Ep. 106 How to Find Your Passion + Secure Your Big Break with Grammy-Winning Kamille

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1:33What is up and welcome to Working Hard Hardly Working. Today I am joined by the incredibly talented singer-songwriter and record producer Camille. Camille has made a monumental impact on the music industry. She's won a Grammy, a Brit Award, been nominated for a Mercury Prize, all before releasing her debut album. Her background that spans absolutely everything from penning chart-topping hits for artists like Little Mix, Sam Smith and Mabel to now seeing huge success as an independent artist. Her co-writing and co-production credits have accumulated to over 6.8 billion streams on Spotify alone as well as 25 UK platinum certifications, 5 UK number one singles, 19 UK top 10 singles, number one singles in over 15 countries.

2:20I can literally guarantee you'll know at least 10 of her songs. Her path into the industry is incredible too. She attended theatre school but then left the industry to do a degree in economics and ended the world of finance before coming back to her first passion. In today's episode I wanted to provide a real insight into how to break into the music industry, what it's like now and how it's evolving and Camille was so helpful at demystifying all things the music industry, offering invaluable advice and sharing her experiences from both behind the scenes and center stage but on top of that she is generally just the most inspiring person with such an incredible mindset around success like listening to her just makes you want to get up and work like insert Kim Kardashian quote about how nobody wants to work these days and how you just got to get up and work she is like listening to this made me like riled up like I just wanted to I wanted to go to work I wanted to do more and I feel like she's just like a pot of inspiration so sit back relax and get ready to deep dive into the world of music and general inspiration and success with Camille before we get into the podcast if you could just go and rate this on whichever podcast app you are listening to this on it makes a huge difference to the podcast and the types of incredible conversations we're able to have the types of guests we're able to get on so no it's probably something you don't think about but if you could just go rate it now or follow it it makes a huge difference thank you so much thank you so much for joining here i'm so happy to be here i am so excited to have you here honestly like as i was kind of saying i feel like we just we haven't had I mean there's I would say there's no one quite like you but I would say that we haven't had anyone that's like a similar career path even that's done any like anywhere near as like how well you've done in this industry and I feel like it's such a tough industry to get into yeah and you don't hear a lot of honest stories you only really hear like big failure or big success yeah so I feel like like as in in terms of like people like Simon Cowell as you were saying yeah but like I feel like you've done so well I want to hear your story and how it's come about I've got a lot to tell you perfect let's go straight into it so I ask everyone at the beginning whether you feel like at the moment you're more working hard or hardly working I'm definitely working hard 100 % I think last year probably in fact I haven't been like hardly working for a long time I feel like I'm always working hard but I think that's because of my imposter syndrome which is at an all-time high constantly and I feel like it means that I always feel like I have something to prove which is kind of a gift and a curse because it keeps you really humble but it also means you're never going to stop trying to get something right and it keeps you humble and thirsty and like very much like going for the next thing but it is also like incessant it's horrible actually someone did a linkedin post the other day where they were like i was listening to like women on podcasts versus men on podcasts and women are constantly asked about imposter syndrome like constantly and the reason it is is obviously if you go into an industry and you're getting higher and higher up in that industry and you don't see anyone reflective of you yeah then you're gonna have a bit more imposter syndrome because by definition you feel like you're further than you belong which is going to be exacerbated by being a black woman as well oh it's even harder and yeah i'd love to quickly speak about that before we even go into like the beginning of your career because like have you found your imposter syndrome has it's funny me talking about how we always ask women about imposter syndrome me being like so tell me about your imposter syndrome um but like Like how has, have you always had imposter syndrome?

5:56I have, I think, because I feel like I had such huge shoes to fill. My mum has an MBE. My dad's like an incredible businessman. And I feel like my family were very much, you know, successful people. So I definitely feel like I've always wanted to kind of emulate that in my own career. And I feel like I'm never good enough. And not anything they've put on me, that's definitely something I've put on myself. and also I do feel like in my career now that you don't actually feel like you're doing work like making songs if you're having fun at it it doesn't feel like work and so typically I find a lot of musicians and creatives will tell you that they have a lot of imposter syndrome because it's like a quick day's work sometimes to make a massive hit that could change your whole life and be on the radio worldwide and I think that's definitely something I live with every day I'm always thinking did I do that or was that good or what was that that I just did that amazing hit right yeah and I can see like obviously that's a good thing and lots of yeah I can also imagine that it's like the relationship we like as our bodies have with work is that we tell ourselves we need to do something like we write it down or put on a to-do list whatever it might be and we tick it off and we've done it or we go to work we come back eight hours later say and we've done it that must be messed with a little bit when actually that parameter of like that you've been taught going through school for example of like you show up and then you've done it and you've essentially ticked that off when that looks like such different things like sometimes as you've said that looks like spending an hour in a studio sometimes it looks like a week sometimes it looks like exactly it must mess with you a little bit in terms of your relationship between like okay I might have just done an hour and changed my whole life and I also might have just done six months on something and done nothing like moving wise in your career yeah i can imagine that messes with your head a bit it can do i think as well in this industry you don't know from day to day what's going to happen you don't for example you can make a song you think is incredible and then it just literally completely flops which has happened quite a lot in my career me with my instagram posts oh my god okay yeah all of us are like instagram and tiktok at the moment you're like oh literally one like i'm like okay but at the same time i definitely feel like it's something that keeps me hungry i think it's one of those industries where you're never satisfied because of that so it's a good and a bad thing but yeah imposter syndrome is definitely a little friend that lives with me at the moment for sure yeah and i heard someone talking about that there are two different really good approaches that i've heard about imposter syndrome yeah um one of them is that obviously like when we're talking to there's like this amazing harvard business review article that was written by two black women who were talking about basically saying like stop asking women why they have imposter syndrome and start asking industries why women And especially black women are going to have imposter syndrome.

