#127 Bear Grylls - Retelling Jesus' Life as a Thriller

25:00Bear Grylls:Well, it's fresh eyes that is how I encountered this, and it's fresh eyes for people that I want. And that's why I think people are responding to this because if you arrive with the preconception of like, this is a book about this and this is what I know, it's like, you know, I want people to start from ground zero. This is where I started. And it's like, I think the other factor is we've had 2 ,000 years of the story being ruined. And I really feel that. I feel there's 2 ,000 years of an awful lot of religion has ruined it. you know dress it up in sort of a lot of sort of you know corrupt churches and corrupt sex and corrupt sort of you know religions and i don't know it's just like we've done a really good job as humankind of spoiling a really beautiful story if it's true and i kind of feel like in my own life as well it's my own journey of faith was that as well i like i found i found i had a really beautiful natural faith as a kid, you know, where it was like, I know that it's just, there's a connection, you know, it was no more than that.

26:06Bear Grylls:And then I went to school and suddenly like everyone was in speaking in Latin and white robes, it was all very full. You know, I had a mini version of what humans are experiencing 2 ,000 years of thinking this may be, this is what God is telling me not to do this, you know, speak in Latin, behave yourself and shut up, you know? So for me, it's been a lifetime of unraveling that to find actually the, that's the bathwater, dirty, rubby, was probably going to make you sick. But the baby in this thing, if you can take him out of the bathwater is amazing. And I want people to experience that baby, the real story of how it really was to have walked that land with this man.

26:49Bear Grylls:I want people to find that afresh. There's something, I mean, finding it afresh implies that, you know, I can pick up this book and I've never heard this story before and I'm discovering this. But also, if you are familiar with the New Testament, you pick this up and hopefully it'll be new. Like if somebody came to you and said, you know, I've heard about this Jesus guy, but I've never really understood the story before. Would you say to them, like, this book that I've written will take you through that story. Or would you say to them, tell you what, go and read the four gospels, then come back and read this as a kind of commentary or retelling.

27:24Like, would this be a starting point for people?

27:26Bear Grylls:Because I think it is a starting point. But the irony is, it's also like at whatever level you're at, it works. And I think ultimately you're never going to improve on the Bible. The Bible is always going to be number one, you know, because you can't improve on, you know. But I think it's stepping stones. It's cold. It's hard for people to go to cold to boiling in one step sometimes. And I've had this experience with one of my best friends, who's a brilliant brain, like you, an Oxford guy, you know, strong sort of atheist guy. And he, I remember saying to him years ago, I said, you should just say, do you know that you should just read the full gospel?

28:02Bear Grylls:he goes no you're right I've got to just I just got to do that because I actually haven't studied I've just got I'm gonna do it and then kind of didn't or then dipped in and got a bit bored because as you say it's sparse yeah to me to when you when you I think when you have faith you it's like the scales come off a little bit and you see those the sparsity is the beauty yes and the honey is there but it's hard to just say read it so I kind of wanted to take people on a bit of a journey with with that and that journey takes many forms and that will play will play a part those those decisions that you made like some of them are seemingly a little bit arbitrary like like the five magi not four not six like did you just sort of pluck that out of out of thin air did you just have to go with something i want to trip people up on what is what they think of as is real yeah when actually it's just convention right okay you know i wanted people to go, hold on.

28:57And most people would just skip over that. But I quite like it when I get theologians going, oh, I kind of was interested in that. Mary always thought she rode on a donkey to Bethlehem. But actually, there's nothing about that. The donkey was Jesus rode on a donkey into Jerusalem for that final week as a symbol of servitude. I kind of like tripping people up on things people think is real to help them find out actually what is maybe real. And along the way there's, you know, because again, I think that's been my journey of like, I'm just, you get so used to hearing people talk at you from a church and that goes in here, but it doesn't go in here.

