Ep. 101 How to Regain Control of Your Future and Create a Life You Love with Frankie Bridge

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1:41Frankie Bridge has been working since the age of 12 and before her 30th birthday she'd sold 10 million records and had 19 UK top 10 singles both as part of S Club Juniors and then the Saturdays. Frankie has achieved things that so many would dream of but today she told me that She didn't have a sense of control over her future and career, a feeling that was magnified when she then had her kids and was catapulted into the working mum paradox. This is an episode about reinvention, not being scared to start over again and having the courage to create the future that you want for yourself. I cannot thank Frankie enough for being so open about a topic that always gets a little bit heated when it comes to mums and women and what we expect them to do.

2:27Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you. I'm very excited for this conversation. I ask everyone right at the beginning of the episode whether you feel like at the moment you are more working hard or hardly working. I feel like I'm always working hard. I find it hard to hardly work. Are you like programmed like that generally? I think so, yeah. I think starting my career at the age of 12 kind of sets you up for a working life, really. Like I don't really know anything else. And I think particularly because they were pop bands, you basically are like 365 days a year, 24 seven. You're at everyone's beck and call.

3:06And that's kind of what I'm used to. Yeah. So I'm kind of trying to unprogram that, but it's easier said than done. Yeah. And definitely hard to unlearn things that you have like ingrained so early on. I do think if you're like, if you were the type of kid that was like so busy all the time, like doing all the things, you never really step back from that like likelihood is whatever next stage you went to you probably did the same amount of things because you don't just suddenly start being like oh I'll just take all of this extra I was actually talking about this yesterday with some parents who were talking about their kids doing clubs and stuff like that you know like swimming or football whatever and I said oh you know some of them they just you can tell the difference between the ones that want to do it all the time and they practice and they do it at home and then you've got the ones that do as much as they need to do and I do think that comes down to passion and just people's way of thinking like I danced all the time when I was younger and I took it really seriously whereas my sister like went to dancing but then like quit when like her mates started hanging out and drinking in the park like you know I think you're either one or the other yeah no absolutely and there's definitely something to be said for finding something that you're very passionate about and very into let's go into that then because you have been working since the age of 12, as you say, you're at everyone's beck and call.

4:20You are there to be, to entertain people and you are there to make money for people as well, as well as yourself. I'd love to know kind of when you first got into that, where was your head at? Were you excited? Was it like your absolute dream? Were you daunted by it at all? I think at the age of 12, you just kind of take everything as it comes. Like I look back now and it's only now that I can think of like, God, I performed at Wembley Arena I did a shared tour with S-Cub 7 I moved to Barcelona for three months like those things now I look at especially having kids and I'm like they're huge yeah but at the time you're just like oh this is my life this is what I do day to day and I think you know we were at a very different time to what we're at now you know YouTube wasn't what it is now neither was socials pop idol kind of began while I was in S-Cup Juniors.

5:13That's a bit like X Factor. So that whole becoming a pop star just wasn't a thing. Like the only thing I thought that I might achieve was I thought I might either be in musical theatre or I always say like a cheese string advert. That was like my ultimate goal to be in a cheese string advert. Never happened. There is still time. There's still time. Cheese string hit me up. But I think like that just wasn't thinking of being in a pop group just wasn't really a thing. And then when I was in it, I don't think I realized the enormity of it. And we were really protected. Like there was so many rules around it.

5:49We could only work certain hours a day, be in front of a camera a certain amount of time. We had chaperones, we still did schoolwork, like on the tour bus or in between takes in our TV show. Like it was just this ongoing cycle. So like you say, you never really take a moment to step back from that while you're doing it. Yeah. And also like when you're that old, the world is just what it is. Like it feels like a lot of what kind of comes at you and a lot of what you're, I don't know, you're doing, say you've suddenly become like a pop star at this age. It's kind of like you don't know any different because that is your only experience and you probably don't quite have the self-awareness to be like, okay, but actually if I like look at the proportion of the country that's like doing this and like how many people know my name and I'm 12 and all of that, then you just don't, I can imagine looking back now it must almost like some of it feel like a fever dream being like oh I literally performed at Wembley it doesn't really it doesn't really feel like me they don't feel like proper memories really like I can look back and go oh I did x y and z but like you say like that was just my life I had a conversation with a friend the other day and I said well you know I had quite a normal childhood and she just burst into laughter and was like no you didn't she was like you did not have a normal childhood she was like if you think that's normal then there's something wrong with you and I was like maybe there is yeah but it was it was great like I wouldn't change it like it set me up for you know I'm still in the industry which is pretty impressive when I think about it still be around at 35 and I just think I don't know I just loved it for me I was just doing what I loved I get to sing and dance I wasn't in school every day I was hanging out with a group of friends and because there was no social media and because no one was allowed to write about us because we were underage I had no idea if someone didn't like my hair or they thought I looked a bit chubby or they didn't like our song like I was so oblivious yeah that's so interesting I didn't realize that there were like actual rules about not writing about you and all of that but I guess when I think about it obviously you are like I mean you're required anonymity if you're underage but obviously like you wouldn't be anonymous because you're part of this but actually I'd love to talk about then like how that developed as you I was about to say came of age as if you're like as if you're like a debutante as if you're coming into society your season um but I'd love to talk about like how that developed in kind of your journey from the beginning of your career to actually becoming an adult could you talk to me a little bit just like context setting for someone who might not know your career trajectory what happened at 12 and where did you go from there in terms of your next steps and actually becoming like an adult and realising like, oh, this is actually what I'm doing as a job.

8:31I think during S-Cup Juniors, obviously, so that began when I was 12 and that was just like a big open audition. I didn't even know it was for a pop group. It was like to perform one night with S-Cup 7 at Wembley Arena. And then it wasn't until we got through to the final round. This was the first audition I'd ever got through. I'd done loads before that. Right. And Simon Fuller, who like invented the Spice Girls and S-Cup 7, then came out and was like, oh, I want you to be a band. so like I celebrated on the way home by having a drive-thru McDonald's and then like went back to school the next day like you know it was just like okay cool we'll see what happens and I think by the time S-Cup Juniors finished I was a bit lost you know like it ended and I always knew it would end but there wasn't you know at that time I didn't have bills to pay I didn't have a mortgage I didn't have anything so earning the money wasn't really the important part and I was just a bit like I'd been told what to wear every day, how to have my hair, what I was doing that day when I was eating, that kind of thing.

