The Business of YouTube: Scaling & Strategy with Theo Baker & Ollie 'REEV' Fletcher | S3EP.05

12:56Ollie Fletcher:lectures and stuff like i've never worked that hard in my life i think that's the the bit right if we zoom out from the actual like the the example we're using of like youtube it you can hear the same themes it's like 10 000 hours it's like the land gratification nine months of not earning a penny the grind five days a week six days a week work until 2 a.m going back home to get to uni etc these these these uh characteristics of the people that i speak to that have kind of quote-unquote made it um they're all the same like it's that same mentality to try and well i

13:26Theo Baker:remember as well about six so before i went to uni i remember i was doing i helped joe out with a video and he was like um it was like a he was dressed as ronaldo i was dressed as malfoy and we were like fighting each other and he was like because this is me and you i'll pay you 50 percent of whatever this video earns. And I'm at McDonald's at the time and like a week after the video goes live, he sent me 600 pounds. And that was more than I'd earned at McDonald's in like three months or like two months. I was like, okay, well, I didn't know that this was possible. So that was a big realization that actually this could be a potential career as well.

14:02Theo Baker:What about you, mate? Well, to break the fourth wall a bit, we've had this conversation before, haven't we? But mine was a very similar story to Theo in terms of I was at university at the time that I decided to commit to YouTube full-time. I was at Loughborough doing sports science. I took that opportunity because I originally wanted to study medicine, which I imagine you might be quite familiar with that sort of path. Didn't get the grades that I needed to in order to become a medical student. and rather than committing to retaking my A-levels, I jumped straight into Loughborough University because it was local and I also enjoyed sport.

14:44Theo Baker:I'm a guy from Leicester, it's not too distant. Realised it wasn't the course for me and the people that I surrounded myself with weren't particularly my type of person, especially that part of my life, it was quite a formative period. watched other people playing fifa online streaming and thought i could do this i enjoyed playing the game i'm i feel like i'm fairly charismatic i reckon i could take this online and do this as a career um so i just i i committed to making videos about fifa and then there was kind of like a sliding doors moment where i was like do i do i drop out of uni and then commit to going back to the medicine fork in the path or commit to being a YouTuber and commit to being a YouTuber and the rest is history at that point really.

15:36Ollie Fletcher:I mean both of you such powerful stories with it and it begs the question for me who you know we talked about what does it look like in the modern day for me. I can't compete with four uploads a week or whatever it may be. I can't compete with the passion for watching streamers. I know your channels have taken different permutations since then yeah my um effort towards youtube is a fairly informal one low friction post a vlog sometimes you do some brand stuff the question is kind of like what was youtube like back then but more how does someone win in this day and age then if it's changed from what it was back then to right now and if i'm not necessarily competing against people like you but i obviously want more subscribers i see my subscriber count go up quite slowly i'm only you know if i if i'm lucky i'll upload once a week and it's very much a 10 minute to 20 minute 30 minute vlog depending on how deliberate I am with my camera.

16:20Ollie Fletcher:So I suppose like there's a few questions in here.

16:23Theo Baker:Are you asking for advice? Yeah. I don't think you should look at subscriber count really. I think you should look at how many people are watching your videos and how engaged they're in your videos. So you could have, you could have a million subscribers, but your video only gets like 10 ,000 views or you can have 10 ,000 subscribers. But if your video gets 5 ,000 views, that's 50 % of your subscribers who are watching your videos.

16:46Ollie Fletcher:so if there's a disparity because sometimes I'll see like 20 ,000 views but I have 10 ,000 subscribers that's exactly what you want

16:52Theo Baker:that's incredible yeah because I'm like in relative terms

16:55Ollie Fletcher:20 ,000 people why don't the other 10 ,000 subscribe honestly

16:58Theo Baker:the subscriber button right now is almost irrelevant on YouTube really everything's homepage everything's algorithms now like you want if you have an engaged audience who are gonna buy your products you're gonna sign up to your gym programs that's what you want you should yes building following and what not is important and brands and stuff, but in terms of actually getting these like customers, that's irrelevant. Can I ask a question? No, it's my podcast. All right, fair enough. I'll leave it. What do you want from your YouTube channel? What's the aim? What's the end goal?

17:33Ollie Fletcher:This is a very, in my reductionist kind of articulation of this is, if I can produce long form content where people are sat down for five, 10, 15 minutes to absorb content around March 1, and typically the stuff that I like to post, I say is low friction so it's like there might be some workout stuff there may be some family interaction stuff there's some stuff around the business like obviously I'm a a spokesperson and a window into the business I think it's about but I'm also a spokesperson for my life and if my stuff resonates with people so in order for it to be low friction not feel like a job to me I just post the stuff that I'm kind of doing what do I want from it is if to your point if people can sit down and absorb that they're more likely to trust no one like me and then potentially buy the stuff that we, you know, the products and services.

18:18Ollie Fletcher:But it's not like a, it's the same with this podcast. I don't have any, we don't do any ads, we don't do anything like that. There's no, we don't make any money directly attributed to this or the YouTube because it's more about documenting and showing and hoping that it resonates with a view that later down the line, the stuff that we've built, whether it's the app, the supplements, et cetera, that we truly believe in, it can be beneficial to someone later. Yeah.

18:39Theo Baker:I think events are so huge for that as well. You know how you did your Race to the Stones and that got a lot of traction on that video and it probably would have got a lot of customers into the March On program and whatnot. I think having stuff to work towards is almost vital for an audience to be engaged in it. They want to follow a journey, right? Every time I do a video, whether it's a marathon or even actually a 5K is probably one of my most engaged videos of recent times because it's so relatable. You can relate to that 5K journey. I remember watching it. Did you? So it's like people know how to run a 5K, whereas something like an Ironman is a little bit less relatable.

19:15But I think probably a competitor of yours in America,

19:21Theo Baker:Nick Bear, is very good at that. He's very good at creating series which are an event, build up, build up, build up, content, content, content. And within obviously the content you're showcasing your March on supplements and he does his supplements as well. But having a series that leads up documenting your training on everything I think is really good.

19:41Ollie Fletcher:I think that's where I'm probably, where I fall short is that because I'm, and maybe I am, but I also, I don't recognize, I'm not a creator. I'm not a YouTuber.

19:52Theo Baker:Yeah, but I think that's, I think that's actually endearing for people to watch as well. I think certainly in the fitness industry now, when it comes to content creation, there's like, it's the age of authenticity. You've seen it with like the Sam Sulek come up, Nick Bear, yourself, for example. people want to watch real videos whereas they're like it previously it was the mr mr beastification of like oh my gosh you know everything's popping up got so many things in one video people will sit down for a 30 minute video of you doing everything that you do in your life because of

20:24Ollie Fletcher:who you are i hear you i think where i need to so for example use the nick bear thing i mean again the utmost respect for him he would refer to himself i mean yes he's the founder and ceo of bbm but he is a youtuber yes and he is a podcaster yeah like i'm maybe it's limiting beliefs right and maybe it's just like almost like a safety mechanism for me. If I don't identify as a podcaster and a YouTuber, it means that it can stay a bit more informal and it can just be an outlet and hobby for me to have these cool conversations. As soon as I formalise a little bit more, which is the pressure from some of the people around me that really see the opportunity here, then there's like a level of accountability that you need to try and go to.

20:59Theo Baker:Do you know what I'd do? If I were in your position, I would... You know how you're vlogging with a little camera like that? Yeah. Which is great. I do that all the time as well. I would actually get rid of that. And I would just say, say Sam, for example, every day you come in, you're just waiting with an actual camera. So rather than feel like you're vlogging and you're like, I feel like when you're vlogging, it feels like you're working, right? You feel like I must create content. Whereas if someone's filming you, it's actually a different, you get a way different vibe. And it's almost like you don't notice it.

21:32Theo Baker:Well, that's how we started. It's like reality TV.

21:34Ollie Fletcher:Yeah. Sam, Sam would literally follow me around the camera everywhere we went. and we'd go, you know, I was doing some brand deals at the time, like we'd fucking fly to LA, we'd be in Miami, we'd be, and it was cool, it was easy for me, because he'd just get a camera out, and we'd just get going with it, it's more like, Sam's had to be moved to, the resource of Sam had to be moved somewhere else, and then me finding someone that I'm truly happy, travelling with, and spending all that time with. You'd be comfortable around as well. Yeah, you've got to be really comfortable around them.

21:58Theo Baker:That's what's so important about hiring, isn't it, right, you need to find, it's not just, are they good at the job, it's like, are they the right person, do they fit this role, can I get on with them? But showcasing your training every day as well I think is crucial as well like train like a savage.

22:13Ollie Fletcher:Steve Cook said the same thing I had him on the podcast in season one or two I can't remember but we went for for lunch afterwards and he was like obviously when he was bodybuilding when he was competing it was really easy for him to be a YouTuber he's like now that's not his identity anymore and he's like yeah I might run a marathon or like he's seeing all the trends that all us guys are getting into when we're a little bit older and he's like I've got to do this thing because he's like if I don't have a story to tell I can't bring people along on that journey and you you're right I recognize it whenever we've had like the sub the marathon one or the or the ultra marathon etc like there's a story and there's a theme and people can kind of they can pick up where they left off the last time and it's a succinct um narrative that you're building with them it's also very easy to fall

22:54Theo Baker:into the trap though of event event event event throughout the year which I don't think is healthy because you need time to recover between events so I think like one or two events a year which you can build towards content is great. And I don't know if you guys agree with this as well. I feel like, especially on social media recently, like marathons or anything like this, it just seems like the norm. And like, they've become so normal that people are always running a marathon. People have become desensitised to really amazing fitness feats. It's become normal, which is crazy.

23:27Ollie Fletcher:I was going to say like, I mean, we're kind of in the same, we're all in the same boat, right? Because we're thinking of things that are uncomfortable and challenges and to build the story. So I'm talking to myself at the same time as asking you, but what's your thoughts on it? Because, you know, the thing you said about 5K being relatable, you were trying to run the sub 20 minutes, whatever it may be. You're trying to run the marathon now. Like what you're doing fundamentally isn't that impressive. Like me running a sub three hour marathon, it fucking isn't impressive. But it is. But it maybe is to some people.

