Ep.105 What It Takes To Be The Best In Your Industry with Jen Atkin

0:28Someone play the dream guest claxon. like Chrissy Teigen and the Kardashians to building way a beloved hair care brand with a huge focus on incredible product. Jen's journey is a masterclass in how to get to the top of an industry and create true long lasting success. Whether you're a beauty enthusiast, aspiring entrepreneur, or you just love a good success story and want to know the attitude it takes to get to the heights that Jen has got to, this episode is for you. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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1:48No matter what you sell or what you aspire to be, you can do it all yourself on Wix. Hi, friends. Grace from the Working Hard podcast here. When you're stretching every dollar, a little goes a long way, and Walmart Business is here to help. They make it easy to order what you need from tech and cleaning supplies to everyday essentials, all at low prices and with helpful tools like spend tracking and tax-exempt purchasing for eligible organizations. Because when your operations are smooth, your impact can be bigger. Visit business.warmart.com to get started.

2:23Thank you so much for joining me. So happy to be here. Honestly, so excited to have you over in the UK. As I said, I am freshly washed with my whey, which my fiance actually was the one who originally bought it. And now it's the first shampoo and conditioner we've ever been happy to share. It's the detox shampoo. I knew it. Yeah. I love to hear that. We had an event last night celebrating our St. Bart's launch. And I had so many girls come up to me and say their fiance or their boyfriend is the one that like it's obsessed. That's really big. Yeah. No, it's so big. Guys don't like it means a lot because I feel like guys aren't as particular, but like for them to really like find it and love it and not go to a grocery store.

3:02Yeah. And what they are particular on is actually not looking like they like building a brand for women and it being very specifically like this is the kind of, you know, this is the look and this is what we're going for in all of this. And then also being something that will appeal and you'll happily share with your fiance is that it's no mean feat. Yeah, that's pretty impressive. No, I'm thrilled. Trust me. And also the guys here in the UK are very well put together. Do you think? Yes. I think you may have been in very specific parts of the UK. They take a minute longer than the guys in the US.

3:31I'm telling you. Do you think that? Because I actually think the opposite. No, our party last night, I was like, everybody here is so attractive. Like, I felt like I was on Love Island. It was so fun. Love that. Love that for you. So I ask every guest at the beginning of the episode, do you feel like at the moment you're more working hard or hardly working? At the moment, I feel like I'm hardly working because I'm just here enjoying like a little bit of downtime with my husband and some friends. But I'm here to work with the weight team. but I don't have to wake up and do mommy duty and take care of my dogs and like be at the vet every two days.

4:05Like this is a breeze. And have you found that having kids has added on a lot as well to like, obviously. Oh, my God. With the businesses. Yeah. Adding on top of that because a business is very much a kind of you don't really get to decide when it calls and decides that it needs to take all of your time, which is kind of equivalent to a child, but even more so. Yeah. No, literally, it's so true. Like the dog helps prepare you for kids. Starting a brand helped prepare me for kids as well. It feels like a part of me and it feels like it's like an extension of me. And, you know, I it's weird. I never really like thought I would be in this position if three dogs, two kids, two brands.

4:44And I'm also advising on a friend's brand she's going to launch. So it's a lot going on right now. It's a lot of spinning plates, but I have really great teams and really great support. And I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job of handling it all. Like I'm just doing my best every day. I mean, outwardly, it looks like you're doing it all great. So yeah, I think I just like I'm really good at compartmentalizing and I'm not super emotional. Like there's times where I break down for sure. But I don't know. It's weird. I think I am so used to hustling because I've done it for so long that it just kind of I'm not.

5:16It's weird. I'm not like miserable from all the tasks and responsibility. I feel really like full and really like happy. But it is a lot. Sure. No, absolutely. And I know that your early life looks quite different to how your life does now. Could you give us a little bit of a taster of what that kind of early life was like, but also what like little Jen's dreams were? My God, early life. Well, it's funny. I was sitting here at this trip and we're staying in Mayfair and it's quite a bougie hotel. And I was thinking about my first trips when I was on Madonna's tour and we were staying out in my God, why can I not remember?

5:51starts with an S, but it's out by the airport. It's a very small town, but it was not what I'm experiencing right now. And it's so like, it's humbling for me to remember all that. But my early years, I was always obsessed with makeover scenes in movies. I was obsessed with the idea of transformation. I grew up in a very religious family. I grew up Mormon and I grew up in Utah and in Hawaii. And so I, I don't know, I was kind of like a product of like pop culture. I was always watching music videos and movies. And I loved just the idea of being a hairdresser or even a makeup artist. And so my poor little sister, she was my first client.

6:28Barbie was another. I just always loved like playing with hair. And I never knew that it could be a career, to be honest. Like I didn't really ever see women in movies as hairstylists. And even in, you know, brands that were very popular at the time, like Vidal Sassoon or Paul Mitchell, like everything was like a male hairstylist, um, Jose E. Bear. And so I, you know, just loved it. And then went to school in Hawaii, went to school in Utah. And then I moved to LA with my best friend. It's a really weird story, but we met Dave Matthews, who is big, like performer. I don't know if you guys know Dave Matthews here, but he's like the Grateful Dead, like Jerry Garcia in the States.

7:10And we got to meet him. And I think maybe it was the first time I got drunk. I don't know. But he said to us, he goes, what do you want to do? And he looked at me and I said, I want to like move to LA and work in fashion or in beauty. And he was like, you should. And truly it was that one conversation with somebody who I idolized who was successful, who like was just so inspiring to me. And so we packed up our bags. We moved out of our little small town, her and I like Romy and Michelle and went to LA. And I've been there now 24 years. That's crazy. Crazy. Didn't know anybody. And you say in your book that you moved to LA with zero plans, zero connections and zero Wi Fi.

7:50How did you get that kind of, I guess, conviction, and also just ability to take that leap, when you didn't necessarily have a kind of safety net in terms of, you know, moving across the country and being able to, quote unquote, make it? No, I think that's actually the best time to take risks because you have nothing to lose. Like I truly had$300 and I had nothing to lose. I could either, I knew I could go back home. I could marry, you know, my high school boyfriend. I knew I had that, but I just wanted to try this. And so when we went to LA, I honestly was so naive. I had never really traveled outside of Hawaii and Utah.