9:27So for me, the biggest thing after S-Cub Juniors was what do I do now? You know, I was like 16, I'd say. Yeah, so it's not even really like, I don't know. It's not even really like being 18 and like leaving it and kind of being like, OK, natural end, moving on. Like maybe I go find a different career. yeah like you were really just ejected like probably back into like school type yeah so like luckily for me I'd like done my GCSEs but Simon Fuller at the time was like let's sign you as a solo artist and I was just like okay but I didn't know what music I liked I could walk into a shop and I wouldn't know what clothes I liked like I just didn't know who I was so he kind of said to me like okay go off and kind of find yourself type thing and all of my friends had like finished college so I just kind of went back into meeting my mates I went and got a job in All Saints I worked in a bar which for me seemed like such a novelty to have like a normal job and I really enjoyed it and I'm actually really pleased that I had that time absolutely it came with people being like oh what are you doing now because that's one thing I think with being in the public eye is that once you do a job it's like if you're not doing that then you failed whereas like people that work in offices and stuff they move around they change careers and that's acceptable whereas once you're in a band or once you're an actor or whatever once people can't see you doing something it's like oh that's it you're dead and gone yeah so I did have that feeling for a little while and um I remember all my friends started going off to uni and I was a bit like shit what am I gonna do now so I started applying I could have done like a degree in like music management just from like experience of being in the industry but luckily I got a phone call and the same record label that put together S-Cup Juniors were like we're putting a girl band together we want you to be in it and I was a bit like I don't know if I really want to be in another group like you know there's a lot of dynamics there I don't really know but then I was a bit like I'm not really doing anything else so okay and then that was kind of it I ended up in another pop group again.

11:35So let's talk about the forming of the Saturdays then because that is like well first of all that's obviously a big part of British culture like I think of like me knowing like the Saturdays when I was like at school and I think that you know at that point you've you've really just got a phone call and you've been told it's going like we'd like to have you involved you don't necessarily know if that's going to be successful as you say you don't even know yourself at this point what made you say yes to that opportunity and like then how quickly did it really pick up so it took a good year before anything really happened so I remember like because I lived in Essex I got my two mates to come with me to the the meeting it was in like Kensington somewhere at Universal so they wandered around while I went in for this meeting and they were like we're going to put this girl band together and at the start they'd really sold it to me as like they wanted it to be worldwide a bit cooler a bit edgier and I'd been through my emo phase by this point so I was like yeah cool not too pop a little bit more edgy and I was like okay like that sounds good I'm up for that and like when I met my friends afterwards and they were like so what happened and I was like I think I'm in a girl band and they were like what you think and I was like yeah I think so and then it took about a year from that point to us releasing like our first single so we did like a couple of things together as a group just to try out there's a couple of extra girls and then they finally chose like the last five and you you go through this whole phase of like recording and rehearsing together and stuff before anyone knows you so by the time your first single comes out you're a bit like like you'll know it's like writing a book and then all of a sudden you're like oh no now everyone else has to see it and we have to see if they like it or not so it's it's weird but by then the music industry had changed so much like I'd come from S Cup Juniors where it was still like you could buy CDs and tapes I think our first single was on a tape and like you had to buy you like we got to number two with 350 ,000 sales and we like missed the number one spot by 100 sales and then I remember in the Saturdays our first single went to number two and me and Rochelle Humes who she is now she was in S Cup Juniors with me and we were in the Saturdays together again and I remember them being like you went to number two and everyone was like, oh my God, oh my God.

13:51And me and Rochelle were like, how many singles did we sell? And it was like, I don't know, like 5 ,000, 7 ,000. And we were like, oh no, that's awful. Like, what are we going to do? That's so bad. And the record label were like, no, no, that's good now. Like it's changed. It's streaming. It's this, it's that. And we were just like, oh, like it took me a really long time to get used to this new way of the music industry working. So talk to me about like, you're essentially put together with these girls that you don't know and you're you're essentially made into and like this used to be a thing a lot like they would you know these music labels would set out to find the next group and they would hold these auditions and they'd put it together and they'd pull people out and put other people in and which I've always found like so interesting was it like a good dynamic from the beginning did you know that it was going to work in terms of like that setup of people because that's like a very close working relationship yeah I mean you never know you never know how successful you're going to be you don't know how well you're all going to get on and I think coming from a band already I kind of knew what that was like and I feel like the only way I can liken it is to being siblings like you can really annoy each other you can really upset each other but you'll always get on because really you have the same goal you all want the same outcome but equally there's ego involved you know everyone kind of I always say like in a proper band where they play instruments you know your role in that band you know I'm the drummer I sit at the back people might not necessarily know who I am I'm the bassist I'm the front man like whatever in a pop group you don't have that so there's always this time period where once you become like out to the public the public kind of decide that for you like whose role is what in the band and I think sometimes that can be where people start to not get on because they don't particularly like what they are and for me it was like I realized really quickly that people didn't really care if I had any talent or if I could sing or not it was like what hair has she got today what's she wearing today who's her boyfriend it was more like that kind of thing and it took me a while to get used to that but that's the price you pay really by being in the public eye yeah but what was that like really I guess like you first you've now come into a more grown-up version of what you were doing before and I can imagine it suddenly became a little bit like no holds barred like they have like the press the tabloids whatever have like a right to essentially just cover whatever they want to cover yeah and like how was that development in terms of like mentally adapting to technically as you say kind of for the price you pay for being in the public eye technically them being able to say literally whatever they want and decide as you say where you sit within the band and what your role is and what they care about in terms of what you're doing how did you find that move I think at the beginning it's exciting I think if anyone it might be daunting but I think for most people it's a sign that you're becoming successful the fact that people are writing about you talking about you like even social media wasn't a thing when we started the Saturdays we used to go on our fan chat rooms and like log in and chat to them on there and I remember that was like the first thing where you'd be able to have someone say directly to you like anything negative it was generally nice but it was the first time where you'd be like oh like that feels weird like I've not experienced that before but press wise I feel like you know it's that typical thing here they kind of build you up and then they start to kind of nitpick a bit and I think that got harder as I got older and further into the band because you know things change like I was 17 when I first started I was growing up in the public eye I did start to have responsibilities of having to pay bills and have a flat move out of my house and so suddenly what you're doing means more than just having fun like I was in S-Cub Juniors and I think I'm naturally one of those people that like I want people to like me and it's really hard when people don't know you to have people say horrible things about you because you're like 100%.

