Ep. 133 Why Our 20s Are So Confusing And Guide On How To Tackle Them With Jemma Sbeg [From The Archives]

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1:34Hello and welcome back to Working Hard Hardly Working. I hope you're having a great week so far. We are currently on a little podcast break at Working Hard Hardly Working while we work on something hugely exciting, which is coming very, very soon. And I also focus on opening the first ever Tala store, which I still cannot believe is happening. And it takes a lot of work. But, you know, I would never move on to leave you without inspiring content on a Monday morning. so I have picked my absolute favourite episodes from the nearly 130 that we've released because I go and listen back to my favourite episodes of this podcast that really changed my life at the time so these have been handpicked I really hope you enjoy them and I will speak to you very soon.

2:18Gemma Spegg is someone everyone in their 20s needs her podcast the psychology of your 20s was one of the 20 most listened to podcasts in the world last year and she started it as a hobby while working her 80 plus hour week in a corporate job. I will be totally clear with you, my aim going into this episode was just to get as much advice from Gemma as physically possible to make it a guide to owning and understanding what is arguably the most confusing decade of our lives. We covered everything from finding your dream job, to comparison, to moving to a new city, to relationships and so so so much more and one of my favourite things about Gemma is that she comes to everything with evidence.

2:58She comes with statistics and really helps our like understanding of it overall and to me that makes a huge difference to actually just being able to live my life, understand why I'm feeling certain ways and honestly we will be doing another episode of this because I feel like we didn't even scratch the surface even though there is so much here. before we get into the podcast if you could just go and rate this on whichever podcast app you are listening to this on it makes a huge difference to the podcast and the types of incredible conversations we're able to have the types of guests we're able to get on so you know I know it's probably something you don't think about but if you could just go rate it now or follow it it makes a huge difference thank you so much thank you so much for joining me thank you for having me I'm so excited to be in the UK not just me my team are obsessed with you and everything you do oh my goodness I really needed to hear that my imposter syndrome has been going off the charts today yeah I was saying whenever I come to a new country especially which is what you were saying like I just feel so out of depth right I'm like oh my god nobody knows me here what am I doing here maybe this like opportunity is better for somebody else so it's really nice that you said that no get that out your head I know I need to I give people advice about that yeah and then here I am being like isn't it so funny though that that's the way it like even when we know factually and like instinctively that it's not the right way for our brains to feel and we're still like I'm a piece of shit literally it's self-sabotage and it's so interesting because like your friend could come to you with that same conundrum and you're like gosh like yeah you have no idea what you're talking about here it's like five refined points about why you're wrong but then when your brain says it's like you are so right you are the most smartest person for thinking that about yourself good job um so I ask everyone whether they feel like they are currently more working hard or hardly working oh working hard yeah yeah and yeah I just finished a book so and I wow and I got it in my head you'll come to realize that my relationship with productivity is like incredibly toxic and I got it in my head yeah I know and I got it in my head that I was going to finish the book in four months because I was like I just want to get it done I don't want any gaps because I want it to be cohesive blah blah blah and yeah that was a terrible decision because my deadline wasn't for another like three so I'm just I was just working really hard on it we're the same person because I so I did the exact same I gave myself half the time to write it and half the time to edit it yeah and then I was on a strict like by the 10 ,000 word schedule I was like no I have to have 10 ,000 done by then, 10 ,000 done by then, 10 ,000 done by then.

5:42Yeah. Do you have this thing where once you set your mind to something, you can't break it. It is such a deep promise. And I always, and I'm sure it's like a component of OCD where I'm like, okay, something bad is going to happen if I don't, I'm going to be so behind. Something's going to fall from the sky. Like if I've made this promise, like I need to keep it. It's just like a whole thing. So working hard, I've just finished that. Once you get in that lane of like productivity and output, it's so hard to get out of it. Oh, no, 100%. And I also feel like one of the most, I think a lot about the fact that the reason my relationship with productivity is so toxic is because I've always been so highly rewarded by it.

6:20Like when I tell myself the world is going to fall apart when I don't reach a deadline, I then reach a deadline and I get rewarded for it. And I did the work and I get paid for it or like whatever it might be. And I'm like, okay, so I was correct. The world didn't fall apart. That's your reward. I know it's the reinforcement and I think it's like you get addicted to the sense of purpose and you get addicted to the sense of, again, reinforcement. If I put in more, normally you get out more as well. But it does hit a level where you actually physically can't keep doing that. I think I'm about like five minutes away from that.

6:54Perfect. Well, I'll check back in. Yeah, please do. I won't be here. I should be on the floor. Perfect. Well, I'll just come down there. We'll do it under the table. These are fun. So last year, your podcast was the 19th most listened to in the world. I know. It was, it's crazy, isn't it? That is, first of all, that is fucking nuts just as a stat, but I can also completely see why. Thank you. It makes so much sense and you rinsed that imposter syndrome out of your head before I can knock it out of you. I think it's really interesting because I know the numbers, right? I could tell you my listenership.

