LIVE RECORDING with Alex Honnold at Outside Festival

0:00Alex Honnold:One of the things I've really gained from climbing is that climbing is scary and you're scared climbing all the time. Like I'm scared climbing all the time. And so I think that having that exposure to fear all the time helps you to parse out when it really matters or not. And I think that's an important life skill, basically. Alex Honnold is one of the most well-known climbers in the world, best known for his free solo climb of El Capitan, the 3 ,000-foot vertical wall of granite in Yosemite National Park. In June of 2017, Alex completed the climb in just under four hours with no ropes, no harness, and no safety net.

0:38It was just him, the rock, and an incredible amount of focus. Before he made that ascent in 2017, most people thought free soloing El Cap just wasn't possible. But Alex changed that. He redefined what humans are capable of and in the process became one of the most recognized athletes in the world. Earlier this summer, we recorded a live episode of Wild Ideas Worth Living with Alex at the Outside Festival in Denver, Colorado. This wasn't my first time interviewing Alex. We actually spoke in 2018. His film Free Solo wasn't out yet, so it was before all the attention and awards. The movie, directed by Jimmy Chin and Chai Vasarely, went on to win an Oscar, and Alex's life changed in a big way.

1:25Since then, he's gone after many more climbing projects, grown the Honnold Foundation to support solar energy projects, gotten married, and become a father. I'm Shelby Stanger, and this is Wild Ideas Worth Living, an REI Co-op Studios production presented by Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard. Here's our live conversation, recorded in front of a packed crowd at the Outside Festival.

1:58All right, Denver! We are so excited to be here. A climber named Emily Harrington told me that climbing with Alex is like playing basketball with Michael Jordan. And interviewing him is even better because he makes you feel so comfortable. He just pointed out some guy changing behind us in the middle of the street. And now I feel really relaxed.

2:20Alex Honnold:And you're in the one who sees a very handsome man down the street right there. He was very handsome. It's insane. So we're excited to be here. On the podcast, we talk about wild ideas. Those are ideas that scare you, will keep you up at night, and that if you pursue them along the way, you're probably going to want to turn back and be scared again. But if you keep going, your life will never be the same again. And one wild idea often leads to another and another and your life, you know, wild idea, free solo, El Cap, and then you get an Oscar and it just keeps going and going and spreading like wildfire.

2:56Alex Honnold:Most ideas end that way. You guys should try it. Yeah. Most people here know you from your big moment of free soloing El Cap. When was the very first time you had the wild idea to do it? Like, did it hit you like a bolt of lightning or was it kind of a slow burn and it just came to you? No, it's kind of a natural progression. I'd soloed a few things in Yosemite. I free soloed Half Tone, which is a 2 ,000-foot wall, kind of similar to El Cap, for those that don't know. And so after I free soloed Half Tone, I was kind of like, oh, El Cap is the next obvious thing. But it actually wound up taking me, I guess, eight more years before I actually did the free solo.

3:31Alex Honnold:It was one of those things where I was like, I'm going to do that next season. And then the next season, I drove in Yosemite and looked at the wall. It's like, I'm definitely not doing that. It was like totally, totally insane. And so that process repeated itself for many seasons until eventually I've sort of put the effort in and started actually working on it. But it was kind of a dream on the back burner for many years. I love that. And how did you know you were ready? Like, you'd put in a lot of work. Just talk to me a little bit about some of the things that went into it. Because it wasn't like, oh, yeah, just 10 years and then I did it.

4:01Yeah.

4:02Alex Honnold:No, I mean, which part do you even want to focus on? Because that's kind of the whole thing. there's the six years, I guess, where I consistently went to Yosemite, looked at the wall and thought that's impossible and then didn't actually try to work on the free solo at all. But during those six years, I still worked on tons of other projects and I free soloed other walls and things that were smaller but harder in some ways or, you know, whatever, like the things that pushed me in different ways. And I went on expeditions to different parts of the world and I still learned quite a lot as a climber.