8:35When they look around, they see essentially a lack of representation. And I feel like that's really, really, really important to think about because it's like, OK, when you displace the onus from you to the industry, that's incredibly impressive. That's a really, really cool perspective, actually. And I think probably quite accurate because in my experience through this industry, I haven't had many black female counterparts to look at for inspiration. I've had to kind of be that person for others a lot of the time, which I don't mind. and I'm happy to take that on my shoulders because I think if you have any level of platform, I just think personally, I think it's our duty to kind of inspire others on some level.

9:07Absolutely. So that's definitely what I've tried to do, but I would have loved to have seen more when I was coming through. Yeah. And I definitely think, yeah, that's probably a very good kind of summary of why we can as black women have a lot of imposter syndrome. Right. And then also a lot of like feeling the need for you to, for example, if you decided this wasn't for you, still feeling like you need to fight that entire battle because you're the one setting that inspiration for other people when it's also your life I know right that's the thing I see a lot of there are a lot of celebrities who are like no I'm gonna do what I want I'm not your role model and I get that perspective as well because it shouldn't be that you know it shouldn't be a responsibility to have to inspire but I definitely feel like I'm aware of the fact that me just making a song for example I learned how to produce music on my own and me now making productions on my own completely and people going on to like Spotify credits and seen just my name under producer I know the effect that will have on other women especially other black women so I just feel like my responsibility is to make sure I'm doing the most that I can with what I have to at least show others that they can do that as well and do much more than me when they're doing it yeah no absolutely and the other thing I heard about imposter syndrome which I think is a fucking brilliant way of looking at it is we talk about how you need to get out of your comfort zone yeah and that imposter syndrome is literally your body saying you are doing better than you expected you would do and that's never a bad thing like 100 % it might feel uncomfortable yeah but it's a good thing I think every single time I've signed a really big deal like I've signed some massive publishing deals in my time and I feel like every single time I've signed them and she signed on the dotted line I've literally wanted to run it's so funny I mean my management laugh about it because I've like usually after a publishing deal the team of people there will want to like have drinks with you and chat and take pictures and I'm literally like get me out of here before they realize like what they've done because I just feel like I don't deserve it I feel like oh my god this amount of money I've never seen in my life and that's a very big thing I think that a lot of people experience when you're moving upwards in your career you do start to feel like is this do I deserve this and but you do deserve it I think it just takes sometimes a minute for your brain sometimes to catch up with what's going on in your life exactly and it's being able to use that as a thermostat to probably show you you're doing the right thing and you're doing well enough rather than like you wouldn't have the opportunity if you weren't ready so take it exactly and it's never a bad idea even if you they did give you the opportunity and you actually weren't ready like what's going to improve by you not taking I know because you kind of live into it don't you kind of like fall into what is kind of set before you even if you're not ready you kind of become that yeah in a way yeah that's happened to me a few times actually yeah yeah I've had to just get on with it exactly and I want to to give people a a little bit of context I want to go back to your early life yeah can you tell me a little bit about what your early life was like whether this was something you always wanted to do or like what were your dreams growing up I definitely wanted to be successful that was all I knew I didn't know how exactly I wanted that to be or what it would look like but my parents were very successful from a young age um and they worked so hard they had like a chain of restaurants and my dad was like into property and then my mum went on to like do incredible things within business and I just knew I wanted that for myself and I remember at school being really into maths economics and I started off wanting to do architecture realized the degree was seven years I said absolutely not and then thank you yeah no no I thought it was really cool and I loved art as well so I was trying to mix like physics with with art but it didn't quite work out for me so then I thought okay let me try something in maths and then I went on to do economics at university but more so because I thought it would earn a lot if I'm really honest I thought I heard people earn a lot in this industry why not I try that I like maths why not it's so funny how the generation has changed even now like when I see people going through uni now I'm like I don't know even as a parent now I'm like would I force or encourage like really strongly encourage my son to go and do this at university and study this or would I look at his passions and see what he's really good at and like be pushing that from a young age I feel like you have to be passionate about what you're doing more than anything and I think I don't know it's just not the normal thing now to have to go and do the whole I'm going to study for five or six years and come out and do this job that I studied for I think your path now is like like this everyone's kind of just figuring out what they want to do and actually I think content creation has been such an incredible thing for so many things people to discover what they want to do even musicians I think are discovering new parts of themselves through now having to create content you're kind of discovering your likes your dislikes what other things about you're interesting there's just so much more to us I think and I actually think content creation has been incredible for that as a society yeah to kind of open up a lot more doors for people and to break down barriers in all industries as well because you can see someone like write a song on TikTok for example and that person can get a record deal tomorrow this is it I mean I did an amazing little video with Hobbycraft the other day I went into Hobbycraft and they knew my whole song and we did like this amazing content thing that went viral and I'm like that's an amazing brand that you would never expect to be partnering with someone like me just thinking about how they can be different and open up doors to different things so yeah I don't know I think it's an interesting world I think we all just kind of discover what we like and what