Ep. 117 How To Turn Your Idea Into Millions With Jade Holland Cooper

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1:40What is up and welcome to Working Hard Hardly Working. Today I'm joined by Jade Holland Cooper. She is a powerhouse in British fashion. She founded Holland Cooper in 2008 with the ambition to bring luxury British heritage to a modern audience. And what began as a small collection of tailored tweed clothing that she sold on a stand at horse shows has grown into a global brand that now turns over 40 million a year. I wanted this episode to be a deep dive into her journey, how she went from country fairs to building an empire, the key inflection points, and what it is about her that's given her such a mindset for success and viral product creation.

2:13If you're interested in entrepreneurship, brand building, and the very real behind the scenes of having a business that big, this episode is definitely for you. before we get into the podcast if you could just go and rate this on whichever podcast app you are listening to this on it makes a huge difference to the podcast and the types of incredible conversations we're able to have the types of guests we're able to get on so no it's probably something you don't think about but if you could just go rate it now or follow it it makes a huge difference. Thank you so much.

2:49Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. I have been looking forward to this episode in particular for so long. I remember your name popping up when we were talking about episode planning and I was like, yes. Like I love, I love the way that you build your business online and I love consuming that content. And yeah, just really excited for this conversation. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I've been so excited to be on it and nervous because I've not really done anything like this before. Amazingly, I think this is my first one. Well, the best one. Yeah, exactly. That is what they say.

3:22I want to go straight into talking about your early life. I find that gives us a good background of finding out kind of who you are. Could you tell us a little bit about what young Jade was like? I've heard a story about you having an egg business? Was it age nine? Yes, that is right. So as a child, I mean, I had a lovely childhood. I really did. It was a very, I was allowed to be a child, I think for a long time. I was very shy. I love being outside. I was very lucky to grow up on a farm. So I had a very free childhood. And that involved ponies and chickens and dogs and, you know living in my job and just running around being free and I'm looking back on that I'm incredibly grateful to have had that time and I loved the horses we were lucky to have to have ponies from a young age and I think that definitely taught me a lot of things you know my parents said you can have a pony but you'll be doing it all and from an early age that's what I was doing you know before school and after school and everything in between and uh yeah I had chickens I loved my chickens and I did start an egg business when I as you say when I was nine and that just consisted of taking the eggs to school flogging them to whoever would buy them and that that was essentially the start of I suppose my first business and I found when I went home last year, my little notebook, which was effectively my first kind of profit and loss, where I'd written down, you know, bought a bucket and bought a feeder and, you know, sold this many eggs.

5:02And it was lovely to look back on that. And I didn't, you know, I didn't think that much of it at the time, I don't think. But looking back, I suppose that was the start of the seed of trading. Yeah. And did you, from that point on, because obviously there's a big gap between both nine and, you know, coming into adulthood and also a big gap between an egg business and the enormous business you have now. Did you know from that point onwards that kind of you were an entrepreneurial person or were there different views of success that you had in your head in terms of, you know, I'm going to, I don't know, leave school and go to university or I'm going to leave school and do this or?

5:38I think in a nutshell, no. I really didn't. I felt like I was the only kid at school that didn't know what I wanted to do. And I felt like everyone knew, you know, they wanted to be a doctor, they wanted to be this, they wanted to be that. I didn't know what I wanted to do. I think my version of success at that point was my horses. And I was really vested in that in my own way. And, you know, I was very focused on that and trying to do my best in that area. I think I watched my parents both work very, very hard. And I was obviously absorbing that all the time. You know, I was growing up in that environment and my mum had her own business and my dad had several businesses of his own and they worked very hard and they had a lot of fulfilment out of working hard, making their own money and then being able to do things with that.

6:28And I think, you know, subconsciously I was absorbing that all the time. I loved the farm. By the time I got to the age of 18, I wanted to be, that's what I thought I wanted to do, be a farmer, want to take over the farm. But alongside that, I'd grown up with my mum's fashion business that she ran from home on the farm. And so I did have that creative side that I was kind of onboarding. And I think, you know, by the time it was where are you going to apply to uni? I thought, right, I want to be a farmer. But then do I also want to do the creative? So I applied to the Agricultural College and then London College of Fashion.

7:07I was lucky enough to get a place at both. And at the last minute, I went to the Agricultural College. But I think I was very grateful in a way for making that decision because I wouldn't have seen the gap for what I do now if I'd gone to London. And that's so funny. I think that's a really good point for anyone who's younger and listening to this and really trying to work out what their career path might be. because I think that a lot of people would have looked at the moment where you chose the agricultural college over the fashion college and being like, okay, well now you're going to do that forever and actually you're here now owning a huge fashion business and having been able to build that.

7:42And I think I'm such a big proponent of the fact that you build every step and your first job doesn't need to be your career, your first business doesn't need to be like your forever thing. You can just go step-by-step building skills. Before we come on to talking about Holland Cooper, in an interview in your 15-year campaign your dad mentioned that you were one to always really push yourself outside of your comfort zone where do you think that came from was that a kind of innate ability just to push yourself was it because you know you'd been allowed to really be a child and really kind of embrace yourself at home where do you think that kind of pushing yourself outside of your comfort zone came from it probably was an innate trait that I had that I maybe didn't know that I had.