8:27And I got such a like, you know, like first row view to like culture and and just the different way people lived. I just was so in a bubble. And so I think like I just didn't feel like there was any risk. And now I'm like so scared to make any moves. Like now I'm like anything I post and like if I do something that is irresponsible or if I were to get canceled, that will hurt the brand. And that will hurt the people that I love that work on the brand. So I have like more pressure now, I think, than I did back then. It was just me, myself and I. And I think it's really easy not to see it that way when you are younger.

9:01But the amount of people who say like you literally have nothing to lose in your 20s, like take the leap, do what you want to do. And kind of one of the best pieces of advice we've got on this podcast was like learn what you're good at on other people's money, as in like your employer's money, like spend time training, spend time trying different roles, all of these different things. I want to just quickly, though, talk about obviously you came from a Mormon background and you left Utah and you within, I guess, as you said, like you could you could marry your high school boyfriend. You've gone on to a very ambitious career.

9:33Was that something that you saw in that environment or was that something that felt like you were making a big, I guess, a big decision that other people didn't necessarily make to to go and concentrate on your career first rather than getting married? Oh, my God. No, every single one of our friends were truly were the only two that didn't stay and get married. And so I didn't see like a working woman. I mean, I said in movies here and there, but I didn't really ever see like even again, like I didn't have a female hairstylist to really like emulate or like look up to. and when I moved to LA and I started working as a receptionist at a salon so I was working the books I was like seeing kind of like bird's eye view what was this world was about but it was mostly male dominated I knew Sally Hershberger she was like the one female hairstylist and then later on when I did the shows in Paris like I knew of Odile Jbert who's amazing as well but yeah I didn't really see anybody that was doing what I wanted to do I was just kind of being and living and hoping for the best.

10:29So tell me what the first few things that I guess went right were. I was at a Starbucks. I was doing an interview to try to be a receptionist at like an architect firm. And this woman overheard my interview and she was actually, and I had gone and like no Wi-Fi, right? Like I was pounding the pavement, just going to different salons and asking. I had no experience, but asking if I could be a receptionist. She overheard my interview and weirdly, like she worked at a really hot salon that like at the time, Winona Ryder and Jessica Alba, this was in 2002. And it was like the hot spot to be at. And so she hired me from hearing my interview.

11:08So that's how I got my foot in the door at the salon, like a total movie. And then I'd say after that, like, like you said, I was just like, I know this is my twenties. I have no money. I have nothing to lose. This is my time to really learn as much as I can. So I really like studied the manager of the salon and everything she was doing. And like, I looked at the hairstylist and I saw like a lot of like, at the time it was like a lot of hairstylists that had, you know, like they didn't have a lot of money in the bank. They had a lot of clothes, they had a lot of fancy shoes. They were like not being super responsible with their money.

11:38So that's something else I noticed at the time. And I started assisting as many people as I could. And I think from that, like I got to go work at Chris McMillan Salon for Madonna's hairstylist at the time. And I was just really watching everything, the good, the bad, and learning as much as I could about really just like getting people skills because it's I write in my book like it's not about you. No, really, it's not about you. And that was my like first dip into the like service industry and like dealing with you can meet some divas in Beverly Hills. You know, I mean, it's not even the women.

12:15It was like their daughters that would come in with like Black American Express cards and like never liked their hair. You know, like it was crazy. So I think that was, you know, something just from meeting the right people and putting myself in the position. I got to work doing extensions on my boss's clients. And at the time it was Lindsay Lohan and like Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie and Misha Barton. And they were like the cool girls that were going out and were really like in all the rag mags. So that was my first big break. And Nicole Richie and I still we talk and laugh about she's like the first time you did my hair.

12:48she said that because extensions back then were not like they are now it took me like probably six hours you just had to tediously do each one and cut them and like it was just such a nightmare and she remembers me saying oh I'm so over this like halfway through the head and she's like me too so funny that is so funny and what do you think were the few things that I guess set you aside as obviously there would have been lots of people assisting and lots of people getting great opportunities as well in LA and you've obviously you've gone so far I'd be really interested like at this stage in that early 20s really learning from everyone what do you think that you did as an assistant or as assisting people that set you apart from everyone else I never complained I mean I told you I just complained in the core to you but at work I never complained I was like really like first there in the morning last to leave and just always felt so grateful to be in the position I was in.

13:47Like, that's the one thing I was really raised with, like, the idea of just like not losing, like gratitude and like being humble. And I just was so excited to be there. Like, truly, I was so happy to be out of my small town. I couldn't believe I could like afford, barely afford to live in Los Angeles. I like shared a loft with my best friend for the first five years. And, you know, I just was so I don't know, I just couldn't believe that I was there. And I think I worked really hard. I studied everything. And I just, you know, I really had like a good sense of responsibility. But don't get me wrong.

14:23I was out partying. Like I was definitely like, is it OK to say I was dropping Molly? Because I was. I was like, you know, this little girl out of this small town. And I was like, oh, my God, these are gay men that work at this salon with me and they just want to go and party and dance. And like, this is so. And it was like my bosses at the time. would be out of the clubs. And it was just like, this was before iPhones. So no one was taking pictures and everyone was actually like living their life. So I definitely like would go and have fun. And, but then I was really buttoned up and I was like, never late for work and just really worked hard.

14:57And, you know, I just knew that I couldn't screw this up because then I'd have to go back home. Right. And I think also there's part of that that's like understanding that, yes, it's important, you know, if you choose to be there and be part of the social life as well but understanding that when you step back into what your office is so the salon like when you step back in that not necessarily crossing those lines that maybe you know the night before you've you know you're all besties all of that I do think it's also very important then to you know when you're in the workspace you're in the workspace and that sounds like something that you were definitely able to like you know come in be very professional even if you had a great relationship for sure it was weird like we'd be like oh my god I can't you know what I mean but You just go on and try to be professional and make sure that the clients were feeling good and feeling seen.

15:43And I was really good at customer service, I think. And that's what made me, I think, really good with celebrities as I started to work with celebrities because I never had an ego. I never felt like it was about me. I was there to make them feel good. I wasn't there to put my stamp on them or you know what I mean? I always just felt like I was just the hands and I'm there to try to make them feel better. No, absolutely. And I think that definitely shines through in both your book, but also kind of generally how you're, you know, you've become a celebrity in your own right. And it feels like...

