he told me a little. and then I found out more and then he told me a little bit more. But it was so long ago that he is a little fuzzy in his memory about specifics like when did it start, when did it end. He's had a hard time answering my questions. So I'm, in my mind, rewriting all the memories that I had of those. I think it was probably closer to two years because she was my best friend and her husband was his best friend.
10:57And like he said, they lived one street over. We were together as like a group almost every single day. They had a daughter. We just had a daughter. And we just were like one big happy family. That's all I knew us to be. And then, you know, fast forward nine years, she divorced her husband. But we were still friends with the husband. He was still best friends with him. up until this all came out last year. And you did not stay friends with her? No, I ended the friendship around that same time that he ended his relationship with her. She was changing and becoming a person that I didn't agree with.
11:37She was doing things with other men at that time, and I didn't agree with it, and I didn't want that kind of energy around our daughter. We basically just stopped talking, and that was about eight years ago. I'm listening to this sentence again now, and I remember listening to it in the session too. I didn't like this energy, and I didn't like it for my daughter, who is a newborn at the time, or a one-year-old. And it's an interesting comment where the reaction is from one woman to another, but the justification invokes the mother. There's something about saying it's the energy that my child would absorb feels more acceptable than to speak about what this is triggering in me to be next to this woman who is talking to me about her attractions or dalliances with other men.
12:35And I know, I sense somewhere that this could potentially be a threat to me. that this is not what I bring, that this is not how I enter my relationship, to the point that my husband has just, in the first two minutes of the session, talked about how amazing it was that I came to hug him from behind because it was so unusual. And so she describes a tension between two behaviors of women, but she justifies it by putting it in the context of her responsibility as a mother.
13:20Who knows about it? For a good few months, nobody knew. And then I've told my best friend, and then I've told another friend. And what do they know? They know everything that I know. So they know facts. Yeah. But they don't know meaning. Right. I don't really know the meaning. Right. And that's part of what you've been wanting to know? Yeah, I've had a hard time getting past this because I just don't understand. Because I can see her doing this. It doesn't surprise me. But with him, I mean, you can ask anybody who knows him and they would never think in a million years it's something he would do that's just so out of character for him.
14:08So the not understanding the why has just made it impossible for me to fully move on and stop thinking about it every day and stop looking back at pictures of us and rewriting the memories and questioning, like, when were you with her? Did it happen in our house? It's hard to get past all of those thoughts because I just am still having a hard time understanding why and how.
14:40sometimes when you ask fact questions where when how how many it makes it worse to go to sleep yeah but it doesn't really help you make sense of it yeah at this moment i know what we are here to do which is important for her in order to be able to have the images subside is for her to have clarification and understanding about how could this man do such a thing. And that means that we need to shift to a different set of questions. I've always thought that it was useful to distinguish between investigative questions and detective questions. Detective questions are questions that mine the facts.
15:31Where were you? Did you do it at home? Did you bring her here? Did you take her to that restaurant? Did our friends meet her? Did she do it better? All of these things that really just keep us awake at night. Meaning questions. Bypass the facts and go for what happened to you there? Who were you in that relationship? What did that relationship invite in you that does not get expressed with me? Did you think about us? Did you think about the children? How was it when you would come home? How did you experience the duplicity? Did you want me to find out? I have about 150 of those questions that are about the meaning.
16:17What would make someone risk losing everything that they have built? There must be something that is powerful enough, especially for those for whom this is really not in character. And he doesn't understand that either, about himself. So in effect, I meet them and they share the same question.
16:48You were saying something before, when you said, I've always decided things on my own. so this is even before your mom this is before your dad leaves you have an experience of yourself as in my family A. I don't get to have needs and if I do I'm only myself to respond to them did I get that right? Tell me more. Growing up, it was like not being able to talk to your parents and bring up stuff and talk to them and feel comfortable with them. I think really just kind of made me feel more closed in and just keep everything to myself and just manage it myself and try to figure out how to deal with it and do it.