8:30And I think when you start a business or you get into an industry and you want to be successful, you do have to make sacrifices and you do have to be able to push the limits possibly more than other people. And I think that is probably the barrier that you come up against if you're not able or prepared to do that. And I think both my parents probably did do that. And I think they were very of the mindset that if you've got, if you're doing something, be the best. If you've got, you know, three hours in the day, maximize that to the best of your ability. You know, they always said to me, Jade, you know, you can do whatever it is you want to do if you are prepared to put the work in.

9:12And I think that resonated and that constant reminder of that, I suppose, made me feel like I could do things. And if I was going to do them, I was going to try my absolute best and I was going to push myself to the limit to see what I could achieve, you know, because that is you are your only boundary in that sense. Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. I think that when you start to realise that in order to do things that no one else is doing or very few other people are doing, you have to do things that no one else is doing in terms of work ethic, in terms of how much you're putting into it, in terms of risk, in terms of all of these things.

9:48I think that can both be a really terrifying thing, but also a really empowering thing when you start to realise that actually, yes, of course, there are so many different factors that come into success and so many different areas of luck and privilege and all of this, but actually a huge element of being able to realise, do you know what, actually, if I really lean in on this and I put in more work than I deem possible and more time and more, you know, I've spent all of this time kind of conceptualising this and I take it to people and I trial and error and all of this, it's also quite an empowering thing too, to feel like you're quite in control of somewhat how well things do based on how much you're willing to put into it.

10:27Because I think a lot of what's happened on this podcast in terms of the people that have come on, it's not necessarily that the first thing they did just absolutely hit off. It's not that the first idea they had was the best one. It was truly resilience. Yeah. And I think that's exactly right. You can't, or well, I'd love to know if you can, but I don't think you can build anything without that, you know, without that tenacity, without that obsession. It is an obsession. You are different to other people and that's okay. And, you know, I think that's one of the first learning curves. It's like, that's okay that you are different because you're bringing something to the table that maybe other people don't have and your ability to be able to push forward and, you know, go that extra mile and have that obsessive compulsive desire for growth and everything that goes with that and you know it's not all you know a bed of roses it's not you know it's it's tough it's really tough yeah no absolutely very much vouch for that yeah we're really having one of those weeks it can look like it is all a bed of roses at times and I think perhaps social media you know is an enemy in that in that space sometimes because we're all we're all uh culprits for for making it feel like it is but but you know let me be clear now that that it isn't at all but i think you know there are of course elements where it's amazing and you get that euphoric buzz and there are moments that are really horrible and lonely and difficult and then there's things in the middle that's kind of just okay and and that's all right you know life is never going to be this one happy rainbow.

12:06That's just not realistic for anyone. So I think it's the acceptance that as long as that's kind of balanced and it's not always miserable or always something in the middle, you're getting that group of three. I think you're okay. Yeah. No, I completely stand by that. And let's talk about your time at the agricultural college and moving from then into deciding you wanted to build something of your own. Can you talk to me about that timeline and what your thought processes were within that time? Yeah, so I arrived at the Agriculture College and started my course and quite quickly realised probably that wasn't the route that I wanted to go on.

12:45It was about diversification in agriculture through equestrian and, you know, I was quickly just looking at the P &Ls and the finances that were going on and I was thinking, yeah, this isn't adding up in the way that I want it to. And simultaneously, I was going to events like the country events, Cheltenham races, badminton horse trials, and I couldn't find anything to wear that everyone else wasn't wearing. And I was thinking, wow, there is a white space here because I can't find what I want. And then there must be other of people that are thinking the same so after a year of being there um I actually my law uh teacher there who was brilliant uh said to me do you know what Jade you know you should just go this is not going to be the place for you yeah I think he was thinking this just isn't where you're going to be fulfilled you need to go and and I said to my parents that this is what I'm thinking and And again, a bit like I said in my early years when they were very accepting of that, but they said, you can do this, but you are going to have to do all of this legwork.

13:56And, you know, at the time I was saying, yeah, yeah, no, I will. I had no idea what that meant at all. And I left after a year of being there. And, you know, I had drawn some tweed mini skirts, which was my first product. and there was an out worker that used to work for my mum when she had her clothing business that was still based in Suffolk a lady called Janet who sadly passed away but she I said to her will you make these skirts for me these 15 skirts and I booked a stand at badminton horse trials and I arrived with yeah like 15 or 20 mini skirts on a two meter stand which was tiny I mean you know it was like a loo cubicle with me and a friend who'd also went to the ag college and left and And we stood there and I thought, oh, my God, I've got to make this work now.

14:44This is it. I've got to sell these skirts. And we did sell the skirts. And I had more money to make more skirts. And literally, that's how it went. And I went around the show circuit with a two and a half ton trailer and with the sand in it. And I set up and set down and set up and set down. It's 38 shows, I think, in our first year. It's pretty grueling. It's, you know, you're in the middle of a field. you know, in the pouring rain at night at the Yorkshire show, setting up to be ready at 8am the next day, five days there, then you're driving through the night to go somewhere else. But what it gave me was an amazing understanding of my customer.