4:27Alex Honnold:And so for those six years, it's not as if I was directly working on the free solo of El Cap, but I was definitely broadening myself as a rock climber and sort of building the skills you know now in retrospect i can see that i was building the skills required to eventually get there but so then eventually the mental i sort of made a little flip to switch so to speak you know i was like you know what i think i maybe can do this i need to actually start putting the work in directly to to do this this project and so then and just by happy coincidence that's when the the filmmakers behind the film free solo uh approached me about doing a feature documentary i basically just decided that i was going to start putting the effort in to to do the the actual climb and so i was like oh perfect timing now i've got built-in team some people to help me with this whole process because it's a tremendous amount of effort to to work on a wall like that um for those who don't know i mean it's a lot of like hiking ropes to the summit and rappelling down and hauling the ropes back out and it's just it's just a lot of toil and i was like you know having having a team there will make this quite a bit easier and so then i spent two years working on the actual climb and so when you ask about what the preparation was you're kind of like what's eight years of broadening and pushing and then two years of direct training on the actual route.

5:31Alex Honnold:I mean, it's just a long journey. Not, not every big idea should take that long, hopefully. But the mindset, the mindset part where you're like, okay, now I'm going to do that. Can you just walk me a little bit through like when that switched when you're like, I'm going to go all in. Yeah. So I guess the two years that I was working on the climb, I mean, I started it deciding that I was going to put in all the effort and find out if it was possible. I mean, I didn't know if it, if it would ever feel possible or not, but I realized that, that it was never going to look easy. That was kind of the thing is that for years I've been driving to Yosemite hoping that some season I would look up at the wall and think now it looks easy.

6:05Alex Honnold:I'm going to do that this year. And I kind of realized that it was just never going to look easy and it was never going to be casual. And so I was like, I'm going to have to put in all the prep work and the training and the time, everything without knowing whether or not I can do it and just find out. And so, you know, it's not as if I just, I don't know when you ask like, what was the moment? I'm like, well, there wasn't really a moment. I just sort of acted as if I was going to do it eventually and did all the prep work and kept working as if I was going to do it but I didn't really know right up until kind of near the end I mean I don't know it's like a classic fake it till you make it kind of thing yeah you're like I don't know if I can do it but I'm just going to do everything as if I'm going to do it and then by the time I got to the point where I had finished all the preparation done everything I need to do I was like well of course I'm going to do it because I'm incredibly well prepared I'm well trained for conditions are perfect like everything is lined up and so then it feels like an inevitability where it's like obviously I will do this because I've just spent years working towards it.

6:55Alex Honnold:But while you're working towards it, you're like, well, who knows? But I think what's so important is you said it's never easy. Like it's, it's never going to look easy. Eventually you kind of just have to, you got to prepare as much as possible and then you got to go do it. Yeah. I mean, sort of by definition, if you're doing something that you've never done before, and especially if it's something that's never been done full stop, you know, even if you believe you can do it sort of like, well, you don't know until you actually do it. So it's like, it's always going to be a little scary and a little nerve-wracking and a little like I mean just like we've never done a live podcast before so this is a big experiment right here I mean we are and we are gripped you know this is this is full on so you free sold El Cap it was a huge moment you're the man no one in the world has ever done anything like it it's it was incredible a few months later you won the Oscar life got pretty wild Prince William was in the mix like there was some crazy stuff will you just give us like a quick highlight of like some of the wild stuff that happened post-Oscar well yeah so I called it my deployment to Hollywood because uh when the film came out I did six months basically of non-stop events promoting the film and the whole thing kind of snowballed where it's like the you know it's a it's a documentary about rock climbing so it started with this limited release in a handful of theaters places like uh like Boulder and Denver honestly um just because you know that you'll be able to fill a theater there and then as the film did well it kind of rolled out more broadly and more people saw and it wound up taking off way more than any of us ever could have guessed or hoped I mean it wound up being a whole thing but so it was six months of just non-stop events and I was like I mean it's pretty crazy and then in some ways it actually felt a little bit like a athletic training because the the events ramped in intensity for the whole time like you start with like the audio guild society awards and you're like who cares about the audio guild society or like whatever you know and then and then you go to the BAFTAs which is like the British Academy Awards and you're like oh we just met Prince William you're like that seems a little fancier like uh and then you know and then eventually yeah it was honestly it was insane yeah I'm sure no I was like oh you could see how royalty dominated Europe for thousands of years because uh no like he had such a regal bearing I was like wow he is an incredible I was like I would follow him into battle I would ride a horse behind him it was like it was it was amazing actually and uh anyway and then it culminates in the Oscars which is like total insane pageantry and just complete whatever.