we don't like and I still am on that path even though I'm in music there's so much more to me that I think people don't even know so I'm just kind of still discovering myself I feel like yeah yeah and how did that before we move on from your kind of moving on from finance how did your kind of career in finance I guess start to shape what now is your career in the music industry oh that's an interesting question for me I think initially it was just I was not happy at all like I was honestly so unhappy in my job and that happens to a lot of people obviously but for me I felt like and I say this a lot I felt like Neo in the matrix when he's looking at screens and numbers and I just wanted to leave and it was so funny it was a rainy day just like when he got given the pill which pill do you take the red or the blue that was literally me and I just walked out of my job and I just didn't tell them where I was going I said I was going out for lunch I just didn't come back no literally that was what I did and I lied to my parents for a while about what was happening I was acting like I was at work but I was going to this studio to like make songs and figure out what I wanted to do there and then it got to the point where I was like I'm just gonna tell them that I've done it because I just don't want to be there anymore obviously they were so scared for me at the beginning they were like what are you doing okay I'm like trying to be in music that's just not going to work and they weren't being pessimistic they were actually being probably more you know realistic about the situation but in this studio funnily enough I would be there writing little songs and melodies and I ended up writing this song called What About Us which went to the Saturdays it was pitched by a guy called Rodney who's now my manager and that song went to number one and that happened so quickly probably in the space of four or five months that's crazy me being in the studio I had a number one record and then I was like I left my job and I'm good with it and my parents were like okay yeah but I know how rare that is like I don't want to advocate leaving your job or whatever but I definitely think it was just something i was passionate about and you also like i don't think and i call your parents naysayers in the loveliest way like i don't think naysayers are a bad thing because they will if if you crack after the first person who says this is a bad idea it's not a secure job yeah you're you're not going to be able to last the industry like people who tell you you can't do something whether out of love or out of hate like out of spite yeah it is always a good weather test in terms of like is this actually what I want to do if everyone told me I'd be bad at this would I still want to do it definitely if I wasn't the most successful would I still want to do it if your answer is still yes brilliant 100 % you have to live and breathe it despite you know the negative you might hear and even more so for me I use that as extreme motivation because if anyone tells me I can't do something I get so angry even if I know I actually can't do it like bowling I used to be really shit at bowling people used to make fun of me all the time I now get strikes non-stop don't play with me I am that kind of person where I love when people tell me I can't do something and I'll never forget my mum and dad sat me down I was at the side of Streatham Common actually where I used to I live in Streatham and like they sat me down one summer's day and they were like what's going on with your life this is just before I got that number one in that period when I was just at the studio they didn't know what I was doing and they were like Cam you used to go and get a job you used to go and get another job even Sainsbury's go to work at Sainsbury's or like just go back to Sainsbury's I was like no I'm not doing it I'm not doing it and I remember that conversation like it was yesterday like like a script and I love them for it they were just being parents but that conversation motivates me through my life and it's why I work so hard I think I'm just constantly trying to prove something to them even though they absolutely do not need or ask that from me and it's just a weird voice in the back of my head telling me I can't do it that makes me want to do it even more so talk to me about that first few months when essentially like you were in the studio you were writing music obviously you had you went to theater school you had a bit of a background in music but it wasn't what you were doing you know between that time kind of on the every day what like how did you build up your aptitude for writing songs for generally kind of like how did you basically get to the point where you suddenly had a number one I know I definitely feel like it was a talent that I had that I didn't realize I even had because I loved music I didn't realize how much I loved making songs like I loved Shakespeare I did English literature at school and I was obsessed with like sonnets and soliloquies and how he was doing all this all this stuff but partnered with my love for music I didn't realize what a song actually was to kind of bring the literature side of it to the music side which is essentially what we're doing we're like modern day Shakespeare's I guess kind of but I just knew how fun it was it was so much fun like this idea comes out from your brain you're in a room with some people who are like yeah yeah everyone's so supportive and you're on a piano tinkering it's just fun like that could not be the more fun experience to be in the studio you never know what's going to happen you never know what's going to come out and you're just making stuff and I was addicted to being in the studio even now like 3am I will be in I was in the studio last night so I got bags under my eyes probably can't see but I was literally in the studio doing absolutely rubbish I don't know what I was doing in there but it's just a beautiful feeling to make music and that is all I can say and I think that's what's driven me all these years I wake up every day excited to get to music and make stuff and it's addictive and then even more addictive is the feeling when you know you made a hit like I cannot express it's like get it out get it out get it out it's like it is beautiful and you're in a room like it's so funny I was making some stuff for Kylie Minogue the other day actually and we made this song for her which is just the most ridiculous thing like we messaged her after like Kylie you're gonna love this and she's gonna come and finish it with us but I mean it's just like it's like a drug with that though yeah I want to know how it felt when you essentially realized that you had this number one hit like it you knew the Saturdays were taking it up and then you could see it rising through the charts like what did that feel like it's do you know what the maddest thing is when you you always know when you have a hit when you hear it in Sainsbury's or when you like hear it on EastEnders those are like the two things where I'm like, yeah.