15:24How did you start to, I guess, evolve out of the first product and into really working out what your brand was while I was with the customers every day? As I say, that was for me the best product. thing I could have done. And I learned on the job, you know, you are effectively on a market stall, but that for want of a better word, that's what you're doing. You're trading and you're with the customer, you're with the general public. There is no holes barred. People just tell you how it is. And you're standing there with your wares. Especially a certain demographic. They're really happy to be like, oh, yeah, with your wares, basically saying, hey, I think I'm great.

16:03do you agree and you know I as tough as that was at times because it is tough and there are people that don't like it and they tell you they don't like it but I think it's how you take that and what you do with it and I think for me missing a sale was not an option so if I didn't have that product or the product wasn't fitting or I could see there were body shapes it wasn't working on I had to go away and refine that because all that meant was money not in the till so that that made me very commercial because I was with the customer. I wasn't in, you know, a glass office designing for size six runway models, hoping that everyone else can wear it.

16:43I was designing for people en masse and I was presenting it to them myself. So there was nowhere to hide. And actually that was a massive benefit. As you say, I think that becomes harder and harder, you know, in this and age and maybe with the bigger fashion houses where you're just you're not with the customer enough and that's what I try and that's why I go to all the events still because I want to see that and I you know Instagram's another way for me to connect with my customer because as you say that's another way for people to tell you how they feel but for me it was an easy journey you know I wanted the skirt then they wanted you know something to wear with the skirt so it was a waistcoat then it was a jacket then it was a coat then it's you know I wanted as quickly as possible to be wearing everything that I could make.

17:26So I already had that vision. I didn't want to just be skirts. I wanted to be everything. Yeah. As quickly as possible. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving. Go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts. Just the right expert, right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to Upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's U-P-W-O-R-K dot com. Post a job for free and get started today. This podcast is supported by The RealReal.

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19:29That's D-E-E-L dot com slash serious. Yes. I'm really interested about the decision when it was to first move online and how you were able to preserve the brand's magic whilst you not actually being there in someone's ear being like, this is great for this, this and this. I think, you know, I can't actually remember when we first went online, but it was quite early on. I think, look, to be successful in retail, I think you have to own a white space and you have to know what that white space is and you have to be absolutely clear on what that is. And I believe our product does have a really strong DNA, a really strong handwriting.

20:10It's different. It's offering something different. And certainly back then it was offering something totally different to the customer. So it's always nerve wracking when you come from a physical trading space, where as you say, I'm telling you how brilliant the product is and I'm giving you my best sales job to the clinical nature of a website. You detach from the customer in that way. But I think because we owned a white space and because we had that DNA and that point of difference, it wasn't an easy sell, but we were definitely offering the customer something I didn't think they could buy anywhere else.

20:42And that's the key, really. or you've got to be the best of a space that you're owning. But I think we were offering something different and we continue to do so. And I think staying true to your customer and staying true to that DNA and knowing who you want to be as a brand and who you are is the biggest bit of advice I think I can give to anyone wanting to come into this industry is who are you, who do you want to be and what is the white space that you're filling? Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that's especially important in a world of trends and fast moving areas and all of this because it's very easy to run to shiny objects.

21:23And I mean, I've definitely done that before. And I think that actually really knowing more importantly than who is this brand is like, who is this brand not? And what is this brand not? And being able to see something and being like, that's great. Great. And I hope that all of the brands that that fits within their brand capitalise on this fantastically. And I hope they have a great time. But actually, this is not us. And therefore, we don't do this product. Therefore, we don't, you know, capitalise on this trend. And I think that it's very easy because business is hard and because you want to make sure that you are always doing the best for your business.

21:58It's very easy to want to capitalise on every moment that you can. and I think that's been one of my biggest learnings has been okay cool doesn't mean it needs to be everything yeah and you can't you can't be everything and I think again as you say making sure that you know what what your product should be to fit with your DNA and your brand I think is is a big learning curve it is and being true to who you are and you know as you get bigger and the brand gets bigger. There's more voices in your ear. There's more people. And I think I have to be very clear and disciplined about what our product curation should be and what that should look like.

22:42And I like to think we've stayed true to who we are. We don't chase a trend. We're not fast fashion. That isn't what we are. We are about a product that you can wear in 10 years time and hopefully will still be beautiful and classic. And that's okay. We run black rollnecks all year. We run white t-shirts all year. We run jeans all year. We run some products for 10 years. That's okay for us. So I came at this in a different way and I looked at the industry and I thought, right, I'm going to take the general fashion ruling, which is spring, summer launching in January, autumn, winter launching in July, and I'm going to not do that because I'm going to make clothes for when I want to wear them because I think that's what my customer wants as well.

23:28And I remember when I first started doing wholesale, that was quite a shock for people because they're used to that cycle. Especially buying. For anyone who doesn't know, they're used to a wholesale cycle. Well, they'll come into a showroom, they'll see what it is for the next season, they'll place their orders and they want that newness. They want it continuously. And they can have it, but when the customer wants it. Sure. So we're not doing spring, summer in January. We're doing it in April. I know. This is one of the things that I found absolutely crazy as well. It's like you're telling me that winter starts in the beginning of August and you're telling me the spring, summer starts in January.