16:13I mean, celebrity adjacent. No, but it felt like as in you absolutely have, you've done incredibly well and you're very well known. And I think that what's always shone through even now is that when you're doing your job, you're doing your job and you're very passionate about that and you're very clear about the parameters of that. And I think that that's really, I think it's really helpful for people to see as well. And I do think like lack of ego is, you can have a lot of ambition without needing to have a lot of ego. And I think that the people who we've seen on this podcast go the furthest have been exactly that.

16:46And I think that it's, you know, it's a great lesson. I'd love to know from this point that you're working, you're kind of assisting, but also being able to, you know, be given some of your own clients essentially or helping on your boss's clients. How did you go from that point to, I guess, being known as a celebrity hairstylist? Yeah, it did not happen overnight. So the timeline is I was a receptionist for probably two years. Then I was salon manager for a year or two. Then I was doing at the same time, I couldn't afford hair school. It was like$30 ,000, I think, at the time. And so I was doing an apprenticeship program with like an adult occupational center downtown LA.

17:24I would go there in the mornings. Then I would go to the salon and then I would work at night as a hostess at a restaurant. And that went on for a good almost a year. I was exhausted. It was like I had no life. It was the biggest sacrifice. But I knew that like if I was going to do this, this is my only way. So that was that part of time. And then assisting. I mean, honestly, I was like the 40 year old assistant. I assisted from my mid 20s till my early 30s. And I assisted in the salon. I went on tour with Madonna in 2006 with my boss and I was doing the dancers and I'm still like friends with all of them.

17:59Actually, Charm, who was the girl that I took care of, she's now Dua Lipa's choreographer. and we still keep in touch. She's the best. But so I was on Madonna's tour and then we went, I went on my own. And honestly, like at the time we didn't have Instagram. So you relied so much on being in the right place and you hope the right publicist came in. And I have a good friend, Amanda Silverman, who is like, she does Penelope Cruz and she does Lady Gaga and Pharrell and she's Rihanna. She's a huge publicist. Well, back in the day, she would come and ask for a blowout at a hotel and I was probably the least expensive options that they sent me.

18:35And I remember at the time being like, oh, I wonder what this woman does because she talks about Queen Latifah a lot. So I thought maybe like they were together. I don't know. And I, we were just, we would, you know, I didn't know what she did. It was very innocent, but we really hit it off. And so she was a huge part in like making my career happen. She started referring me to a lot of her associates at the PR firm. And that's how I first started working with Sofia Vergara. But this is like probably four or five years after I was on my own. And at the same time, before I was working with Sophia, I was paying my own way, flying coach to Paris, sneaking backstage, working the shows like at the they didn't have like iPads.

19:13It was like I sound so old telling my story, but like they had names on a piece of paper and I would just look at the piece of paper and be like, I'm so and so. And they're like, fine, come in. So I was just like going backstage and I would work on Guido's team. I got to do Alexander McQueen shows and I got to do like Givenchy shows. It was so amazing. I think it was like Hair University. And I would just, you know, do that. I did that for probably two years and then signed with an agent and started to go to New York and Paris. Legit now, right? So I was doing like Leighton Meester and Emma Stone.

19:44But I still am so crazy. Like I would get paid to go do Emma Stone for the Louis Vuitton show, right? I would go and be on Guido's team and sew wigs for the show until 2 a.m. then go and start the day at the show at like 8 a.m leave my kit bounce out of the show run down to Emma's hotel to do her for the show and then go back and like finish models because I just was like when am I ever going to get to do all this you know so I just took advantage of every single opportunity and just you know I always like to say instead of asking for permission just ask for forgiveness. So I knew like Guido could get mad if he found out.

20:25I knew Emma's publicist could be annoyed if she knew that I was doing that. But I was just like, this is I need to do as much as I can. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it sounds like you were really committed to not necessarily saying, OK, well, there's one route and I'm sure it's going to get there. Kind of identifying multiple routes to the end goal that you wanted to get to and really just putting as much effort into all of these different routes that are obviously adjacent to each other, but actually just really going like hell for leather, like doing as much as you possibly can to get to the point you want to get to.

20:55I think it's really interesting that you made sure to keep your ego in check so that you could because you couldn't have done any of that if your ego wasn't in check. But it sounds like you really had in your head that there was this kind of no job is too big or too small mindset, which definitely is something that for me is what sets people apart. It's the we're all in this together to get to an end goal. What we have to do in between that, like to get there isn't the important part it's just we're moving in the right direction and it sounds like you really had this yeah no job is too big or too small also like I think you know you can't feel like the world owes you anything like you have to do it and you can't expect other people to do it for you even you know what I mean there's a lot of things that I still do in my life I was organizing our house before I came out here and I was just like oh and I'm like no one cares about this pantry as much as I do, you know, but it's, it's true.

21:50Like, you know, if I want it to look nice, I need to do it. And I just feel like you have to keep that in mind that like no one owes you anything. And, you know, you have to have the passion. You can't lose your passion. Yeah, no. And that definitely shines through. I want to speak about the start of Instagram, because it's, it's something that's had such huge impact on your industry. Obviously at the very beginning, like the done thing wasn't necessarily to be sharing tips or kind of giving insight. In In fact, it was quite gatekept. Like the beginning of Instagram was quite showy and aspirational and just almost like billboardy.

22:24It's kind of showing your life rather than teaching people how they could also live your life. I know you've always spent a lot of time, I guess, giving people help on Instagram, like giving people tips, talking through like how you would do something. Where did you get the idea to do that from and the kind of conviction that that was what people wanted to see on Instagram at the time? I honestly think scrapbooking as a Mormon growing up, like that was Instagram. Like I was always taking pictures of my life and making little like memory books and scrapbooks. And so Instagram to me, I was like, oh, my God, it wasn't even like a tool to communicate to others.