9:11Alex Honnold:And so it honestly felt like training for an event where you're like, oh, I'm doing longer and longer runs. And then I'm doing my marathon. I'm peaking. And then now I'm going to bed rest for a while. And that's basically what happened after the Oscars. Like, we went to the Oscars. We're going to win. We're like, this is crazy. And then you collapse in a heap. And you're like, I'm so tired. I want to talk about that because, you know, most adventurers will do this huge adventure. Like, they'll hike the Pacific Crest Trail or the Appalachian Trail or, you know, do a big Everest. and then afterwards there's this kind of like post-adventure blues.

9:41And when I talked to you, you didn't really have that, which I thought was pretty amazing because you just did like the biggest thing you've always wanted to do and you didn't really have this, oh great, what now, moment, which I think is really important because you had a tactic that you didn't even really plan but you did.

9:57Alex Honnold:Yeah, I mean that's not to say that I've never had post-goal blues because I mean I think part of the whole fun of having a project, having a big idea, having something to work on is that it gives you direction and purpose and like something to get out of bed and something to train for and something to be psyched for and so certainly throughout the year i have moments where it's like i finished some big project or i you know accomplished some climb that i'm excited about and then you're left with a month of kind of like what do i do with myself now like i need a new project i need a new goal i need something but but we were talking specifically about the free solo of el cap and whether or not i had some kind of big come down post free selling el cap and in that case I didn't because part of the strategy for free selling all cap was that was that so I knew that the free selling all cap is largely a mental challenge it's like the psychological aspect is you know physically I've climbed all cap many times with rope I've climbed it without falling off with a rope so I knew that I could physically climb all cap I mean that's hard obviously but it's not that's not the cutting edge part the doing without the rope part is the part that makes it really hard and that's basically a mental challenge and so no big deal well you know and so I also knew that that if I freestall adult cap it'd be the biggest thing I'd ever do you know that'd be a I knew it'd be big and I knew I'd be super proud of it but I didn't want to make it bigger than it needed to be because I knew that it was already predominantly a mental challenge and so by putting it on a pedestal making it feel like this is the biggest thing of your life this is the craziest climb you ever do this is like this means so much that almost makes it too big and more of a mental challenge and so I felt like for me part of the process was to actually make it more part of my normal year.

11:27Alex Honnold:And so I was looking at my Yosemite seasons as training for other expeditions that I was doing throughout the year. So right after Yosemite, I went to Alaska to climb some other big mountains. And I was looking at Alaska as training for an expedition I did to Antarctica later that winter. And so I was kind of like, whether I succeed or not in Yosemite this season, either way, I'm training for Alaska. Alaska is preparation for Antarctica. I'm climbing all these different walls. It's all part of the normal cycle of being a professional climber. It's kind of like it takes a lot of the mental stress off achieving this big, you know, historic personal first, whatever you want to call it.

11:56Alex Honnold:It's kind of like, oh, I'm just training in the valley. And I have a goal while I'm in the valley, but really it's all just practice for Alaska. And so I think that that whole strategy kept me from experiencing the same kind of come down that you're talking about. It wasn't like I'm training for the Olympics. You know, I either win or lose, but either way, I'm just done afterward. It was kind of like, well, literally the next week I was in Alaska climbing other big walls with friends. I was kind of like, well, that's... So the moral of the story is when you have a wild idea, have like a couple more wild ideas.

12:20You just have to keep going and going and going. Um, it's awesome. No, it is good advice though.

12:24Alex Honnold:Yeah, no, I mean, honestly, and I knew that what I was doing in Alaska was not like, didn't really matter. You know, we climbed a couple of new routes. They were kind of stupid. No one to ever climb again. And the things we did in Antarctica were cooler and I'm proud of those. And you know, it was a great expedition, but again, it's, it's trivial converted free selling all cap. But the key for me was to look past the, the one goal. You know, it's not as if that's my end point and my life will end when I do this. I was kind of like, oh, this is my goal. But I've got a whole year laid out ahead of that.