20:28Or like you're driving up to a red light and there's like a white van man next to you and he's blasting the song out of Capitol on the radio. I've had that happen so many times. And like, it's this crazy feeling that they have no idea it's you. There's been a couple of times when I've been in an Uber actually and like a song I've written is played. I think that actually happened with What About Us actually. I remember being in the taxi, it was playing and I was like, I wrote this. And the guy was like, okay, like shush kind of thing. but like you're just so it's like a it's just the craziest feeling it's the weirdest feeling and the craziest feeling and I love it I love that you're like this kind of hidden person making this like music but I equally know that there has come a point for me now I feel like where that's happened so many times that I kind of want that for myself and I've always wanted to be an artist but I went in through this songwriting route mainly because of my job situation and yeah it's just like an addictive thing that i want for myself now as well no i can totally imagine and there's a thing about like there's the benefits of being behind the scenes in that you get you know the success and like the creds and all of that without necessarily the downside which is you know what fame brings people yeah um which can be like really tough things in terms of like the public eye all of these different things but there is also the fact that you wrote that song and you want people to know that you wrote that song and you deserve people to know that you I don't care what anyone says about being a songwriter and being happy to be in the shadows.

21:56You do want people to know. Of course you do. Everyone wants the glory. Everyone wants the credit. And that's a human, human emotion that I think we all need and want. You've worked really hard on something. So it's nice, obviously, also to get awards and things like that, which I've had a lot of. I've had an Ivan Avello, which I got for Outstanding Song Collection, which is kind of like getting an Ivan Avello for your career, essentially. I think Sting has one and Elton John. Unbelievable. unreal that I have one um but I think you do definitely sometimes have other burning passions and desires to want to fulfill for yourself absolutely and at this point you've just had a number one hit did you feel like pressure to create another oh my gosh yeah because as soon as you get a number one it's kind of over it's like yeah announce it and then you're like you're done essentially you might not have one again and I was like I'm getting loads more of those I don't know what anyone says.

22:46I really like that feeling. No, literally. Either that or I'm sipping people's drinks. Yeah, even that or that. It's one of two options. Literally. But I was like, I want to have this every year. And I remember speaking to my management about it. And they are so encouraging of things like that. They're like, right, let's get one every year. You're going to do all this work. We're going to work hard. We're going to put you in these sessions. We're going to, you need to connect. You need to network. And I didn't want to be known as this one hit wonder as well, which can happen a lot. And so I hustled so hard.

23:13I'm so unafraid to embarrass myself. Even now, I DM people, sometimes don't get responses. I don't mind. I think it's such a good trait. You just can't care. Like, you shouldn't care. I mean, you should never have that much of an ego where you're unafraid to try and reach out to someone. Like, you're just messaging them and saying hi at the end of the day and I love your shit and why don't we collab? If they don't message back, it's fine. I feel like, as you said, if you don't try, then you're definitely not going to get a chance. you might as well try I think you stop creating opportunities for yourself you do there's a beautiful part of the come up that you essentially you're continuously creating opportunities for yourself because you don't think you're too big for them whereas when you lose that you're you stop putting yourself in position to like make luck yeah which is just not the place you want to be like that's how you stay stagnant I think about at least probably 80 percent of the things that have happened in my career that have gone really well have been from me probably embarrassing myself and reaching out to someone on a serious note I could be at an awards ceremony I will go up to I went up to Paul McCartney the other day literally and was like I was sitting chatting with him there's a picture on my Instagram I was literally and he knew who I was I didn't know he knew who I was but Sir Paul McCartney was like oh hi and we were just talking if I didn't do that you know and you just never know what could happen and that feeling is so scary to me of like missing an opportunity like that for me okay like for example in a studio setting right I will go in to a session and I'm probably only expected to write one song I will come out 100 % with at least five songs because statistically I'm a mathematician I just believe the more I do the more opportunity I have right but then I always have this thing where before I leave I always want to make one more song and everyone's like oh my god come on for fuck's sake we just want to go home like and I'm like no no no just one more idea and I'll go to the piano and whatever and that last thing I cannot tell you how many times has been the hit Like, in my career, it's always the last song.

25:13It was the last song with Jess Glynn, I'll Be There, went to number one. It was the last song with Solo, Clean Bandit, went to number one. It's always a thing with me. So I just have this thing of, no, no, no, no, no, there could just be this one more thing that you could do or try or speak to the person you could speak to. And it's like an addiction for me to always want to do that. Yeah. And I think what you said there about, like, it's such a risk not to do it, I think is so important. because essentially you flip the fact that there's a risk of embarrassing yourself to the fact that the bigger risk is not seeing success that you would otherwise have seen if you just got over your own ego definitely and I think that's really important because I think we think of risk as associated with doing more and actually risk is more associated with doing less shooting your shot actually for me probably is the most important part of being successful I think both in work and in love like I shot my shot with my husband I slid into the dms I did I love that babe I slid right in but there's a way of sliding in to talk to a guy that is so chill like I said congratulations and he was getting a plaque and I kind of had my eye on him for a little while actually I thought he was really cute but I was like oh but this is the thing when you're a hard-working woman and you're successful it's very hard to meet guys everyone knows this right so it was literally me being at home most days on my own like crying about the fact that I was still single and so lonely and stuff and like this little spinster in the studio never me and a guy and so when I saw him I was like yeah let me just message him so I said congratulations and he came right back and he's like thanks you're amazing too want to get married literally want to get married and then then lockdown happened and we were just talking non-stop non-stop having dates just before lockdown and then I just wanted him to stay at my house during lockdown because I didn't want to be on my own and I'd really love spending time with him so seven months in lockdown is like 10 years obviously and then he proposed love literally and that is how it happened all from a dm and we always say now like if i didn't dm him we wouldn't have a baby we'd have a happy marriage i love that so i just think i just believe in shooting your shot in all ways i really do i stand by it so firmly because it's just if you don't reach for it you're never gonna get it no 100 like yeah as in it's a cliche but you do miss 100 of the shots you don't take 100 it's a cliche cliche for a reason it's true and this is from pure interest point of view from my side with the songwriter thing how does it actually work like what's the mechanics do you write a song and then you approach the arctic okay it can happen in so many different ways okay it can happen where you're you're approached by the label so they'll be like oh we're writing with you know we're doing rihanna's new album who would be good for this maybe camille maybe this person they'll get a bunch of people together then it can be where you might have spoken to the artist and the artist might know you and just be like like Jess Kim was at my house the other day she's at cam can we just do some sessions like that can happen or it can be from networking or it can be from a producer hitting you up and saying I need a songwriter to come and write this thing so it's a very weird hybrid of what could it you kind of don't know how did it happen the first time with the Saturdays that was literally a pitch so a pitch used to be the most common way I feel like it's kind of a dying art now pitching if I'm honest but I just wanted to pitch this song to the Saturdays because I thought it sounded like it could be for them I didn't know it's gonna end up with them I didn't know it's gonna end up with Sean Paul being on the record I had no idea literally I was just like this song sounds really cool I just thought this sounds really cool and I thought Rochelle can sing that bit because she's got some color and some flavor that's that was it like it was nothing as as it was didn't go any deeper than that for me and then it just so happened that Rodney Williams who's my manager he knew someone at polydor which is the record label they were signed at and he pitched it to them an amazing guy called jordan jay who's a good friend of mine amazing a &r he was there a &r at the time and he played it to them and said yeah they love it they want to record it that was how it happened and that can happen a lot of time with pitches i have a lot of a &r guys on my on my iMessage and i'll my form of pitching now is probably like i'll send them a demo i'll make something i'll be like voice though no literally no i literally send weird voice notes I'll be like

29:26what do you think of that babe what do you think of that and they'll be like and the thing is one thing I do love though people are unafraid to tell me no well they have to it's like it's everyone's like everyone's jobs on the line 100 % yeah like I like when people are like not that one but what about this one and I'll keep sending ideas or sometimes I get distracted and I forget but literally do you know what though I feel like the fact that you're fine with that is such a big part of being successful. I think being able to handle rejection is key. That and shooting your shot. Two top tips. And they go hand in hand as well.