23:00I was just like, I get to keep these memories. And again, like I still felt like, you know, maybe it's imposter syndrome that I had, but I felt like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm here. I can't believe I'm doing these things. Right. I can't believe I'm around these people. This is like crazy. When I was on photo shoots, I would take pictures behind the scenes. I have pictures of like that Louis Vuitton show I just told you about from my Blackberry. You know, Instagram to me was just like scrapbooking. And then I was thinking like, oh, my God, this is such a great tool to get information out there.

23:29And at the same time, I created Main Addicts, which was an editorial website. So when I was in Paris doing the shows, I'd ask Guido if he would like give me 30 minutes and I could get an interview with him. And like it just became this like kind of a playground for brands and professionals and consumers and, you know, people who just loved like hair. And so that happened. I think I launched that in 2014. So I am trying to think I really started like thinking about a brand, a hair brand around 2014. And, you know, my clients were all really great. I started working with the Kardashians in probably 2011, 2012.

24:10I now, you know, I'm around the family and like I'm seeing how they're utilizing social media. It wasn't even just them, though. There were like Paris Hilton was doing it, too. But it was, you know, Instagram just to me became a marketing tool. So it went from scrapbooking to marketing. And I was like, this is so fascinating. And like, honestly, there's so much that can be done here. Like I knew from the beginning and all of my counterparts were like, she's so tacky. This is so cheesy. Why is she taking pictures of like behind the scenes? I was just always taking pictures of everything. Yeah, which is funny because that's always the way things go before they change in that direction.

24:45I think especially with the beginning of social media, like a lot of the people who were in the early adoption of it were looked at as very kind of embarrassing for at least the first while that they were doing it. And in that space, obviously, the Kardashians were actually some of the first to really lean into that as a marketing tool and be posting about that. from in terms of kind of how your career was growing at that point when did you start to feel like you'd made it oh my god I mean at this point I already felt like I made it when I went to that salon as a receptionist you know what I mean like I I don't think that there was like there's like pinch me moments in my career for sure I got to do Gwen Stefani for the cover of Vogue that was like a movie i was at it was at my boyfriend now husband's apartment and i remember getting a call it was from gwen's manager and they were like she's shooting the cover of vogue down on like sony repairman studios annie lebowitz is shooting is there any way you could be down there in like the next 30 minutes and like so someone else must have dropped out no she was like they're not vibing she's not loving the hair is there any way you i drove so fucking fast thank god you were in the city no it was insane and I so like growing up in Utah like she was I just loved her so much I fully had posters of her in my room she was amazing so that was a pinch me moment and like working with John Galeano and going to the shows in such a special time it was like such a like small intimate curated time that was really special and you know like launching the brand And the day we launched Way is like forever embedded in my mind because it was just such a, like I could tell something was, there was a shift happening.

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28:08And what was the original idea for Way? Like what was the original concept behind it? I really wanted to create, and this is before this became a thing, but like a digitally native brand. I was like, it'd be really fun to be able to do this with my audience that was growing at the time. I don't even know how many followers I had then, maybe like 2 million or something. But I was like, this is so fun. I can crowdsource with all these people, ask what they want. And then I really was like paying attention as I was traveling. To be honest, like I always go to all the boutiques. Like I lived in Selfridges and Harrods and Harvey Nicks.

28:39Like I just was always curious about branding and what was out there. And I was getting sent a lot of things being a celebrity stylist. So I just felt like there was a lot missing. I was like, packaging is horrendous. I feel like everything smells either like old lady or like little girl bubble them. And I wanted something that just felt like not embarrassing to put away in your bathroom. But that worked really well and gave you kind of like, like I said, effortless hair at the time before it was really trending. but I was inspired by all those models I just told you about that I would see them like smoking a cig leaving the show and they would like or coming into the show I should say and they would just have like disheveled cool hair and like a dope outfit on like Erin Wasson I used to love she was like such a cool fashion icon and so that's really like the mood board was that and then you know we started formulating and it's just yeah the rest is history but that was really the the points of difference is like I wanted it to look good smell good work really well and be digitally connected yeah and you've spoken before about how you wanted way to be kind of built by the customers and like very much with this customer input you just spoke about it then in terms of that two-way communication and that's so fun until you have a dry shampoo foam that explodes in people's bathrooms yeah and then everyone's sending pictures of it and you're like oh my god no absolutely and I always talk about that in terms of like, you know, having a platform when you start a business is incredibly useful in lots of ways.

30:10And you get essentially a kind of ready made audience. At the same time, you obviously need to start at the scale that can deal with that many people shopping at any one time when you essentially, you know, you'll have tested things and you'll have tested the site and you'll have tested the products, but not at the scale that you're then going to sell it. So there's definitely an occupational hazard as part of that as well. I mean, shit happens. It's you know, the thing is, it happens to everybody. Like even for Maine, my tool brand I launched, it's like we're hitting hurdles here and there. And I keep telling the team, I'm like, just so you know, every brand is going through this.

30:42Like it's so stressful. And there's things that like, feel like such an important decision. You don't know what to do. But like every brand goes through this. We're not alone in that. And so how have you, because obviously at this stage, you've got an incredible career, I guess, off your own back and you're now expanding this into something that, you know, everyone who sees your social media or whatever it might be walks into a Selfridges, walks into a Sephora, like is able to kind of get their hands on. How did that adjustment go for you? Because obviously you've run your personal brand, but you haven't run a direct to consumer product brand.

31:15How did you find that, I guess, evolution in your career? I mean, I had no idea what I was doing. And at the time, it wasn't like there were a ton of brands in the hair space that was, you know, doing what we were trying to do. I feel like I want to rewind a little bit, too, just to make this point, because it wasn't like I just magically said I want a brand and it happened. I also like had been saving a ton of money. So I had been putting money aside because I knew I didn't know how much, but I knew I needed to have money to be able to invest in this idea. I made a really cheesy deck that like this is what I wanted to look like and this is what the brand will stand for.

31:52And, you know, I had my friend Tony Umel in New York. He's an amazing creative. And so he made me some mocks of like what it would look like. And I went to every client, anybody I knew that had money. Like I just went and said, do you know anybody? And it's so funny now in hindsight. I'm still friends with a lot of those people. It's like managers of clients. And they're like, I'm so mad I didn't do that. but you know I had a connection with a client that was in Dubai and she you know really believed in it and got it thank God and so like you know her and I like went to New York and we went to every laboratory and we went to all of the creative houses and just like I still have my notebooks from that time of like what you need to do and and what it means to make the manufacturing and like distribution and like I learned so much in every meeting and I just took notes and I wasn't like afraid to add.