7:33I could tell you my downloads. and like the 19th number I feel so weird talking about it but like yeah it's such a sign of success but you feel so detached from that because you don't especially like I work from I work by myself quite a bit because all my team is in the US and in the UK so I spend a lot of time by myself and a lot of time not really I think fully feeling the impact of the work that I do and that sometimes makes me feel like is that it was that number is that a lie like is that real but it is like an incredible experience and I've built such a beautiful community yeah I mean it's amazing it's entirely reflective of the work you do because it honestly would be I can completely see why you would have such like a supportive and incredible community because like you've bonded this many people over this time in our lives that just feels so confusing yeah and we'll come on to speak about why and like what that really means and like why that's such a bonding point but I do feel like both the vulnerability but also like the factual side of it that you brought to it I feel like is a real anchoring kind of hopeful resource for so many people well I think that the thing that I also noticed some when I first began about the wellness community is yes it is so valid that more people are talking about this and it's amazing that it's more accessible but there does come a point where like the advice does actually need to be evidence-based and I think when you have a platform that is speaking to millions of people it's unethical to go on and be like well this is what I think and therefore you should believe it too so that's like a big component of the psychology of your 20s is if you listen to the show there will be articles there will be journals there will be statistics it is going to be like factual theory rather than me being like okay just like stare into the sun for five minutes a day to like realign your chakras Like, please, please don't do that.

9:29Please don't do that. The Fred Hollis Foundation right now is like, stop. Please protect your eyes. Yeah, wear sunglasses. Exactly. But yeah, you can see the stuff that people say that is just as harmful as imagine me saying that. And so I think the thing that the wellness community needs to do better in a sense is like actually giving people scientific evidence and advice rather than just opinionated theory. in a way yeah and i think one of the things that stands out to me about that is like well your podcast wouldn't be the 19th most listened to in the world if we didn't all bond over this thing and if we do all bond over this thing yeah then there must be relative experiences and data that applies to all of us that can actually help us through it exactly like you've just hit the nail on the head like there is an explanation and when there's not an explanation that's even more revealing because I think it really shows that the science is not catching up with the experience so like I always give the example of situationships right that's a new term that's kind of a new concept I had to explain to my mum what that was about there is very few like academic articles about that and yet I would say that if you sat down most people who are in their late teens 20s maybe early 30s and said have somebody that you know yourself been in a situation do you know what I'm talking about they'd be like yeah it's despicable it's awful I never want to do that again like it ruined my friend's life and there's no science behind it so you have to find other theories that explain it and so I think it's so important that in these experiences where we feel very lonely and very alone especially in our 20s when everything is so fucking confusing there is actually a reason behind that that you can and you know I will say this some people like a reason and some people like comfort and I think that I try and combine both of those things because some people find a lot of solace in the facts of the experience and some people just find solace in the fact that it is not a singular isolated experience right and that they just want to hear that they're not alone and I think that the research kind of provides both those things obviously I mean you've studied our 20s for a long time now you've gone very in depth you've done hundreds of podcasts on it why are our 20s such a confusing and stressful decade it's like the million dollar question right i'm gonna give you three points i'm gonna break it down point evidence explanation 1.1 1.2 section yeah i'm gonna give it to you like a favor no just kidding i think the first biggest reason is there is no playbook there has been millions of people that have done this kind of pilgrimage before us but each of those paths is is totally unique so for every year I think every age up until 18 there is a structure around what comes next and the structure normally revolves around education or revolves around this the schooling system so you know you you graduate from I don't know what it's called here primary school yeah yeah school and then you go to secondary school you're like high school and there are these very easy steps to the big goal of graduating and nothing really starts before you get to graduation and nothing prepares you for afterwards because it is like this big wall that once you climb over it's like this empty field and there is no path and I think that to explain why our 20s are so confusing we do have to start in like the teenage years and how structured it typically is and the second component as to why they're so confusing is because once we reach that point every single one of our paths splinters you have one friend who is like off solo traveling someone's married with kids someone's doing their masters someone's still working you know the job they had at 15 someone's starting their own business and there is no specific blueprint for what needs to be done but the third point is that at the same time that there is no way to do it there is an expectation of the of this like to-do list that there are some things that you need to tick off to be an accomplished person to be on the right track and that is very traditional right it's like have you met the love of your life before 30 well you better have otherwise what are you doing are you moved out of your parents house by 23 that that's really really important like what about your friends do you have a big group of friends do you have do you know what you want to do with your life and so it's like suddenly you're like in this decade where you genuinely don't know who you are yet everyone throws around that statistic of like your brain is not fully formed until 25 yes but then your personality isn't fully formed until much later like there's so much growth that happens and yet people are asking you these really big existential questions and expecting you to have the answers there's my there's my synopsis oh that was so good okay i'm so glad that was so beautifully concise three point attack plan no and i could see where the bullet points were and that really makes me happy um but i think but i think as part of that like you know i totally agree with all of that and i think that we have to talk about like the magnifying factor of like prior to the past 20 years we would see that reflected among our friend groups and our peers like we would see okay well this friend's doing a master's as you say this friend's starting a family this friend's still doing the job they're doing then that 15 this black person's doing um going backpacking or whatever it might be and then whereas like now you see that not just among your friends you see that reflected literally over the whole world like I could look up millions of I don't know 27 year olds right now and be like what are they doing what's it how much money do they have like have they met their partner do they have kids like do they have a career like have they been promoted three times like all of these different things you have an unlimited pocket of access to everything that's going to make you feel inferior or like you've not done it right like imagine if you had five friends and you were like well I want that one's love life I want that one's career I want that one's like a sense of fun I want that one's like family like all of these different you would be able to somewhat say like okay but they don't have that the other one's career they don't have the other one's this whereas like because because of the way we absorb social media now there's really no way to see the holes in what they don't have all you see is what they do have absolutely and it is like the age-old battle of comparison and it's really interesting because something I've noticed is that in the age of social media right the only kind of comparison we're doing is upward social comparison and that means that the only people that we compare ourselves to are those that we assume are doing better than us I was thinking about this the other day because someone came up to me and was like oh my god I want this life that it seems that you have and I was thinking about it I was like the times I've been most miserable have been when I've been most active on social media because it's like I feel like that's I'm compensating for how shit I feel and so yeah you're completely right that's another component it's just such an unrealistic and I know it's like everyone says this but it really is.