12:51Alex Honnold:And then, I mean, specifically with Free Selling All Cap, the film came out the next year because they do a year of post-production, which is pretty normal. Then the whole crazy six-month deployment to Hollywood, which was like a whole experience. And so then by the time that's wrapped up, you're kind of like, oh, it's been a couple of years. I've been doing stuff nonstop. And you're just like, life is moving on. It's like time to set new goals and come up with new ideas. Well, I want to talk about one of those next ideas, which you ended up getting married. You have two daughters, June and Alice.

13:18I think we have a picture of your family somewhere up here. But I'm really curious, you know, what's it like being a dad?

13:25Alex Honnold:That's great. I suspect half the audience probably knows it. Yeah, it's amazing. No, I mean, it was always... I mean, actually, so bringing it back to Free Salongel Cap and whatever, I mean, part of the reason that I felt some pressure to do some of those climbing goals is that I knew that I wanted to have a family at some point. You know, I didn't want to live in my van by myself for my entire life. Like, I knew that eventually I'd live in a house and have a family. but do you sometimes like miss it oh yeah i know i mean it's awesome i mean i love living in the van well i mean of course yeah but but on the other hand i mean i've chosen to have a family like i just don't want to be 65 years old living in my van by myself like that's that's sad and and with all respect to like the eight people here who are 65 living in their van by themselves there's probably a couple people here who live in a van and they're 65 so i was like oh yeah i mean i have many friends who are still on that exact same path and i'm like you know what power to you but but i that's not that's not ever the future that i saw for myself like i want to have a family i want to have grandkids someday i want to do the whole thing but i kind of knew that that some of the goals that i had for climbing made sense to do pre-family to some extent because they're just so all-encompassing that it makes sense to just go all in on some of the climbing projects before you have little kids and now that i have little kids i'm like thank goodness i did because it turns out having little kids is uh is a whole journey of itself what are some of the funniest things they recently said oh there they are oh there they are beautiful you guys are gorgeous Okay, so June and Alice, I mean, they have to say some funny things.

14:47You're their dad. Anything that surprised you recently or they said that you were just like, oh, my God. No, I don't know.

14:53Alex Honnold:My three-year-old, the bigger one. So this photo is maybe taken a year ago, so now they're quite a bit. I mean, they changed so quickly at this age. But so the bigger one, I mean, she basically sees me packing my bag nonstop. Because I'm still climbing outside probably four days a week or something. And so almost every day she's seeing me unpacking a backpack, repacking a backpack, packing snacks, doing a thing. and she doesn't know anything about rock climbing yet per se i mean she sees us training in the home gym and going outside and going bouldering and things but she doesn't like know what that really means but so i was just telling i just tell him it all i'm going mountain climbing we're going to the mountains we're climbing and climbing mountains and so she's always like i want to go mountain climbing mostly because she loves eating snacks she loves little bars and things and so any excuse for her to eat a bar and like go to the mountains i was gonna ask you like tactics to get your kids outside but that's kind of it snacks like all about snacks which is funny though because it makes you realize that so much of being an adult outdoors is also about eating snacks it's basically like all what I call all technical snacks like all bars and energy products and all that are basically candy it's like adult candy that you get to eat when you're exercising and I'm kind of like I love exercising probably because I love candy if I go snowboarding I literally stop every run and get hot chocolate yeah exactly exactly I'm sort of like yeah you see it in the kids and you're like oh you shouldn't eat all that candy and then you're like actually wait that's literally all I do and I do this like all the time because I'm outside so much like that seems So I think a lot of people are wondering, are you still soloing now that you're a family man, you've got kids?

16:12Alex Honnold:Yeah, yeah, I am. Not as intense, not as hardcore, maybe, though. I mean, I just did a film project a couple months ago that was kind of the first hard thing that I've done in a while. Yeah, I definitely am. Definitely spending less time doing easy soloing. I'm just at home a lot more. I mean, I think that the biggest difference with having kids is that I try to be at home for, like, basically wake up in bedtime every day. and so I'm just there for family meals and you know I'm just at home a lot more and so the nature of my adventures have kind of shifted in time I'm sort of like oh I can go adventuring from nine to five during the day you know it's like I actually I haven't even thought about it but as now I'm a professional climber in the real sense of the word where I work in nine to five but uh but I try to climb outside you know in those tight hours I like freaking hammer it back down the mountain to like make it back before child care goes home things like that you're like oh you know the nanny leaves in an hour you're like oh no I have two thousand feet of vert to just hammer down yeah the the the The crag that I'm climbing at currently is a 2 ,000-foot descent to get back down to the road.