30:02They go hand in hand. Like now if someone doesn't like my song, I'm like, all right. Sure. I really, we don't mind. I've got so many things to do anyway that I've just forgotten what you said. And I do think that like with the exposure therapy thing, it's stopped. Like when we become adults, it's kind of the first time. or like I always talk about going into a new job and receiving criticism yeah it's the first time like your friends aren't going to critique you that openly hopefully if you've got good friends as in sometimes they will let's say you're acting a bit wild or whatever it might be but they're not going to be like oh this isn't good or like this wasn't on time or like you know you couldn't do better than that but they're not going to be saying that to you every day they're not yeah exactly and like you have to go out and find it because like it is a bit of an like it takes some time it's an adjustment to go into a job and basically start being rejected when actually you aren't good at receiving criticism you have to train yourself to be good at receiving criticism you can't just expect to be able to be good at that because it's not something that we've been exposed to in the same way 100 and funnily enough i think that becomes more important as you become more successful because now i feel like having had a lot of hits i feel like people might be more afraid to tell me if something isn't their fave and I love when people now are like oh not that one or can we have this one or my management will just literally probably sometimes not respond I love that about them like they're so busy with all our stuff but if I send them a song that's a bit dry I probably won't hear back if I send them a song that's really good they'll be like this is amazing like one of my managers will send like gifts of like nuclear explosions like you think something's really good it's really funny but then otherwise it's just silence yeah And I love that.

31:37I think that's their way of kind of being like, yeah, a really good place to learn that is uni, actually, where you're doing sometimes really stupid projects with people that you really don't want to work on this project with. And it literally affects your university grade. Like, I remember some seminars and dissertation stuff I was doing with a group of people. And I'm like, what is going on here? Like, I was the only one willing to work. And some people went, things like that are such good experience for like, as you're saying, learning to take on criticism. And equally, if someone now tells me something about myself, like, funnily enough, this is a really funny story I had a really interesting conversation with a massive this guy's a massive producer he has a reputation for sometimes being difficult I won't say who it is but I tend to work with him because I know he's going to make me grow because he will always want more from me he'll never be satisfied he'll always be really picky and we ended up having a bit of like an argument in the session at the end of it we ended up having this really deep conversation where he was telling me things I didn't know about myself.

32:34And like, he said, sometimes in sessions, I can be a bit like thinking that I'm the only one making the song. And he was like, sometimes I feel like, you know, when I go into a session with you, it's Camille's world and Camille's room. And I was like, wow, is that how you feel? I didn't know that. And I didn't even know I was coming across like that. And it's just because I know how I am in a session. I can be very like, I've got all these ideas. One thing I do have is a lot of ideas. It's a gift and a curse, but it can mean, yes, I can get hits but it can mean oh my god I need to get this song out right now because the ideas come in they have to come out that's how it is with songwriting it's really weird but sometimes I'm not realizing maybe that I can overshadow or overpower and it was nice for him to tell me that and I cried actually because it was just a really nice moment where he was telling me about myself and he's like no you need to fix that because and I told him loads of things about himself obviously but like it was just a beautiful moment where we both just were vulnerable and allowed each other to criticize each other and I'm so glad he did that yeah no I think that's really powerful and I think it says a lot about you that you see that as such a positive thing because I completely agree that it is and objectively if you looked at someone else in that situation you'd probably be like that's what they need to get to the next stage of their career to be a better person to work with to be a better person to be in a studio with whatever it might be and you have to reframe your mind away from criticism and that's not to say that you should listen to all criticism because trust me especially with social media like you shouldn't you need to know who to listen to yeah But the more you receive criticism and feedback, the more you start to be able to differentiate because you're good at it.

34:04You don't just see everything as opposition. And I feel like that's really, really valuable and very transferable across all industries. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to Upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com. Post a job for free and get started today.