17:44And even to this day, it's hard for me to ask for help. so you just said something before about how much you were moved when she came and hugged you from behind and spontaneously showed affection would you ever ask for that before no no would you ask for it now or just say i really appreciate it when you i don't think i've asked for it since i think when she did it i just told her i was like that's the first time you've ever done that and it felt so good. That's a lot. And I just said, thank you. Do you think that your affair was a way to ask for things that you don't usually ask? Possibly, yeah.
18:30I think so. But I don't think it's her fault at all. I think it's my fault because I didn't ask for it. We're going to set a few ground rules. We're not going to go into whose fault it is because it's not going to help us to put blame. and we're not going to justify it, but we are going to try to make sense of it because she needs it, and you need it too. And it has probably not much to do with her, and hence it actually is really interesting to find out what happened there because affairs are often out of character. Yes. They are parallel stories that suddenly enable people to do stuff they don't know how to do in their life.
19:17And so they do it in the shadow of their life. Yeah. I know it has nothing to do with her, except that it has to do with the fact that maybe she's not the person who spontaneously comes and hugs you and you crave it. So that's one thing you know you want more of. And I should be asking for it. Yes, not shoot. Feel free. You don't have to. but you can. So what I asked you was, did you have a sense that there was something that freed up when you were in the affair where you could ask for things that you don't usually ask? I think it was more of I didn't have to ask because she would just do that.
20:08You know, for people who don't ask to be given to and bypass the asking, is huge. Yeah, I guess you could say it felt easy, like there wasn't work involved. It was just simple. When he says it was easy, I translate it as I could have my needs met and never have to feel needy. Since I had learned to be self-sufficient, since I lost mom and I lost dad and I knew I only had myself, I curbed my needs. In this relationship, in the shadow of my life, I rediscovered them without having to face the consequences of the neediness and the longing that goes with it.
21:04Did you ever think that part of why you did it was because the siren call was irresistible? Yeah, I guess you could say that. He woke up the most forbidden needs, wishes, longings that this boy who then became man had yearned for and never felt. And it was so powerful that it made him do stuff that in his life, in his rational mind, he would never do. and so he lives with this contradiction between this deep need for connection and closeness and touch and the fact that it came with a betrayal and so you're stuck with this isn't me that's not what I would ever do and this is the most me I've ever been.
22:13Sometimes when we layer the psychology of the person who has the affair, it may seem like they're getting a free pass. They're not being held accountable. It's as if to humanize them, to make them more complex, is to be protective of the wrong person. I would like to suggest differently when she listens to him from that place it helps her one to really not personalize it as much two it gives her something to connect with with the person to actually activate empathy for this person which is not just as a way of letting them get away with something but it is actually as a way of allowing them to connect with them again It is at the core of what will provide a new type of intimacy between them.
23:10And it is often a misunderstood step.
23:18We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.
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26:52Did any of your parents have affairs? My mother and father divorced. Yes. Which one had the affair? I don't know. I don't know anything about it. Your mom? I actually really don't. All I know is they used to fight a lot. I don't know the exact reason why they split. I thought that they just got divorced because they didn't like each other. You do know. Because we've talked about it. And it was your mom. She had an affair. I didn't know she had an affair. We never talked about that. Sorry. I didn't know that. We never spoke about that. I do remember having a conversation with you. I remember you saying I'm just like my mom.
27:43No. I'm sorry, but I don't remember that. I'm sorry that I don't. No, I'm sorry that you don't, and I just said that to you. I swear you knew. I feel awful. You didn't feel awful. It's not your fault.
28:07A lot of I don't know often makes me wonder the degree to which the exposure was traumatic. Some things were too much to take in for how young the person was or for the place that they were in within the family. So I don't know is a way that people sometimes use to protect, not because they don't want to be honest but because when people don't remember their childhood it often speaks trauma. Your mom was a good person and that doesn't define who she was just like it doesn't define who you are. I know. Then I need you to understand that you're a good person. I think I'm probably the best person I've ever been in a long time.