29:39So sometimes it's like you need to disconnect to reconnect. Yeah. And that, um, chronology that you were talking about before, when you sat down to put this together, you have to make some probably relatively tough choices because they're quite thematically relevant. Like if Jesus flips the tables near the end of his life, that's maybe part of the reason why he's arrested and crucified. Because at the beginning of his life, then it's not. Did you just sort of sit down in the jungle and work it out for yourself? Did you consult theologians? How did you put that together?

30:11Bear Grylls:No, that bit we did really carefully with theologians. And he does flip the table at the end. At the end as well. But he also does at the beginning. Yeah, because doing it twice is the solution, right? Which was the solution. And sometimes that sort of thing works because that's accurate. You know, one gospel says it's done the beginning and on a separate occasion. And then there was another, that epic sort of final week is important to get, you know, that chronology absolutely right. But exactly when he crossed from Galilee to feed the 5 ,000 and to free the demon-possessed man in here, and the, you know, that journey, we kind of, you know, you just got to kind of eventually commit to one way, haven't you?

30:51Bear Grylls:And that's why there were these epic Zoom calls with a lot of theologians where eventually go, let's do it like that. But it's interesting. Some of the discussions were like things like, but hold on, Jesus didn't have brothers and sisters. The Catholics will really fervently believe he didn't have brothers and sisters. And it's like, and I'd written it in this early bit of brothers and sisters, but of course, and the Aramaic translation of brothers and sisters actually implies a wider family of cousins. And it was like, let's not even trip people up on it. I don't want to put that line in that Jesus about Jesus, brothers and sisters, and then lose Catholics who go, well, because I don't agree with that, I'm going to discard the rest of the book.

31:32Those are called stumbling blocks for people. So just remove it. Take that

31:38Bear Grylls:bit out don't be a stumbling block let's get people to the the reals meet rather than getting sort of hung up because the herbs we're arguing about the herbs yeah this meal you know that's interesting i hadn't thought about the sort of brothers so just take it we just took that line out and we did that a lot on things i was going to ask are there other bits that you just sort of removed yes lots of things that in the first draft it's like actually that's going to be tricky for people of different of different face and stuff but like but it doesn't add anything to the story right so let's just just keep it flowing can you think of an example not not to make well i think have a position on it but the kind of debate that you thought wasn't worth having in the book i think um i think that was a key one right the brothers yeah yeah because of course it's sort of it's the question of the perpetual virginity of mary right if he has brothers then yeah mary's had other children and if he doesn't then maybe she didn't exactly i can see why that's at least in a project like this, worth just sort of left untouched perhaps.

32:39Yeah, because it doesn't, don't be a stumbling block. All I want for this is to be a bridge for

32:45Bear Grylls:people, a gate for people. It's what it's proving. That's why I get these people of so many cultures and faiths writing about this. It's like, it's an accessible way of finding out this love story. And I don't want to be a stumbling block. It's why we've changed the names. That's why we've gone back to the old names and the old places. So you arrive at it fresh. Yeah. You spoke on another podcast about this analogy that you draw. Only you mentioned how people have sort of messed up the story and gotten it wrong over the past few thousand years. And I think it's pretty easy to point to examples of where people have gone astray.

33:19And you've compared this in the past to Elvis Presley?

33:23Bear Grylls:Well, first of all, we're all part of that story of messing it up. So I'm not sat here going, you know, religion's messed it up. You've messed it up. You've messed it up. I've messed it up, you know, is the truth. I've messed it up because none of us tell the story of Christ very well. So when my Elvis thing was like, most people love Elvis, but we think the Elvis impersonator is a little bit weird, which is sort of probably a fair description, you know? And I feel that a little bit about faith. If you actually get to the meat of this, of the story of Christ, what his nature, which was radical and free and laughter.

34:04Like the Pharisees, the main accusation for those three years of his ministry against him is that he was a glutton and a drunkard. At which point Jesus would have roared with laughter. He said, on one hand you're saying to my cousin John, you're like this, and to me you're saying, it's not how we imagine Jesus. Right, exactly. So I feel like the church has, and we are part of messing that up.