16:48No, 100%. And that just made me think because the other day I did a podcast and I went on it and she was like, at the end she was like, oh, and like, we were just talking. She was like, and how did you do this? Because like, I just like, I really want your life. And I was like, really? Isn't it clear that this is like a shit show at the moment? And then I was like, wait, no, it's not clear. It's not clear at all. And actually, that's so reflective of the fact that like, I always think about other people's businesses, like everyone's business is a shit show from the inside. but all you see is your shit show and you see everyone else's like polished castle and I think it is so interesting and when you start to see it about yourself you start to realize like how much it cannot be true for other people because I like had this like underlying assumption that people would be like oh yeah you do be having a tough time right now and I was like crazy yeah and I was like wow no but that would actually you would never get that from my social media I wouldn't get that well it's honestly like I wouldn't have gotten that you know I literally walked in here and I was like my sister is such a huge fan and like she loves your brand like she loves Tala and like and it's so interesting because I think people there are probably people listening to this who have I would hope have such a deep admiration for you and probably hearing you just be like yeah it's a bit of a shit show is like kind of nice I'm sure like I remember someone saying that to me like this really huge podcaster was like oh like I always look at my listens or whatever and I was like oh me too like it's not just me like there is this sense of like when you humanize yourself in a way that social media doesn't let you do there's just so much more compassion and so much more like I think empathy and just a sense of normalcy yeah no it's okay it's all right slow down like you've got it you're sorting it out no absolutely and kind of along those lines and what we've discussed in terms of like those five friends for example I want to talk about the kind of paradox of choice when it comes to your life decisions in your 20s like I've seen so many TikToks being like I want to be the girl that's just like moved country and just starting again but I also want to be the girl that's like found the love of her life and is like kind of settling down and I also want to be the girl who's like gone to New York and has started this big hot shot career and like I just know I'm all of these girls at once like how do we overcome that level of anxiety to an extent of like making the right decision and choosing that like sliding doors right life path in our 20s oh I love that sliding doors that's a really great way to put it right I do feel that like one of the curses of getting older is that yeah you feel more free in a sense you feel more independent you're probably making more money like you probably feel a bit more like sure of yourself but with every choice you make it does feel like a door closes and that your life becomes more restricted.

19:35That is the paradox of choice. And if you're not familiar with like the study that created this, basically these researchers went to a farmer's market and they were selling jam. And what they wanted to see was, were people more likely to be happy or make a choice when it came to buying jam, when there were six jams versus 24? And they assumed that when there was 24 jams, people would be more likely to buy one and would be happier because they had more options but actually fewer people bought the jam and a lot of people were like I really wish that I'd bought in the marmalade I actually you know I bought the lemon curd but I should have bought the strawberry like dang whereas when the people and when people only had six options they were like no I'm really happy with my choice so it's this weird thing where we are this generation that is very lucky and very privileged and we can see how many lives there are out there for us to live and we think that that is a good thing it is not because it just makes you so much more aware of the possibility and therefore feel like you just can't live all those lives at once and my advice would be you can do it all just not at once you can do it all see your life as not just this big chunk of time but as these seasons right and your 20s involves I always say five seasons you've got like 21 to 20 20 to 22 22 to 24 you know blah blah blah you can figure out those numbers yeah like and I realize that might be a bit repetitive but you have like all this time and instead of just being like oh my god my 20s thinking like okay but this is season one and okay in six months we're going to be in season two what am I going to change only one thing I just need to change one thing about my life in season two maybe that is I'm going to start dating again maybe that is okay I'm going to just start my side hustle everything else in my life can stay the same I think we often think that we need to make these big choices like every example you gave right was like huge like I want to be the girl who lives in a new country I want to be the the big business lady I almost said bitch which is awful girl boss big girl boss yeah the CEO oh gosh that is the worst but you're totally right I want to be the CEO in New York City like those I want to meet the love of my life you know that's those are big things just focus on changing one small thing every season every chapter and see how that transforms because I think the reason the paradox of choice gets us and really restricts us is because we think that it needs to be magnificent and enormous when it can actually be a bit more micro no that's so true and I think that what often happens is we get to a point where we realize that we're maybe not happy with where we are and we suddenly just throw everything like out or start 20 new things or whatever it might be and then inevitably we fall off and we go back to square one because it was just we were biting off more than we could choose exactly and it's the same with like everything it's the same with starting a business it's the same with you know changing your career it's the same with whatever it might be like as you say you can have it all but you can't have it all at once and like this idea that you need to overhaul your whole life is like I think there's sometimes around like some glow up content on social media and like I think some of it is really great because some of it is really around just like Like the 1 % every day, build good habits, like just this, like great, fantastic, science-based, like really going to help you build evidence that you can do things and go in the right direction.