24:03That's weird because I'm very hot in August and I'm very cold in the beginning of January. And you're probably still cold till the end of March. Right, exactly. So that was unusual, I think. But what it does is it gives longevity to your season and that gives security to your stores and that means that the product has time to breathe so our autumn winter starts on the 1st of September and it ends at the end of March so we're selling coats till the end of March yeah at least and that's okay um and so I came at it in a different way and again it's having the confidence to to look at the industry and say well that's not always the right way for me yeah and that's okay because it can be a bit daunting because you sort of think well, I've just got to do it that way because that's what everyone does.

24:48But again, sometimes don't be afraid to think I'm going to go with my gut instinct. And that, again, is another big learning for me is when you've got things coming at you all the time, I always go with my gut instinct. If it's a maybe, it's definitely a no. Yeah, fact. If I'm having to think, is it right or isn't it? No. I think that's so interesting and really helpful for anyone who's building a business. But I think that's such a good point in sticking to your guns and being very clear and not just being like, okay, just because the large fashion houses do it like this, I have to do it like that in order to be like them.

25:26No, and I think that was one of a big learning, but one of our biggest strengths to do that. Also, to not be afraid of continuity products. You know, a lot of this business's continuity, which means that you bring in a product and you don't change it for eight years. And that's quite frightening in a lot of fashion businesses because it's all about new, must be new, must be new. But what happens then is you end up saying, well, okay, we've got a black roll neck to make it new. Okay, we're putting that one in the sale and then we're making a slightly different one. Same and same again. Why? Why do that?

26:02I know. And it's so funny because I also look at lots of the continuity I love from other brands and I'm so pissed off when that perfect white t-shirt goes because I'm like I've now tried to buy this in a different colour because it's such a nice shape and it's slightly different and it's like a little bit of a different material it's like what's that about guys no so we we we don't do that yeah we we go the other way and we say you know probably 50 60 percent of the range is continuity and I have women that go, oh, I just love that jean. And now I buy it in all the colors you do. And I can always buy it.

26:35I can always buy that roll neck, that shirt, that t-shirt. So we do a base, what we call the essential range really, which is a paint by numbers set of product that then you can build on like a capsule wardrobe. And I want to make it easy for people, not overwhelming, not frightening, easy. You know, this is about a wardrobe working hard for you and working hard for your lifestyle. This isn't about very difficult products. You've got to have a degree to piece together and then in six months time, you're not going to wear it because it's not in fashion. That's not what we're about. We're about making life easy in that department.

27:10And I think that's, again, why it's been so successful. And when women find us, they think it's great because actually that, you know, roll neck and that pair of jeans can go with 15 other things. Brilliant. Easy care. Thinking about everything being dry, clean only in terms of shirts. It's not realistic for a lot of people. And that was not realistic for me. And I didn't want to start bringing out essential ranges that needed really specific looking after because who has time to do all of those things? Again, not realistic. So we're trying to build product that is easy, does work hard, does do day to night, does do multiple different things for you.

27:51Again, that's what our customer certainly is looking for. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that shows the real power of knowing your customer and knowing your brand. And talk to me about Holland Cooper's first big break. Was there a specific product that just outperformed all the rest? Was it very slow and gradual? And then there was an inflection point. Talk to me about that. I think our growth has been what you would just call consistent. You know, I am a creator, a designer, but I'm also a business person and I love my numbers. So for me, this wasn't just about kind of turnover and growing that as quickly as possible.

28:30It was, well, I didn't have the luxury to do that. It was about I've got to make money as well. so we grew organically and so we didn't do you know the overnight success we I grew I sold some more I made some more you know I reinvested reinvested um probably the first big break on a kind of a mass scale or something that everyone would have heard of was the call from Harrods and that was you know a moment for me where it was like Harrods are on the phone you know everyone's running around. And that was amazing because that gave me a global platform to sell the product. And I always tried to, you know, even when we were tiny, appear bigger than we are.

29:13You know, you've got to put your best foot forward. You're trying to pretend you're a global office when there's two of you in a shoebox. That's just what you're trying to do. So for me to be able to say at that point, we are in Harrods, made people think of me in a different way. So, you know, oh, you've got a brand. Okay. First question, where are you? Oh, I'm in Harrods. Okay. Immediate light bulb moment. Okay. You're worth talking to. It's really hard in this industry. You know, people give you five minutes. Who are you? What are you doing? And Harrods gave me that hook to give me the credibility to start doing other things.

29:45And in the end, in Harrods, we had a really wonderful partnership and they were brilliant. And we started with a tiny area. In the end, we had a 2000 square foot, you know, bespoke store. I had our own staff in there. It It was wonderful. And we were there for about five years until the floors moved. And unfortunately, they did something completely different on the fifth floor. And then we were in the second floor and moved around and moved around. And, you know, that that didn't work in the end for us. But I'm very grateful to Harrods at that point because they gave us that platform and their customer loved it.