34:47I want to talk about the move into a solo career. oh the most stressful era of my life so talk to me about that god it's so hard I mean I wanted to be an artist from the get-go so that's the main thing if I it's not something that's just come along on this journey it's something that I wanted to do but was told actually that I didn't look right that there weren't any black girls in the UK that were trying to be singers this was about what five six seven years ago now and that it just wouldn't work so that's why I kind of followed the songwriting route I did want to be an artist but it's something that hasn't gone away it's something that will never go away I think I'll still be here wanting to be nice when I'm 60 you you will I will I will still be an artist when I'm 60 but I think it's just a passion I have and I think I'm the happiest when I know I'm making music for others and making music for myself if I wasn't making music for myself it would be such an unhappy place for me to exist um and I see it kind of like when Michael Jordan wanted to go into baseball and everyone was like what the hell are you doing like it's just gross I think it's gross you naturally come to a point where okay this is going great I want more for myself and I know I can create music for myself like I've written and produced a whole album K1 which came out last year I had Niall Rogers on my song like and he even told me after he made Cuffet for Beyonce that I am just as wonderful as her and he said you should keep going with this this is incredible and keep making music and I remember being in Abbey Road and Nile Rodgers was playing guitar I was on the laptop a black woman which is so unheard of because it's usually a bunch of men making music you don't see women producing music or engineering so I think for me it's moments like that that have made me go this is what I want I want more of that I want to grow I want to be like Pharrell Pharrell is like my inspiration always and he's just always been so prolific and I just even Calvin Harris the way that like you just know when he drops something it could be in 10 years time it's going to be sick like you just wait on it that's the kind of artist I want to be I don't want to be like necessarily someone who's jumping around on stage every single second I kind of want to be more of like an artist that you just know when I drop something we need to go and stream that immediately like that's my vibe so I just feel like I'm just going with the flow like to have already had now a Radio 1 song of the week which happened what last week on my current song headline which a lot of major record label artists aren't getting and I'm an independent artist having done that on my own to get radio one is like the pinnacle of like oh my god you've got a radio one playlist or you've got radio one like track of the week I'm just so proud of myself that I'm having these milestones so it's kind of just showing me okay there's something here let me keep going of course there is and I think that like it's so clear that you've built yourself such like a wide base for a successful career like wherever you go within music but I do feel like there's something so powerful to be said for the fact that like you've been so successful already you've won all of these awards you've had all of these hits and you want to get to the place that you want to get to doing the thing you want to do yeah and you are not afraid to be like I'm kind of a beginner again and of course you're not because of course you're actually like you've still got every accolade you've always got but But people get, like, as we've said, people get embarrassed when they've been successful that having to start from square one in something else will, like, take away from that image rather than literally being like, like, you've done so well already at this solo career.

38:18Of course it is. So I will not, like, bullshit anyone. I cry so much about it because, honestly, 100, you just said it's so, so poignant, actually. It's definitely that feeling of, like, you're exposed now after having all this success. Like, I definitely feel like, are people looking at how many streams I have? other people looking at if this is doing well this isn't trying or if this is trying or whatever that definitely is something that affects me every single day of course and I think that like and I know this isn't comparable at all and everything but like I I've always thought this about the podcast like when I like I had a you know like had like a great social following like done a great career like got my companies all of this I wanted to start the podcast and like really wanted to have this yeah at the same time like especially like still now sometimes things will go out and I'm like oh and like people see that I'm at a certain level and they'll see you know like the engagement on it or whatever it might be but at the same time nothing happens until you step out of your comfort zone and you stop being embarrassed about actually getting where you want to get to like no one who's done incredible things didn't have a moment where they were like oh this is kind of embarrassing I know and I hate you know it's really horrible though that now we have this engagement thing I hate that word so much with all my whole heart I hate the word engagement because I just think it's just not a true reflection of life and of art.

39:35I really don't. Like what you do is so incredible. And I hate that you have that also where you're literally shining a light on others, doing an amazing thing. And what if a video doesn't get a crazy amount of views or comments? Like I hate that we have that. But that's why you need to like, I've spent so much time retraining myself to be like, I'm going to put this out every week, no matter whether it flops, no matter whether it does well. I love it. I believe it is good content. And don't get me wrong. like I can improve it and I can improve the conversations and I can improve my interview style like whatever it might be but if ever I stop anything just because I put something out and the whole world didn't fucking love it then I am doing like the wrong thing it takes a really strong person to do that like you're you're so strong that you have that attitude and that's again so inspiring because you're a very inspiring person babe I just feel like it's hard to it's hard to always have that and it's very very difficult I think I can understand why a lot of us including me cry most days because you do feel really embarrassed and that's not something that I think never goes away I think it's because you we care isn't it so it's like but do you know what's so funny is you probably would have said the same around the time that you were sending dms to people like Sam Smith and they weren't responding and now you're like oh funny part of the story like you're gonna look back at this and be like do you know what I had to put myself in a position where I was like oh fuck are people looking at the streams and people looking at this like I always think about like I'm like I've been studying a new company at the moment and I've literally been like oh god like I've had a few that have been doing really well and like like why put myself in the position where I could fuck that up or I could like harm my you know my personal brand of like having done this or like whatever it might be in a completely new space all of that and I'm like I'm fucking two years old like I literally feel like a baby so it's like it's like why yeah why do that but also I would have thought that about the podcast I would have thought that about Tala because that wasn't the first thing I started I would have thought that about my socials I would have thought like do you know what I mean like there's always a I so strongly believe and like I would I'll I would bet you a huge amount of money that you will look back on this time and be like yeah that was fucking hard but it was hard because I had to go through hard things to get to where I want to get to and it's just another one of those dming Sam Smith moments 100 % you're so right I definitely know I think it does help when you start to see little successful milestones along the way that does give you a sign I think I'm getting signs now where people are stuck because obviously as a songwriter people like to box you in and not see you as an artist and I think what the same things happen to Sia, Victoria Monet and Julian Michaels all these incredible people who were prolific songwriters and people just wanted to keep them there and not allow them to do the artist thing but I think when it comes to online exposure of what we're trying to do I always kind of think about things like Michael Jackson wasn't looking at Stevie Wonder when he was making music he was just doing it because back then they didn't have all this stupid engagement stuff to worry about they were just you were just being prolific in what you wanted to do and just working towards something and I think it's actually such a hindrance to our creation a lot of the time that we have to worry about this thing like of course you want to know that it's like a good barometer of what you're doing yes that people are reacting to something but what I try and do now so much is like if I have to post if I do something I post and then I dip and then I'm gone yeah I'm gone I completely agree and also like in what world say in business say in like whatever you're doing the metric that you look at to see whether it's successful would never just be one thing right like you would which makes it kind of ridiculous that even in something like music you're looking at engagement as the best statistic like in what world like it's so funny because when I talk about this it's like the majority of people who I meet in real life the podcast is always what they bring up and then I'm like well sometimes I don't like sometimes I need you guys but actually at the same time like it's not the only metric social media is built for one thing and one thing only like it's built for saving sometimes sharing it's not built for quietly listening and enjoying and having an emotional moment listening to your music or dancing around listening to your music or having a walk where you really need something listening to a podcast like whatever it might be yeah it's not built for that yeah and so it shouldn't be measured in that it shouldn't i think the only thing though that i do understand about it because one thing i'm really good at is understanding the trends of like pop culture right and I definitely think for example whenever I was moaning about even streaming platforms or people moaning about music on TikTok and how that you know I have trying to have this viral moment on TikTok and I see these things as evolution of pop culture and how our industry is evolving and changing and you have to be on top of that that's part of my job yeah it's part of my job to understand it to be part of it to live and breathe it it's my job to watch Love Island that's part of my job because not only amazing songs on there but just seeing how people are speaking to one another how relationships are formed how they're broken that is literally stuff I write about in songs every day and I feel like for me understanding social media has been such a hard process with music but it's got to the point where now I understand the thing now I take from it is that people want you to be very very front-facing in all industries that's definitely something that we have to take on board whether you like it or not as a musician now you need to be a front-facing person you can't be this artist that's hidden in the shadows and just putting out music and expecting everyone to buy into you because more and more now people want to know who you are and that's whether you're a brand look at Ryanair on TikTok like they're doing more now for themselves as a brand by being so laughable and laughing at themselves than they ever had probably in the last 20 years and that's what people now want to be part of what they're doing as a brand and as they're humanizing themselves and I think that's definitely something I think that musicians all industries need to take on board so as much as I sit and moan about it I'm also understanding of the fact that I need to be front-facing I don't need to necessarily care about the engagement on that though but I need to understand that being an artist now means much more than it did 10 years ago and building a personal brand you have to meaning that when people think of a songwriter they think of you like all of that you have to otherwise it's not going to work yeah labels literally will not sign artists now unless they have a following that's That's how it is.