17:09Alex Honnold:And I've PR'd it twice in the last two weeks, like, setting personal records. Because I'm like, oh, the nanny leaves at 5? I am screwed. You have a recent story where you were out in your neighborhood climbing and something kind of happened and the phone sort of... Yeah, that was the soloing misadventure from two weeks ago or something. Could you just tell that story? Because it's a really great story. Well, or it's a really sad story. My phone died in a tragic mountain accident. Basically, I went out soloing on something that I thought was kind of easy and would be kind of fun. It was kind of just like an angst flat for noon scramble.

17:40Alex Honnold:I was like, oh, I'll just go do a thing. But it was like 50 mile an hour winds and it turns out. And how high up were you? Well, the route was like 1 ,500 feet or so and I was maybe 700. I was like halfway up this wall. And it was the kind of thing where when you hike into the canyon, it's quite windy, but it's kind of warm. So you're like, oh, this is nice. You know, it feels good. Anyway, on the wall, though, it turns out it was insanely windy. And it turned out it was untenable. And I basically had to bail because it was too windy. but then also my phone blew out of my pocket and uh i mean my i was shirtless but my shorts were like billowing up like the michelin man you know and basically and my chalk bag had flipped and everything's flying everywhere and chalk my eyes and my backpack straps are slapping you non-stop and you're like ah i was like can't see and i can't you know you're getting buffeted like pushed by wind back and forth i was like this is kind of intense anyway but uh but my phone was also my car key and i was all alone in the middle of nowhere and i was kind of like oh now i'm screwed because it was kind of like afternoon i was kind of like even if i make it to the top then i have to circle back around the mountain to get back to the base to find my phone because I need the key otherwise I'd have to just quest back to the highway and try to hitchhike home or basically all the options are really bad and I was like I'm so hosed and so I wound up down climbing the whole thing and I found the phone even though it's totally broken and shattered it still worked to unlock my car so I managed to drive home.

18:50Okay I'm not a rock climber but down climbing sounds yeah good job Alex but um.

18:54Alex Honnold:Actually I mean so the real story the the crux of the pit the crux of the thing is 10d is like 180 foot 10d pitch for anyone that rock climbs and I'd climbed 175 feet of the pitch, and I was basically right below the anchor, and I couldn't really do the last five feet because it was just too crazy windy, and it was like thin lie backing up a thing. And I was past the crux already, but it was just too intense, and I wound up having to down climb the whole crux and the whole thing. And I was like, oh, it was all a botch. But that's the kind of thing that you try to avoid. This might be a silly question to all you rock climbers, but is down climbing solo even scarier than going up?

19:28Alex Honnold:Not if you're well-practiced. I mean it looks terrifying like I don't like going down anything once I've climbed up it yeah well the fundamentals of it are that you're assisted by gravity so it's easier like think of it that way I mean because it is technically easier to go down than up think of it that way but on the other hand it's harder to see your feet it's harder to see the holds uh and also it's just I don't know I practice a lot of down I've had a lot of ups and downs in my life with like going up things down climbing things bailing off things and so I I think I've done more down climbing than anybody like ever just because most people don't don't have an opportunity to down climb that much but so if you practice it it's not that crazy okay i probably won't but i've i've i've liked that idea um how is but how has becoming a parent changed your relationship with risk well it's hard to follow up this harrowing story of misadventure with i know but i love that you're doing this and i love you're still getting after it but your kids might get to the age where they're like dad like can you just not or i don't know yeah and then maybe i'd be like you know if you ask me not to maybe i wouldn't but i mean the whole point is that i'm trying to do things that that feel safe for the most part i mean this whole thing went kind of sideways and you're kind of like oh sometimes sometimes you make mistakes like that and it doesn't work out but in general i'm doing way less easy solo i'm just doing more time training my garage like going sport climbing just doing things close to the house keeping the hours tighter being with the kids more.