18:04God, like, I don't have strong enough feelings about someone that I don't know to feel like I don't like them. Yeah. And I can imagine as well, like a big part of that is like, it's hard to have people say things about you when they don't know you. But also when you don't quite know yourself. Like, as you say, you are really coming into yourself and like understanding like who you are, what you like and like what your values are. And actually, I can imagine that's quite difficult when having people being like, but she is like this. She is like this. And you're like, well, I don't actually fucking know what I am.

18:32but but thank you for your input that's super helpful but I can imagine that's quite like that sense of identity and knowing who you are while other people like worldwide who haven't even met you are telling you who you are I can imagine that's quite tough yeah and I think being a group of girls obviously a lot of the onus is on what we look like and I think that becomes in a in a girl band situation I think you've if you look back at girl bands now you see it when you're around a group of girls from day to day someone else loses weight and then you think oh maybe I should lose a bit of weight or she looks good like this maybe I should do this and people comment on those things I felt like it's got better nowadays but when we did it it was like oh you got pictured in your bikini in a burger or they'd comment on oh how flat-chested you are or this that the other and it's just mad because they might comment on things that you've never even thought of yourself and then you're like oh okay maybe that isn't great yeah i don't know you know yeah no absolutely and i think that you're it's more i think it's more widespread or two more people now but i think you're right in that it's actually like if we saw a tabloid now with someone on the front of it being like those big words being like belly fat yeah like sometimes you're like oh god it's actually like someone on the beach and you're like oh it's so confronting now Yeah, there are some terrible old tabloid black covers.

19:54I was watching that thing the other day of Chris Evans weighing Victoria Beckham. I know it did like the rounds on TGI Fridays. Is that what it was called? I can't remember. But like weighing her and being like after she'd had her baby and then being like, oh, Jerry weighed this much after her. How much do you weigh now? And like she was like, oh, this is really mean, but still did it. And like, I know times have changed, but when you look back at it, you're like, well, no wonder our like age group is so obsessed with like weight and stuff like that. Like, I'm so pleased it's changing. But like, unfortunately, we were still within that thing where anyone could write and say anything about you.

20:28A hundred percent. And like also that being part of your value, like, oh, but she's really like let herself go. Or like, I'm always like astounded by like some of those old stories. I mean, not all of it is better now. And the way everyone can now comment on someone's weight or someone's appearance or whatever, just completely unsolicited on social media. I think it's only really, I would say, in the last few years where I've really learned that I am more than what I look like. Right. Because I think being in pop groups, it does become a lot about that. We'll see it. The most talented one in the band isn't necessarily the most popular and whatever, and that's fine.

21:06but like it does I felt for a really long time that my self-worth was like wrapped up in what I look like or like whether people fancied me or whether they liked what I was wearing and things like that and as I got older I just kind of realized like you have to get out of that and you have to find the other things about yourself that are worth more than that. You've obviously been quite open about how that like the overall lifestyle but also you know how essentially you were public food for like commentary and just observation and like for you to say like actually it's only in the past few years that I've realized that I'm like more than like what I look like and like things like that like that is a huge amount of time since you started work and to really come into like a sense of like actually no this is my value beyond that I'd love to hear a little bit from you in terms of I guess when you started realizing how that was affecting you as a person like in this girl group but like really as a person individually I think for me like people always say to me because I've suffered with depression anxiety for years and I've always openly spoken about it but I do think I was always like that as a kid you know like I was always a real deep thinker I was always worrying about things that like other people probably wouldn't think about and stuff like that so I was always really aware of like the world around me so I think like being in the band wasn't necessarily what caused that it just kind of heightened it right because I think when you think certain ways about yourself already you know I I was really self-aware so then to then put yourself in that position where other people are telling you what they think about you it can be really difficult and I loved what I was doing like it doesn't take away from I would wouldn't change it and I would always go back and do it again because at the end of the day singing and performing is what I've always loved but I think for me just having that daily thing of one kind of having to show up and be what people wanted you to be I think was my biggest thing and I think my my moment where I realized okay this has possibly reached a point where it's not healthy anymore was we were on tour and I was about to go into a meet and greet where we meet the fans before we go on stage and I remember taking a big deep breath and thinking right okay Frank from the Saturdays and I kind of like walked in the room and became what people wanted me to be and I thought when did the two become different things and I think that's when I was like okay something's not okay and I think it's having to show up and be that every day even when you're tired no matter what's going on in your life I think when you're in a band there's four other people that you let down if you don't turn up that day if you're doing a show there's like an arena full of people that have paid to come and watch you perform and if one of you's not there you know you're someone's favorite that's watching and you know they come to see the band so I think there's a pressure of that whereas a solo artist obviously there's a pressure you're the only one there to carry it but if you don't want to show up to something that's your prerogative type of thing you can reach your limit yeah and I think like what I love now is I have seen a real shift in that like I feel like Lewis Capaldi was the first person that you know he pulled out of his shows because he was mentally unwell and everyone applauded him for that but for me even the fact that his label were able to allow allow him to do that was like a massive thing because I was hospitalized when I was 21 with depression and anxiety and we had a tour coming up and the biggest thing was we weren't we had no insurance if I didn't do it we'd have like lost all the money of the show and I'd let all the fans down and I'd let the rest of the band down and you know that's a big responsibility when you're already going through your own thing at such a young age anyway but touring was my favorite part of what we did so I was determined in to be better and well enough to be able to do that and that's what I did whether or not I was 100 % ready to be back I don't know but it it did help because I loved it but I love now that that shift has changed it's so interesting that you say that because like to me it's glaringly obvious that like if a label is putting on a show they must have insurance and the thing must not fall back on like as in like from a purely logistical perspective but like it shouldn't like as in there should be no circumstance where someone in hospital would then lose out the entire you know like everyone on all of their bookings because they can't pull out and like all of this so you don't just lose the revenue you lose all of the costs that you put into it but like the fact that that onus was on you it's so interesting when you look at the public eye because like where does that exchange stop.

