From Road Racing to Ultras with Marathon Legend Des Linden

0:06Des Linden:My favorite marathon has got to be the Boston Marathon. A lot of history there. Good memories. On April 16, 2018, Des Linden became the first American woman to win the Boston Marathon in 33 years. Before this historic finish, Dez had spent more than a decade building a career as one of the most accomplished runners in the country. She competed in elite marathon races, represented the U.S. at the 2012 and 2016 Olympics, and set a world record for the 50K. Last year, on the morning of her 13th Boston Marathon, Dez announced that she was officially retiring from professional road racing. And while she's stepping away from this specific type of running, she's already exploring some exciting wild ideas.

0:56I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard.

1:11Des Linden, welcome to Wild Ideas Worth Living. I'm really excited to talk to a runner, a marathon runner, one of the most badass female marathon runners in the world of our time, and a fellow San Diegan. Very exciting for me.

1:26Des Linden:That's right. Yeah, it's the San Diego nugget that I think we have to latch on to for sure. And you're a Padres fan, I've read. Yes, I try. It's tough, it's a tough job, but I'm keeping the faith, as they say. And where are you based now? I'm in Charlevoix, Michigan. How did you guys settle in Michigan? So I moved out to Michigan to join a team right out of college. And I remember my dad saying, don't meet a boy, get married and never come home. And I met my husband who's from Michigan and we got married and now I live here. I loved reading about you because you just seem fun. You love music. You love bourbon.

2:06You love your dog. You love to run. And I'm curious, What about the marathon? What about 26.2 miles lured you in?

2:15Des Linden:Yeah, it was kind of accidental. To be honest, when I was in high school and college, it was like mile, 800 meters, like 1500 is, you know, that's the sweet spot. And even the 5k felt a little long. And I remember in college, my coach saying like, yeah, I think we're going to move you up to the 10. I was like, I'll quit. Like, don't test me with that. But my last race, I think like my senior year, he was like, okay, it's time. And it was kind of too late to quit at that point. So I ran the 10 ,000 meters and I ended up being second in the Pac-10 conference. So Pac-10 at the time. Yeah, so it was like, oh, maybe I'm okay at this.

2:54Des Linden:And that kind of opened my eyes for one, just like getting out of my own way. But two, like what could I do in the longer distances? And then even stepping off the track and half marathons and things like that, it's very talent oriented. and I felt like the marathon is, it's a thinking game. You know, it's a little bit more chess than checkers. And so that was a big component that I really liked. There was just so much time out there, so much real estate to cover that you had to be, you could almost outsmart people and be more strategic. And those things really mattered beyond just like talent and fitness.

3:30Des Linden:It was the mental side of the game that I found really intriguing with the marathon. That's so interesting. I'm not a marathon runner. I'm like pretty much a classic. I did the 1500 in college and high school. But when I was reading your book, I didn't realize that in the marathon, there was so much strategy of like when you would speed up and when you would slow down and then you'd have to like stay with the pack or not. Yeah, it's a lot of decision making, which I think is what is really fun. I think you get into a number of these races and they take out the strategy with pacers. So you have like the London Marathon, the Berlin Marathon, Chicago Marathon.

4:05Des Linden:you kind of just find your pacer like how fast can I run this day tuck in behind the group and turn your brain off but I've been really drawn to these strategic marathons that strategy is a big part of it and that's Boston New York Olympic trials or just championship style races and that to me adds another component of this is more than just a foot race it's also a strategy game as well what was your what were some of your strategies that you used because you have this incredible like toughness that like a soccer player has yeah and you're like a total badass is that kind of correct about your personality I don't know I still have a soccer player in me that's like what I grew up playing and wanted to be but I was just too small making too small of a package to be a soccer player um but I hate to lose which is kind of funny because I lost most of my career but you have your little battles and I think I'm I'm gritty and competitive um I think just the ability to work really hard is a huge boost in the marathon.

5:06Des Linden:Being able to do more mileage is obviously advantageous for those late miles where it's a strength game. So I think that's helpful as well. Yeah, I think a lot of athletes have that. I don't know what the part is that separates me, but I think I'd like to think it's like maybe my mental strength and self-belief, And that's been built up over a lot of years. In 2007, Des ran the Boston Marathon for the first time, and she placed 19th. Just a year later, she finished fifth at the Chicago Marathon. From there, she went on to set her personal best at the World Championships and compete twice in the Olympics.

5:47But in the back of her mind, Des dreamt of returning to Boston to win the whole thing. No American had won the woman's division of the Boston Marathon since 1985. Des ran the race seven times before finally, in 2018, she achieved her goal and took first place.

6:08Boston is especially magical for you. Like, it holds a huge place in your heart. It's one of, like, the biggest career wins for an American woman, let alone your career. You have such this strong affinity to Boston.