23:53Ollie Fletcher:To a demographic, yeah. So like, what do you think you running a sub 20 minute 5K is so encapsulating that I actually want to watch it

24:02Theo Baker:or anyone wants to watch it? It's not, it's the person they're invested in that makes the difference. I'm trying to run a sub-330 and I can't even process running a sub-3. But hopefully people will still be invested in my video and my journey, even though I'm running so much slower than you are because they want to see how I compete with it or how I deal with the challenges along the way. I think documenting the process is so important for that as well because people see you or I or you starting from this place, getting better, getting better, had some struggles maybe along the way and and that's just like it's everyone's struggle everyone goes through that struggle everyone goes through that training process so it's very relatable whereas i think a lot of people online don't necessarily show the struggles don't necessarily show the training process they only show the the glory and the end result so by seeing what someone's gone through to then get the glory people can really heavily resonate with that and that's oh sorry yeah that's always the difference between long form and short form i feel and we've been in the long form industry for quite some time to know the difference like a lot of the the way that um achievements are put forward now is over a 60 second clip whereas we put a 30 minute mini documentary out of this is when we felt great about what we were doing this is the ultimate low of where we got to and then we got to the final achievement and you know people can follow the actual journey rather than being you know but it's harder to do that yeah of Of course it is.

25:31Theo Baker:It's way harder to get someone to watch a 30-minute video than a 60-second video.

25:34Ollie Fletcher:Again, if you're not relatable or someone can't stand someone for 30 minutes. I actually recorded the podcast earlier this morning and we went for lunch afterwards. And the guy is like a top professional. He's also a fucking legend behind closed doors, but he doesn't have that public persona because he works with a certain calibre of people, whether it's athletes, CEOs, et cetera. And we were talking about just like this relatability behind closed doors. Do you think the hallmark of a great creator then? And this maybe speaks to the fact that you start with pitch side and then you had backside.

26:02Ollie Fletcher:Because backside had so much traction because you were just authentically you rather than talking about football. Do you think the hallmark of a good creator is someone that can show a diverse personality or their different traits? And at what stage does it become, are you sharing too much? Because I don't, again, people would look at me at maybe an influencer or a creator because I do create content and I put my life on social media. But for me, it was just about low friction. And my principle of what am I sharing is what am I proud of that day? Whether it's my training session, which is just like proof of work, whether it's the people that I communicate with in the workplace, like my team, I'm very proud to be a part of that.

26:39Ollie Fletcher:My wife, my kids, obviously very proud to be a part of that. And so there's no rhyme or reason. I'm also very proud of, this is what I eat every day. It shows the discipline. And again, if people can take stuff from that, it's not that I ate the eggs and salmon. It's what was the principle behind eating the same thing, et cetera. So that's my sort of, those are my tactics. And again, I suppose we're giving away here now, tactics for other people but for you do you think the reason a great creator is a great creator is because they maybe have subject matter expertise football whatever it may be but they also are leaning into the things that make them authentic themselves the Malfoy whatever the other bits and

27:12Theo Baker:pieces I think that's absolutely vital I think what you see with say like the Mr Beast of this world and creators who are trying to emulate what he's doing out there they have much less of a maybe Mr Beast an outline but people who are trying to emulate him they have much less personality within the video but even i i agree it's almost like a robot yeah he is because yeah because if you have too much personality you don't appeal to 200 million people at times are way smaller because people aren't wanting to connect with them yeah on more of a personal level they just watch the video for like the dopamine i'm like oh my god what is going on here where i feel like what a lot of uk creators are really good at it's just getting across who they are as a person and that's why a lot of them are so relatable like i take joe as an example he is so authentic and sometimes too open and too real i would say so and he would he would agree as well i think we've both learned over the last few years the point at which we probably shouldn't share there's certain things we shouldn't have shared and we have shared and now i for me personally i know what i'm comfortable sharing now like you all you gotta do is go back four years on waffling and there's too much there's too much information out there but i think in the uk UK like oh big time yeah I've been told a lot and um well the whole process is trial and error isn't it even if that yeah even if that um means how much you share or how much you don't it's I'm comfortable now with what I'm okay to share and I feel like I've learned my lesson a lot and the UK creators are just very good at showcasing their personality and just being authentic being themselves like I wouldn't say we know anyone who's different on camera than they are off camera and maybe an extension of themselves.

28:49Theo Baker:Yeah, a slight caricature, but they're all the same person, right? Yeah, I agree.

28:52Ollie Fletcher:I know your content's changed, right? The actual subjects of the content, but is the game change a little bit? Do you guys, because you're now consummate professionals of it, understand how to play the game, amount of uploads, what to post, when to post, et cetera? Can you be a little bit more, are you like the experienced footballer that doesn't need to run as much because they just know where people are and they've got the touch, et cetera? Or do you feel as though you've constantly got to, in this ever-changing, developing landscape with new crates coming in have you got to be on your no we still feel pressure we had this

29:20Theo Baker:conversation on the train earlier about how difficult it is to like ideate good ideas at the moment even to a degree of hiring new people for just ideation so there's definitely you know we're under the cosh a little bit yeah i agree but i also think though now if you i've gone through burnout and i've i i there's things i don't like doing now and i think the most important thing you can do as a creator is hire someone to take that burden away from you yeah I think what that person can offer you is just a more time to do the things you actually enjoy which for me is being on camera rather than behind the camera editing so I think if any creator is out there it's easier to than done what you need to have the finances to be able to do it but it's worth taking a risk on someone whether it be a three month or six month period and just seeing if it pays off you you know full well it's just about delegating to people who you think are as good or if not better than you are at that particular you know facet in the job really isn't

30:20Ollie Fletcher:it completely it will talk I like that you picked up there on the burnout we're going to talk a little bit more on that but do you um do you like with me people like me coming onto the channel right and everyone now adopting YouTube are you like I know you spoke about the sort of collaboration of like old school YouTube back then coming up to you in your career and obviously you've been very open with me and you know telling me to throw my cameras in the bin um do you see uh people coming into the space now and just jump on the platform, is it positive, is it negative? Do you have any feelings towards it?

30:48Theo Baker:It's complete positive. Always. I don't see any... There's no competition. Yes, there is competition, technically, but for me personally, there's no competition. It goes back to the point of the start. Everyone's going to watch everything, right? And you're trying to be better than what you were. That's why everyone appears in everyone's videos. Everyone wants to help everyone. If one person is winning, it means someone else is winning. You want everyone to win rather than oh this person's doing similar content to me okay yeah well like everyone does similar content to everyone everyone's on the same video ideas you just gotta keep working on you keep uploading and don't look at other people I'd say how does it feel to be like part of that I mean to the point

31:29Ollie Fletcher:like it was like when we're walking to Stratford that day and Sam's like mate mate like how's it feel to be part of that like pioneering crew and like to have a whole generation of kids I don't view it like that no I just enjoy the process and I enjoy my job I don't think it's necessarily

31:46Theo Baker:we spoke about having a duty of care for people that watch you and you know you have grown up with your career or my career and how you form those people that view you but I don't think necessarily I have an ego to to know that I'm the guy for that particular do you know I mean do you see what I'm trying to say yeah I see what you're saying I definitely have a responsibility though to be like a like when you meet people on the street saying um you've inspired me to do this I definitely feel a responsibility to be a good person online yeah and don't go everyone has their flaws every now and again or just reflect the person you are in the content as well yeah and vice versa the person you are in real life is reflected in what you put out as content it's funny because i also see myself as such a tiny fish in the qc at the moment so you look like sort of like ksi for example he he if you ask a question to him i would answer it on his behalf of saying yeah he is he's influenced every yeah he is the pioneer like i think 90 percent of especially us and uk youtubers probably owe him some form of gratitude to their career yeah He's touched everyone's career.

33:01Theo Baker:In what sense? Just being the original inspiration behind UK YouTube. He helped Joe grow. In turn, Joe helped me grow. And now we're friends with JJ. He's in our videos and vice versa. So he's touched almost everyone. And I'm almost certain that the people that I started watching to try and emulate when I began my career, began their career because of KSI. I think he's just like that. He is the face of UK YouTube, isn't he? I would say so. the goat yeah it is that's a nice way to talk about someone

33:34Ollie Fletcher:I don't know how much you want to share on this kind of stuff but you mentioned the first paycheck September thousand pounds like what kind of money I'm not saying how much do you boys earn but what kind of money were YouTubers earning back then because you see the Logan Pauls the Jake Pauls the Care Size the Mr. Beast we're talking

33:50Theo Baker:the coin sponsor era as well which is like that was FIFA coin sponsor right like the Logan Paul for example I know he's talked about this openly yeah This is 2016, 17. I feel like America, for context, America is so far ahead of us. 10X, 20X? I don't know, like fucking loads. They're like, I think 10X. I remember I was in an email chain by accident. I don't know why I was in this email chain. I don't know, someone at some agency had put me in this email chain. You come up as the first person when they type TH. It was like this creator who had considerably less followers than I, but they were from America.

34:28Theo Baker:And they were charging like 100 grand for like a YouTube video. Yeah. $100 ,000. And I was like, well, I was like... I'm pretty close to that, really, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, what the hell? This is like six, seven years ago. How are they this far ahead? But Logan, like when they were popping their daily vlog, six, seven million views a day, that's like... What would you reckon? 50 grand a day? Yeah. What do you reckon the CPM on one of those videos? They're loads. 50 grand a day and then his merch was doing like a million dollars on black friday a day yeah it's just it's just ridiculous but like it's definitely grown since i've started that i don't know whether that's because i've got more strings to my bow i learned that saying the other day you got more revenue streams more revenue streams yeah and also i'm just older like i know what i'm doing more i may come across as a bit of a yeah how old are you boys 29 31 he's old he's old i'm young am I

35:26Ollie Fletcher:I'm very old those opportunities maybe not the Logan Paul type cash but are those opportunities still around for people

35:32Theo Baker:yes 100 % they are and especially if you have like a a niche following or unique following like if you there's YouTubers out there such random niche followings that you could be something I don't know what an example yeah you'd like you could be a fridge magnet YouTuber okay and seriously and you could have like 10 ,000 followers but you have 10 ,000 followers who love Fridge Magnet. Yeah, and then you get sponsored from Bosch. Yeah. And it's seriously like, and especially in makeup, makeup's a great example. Like female creators in makeup earn so much money.