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29:04Well, that's what has been the hardest part for me is because the marriage I knew that I thought that I had was perfect. You're a great husband. You've been an amazing father, an amazing provider. You have drive. You're everything that I want in a partner.
29:27And that's why when I found out, it wasn't a question of do I stay or do I go. you know, if it came to light then, I would have questioned whether or not I would have stayed with you and probably wouldn't have. But we've had so much good since that ended. This last year has been very challenging, but you've still been the same husband that you've always been, the person that I want to be with. Yeah, I'm sorry for all of this. I wish I could turn it all around. And what's hard for me also is that you wanted more affection. And I'm not the most affectionate person. But if you just came to me before you allowed something like that to happen.
30:19You could have worked on it. We could have worked on it. It's not something that needed to happen. No, I totally agree. And you still have a hard time asking for things. And I still have a hard time being as affectionate as I would like to be. Our lives are very busy and just always going through the motions with family and put you last, which I shouldn't. Put that sentence first. I shouldn't put him last. Because your life has no less busy and you have plenty of affection for your kids. Yes. There is no problem of time. Right. I give them my time. There is a problem of allocation. I think we give our kids too much time and not you and I enough time.
31:00yeah I think we do everything for everybody and you and I always come last literally we come last yeah we do a lot for a lot of people with helping them giving our kids everything that they want they need and then the day comes to an end and you and I don't even have enough time to enjoy ourselves I mean we meal prep for our dog We do. But we don't take care of us. If you could talk to how you want it to be different, what would it look like? What would it be? It would be giving ourselves time when we want it. Whatever it is, just you and I go for a walk with the dog. We say we're going to do it, but then we're like, oh, well, you know, kids or this or that.
31:55We have a hard time, I think, just putting our foot down for ourselves. Both of you? Yeah. Oh yeah. And so what stands in the way? What makes it so hard? Because we love our damn kids so much. I think it's also because we're tired. We're exhausted from long days of work. And I think you just take the defeat and you're toast. What were you going to say? As far as when it comes to like the kids and putting them first, I feel guilty if I don't because I never had that as a kid growing up. My parents didn't put me first in the way we do with our kids. And I don't want to take that away from them. So I just always put them first, but I always put everybody else first.
32:45That's just my personality. You know, on the long list of what children need, parents who pay attention to each other should feature high up. Yeah. Because these days, the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple. Yes, I believe that. So if you want your kids to have all what you want them to have, you actually need to give more to you. Mm-hmm. But if you feel that for every time you turn to him, you're abandoning them then it will be problematic it won't matter if it's a hug to him eyes to him we're not even talking about a vacation or a night away we're talking about attention from the woman to the man that is different than from the mother to the family right so he said I didn't get any of this and I made a mission for myself and that mission is going to make me super mom and shocked when he says I love this and I don't even think it's really the time away I think it's even just the small little things for you and I to do together yeah would be great we don't prioritize our relationship.
34:21I don't prioritize. But he doesn't either. I know that, but he just asked. This was actually a big one. This is an ask. This is how we look at each other while we are in the kitchen together. Yeah. And if you say, help me understand what happened there, this is a piece of it. Just is. Yeah, no, I agree. That doesn't make it right by no means, but it is at the core of what this, I think, was. Yeah. And sometimes affairs happen just because people are not paying attention to each other. Yes. For everything that doesn't involve your children, you basically say, I don't want them to miss anything, as if they're missing something.
35:21yeah we say that a lot you know as if they're missing something but the two of you are kind of underfed yeah overstructured and underfed and part of what will help you deal with the past is to change what's happening now yeah and I've never actually thought of it that way that It's true, like, our marriage is stronger because we're stronger, but we are still repeating the same things that basically got us there in the first place.