23:09But like so much of it is like, how I become an entirely new person in like a month. And it's like, okay, but you're not an entirely new person in a month because even if you stuck to those things for a month, the chance of you sticking to all 20 of those changes over six months even is close to nil. Have you ever done 75 hard? no nor do i have the attention so i have beef with 75 hard for that very reason and i honestly i'm like i i feel like i don't even need to say this but i have full respect for people who do it because if it works for you works for you and they're so disciplined and incredible but for me like on a more personal and scientific level i i feel like that is an example of that where it just doesn't work because it's only like if you really want to change your life in your 20s yes there will come points of crossroad but they're you know the kind of philosophy behind 75 hard is like just like these this you can change everything in the short period of time and you want the instant gratification and like okay you want to lose weight you want to get fit you want to like improve everything like yeah you can do that in like three months and I just think that everything in our 20s really does come down to the sense of like I need to be doing it all right now yeah and And I need to be seeing results right now.

24:25And it's like, no, this is a process. Like, the quote that I love is like, you don't harvest the day that you plant the seed. And I just think that is such like simple but profound advice for people during this decade to be like, you can make small changes that if you are consistent will build the life that you want. Yeah. No, I completely agree. And we all know that that's like, I mean, it's like the James Clear atomic habit stuff. like it's very it is based on habits theory which is based on how we actually change our lives through small things which have big results which is like fantastic it's so funny that you say 75 hard because actually when shreddy the company i um started that's like a fitness app based company we would get so many requests being like will you do a 75 hard will you do a 75 hard will you do a 75 hard and we ended up doing like a shreddy 70 where we were very specifically we were like your things for the day are just like they're small like they're not about you've got to do two workouts and you've got to do this and this and this specifically because it's like if you look at habits theory building in two 45 minute workouts to your day is not a habit like it technically cannot be classified as a habit who has time for that because it physically is not integratable in in terms of i don't even know if that was a word that i just know it's that was so eloquent I listened to you say that and I was like yeah I was like maybe it's not integratable it is not integratable it's not integratable is a word also like sorry I'm going to continue my beef with this but like how many liters of water do they say you need to drink oh I don't know but I actually have a hilarious story around liters of water because I drink so much water right yeah I actually think like I remember I once spent a weekend with my mom and she was like I'm worried that you're going to drown yourself because I drink like five liters of water a day are you No, I know.

26:20And I don't think I'm meant to. But I think I have a real like I have a real I don't know. I have a compulsion. Unquenchable. But yeah, we were making our health and fitness planners. And we had little like we had little like droplets for what they in the designers kept putting like glasses of water. And I kept changing it in the rounds. I kept changing it to litres of water. And then they kept changing it back to glasses of water. And they had to in a meeting, they had to be like, by the way, Grace, the reason we keep changing that back to glass. I was like, can everyone stop changing this to glasses?

26:52It's liters. And they were like, no, it's actively against like health recommendations. Have you gotten your kidneys checked recently? I think that that needs to be done. This isn't actually an intervention. Yeah. No, I drink an obscene amount of water. I think it's an activity thing. I'm constantly like moving, doing things. No, because it makes my stomach funny. But if I could, I tell you now, I would chew the most gum out of everyone. So I chew so much gum. I literally had to, my New Year's resolution this year was to quit gum. And I did it. I've done it. I quit gum. See, I'm not chewing gum right now.

27:29But it was because I was so like anxious that I was always like, I need like the tactile sense of it. I'm thinking of getting a little fiddle ring. You should get one. Have you heard of, so a friend of mine, Ellie Middleton, who is from the UK and she's an autism and ADHD advocate. She has like this fidget thing that she holds it. She uses in interviews and she was telling me about it and she was like, it's so useful because you actually, I always was like, is that going to be a distraction? Obviously she's neurodivergent, but like, yeah, she was like, it really helps you focus because all that nervous energy is going elsewhere.

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30:03With their 30-day money-back guarantee, what have you got to lose? Head to bluehost.com to start now. And with what we were talking about in terms of like these seasons when it comes to your because I've heard of seasons often applied to life and I love the idea but I've heard of it in much bigger blocks like we think of it as like decade seasons rather than necessarily as in like your season of your 20s your season I love thinking of it as two years and that kind of brings into question the idea for me around like I get a lot of questions around like what what should my five-year plan be when I've like start just got into a grad scheme or whatever it might be.

30:43What do you think about five-year plans? Like, should we be having a five-year plan in our 20s? I don't believe in it. And I know some people will find that controversial. I think it is a great exercise in terms of value refinement, but I actually think that it's better to do this exercise instead, which is think about a day in five years time in your life. And I want you to think about it in as much detail. Where are you waking up? What are your bed sheets like? You You know, what's your morning commute to work? What do you, what's your office? Where are you going to work that day? What emails are you replying to?