30:16You know, it was all of that heritage look and feel the British made. They loved the tailoring. And then from that, we got the call from Vista Village. And again, that although is a discount offering, it wasn't about the discount. I knew that if I wanted the global platform with those global players, that was a big market to be invited onto that round table with those stores because it's not independence in there. You've got all the big players. So, again, that was another important brand moment for us, I think, to sit alongside, you know, the big boys effectively on the same playing field. And again, the journey with business has been amazing.

30:54I think we're 60 % up year on year, you know, in there at the minute. And, you know, that has been a journey. So those moments are pivotal, I think, certainly in the industry. And just when you're talking to people about your business, you know, okay, these are milestones that other people understand. Yeah, no, I think it, I mean, I completely agree. And I think that as a business owner, to me, that's really, that's a really effective, I guess, it's an effective way of driving home how many different journeys there can be, but also just how important brand is. And it's not, you know, I mean, we all know it's not all about sales.

31:33But when you're looking at long term growth, brand really does reign superior. It does. And they've got to go hand in hand. And that's, again, another learning that I had was always how do I balance that investment, you know, with brand, as we call it, and keeping the money coming in in the till with sales. Because I think, again, in the industry, they push us into thinking we've got to spend in every single sphere and we've got to be at every single thing. And ultimately, that is just not or wasn't realistic for me because I had to make this profitable. That was how it was. Um, and so, uh, you know, I think I've always been very, um, curated with how I'm going to market the business.

32:17I've had to be clever with how I'm going to do that, make sure it's cost effective. Can I afford that? Um, and getting that organic growth and meaning that we can grow year on year, both the top line and the bottom line for me was what I deemed a successful business. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's really powerful for anyone trying to build a business and really recognizing that brand doesn't need to be the most expensive thing, but it does need to be held to importance. And what were some of the early challenges you faced with building the brand and the business as a whole? Oh my gosh, so many.

32:53I mean, it's reaching to the choir and it still is, you know, there's challenges at every stage of your business. And anyone that says there aren't challenges is lying, I think, because it's just, you know, impossible for anyone to do this and not make mistakes. mistakes. You know, I think there were times when it was very lonely, you know, and at the beginning when I left uni early, all my friends were still at uni and I'm like, oh, bloody hell, you know, I am working 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And this is this is hard. This is really hard. I think, you know, you make learnings all along the way.

33:30But I think it's what do you do with those learnings? You're going to make mistakes. That's just a fact. But what you don't want to do is make them two or three times in a row. So the quick learning is, right, I made that mistake. It's okay. We're all going to make mistakes. We've got to either find a positive in it or just make sure we don't do it again. And I think, you know, anyone starting a business, if you think you're not going to make a mistake or, you know, you're doing something wrong, if you make a mistake, it is just not the case. You know, you are going to make mistakes and that is okay.

34:00Yeah. It's so funny because I think that that is definitely what puts a lot of people off getting into building a business is the unknown and the fact that it's definitely not something that's traditionally taught. I mean, entrepreneurship classes, even if there are business classes, places, entrepreneurship classes are just not really a thing. And there's no better entrepreneurship class than actually just doing the thing. I always quote this, I can't remember what podcast it was on, but it was with Toby Pearce. And he said that the biggest thing when it comes to entrepreneurship is the speed and intensity of the feedback loop.

34:36When you are in a job where you have protections on different sides, you're able to make a mistake and you probably have to make it a few times to be able to learn from it. You might make it quicker, but you might not even know you're making a mistake. So it takes a bit more time. Whereas as an entrepreneur, the speed and intensity of that feedback loop, when you make a mistake, you know very, very quickly because you can see it in the numbers or you can see it in whatever the knock-on is to your production line to the timings of things happening or whatever it might be and the intensity of that in terms of the fallout from any mistake you make means that it really is a gift because it's it can be pretty awful at times but you mostly can't make mistakes more than once or twice because that is where the business starts to go very downhill but you just don't have the luxury and I think that's one of the best things of entrepreneurship when it comes to intense learning is you and anytime I've hired people who've had a business before I've just known I'm like you have learned so much in that short period of time even if it wasn't a long time because you do not have the luxury of making a mistake a few times and you will know very very quickly when you make a mistake every time you do and also you are doing every part of your business so you have to do everything you know there isn't there isn't lots of departments there you know you don't have the luxury of that so you have to learn and do everything and I think that that does set you up hopefully in good stead when you're employing people because you've okay maybe not done it to that level but you do have a general understanding of the business in its entirety and I think you've got to be able to think of 69 ,000 things at once because you're in every certainly in the beginning, you're in every single department all the time.

36:25And that means you can't just have the luxury of focusing in on one department and just spending all your time in that. You are marketing, you are the mouthpiece, you are brand, you are website, you are design, you are product, you are everything. Sales, you've got to wear so many hats and you've got to be able to do that unless you have a business partner, which can work for some people as well. I didn't. So I was every single hat all the time. And I loved it and hated it at the same time because it is tough. And I want to talk about the growth of the business. It's very clear how you started.