34:28Bear Grylls:Because we're formalized and we've put it in religion. We've made it all very kind of like, it's our human nature. We like to put things in a box, but love doesn't live in a box. So we're always going to kind of mess it up. I am part of that, even to the extent. I mean, I'll give you an example. Like the other day, my eldest son, his girlfriend, who's wonderful, she goes, just tell me about the faith stuff. She was reading, she saw the book. and i kind of stumbled through some really and after about three minutes i thought i could see jesse look at me going well oh it's like you're making absolutely no sense and it's like i just i've explained this so badly and um it's like trying to describe a really sort of i don't know trying to like describe swimming to somebody who's never seen water you jump in this thing and it's all around it keeps you up can feel pretty scary feels like wet and like crazy but end like you know yeah and she was so sweet looked at me like you're really making no sense and i thought thank god love shines and spreads without thank goodness it's not all dependent on us because i don't do a very good job of that so i include myself in the messing up of the story over 2 000 years we've all been part of that it's amazing to say that because because of the way the book turns out so um i guess you know you can think about it a bit more and consult people if you're having issues but that makes me think i understand when someone if someone just comes to you and says tell me about this faith thing tell me about this christianity thing it's like whoa where do i even begin you must have had that feeling right in the book like did you write this in order did you just sit down it was a terrifying thing it was a terrifying thing but i kind of like really just felt compelled to try and start and i knew where i was going to start which was picking up the phone to andrew who's who's just become over the years a brilliant brilliant friend and is probably the best theological mind that I know and is really sort of calm and measured and just brilliant and just said how would we do this you know where would you take that chronology for example what I knew I wanted to do was to get the spirit to get like yeah right you know to to strip away to show why was he called a glutton and a drunkard why why would why did everyday people just want to be with him why would people fight to get through the crowd just to touch his cloak why did the religious elite fear him so much what was it about this guy that is so the opposite of what i was brought up thinking jesus was about what why you know that's what i wanted to get to and then it was just assembling a team to help kind of get get it accurate because ultimately i kind of really cared about that so much so that even when things were right i actually we pulled the whole first print run of like there were just few things i'd seen after i thought hold on that's not that's not quite right oh really you know and it's like i just felt this has got to be right yeah and it's why now i do stand actually with you know tentative confidence behind it not not total confidence because it's sort of human it's going to have some few flaws but actually with a good degree of confidence that's why actually now when i see these emails come through from the professors i'm now my confidence has grown with it yeah it's a 99.9 percent of the time it's like i was expecting it to have holes but actually good job and that's down to a good team on it so this was on its print run and it was like ready to go and you sort of there were like 50 000 copies ready to go and you and you pulled it i paid to pull it yeah and it's like was it something in particular or was it just like a vibe it was like three or four things and it was just like it's just like i knew we'd we'd it's just it's just got to be right i can't you know it's like a feeling isn't it yeah and i ended up pulling it and end up at the end of it the editor said we we weren't then for a month redid it he said we're good to go he said do you know how many changes you've done since you told me it was as good as we're ever going to get three months ago he said you've done 1200 changes you know so it's like you know i almost know every page every kind of paragraph on this book i bet but but not out of anything but apart from like it's brought me closer and closer to the nature of jesus that i first kind of fell in love with and is like being such a beautiful part of my life and and i need it i really find it like for me it's like bread and butter and honey every day that uh this story you you don't start with mary i mean you you do but there's this this very brief prologue where you sort of flash forward to the road to Emmaus.

39:09And you've got these two disciples walking along the road. The first thing I wrote for this book was that page. I was wondering if you wrote that, because a lot of authors will finish a book and then they'll go back and they'll figure out how to open it. But why was... It was the first thing I wrote. I don't know. I just really... Why was that the place to start? Because it was a revelation of me of like, I wonder what point the penny dropped with them all.