6:22Des Linden:Yeah, I debuted there in 2007. So it was my very first marathon. And just getting that experience on such a magical course with so much history and the crowds get it. And it's just a different feeling out there. So I think that immediately connected me to the race. It was just like, oh, this is a place where you can do something special and the people really appreciate it. So I just kept going back year after year and was fortunate enough to be invited back. It's like a very tough professional field to be included in. So I want to say eventually ended up doing 13 of them. I'm on 13 last year. So yeah, I put a lot of time in.

7:04What's it like for those of us who haven't been there? I've been to New York. I've seen some other races, obviously San Diego Marathon. I've never been to Boston. I mean, we all know what happened the year there was the bombings, like, but there just seems to be like this deep lore around Boston that there isn't around other marathons.

7:24Des Linden:It's definitely the history. I mean, I think, you know, it's the original marathon. It was modeled after the idea of the Olympic marathon. I was like, that's really incredible. Why don't we do that? And it's point to point. It's on this tough course. So there's all these little elements. and then you put in 150 years of history and you get a lot of stories. And so it just keeps growing and evolving and changing. And so you just add yourself to that legacy and that story, which is really neat and unique. I think they're the World Marathon majors. They're all pretty special. New York is exciting and obviously very important to the city.

8:00Des Linden:You get the fans out there. It has a similar course and challenges and things like that, but just lacks that history that Boston was, it was the first, you know. But it was also so interesting to read your book because like I know marathons as like an everyday Joe running a marathon. I think very few people understand what it's like to race a marathon. It's so different just from how you train and how you show up and how you start to like when you're starting to take off from the pack. What was your most memorable Boston run? Oh, that's a tough question. I mean, I think the win in 18 has to be the top, right?

8:42Not only was it winning on the day,

8:45Des Linden:which is going to be a standout, but the weather conditions were just insane. It was unlike anything else most people had raced in. It was one of those days that you would look outside and be like, yeah, I'm not, I'm going to take a day off. I'm not going outside. You know, it's a 40 degrees, torrential downpour, just sheets of water coming down in a headwind. It's a, point to point course. So you basically drive 26.2 miles out to the start, and then you run back in one direction. And that happened to be into a headwind. So it was, you know, memorable in that respect, because just iconic images of it, and it looked brutal.

9:23Des Linden:So challenging. And then it changed the strategy quite a bit. Because, you know, you typically, how do you run the legs off your competitor? Where do you push? When do you make a break? And everything kind of just condensed, It was like, wait, wait, wait, like you want to make your move at the last second possible. And so it got slower and slower, which is very different, too. And then all kinds of crazy things happened that day just that matched the weather.

9:51Many of the runners in the 2018 Boston Marathon were unprepared for the brutal weather. They weren't ready for the cold and relentless rain, and some were forced to drop out due to hypothermia. But Des had trained in miserable Michigan weather, and she came ready with the right gear for the downpour. All she had to do was focus on her mental game. What do you say to yourself when you're, like, freezing cold and it absolutely sucks, but, like, you could win?

10:20Des Linden:Yeah, I mean, it was a mixed bag throughout the day. I think early on, it was very much like, don't dig yourself into a bigger hole by trying to force this to happen, when it's clearly a day that is going to be brutal and take more out of you from a recovery standpoint. So that was kind of the thought process early. I think midway, we just had a really great group of Americans in the field that year, and it seemed like we were due for an American win. So my thought process was like, how can I help these other athletes have their day? And so it was definitely a mindset shift where I was working in service of other people, and it really allowed me to not dwell on how I felt or how bad it was.

11:01Des Linden:And that evolved to late in the race where I realized actually I felt probably better than anybody else. And then it was just instinctual. Oh, yeah, like, let's just go racing. What about your mental game, like mantras, tracking? I always give my mantra and it's really practical. I've heard some really cool ones, like my friend Amy used to say, I breathe in strength, I breathe out weakness. And I was like, holy shit, that is like, profound. I can't imagine thinking that clearly in a race. I just say calm, calm, calm, relaxed, relaxed, relaxed. But you say it in a calm and relaxing voice. And head to toe body check of like, is my jaw relaxed?

11:44Des Linden:Or am I clenching my teeth? Where are my shoulders? Are they up in my ears? Or do I need to relax them? And just do a checklist head to toe, as I say that and then start from the top when you get to the end and kind of keeps you a little bit more present and I think when we are trying to force things is when we really start to tie up and tense up and that's not fast running that's forcing it.

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14:06professional marathoner des linden is one of the most legendary runners in the world she's famous for being the first american woman in 33 years to win the boston marathon her dedication to the sport and to the course in boston in particular has earned her a loyal fan base. But after 18 years of professional marathon racing, Des decided it was time for a change.

14:32You retired from professional marathon running quite recently. When did you know you're ready to finally like retire from it?