25:57Yes, you're someone's favorite. Does that mean that if you're really mentally like not feeling there that you need to, I don't know, take a photo with them that day or have a long conversation with them that day or whatever it might be. But at the same time, like, yes, there's an exchange when it comes to like someone coming to a show to see you. But like, does that mean that every second of your day, your year, your like everything requires you to be that person just because you're someone's favorite and because they bought like they bought that record they got those songs that was the exchange like the exchange kind of kind of like it ended there like as much as you'd like to give more to that and I always think about how much you know people in the public eye are really especially in this type of thing when you say you know you're part of a group you'll be letting other people down but like I can imagine it's hard not to feel like a commodity and it's hard not to feel like a bit of like a cash cow that's kind of being like paraded around but that's kind of what you are in a group really you're there to make money for the label and for everybody else like you know we had gone on to like before you would make more money doing tours because you would get the money from the merch and things like that and you know you didn't necessarily make money from singles but you'd make the money from the albums and that had all changed by the time I got into the Saturdays they bought in the 360 deals the label took the money from every every part that they could and you know then you think you've got five of you to spit it by you've got your agent you've got your record label so before it gets to you it's it's kind of been really really spread thinly you know so you are kind of a bit of a cash cow no matter how big you are and especially if you're not writing you know we weren't writing the music ourselves we weren't making money that way so you are very much made to feel interchangeable if you don't do it someone else can step in and do your job for you and it's not until afterwards that now I'm like well no they can not yeah you know people knew us by then like some bands have managed to like sugar babes they've managed to do that yeah I don't know how but I'm like you know in general it it's really difficult to do that and it's not until afterwards that you look back and you're like oh yeah yeah and obviously having struggled deeply with anxiety and depression like as a I can't imagine how tough that would have been whilst also being like really in the public eye and not necessarily like before the time that you would have that two-way street when it comes to like being able to get things out in your own words really and being able to have like that conversation with people at that time how did you kind of feel coming out of that and going back into what you were doing because I can imagine that being you know we've we've de-stigmatized it a lot but I can imagine at that time that would have been really really hard to like come out and still do this kind of performance that you were doing every day like even just of yourself yeah I mean it was a really big deal at the time no one really spoke about mental health and for me I think it was like literally Stephen Fry at the time was the only person that had spoken about his mental health and I remember being in hospital and everyone just the thing that everyone was writing about me was that I had an eating disorder or that I must have some sort of addiction right and I was like there there for me there was no shame in that that was it wasn't that I was like no how dare you that's not what I've got but I was like there are more issues than what than those two things I think being in the public eye people just think they're the only two things you can have so I chose to come out I did a cover with Glamour magazine and I did an interview about my mental health because I felt like people needed to know that even someone in my position who seemingly seemingly had it all can have depression anxiety right so it was really important for me to share that and also for our fans at the time as cheesy as it sounds to be able to be like I'm really sorry I wasn't around this is what was going on and maybe you might have some of those feelings too and this might help you to understand it uh-huh and I'm really glad that I did because I still get people come up to me now and say my sister gave me that magazine or I bought that magazine and it made me realize that that's what I'd been suffering with or I felt like I wasn't alone and no one was really talking about it at the time so it was really different it was really difficult and obviously I wasn't healed at the time but and I never claimed to have been healed but it made it kind of worth it because I was like oh okay obviously I had the odd person that was like what have you got to be sad about you've got everything yeah but that's why you talk about it yeah and there's going to be some people that don't want to learn and don't want to know and that's fine uh-huh and I did that's like an incredibly brave thing to do because I can imagine that like there's a real pressure when you're in the public eye and like when you're in a girl band like it is beneficial to look like you have it all Like it is entirely better.

30:57Like you, the thing that sells is this idea that you guys like have taken over the world and like you're so popular and like all of this, like as in that was always, girl bands weren't about relatability. They were never about relatability. They were about like aspiration and like all of this. And I can imagine that actually being able to step away from that and say like, also I want to share this and like, this is really important. like even obviously then going on to write your book that being such like a frank account of your experiences with like your mental health overall I'd love to know why at that point kind of like what the motivation was from you'd been so brave to like come out and do this cover especially at a point where I can imagine it was still pretty delicate and like you don't know how people are going to receive it and like it's not just a press opportunity like it's literally like your mental health like talking about something when it's still delicate it's hard to your friends let alone to like the entire nation when it's also not necessarily accepted as like the norm but I'd love to know the motivation behind going like even deeper in that in your book and like really getting that all down on paper and out to the world I think because when I did the cover like you say it was so fresh and I was still quite delicate and and although I was given the opportunity to do that it was kind of like at the time with the Saturdays it was kind of like okay you've told everyone now now let's not talk about it anymore sure you know it was like we I even then it was like I didn't talk about medication that wasn't a thing we spoke about and it was kind of like right now I need to go people don't want to see sad like and I get that like in a band you go to be entertained that was my job so you're happy and you're jolly and whatever so I think I then just went straight back into what I was doing and fine so it wasn't until afterwards and I the Saturdays had finished and obviously I became a parent and I had a new agent and more and more people were talking about mental health like so I'd started working with Mind the charity and the first event I went to was like this tiny thing there was hardly anyone there was it's like me and Stephen Fry and a few other people I love that it's me and Stephen Fry can be more different yeah it's probably like what who's she and like it and it's grown and grown and grown and it's been so nice to see how people's attitudes towards mental health has changed publicly and you know just in general with friends and family and stuff so for me with with the book it was actually my agent at the time that encouraged me to write it because she was like I feel like you've still got so much more to say there was so much you didn't say the world has come such a long way since then like I feel like it's something you can still take ownership of on yourself I've never written a book before but I loved writing when I was at school like English was my favorite subject I actually wanted to be an English teacher well I can't spell for shit but really wanted to be an English teacher so I was like okay fine like I was like yeah you know what I really want to do that and I met loads of different publishers who just didn't get it like I had this real thing I I was like, I don't want to be on the front cover.