39:31Bear Grylls:Those people who spent all this time with Jesus. When do you think the penny dropped? because you think like this divinity was shown all the time and yet i kind of find it reassuring those disciples are regular people and like you probably wake up the next day and you're kind of already questioning yourself yeah hold on but that that guy who was frothing and foaming at the mouth and then was like all that arm that was here is like hold on maybe you know yeah and I don't know I just love that scene of like even at the end when they were when he told them so I mean he tells them once gently he tells them twice you know about what's going to happen to you I will be and eventually he's sitting there again I will be tortured I will be crucified and I will rise again on the third day it's like no no no metaphors you know it's like he spoke his stories and metaphor all the time it's like this is clear now listen to me you know boom boom book.

40:30Bear Grylls:And even then, they're not anticipating it. They just really think it's the end. And I just love that bit of Jesus being playful. I mean, I remember before writing this book, reading a 300-page book on just the playful nature of Jesus. Again, something kind of like I'd never known, thought about, but so playful all the time. And I like that idea of him toying with them as he reveals on that road, saying, tell me what's been happening. And they go, you idiot, what do you what do you mean tell you what you must be the only person in the world that doesn't know what's happened the last few days and that part's actually in the gospel isn't it where they say you must be the only guy who's not he's not totally and i like that and he's like let me let me let me you know and he starts and then they go it's that wonderful line of uh did not our hearts burn within us because that's the start for me that was always a place to start the story.

41:23Bear Grylls:Like now I want you to go, why? Why? Why does this make your heart burn within you? And it's the ultimate question of life, really. Yeah. I think it's an important decision that you make to not change the words of Jesus. But inevitably you have to do some things with Jesus. So for example, when you're talking about his upbringing with John the Baptist, his cousin, and at one point, for example, you describe John as being a bit sort of boisterous and telling jokes and Jesus as being the more sort of quiet one. So you do have to make some decisions. I suppose you didn't have to, but you chose to make some decisions as sort of giving Jesus like, I guess like personality traits, especially in his younger life that, again, was that like theologically informed?

42:10Was that a council of theologians on Zoom or was that you just thinking, this is what I imagine it would have been like? I think that's okay.

42:14Bear Grylls:I felt, you know, it's a line. It's just beginning to introduce this nature of Jesus because actually you don't get to meet the guy until you're a third of the way through really you know the meat of it happens there yeah yeah so we're just pointing towards his nature and his character in a way but when it comes to actually the first words and the last words they've got to be absolutely right i didn't want to change a single one of those yeah and then did you otherwise write the book in order like you like as in did you just sit down and start with mary and then just yeah and did you decide before you started writing it these are the viewpoints or did you sort of write up to the wedding at Cana and then go, let's go for, how about Thomas now?

42:54And then you go, let's go for, let's go for.

42:56Bear Grylls:No, again, I did that with, with Andrew and with Craig and with another of the theologians, we kind of thought we should be really contrasting, interesting perspectives to get it from. Yeah. That covers all of humanity, basically. So that's why you want the innocent to the sceptic, to the arrogant, to the impulsive, to the broken, to, you know, to the clinical, you know because that's all of us everyone's going to be one of those were the perspectives that didn't were there like names where you were like maybe we could do it from this person's perspective that didn't make it or was it sort of those five i feel we covered it really well it was really it feels beautiful ending with mary maglin yeah as a sort of broken teenager find it and then being encountering jesus and just like she's so all in and and yeah so human with it as well, and very tender sort of way to end, I feel sort of wraps up the quite sort of male middle bit of it.

43:49Bear Grylls:And it's, I don't know. Yeah. Jesus always affirming women. That was the, it felt right. Yeah. Top and tailing the book with it at that. Yeah. I had a, I had a podcast with a scholar called Helen Bond, who wrote a book called Women Remembered, which is this sort of rediscovery of the women, because I mean, And two of the characters that you speak from the perspective of are women. And there's this extraordinary thing in the Gospels where you can read all the way through the narrative. And then right at the end, when Jesus is being crucified, it says, oh, and by the way, there were these women at the cross.

44:27Oh, and by the way, they had been following Jesus and funding his ministry from their own pocket. Like this whole time when you didn't get a mention until now. And so I agree that it's a worthwhile pursuit.