35:57What is amazing about affairs is the energy. Nothing stops anybody. People are never too busy, nor too tired, nor too stressed. Right. suddenly they have energy galore before they get to work they stop somewhere if people could put some of that very energy that is living totally in parallel with the rest of their life and bring some of that into their marriages marriages would be doing really well the zest the fervor the imagination the playfulness the curiosity the intensity you name it so when I hear people tell me that they're too busy after hundreds of these it's like bullshit thank you it is yeah I just like seriously so the stakes are high for every time you think I need to figure out what happened back then it's I need to figure out what's not happening now Yeah.
37:13And I don't do that. No. So I think we do something tonight where we put in our calendar when we get back home and we make that happen. And you can do a thing that's one minute a day. And five minutes in this. But it's about a deliberate attention. If you enjoy touch, you go hug her from the back. I do. And if she pushes a little bit because she's in the middle of something. Pushback. Yes. Yeah. I do do that. Just you say, of course you do that. Yeah. Of course you do that. Because the mother that you want to be will not let the woman breathe. Yeah. That's very accurate. There is that thing, that slight lifting of the shoulder, stiffening of the neck that just says, not a good time.
38:06Not a good time. I'm busy. I'm somewhere else. And this is where you say, come here. We have something important to do. I have yet to meet a couple that will regret having hugged. I only meet couples who regret never hugging. Yeah. Or holding, or looking at each other for a second, or smiling to each other. And we're not talking sex yet. We're just talking physicality. Playfulness. Surprise. Stuff that makes people alive. You can be not dead, but that's not the same as alive. So we need to demand more out of each other. Beautiful. Yeah. Yes. Even if it's two seconds, even if it's just the hug.
39:03Just to say how our day was, not our kids, like, let's just leave them to the side and just give each other a conversation, I guess. You actually wouldn't be leaving them to the side. You would be teaching them something so important. Yeah. Because, as you just described, we learn love in part from what we see at home. You would not be any less busy with them. You just won't be catering to them. you actually will be showing them a cycle of reciprocity between two people. Yeah. But it's going to come from you. Meaning it's the opposite of what you've done for the last 10 years. How much can I occupy the least space possible?
39:54This is going to be the opposite. But it's going to be in the service of the relationship and in the service of you feeling valued. which is for sure one of the things that gets broken when you find out that your partner had an affair 10 years ago. Yeah. Do I matter? Show her she matters. Part of my problem, though, is that I still have a lot of anger for what he did, so that's sometimes why I just kind of retract, because it's just changed things for me so much. But you always did. Did I? A little bit, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not always, but a lot of the times I think about it, it's just I don't want to because I'm angry.
40:42Yeah, and then you can tell him. Yeah. Right now, you're on the shit list. Yeah, sometimes. I want nothing to do, but it's okay. But make it obvious. Yeah. Your anger has its place. Tell him. Yeah. And I usually don't. and if she gets pissed, you can also say, I'm doing everything I can to repair this, and I have, and I need you to do it with me because fundamentally, we've decided to be together and stay together. Let's bring this back to life. And we love each other. Okay. Yeah, I keep a lot of that in. I feel like we don't really talk about what happened. Certainly, he doesn't bring it up, especially now that some time has gone by and I hold a lot of resentment because I feel like I'm just on a boat in the middle of the ocean by myself holding all these feelings of betrayal and anger and confusion and I struggle every day with what you did and how you did it and how you live with yourself because there was a good period of time a good chunk of time when it was exposed that I still didn't know.
41:58And it's so hard for me to understand like how you lived with yourself for those five, six months knowing that it was out there and that I probably would at that point find out. And you were just waiting for me to be the one to ask. Yeah, it felt horrible. I mean, it was miserable to hold in. It's terrible to hold in. It's not knowing what that is going to be when it comes out. and how you're going to feel and what you're going to do and your reaction and what other people are going to think and everything and how I'm going to get judged and all of it. You feel bad for her or bad for you? I feel terrible for her that she's had to make this part of her life.