34:04I didn't want it to be like a memoir. That just wasn't what I wanted it to be. And I was like, and if I'm going to do it, I do not want a ghostwriter because it's something so personal. Someone else can't say it the same way that I will say it. So they were like my two stipulations with it. And I met this amazing girl, Romilly, who works with lots of women authors. And she just got it. She got why I didn't want to be on the cover. She got why I needed to write it myself. and if I was going to do it I wanted to do it properly so I got all of my doctor's notes from when I started therapy to like the point when I was doing the book which is mad because you just forget so much stuff and I got my two my psychiatrist and my therapist to write in it as well because I wanted people to read it I never claimed for it to be a self-help book because they don't really help me so I was like I'm not gonna really do one but I wanted people to be it and learn what I'd been taught.

34:58Because for me, learning that it was a medical condition made me feel like I wasn't just going crazy and that there was reasons for it and there were actual chemical reactions going through my brain and things. And just the way they explained things to me made it make sense. So I wrote what I wrote and then they would write why it was happening and what was happening at the time. And for me, that just felt like the best way to do it. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's this real like de-stigmatization of something that, as you say, like we all have our own stigma about it. Like, as you said, like before doctors were explaining it to you, you were thinking like, oh my God.

35:34Okay. Yeah. I remember when they first were like, you need to go to therapy. And I was like, I'm not American. Like, that was like my first thing. I love how you don't think like, no, I've not been like, there's not been like some big trauma. You're like, I'm not American. Yeah, I was like, I'm not American. I don't need to go and talk about my feelings. I was like, no. Yeah. And then when I went for my first one, I was like, okay, fine. I get it. But yeah, it took me ages to even go into that. Yeah. And like understanding, like, as you say, like the reasoning for like why someone would go on medication, like if it is a chemical imbalance or like whatever it might be, like there are ways to improve that.

36:08And there are ways to and like, why shouldn't we celebrate that? Like we celebrate that in every other form of medicine and every other form of like treatment, like when it comes to like the fact that we understand we're different and we understand that like like you know different people will have different balances of hormones or whatever it might be and I feel like that is so that is like really very brave when you think about how you'd you know you could have walked away from the Saturdays and like you'd already kind of been public about it at that point and I can understand like if there would be a desire for like reinvention and just being like do you know what I'm just going to move on from this and I'm going to move on from that and like whatever it might be but to go deeper into that and like really share why you and how you understood that with with everyone I do feel like is incredibly brave and really like allowed yourself it seems like from an outside point of view anyway to be valued for something that wasn't just like I'm in a girl band and I have lots of things that everyone wants and this is what I look like and all of that.

37:15But actually also just being like, you know, and here are my thoughts on this. And here are, and this is how I understood my own mental health and my own head. And I can, you know, I think that I have no doubt like how many people that would have actually helped.

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38:04I heard you say something really interesting about your kind of career path as a whole at that point and or even just like in the Saturdays and like feeling that your career path had really been decided for you obviously you were in a very particular situation but I find a lot of people message and comment a lot about like you know there'll be 26 and they'll be like no but I've done a medical degree or but I've studied in law or like but I started this grad scheme three years ago or whatever it might be and this genuine feeling that we've kind of accidentally decided our lives at like in our mid-20s and therefore we must continue down that path I'd love to hear from you when you realized this idea that like you felt like your career path had been decided for you and what you decided to do about it at that time well I think we we learned that from school right like you have to choose your GCSEs and then your A-levels and then it's like are you going to go to uni what do you want to do at uni and you're still so young to like go oh this is what I'm going to do like I still talk to you know I've got friends with older kids and I'm like mate it doesn't really matter like what you choose I don't know if it's the right thing to say but I'm like that might not then be what you go on to do like try and think of it as a way of like showing how hard you can work or you know rather than thinking of what it is and obviously I didn't take that path I didn't do my A-levels I didn't go to uni or whatever so for me I did feel like because I'd been in two pop groups already and you know luckily for me they were both successful like hardly anyone can say even one of theirs was successful so I knew I was lucky but I think I kind of learned to let go of this idea that I was lucky and I'd just fallen into what I'd fallen into like I worked bloody hard and like I think it was only as I got older that I was like you're allowed to own that like you worked for that like you deserve to be where you got to because you worked really hard so it wasn't until really after the Saturdays that I was like right what am I gonna to do now you know I have got a child for a husband you know we have bills to pay like everyone else and it did matter what I earned at the time whereas in S-Cup Juniors I was just like there for the lulls yeah so I was like okay what do I do now and it's really hard to think outside of the box like there was a period of time where because my husband played football you know financially at that time I could have chosen to be a stay at home mum.