44:38Bear Grylls:And also you've got Mary Magdalene and then Mary, the mother of Jesus at the foot of the cross. Yes. You know, where's everyone else? Yeah. The answer is - They fled. Fled. Fled in terror, which is kind of reflective of all of us really, you know. And I don't know, there's so many bits I look. First of all, I'm really touched that you know you know it so well and you've you've you've read it so much i think you just got a a great seeking heart it's amazing but um there's certain book parts of the book that really afterwards really have stayed with me and i thought it was interesting it might be interesting for you but one was the first time jesus starts to do anything supernatural which i don't know if you've ever thought about this but it's like where are these 17 years you know between you know temple getting lost say 12 and starting this ministry and i don't know i just get a feeling and again i don't know if this would be right but it kind of feels like natural and right it's like it's almost like he knew as soon as he started to do something supernatural the clock ticks yeah that's what happens mary comes to him and mary is the one and they're at this wedding they're having fun and And they're like, Jesus is letting his hair down.

46:00He's having fun with his friends. And it's his mother. Like, I know I really related to this. It's like, I don't know, you know, maybe with your mother or like, you know, some mother's tugging his seat and going, I need to talk to you. It's like, oh, I'm having fun. I'm having fun. Not now. It's like, but there's a problem. It's not my, and he says, it's not my problem. Yeah. Which is like really interesting. Yeah, that is strange. Because everything for the rest of his life is his problem. Yeah. He's in everybody's element of all their life.

46:24Bear Grylls:Yeah. In a beautiful way. Healing, touching, affirming. correcting guiding helping loving but then he goes this isn't my it's like he knows it's almost feels like he knows that once i begin the clock ticking and it but yet on the other side it's only a mother that knows like when trying to fly trying to fly spread the wings trying to fly and eventually she keeps tugging and then and then what i like is that jesus doesn't even respond then to her. You know what she does? She just tells the servant, she knows she's got him. She just says, do whatever he says. And it's like, boom, the journey begins.

47:05Bear Grylls:And for me, it's like, this is how I try and live my life. That's become a real thing for me in my faith. When I have my struggles and when I have my doubts, I go back to that of like, just do whatever he says and it helps me. Yeah. I'd not thought about that. The prospect of somebody coming. And of course, you know, it's Jesus's mom and this is at the beginning. And it seems like a relatively trivial thing. You know, we've run out of wine, but the idea of someone coming to Jesus for help and him going like, it's none of my business. And yet you're right. As soon as he makes that decision, say, okay, fine.

47:42Then he's not saying that to anybody anymore. Now, like you say, the clock is ticking. I hadn't thought of that as like the sort of watershed moment. Because now people are saying, hold on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. And also it was such an outrageous thing as well. It wasn't like, I mean, I can't, was it 60 gallons or 600 gallons? It was a lot. It was like 200 pictures of this stuff. It wasn't like just like a couple of glasses. Yeah. And it's like, if we're going to start, we're going to, this is a message, which is the message of the New Testament. It's a message of the great story. It's a message of extravagant love.

48:12Yeah. Like we're going to start, we're not going to just give you a thimble full of wine. Yeah. Here we go. Yeah. And then I like Thomas going, hold on.

48:20Bear Grylls:How did he do this? Yeah, because that's the moment you switch over to Thomas, right? And then Thomas is sort of blown away. But then again, it's like sort of a few chapters later, you've got Thomas being like, okay, that was pretty weird, but that's not quite enough. Like surely I've got to see a little bit more. Which he does. But then at the end of his, it's not the miracle. He goes, it wasn't the miracles that changed my heart. It was his love for people, for love for us. You know, it's like the miracles he knows. The head part says this is undeniable. I've seen the guy walk on water. I can't, but it's like it was his love that changed my, really changed me.

48:58Well, the most famous story of Thomas in the Gospels is him sort of demanding to see the wounds of Christ. And Jesus says something really interesting to him, which is he sort of appears to him and says, here I am, Thomas, you know, I touch my wounds. And he says, you believe because you've seen blessed of those who believe without seeing. But I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but if you look at Christian art, it's always Thomas touching the wounds of Jesus. But the gospel never actually says that Thomas touches the wounds. It just says that Thomas demands to see the wounds. And when Jesus shows up and says, here I am, Thomas drops to his knees and says, my Lord and my God.