32:42I'm like, I'm a hairstylist. I went to public high school in Hawaii, you know, like I am not like trying to pose as anything. I'm very like humble. I'm a student. I want to learn this. And so I remember just really like learning a lot in that time. And then you hope for the best, you know, you hire a small team. I'm really proud to say that like one of our first hires is now our CEO and she's incredible. And like, you know, you just start off one foot in or the other and you start a small team and you are wearing many hats like I'm in that position now with Maine and I forgot because it's been eight years it's the infant stage and it's like everyone has to do a lot and wear a lot of hats and just be team you know like you cannot be in it for yourself you have to be a team and so eight years later you know our team way is like a family and everybody's like it's embarrassing how much we all like love working with one another and was Was there ever a part of you that was worried that because you'd already established yourself as a hairstylist and had built a really incredible career that if Wade didn't go well, you could somewhat ruin that personal brand?

33:49Yeah, I mean, I think that was it's yeah, it was definitely scary for sure. But I also really, really, really just felt in my gut. This was the right time and this was the right thing to do. And I was so passionate about it. And to be honest with you, I didn't have at the time like global domination. And I was psyched that I had a meeting with Sephora. I just showed them my deck of like what I thought this should be. And they were like, we love it. It's so great. Let's do it. And so like to be in Sephora alone, that was enough. So I didn't know what was going to happen, but I got to that place.

34:27And that meant a lot to me. Like they've been so supportive from day one. They've been so amazing to me. and I now have a tool brand at Sephora and I'm working with the same people and like it's yeah it's a dream come true but to answer your question about kind of compartmentalizing and like the personal brand now starting a brand being a celebrity hairstylist at the time I was just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what stuck as a brand started to need me more and like pick up more I was still getting a lot of demands on the celebrity styling side and I did not want to let Like not only my clients, but my friends that I like grew up with.

35:04At the time, I was working a lot with Chrissy Teigen and Khloe Kardashian and Kim and Kourtney and I and Sofia Vergara still. So like I wanted to make sure that they were taken care of. And my assistants that had worked under me, I want to say I was a hard boss. I have such crazy work ethic and I definitely like worked them really hard. But my old assistant, Irenelle De Leon, is doing so amazing now. She's like a Dyson ambassador is doing Penelope Cruz. She's incredible. And so I just knew I was like, listen, we now have an agency called Highlight Agency where we represent me, Mary Phillips and my old assistant, Justine Marjan.

35:43We now have this like little like agency where we represent our assistants who have worked really hard and paid their dues and are ready to be like the next generation of us. And we like really concentrate on helping them become a brand themselves and not just do hair, but like become a brand themselves. So it's so fun that like it's so rewarding for me. Yeah. No, I completely agree. Yeah. But I'm always finding solutions to problems and I'm really good at planning ahead. Like I plan really far in advance. So I while I didn't know that way it was going to be as successful as it was, I knew my career was picking up and I knew like I wish I would have had somebody when I started out that could like.

36:22help guide me and mentor me because I had no idea what I was doing. And a lot of the guys I was working around, it was different. Like a woman working with a woman on hair is more emotional. It's not like, and I had so much competition with the boys because not only are they gorgeous, they're funny, but like most of the women coming in the salon are probably not getting the most attention from their husbands. So like they would come in and just get like zhuzh and pampered by a really hot guy like that was my competition so you know I just felt like as a woman though I felt differently like when I was on set versus if like I'm not saying all male hairstylists are like this but it was more of an emotional connection I think yeah no absolutely and what would you say at that stage that you were really working on way and really hoping for it to take off what would you say that the best decisions you made were in I guess what has led to the future success of the brand?

37:18I mean, it wasn't like always easy. And I think, you know, you do you do your best. I am still like fumbling, you know, like even with Maine, like we've had to have like we've had some staffing issues. We've had like issues with production, like, you know, timelines and there's always something. So I don't know. I think that the good decisions, I'm really good at finding great people who are really good at what they do. And I don't micromanage. I just like put all my faith and hope in everybody. So that has served me well, for sure. But I don't, I don't like nitpick and like, you know, I let them do them.

37:59And with way, how do you think about new ideas for products that you know, are going to be somewhat successful? Yeah, it's an interesting spot to be in because, you know, as our line has grown, like I never thought that we would be so loved in like the body space and we're really a lifestyle brand now. And, you know, there were some styling products that I loved that I thought were really great that maybe didn't do so well. So like it's, it's hard because you have pressure from retailers because they have kind of like their plan of like what they want to have going on with all the brands. So they want you to make something and then you have community feedback right everybody's wanting all kinds of things and then as a team you kind of ideate and you think about like what you want to do so now at way it's crazy it's like it's a full on we have a full team we have like systems in place it's really like a well-oiled machine and so we kind of take from all of that and then as a group ideate and decide on like what's the best thing to do but to be honest with you likest bart's is a great example like that was our most requested like people were demanding like threatening us if we didn't come out withst bart's and other products so we have now a body cream we have a scalp and body scrub we have our hair and body mist and a hair oil and it's just going to probably keep going because everyone loves it so much yeah so really using their customer to like format where you're going next i mean yeah and there's like sometimes a trend will hit like hair and body mist is a thing now i think like gen alpha gen z has made it so popular and you've seen like Sol de Janeiro's doing really well, hair and body mist.

39:32So I think, you know, sometimes you have to like roll with that and go really quickly and like figure out what's like hitting right now and make sure that you're staying like, I don't want to say like with the trends, but that you're just, you've got your finger on the pole. Yeah. And you're agile and all of that. I want to know how it feels when you referenced, for example, some styling products there that, you know, didn't take off in the way you thought they were going to. How does that feel for you as a founder and also as a hairstylist so someone who you know is like this is a really good product i mean i'm going through it now so i came out with these ceramic hair tools and i i was adamant about it had to be instead of you having to buy a kit of like detachable tools i'm like not everybody wants to use all three of those tools so let's like do a you know kind of a price deduction and we'll have like we call it the power bottom base but like i wanted customers to be able to choose their own adventure, right?