20:51I don't know.

20:51Alex Honnold:But then, yeah, I was saying I did a film thing a couple months ago and I was like, God, I just love, love climbing walls though. It's so, it's so great. Every year, Capital One and the REI Co-op MasterCard program proudly donate$2 million to the REI Cooperative Action Fund. The fund supports hundreds of nonprofit partners that are creating a more equitable outdoors for everyone. You've even heard some of their stories on the podcast. In addition to supporting the REI Cooperative Action Fund, Capital One and REI have partnered on the REI Co-op MasterCard, bringing card members excellent card benefits that inspire more outdoor adventures.

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21:53Tell us about you recently went to Sedona and did some climbing up there. It looked amazing. I'm like, what are you getting at? What did you do?

21:59Alex Honnold:Well, there was one thing I couldn't ask you about. I wanted to ask you about Sedona.

22:06Alex Honnold:She asked me about this film project, and I was like, well, it's NDA, so I'm not really supposed to talk about it, but who cares? You know, there's a camera. We talked about it anyway. It's like, yeah, no, it's fine. but no Sedona was a family trip we did I mean we did a two-week family trip to Sedona and and climbed non-stop I mean to me that's honestly the ultimate way of balancing family with with climbing so we went to the whole family got every beat did a nice thing literally climbed every day you know happy with the kids in a new place pushing the stroll around it was just so wonderful and like new rock and uh we were so psyched did yeah I did a lot of climbs that I was very happy about how does it work with you and Sonny when you take the kids climbing like how do you guys work as a team so you can all climb we kind of alternate or we have childhood in this case we brought uh my in-laws my wife's parents climb as well but they're they're old and pretty casual and so it's an easy way so like we brought a like a nanny who was with us for a bit and then my main climbing partner is also like a lifelong friend josh basically lives in his van um but he's like great with the kids definitely van lifers here yeah i'm sure they're i'm sure there must be but they're not as scrappy as josh i bet he's like really scrappy but he's like one of my longest climbing friends and so I mean I guess the the long and short of is that we try to assemble the right community around us where it's like between the in-laws the nanny my friend who's really good with kids and then all of us sort of cycling around with different partners and you know taking turns and doing all the things then everybody gets to climb as much as they need I love that um so you've been taking your your family on climbs but I've also seen you in like a lot of movies where you're helping someone else with a big goal did something with Tommy I just watched Emily Harrington's movie Girl Climber which is actually here at the outside festival where she free climbs golden gate and she's like one of three people to do it and you're like you're coaching her and you're funny in the right times but you're also like pushing her in a way that no one else can push you because you're also the only guy who's like really done it and so she respects you but I'm curious how you enjoy helping others succeed I mean you also took your mom on El Cap which is so cool yeah definitely would never call myself a mentor of any kind And I would say that I try to be a good friend and good partner and help people do things that they're trying to do.

24:12Alex Honnold:I mean, I think I'm sure everybody here has experienced that with like crewing for a race or like helping a friend in a long run or things like that. I mean, sometimes it's like, you know, I mean, I have lots of my own personal athletic goals and I'm working towards my own things a lot. But every once in a while, you're kind of like, it's fun to support your friends. It's fun to take turns on things. It's like it's nice to feel like the pressure is on somebody else and you're just out supporting them having a nice day. And you're like, today is their day to succeed. And I'm just here to have fun and enjoy the mountains.

24:36Alex Honnold:It's like, I mean, I kind of love doing that. But also I think it kind of naturally happens as you get older a little bit. You know, I mean, some of it, I mean, like with El Cap, like with Emily climbing El Cap, kind of like I've spent so many days on El Cap. It's just easy for me to help. You know, I'm kind of like I know where to go for the different things. And I know how to do the rappelling and how to get into the positions. And I just spent a lot of time up there. And so it's easy to help other people. Like, oh, here's how you do it. Like, let's go do it together. But you're also like really funny while you're doing it.

25:03So I'm curious how you use humor in these high-stakes moments. Because there are some times where it's a little precarious, and you just make this totally funny joke.