36:11Ollie Fletcher:In the male side, what's the one to be in? Cars? Watchers? Finance. Finance. Finance, yeah.

36:19Theo Baker:Yeah. Because, and actually golf. Golf as well. Golf is incredible because the clientele's... As soon as you pivot to running and cycling,

36:26Ollie Fletcher:why don't you go to golf?

36:27Theo Baker:I tried. Could have done. Yeah, that is true for you, actually. You start a golf channel and then no longer play. A golf channel has the highest average views on any golf YouTube in the world. It's true. I've done five videos and stopped. Well, because you couldn't play any more hip? No, because Harry launched another golf channel. Yeah, I think a lot of the main forms of content, i.e. TV and stuff, the viewership and the eyeballs are now converting to YouTube. which means that the industry is even more affluent. There's more money in it.

36:59Ollie Fletcher:I watch YouTube exclusively now. That's a good point, yeah.

37:04Theo Baker:Gym's good. Gym's good money. Gym content.

37:08Ollie Fletcher:Fitness content. Fitness content. We need to start ideating more, Sammy. Yeah. Ideating. We do. Oh, yes. I need to throw one on the camera. I need to stand there waiting for me at 7am when I get in the office.

37:20Theo Baker:Yeah, seriously, 7am. Yeah, point in the shoot. when you walk out of the house, dark, cold outside.

37:26Ollie Fletcher:You guys have got a sick chemistry. What's it like being a business guy?

37:32Theo Baker:He's like my brother. It's not even like... Don't be soppy, man. He's the best man at my wedding for a reason. It's not like... I'm sure you can emulate with Charlie. It's not like being in business with him. We just get to do cool stuff around the world and get paid for it alongside your best mate. I kind of help you and you help me along there. Yeah, of course. Yeah, financially, emotionally, everything. We share an office together, so that's pretty good. You always send some soppy messages to me, though. They need to chill out. I'm an emotional guy.

38:04Ollie Fletcher:Do you agree on most things when it comes to ideation and things?

38:09Theo Baker:In terms of pitch side, I would say so. Would you say so or not? Yeah. You're way more philosophical than me. Yeah. I would say I'm probably... It'll come with age. You're still young. It'll come with age. Yeah, I'm very young, actually. Too young. I would say if we had, like, I would be the bad cop, you'd be the good cop. That's 100 % our relationship in pretty much everything we do. Yeah. I think I'm the empathetic person in, like, a conversation that revolves around business, but he's, like, the cut to the point, no bullshit kind of. I think sometimes you just have to have that. Not in a rude way, but maybe in a rude way sometimes.

38:46Theo Baker:No, it's business. Okay. I think you have to, like... I wish I was more like that, But I don't have that gene in me, I don't think, if that makes sense.

38:53Ollie Fletcher:Yeah, I mean, that is, again, that's why I think business relationships and partnerships are so powerful. Have you ever disagreed on anything like fundamentally? No, this is what I think is what...

39:03Theo Baker:When's the last time we had a proper argument about... I don't think I've ever argued with you. Too much of a pressure. I also don't have much of my memory, so it's like... I don't think in terms of, like, any business decision we've ever made, there's been two... When was the last one that pissed you off? Have I ever pissed you off? oh you did some rogue stuff in tomorrowland but we won't talk about that um were you there yeah yeah yeah uh but recently yeah it was like last weekend

39:36Theo Baker:the final send-off before your iron man that's pretty much um no i died tomorrowland two weeks

39:44Ollie Fletcher:before an iron man that's pretty brave i only drank two out of three days three three weeks

39:48Theo Baker:before four weeks before no it's two weeks no three no what's two weeks it's a week of the deload yeah well yeah yeah um no i don't think we've ever properly argued in terms of like what we agree or disagree on in in business sense i come to you when it's like um say it's like a pitch side issue whatever yeah and i'm just like fuck this this is bullshit blah blah blah you're definitely much more of like the calmer sense and like talk it through ration yeah yeah logical

40:13Ollie Fletcher:approach just like this is just bollocks like why you're acting like this yeah i like it you've uh you referenced the burnout stuff and it's clear obviously irrespective of what you're trying to do whether it's uploading four videos a week etc like in any environment you find yourself in where you're trying to be the best at what you do sharp and be your best self etc as we said at the top um you toe the line because you're competitive with yourself and sometimes you go the wrong side that line and burnout does it does occur uh you said 2019 what what how did that manifest what

40:43Theo Baker:happened i think i just was doing everything myself uploading pretty much daily gaming stuff as well so when i moved to london and then i was like it's just too much i need to stop and i did pretty much stop for like a year i reckon and it was very very i was very close to like not going broke, but like it was definitely, it wasn't looking healthy in there. And I don't know, so I just switched and I was like, let's go again. I think that, I think that time off sort of helped, sort of brought the spark back a little bit. The flame definitely went out. What did you do for the year? If you weren't obviously doing YouTube, how do you feel?

41:23Theo Baker:I was still doing YouTube, but I was doing like almost the bare minimum. Like my main channel was basically irrelevant. It was gone. And I was just doing a bit of like thief on the gaming channel, a bit of extra stuff. So I was still doing stuff, but it was like I did a bit of streaming and I sort of convinced myself that this was work and it was doing well and it really wasn't doing well at all and I wasn't earning much money at all. I was like completely wasting my time. But this was the first year I moved to London, so I think maybe that was a big influence, going out drinking a lot as well.

41:56Theo Baker:And then just, I say, just before COVID hit is when I started taking it more seriously and the spark ignited again.

42:02Ollie Fletcher:did that year of like i guess taking your foot off the gas a little bit did it impact the channel

42:08Theo Baker:much yeah massively massively impacted it massively views were down everything was down um that's where i sort of gave that channel a rest and worked on another channel and during i think covid helped massively i built my gaming channel up and that did exceptionally well and then I basically I got to a million subs in 2020 2021 perhaps all on my own no editors and that's when I got a million subs I was like okay I'm ready to turn this hobby I guess hobby that paid well into a job and do this properly and that's when I started hiring and then when I started hiring started making better quality videos and got the momentum back up and that's That's how you redo it.

42:53Ollie Fletcher:Was there anyone like Joe you referenced back in the day that sort of got you into it that was giving you a bit of mentorship and guidance on, you know, it's probably time to hire someone? Or you were ignoring it, or do you think you knew it?

43:05Theo Baker:I'd say maybe Chip and Cal. Cal was pretty... So Cal Freezy, who we do the studio with, he was definitely one of the first to hire someone in terms of editors. So I think I saw this success that he had. And I think I've also just got to an age where I was just ready to like financially I was ready, like mentally I was ready to hire someone. And actually I would say Jodie, my missus, was a big sort of confidant. Is that a word? Big pusher of success. She definitely gave me the confidence to do it as well.

43:41Ollie Fletcher:All of you have kind of like, you've kind of got an entrepreneurial spirit, right? It's quite similar, again, to people in many different arenas. And you're making investments in things. and obviously KSI has gone on to do X, Y, and Z. Do you reckon the money came first? You're like, I've got surplus funds, I'm going to invest. Or do you think, were you quite entrepreneurial? And this question to both of you about building a business. Okay, I've built a business. I've got product market fit. I've got listeners, people who wanted to do it. Okay, now I'm going to think about how do I build foundations around this stuff?

44:10Ollie Fletcher:How do I improve distribution?

44:13Theo Baker:I think it's almost sometimes a process of diffusion. Like you see people around you, especially if you've got quite a tight-knit circle of people that are also successful. doing things and making their process easier you just kind of just copy it and follow suit a little i remember it was working for me and i was telling you to just do it yeah yeah he was putting off for fucking ages like why aren't you doing this yeah and i don't know why you weren't doing this but you eventually took the leap and it took a while to like switch your channel over but now you're smashing yeah i actually think probably a lot of the success of recent years for my content comes from people telling me to switch to a format of video that I was like passionate about.

44:56Theo Baker:As in changing to fitness, yeah, becoming a fitness content creator.

45:01Ollie Fletcher:How much does the podcast and the YouTube, do they complement each other? I think that's a pretty obvious question. Not for me. Fine.

45:09Theo Baker:Yeah, it's so interesting.

45:11Ollie Fletcher:Because you were YouTubers before you were podcasters. Yeah, for like eight years. Why did you do podcasts?

45:18Theo Baker:Do you want to do this? we have slightly different stories because we started Pitchside together but I was already technically a podcaster but I never called myself I was always a YouTuber I've never called myself a podcaster ever but that is probably my number one thing now with three podcasts which is kind of wild but when it comes to Pitchside we started it mainly as an FPL show it was originally proposed as a fantasy football show because we got into lockdown and it's pretty much football was the only thing people could enjoy as a sport like visually because there was no crowds right it's behind closed doors so we got highly addicted to FPL we thought right we enjoy this game so much we're really good friends should we show off the back of it quickly realised that there wasn't really that much of a market for that and then transitioned into football and realised we're not knowledgeable about football but it coincided with the fellas yeah getting their spotify deal and but what i mean by that is they got their spotify deal and launched their studios in which their business model was creating shows and they'd provide the production we'd have the show so we were the first show under the fellow studios yeah so we sort of believed in them and they believed in us and we built it together and now they've obviously got so countless amount of shows but we the pitch side has definitely gone through like peaks and troughs like the first year and a half we sort of i felt like we didn't really actually know what we were doing it was more like a normal podcast that sort of had a bit yeah it was it was it was a general podcast but we'd get people associated with football on the podcast yeah whereas now it's almost just a football show it doesn't really particularly matter who we get on as a guest but it's not a serious football show which is why i think it does well because that you have the space of it's the authenticity thing again the neverland Carragher, Sky Sports, if you want to watch real pundits, go watch that.