49:36And there's one reading of the story as if to say, Thomas had thought that what he wanted was like empirical evidence to see the miracle but when actually confronted with the person of jesus he realizes that

49:47Bear Grylls:that's not what it's about i quite like that reading yeah and also like like no no you're good you're good yeah yeah but also i remember that i when i first understood that it used to challenge my faith a bit that so i used to think well hold on maybe jesus could be a ghost he actually didn't feel the blood and the wounds yeah right you know it's like maybe he's a ghost but then the next sly and he sits and breaks bread and he's fishing. And then I found that reassuring. My life as a whole, listen, my faith stumbled. You've just seen, you basically summed up my, that's how my faith goes. And I was a dad and then quite reassuring.

50:28Bear Grylls:And then back to my knees to listen to Mary to say, do whatever he says. You've just witnessed it. That's a great, I've not thought of the moral of the story of the wedding at Cana in that way. The sort of just do what he says. Tell me about you. Tell me, tell me where, because you have such a brilliant understanding of all this, much greater than mine. Where does it leave? How do you feel about all of this? Well, thank you. I'm interested in the New Testament from a sort of scholarly perspective. When did that begin? A few years ago, I think I was talking about religion and theology and I had a biblical scholar on my show.

51:04And as so often happens, you know, I might have an expert in animal consciousness. And so I'll say, okay, this week, I've got to sit down. I've got to learn about how octopus brains works. And as happened with the octopus brains, the same thing happens here, which is actually, this is way more interesting than I thought. And I want to keep looking into this. And so for me, the thing, like, I talk about this and I debate this all the time. And I debate whether Jesus was God or whether he even claimed to be God and all of this kind of stuff. But for me, the undeniable thing is that there's this extraordinary historical figure who did something extraordinary.

51:38And there's something really weird that happened that caused a bunch of people to start quite early on worshipping him, which is a very strange thing to do to a human being, especially in a Jewish culture. And so to me, getting at the Gospels from a scholarly perspective helps me to understand who this historical figure was. That's the thing I'm really interested in, almost in the way that somebody might be really interested in Julius Caesar or in whether the Iliad, you know whether the the trojan war really happened and whether that kind of stuff i i sort of take this approach um that feels to me like that was your point of entry yes yeah yeah

52:17Bear Grylls:but you've had such a journey and you've met so many amazing people you've debated so many different angles and things where how does it had where's it led you to it's led me to well i used to be quite on board with the new atheism stuff i've spoken about this a lot of my show so what You know, like the sort of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, it was really popular. The debates that they were doing, they called it new atheism. And it was this body of like atheist thought with the God delusion, this kind of stuff, which was really popular. And it had this sort of quite strident, you know, debate me bro kind of attitude.

52:55And I was really swept up by that. I thought that was really exciting and cool. And I was beginning to sort of shake that off and grow up a bit essentially. And then running the podcast, what I've realized is that this is far more interesting and intricate. And I would say plausible than I'd given it credit for before. So, you know, I'm still not a Christian. Some people say to me like, you know. It's a funny word though, that anyway. Yeah.

53:20Bear Grylls:Like I'm less and less certain about the word. Yeah. You know what somebody said the other day? You're like this. The period of greatest growth ever in the history of the church was from 33 AD to 350. And during this time, there was no church buildings, no sermons, no singing and no Bible. And we get very tied up in all of those things and the labels and even the phrase Christian. It's like, it's a hard, it's like, I'm not sure where, for me, it feels quite like man-made, these sort of words. Yeah. And that is where I can definitely agree with, especially a Christian of your kind, which is to say someone who will say that and recognize that because some people place a lot of stock particularly catholics and they place a lot of stock in church tradition and the traditions that developed after nicaea and i look at that with a similar kind of man-made skepticism and i think to myself yeah like it also gives me license to when i look at the new testament and i think you know some scholars think that paul maybe didn't write that letter and that's a big problem but for someone like me it's like who cares if i think if I decide that Paul didn't write 1 Timothy, then I'll just look at the rest of it and I'll try to work out what came between the lines.