40:25It has been a disaster because at shelf, everyone's like, it's too complicated doing the math and figuring out like, well, how much is it if I were to buy all three, but then how much is it if I just buy this one? And it's been so hard. And so after our first quarter sales report, I said to Sephora, I go, you know what? Forget it. I'm going to like, we're going to just sell solid tools. We're not going to do this story anymore. It's just not working. And even Sephora said to me, they go, this is wild that you're making this decision so fast but actually we've seen brands not do that and it hurts them in the long run so much so it's really brave that you're like taking it off now and fixing it so I I mean I again I do not know everything like I can give my opinion but I'm just like one opinion but I also like no obviously I'm a strong believer that no one knows everything it's how you like respond to the information you're given and I think that a lot of people like it's really easy to get too attached to thinking that your idea is right or like that is what should sell especially if you know you've done market research and you've been really thinking like this is going to be the next big thing like it's tough like I know firsthand like sometimes when you come out with something that you're like this is my favorite thing we've released for a long long time and it like sits it is painful but it's also like as a business owner how you receive that information how you from that information, how you speak to the customer.

41:51And I love how transparent you are about it as well, because I do think a lot of people assume that when you've got to your stage in your career, there's kind of none of that. Like everything's somewhat turns to gold. Oh my God, no. It's humbling experiences all day long over here. Oh, I relate. I very much relate. But I do think as well that it's really within business and especially with a product business, it's about being able to iterate and it's about being able to understand what your customer is telling you. And how do you make sure that you as a brand still stay close to your customer, despite, you know, you've got a huge following and so does the brand.

42:30How do you still have that those kind of two way conversations with them? It's so helpful. I still like check DMs like the other day. There was somebody who follows me. They told me their experience that they had at one of the retailers here. She saw that we were in London and very detailed told me like this person didn't really know much about the brand. I had been asking about this and I didn't feel like they were giving me the information that I needed. And I didn't end up buying products because of it. And I just want to let you know. So helpful, by the way. And she was like, I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but I just want to let you know.

42:59So then I can take a screen grab and send that to the team. And we can like talk as a team and how we fix those things. So it's so helpful to be able to have that, you know, relationship. But we actually in our office will have like quarterly focus groups who will have a product that we're working on and we'll bring them in and have them try it out and give us their feedback. So that's super, super helpful. Yeah, that's amazing. And I do think as well that there's an understandable fear that like when your brand is growing on social media and has this audience and has people talking about it and talking about when the things don't go so well, all of this.

43:33And I understand the fear and don't get me wrong, it's terrible when something goes wrong and you're like your heart like goes into your throat and it's, you know, it can be really horrible but at the same time I always think having customers interacting with you and engaging with you whether good or bad it only ever means they care like if they're coming to you and they're saying do you know what I bought this product and I really didn't like it and like this is why and all of this like that feedback is such a blessing like the half the time people will receive that and they'll return it and they'll never tell you why and I do think as well as much as it can be overwhelming it's also it's so it's such a blessing to get that from your customers and I think also we're it's funny because I'm just thinking about like the advice I would give clients like celebrities that I work with and if they have like some sort of a scandal or something that's like headlining daily mail that day and it feels so heavy and it feels like everyone's like it's embarrassing at times right and I remember always just being like listen the world moves as fast as Instagram scrolls like and there's also so much coming at everybody right now that like it might feel huge in your world but like it's this in the scheme of things and so I think it's the same with the brand to be honest like there was one when the foam thing happened we actually leaned into it and kind of like we wrote like oh sorry we were reading some of the bad reviews and we really leaned into like you know what again like this brand like we're human in many ways and this is something else that like just it shit happens and so I think instead of like pretending it doesn't we really just kind of leaned into it and I think people appreciated that But it's important to not just pay attention to like the few bads.

45:08Of course. And like let that get to you. Even like with launches, like a launch might not go the way we planned. And like we're still doing the whole 360 plan for this launch. And it might not do as well, but they're not going to be hit after hit. Like we're going to have some that are stronger than others. So yeah, absolutely. And that's where you learn as well. And with founding Maine, when did you know it was time to start something new? Because obviously you are very busy. You're doing a lot. I, okay, so it's funny. I was talking with the team from Dyson last night because I just love Dyson so much.

45:40And I worked with them for eight years. So the year that I launched Way, they launched the Supersonic. And I got chosen to be like their ambassador. But not even just an ambassador. Like I sit with James in his office. He listens to everything, takes out a piece of paper and pen. Like we vibed. And I got to work with them on Airwrap. And they are just so incredible with technology and coming out with styling with air. in that time I was with them. And especially during the pandemic, I was getting a lot of feedback of like, I can't afford it. Are you doing a giveaway? I wish that worked on my hair.

46:11So again, I like to create solutions to problems. So I was taking that in and I was like, you know what? I really feel like we need to do something that's affordable, but looks cute. The tool space, it's very strange. I don't know how it is here, but in the States, I was looking at like the competitive landscape like Conair and Revlon and like these brands like haven't really updated in a very long time so it felt similar to way I was like I thought this when I launched way I was like god I'd love to do tools as well but you can only do so much so I just again like I wrote down like what I want it to look like feel like what I want it to sound like I didn't want to be a science tech really serious brand in the space we do brushes and we do tools and hair accessories I wanted it to feel like almost like Hello Kitty, like the feeling Hello Kitty gives you where it's just like a happy brand.

47:02I feel like the world's on fire. I just wanted to create something that like made people feel good and look cute. So that's how that came to be. And how's that been building that from scratch again? Because obviously you've gone back into a much earlier stage of company than where it is. Oh, my God. I mean, it's been second time around. Listen, I got it in Sephora. I actually was like in a weird love triangle with the retailers because I'd done it for somebody else. And then Sephora read my article saying I was doing tools. And then I was like, I didn't think you'd want this. It's like a really accessible price points for like a younger consumer.

47:35And they were like, we 100 % want it. So that kind of changed things. But like I definitely now like have the numbers for different laboratories and like the best of the best to create. So it's definitely easier in some ways. But again, like building a team in 2023 versus 2015 is so different. It's a very different landscape when it comes to hiring. So that's definitely been like a challenge. What have been the biggest differences? Gen Z's legacy. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'd say the biggest difference is honestly, I do feel like I feel like people are more distracted now. You know, like it's kind of harder to get full attention, if that makes sense.