47:11Theo Baker:If you want to watch four twits being idiots, go watch our show. Who fully well know what they are as well, which I think is important. Which is why footballers watch our show because they don't want to watch themselves being critiqued. Yeah, we may do a bit of critiquing, but realistically, they don't give a shit about us what we say. We're there to banter each other, so people watch us because you're tuning in a laugh, not tuning in for serious debates. When we do our live streams on football matches, if you watch it we barely talk about the game. I reckon 90 % of the conversation is not football related.

47:48Theo Baker:Which is weird but do you think

47:51Ollie Fletcher:the success then and the success that you're continually having whether it's the early YouTube days or the multiple podcasts now is more to do with the love then for creating content on multiple different platforms in different formats rather than the actual, because the subjects are just like you're following your passions. Some of it There's obviously been things where you think, okay, this is really topical, it's culturally relevant, let's do something around it. But more often than not, what's culturally relevant, you kind of combine with just your own hobby.

48:16Theo Baker:Yeah, totally agree. I think it's really a nice thing for us is that when we do have a passion about something, you can turn that into a job. Yeah, you can monetise it. Like for me with fitness, I got injured, couldn't play football, so what would I like to do? I need to build strength because I'm getting injured. I need to protect myself. and if I'd never got injured I never would have got fitness deals wouldn't have got brand deals to do with fitness so you it sort of leans you into a different path um I think if you if you I think if you you're a youtuber who's self-sufficient for that long you understand like the process of evolution like you just you grow naturally with what you develop into if that

48:56Ollie Fletcher:makes sense yeah it makes perfect sense yeah I mean it's a nice sort of segue into this next sort of section the fitness piece because I can't remember where it came up in conversation in other words, me and Sam or me and someone, we were talking about a lot of either TV personalities or creators now coming into fitness, like me coming into YouTube, people coming across in this crossover into like the fitness scene. And they're asking my thoughts on it. And I think I might have said this to you last time we spoke. I think we did. When you see people come into a space and you can tell it's authentic, right?

49:27Ollie Fletcher:You with your injury, you just with a passion for it. And actually we go back to the DM that you sent me I think in 2018 right you can tell you can tell that um you've come into the space and you've applied the same goes back to your articulation of without limits you you showed up to be your best every time you applied the same effort and intensity to everything else you've done in your life you have every right to go and try the sub 20 minute 5k and it be and encapsulate an audience and to do the Ironman because it's authentic and there's a lesson there for people because you're applying yourself and you're doing the training and it's you know you're no different for someone that's maybe come into the space as a personal trainer or ex-professional athlete or whatever, someone might deem to have more credibility or right to be there.

50:07Theo Baker:I think it's important as well, like for me personally, I don't, when I post up my fitness stuff, I don't post stuff where I'm telling people, this is how you should do the deadlift. I don't know all that, I don't push that knowledge because I don't know that knowledge. I just push out me working hard and hopefully that inspires someone. like I'm not there to teach someone about as I said how to do certain techniques and whatnot the content is never like condescending you're never punching up or down you're just focused on yourself like you're not going oh I've just completed sub 25k therefore everyone else should be doing that it's yeah I'd say as well like before I got into the fitness thing I've always played football so I've always ran and whatnot and started cycling during lockdown like I think a lot of people but I wasn't until the gym opened by me your gym where I actually got into proper strength training so I think without March on Stratford I probably wouldn't be doing a lot of this now so a lot actually there's a soundbite get that clip um you also came down to March on HQ and we did uh

51:11Ollie Fletcher:yeah on the runner we did a oh that's when we can run at the pace of Kipchoge yes marathon yeah and I was like that's a fucking cool idea that was actually a cool piece of content again it goes back to this ideation thing are you coming up with obviously the strategies to come up with things that are topical and challenge based we've also talked about you just kind of like following your passion through it but are you sitting down and going okay this is my passion here's what the kind of the industry or other people or the community are kind of maybe looking and thinking about and then you're creating all these different series and then just reach out to someone and go, okay, he's my guy for, you know, the March on Crew, the people are going to go do this with.

51:53Theo Baker:I mean, I don't know what your process is, but for me, we sit and work out a lot of videos for our second channel, which is way more almost topical and food related. But for the main channel, it's weird. Like you can sit and think of all these ideas and yeah, we've got a list of ideas that we're slowly working through. But it's crazy. Like the ones that have done the best over the last few years have just been the ones that have just popped up like that, like last minute without any thought. and you just film it so quick and it just works out, which is weird. You can spend so much time planning a video and it'd do really poorly or you can just wing a video and it just does absolutely amazing.

52:32Theo Baker:So mine are very sporadic. I definitely feel like I'm winging a lot, which is kind of weird to say. We actually said this on the train here. We were like, when he asks us a question, what do we say? We've winged this entire process to get here.

52:44Ollie Fletcher:but I have many it's good though because I think like instinct is like the element of fun like stuff that you're interested in the ability like and maybe use the example of you coming down to us it's like cool you came to our gym there's an opportunity for like to it's like the podcast opportunity to get in front of each other and just like chat shit or get an opportunity to train together and create some content around it I think it's I think you know it's kind of winging it but the loose strategy is follow something I'm interested in and do it alongside other people and see if there's like that the osmosis of my community and their community can help them drive more views

53:13Theo Baker:and I think as well if I ever do have an idea of a video and I think it's a good one, I will write it down no matter what. Yeah. Because the worst thing you could do is just forget an idea and you know it's going to be a banger. And actually the majority of them come when I'm in the shower or sleeping. Yeah, clarity of thoughts. Yeah, I don't think much. When you're sleeping so you wake up and you're like, oh, I dreamt of that. Yeah, and I'll write it down. Really? Yeah. It's the only time my mind thinks when I'm asleep. My process is a little bit different in terms of I'll probably go through a lot more vetting than Theo will for his ideas.

53:47Theo Baker:Certainly because he has a second channel which gives him a little bit more freedom to be like, well, if that doesn't do well, I can just pivot to something else. Whereas your main channel...

53:56Ollie Fletcher:I don't use my TikTok at all when Sam just throws stuff up on it. Because he's like, it's fine. It doesn't really matter. It's not brand degrading. No one's going to see it. It's painful.

54:06Theo Baker:But certainly the way that we see our main channels, there's a threshold to what is considered good enough if that makes sense whereas second channel it's almost like we'll just throw stuff at a wall and if it sticks we'll make that into a series or we'll you know also I think I've been we've been doing this so long I can see a title from a main channel and I'll just know if it's going to do well or not you can just tell if it's going to do well or not but I wish I had like your set up at the gym like you talk about TikTok right you you have so much you can do on TikTok you could different lift challenges

54:43Ollie Fletcher:let me pay you

54:45Theo Baker:for some insight you could do so much, you have the best facility in the UK and you could do stuff every day even member challenges it's not even time taxing either you could get 15 bits of content filmed in 30 minutes and they all pop it depends what you want to do if you don't want to do it don't do it I don't want to do it

55:14Ollie Fletcher:but I know that there's people in the business that want to do it and people that could do it and have more they do it a better job than I would we spoke about the burnout piece we spoke about how diligent you guys are with it and we've also referenced the fact that a lot of the content you're making now is based around a hobby or a passion or something that's like you've been led through the injury or what have you that does it so let's say for example the football then the golf and the gym training, like these are all kind of outlets that are obviously going to help you mentally and physically.

55:43Ollie Fletcher:But you're also having to create content around them. How the fuck do you switch off from content creation if everything, if you're in a creative economy where everything has to be documented?

55:51Theo Baker:Well, I did exactly that. I pivoted into something else which I enjoyed a bit more because I was feeling those exact things you've just said whilst making FIFA. Like I couldn't bear the thought of getting up in the morning and playing the game without I know that I'd just been filming 12 hours before. it's so demoralizing and draining so for me i'm in the early stages of still enjoying the me finding my feet in the fitness industry as a fitness content creator so probably i'm not the best to ask but you've been doing what you've done for like 10 years

56:24Ollie Fletcher:which is on that do people follow you from fifa to they have trans some have transitioned across

56:30Theo Baker:with me yeah collateral damage of people that just of course yeah or they all they grow up and and they enjoyed me for the subject matter that was the game. Don't enjoy me enough to follow me enough to, in the lifestyle area of things. But no, it's been a great transition. I'm on this podcast.

56:46Ollie Fletcher:In order to be successful, you've almost got to, obviously there's a minimum effective dose, right? Because you need to be able to keep the lights on and pay your bills. But you've got to just follow with the same intention of, I love creating content, but I'm only going to be able to sharp each morning and do it. If I'm doing it, like documenting something that I'm passionate about, that's like serving my life right now. And that's got to be the North Star. You just got, I guess, singular focus on that piece rather than going, how do I convert all these FIFA fans across to...