31:19What does your space look like? Who are you getting lunch with? Who are you going to have dinner with in the evening? What does your nighttime routine look like? If you had to do anything that evening, like what would make you happy in five years time to be doing? Think about that instead. Instead of being like, I need to have$30 ,000 saved, like a crazy amount. and I need to have gotten this number of promotions I want to be manager and I want to be engaged maybe that one is one that you should think about because you know that's an important like family planning thing but in terms of like more career and finances and things like that I think putting too much pressure on yourself to have it all figured out in this like block of time actually doesn't help you because it makes you feel so much more restricted and I think also it just feels like such a big task it's such a huge thing that you want to do that sometimes it doesn't feel present does that make sense like yeah can you really incorporate that into your daily life sometimes no yeah and I think that's so interesting because a lot of the time we talk about financial freedom because of what it leads to like so we talk to talk about the fact that I want that money because I want to be able to decide what I do with my time or I want that money so that I stop feeling anxious about my bank account or like whatever it might be and I like the way you've laid that out because essentially what you're doing is the result of the end goal not just the end goal exactly like rather than being like I want to be manager because I want to be manager you don't want to be manager because you want to be manager you want to be manager because you are higher up the hierarchy because you've because you've kind of got more experience because you're earning more because you feel more fulfilled like all of these things you don't just want to be manager for the sake of it and you don't just want 30 000 pounds for the sake of it exactly you only want those things in relation to what those things bring you so I really like the idea of outlining therefore if I got that what does that mean to me and I think that like I think you can absolutely I don't have you know an issue with say like vision boarding as long as it considers that like it's not just about getting that manager title it's about what that means for the rest of your life in terms of as you say when are you waking up how are you getting to work like what's your situation i think the other thing is i i'm sure like i think about my life five years ago there was no way i would have thought that this is what it was going to be like and if i'd followed my five-year plan from five years ago because i i did have one um i would be like i don't know working for like a political party probably and i would be like interning like with at a government agency like i wanted to be a politician i see that yeah well i thank you but I'm also kind of like I don't say it in a bad way yeah thank you because I'm like I'd like you to be a politician rather than the politicians yeah I mean I'd like you to be one as well thank you my god it's the next no enough and someone needs to tell you to stop it's so true it's so true so I was in a thing actually in government the other day and someone walked out the room and tapped me on the shoulder and she goes you should go into politics you should that the way that fulfilled every single one of like my childhood goals I really thought I'd be in politics you know we are the same person we actually are the same person it comes to my attention it's crazy and then you realize sorry I'm gonna get political like how corrupt everything is and you're just like maybe I don't want to be part of that machine anyhow that's this has turned into a completely different podcast I'm sorry this is a mess but anyhow if I had followed my five-year plan that's what it would have been like and I just think that when you let yourself be a bit more like lucid and free and flexible think there is space for surprises and there is space for changes and I often think about it in the case of like okay you're on the pipeline for the manager position and then somebody connects with you on LinkedIn and goes you should really go for this job no but I need to be manager that was part of my five-year plan that's what's going to make me happy there's so much that you become closed off to and you're not actually the other thing is that I think a lot of the the milestones that we think will make us happy actually don't and I've definitely found that well there were milestones that I hit where I was like my first serious relationship was an example I was like I just want to be in a relationship I just want to get it out of the way I just want to be loved no because I was I didn't even get him out yeah like didn't have a boy you know I never had a boyfriend when I was younger and I went to uni and I finally had my boyfriend and I was like I did it yeah Yeah.