37:01And I think that now when people might log on to your Instagram, they're like, OK, if I've just listened to this and I've seen those kind of market still starts, how do we get to this point? So I want to talk about the growth and some of the key decisions you made in order to be able to grow how you have. Your team are the most important. Well, other than your product, it's then your team. You've got two things in a business. Both those things have got to come together to make this work. And I think to be successful, you've got to understand where your real skills are and where they are not. And you have to be accepting to welcome other people to the table and not be, I suppose, afraid or intimidated of success of other people and bringing people with experience onto your table.

37:46At the same time, you've got to have confidence in yourself that often you're sat with people with a lot more experience than you in their particular areas, but your gut feeling generally is the right one for your business. So I think, you know, I'm very lucky with the team I have around me now. They're passionate. Entrepreneurial businesses are really demanding. You know, you've got the corporates and you've got the entrepreneurial businesses. And whenever I'm interviewing people, you know, that maybe haven't worked in entrepreneurial business, I'm sort of looking into their soul to think, are you going to enjoy this?

38:18Because you have to enjoy it. People that work for you have to enjoy it. Otherwise, it never works. And, you know, this is a two-way street. You've got to love them. They've got to love you. They've got to be passionate. You are, I am demanding. Fact. But I'd like to think I'm also, you know, like to tell people when they've done a good job, I know who everyone is. You know, everyone's got a voice at the table. And I think when you're leading a team, that's important because ultimately job satisfaction means people want to come to work and they're enjoying being on the journey. But that, you know, team building is a whole learning curve in itself because you're trying to take lots of people on a journey very, very fast.

39:00and what worked last year doesn't work this year. And that's frightening for a lot of people. And it's disconcerting and, you know, they've just got their ducks in a row and we're changing the row of ducks again. And I think it's finding people that can cope and thrive in that environment that's the key. Because as entrepreneurs, we love being in that environment. Like that's our natural habitat is change, evolution. If I'm not feeling nervous or frightened, I'm not pushing myself hard enough. Every day I should feel nervous at some point because otherwise, what am I doing? And that is okay to be in that space because when you get comfortable, you're probably not moving fast enough.

39:38So it's getting people that are also of that mindset and enjoy, I suppose, a slight thrill of the unknown because we're pushing ourselves into the unknown all the time because we've not done it before. I've not done it before. So I think that's exciting, exhilarating, terrifying. It's an addiction. all in one go. Sometimes I think, why am I doing this to myself? But, you know, if it was taken away tomorrow, I would, my identity would be gone. I don't know what I would do. Yeah. No, I think, I mean, I agree with all of that. And I do also think I spend so much of my time just staring at myself and I'm like, are you insane?

40:17Anyone who sees the online probably only sees the euphoria, first of all, I will say. I mean, I try and give a good balance, but if I'm, you know crying in the gym i probably don't want to put that in my story it's hard i agree with you it's hard to sometimes be confident enough to show those realities yeah and and you know that's been you know a learning for me as well the market's uncertain revenues tied and hiring on hold that's why results driven companies are using upwork to keep work moving go to upwork.com today and start hiring proven freelance talent fast. No bulky overhead. No rigid long-term contracts.

40:58Just the right expert right when you need them. Work smarter and faster with Upwork. Go to upwork.com now and find your freelance expert. That's upwork.com. Post a job for free and get started today. I think in COVID is when I really started leaning into Instagram in a different way, maybe, you know, letting down those barriers a bit. But I do think it's hard. It is hard for me to show those times when I'm thinking, you know, I can, can I do this? Those self-doubt moments, which we all have. And, you know, you're leading a team of people. You don't want to be standing at the front saying, you know, should, should we be going into battle or not?

41:41You've got to be saying you're the hype person. You've got to be saying, yeah, this is exactly the right thing to be doing even if you're not thinking that. And I think that's hard as well because you've always got to be the voice of confidence. You've always got to be happy. You've always got to be on. You've always got to be a powerhouse. This person everyone's looking to. So when you're waking up thinking, I don't know if I can do this, that is not an emotion that is acceptable to be showing ever. So you are just painting this on whether you're feeling it or not. And that can be quite draining sometimes because you know you're not a machine you're not a robot you do have emotions like everybody else yeah no I think about that a lot and I think about the fact that that mental load is very very heavy it's high how how do you deal with that side of things whilst also obviously needing to show up in a certain way and needing to build the business and needing to be high energy?

42:37I think you just learn to be able to do that. You just learn to do it. And I think, you know, it's not easy. And there are days where sometimes you are struggling and thinking, can I do this? And do I know the best way to do this? And, you know, can I do these 50 ,000 things at once? But I think every time you push through that, there's a learning of, okay, it is okay. I am going to be able to do it. But I think, again, for anyone watching this that maybe is wanting to start a business or has started a business, you are going to have moments of self-doubt. That is okay. Nobody wakes up every day and says, oh, I'm the best business person ever to exist and I'm eternally confident.

43:21To have that self-doubt is probably normal. It is normal. And I should show that probably more than I do, I think. But you're equally trying to be the powerhouse and you're trying to be all these things. So it's hard sometimes to find the balance of how you portray that, I think. No, I completely agree. I completely agree. Getting the balance of who you are and what that looks like. But certainly, you know, I employ, I think it's, and this isn't because I don't like men, it just has happened this way. 95 % of my workforce are women. You make clothes for women. Yeah. We wouldn't be surprised if the other way around.