57:12Theo Baker:Yeah, yeah. I think keeping the health side of fitness as the priority rather than the career side of fitness is probably the best way that I'd navigate what I'd do. Like I still prioritise training first and then filming the training after if that... Yeah. You know, that approach to things. about you um i don't really have an off i would say which is and when when i do have enough it takes a long time to turn off if that makes sense like if we ever go on holiday it takes me like three days before i can actually like relax are you filming content when you're away sometimes yeah yeah there's certain holidays we go on where it's like there's nothing there's absolutely nothing like who says there's nothing you or the missus uh both of us well i i it's normally to be honest actually it's not who says it it we just like i need it yeah i actually need that break um i've realized that like recently is the moment i wake up the moment i go to sleep is just always on like there's there's sometimes i'll come home and i just can't actually talk i'm like that i don't know if you find that like oh yeah i get home and i'm just like and jody's like brilliant we spoke about this pride in me it's it's um it's a career that's incredible because it gives you so much freedom but in the flexibility is you're always able to work so you only basically can switch off when you give yourself the time to it's been made even worse though for both of you

58:40Ollie Fletcher:because it was like monetized YouTube episodes monetize a podcast but now you're getting your own brand deals so now there's going to be deliverables of like okay I'm sponsored by this supplement brand or this clothing brand or this sports brand I've got to show up here or do that it's almost you're you're um you know it's obviously your demise of your own success here and it is very difficult when you're your own boss you are the business to create those those

59:03Theo Baker:boundaries and i think that's why like i've really i know i can't you know me i'm five minutes late to everything right maybe a little bit longer today you were 45 minutes yeah i said push it to three though and you didn't relay that you said push it to three as we got on the train platform no I missed you this morning voice notes check them back okay right anyways my point is like I'm really trying but I I find like there's just not enough time like I'm all I feel like Jodie always says this to me she's like there's always a rush like when I come in the house there's always a rush like why can't you just like take a sec I feel like I'm always I'm always rushing and no matter how often I leave early enough it's always just like 110 mile an hour

59:44Ollie Fletcher:what's the motivator for more though is it financial sure is it just like no it's not it's just that is the purpose right now like the purpose is just

59:52Theo Baker:to go 100 mile an hour i don't find i don't think that way you you think differently to me in that aspect don't you yeah go go go always has it always been that

1:00:06Theo Baker:You've, I think, well, for the duration I've known you, you've always been, yeah, foot on the accelerator. Maybe last five years it's been like that, probably. But it's also the reason why I'm not, don't get me wrong, I burn out, I actually get ill. It's actually true. Just work until you're ill. I work until I'm ill, then I take two days off and then I go back. but I'd say the thing that just hiring has just helped me like try and prevent that as much as possible my pitch side takes care of itself back side take I just turn up and be talent because that's what I like my own stuff like my Ben and Kane are just brilliant they look after it and then Sepp and Daryl my managers look after everything as well so we've now we're fortunate and I think you're the same we're in a position where everything sort of runs the ship runs itself if that makes sense but I have noticed with this Ironman training obviously I thought I was busy before it and then you add 16 hours a week of training that it's just about the time management is just honestly impossible like for example today I was like taking my accountant to meet on a line bike because that's literally the only time I could fit them in in the day which is not what you want really but I know I think after this Ironman those 16 I'm like oh my god I'm going to have so much time you'll feel it yeah it'll be filled immediately mate yeah exactly but I'm excited because we feel hopefully making YouTube videos again

1:01:34Ollie Fletcher:but it's going to feel weird yeah do you think about like I think you've already answered the question but do you think about hard stops other than when you're on holiday infrequently a couple times a year like Sundays are going to be my day just to do nothing or this time of the day is where I'm going to do my deep work or just like fuck around and not even think about work or is it just every moment do you know what I wouldn't

1:01:57Theo Baker:necessarily they've ever ever planned like every now and again i find oh what the hell like thursday morning i actually got nothing so running by his calendar yes yeah literally like i just like random one morning i wake up like oh my there's not what the hell this is empty so we can we can chill or when i get in in the evenings i very much like to just do nothing if possible

1:02:19Ollie Fletcher:are you open to change that uh not at the moment because you are smart and you um you you are a high performer I agree with him why are you smirking at me you're a high performer right because you wouldn't get to where you got to but if you speak to anyone that talks about just like and again I listen to Mr. Beast on Steven it's obvious the level of obsession that guy has there is no room for anything else and he's the same just works himself till he's ill and then he's just like lie down for a minute and goes again so I suppose if you're trying to be at that level that's what's required I definitely know I need to the what's the word you know you get repetitive Strain injury from football.

1:02:58Ollie Fletcher:Yeah. That caused my hip surgery. Exactly. You work so hard that you're ill for a few days. Yeah. You're smart enough to know that maybe there needs to be some hard stops in.

1:03:09Theo Baker:Yeah, I know. I definitely need to. I know there's a hire I want to make, which will alleviate a lot of that. And I think on a personal point of view, especially with Jodie, I need to, when I get in, try and remove both, if that makes sense. I need to just like slow down. But, you know, it's very hard to slow down when you're going so fast all the time.

1:03:31Ollie Fletcher:Yeah, yeah, completely.

1:03:33Theo Baker:I don't echo those sentiments. I think I have a bit more balance in terms of when I can switch off to when it's go mode to CEO. But I don't know if, this is weird me saying this, but I have a dog and I feel like that helps a lot because as soon as when I get in, it's just like I'm present in the moment with my pet.

1:03:53Ollie Fletcher:I think that's a fair point I was very much I mean I'm still like you in a large we've got a team now of over 40 people so there is like a delegation and a sharing of workload but I still like to think I still have the same mindset like I did back in 2016 in terms of like my work ethic but I was very much like you burnt out around the same kind of age as soon as you have kids like this is just a different perspective I don't necessarily think it's like a kids thing for you it's just like you do start to soften the edges a little bit because you realise that if you have got to fill the cup in a few different places, there needs to be energy in there to be able to do that.

1:04:32Ollie Fletcher:Lauren, as an example, sounds like you've got a pretty good partner in crime to help you do what you're doing. She was very much just like almost just like she would – she knew how much it meant to me to be successful in rugby or to be successful in the business, that she kind of just allowed it to happen and allowed me to sort of like push myself off a cliff at times. but the kids it's not like I don't think she necessarily allowed me she just gave me space to do it whereas now with the kids it's not that they're allowing or not allowing you but they've given just given me a completely different perspective viewpoint on what I'm doing what sort of role have your kind of families and partners played in this because it's quite a unique situation to be in I'm going to be a content creator 100 % and I'm going to make money from doing it

1:05:14Theo Baker:mine were quite reserved about the initial dropping out of love yeah for that is doing medicine for Loughby and his

1:05:21Ollie Fletcher:yeah

1:05:23Theo Baker:but I mean naturally given where I am and how much I love my family and stuff now they've always supported me through pretty much everything but there was one moment where I brought my mum and dad a Christmas present to like a holiday abroad and they're like okay maybe he's actually doing alright for himself we just let him fly yeah I can't ask for a better support network I've got a fiancé who is like the greatest woman on the planet and then i mean even my support network extends to like my actual direct friends not even my family so and they're within the industry so they can help me with any endeavor that actually matters business-wise as well um i mean for me i i would say that i started doing way better on youtube when i met jody and i don't think that's a coincidence i think she pushed me as well which i i'd put her credit her with a lot of success especially in the last four years um mom dad are great their biggest supporters mom actually still does like a bit of work for me as well so like we always say so she's helped me a lot with like finances over the last few years and like she has access to my calendar and everything because if it's not if like the calendar my google calendar is basically like gospel if it's because like i could be in spain i could be in england i don't know where she knows where i am at all times which is great um other than that yeah it's just mainly friends yeah well my dad's retired and he literally watches every episode of Pitchside that's ever been released yeah and has absolutely yeah yeah I think that's one way of them reconnecting with me even if it's not necessarily in person is it yeah because I do I do slack on visiting family as much as I should oh but you don't though I do I do he does it every weekend he's back in Leicester that's not true that's not true every time I message you you're like I'm on the train with the dog taking off to Leicester Yeah, to drop them off so I can go on holiday.

1:07:19I've not been back to sleep within months, which is awful.

1:07:23Theo Baker:You can pick floors and everything you do, can't you?

1:07:26Ollie Fletcher:We've discussed some of the brand deals. Obviously, you're wearing some of the merch right now. They've probably come thick and fast over more recent years. How do you approach it then for young people that are getting the success, that are getting deals come in? Because often big brands will use people like us as commodities just to do this for us, and we're just foot soldiers. do you approach you from a long and again it's context dependent are you looking to you know get the mortgage for the house in which kind of time you might need quick cash whatever it may be but do you approach it from a long-term vision perspective how you view in your careers and these opportunities is it long-term build the brand think you always think that way or is there certain things you may be going here's a paid job i'll do that i think it's changed over the last

1:08:06Theo Baker:few years i think financially it's allowed me to change then about you like back in the day it'd be yes to everything no matter like yeah fucking rage shadow legends what's that it's an iphone like realistically i'm probably not sat there playing that game all the time but ultimately tell people you are yeah probably yeah like i needed the money like it's not gonna like lie yeah like it was a fun game yeah but you sometimes you get in the point in your life where you actually just need the cash like you need to make a living right i'm now fortunate enough that I now want to work with brands on more of a longer term basis to actually rather than do a one-off transaction you actually want to build a partnership with them right yeah which I think is a way better way of working with working with brands and even if it is a one-off partnership it will be with a brand that I actually a use b like or c just like they're a good company to I want to get to know them yeah so it's definitely changed over the last few years and it has to be synergist with what you do as a content creator as well right has to support what you still believe otherwise it's going back to the authenticity thing again but i've probably said no to more brand deals in the last sort of six months than my entire period of game position to say no

1:09:21Ollie Fletcher:yeah of course process i mean you've said sort of abc it's not brands that you're aligned with you use the product the obviously the deal needs to commercially make sense but is there is there anything else that you're thinking about why are you saying no to some

1:09:34Theo Baker:of these deals um they just don't suit the content that i'm putting out as a creator and i think that if i've changed my content into something that is more resemblant to what i truly believe in and what i'm passionate about then also the brands that i work with should follow suit as well i can't be i can't be jumping into the fitness industry and then still be you know bringing on i can't think of a good example yeah anyone but i feel like you and i that partners work with now i use everything i work with yeah like i use something you have to embody what you say otherwise people will never take you seriously i think yeah yeah you've um

1:10:18Ollie Fletcher:you've obviously both got subject matter expertise in the content creation side right because you've done the 10 000 hours in it i think the content you've been creating is like followed by a passion you've obviously both got multiple businesses now around it why have you not started a brand or a business or a... Great question, Oli Marchand.