42:44I think it's not what anybody should have to go through. But what she wants to know is how come you never thought of being the one to break the silence with her. I don't know. I think it was just more of not wanting to hurt her and obviously I had already done that. I think you didn't want to deal with the repercussions. Oh, that too, obviously, yeah. Which makes me circle my mind back of how could you do what you did knowing what the repercussions could be? No idea. Yeah. You still would say I don't know? To why I did it? Mm-hmm. Well, part of that affection thing that she was just there all the time and I didn't have to ask for it and she would give it.
43:33Mm-hmm. And it's like drinking from a fire hose. Mm-hmm. Your mom dies. Mm-hmm. Your dad quits. And you find someone who's always there? Mm-hmm. That means a lot. If you can let it sink in. Mm-hmm. So you have to stop saying, I don't know why. That's one of these lines that is becoming very encrusted. How did it end? Do you know? I don't 100 % recall how it ended. I don't know. She was going through stuff. She was also, I believe, seeing, like, other people on top of all this. and then I think at that point was planning on leaving him and moving on. And how was that for you? Okay. Done. I had no emotional connection with her.
44:32We ended it and that was it. And while it was happening, did you sometimes think this should stop? Or this is... Yeah, but she was a very persistent person. very very persistent the word she's persistent what does it mean the persistence yeah that she was just always there in pushing in pushing in pushing for it in what sense that she had her hands on you and you didn't have to yeah come over to her like you know it's a useful word but it doesn't really say anything did she threaten you did she insist did she make it so that you didn't feel that you had options did she smother you did she fuck you 10 different ways that made it so irresistible what is persistence she just was persistent i don't know like i'm trying to answer you were in it i wasn't there i didn't say you were there i'm saying that's what i know and if i knew how i felt I'd have that answer.
45:40But you know what happens. But I don't know. I do, but I don't know why in my mind I kept letting her do that. Like I wasn't going to her. She was coming to me. So I don't know why I kept letting that happen. I'm not sure I have 100 % reason, so I don't want to say something that maybe isn't correct. No, it's not like you're putting your feet on the fire here. I'm exploring it with you. I'm sure there was a lot of things is going through my head, and I don't recollect all of that. I don't. What does it mean that he doesn't know? Is it that he forgot? Is it that it remained vague? Is it that he was so in the swing of things that he didn't have to really ask himself much?
46:25Or is it also that people who grow up very alone and who learn not to have needs also learn not to have a vocabulary that allows them to know what they feel? What they know is that there was something very powerful happening to them. What it represented, why it was so irresistible, where it layered itself onto early childhood needs. They don't make all of these connections. And when he talks about what he needs and what he feels, it is in the physical language. It is in a very early language, a language that is before we speak with words. That is where his emotional truth takes place. So I can push, I can challenge, I can question, but it doesn't get translated into a vocabulary of emotions.
47:24We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.
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50:14Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Skylight. The Skylight Calendar is an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, and more. You can manage events, chores, and grocery lists while assigning colors for each of your family members. Jessie, my producer, has used a skylight frame. With the circus that I run at home, I absolutely need some way of trying to organize the madness. I like the kids to have, you know, colors so that they know what their thing is that day, when their soccer is, or what have you. And then my husband can quickly pull it up and say, you know, I have to be here at this time to pick up at this place because when you have three kids, you are basically just an Uber service.
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51:29And I've mostly accepted that I'm just never going to get those answers, but it definitely makes it harder to try to close that chapter and focus on now, because I just keep going back to then. That is possibly true, but maybe not. the idea that if I have the answers to these questions it will help me put it to sleep it could be the opposite yeah what you know is that you've lived 10 more years that were very real as well the question we often have is is the 10 years defined by the secret or by what happened that's what I question There is nobody who can give you a definitive on this one. Yeah.