43:58And the senior leadership, you know, again, 90 % women. So I think that's nice in a way because, you know, we can share those empathies sometimes that I think are important when, you know, you're working with women and, you know, you face some of those challenges together. But I think it is, it is a, can be a difficult balance to know how your persona should be, you know. Yeah, no, absolutely. And having brought up the fact that obviously you have a largely women leadership team, I'd like to talk about the fact that obviously you have children and you're running this business. And I always preface this on the podcast with the fact that I hate that I have to ask women about how it is running a business with children.

44:43But also, we know that it is different for women as much as it shouldn't be. yeah so i would if you are okay with that love to ask you about how you found balancing running this business growing this business having huge success online having you know becoming a public figure and all of that with with raising beautiful children and trying to you know balance everything that comes with that look it's not easy it's not easy for however you do it. It's the best thing I've ever done. It's just a joy and it brings something. It levels you in a way that nothing else can. When I'm with my children, it's just, yeah, it's the best thing.

45:29I think I was lucky that I had an easy pregnancy. I think if I didn't, I don't know genuinely what I would have done. So when I see people that have really difficult pregnancies, I don't know how I would have coped with that. I'm going to be really honest. You know, I was lucky. Pregnancy isn't easy. You know, it's still very demanding, but I wasn't very ill. You know, it was both my pregnancies were straightforward. So touch wood, I'm very thankful for that. And the business was at a point where I was successful enough that I could afford help. So, you know, again, I feel very lucky for that.

46:04But even if you have help and you want to be a present mum, you know, it's a juggle. Everything's a juggle. You're trying to be a mum, a wife, a business woman, all of these things. Again, it's not easy and it's not every day is a bed of roses, but we make it work and we juggle and we understand what that juggle looks like. And when I'm talking about empathy and understanding, a lot of the women in my business have children or are pregnant or have just had new babies or whatever it is, I hope I can be that boss that is understanding and we're trying to make it work and we're trying to do it all as you say it's it's it's not double standards but I think there is a double standard for men and women in terms of those questions and how do we do it all um but for me it it has been you know an element of my life that's just been I feel so lucky to have been able to have two healthy children and they definitely give me grounding like nothing else.

47:06And, you know, when I come home from work and they're there, it is a joy, but everything is a juggle. And obviously, both you and your husband, Julian, have backgrounds in fashion. He founded Superdry. I can imagine that in a family environment, when you're coming home from work, you're running this fashion business, coming home, you've both done this and you've both been in this kind of area. First of all, how do you find it, having worked in the same industry and obviously having understandings of similar things, what are the synergies there? But also, how do you find the ability to switch off, given the fact that you're probably both very similar in some of those areas?

47:49I feel so lucky to have found someone that loves working as much as I do, because it is difficult. Questions, when is enough? When are you going to slow down? When is there enough money? Why don't you just retire? It was just not a narrative I could understand. So to find somebody else like that was, you know, we have so many similarities. Similarities in work, similarities in morality, similarities in parenting. When we're at home, we are mum and dad. Fact. That's what's happening. Phones are down. We're with our children. He loves the children. He's an amazing dad. He will get home at quarter past five and he is going to be a dad until they go to bed.

48:28And so we both prioritize that. When we're working, we're working like dogs. That's where we are. So again, I think I feel very lucky to have found someone where we've got the synergies in so many different areas. We are both traders at heart. We both started on a market stand. There's no happier place for us than standing behind a till taking money. However, we're doing that, whether it's online or not, or we're both as excited about business now as we were then. And, you know, I think to have longevity in business, you have to retain that excitement. It isn't just about the money. It's about that's who you are, whether you like it or not.

49:13You are excited by business. You are excited by working. If it was just about the money, you cap out at a certain time, you want to retire, that's the end. You don't mind because you got the money. But for us, it's not about that. It's about growth. It's about the journey. It's about what can we do as people. And we do work together in different aspects. We, you know, we have hotels and restaurants and we enjoy that bit, but we are, you know, we're two elephants in the room. We have to have something that's our own. We can't, we're two bigger people to sort of, you know, be both doing the same thing.

49:47And we understand that and that's fine. And luckily we share, you know, the same aesthetics. We're very similar as people, which is lovely because again, it can be very lonely sometimes. So to be able to share that with somebody, what do you think about this? How are you feeling about that? Is lovely because it's quite hard for other people to understand or friends that may not be in this space. It's quite isolating because you don't really have anyone to talk to. I think being present is something that that we both really share. So I, you know, yeah, I feel very lucky to have that. And what are some of the habits and routines that you have in place yourself and as a family that means that you're able to maintain some sort of balance whilst also building something that should really take over your life?

50:33I think the children have been a massive part of that because, you know, anyone that has children will know they are all consuming. So, you know, trying to do be with your children and send an email and 15 other things if you can try and say when I'm with my children I am going to switch off and have that discipline that that has really helped I think it is look it's a constant battle and and often I do run out you know the scales are tipping the wrong way um and that's where you do become stressed and you do become tired and you do become sometimes resentful towards it you know why do I keep wanting to be like this?