1:10:37Theo Baker:We've talked about offerings. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what it is? It's still just in the works, isn't it? I have a separate one as well I've been thinking about doing. Oh, he's not told you about it. It wouldn't... I don't want to say, I'll tell you off camera. A bit of a rogue one, to be honest. But I think it's the... For me, like, I'm not... In my head, I'm not a businessman, so I don't know where the hell you start. so for me if I'm ever going to do something I need someone alongside me who can get shit done because I'm so busy with everything else if I'm going to make something my own I need to commit 100 % I'm just not ready to do that but I need to find the time to be ready to do that so I need to somehow drop something to put 100 % in if I make does that same for you or yeah well just going back to the actual question itself I think like we've spent so long building a brand that if we were ever to create a product or you know something that's a branch away from content itself people probably would jump on that invest they've spent so much time getting to know us that it is a great idea and we probably should continue putting work into doing it but

1:11:47Ollie Fletcher:i'm seeing if there's an investment opportunity yeah well likewise most people because i think most people probably skip the steps that you guys have gone through in terms of like building your personal brand and being super relatable and giving as much as you have and just like try and sell shit straight away. I think it's certainly more difficult for you guys, although not necessarily because the barrier to entry around like whether it's a product or service is so low. Like it doesn't, you can, you said, you know, you're not necessarily a businessman. I'd argue the opposite. I think everything you decision you're making is very much like a businessman would make it.

1:12:23Ollie Fletcher:So I think it's just maybe about just trying to, in the journeys that you've got a fitness had such a profound impact on your hip and now transforming not only your content but how you how you are physically um thinking about either a product or service that's fundamentally you would want there's a gap there in the stuff that you're passionate about and 100 bring it to bring it to market um just talking on fitness a little bit more aside from like the fitness content side of things what's it do for you yeah i know you're you're super into it but What's fitness kind of done for you?

1:12:54Theo Baker:I think it keeps me in a pretty level headspace, which I always find is probably important for me because I'm in there quite a lot. How many days a week do you train?

1:13:09Theo Baker:Seven. I mean, I train seven days a week pretty much, but obviously one of them will be a lot lighter than the rest of them. What format that is has changed over the years. At the moment, obviously, I'm training for the same marathon you are, so it's a lot of running. But, yeah, I can't describe how important it is to me. Get you out of your own head. Yeah, I'm definitely a different person on a day that I haven't trained to the day that I have. I can relate. So, yeah.

1:13:38Ollie Fletcher:Would you say it's very much, obviously you train for the marathon, very much performance focused, like goal orientated in that sense? Currently it is.

1:13:46Theo Baker:Currently it is. I was under the toxic pressure of being an aesthetic person first and then performance second. But I think over the years I've slowly sort of shifted. Yeah, it does. It does. Yeah. Yeah. But my understanding of fitness is still growing. I've got so much to learn. I think everyone does. Yeah.

1:14:07Ollie Fletcher:I think if anyone ever says that they don't have anything to learn, it's like, that's a sign to stay away from it. Yeah, yeah.

1:14:14Theo Baker:Mine's almost the opposite to you. You know, when you were aesthetic, I've never been aesthetic. I like food too much. Like, I couldn't care less what body fat percentage I was. Never felt pressure, though, from being under the public eye about it? Never. Particularly as you cross over into fitness? Never. That's good. I've definitely seen my old photo of myself where I'm looking a bit podgy in the face and maybe I probably need to lose it a little bit. But I've never desired a six-pack. I've never wanted that. For me, it's all about performance. like the amount of injuries I've had I just need to be in the shape where I can play football I can do these things for me it's about longevity and health like my goal is to be a 50 year old who can go do a half Ironman like I just I would just love to do that I think you have longevity I've had some heart problems like the fitter I am the longer I'm gonna live yeah the buffer hopefully fingers crossed touch wood I also think not to blow Theo's trumpet for him but he's probably the best person I know at absorbing comments and criticism and I think if you're on social media

1:15:18Ollie Fletcher:am I getting this right one of you used to get bantered the whole time

1:15:22Theo Baker:probably me oh yeah it's almost definitely Theo if that's what you're Sam told you that one

1:15:27Ollie Fletcher:yeah mate I think you told me

1:15:30Theo Baker:yeah yeah but I just love it just grate it I reckon I get told to kill myself every day that's not what I was implying but I mean like you taking your stuff to social media if you're slightly out of shape and someone goes oh mate you look so bad it's just wore off a duck's back for you whereas previously for me I probably cared a lot maybe too less so now but like certainly in the period where I was aesthetic I would only upload stuff that I was I knew would be appreciated by other people because of the pressure of knowing what people would say if I wasn't. We have this thing with Reeve on the show.

1:16:11Theo Baker:It's a meme now though. It's not. Oh, it's not. It is. Reeve replies to comments. I don't. I haven't replied to anything. I think replied to comments is fine. But you did. Maybe you don't. Less now. He'd always reply to negative comments and try and argue against them. And we always used to say to him, what are you doing? you're just feeding you're feeding what these people want yeah so you yeah rule number one is just don't argue with people yeah yeah you can never I never reply to comments ever unless they're funny but the hate comes with it

1:16:45Ollie Fletcher:yeah exactly it's endearing to know that you've got thick skin as well well if I didn't have thick skin yeah don't say that on that note is there anything you've done on camera that obviously can't be lost from the internet that you're just like fuck how do we do live stream or something

1:17:04Theo Baker:oh there's plenty of semi-cancellable moments really yeah 100 % we've got an archive of I went for it yeah there could be the end of it in like the 2021 Ibiza days there was too much sharing online

1:17:19Ollie Fletcher:you filmed yourself in Ibiza no we like

1:17:21Theo Baker:the stories we shared too many stories from like even even like even the podcast gets cut down which I imagine happens to this as well a lot of our edits

1:17:33Ollie Fletcher:we very rarely edit anything out

1:17:35Theo Baker:oh really? we sometimes have to sometimes it's an obligation you've got people to keep happy I've definitely overshared we definitely had moments where to be fair some of the more crazy stuff that's happened on camera has actually probably helped us in terms of virality we had an incident on Pitchside where Tom, one of the co-hosts like I snapped his arm in half. And that was pretty horrific on a friendship point of view, wasn't it? That was like kind of traumatic. But he took it like an absolute champ. But it was like, he's got this fucking scar all the way down there now, like life-changing event essentially.

1:18:16Theo Baker:But it went global. It went global. It grew the podcast. Obviously I'll regret it ever happening. Yeah. But the outcome of it, actually you can turn a negative into a huge positive if you can look at that kind of...

1:18:28Ollie Fletcher:away you obviously you reference a where you've gone viral on it you spoke earlier about worrying more about views and subscribers how much do you focus on the viral nature of content now versus creating a video that genuinely you're going to enjoy doing or are you trying to find that sweet spot where it's going to be both because surely with the volume of stuff you're doing my spectrum

1:18:47Theo Baker:is way more towards creating stuff that i think offers value than virality now what if you went

1:18:53Ollie Fletcher:so like value-driven education that whatever and just like no one watches it well what status you

1:18:58Theo Baker:give up again it's as i say as i say it is a spectrum so if it got ever got to a stage where i'm like okay well i'm not really achieving what i want to in terms of metrics i'd probably shift it back the other way you're still helping someone yeah absolutely yeah even if it's through even if it's through entertainment alone i suppose like but there's definitely a balance in that i'd say yep for me the main channel now is yeah i'm creating i'm i'm in position where i'm hoping that if i'm creating something a lot of the videos i make now are very much youtube videos for youtube but then i also have like the iron man which is very much for me and i'm i'm hoping that people can still relate to that and they will relate to that like the half iron mans i've done not necessarily youtube-esque videos are they like you've done similar well you do a lot of it they're not YouTube as videos but people can get a lot of value from it and I think that will hopefully

1:19:55Ollie Fletcher:correspond into more viewership you said the Ironman's view how much on a percentage how much is the Ironman for you versus the Ironman telling a story for you for your channel say it's 70 % for

1:20:07Theo Baker:me oh maybe 70 % for me 30 % for the audience I'd say I realized it I didn't realize how important when it was for the audience until the one I did last year, the half Ironman, when I was meeting people in the race, saying I'm racing this because of you. And I was like, shit, that's kind of actually crazy. And like the amount of messages I get saying, I've just done this because of you, I've signed up to this because of you. That's when I realised, oh, I actually do have a responsibility to hopefully keep inspiring people.

1:20:42Ollie Fletcher:Yeah. How do you maintain that responsibility beyond the Ironman? what's next i know what's next for me you can't say yeah uh it's just event different events more

1:20:53Theo Baker:of the same but also do you go longer do you go no i'm going shorter okay because i think so many people fall into the traffic getting bigger and bigger and bigger but it's not about getting bigger and bigger you know you can you there's so many different ways you can do it there's so many different targets you can do i'm fortunate that i love doing like for me if i'm training I have to have a goal if I don't have an event or a goal I just won't be in the gym which is bad but I need something to work towards all the time so it works well for me to keep having these storylines I see I find

1:21:23Ollie Fletcher:I like hearing it but I find that crazy like if someone would train 16 hours a week but without the goal of doing the Ironman

1:21:29Theo Baker:you wouldn't train at all I would train but not to that extent it holds me accountable to train for sure having the goal holds me accountable yeah which I need someone to hold me accountable

1:21:39Ollie Fletcher:do you think there's a level of you see you train seven days a week and if you weren't doing the youtube i think you probably still train absolutely is there a level of now it's become who you are as like an identity

1:21:50Theo Baker:i love it i think i would train for sure like you know the the hybrid style training that's what i enjoy because i think going to the gym and purely lifting weights can be a bit boring whereas if you add in a bit of um functional movement bit of you know cardio it makes it more exciting doesn't when you're in the gym. I would still train and I'd do it for me, but I wouldn't be doing 16 hours a week. That's excessive for anyone, I think. That's sports specific though, That's very sports specific, yeah. But I would train probably five days a week. Like going on a long bike ride is just incredible.

1:22:24Theo Baker:Yeah. I'd do that. I absolutely love it. You've started doing it recently. It's the best and you get a nice cinnamon bun and a coffee. It's just like nothing beats it.