48:17Like, I think that everyone's very and not just distracted. It's a different like economy is different. We know too much. Like I just said, the world's on fire because we're seeing so many like headlines and there's just so much going on that feels heavy. So like in 2015, we were building the team and it just felt like it felt like a weirdly easier, happier time. And I think that everyone is really worried. I'm reading a book right now actually called The Anxious Generation. And it's about how we failed Gen Z because it was really like a human experiment to give them phones so young and for them to have so much information.

48:52And that's why everyone kind of has this like built up anxiety. It's really hard. It's it's it's troubling. you know that is so interesting actually I I have thought a lot about you know obviously the first generation to grow up and get kind of social media quite early and all of that and I think that we're really going to start seeing the longer terms effects of that and you know it was for the parents at the time to kind of work out what the right thing was to do because if suddenly or if suddenly everyone in their class has a phone then everyone's on it you know everyone I had Facebook before I was 13.

49:26Like, you know, it was a lot really young. Uh huh. But like I didn't. I didn't get a smartphone until I was in my mid 20s. So like I think it's really a lot of it's just a lot of information at a young age. Yeah. No, I definitely think that. And like same with when we first got the 24 hour news cycle, like having this 24 hour like social media cycle where it's not just the news. It's also all of your friends who you went to school with and all of your colleagues and all of the people who have the jobs you want and like all of that. Yeah. I do think that as much as there's so much inspiring content online and so much content that, you know, can really, really help.

50:01I also think that there's an element of grass is always greener that we're never going to be able to address based on the fact that this is a generation that's grown up entirely on social media and feels like there are like a hundred paths that they should be taking at any one time. And every single path they're taking is the opportunity cost of like 99 others. And therefore, they're always missing out. And that's just such a shit place to be in terms of, you know, being able to develop this kind of sureness in yourself and what you want and what you want from your life. All of those things are very hard to do when you're also confronted with how well everyone else is doing and how everyone else's career looks.

50:42when you don't know, like you by definition pretty much do not know any of the things that they were too busy to show you or too upset to show you or whatever it might be. And like we're rewarded for showing the best sides of things because there's a lot of aspiration on social media. Yeah. We're probably rewarded as well for showing the worst because there's like this vulnerability side. And it's clickbait. Everything is clickbait. It's all negative meant to make you sit there longer. It's all meant to make you stay on the platform longer. And how have you found that's impacted, I guess, trying to build this brand?

51:18And, you know, you're obviously selling to this younger generation as well. What have you kind of learned about these customers and these employees as well, like these team members who are of that age? I think, you know, here's the thing. I don't want to say that, like, people aren't as hardworking as they once were. I just think, like, again, things like life has gotten more complicated. And, you know, I think what I can do is try to keep a good boundary. I feel like emotion has come into work, the workplace a lot. And I think we just went through a pandemic. Like we're all still a little rattled.

51:48That was crazy. So, you know, I try to have empathy about it. That's just what I noticed, though. Like it is a little bit harder, I think, to kind of like team build today than it was in 2015. But it's very cliche, but I've never been one to be super competitive in my field. I even look at like the the other founders in the in Sephora that are amongst us like there's bread there's crown affair there's day pattern and a briogeo and like I am friends with the founders and like I sometimes will mentor some of the newer founders because I'm like we have to stay in community period like whether you have a brand or whether you're like I see people out with their friends and everyone's on their phone and no one's talking to each other and they're not like looking at each other's eyes and it freaks me out like I just think like we have to as human beings like stay in like in real life community together and like I want them to win because if they don't then like there's not going to be more opportunities for more founders that are you know have great ideas and good visions and so I don't know I think like it's it's complicated our phones are such a blessing and such a curse at the same time yeah no absolutely I think that's definitely definitely true and developing good boundaries around that is hard but very very important it's just tough to know what the boundaries should be yeah but don't take like my uber eats from me you know don't take don't take ways i need all these things but you know it's crazy though it is part of so much of our life yeah and it's made a lot of it better as well like as in like you know even just ways say like how can i get there faster can i tell you what's so crazy when my like three-year-old will be like mommy you forgot your phone here's your phone and brings it to me and I'm like oh my god he thinks that that's so important to me because he just sees me always with it yeah that type of thing I always like so weird it's it's like seeing younger people as you say like sitting around the table with like every single person like not even communicating that's like I completely agree that that's kind of like a jump scare so weird like why even be together I know and I'd like to speak a little bit about your life now.

53:52You're an entrepreneur. You're still a hairstylist. What does your kind of routine look like? Very regimented. I've had the same executive assistant who is now director of brands for me for seven years. She's incredible. So we both kind of work in the same way. Very, very scheduled. So I even have like free time in the morning for meditation, time with the kids, time with the dogs. Then I have my morning, like if I'm working from home, It's my morning Zooms or morning meetings. And then I have a proper lunch where I actually take like a full hour and try not to do anything and just like eat and maybe stare out at the wall.

54:30And then I do another batch usually of calls. And then on the weekends, I'm very good. Here's the one thing I have to say. Anybody who is like owns a company, owns a brand or is a boss. Like, I think the best thing you can do is try to not have any work texts or emails beyond 6 p.m. and before like 9 a.m. Truly like the world is not going to end. Like, I think it's such a disruption when you get in your very few free time on weekends or at the end of the day. Like, it's such a disruption to like that. Like, we don't get a lot of like relaxation time. And so I think that that's something that's like so important.

55:08I try not to do that. No, I completely agree. And I think it's really tough with the way brands work on social media now, because obviously it does mean that it's pretty always on. Oh, yeah. Social media manager is like, oh, God. Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. It's so hard. Very much part of the job. I'll look over my poor head of socials right now. She cries in the corner. But yeah, no, absolutely. I also think that whenever I do that and whenever I'm kind of like, I actually have had enough. I cannot. And you put your phone like in a room, whatever, and enjoy your evening. I would like to say I do that more than I actually do.