35:54And like, and it was like awful because it was like, no, those milestones that you think are important are not happy. And now I'm with somebody who I'm like, I let go of the pressure and I'm like super happy now. So, yeah, I just that's from my experience. Yeah, no, I think that's completely true. Like tunnel vision is good for the right things. Yes. But tunnel vision applied to a hypothetical that you don't actually know is going to be what you want in five years. Like it's what you now want for you in five years. you don't know if that's what you in five years wants for you yes sorry that was like explaining like the most conscious way that it possibly could have been but i think that the when you get stubborn and tunnel visioned on something that you have no evidence that that is actually the right thing you are just hypothesizing yeah i think that's when it you start to like what's the saying cut off your nose in spite of your face exactly that is exactly the same i mean to but you're right I love what you said about when you have tunnel vision for a hypothetical but I I do want to say like it is important to be focused right and it is important to have broader goals but I do think that the goals that there's this idea of having smart goals I'm sure you've heard of it it's like um I don't even know specific measurable actionable realistic timely but what about like sustainable and what about like healthy and what about happy and what about like product like there's so many other criteria for a goal rather than just its efficiency and getting there fast so yes have like in your 20s i think it's valuable to have an idea of the life you want to live and to be working towards that but don't think that there is one way to get there that's probably my like concluding statement yeah for what we were talking about no no i think that's really valuable and i think that personally i've always felt that it's about setting goals but not being so tied to them that you don't see when they're no longer your goals like I think I had a few things that were I'd always been my end goal and stayed that way for about three years and then I like checked in with myself and I was like that has not been my end goal for about two years but I've just refused to admit that that has changed or my values have changed or the type of life I want to build has changed or I've just gathered information that shows that that's not yeah what I want to do yeah I really like that you said that you know that it's it's really interesting because I also think that we feel a lot of obligation to be the person that we promised we would be a couple years ago I see this a lot with people in uni who are doing courses that they really don't want to do university is so expensive college is so expensive if you really hate it but you just feel this need to be that person and that's part of your goal like I do think that comes at the detriment that's like an example I always think of and it's like what you said like it hasn't been your goal for a while so why are you still pursuing it as if it is and like making yourself miserable um obviously that's a very privileged like standpoint to just be like just quit but it is like very expensive to be doing that if you don't love it yeah I mean it's the same with sunk cost fallacy with anything yeah like I think that the amount of people that are like oh well I studied law and so I actually kind of hate being a lawyer but like I've already studied it and it's like okay so you've done four five six years here you do know that hopefully you're going to be around for the next 60 yeah and working for the next 40 like when you really start to say you push another year and you push another year and you push another year you're only three years down the line like exactly quit now like get ahead quit everything yeah quit get ahead by going back but no but it's so i love that you said that because it is the sense of like the time will pass anyway and it's like yes you might be scared now but in three years time you might be looking back to this version of you right now being like i wish that he or she or they had just like made that decision for me yeah i don't same with relationships i will say to segue like if i always say this to people like if you're thinking like i really want to break up with this person let me just wait it out let me see if things change let me see if things change i just don't want to be single it's like that breakup's coming girl yeah so i speak a lot about this like I mean we as women obviously have quite a we have a fixation on the idea of like getting to 30 and being single if we want to you know plan a family or if we want to whatever it might be I obviously there's an element of that that like biologically fine but like the the amount of people I've heard be like I don't want to break up with this person because I do not want to be single and 30 and it's like okay so say you're 27 now then you push through another year you're 28 you push through another year you're 29 you push through another year you're 30 you push through another year you're only 31 like as in like do you think you can genuinely do you want to push through every year for the rest of your life push through 10 of those years you are only 37 yeah like it is a fallacy like it is a complete fallacy that this like arbitrary goal or thing that you absolutely do not want to do has any relevance in like your overall happiness and actually the fact that ripping off the as well as a plaster very inappropriate for an international audience ripping off the band-aid yeah can and technically stepping backwards quote-unquote can be the most beneficial thing and actually moving you forwards and closer to the life you want to build you are absolutely right and I really like what the way that you just explain those years of like 27 to 37 like just articulating that you think about it differently and I used to say this when I was single like I would much rather be like single at 35 and find the love of my life than be like 50 and starting all over again because I you know stayed with the person that I didn't because I didn't want to be single you're staying with somebody out of fear of of something like that is that is from a place of fear you might not be fearing them but you are fearing something and I don't think that love is love doesn't really grow in those circumstances right that's like a tale as old as time and I think when we think about it differently and you realize that it's also kind of a disservice to them as well I will say like I think it just there will be a residual unhappiness on both ends that's going to happen and don't you don't have to think about them like think about you and think about the fact that if you left and you never know what could be around the corner like three months later you could meet the love of your life or maybe five years later you could meet your best friend that you wouldn't have met if you'd stayed in that relationship even if you're still single like there is so much time to figure it out and so much time to meet people like no one goes through life not meeting like at least somebody even if it's a platonic soulmate that will make them feel sane and i yeah like i said i just feel like when you stay because you're scared of being single at 30 it's you're still staying out of fear even if it doesn't feel like 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45:44I'd love to talk about what you think people struggle with most when it comes to relationships in their 20s. I so obviously I get so many questions about this so many the biggest one I think is a heartbreak and thinking that you're never going to find anyone better. And that also really relates as to when to leave. When is this relationship done? And how do I find the courage to kind of like walk away because it is courageous? And also when it comes to relationships is the sense of like not meeting the timeline. And it happens in two senses. it happens for people I think especially people who have never been in a relationship and they feel like they're missing out they feel like everyone else is having these like beautiful wonderful experiences and they're not and then there's people who have been in a long term relationship and they've broken up at 30 or they've broken up at 28 or they've broken up at 32 and they're like I'm starting over again and I didn't want to be doing this so but I will say like everyone has their own unique thing that they're really struggling with when it comes to this you can have like the happiest relationship and still be thinking about fertility and still be thinking about finances and still have doubts like there is this element of like relationship OCD as well that I think happens with a lot of us where we're like okay is this relationship perfect is this who I want to be with and I think that's that is a little that is normal to think that but I don't think it's normal to be like I'm just staying because I don't want to walk away right definitely like there is this it's definitely not right to assume that when you're in a relationship everything's going to be amazing all the time in every single area that's just like completely unrealistic it's not in your life it's not in relationships it's not in friendships but also at the same time knowing which of those things do have to be enough good for you to stay Yeah, yeah, literally.