45:54And I do think there's an important part of that where like we really love to complain about changes in industries. And really the people who benefit from changes in industries are not the ones complaining. Like I do think there's like a it's really like for example every time like the performance marketing algorithm changes say like on meta ads. I know. It's like if you spend that time complaining actually looking at how the algorithms change and what type of content you need to put in it now. That's true. And like all of that. Like shit changes. I know. Like the people who were at the forefront of like, say like dot com or like, you know, AI, like whatever it might be.

46:26Yeah. With the people who were not complaining. 100%. And like, obviously, there's a separate part of that in terms of like ethics of like whatever it might be. Yeah. But I do also think that like we have a tendency to scapegoat industries changing rather than being like, cool, every industry we've ever seen has changed. And that's why literally we're in the situation we are now rather than living in the London of like 200 years ago. Oh, definitely. I think a lot of it is fear, though. And a lot of it is we're all scared. And everyone, I'm sure, is super scared of change and how hard it is because it feels like you've just learned how to do something and suddenly you've got to, like, relearn the whole thing.

47:01But I definitely am understanding of, like, as you're saying, it's part of our job. Like, if you want this also, you've got to fucking do it. That's one thing that my parents definitely always spoke to me about was you have to just work harder what you're doing. And that's it, especially as a black woman. I was, as a young girl, I was just taught that we have to work twice, three times four times as hard as our counterparts that's just how I was brought up so I don't know I it's very hard and I will cry and there are tears often my husband is always wiping my tears I'm always face-timing my sister most mornings we have like a scheduled cry once a week we do it's really good you should try it just schedule it in just as important it's just as important as you having a cry about or doing you know doing this for your business babe you need to schedule a cry yeah how are you actually feeling this week and what is on your mind and it's like self-therapy and i do it a lot with my sister actually we just moan about shit and sometimes cry no i love that and then it's gone and then you're on to the next on to the next i want to speak briefly before we end about the journey you've had since having your son Oh, my baby.