55:42But every time I do that, you do get reminded that you decide when that world gets to end. Like as in like you decide that that's not there anymore. Because when you put that phone down and actually kind of same as you said, like when, you know, you've had someone that's been front page Daily Mail, had a bit of a story out at the time, whatever it might be. I remember messaging someone who was going through something like that and I was like just remember the second you put your phone down and go out for a walk no one's going to be standing outside with like fucking pitchforks like no one's going to be there like forcing you to respond to this or telling you you're a terrible person.

56:17You're not in physical danger. Exactly and actually I think a lot of our because we're so connected I think it's really easy to forget that we can disconnect and not just like you know have a nice relax but actually just decide that that world isn't there for a few hours and for the evening and for however long you need i used to do whole weekends off social media just like every single weekend i don't do that anymore why i have a better relationship with social media now so i'm i'm a lot more kind of there's less emotional attachment to it in general so when i am on it it's more out of like interest and i don't know probably a form of relaxation which i know it isn't really but there's nothing better than when you forget your phone or like, yeah, when you just like, Oh, my God, I haven't been on it.

56:58Like, it's just such a great feeling. We don't get it very often. Yeah, no, absolutely. And how have you found? Obviously, you've, you've, you have a family now, you've got dogs, you've got a family and you've got, you know, you've still got these brands, and you've spent a huge amount of time building them, and you're incredibly busy. And it's easy to see how busy you are. How have you found the impact of having kind of all of that at once? Because we've had a lot of people come on here and speak about, you know, how that's worked for them in certain ways, how that hasn't worked for them in certain ways, how it's been really fucking hard in other ways.

57:30I'd love to know from your experience how, yeah, how your life has been in the past few years in terms of kind of really juggling everything. I have to say I was, I'm a non-emotional person, so I don't have a lot of ups and a lot of downs, which is good and bad. But I think, you know, I went to a therapy camp called the Hoffman Process in 2019 because I was kind of a shell of myself. I was not like I was stressing out more. I felt just overwhelmed. And I would have like Saturday night meltdowns that my husband would call it that, where I would just cry because I'm like, I can't do it all. And so I think like I was just not as happy as I used to be.

58:13I went there and I have to say I came out feeling like more in control and realizing like, I don't know, it kind of, it made me feel like everything's going to be okay. We're all going to be okay. Everyone's going to be okay. And that's the best way to describe it. It's like 10 years of therapy in one week, but I was off my phone for the week. They take your phone. And I got to be with my thoughts and I got to like, kind of go back to who I was before I like moved to LA and connect a little bit more. When I got out, that's when I was like, Like I told my husband, I'm like, oh, my God, I never want to have kids.

58:46I think we should do this. And he's like, what? I'm like, I think we deserve to be a part of this and like have this experience. And I think we'd both be really good at it. We should do it. So we had kids. And then we started spending more time in Seattle and being outdoors more and just like finding I kind of just feel like I found the things that really made me happy. And I did realize I was getting so much validation from work. I was constantly hearing like, I don't know how you do it all. Oh, my God, you do so much. And like, sure, I was getting validation, but like I was also miserable, you know.

59:17So I think like I luckily, listen, year one to four of building a brand is really intense. Like I don't think people understand how much work goes into it. It's it's so stressful and it's not always going to work out, you know. So you have to learn to like deal with that and also like pivot and know that like maybe what you had planned isn't going to work out and you've got to go and do something else. and also I think you know I got some really great advice from Kris Jenner because I was stressing out about something with way and I was just like being really hard on myself and she was like you are doing so amazing for your first time this is your first brand this is incredible and it's not going to be the last thing you ever do like you're going to go on and do so many amazing things in your life you're not like you're in your 30s you know I'm now in my 40s but she's like you have a whole life ahead of you of doing all these incredible things and I it really like took hearing that for me to be like oh my god I'm so like stuck in this moment and letting it like take over in a bad way and so I kind of just feel like I started to relax a little bit more so I'm definitely like I I feel I feel just really like lucky and I try to I gotta tell you the biggest thing for me is meditation and gratitude when I don't do that that's when I start to get anxiety like shortness of breath I start to feel like oh I hate everybody but when I'm like regularly doing like a morning meditation and writing down three things I'm grateful for in my life it and my habit tracker is my favorite thing too like when I'm doing the things that are good habits and make me just like you might not feel it that day but like a week of doing it you're gonna feel so good so that definitely helped too yeah no that makes a lot of sense and I think is something that ties a lot of advice together from high achievers who've been able to find this good amount of balance and not necessarily you know it doesn't mean compromising your work at all.

1:01:06It actually means improving your work through being able to be more present, be better at your job. Like I'm so bad at my job when I'm like really distracted or completely stretched. And I often forget that because I think it's better to push forward rather than rest. And actually it's such a false narrative. That's the whole like, like drowning in work is not the message that I ever want to like put out there. Truly. Like I'm really good at being able to have like greet teams that's why i'm able to do stuff but like i can only do so much in 24 hours what if i was like oh it's ayahuasca like that's all you have to do just do it every day well that would be fun an original piece of advice oh my god i'm so scared to ever do that yeah it's funny though people come back from doing ayahuasca and they're like oh i know i'm so changed i'm like i don't want to throw up in a bucket no and also my lack of control that would throw me into orbit like same same but you know what's funny the same type of person no but my husband laughs at me because he can tell when i'm getting overwhelmed because i start organizing our house this is the exact and i start labeling everything because i feel out of control no i the pottering it's like violent pottering like i'll start just like kind of like wafting around the house fun i love that yeah i know but it's a bad sign for me he came home and like his his drawers in our closet were labeled like gym lounge underwear sucks he's like why are you labeling my stuff and i'm like just because it needed to be it was the dopamine hit i got yeah i started to be doing the pantry when i'm starting to feel overwhelmed yeah i love that we're definitely the same type of person um and what is the best piece of advice that you've ever been given oh my god a few things come to mind okay so i used to have in my locker in the salon sergeant amont said don't be jealous of your peers be inspired by them and I really have like held on to that and then Tracy Cunningham who's a celebrity colorist told me that rejection is God's protection which I think is so smart and then Kris Jenner telling me like to just chill out and and be proud of myself and take it in and know that like there's so much more that I'm going to do and and just not be so hard on myself for sure no absolutely well thank you so much for joining me you're going by so fast i know so

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