52:19The little bit I gather, I think that what you lived together is real. And he had a secret. Sometimes I think the conversation is less about the affair than about the secret around the affair. Yeah. Secret is a lot longer. Yeah. and how much did that secret have an effect on you? What it's like for him to spend 10 years organized around a secret that kind of lives in the middle of this relationship. Maybe not all the time, maybe not at all, but it's a useful question. It's like you, me, and your secret have had a relationship here as well. Yes, and I've asked him that because that makes me question, like, he's always been wonderful for these 10 years.
53:13Was that because he just grew into that person or was some of that driven by guilt and he was trying to make up for it? It makes me question those 10 years. Were they true? And? I haven't gotten an answer about it that. What's the question? Did I? Did you think about it for the last 10 years? Did it? Did it affect me? Yes. 100 % every day. Keeping something like that is miserable. It's horrible. It's not what I would want anybody to go through on top of you going through what you're going through. But to hold something like that is shit. It sucks. It's taxing on your life because you don't know how you can deal with yourself.
54:08And then you just think all your life, like, who else will find out? Who else will judge you? How are they going to perceive you for what you did? And it's all the time. I still have that. I still have that every single day. That never leaves. Honestly, I didn't think you thought about it unless I brought it up. No, it's never going to go away. It'll never go away. You wish you could rewrite the storybook. Yeah. You can't. The only thing you can do is just move forward and be who you really want to be with the person you want to be with. Which you have. I just wish you had a better book to write.
55:00You really do. I know you are. I mean, what you did doesn't define your whole life. It's just a part of our story that I never wanted, either. I know. But it's not the whole story. And I've accepted that very early on, but I just didn't know where you were. Or even if you thought about it. I'm here. I know you're here. But that's because, like you said in the beginning, you were here because...me. And I wouldn't be here if you weren't the person now that I love so much. I love you too. I hate that version of you. Me too. But you've been a wonderful person a lot longer than when you were a bad person.
55:56Did you get some answers? I did. Yeah. I actually feel a lot better. Something as simple as just knowing that he thinks about it and I'm not alone with the awful emotions and thoughts every day. That means a lot. So that's not something he's ever said to me. I don't tell her that I think about this because I don't think that my thinking matters because only hers is important. But then she's left thinking that she's the only one who cares. Every time you think that by doing less, asking less, saying less... Is worse. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I judge myself all the time about this. Right. Every day.
56:55It would help her a lot. And you, by the way. But if you really think, what can I do to help her? This will. Can I ask you something? Do you feel like you deserve the life, the marriage, the family, the wife? I think some days they deserve better. My kids deserve better.
57:25So when she says you're not defined by this one action, you say, no, I am. I think I have a long way to go still. But it's also the future as your kids get older. I think about what if they do find out what's going to happen? What's going to happen is you're going to tell them your dad fucked up. and he was blessed to have the opportunity to repair. He had an amazing partner, wife, who said, there is more to you than this. It was a big mistake, but it probably motivated you to become a lot more conscientious and that life is filled of broken pieces that we put back together. and that it made you value what you had even more.
58:22So you talk about what is rupture and what is repair and what is remorse and what is guilt and what is acknowledgement and what is betrayal and what is love.
58:35And how the two of you were able to take this wound and it became a scar. That'll be an amazing lesson.
58:57Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.
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From the publisher
The two couples had been inseparable—neighbors, chosen family, godparents to each other's children. She reaches out to Esther in despair after discovering that her husband had a ten-year-old affair with her best friend. For a decade, he kept the betrayal hidden while she believed they had built a loving marriage and family. Now she's left questioning whether any of it was real. They both want to stay together, but she's trapped in doubt and grief, while he's desperate to repair what he's broken. What does it take to rebuild a relationship after a betrayal of this magnitude?
Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments.
Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com
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