48:05My baby. Don't, I will literally cry. Can we not? I love him so much. Oh my God, he's amazing. Wow. Okay, everyone tells you having a baby is amazing. Life's going to change. But it really is the best shit ever. Don't. It is. No, it fucking is. And now I'm like, okay, that's what they were talking about. Those annoying parents always telling me, when you're pregnant, everyone wants to tell you all this rubbish, don't they? but it's actually true he is the best thing that's apart from my husband I love you Tommy he's the best thing that's ever happened to me and what he has done has provided me with this bubble where I just as I keep saying I don't give a fuck anymore I just don't give a fuck because he's so important to me yeah and I have so much to think about with him that it's put everything into a much more rational place for the love of God thank you because I was so irrational before delulu delusional about everything I would moan about everything I would overthink everything put myself into anxiety and depression I've suffered from depression so much in my life and I haven't had depression since because nothing is as important as me just thinking about these moments with him it just changes you as a person and I've been so much more motivated in business in what I'm doing in my life I'm so driven like all I think about is I need to earn this I need to do this I've got to get this by in six months time I'm here I'm moaning my managers even more now poor things always texting them ones over there telling the same thing now always texting this hasn't been done can we do this by tomorrow I want to have this song like by this afternoon and I need to do this I want to sign this artist because I want to sign artists now as well and I want to die I just want an empire I want to write books I want to make films like I'm so excited and I think that's all due to the fact I now have a son 100 % that's so beautiful and I feel like that's a I don't know like it's so wonderful to like hear you talk about that and I want to talk briefly about the flip side it recently we talked on the podcast about how Lily Allen had said that her having a childhood you know and saying her kids basically cost her a music career which I think that it sounds controversial but also in a world where we set women up so to the point that once they have a kid we just kind of forget about them and we're like oh you go over there and like don't even think about working or if you do work like you've got to be expected to work as if you don't have kids and expected to have kids if you don't work and all of that how have you found like the development of your career and how people see you and how you're treated and all of that it's definitely a shift and I definitely do naturally feel myself having to prove that I can still do this that's definitely I don't know if anyone's asking me to do that though but it's definitely something I'm doing subconsciously and I think it's because I have always heard those voices from people like oh you're having a baby oh you're gonna go and take time out oh all right bye that's literally what people do and I think they're doing it in a loving way I'm not saying everyone's been horrible but everyone is expecting you to just take like 100 years maternity leave or something and never come back to work and like I know in all industries there are a lot of women who are like I can do both what the hell like didn't Beyonce teach us okay she didn't she teach us anything like even Riri even just seeing all these people killing it and funnily enough actually I looked at Perry funnily enough from Little Mix because she had her baby and went on tour with the baby with the baby and she said to me when I was pregnant she said Cam don't let anyone tell you that you can't if you want to do it that is you don't have to do that but if you want to still work and still be yourself and all these things make you happy you can do them and I remember being pregnant actually going into hospital to have my baby and I was texting my manager like what we're doing next week and not because I'm obviously a crazy bitch but because I just love music that's a love for me right so it's a hard thing when your job is your love because it's very hard to kind of put it down but at the same time I feel like women should never be made to do anything they don't want to do whether that's if you want to stay at home you should be able to stay at home if you want to work you should be able to go and work as long as you're happy just being a happy mother and I was very happy last year making my album and having my baby I made a song about him called the son on the album which is just the most incredible beautiful song and I was pregnant when I was working with Nile Rodgers for example like he didn't know but I was full prego and I did a little fart in the studio actually a pregnancy fart just to prove to you that's how pregnant I was I was breastfeeding in podcasts I would do like I was bringing my breast pumps to the studio I was just living my life as a woman and it's so funny because like I think that people would be so surprised that like we have models on set all the time who are breastfeeding and who are sent who are going into the trailer and pumping or like we have a photographer at Tala who we work with all the time and she's still breastfeeding and she's just just we just have a little pump break and like actually when you start to make workplaces better for people with children like there's a reason it's probably because all of our ceos and head office like have children and women like who have children so they understand the caregiving role yeah our brains are exactly the same if anything a pregnant woman is probably even more powerful she i promise you this a pregnant woman with all the thoughts she's going through is going to be even more driven and even more like I'm going to kill this shit right now because I've got more on the line I feel like making a workplace more I don't know encouraging of that and making that environment even safer and more comfortable for pregnant women I actually think should be the way if they want that to be how they want it to be because I think you're going to get the best out of women women are so powerful and even more powerful when they start to like create life like you just take on this like superhero energy it's really really weird I've seen myself do things that I never thought I could do I can clean my kitchen probably about five minutes because I only have five minutes to do it before he's going to crawl over to me and want me to pick him up so I've got to quickly cook clean emails I'm doing everything yeah you just become a superhero and I feel like that is very much what you are and what you were before as well I think there's like this real culture of hating work and like that's so fair enough and obviously it's a hugely privileged position to be in a place where you love your work yeah but i also love the fact that you've come on here and said how like yes it's hard like of course it's still fucking hard but how much you love it and like embracing how wonderful that is and how you don't need people to respect you just because you have a hard time you also like have built a life that you fucking love you love the music you want to do it yeah and like i think that is very inspiring because i do think we often kind of only get inspired by like struggle and the point where people are like and I want to like you know I can't stand every day oh 100 % and like I'm not saying it's not hard but actually having you embrace that and be like oh god I've got the best fucking job in the world like it's so incredible thank you like I I love my job but best believe if I wasn't doing this I would still be successful and I want that for everyone like that feeling that you have I know you know what I mean it's like a burning fire to I don't want to do this like that is what makes someone have the bones to be a successful person and it never goes away and I feel like even after having what I've had eight number ones and all these awards and two Grammys and all this stuff I'm like this is incredible but I still want more it's just the start and I look to that feeling to never die for me because I think that is what makes you an incredible incredible force whether it's in business in life and anything I think you should just never want to stop yeah and allow that thing to come out of you and really really make you super super successful yeah no I think that's incredibly important and before we end could you tell me the best piece of advice you've ever been given oh that's a really really good one I actually think funny enough it sounds negative but it's a really it's put me in a really humble position actually that you're only as good as your last hit and I think that actually extends to all areas and all industries you're only as good as the last thing you did and that will always help you to be in a place where you can do more you should never live on the fact that you've done this thing and that's it and you're the shit like that's done babe what's next what is next so I think you're only as good as your last hit for me that has lived in my bones and I always always think that the minute a song comes out and it does well I'm thinking about the next one yeah and I also think like a huge superpower is knowing when you need that and knowing when you need the other side and like being able to be like yes like go go go and being able to like give yourself some real tough love being like definitely you know what you haven't been reaching your goals yeah you haven't been getting to where you want to be yeah and you do need to push harder otherwise everyone's gonna forget that you even exist exactly it's also a talent to know like the other side when you need to be like cool chill the fuck out yeah okay I've always agreed with that actually because rest is so important and I get writer's block quite a lot which I think a lot of us can get those creativity blocks where you're just like I cannot think of anything I usually then just straight away get delivery some kind of alcohol maybe chill my mind out just break it out just break it up like i think that's also equally as important but if you're anything like me and you're always thinking about work it will still be there with you it's like a little friend that lives with you isn't it the work bug but you just gotta know how to keep it at bay but also you've got to know how to feed it as well for sure yeah oh well that's the perfect place to end thank you so much this has been amazing thank you for having me thank you for having me oh not at all i feel like i'm gonna listen to this episode every time I need like a come on come on especially the girls out there you got this okay I don't let anyone tell you otherwise you've got this keep going keep pushing we got it we're gonna do this thanks for having me that's my new morning alarm

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