54:38A good friend of mine said to me once, when there's all this discussion about whether we have the real words of Jesus and whether the gospels are accurate and whether it's all apocryphal stories, he said that because these were written from early church traditions, Jesus was a real man who was doing real things. We can still know a lot about the character of Jesus. He said, imagine if, for example, have you heard of the Churchillian drift where like quotes get attributed to Churchill, even though he never said them. Same thing happens with C.S. Lewis. And he said, imagine if the only information you had historically about Churchill was a book of apocryphal quotes that he never actually said, but that people believed he said.

55:14You'd still get a pretty good picture of the kind of person Winston Churchill was. That's worst case scenario. You still get a pretty good act. You're still getting an image. And so I'm really interested in the scholarly stuff and like, you know, well, did Jesus really say that? was this an interpolation blah blah blah is this a translation thing but the thing that's most fascinating to me below all of that is like who was who was this guy and what was he doing to cause all of this even if it's a bunch of uh confusion and confused timelines and even if some stories got in there that shouldn't have got in there the fact that this scrambled to ride all this down and yeah and turn it into even with the drift exactly it's still it's still extremely interesting you if we could time travel yeah you would be one of the rough gang so would i

56:02Bear Grylls:yeah i don't think you'd be i mean even though you kind of like the headlines of you is like you know professor sort of oxford well are you a professor not a professor you're very clever do you know i mean that could that could potentially i put you into the pharisee type thing but you are the opposite you are you are what you would have been running wild with Jesus, I think. Yeah, I like that too. And also, I sort of always got the feel with Jesus. He loved the challenge. He loved the riposte. He loved the mental, verbal, like theological challenges. A lot of jousting, yeah. A lot of bait. A lot of jousting and brilliant sort of responses that have never been better.

56:42You know, whether it's saying like, should we pay our taxes to Caesar or not? You know, the Pharisees are trying to trip him up. and yeah sort of that response of just like well whose head is on the coin you know paid him and paid paid a god what is god it's sort of brilliant yeah yeah there's a i would think that i see a great i see a beautiful alignment actually i think if we would go back in time travel you would be you'd be running wild with him well if the science ever gets there and we and we managed to go back in time i bought it when people say you know where would you go yeah where would you go come what would you do of course you'd go to meet jesus what point where would you go Would you go after the resurrection or would you want to be there at the beginning?

57:22What about in the 17 years? That's interesting. You know, I think that the moment that you'd want to witness if you could only have five minutes would be the moment of the crucifixion. And the reason is that you would see that this was a man, the crucifixion happened. You would see whether the curtain tore, whether the sky opened, all that kind of stuff. And it would give you all of that. I mean, I'm - But they keep finding evidence for like the,

57:44Bear Grylls:I think in this sort of, you know, the star stuff and they said there was a side... Oh, yeah, yeah, like the solar eclipse. The solar eclipse that I've actually done is the exact kind of like... That's really interesting, isn't it? It's really interesting. And also that moment is kind of... Also to see the first ever Roman Christian. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. The centurion going, truly son of God. This man is the son of God. That's interesting you go to that moment. That's kind of cool. But part of me would say... Although, yeah, you want to see the resurrection. Part of me wants to say I would just like to meet him walking along during his ministry and just say, listen, man, I've got five minutes.

58:19Yes. Who are you? Are you the real deal? Messiah, are you God? Are you claiming to be God? That's what I'd want to do. I'd want to ask that question. And I mean, where would you go in Jesus' life? You have five minutes. It's so interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I think... Vacation rental hosts can make or break a vacation. Luckily, Vrbo makes it easy to find the ones who make it stress-free. Vrbo's Premier Hosts badge highlights vacation rental hosts with top-tier listings. The ones with excellent guest experience reviews, zero cancellations, and strong ratings across the board.