47:45And that's the thing. I always like to say this to people is like, you're allowed to have doubts in a relationship, like especially early on, like you're allowed to have a few anxieties that this person might not be the one. Like I actually think that's normal. I actually think it's really normal to be like, and I'm sure there are people listening to this being like, what is this girl talking about? Like, no way. But if you don't really reflect and think about whether this person is right for you, are you just like daydreaming through your relationship? Or are you just in the honeymoon period?

48:15Yeah. Also really valid. Yeah. See, I think I just, oh, I just exited my, like, I'm still in my honeymoon period. But I definitely exited, like, my all in, like, my big doe eye honeymoon period. And, yeah, I'm going to be honest. Like, I did have a moment being like, okay, like, let's really sit back and just think, is this person who I want in my life? It literally took me a minute for me to be like, yeah, of course. Yeah. but that's so true and I think that one an important like thermostat for to have like in a relationship is like if I can't see any negatives in this person I'm probably not thinking right like as in like I'm probably not thinking right that might be because it's the honeymoon period that might be because they're really manipulative that might be because I have low self-esteem and I put other people on pedestals like if you cannot see any negatives in someone like genuinely you can't see any negatives yeah that's probably a wider issue and I think that the like not making decisions in honeymoon period all of that like so so so oh my god yeah the amount of friends who I love dearly who I've seen move in with their partners after six months of dating don't do that don't do that you're not that you're not going to be the same person as you are two and a half years in when you actually like can see flaws and when you i feel like i'm going to speak for you here and if i'm completely wrong please tell me to shut up but like when you're saying if you can't say anything wrong on your partner we're not saying like oh yeah he actually like yeah he is narcissistic so that's a good thing like i can find something wrong with him because i've been looking for a narcissist this whole damn like he can't read like i don't know like like there are certain things where it's like no wait wait wait but like oh my god I really hate that he doesn't do his dishes there's one you know like oh okay just those small things like you should I do think it's kind of healthy to like oh my god 100 not be all the time like completely like smitten in love can do no wrong with your partner yeah and I also think it's a good pointer to attachment style because if you if you genuinely can't see any wrongs in that partner likelihood is you have an anxious attachment style yeah you have an anxious attachment style and you are being appropriately fed according to it in terms of like which is great in some ways but actually likelihood is that you haven't quite stabilized into a secure attachment style which everyone should in my opinion aspire to in any relationship and like there's a lot of data on the fact that you can become secure attachment in the right circumstance but you have to like actively work towards that yes but i do really think that like understanding your attachment style and understanding where you are on the anxious to avoidance spectrum is so important especially when working out your future because if you are making decisions you might be way past the honeymoon phase but if you are making decisions still in an anxious attached kind of state then you may well be making decisions purely as you say out of fear of therefore not having someone or whatever it might be.

51:29That's exactly right and you said this amazing thing which is that you can actually change your attachment style. Also the science tells us that most of us are actually securely attached but we do have moments of insecure attachment and that's something I like to point a distinction between is yes you have a general attachment style but if you've just come out of a terrible relationship or situationship that has left you looking left and right, unsure of what's happening unsure of whether this person is actually actually cares about you and wants you it is very normal for you to go through a period of anxiety or a period of ambivalence but I think getting back to that stability and that security is something that everybody needs to do in their 20s and if you haven't actually thought about it and you haven't actually sat with yourself and thought what are the patterns that I continually see in my relationships that are actually causing me harm are there actually things that i that i'm doing that i'm repeating and then am i having the same fights am i you know every is every relationship ending at three months is there something that i could be doing better for my happiness and for finding somebody that's right for me like there is everyone should do that at least once even if it's a bit hard to look in the mirror yeah so how do you do that like if you find because i feel like people tend to do that if they're the type of person who does do that how do you start to look at those things and i don't want to say fix them but like become self-aware on them i think but firstly it's like take a trip down memory lane have a bit of it like a history lesson with yourself is there a pattern is there a preference and is there a pattern for certain types of people and certain types of behavioral dynamics for example do you always find yourself with people who really love bomb you at the beginning and then really draw back or do you always find that it gets to like six months and then suddenly you're like oh my god this is too much I need to get out of here or that you get really nitpicky and you're having all these like really stupid arguments actually be honest with yourself and look at like look at those three things like how did the relationship begin how did the relationship end what were the major problems and if you're still with that person what are the major problems and is that a can I draw a link either between the past and or I like the past of you and that person's relationship or my past relationships and then I think really get into the depths of like why do I think this happens is this a defense mechanism am I trying to protect myself from something is it like an insecurity that's like keeps manifesting in the exact same way and I do think that you can have a bit of honesty with yourself without blame right like you can acknowledge that there are things that you might not be doing right and still love yourself yeah like a hundred percent and we give that grace to other people we don't necessarily give it to ourselves like it's really easy to see a friend and be like oh yeah they're just a little bit like that like they do have a tendency to do that or whatever but like they're such a good person they're such a good person and we also at the same time really struggle to be self-aware sometimes because self-awareness leads to blame rather than just like acknowledgement like if you're finding out something about yourself and it's making you like bang your head against the wall because you're like I'm so stupid and I need to fix this like that's not productive like that's not helpful yeah and then that often leads to you finding out less about yourself because you so don't you want to hide from those things but like understanding that your specific flaws or tendencies aren't like a flaw of you as a human like they don't make you a worse person they don't make you unentitled to self-love and therefore being able to act on them I feel like is one of the most like valuable things we can build for ourselves yeah and also it just adds texture and color also some of my favorite kinds of people are the people who are like yeah this is something that I'm working on yeah who can be like yeah I'm sorry like I'm I know I'm being a little bit flaky but I'm just I'm working on that I love that and I'm like yes and also I think we should really like I try and normalize sharing things like that because I think it takes away from me being meaner to myself yeah like you know when you're having like a bad day and it's because you're like jealous or because you're like like there's something about it and you just happen to be like oh yeah like I'm and then I'll always I try and before I've even like said anything or before I've even been snappy I've been like I'm in a bad mood today because I'm jealous of this or like whatever and like I feel like it's not necessarily about taking the stigma away from it but it's about like adding the layer of self-awareness and like adding like removing me kind of feeling bad about the fact that I'm not that I'm someone with flaws and I feel like it just it helps you get closer as you say like you love people who say actually I'm working on this I feel like the more of us who could say actually I'm working on this like Imagine if everyone just said that about their things that weren't so good.