1:22:32Ollie Fletcher:I haven't done the cinnamon bun bit yet. Oh, it's so good.

1:22:34Theo Baker:I'd always run as well. For me, running's the best sport. that's still a format of training though you'd still be training each week I'd run 3-4 times a week no matter what because the like the thing what I've learned in this training is like swimming recently it's starting to click for me I'm starting to enjoy it

1:22:53Ollie Fletcher:did you start at ground zero swimming? yeah that's good to hear because I know that when I do the Ironman I'm starting at a bit easier you are going to do an Ironman? I will do it eventually if I died and hadn't done an Ironman

1:23:02Theo Baker:do you know which one you want to do?

1:23:05Ollie Fletcher:I'd probably go for one that's like an experience probably outside the country and yeah there's some really cool ones out there but I I can swim I can't but I can't Ironman swim I could swim but you can't swim like I had adult swimming lessons yeah that's what I would do I'm having actually I think I think I'd enjoy that because again the ability to it's a bit like Jiu Jitsu for me like the ability to learn the skill at the age in which you're at and be like excuse the quote but the white belt yeah I think your Jiu Jitsu

1:23:34Theo Baker:will help you massively with that because it's the most technical out of the three sports like you you can go and swim for half an hour as many times as you want but you're not going to get quicker unless you improve technically and learn how to breathe like the breathing is the biggest thing for the swimming but the reason i just don't really like it is because there's just so much aggro with it with the swimming yeah like with the run you put on your train as you go yeah yeah with the bike it's like a little bit it can be a bit aggro depending on where you live or you go on your indoor trainer.

1:24:06Theo Baker:Swimming you have to find a pool. You have to pack your bag. You have to drive to the pool. You have to walk to the pool. You have to get out. You have to get changed. Then you have to go in the pool. Then you get out and get changed again. You have to dry. You have to shower. And like an hour swim is two hours. It's just it doesn't sound like a lot but when you're doing it a lot it is very just like

1:24:25Ollie Fletcher:oh when will this end? Particularly because you've got the skill acquisition as well as like putting the effort in whereas running you just

1:24:32Theo Baker:you run more Yeah, run more, you get fitter. You can swim as much as you want, but if you're swimming like this the whole time, you're not going to get better. It's not a linear input-output, is it? No, so having lessons with that is interesting. I'm excited. What's after the Berlin Marathon? I want to do John O 'Groats to Land's End on bike. Oh, not you as well. Yeah, is that what you're doing? No, no. Okay. That's a lot. That's big. Yeah, probably for charity. So that's the transition from running to on the bike. which I think is a little bit easier for me. I'm more a proficient cyclist than I am a runner.

1:25:08Ollie Fletcher:Nice. Do you think, is there a shelf life for you guys being the main character in this stuff? It's probably linked back to like, how do you monetise beyond you two being the face of the... Is there? Or do you think, because I remember... It's tough to know,

1:25:22Theo Baker:because we're currently just in, we're just, I don't want to use the quote, but like we're in the golden days at the moment. We don't know when they're going to... You're in the golden days. Yeah, that's what I mean.

1:25:33Ollie Fletcher:I remember being a PT or coming into the fitness industry going like, who's the 40-year-old personal trainer? Are they on the gym floor at 6am delivering coaching? I want to see what the future maybe looks like.

1:25:43Theo Baker:I have this argument with Jodie all the time. She's like, you're not doing another Ironman next year or another half. Because I get it, it's so much time away from people and family. So it's more of a toll on them than it is actually on you. But also, at the same time, right now, being an an athlete is actually my job right now so i need to put in the time now to get the get the reward for the future but at the same time i've now realized that actually i love it this is who i am and i am whether i make content or not i'm going to do this for the rest of my life maybe not to the extent of what is right now and i'll bring it back and actually make it more of like a lifestyle rather than just like 150 % right now.

1:26:29Theo Baker:But this is who I am now. I live your life like a full-time athlete. Hmm. It's not my question, is it? He looks to you. I'd say so. Not with the diet.

1:26:43Ollie Fletcher:You just reference yourself as an athlete.

1:26:45Theo Baker:I do or I don't. I could definitely do more. I do in terms of mentally, physically and training. and I fuel correctly for everything. But if I was an athlete, I'd probably be way more stricter with my diet. I'm under the impression of I'm having that donut. That donut's not killing me. I've burned so many calories, it's fine. But a nutritionist will tell me, oh, that's going in your cholesterol, blah, blah, blah. I don't fucking care. I'm going to eat that donut. I love it. Well, I'm going to not eat that donut because I mean to be fair you rocked up with a Costa baguette and a cake but that's the point like I barely eat I need to eat I'm burning so many calories you burn a lot of calories a day it's something you need I know you eat a lot better than I but convenience is key sometimes for me and I just have to get the calories in at the moment because I'm burning so many so it's like

1:27:41Ollie Fletcher:I'm not casting shade on the nutrition I like the fact that you now refer to yourself in this phase of your life as an athlete I think it's cool I had someone on the podcast the other week who was a club promoter, now turned triathlete, just qualified for the world champs. Amazing. He refers to himself as an athlete. And the deals that he's getting are all about him doing the triathlon.

1:28:02Theo Baker:Just to circle back to your original question though, if you'd have asked, how old were you when you started YouTube? 18. Okay. And 21 year old me, that we'd still be doing this even in a different form of what we originally started at. It would be like... Didn't think about it. Yeah, different language almost. I was every year doing YouTube. I thought it was going to be my last. Really? Up until about five years ago, yeah.

1:28:28Ollie Fletcher:Do you think about what you'd do if you weren't YouTubing?

1:28:31Theo Baker:I'd be a PE teacher. Be a PE teacher? Yeah. I would be, yeah. But now I just... The thing I love about training is it's your purpose as well, right? If you train well, you're going to do well in everything.

1:28:45Ollie Fletcher:We spoke about some investments that you've made.

1:28:48Theo Baker:why did you make those investments I saw the potential in runner when it was very very small and I just I was it was got to the point where you work with all these brands on this one-off transactional thing and actually if I want to work with runner this brand I want to be a part of it if I'm incentivized with equity I'm going to do way more output than if it was a one-off transaction I wanted to be a part of it I saw the vision I met Ben I thought this guy is he's motivated he the way he talks he's so passionate about it i want to be a part of this and that's when i asked to join and they were lucky and they held a spot for me i'm so glad i did because it's gone from like they the the amount of subscribers they had when i joined was so minimal compared to now and i've seen that growth i'll be part of that growth so i think being a part of something is way better than having a brand deal here and there.

1:29:47Theo Baker:Because you're invested in it yourself. Quite literally, yeah. Yeah, you literally are invested in it.

1:29:51Ollie Fletcher:I mean, all these, you referenced earlier that you don't think you're a businessman. All the things you're talking about, equity in a business, the way you're thinking is very much like a business owner, entrepreneur. Yeah, and again, like you said there, it's way better than having a brand deal. Like it begs the question to start to build something of your own beyond these channels. What about you? investments and things you think about kind of thing um not to the success that theo's had with

1:30:16Theo Baker:his but i mean that's a that's a pretty like it's an outlier it is an outlier i know great bit of

1:30:23Ollie Fletcher:technology great founders behind it running on a massive boom yeah the strava acquisition like strava obviously like flying right now it's a perfect storm right 100 i think if a lot of the

1:30:35Theo Baker:time well certainly in my experience of investing you're investing in the people behind the product or brand i don't know if that's necessarily the case for you with ben or if it was like you invested in runner because you saw the potential in runner or you invested in runner because of then a great product with a great ceo yeah everything aligns yeah yeah that's the same for me for stuff that i've actually invested in it's you invest in the person that's pushing the actual brand itself I think it's definitely opened the doors for more opportunities now I found like now I'm actively looking for the next yeah the next one and there's a couple now that is happening right now and I actively believe in them and I want to be a part of it so now it's quite exciting

1:31:17Ollie Fletcher:as well anything is it software businesses fitness businesses or especially a friend's business

1:31:21Theo Baker:which is even better right because you believe you know that this person is putting everything into this company, you're seeing it doing well and they have come to you for this investment, you know, you have a proper friendship bond of trust in them, you know, they're not going to screw you over and... Win-win. It's a win-win, yeah. And I believe in them. If you believe in something, I think you should go for it. Yeah.

1:31:43Ollie Fletcher:Bit of a tangent, but I've seen you do some crazy things with the football. And that's not a question directed at me. No, I've not seen you do any. Greats and a half. Greats and a half. You're clearly quite gifted, as a footballer, right?

1:31:58Theo Baker:I'm okay, yeah. I never know how to answer this. Don't be modest, just answer. I don't like... I played a lot when I was young. Did you want to be a footballer? That's all I wanted to be. I was at Brighton for a while on trial and then I got the Palace on trial and they offered me a development contract when I was 17, which meant it's not like you're going to be a professional footballer, right? It's a development contract so you have to learn alongside playing in their academy. You have to do your BTECs, whatever it was at the time. And it meant moving to Croydon and I was just about to go to university.

1:32:33Theo Baker:So it was either I go for this development contract, move to Croydon or I go to university. And to be honest...

1:32:39Ollie Fletcher:You chose to go to university to study to be a PE teacher? Yeah.

1:32:43Theo Baker:And I started doing YouTube and I thought, am I going to make it in football? No. Let's be honest, right? Very mature. Chance I'm not going to make it. and I'm glad I made that decision because I've achieved more in football doing YouTube. I talked about it this morning actually with a friend. Like, if I'd gone the Crystal Palace route, I wouldn't have made it. I'd be doing whatever. I chose this route. I've got a hat-trick at Wembley Stadium. I've got more goals at Wembley than Lionel Messi. There's a soundbite. Yeah, come on. So it's like, I'm just glad I made that decision. Like, yes, I know people who got to the under-23s.