14:41Des Linden:Yeah, I think it's always kind of like in the air floating around like me, maybe I could keep doing it. But I think I kind of stagnated and I wasn't going to get better. I was going to get more competitive and the front of the races were just getting faster. So I wanted to give myself one more big effort to just see, you know, what can I do when I'm all in? And I feel like a lot of that was letting go of the next one, the next one, or next time I'll, you know, so having that eliminated and just being like, this is it, really allowed me to push on that last one. But yeah, I mean, I think there's a balance of it's like, it's like a dignity thing where you're like, I, you know, I want to do this.

15:30Des Linden:Well, I don't want to do it just because I'm okay at it. I want to be great at it. And that's, you know, behind me. So it was figuring out that balance. That takes a lot of humility. Yeah. How did that decision come about? I'm curious. And you announced your retirement in a pretty epic way. So I'd love for you to share that story. But like, how did you decide like, okay, this is time. This is going to be my last one. And like when you made that decision, how did you feel? Because that means that like this identity that you've had for many years as like one of the best female marathon runners in the world is going to be a different identity after that.

16:11Des Linden:Yeah. I think, I mean, I think the identity piece had already shifted, right? Like it was already like, okay, I used to be one of the best marathoners in the world and now I'm a, I'm good, but I'm not, I'm not a contender, right? Like, so it was already pretty clear. And yeah, I mean, I think knowing that and being at peace with that was pretty important, but also wanting to go out my own terms. You know, I think one thing that I was able to do was have this conversation with my sponsor Brooks and go through the Olympic year, try to make a team, try to finish top 10 of the trials, have big goals, um, and then not get to the end of that sort of contract year and have them be like, okay, your career is done because you don't have support anymore.

16:55Des Linden:Um, we had the conversation. It was like, we want to keep supporting you. And, you know, I said, I kind of feel like I'm at the end of this part of my career and they were comfortable with that. And And so we were able to create new contract and new adventures and new things for me to chase that I'm passionate about. But it gave me the opportunity to leave the sport in my terms, which I think is really rare and unusual. And I'm really happy that Brooks gave me the opportunity to do that. When you announced your retirement, tell us what you did. So for the announcement, I didn't tell anyone prior.

17:31Des Linden:and we took out a full page ad in the Boston Globe, just like the hometown paper. And I thought it was a nice letter to the fans of Boston and the people that were in town. It was a place that so much of my career happened. I was able to debut there. In 2011, I was runner up by two seconds and the community embraced it and got a lot of fans after that. So every time I went back, it just felt like there was a really good connection in that city. and obviously the win you know just felt a little bit bigger because it wasn't mine it was someone something that so many people had watched and followed for so long it was like we did this and so yeah it felt like the right way to say goodbye as well you have so many fans if you watch videos of you winning boston in 2018 announcing your retirement like people love you and i think it's because you're so genuine like you're so authentic in in a sport that like has had some controversy and you keep showing up.

18:32Even if you're not, you're second, you're like, you're going to keep going. And then when you got first, everybody just was so stoked. And then your announcement was also so authentic, which is really cool. I interview like a lot of athletes that have done a big wild idea or like Olympians. And afterwards, there's kind of this like depression after you've achieved this huge wild idea. And for many years, you know, winning Boston was like your wild idea. So you won it and then you got to like keep going, which is awesome. You just had continued success, success. But has there been any like, I don't know, lull or like let down or kind of weird feeling shifts in the last year since retiring from the marathon officially?

19:18Des Linden:Yeah, I think, I feel like the biggest moment will be in Boston this year, like going back as an ambassador and like kind of watching passively. But I'll also have some fun stuff lined up. I'm going to jump in and run with my husband. And I think it'll make me kind of wrap my mind around this is different. It's not like gone. It's not done. It's just different. You can still participate in running, enjoy the process, be at races. It might not be what it was, but it still can be great in a new way. But isn't that nice? I used to want to puke before even a cross-country race. Now you don't have to have that nervousness.

20:02You can just enjoy it.

20:05Des Linden:Yeah, it's a mixed thing. I feel like that was one of the things that was missing by the end of my career. And you don't realize how unique and special that is, which sounds silly, but it's so great to be in a position to be able to be nervous and excited and have those jitters. And it's pretty limited. So to me, it was like when that was gone, that was like, OK, this doesn't feel as exciting anymore. Now that Des is retired from professional marathoning, she finally has the time to chase a few new wild ideas. She's trading pavement for dirt and turning her focus to trail running. Her first big test is a legendary Marathon de Sables in Morocco.

20:52She'll be racing across the Sahara Desert in temperatures that can reach 120 degrees. So like, what's next for you? I feel like ultra running, trail running is like caught your attention.

21:07Des Linden:Yes, but I think immediately what I do have planned this year is MDS, Marathon de Sable. And it's a stage race in Morocco in the Sahara Desert, self-supported. You're carrying all your own stuff. And I think it's just so foreign relative to everything I've done that it's going to force me to think differently, train differently, prepare differently. And that's sort of what I need right now is to just step away from the marathon and try something completely new. I'm so excited for you. So you're going from like repeats on a road or track to like training for some crazy race where you have to carry your own water and food in Morocco and the Saharan Desert.