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59:38So, I mean, if you think of the biblical, so there are a lot of people that did get that chance and did it come exactly for that purpose, you know, say, I mean, one bit you might not have noticed that I really like is John the Baptist's relationship with Jesus.

59:54Bear Grylls:We kind of touched on it, but there's a really nice moment where if you think if anyone in the Jesus orbit is going to believe in him is John the Baptist. Known him from birth, kicking inside my mother's stomach whenever Jesus walked in the room. Like, I know this guy is a real deal. I'm baptizing the River Jordan saying, the one is coming after me is like, you know, I know. And yet when he was in Herod's prison and he gets a chance to get a message to his disciples, the one thing he says is go back to Yeshua. and just ask him, you really are who you say you are. Is it you? And I love that because like, if even John the Baptist had doubts because of he's like being tortured and in a brutal prison and like we're human, you know, then I can have doubts.

1:00:44Bear Grylls:And it's like, he's been a real hero of mine actually, John the Baptist. I think he's my favorite person. Well, it's interesting you say that. I'd be interested in what you, what I like about him is that everyone always, Jesus says there's no one being greater. He is the number one in the prophets. And I always think like, we think to be number one in life, you've got to be like a leader. You've got to be like, I would think Moses or one of these people, like on top of the mountain, the big beard, the loud voice, the authority. It's how we're brought up to think these are our people in our lives who are the leaders.

1:01:19Bear Grylls:And yet it was the rough one who lived off the land and was wild. and just loved this Yeshua character. And he said, no one better. Why do you like him? I think he's fascinating because he seems to be this sort of precursor to Jesus in a weird way. He's the introduction to Jesus. There's a bit of mystery as to who he was and why he was baptizing and why he found his way into the wilderness and what it means to preach a baptism for the repentance of sins and why Jesus would need to undergo that. All of these questions are so, so interesting. There are also communities of people who particularly revere John the Baptist.

1:02:00There's a group called the Mandaeans, who are like this Gnostic sect, who think that John the Baptist is the most important prophet. Now, they see Jesus as a false prophet, actually. There's this whole historical fascination with John the Baptist. Yeah, interesting. I didn't know that. And it's also the insistence early on that he is not the Messiah. Yeah, you keep saying I'm not the guy. Which implies to me that at the time, there were lots of people who thought he was the Messiah. because that's what happens people want to think somebody's great and then the power goes to your head you know when Herod Antipas first hears about Jesus he goes this guy is John the Baptist reborn in the Gospels and so what was John the Baptist doing if when he hears this Jesus guy it reminds me of John so it seems like John the Baptist had this incredible ministry and he must have been doing all kinds of interesting things and there were all kinds of people who thought he was the Messiah and so and we only get clues to that in the Gospels and so I'd be fascinated do you know what maybe I'd go to the baptism so I'd love to meet the Baptist with the sky open yeah that would be pretty cool to see too because that if you see that then you know because you can't

1:03:01Bear Grylls:fake that so in a way that's as convincing as the resurrection because if you're there and you literally see the sky open the voice of God going this is my son and the dove you kind of get a proof of the Trinity well it's like you get to meet John then you get to see Jesus it's all there but you know what they all saw all these things and yet still the next day they would go well not so sure the clouds could have and what's the voice was it thunder that sounded and that dove, you know, there had been a few doves around that day. Never enough. What I do know though, is that I speak to a lot of interesting people.

1:03:32I speak to some scientists. If I ever meet one who tells me that they're onto something with time travel, I'll know who to call to go back and meet John the Baptist.

1:03:39Bear Grylls:I love it. Bear Grylls. Thank you for your time. Well, you know what? You are such a great guy. And really, I really mean it. You're doing such a beautiful job. Keep seeking like all of us. And we're told when we seek, we find. we'll see how it goes thanks again you're great man $47 ,000 that's what the average engine customer saves on business travel every year that's a 26 % savings all with no booking fees up to 70 % off hotels zero booking fees free to start total control find a hotel that meets your team's complex needs did we say no fees? we did that's engine teams travel spend managed Get started at engine.com slash savings.

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