40:48And there was a time where I was like, yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to do that. And then I had Parker, my first, and I was still in the Saturdays and it was coming to the end. And I was just like, this is not for me. Like, this isn't fulfillment for me. It doesn't give me purpose. And I really thought it would. And I think that comes with like a tremendous amount of guilt to feel like your child is not enough for you to stay at home for and I think there is still a bit of stigma around that I think it's getting better but I think it was in that moment that I was like no I still have so much more to do like I had him when I was 24 like most people don't even start their careers by then or have never met the person they're going to be with or anything like that so I think it was just kind of for me it was a process of finding myself a bit again and re-evaluating because I'd had the same agent had been a part of my record label while I was in S Cup Juniors so I'd worked with him for a really long time and I loved him but I felt like I needed a new set of eyes someone who didn't see me as that 12 year old that they knew all those years ago and I think that was a big turning point for me to meet with my agent now Meryl she's amazing like she she's a real go-getter she'll go and get things she won't sit around and wait for the phone to call and I needed someone like that and it was kind of at that point that I realized like you don't have to be one thing I don't feel like many people are anymore like I can't have done singing I've done it ticked it I've done it twice why can't I try to have it tv I've written a book you know like you can try things out and see just because it's in the public eye it doesn't mean that you have to do one thing and stick with it forever yeah no absolutely and I think that can be applied in like whether you're in the public eye or not because I think people can use that like both ways they say okay well you're in the public eye so you can choose your path or they say okay but you're in the public eye so you do have to like stay there or whatever it might be but one of the things that I think you said there that I'm so glad you said is the fact that you realized that your purpose wasn't just staying at home and I think that that like it is astounding to me that that is still a brave thing to say but I do think it is yeah because I think that especially with social media this idea that you were kind of saying okay well I'm gonna have a baby so and I'm financially stable and that's a you know great place to be so I'm gonna this is gonna be a thing and it's gonna be my purpose and all of that and like it is still wholly expected that like as a mother the second you have that child you have therefore fulfilled your purpose and to say otherwise and to say that you want more or want different is like a departure from your duty as a woman I think it's astounding that that is still the case but like I see everywhere from like comments and like all of this that it truly is still even an argument between mothers like the working mum and the stay-at-home mum which again it's just something I don't understand like I have groups of friends at school some work some don't I there is no judgment there between any of us and actually for me I like like my sister's stay at home mom and I'm like for me I'm like that is so much harder than what I do like that is so tiring you know you don't have much adult time or conversation or whatever and it's and it's really bloody hard and but I also envy her for that being what she is able to do and what fulfills her and is enough for her yeah so I don't look at those people and look down on them I'm also I'm not jealous of them but I envy them because I'm like how lovely for that to be your thing but for me it's just not like I have a career that I love yeah and I really enjoy what I do yeah and I think I always think about that a lot because I completely agree and that I I mean I don't have kids but I do I've thought a lot about like okay well am I working so like this hard so that I can when I have kids I can just not work or like whatever it might be and then I often think I'm like actually that would be too hard like I literally think in my head I'm like that would be too hard for me because like I actively don't think that that is going to be the thing I'm going to be best at like I want to be a fantastic mom but I genuinely think I would be a terrible mother if I was staying at home all the time because I think I would turn into a monster but you need an outlet you do yeah and like I I think that me I think that that's always so interesting because in society we see that as the easier role and we see that as you know a traditional man comes home and they are the one who's been out and they've been working and they've been earning from their family and like that's brilliant but like I think that man would also sometimes agree that they prefer to do that and come home to the dinner on the table rather than people want at home doing that which I feel like is such an interesting dichotomy because actually every time I've like thought about it I've thought yeah no it's not that it's not hard enough it's that it genuinely I think it is hard in the wrong direction for me like I think that it would send my like my mind is too constantly busy and like throwing around narratives consistently and I think I would literally like my mind would like drown me out if I wasn't mind-numbing playing with the same train or the same car for half an hour your kid can literally do the same thing yeah for a good few hours so i really think like why is it that we look down on it either way because you really like i have no doubt that people will listen to this and someone will be like well how fucking dare you um but also at the same time you know if you're if you did stay at home and if you are a stay-at-home mom then there is this argument that you know well we fought so hard for you to be able to work and like all of this and you really really really cannot win No, you can't.

46:45And I married a footballer as well. So it would have been like, oh, look, she married a footballer so that she never had to work again. She can just have kids and stay at home and live with her man. Yeah. And it's like he retired 10 years ago. If that was the case, I'd have married a younger one. Do you know what I mean? I'm like, no, I still need to work mentally and financially. And I'm like, you know, really weird switch. Like he stays at home. And I think sometimes people like for me, it's the conversation around it that annoys me. It's like I go into work and it's like, who's got the kids today?

47:16Sure. You know, just things like that is something so small. Or like Wayne does the school drop off and they're like, oh, it's all Wayne at the school. It's so cute. And I'm like, no one says that to me when I go and drop them off. I'm like, I have to go drop them off and get into London and then get back. And, you know, like it is. And like, no one is easier than the other. But it just it just the stuff around it that's frustrating. It's like, oh, he's so amazing. that he's doing this and I'm like yeah but also I have the mental load as well as you know like I'm the one on the school group chats or I know when they've got a school trip or they've got a party and I've got to get a present and I've got to do this and then but then I thought this event tonight or I thought come and do the podcast or my kid's crying this morning because he doesn't want me to go to work and he wants me to drop him to school but so it's it's a constant juggle I don't think you ever figure it out and I have friends that are just starting that now and one of them said to me the other day she went I'm so sorry that I never realized how hard it is she was like because she's finding it excruciating at the minute of like one having to leave her kid but two having to work financially she has to work and I think it's so annoying like what I could sit here and say to you I mean I've not had one but like oh I've got a nanny and I work all the time and everyone would be like well how selfish she's basically paying someone else to have her kids while she goes and works.

48:39Or I could, what, stay at home and then they'd all be happy that I stayed at home, but then I've lived off my man. Yeah, like, do you know what I mean? It's like you literally cannot win. And I'm like happy nowadays that people in the public eye or hardworking women are saying, yeah, I have a nanny. Like for years it used to annoy me. I used to everyone to be like, how does she do it? And it's like, because she's got an army at home. Like I've got Wayne's mum and dad at home. They've always lived with us. They help us with the kids. Amazing. I couldn't do what I do without that. Right. And like there is this position of like, yes, that is a hugely privileged position to be in.

49:13And yes, I am super happy about that. But at the same time, like no one says what a privileged position it is for a man to have a woman that will stay at home. Like no one's saying like, oh, God, how lucky you are. Like every time they walk into a boardroom and they're like, oh, you have a wife with a kid. How amazing. Well done. 10 out of 10. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that like it is so like ultimately throughout this all, the answer is that there is a different solution for everyone. And there will be people who are lucky enough to choose which their solution is. And there will be like and actually that is something that we should absolutely talk about.

49:50But also the aim is choice. Like the aim is that someone can decide they need work for their mental health and or that they want to be with their kids the majority of the time for their mental health. But also for a lot of people, there isn't that choice. Exactly. I've got friends. It's too much money to pay for childcare, cost them too much money to pay for their train ticket into work. But then they still need the money to work and they just about break even. It's like there is there is just no right or wrong answer. And I hate that everyone's still trying to find it. Yeah. And how have you found being open about the fact that, like, in your words, you need work for your like mental health and like that, you know, that your kids as great as they are.