51:12Why can't I just accept not having so much growth? You become irritated with yourself. I do sometimes. I'm thinking, why am I like this? What's wrong with me? And I think, again, sometimes when the scales tip in the wrong way, that is a catalyst to say, no, right, I need to be more disciplined with my time. Go back to the drawing board. Where does my focus have to be. And I think as you get bigger, again, you have to, and your team has to understand you are only one person. There is only so many hours in the day. Where are you spending your time that is going to be most effective to that growth channel?

51:52And that's a journey for everyone because when you had two hours, three years ago, you've got 20 minutes now. So it's about everyone being able to deliver what they need to you in a timely way, you delivering to them what they need in a timely way, your time management has got to be spot on. And if you can't get that, the business sort of engulfs you and you can't see out. And everyone will have moments of that and you've just got to rework that plan. And that's happening to me almost every six months where I sit down and go, right, hang on, this is feeling unmanageable. I just can't do it all.

52:29And we have to sit down and say, right, what does this look like now? But that's just an evolution and that's a journey. What do you look at when you're doing that type of kind of life audit and work audit? I think, you know, you have to look at what can I, what do I need to be giving to the business? What do I need to be able to do? Product. I need space in my brain to be able to think about it. Because if I'm going from design two hours, straight into finance, an hour, straight into marketing, an hour, straight into something else an hour. There is no time in between those meetings to even think of anything.

53:05The diary is so stretched that I'm in a meeting, somebody's standing outside the door ready for the next meeting, your brain's got to go into something else. And the lack of thinking time can be very detrimental to actually delivering, as you say, a good job. And I think to be able to have that half an hour where you don't have a meeting where it's like, right, I'm going to think about what that new collection needs to look like. For me, that often comes when we go away for a weekend because we might go to Paris or something and I will have that thinking time, okay, breathing space almost to think about what those next steps are because the fear or the problem can be is that you're so stretched and you're so pushed for outbound to people that you don't actually have any time to think of anything and then you're not giving those forward thoughts those forward plans to the company and look I I've fallen into that trap several times recently because the business has got so much bigger so much more demanding and I'm doing I suppose what you would call a traditional influencer bit as well which anyone that says influencer jobs are easy is has never done that because you know that takes time you know you're trying on all the outfits I want to talk to my followers I want to do that as well but you that that is a time you have to carve out in the day where there's no minutes yeah so you know it's all it's all juggling but I think the time I've recently um purchased a horse and the horse is an hour away from where I live which sounds nuts but when I drive to see him on the way there I will do calls on the way back I won't, I get one hour of thinking space.

54:47And that probably is making me more money than these back-to-back-to-back sessions where I just don't have any time. And it's that thinking space and allowing yourself that time that I think is really important. And that I'm not brilliant at, I'm going to be honest, but I'm doing my best to try and find that space. Yeah. And one of my favorite things is the saying that you can have it all, but you cannot have it all at once. And I think the one is so clear. And I'm like, cool. Well, I want to have some different things right now. Yeah, yeah. No, it's like that's just not possible. Yeah, having it all is, I don't know how you do that.

55:29Yeah, I don't think you can. I genuinely don't. I definitely have not found that a possibility. As you say, you can have it all at once, but not all at once. It's very hard and there are things that you just can't do and you have to accept that. because you're wanting to take a different path. And so that's your choice. You're accepting to do that. But that's not always easy, even though it is your choice. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think that auditing and re-auditing and having that space carved out to actually be like, am I focusing on the things I need to be focusing on now is incredibly important.

56:04And before we end, I'd love to ask you what the best piece of advice is that you have ever been given. Oh, that's a good question. Um, I know I touched on it earlier, like listening to your gut, but I think very early on, and I can't remember who it was, said that to me. You know, you will have lots of people talking to you and the bigger you get or even the smaller you are, because I think that's when you're most vulnerable because you're thinking, I'm new to this. Do I know what the right answer is? Surrounded by experts. Go with your gut feeling. And I think if you are a natural entrepreneur and you know what your white space is, you may know over and above the expert in whatever that field is because they maybe haven't built a business and you are going to.

56:50So it doesn't matter if you're in your first week of business or your 20th year of business. That gut instinct can seem naive and maybe frightening to go with that. But I would say it isn't. And for me, that has always been the right decision. And if it is a maybe, it should be a no. If you're not sure and you're having to think about it a lot, I put that into a no bucket as quickly as possible. I think that's a great piece of advice and something I think I definitely didn't do early enough. And I'm now having to reclaim, stand ground. Dig deep. Yeah. And dig deep and be like, yeah, also you don't need to be an expert in everything.

57:31You can be an expert in your brand and that goes a very long way. A long way and you know your brand better than anyone else. And that's not to say you don't listen to other people. Of course you should. But there are times when you have to chop out the noise, dig deep and think, no, I am the expert in this and this is what I think and that's okay. Yeah. And that does take a lot of confidence to do that. You've got to have that inner confidence. And if you don't have it, you've got to find it and dig deep to find it somewhere. But yeah, that would be my advice. Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much.

58:08You've been fantastic. And I will be personally walking away from this with a lot of things I need to do. Thank you so much.

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