1:33:23Theo Baker:like you get under 23s you should be playing men's football released, gone gone from the world of football it's a cruel sport there's so many people who think they're going to make it and they don't it's the same as my journey at Sports Science at Loughborough I've done more in sport than I reckon 95 % of the people that graduate with that degree have done which is crazy to think about but that's what our career offers us in terms of opportunities

1:33:49Ollie Fletcher:let's finish with you said they're playing some of the biggest games in front of crazy crowds that's got to be fucking surreal playing with some you know famous players at Wembley scoring goals yeah when like you said at 17 you decided not to

1:34:03Theo Baker:be a footballer yeah it's it's um it's so weird like it's gonna sound such like I'm such a cocky twat but it's that it feels so normal when you're actually playing with them yeah in a weird way because when you speak to them they're you realize they're just normal humans they're normal guys and when you're playing on the pitch, you're so focused on the game and you're so, you haven't fanned with everyone else. Yeah, you forget about the stadium. It isn't until you maybe get the ball and like, like the running or you score or whatever, but it feels so normal when you're out there and it's such a bizarre, like really bizarre feeling.

1:34:43Theo Baker:I can't describe it. First one's different. Yeah, first one is different. First one's different. You try and absorb as much as you can, like every scream every shout it's like oh my god what am i doing here it's imposter syndrome to the max but like without sounding crazy after like two or three you get desensitized to the like the feeling of being there i think become like um a leader to the guys who are doing it for the first time yeah so because you've been there and done it like the senior pros the experience ones but you use your focus isn't really on the crowd and the atmosphere and what not the focus is on this guy's really nervous you need to try and just like calm him down like we had a in the game this year sketch the goalie he's the really short guy he saved a penalty in the penalty shoot like he conceded nine goals but he actually did really well he was so nervous before the game he was like shaking he was like he threw up in the toilets and like this guy is like one of the biggest streamers in the world but he's never done this before so he's shitting himself so your focus is on him like you almost don't have the time to think about what you're actually about to do and you have this weird confidence of like yeah I'm going to go out there I'm going to score you have to have that otherwise you go out there be a bit timid and get injured or you're too scared to touch well you have to go out there with confidence

1:36:06Ollie Fletcher:is it like when it comes around to like this year's one or next year's one whenever it is is it like a selection process is there pressure on it or is it like a given now because you're at a certain level as much as you're in? There's always a selection process

1:36:16Theo Baker:but like you can expedite yourself to the top of the list.

1:36:22Ollie Fletcher:By just being friendly with the... No, as in like by performing well

1:36:26Theo Baker:in the previous year, by keeping up on top of your content for the duration between... Who beats the team? The Sidemen Trayman, which is the Sidemen and... Yeah, it's a collective basis of theirs. Yeah. But like I didn't think I was playing in this game this year. I got asked two weeks before, was it? It was very last minute. So it's like no one's spot is really safe, I'd say. It's just... You can help. You can help the process of being picked. Like you scoring a hat-trick last year is probably going to help you for next year. Hopefully, yeah. If there is next year. If there is next year, yeah.

1:37:04Ollie Fletcher:Let's close on what you think the landscape looks like for the next few years then on YouTube in particular.

1:37:10Theo Baker:I mean with pitch side I think you and I are very much on the case of we are this season is huge for us like we're we've just had our biggest month ever in terms of revenue and views metric wise and

1:37:24Ollie Fletcher:what do you spend so I don't necessarily tell me the revenue but what do you spend to get your biggest month ever such a business man did you all come into this

1:37:32Theo Baker:yeah I know I know I'm just doing the conversation and it's immediately like how is this broken It's so different.

1:37:43Theo Baker:It's different to you also because you talk about if you need to sell more product, you need to buy more product. You need to make more products. You need to spend more. Whereas us, we can get a bigger revenue, bigger views by creating better content for free. We get better titles. We've made a conscious effort of doing more short-form content and it's paid off massively. That's not cost us any money. Or additional subject matter. i.e. like doing extra for another 20 minutes like the tiktok ideas we were on about obviously it probably doesn't produce the same results but we could spend another 20 minutes in the studio just talking about stuff and yeah absolutely absolutely so it's okay i get that but like in

1:38:23Ollie Fletcher:terms of your opex for um you know studio lighting like what sort of what level are we talking that's

1:38:29Theo Baker:not on us yeah that's what that's what comes with being under a studio yeah fine so you just rock up pay you rent yeah yeah that was us committing to the production company but for them they've got 20 staff oh it's more than that now they've got a lot of costs yeah but that's their business model that's their

1:38:45Ollie Fletcher:and I suppose can you if you increase the production level is it like if you increase production level by 10 % 20 % you can probably get a better output well that's what we're discussing

1:38:56Theo Baker:right now we're looking to take on an extra person which will cost more but we think that this season with the way things are projected it'll be worth it it'll be worth it making the extra content especially with the World Cup next year like we want to be out there for the whole thing that's not going to be cheap but we want to make the investment for that because we feel like we're we're number two in the UK on sports right now which is the highest we've ever been we're number one on Monday we've never had that before ever so we're like what it's like when Liverpool won the league last year right they're on top and they've spent yeah 300 million or whatever it is they bought whilst on top we don't ever want to be complacent I think that's the biggest competition

1:39:36Ollie Fletcher:not competition but who you

1:39:39Theo Baker:it is the overlap isn't it I think that's fucking sick yeah but also I also don't see them as competition no because we're not that's not our we're behind Gary Lineker's podcast right now but people watch the Gary Lineker podcast the rest of football because they want to hear Alan Shearer and Michael Richards Gary Lineker talking about football yeah with a joke but more of a serious point of view whereas for us we're in such a different lane yeah the niche we found is not like it's not mutually exclusive to people wanting to listen to actual football content we've kind of found a different path which i think is probably why we are so successful if we can say that yeah but this is exciting for us i think we want to go for it even more yeah fine so so i'll

1:40:26Ollie Fletcher:use me as an example increasing production value is something that when you have the means and the resource to be able to do it is something that on this journey you should be looking to try and do for sure yeah frequency of uploading diversity of what you're uploading longer form hour long whatever 20 minute just till that down volume is is like right now but this volume but the the

1:40:46Theo Baker:level of production in the like the titles are amazing the thumbnails are amazing like the topics we're talking about are very relevant and topical right now like we're uploading one podcast a week yeah but from that podcast we got four to five youtube videos a week on the on on YouTube we upload daily clips on Instagram Reels daily clips on TikTok and daily shorts on YouTube Shorts so there's talking about more relevant subject matter is completely free and it doesn't change the amount of time we spend in the studio we just talk about more appropriate things for what people want to watch that's easier to do with football than gym content of course yeah I know that he's trying to extract stuff for his name I mean I am genuinely interested and any bits that can help me With gym content, your longer form stuff could be a bit more serious, a bit more you as a real person, your day-to-day life, and then your short form stuff is like you can gamify anything.

1:41:43Theo Baker:Yeah, grabbing eyeballs. Yeah, gamify things.

1:41:46Ollie Fletcher:Quantify what short form means. TikToks, Instagram reels. YouTube short. Yeah. Five, 15 seconds. Yeah. A lot of vertical.

1:41:53Theo Baker:I'd say, I'd also say like Instagram reels is people follow you on Instagram for you. So it's maybe a little bit more, you upload stuff on Instagram, which is more you, more real, more raw, running footage, et cetera, whereas TikTok is way more... Yeah, algorithm-based. It's like mad. TikTok is where you do your gamify stuff, you do your fitness challenges, or you do who can lift the most in this, who can ski the most in a minute, et cetera. And Instagram is more serious. Yeah, it's the personal platform, isn't it? How many subscribers have you got on YouTube? Me personally is 1.6 million. Wow.

1:42:30Theo Baker:Me personally, 950k. Wow. But then you combine. But with all of our other channels, like. Pitchside, 320.

1:42:39Ollie Fletcher:What are you going to do when you get to a million? That's quite a huge issue.

1:42:44Theo Baker:Yeah, I had the idea of buying a watch and then I could have that as like a sentimental item that I could give to my firstborn child, which I think is quite nice. That's very, that's great. Because then I know that that's my memory at that point in my life as well. You should celebrate your success. I'm going to, yeah. That's great.

1:43:01Ollie Fletcher:A million subscribers, that's a big achievement. I keep asking more questions. Do you care that you haven't had much of a, not want to say much, but the percentage of people that have followed you across onto Instagram isn't as high? Is that something that you think about? No. Do you focus all content energy into YouTube first and then repost on your repost?

1:43:24Theo Baker:I'm primarily a YouTuber. A lot of the time that I spend, whether that's like pre-production actually making the videos or post-production is youtube form so

1:43:33Ollie Fletcher:do you think if in order for me to be more successful i need to take the mindset of i'm a youtuber rather than because i just i'm literally just one platform and i'm just posting instagram um but you should if that's the platform you prefer that's true focus on that yeah and youtube

1:43:50Theo Baker:can take a back seat for now i would say like you you are definitely youtube focused yeah i'm a whereas I yeah I'm YouTube focused but I'm also TikTok focused like I make a lot of TikToks not necessarily like the crazy ones but they're in my own style how big is your TikTok following 750 ,000 wow so I'm like I made a conscious effort four or five years ago to grow my TikTok to because I knew how important it would be same with Instagram so I treat all three very separately how big is my TikTok?

1:44:29Theo Baker:get to 100k easily how are you going to celebrate?

1:44:34Ollie Fletcher:I'm not celebrating a TikTok number

1:44:36Theo Baker:I'm really joking I didn't celebrate my million

1:44:41Ollie Fletcher:boys you can completely see why you are as successful as you are but also why so many people like listening to you I really appreciate how generously you've been with your knowledge, I really appreciate the fact that you both train out of our gym at times and yeah it's been great getting to sit down and talk to you both so thank you so much Jim's been a game changer

1:44:59Theo Baker:for me I appreciate that man yeah

1:45:00Ollie Fletcher:I really do appreciate it I mean you spoke as well of how fond you are of Paddy the coach there so I'm glad that Marchand's left a little bit of an impact on both of you it's like my own personal Jim

1:45:09Theo Baker:I love it

1:45:10Ollie Fletcher:thank you boys thanks for having us mate cheers mate