50:33are not your only purpose. How have you found talking about that in the public eye? I think it comes with mixed responses. Yeah, mixed reviews. But I'm kind of like, it used to hurt me. Like I remember when I did Strictly, it was 2014, forever ago. And I just finished our last Saturday's tour and I went straight on to Strictly. And that's like three months. It's mentally busy. I got married that year. My first son turned one that year. so I had a lot going on but for me it was like a really big deal because it was the first thing I'd done on my own and it was like you know like a real boost of confidence to be like you can't you don't need like four other people to like back you up all the time and I remember I did an interview and I'd said like oh I missed Parker's first steps and I'd seen him do like a couple whatever but like the first proper ones and oh my god the comments I got like you should never look at the comments under the bar of shame ever and I've learned that now but the bar of shame but i was like that really killed me you know what i mean i know exactly what you mean and i just like people just being like what an awful mother like why would you like choose to go and dance on a show instead of seeing your child's first steps and blah blah blah and i'm like one who knows when those first steps are gonna bloody come so how could what so like i can't even yeah i can't even pop out for a cup of tea or something because i might miss that first step but also too like when were we not allowed to do something we loved or when couldn't we work anymore or like why did I have like Wayne saw them like no one would I imagine if Wayne had missed them no one would have said a word no because he was at work so I'm like you know that was kind of like the first time when I realized okay people have like an issue with this and I even heard a podcast the other day and like the guy said you know I just thought you know you can't have kids and then just give them to a nanny and I just thought like still very much ingrained into the world.

52:37You can't have kids and just give them to your wife. Yeah like yeah you know yeah yeah I'm going back out here you go so I think there's still a lot there and I don't know if we'll ever get to the bottom of that or whether that will become even like I came I grew up both my parents worked the like the child care was really even they both cooked dinners they both took us to dance class they're both but then equally i had to be dropped off at a friend's house to be dropped to school someone else would pick me up from school because they couldn't get back whereas like for me and wayne we are lucky in that my son has a match at half two in the afternoon i can try and work around the fact that i can get back and go and watch it i'm usually like one of three parents that have managed to accept one else that was understandable well like oh i always consider the fact that the school drop-off is in the middle of the fucking day like we had Laura Jackson on this podcast who was literally like it's so true it is in the middle and I've like thought about it a lot because we also have we have like a lot of mums in head of positions at Tala and like I remember our CEO is as well and she's always like we've always talked about like how do we build a workplace where we're like happy with that whilst it also being a workplace and like all of these different things and you really do think about it and you're like oh the school drop off is like as in the pickup is literally at fucking 3pm Well, drop off is the time that you're meant to be in at work.

53:53Sure. And pick up is the time when you're meant to still be at work. So make that make sense. Yeah, right. Exactly. So it is really hard. And then they start doing clubs or they have a show on that day or like my kids school, they like someone to come in and read for them or whatever. And, you know, like there's a lot of expectations now that I don't think were there. I'm not saying life is harder than it used to be or anything like that. But, you know, like now we have to play with our kids 24-7. Otherwise, they'll be bored. Like they're not allowed to be bored anymore. Or, you know, like I was out in the garden playing with worms.

54:25Literally. Yeah. Like I bloody loved it. I used to collect ladybirds in Tupperware. I used to collect snails. They were never there in the morning. Weird. I was always making mud pies for the evil queen that was making me make her mud pies. Bring that mud pies. But like my kids don't have that now. And I miss one of their matches. And he cried about it. And I was like the worst parent in the world. and the teacher from the school was like, look, your mum and dad are like, one of them is pretty much always there. Like the other kids don't have that. But that's what he is used to. And I have to remind myself of that.

54:59But also he's cried about it for five minutes. I've still carried that with me. That was probably about two years ago. He won't even remember. Do you know what I mean? So we torture ourselves either way. Like no one else from the outside needs to sell you anything because you feel it already. I know. Well, that is one of my biggest fears as I think about like, when do I want to like, because I definitely do want to have kids. but like i really struggle with the idea of like i don't know i think the thing that i'm most terrified about is the mental torture because like it's not just the you know the mental torture no sorry i mean it totally is that um but like it's not just the idea of like okay you carry a baby for nine months your hormones good like it's hormonal like there's a lot of shit going on you then have to recover from that whilst bringing up a newborn that probably doesn't sleep like all of this like thinking about being able to work to any like full extent during that time is like absolutely wild but then also you know from that point onwards like I always say I'd rather just give birth to a five-year-old would you yeah maybe not but like as in like at the point that you are going to constantly constantly feel like you are either not giving enough to your career or you are not giving enough to your children.

56:18And that is it. Like, you know, when Lily Allen said, oh, my children cost me my music career or something and everyone was in uproar. And I was like, you know what? Like, I mean, she says things in her own way anyway and everyone takes everything so literally. But I was like, how bloody refreshing for someone to say a music career is 360 days of the year. Like you cannot, like there are people that have kids and whatever, but something has to give. And I think I loved that she said that because I was like she's just saying it how it is. But also why are we surprised at that when we build like you know what we're expecting for people with a music career like why is that a surprise like as in like that's you know that's I don't know you can you say that's a surprise but then you're also shocked if she's not with her kids so it's like that those two things don't make sense you're saying that she constantly needs to be there and also being surprised that it's cost her her career like I don't understand this like duality.

57:10And they do get to an age where they need to be in school and then they start doing stuff like before that you're pretty fluid you can take it where you want or whatever I mean you can homeschool them but whatever like you know like there's so many decisions to make and just talking to my friends who have got younger kids they're like tell me it gets easier and I'm like well it does in that like you know I can say to my son now right go clean your teeth have a shower get yourself ready for bed or oh it sounds really simple but mate it takes a major to do all that you know there's loads of things he's really independent with now and like my friends come around and they're like god like it's like you don't have kids like they're just off doing stuff but there is new stuff they can tell you when they don't like something or when they don't want you to go to work or whatever and there's always going to be that turmoil with having kids and having a career and i think it's just be really nice to just make that normal and just for everyone to go oh yeah no that is and also for them to there to be an open considered judgment free conversation around it understanding that different things are going to be the case for different people different people's kids are going to have different needs like different people's careers are going to have different needs but I'd love to know like on top of all of that how obviously you said at the beginning that you struggled with this kind of sense of self or like really understanding who you are with having like a full career change and also like having kids at the same time like starting the journey of motherhood I'd love to know how like your sense of self developed because a lot of people say that they kind of start to lose their sense of self when they become a mother because so much of their life is you know around their kids I'd love to know your relationship I guess with your sense of self in terms of how it developed from the point that you became a mum I think for me like I kind of really lost my sense of self from the moment I was pregnant I think like I said like for me I put a lot of onus on what I look like in the band and to suddenly like I gained a lot of water weight really quickly with my first son and I gained a lot of weight and I looked different.

59:07And I think it was the first time I'd looked different in the public eye. And for me, as someone who had kind of struggled with restrictive eating and things like that, suddenly feel like you've lost complete control of your body is really difficult. So very quickly, I was like, oh, I don't know who this new person is and how to be confident and get up on stage with four other girls who still look the same. And, you know, back then it was still that like you've got to snap back after you've had a baby and whatever. And so there was all that that came into play. And I think you do lose yourself a bit like breastfeeding.

59:39There's the pressure there. What way you're going to have your baby? This, that, the other decisions you make with you go to work. Like there's so much. And I think once I'd kind of done all that and he started getting older, like then it just takes time. It's time. And I think we all really try to be who we were before. and I think it's that that you have to drop and it wasn't until one of my really good friends came round and she was saying and doing all the right things and I was like you are not okay like there's something going on here and I sat and had a conversation with her and it was the first time I realized I think seeing another person do it to their self because it's so much easier isn't it when you're doing it you just get on with it and it's so easy to give other people advice and I just said to her I was like stop trying to be who you were before because you're not her anymore you can be a version of that but by doing you're torturing yourself like you're a mother now your body's gone through so much your life is different and it's finding a new version of yourself within that and it takes some people it's really quickly and for me it took quite a few years therapy things like that trying out new things and I don't know I think I just got more confident as time went on and actually for me having a kid it massively helped with my anxiety because I realized I can't control everything in life I can't keep everyone safe all the time I can't keep everyone happy so I think that was a big part of me kind of finding a new version of myself like not everyone's gonna like me yeah I can't stop my kid from crying every day I can't stop him from falling down and that kind of spread out into the rest of my life and I think it helped me to make braver decisions with work yeah like even doing loose women I'd been asked to do that a year before and I was like I've got nothing to say I've got no opinions I've got no big interesting points to make and it wasn't until like after I'd had a kid and after I'd written my book that I was like oh actually you can have an opinion everyone's not going to agree with it I don't think I'm I like to think I'm quite measured and I think of things on both sides but I don't know like I find I get myself in trouble with like the most ridiculous things on loose women it's normally food related I piss people off or whatever like it's the conversations that I think are you know like really sensitive that are fine so I think also loose women was a real big thing for me of being like oh actually it's quite a safe space of other women around me right and like your entire value doesn't isn't based on people agreeing with everything you say it was the first time I'd been asked to have an opinion yeah I think that's really really really interesting because you've been in the public eye for so long yeah and to like not be asked to have an opinion like any of that time is like mildly problematic you love this single tell everyone to buy this single this is the best thing ever yeah how are you gonna cut your hair next who's your boyfriend and actually for the first time someone was asking me something yeah you know important and I was like oh actually I do know about that yeah it's fine if everyone doesn't like it yeah and I also think that like well I think that's one of the big things we learn as we grow up but also a lot of people I've had people on the podcast before say like oh from the second you have a baby like you just no longer fuck around with like what you think because you know you're like you start to obviously once you've come out of this like idea of like struggling with your sense of self and knowing who you are and all of that but like you're a lot of your priorities obviously kind of shift slightly and you're just kind of like this I remember one but I can't remember who said it It was like, oh, you just stop giving a fuck because you're like, I know what is like important and I know what I think and I know I'm a good person.

1:03:18And I think we really struggle with that on social media. Like things are so black and white and it's like very much like you either said it wrong or you said it right. There's no idea of nuance in there, no complexities. Like you either have the right opinion or you don't. And I do feel like that's really bold. And I think that also what you said there about the idea that actually having kids forced you to lose control because you can't have control over that situation. And that was then reflected in your wider career in terms of like being able to just be like, cool, well, let's just see if this works.

1:03:52And I feel like that's like a very valuable lesson because like I, for one, love control. I really get a sense of that, to be honest. It's actually one of my favorite things. Well, don't have a kid then because you'll be screwed. I'm really good with control. But actually, like, I do really try and, like, microdose a lack of control because I do feel like it's not necessarily the best thing to, like, develop and, like, complete ownership of, especially when, like, you do have control of that with your own businesses and, like, all of that. But I love what you said. And that's because like you've had your own businesses, whereas like from such a young age, I was kind of running someone else's like I was just kind of told.

1:04:33So I never had control. Yeah. And I think that's a really big part of like my mental health issues and things like that and trying to control food and things, you know, because you don't have control over your day to day of what you're doing. And actually now it's really nice. Nice now. I'm like, oh, no, I do actually like I do have a voice. I do have control. I can say yes to that and I can say no to that. like whereas before when you're self-employed you're like I have to say yes because that that opportunity might not come again I can't miss this I can't miss that and obviously there is still an element of that but now I'm like okay so is this going to bring me joy or is this going to help me financially because if I'm not going to be with my kids it has to have one of those or both and if it hasn't then it's not worth my time well I think that is the perfect place to end because I think that is a very good, like, I don't know.

1:05:24It's just a good thermostat. Like, should I do this? Does it bring me joy? Does it bring me money? If not, oh, my God. Thank you. No, but thank you so much. It's been such, like, I love the way you think about things that I've spent a lot of time thinking about them and I feel like you've lived such an interesting career and have been bold enough to, like, break out of what the expectations are for you, which I can't imagine has been easy at times but I love your perspective as a result thank you