56:34Everyone would be so much nicer and happier and aware of the fact that we all have flaws and also aware of the fact that that person that's really fucking pissing you off is not that bad a person. Maybe they're just going through some shit. Yeah, I'll say one. I literally did this with a friend the other day and I was like, yeah, I'm over committing at the moment. I'm really sorry. I'm working on that. And that's why I canceled plans. And she was like, oh, thank you for being honest with that. or like to Tom my partner I was feeling really disconnected from him and I was like listen I'm really sorry I'm just like I'm I'm like having trouble focusing because I'm distracted by my phone and I like there's something that I really want to respond to and I know you know I was like I know I said no work after this time I'm working on it yeah and he was just like okay thank you like it's this accountability that you have with yourself and with others and it's okay to be like I'm not the most perfect person yeah and then others people feel like feel safe to do that in front of you as well and it's just like a beautiful sharing moment how do we then date with intention without kind of dating with too much like need or obsession to ticks tick off certain goals by certain times yeah it's a really interesting question because I think that it's very easy to be like see the rest of our life as something in which we can work towards a goal that we have and want to apply that to dating but we can't do that with other people right like you might meet someone fantastic and be like they're the one and my plan is to get engaged in four years and they're like actually I never want to get married I never want to have children and I never want to you know I can't be that for you and it's really hard to apply your rules and your regulations to other people so instead what I would say in terms of walking the line between being intentional and also just being open is just have a clear idea of what you want but that doesn't need to be completely and utterly like stringent so have a clear idea of like five things I always say five things that you really want in a partner and then five things that would be like okay like you would you would really like them but they're they're they're not deal breakers if they don't have them five things that you really don't want and have a clear idea of those three categories so the five things in your first category are things that you know that you would not be happy with this person if they were to be like that it might be like that they're a certain religion and that you might not want to date somebody outside of your religion I think that's totally understandable it might be that they're not a vegetarian and you are somebody who you know you don't want to be seven steak at your wedding like just values they want kids that's a big one they want to get married and that we have like the same kind of career like something is aligned and I think when you and then of course like your non-negotiable cycle would be really nice if they were really active but actually that's not like a big thing they could not be and I'd still love them or or I'd really like for them to be ambitious but actually if they want to be like a house husband that's so sexy like yeah go off and then and then the five categories of the five final things of like okay they like can't have a gambling addiction like they can't have mummy issues like the things that you're like no this is not going to work that makes it more clear where it's like you have a sorry I used to be a consultant so this is like me getting McKinsey style yeah I literally I'm like so I just think that if you have a framework I'm just gonna do a little diagram yeah yeah PowerPoint presentation seven slides that's all you need but yeah just have a framework instead of like rules for yourself like don't feel too much pressure to like have somebody who is exactly like the perfect height perfect eye color perfect everything have a bit of fun with it can i say one other thing i know i've been talking for a bit go on dates with people who you don't think your type because oh my gosh it will surprise you and you will find like you might meet the most like wonderful people like my current partner not my current my partner i'm ready to replace it the love of my life next week's one yeah well he's actually very different no like the love yes i'm i'm dating out of my comfort zone no like the love of my life i would not i almost didn't go on a date with him because i was like uh he lived really far away he lived like two hours away from me which in australia like he lived outside of sydney he lived in wollongong which if you're australian you'll know what i'm talking about it's kind of fun and i almost was like no that's not gonna work because i want somebody who lives in newtown i want someone who lives in my suburb in like my area and i did it anyways and i like suddenly was like oh my god this person is like literally the love of my life like we're so perfect together and compatible and he challenges me in every way so date the people that you don't typically think that you would date as well no I think that's great advice and I think that as well like in every other part of our lives we're quite good at being like oh well I've tried that three times and it didn't work so I'm not gonna do it again yeah whereas with dating we're like cool I've tried that three times didn't work here's another one my god who's like oh my god like I always imagine if every time you went into your driveway you like smashed into the wall surely you would try to go through a different direction like surely you would learn to adjust like that's the same with dating right it's so true and it's so weird that we have that approach to like that's one of the areas I mean I think I can answer why it is for myself or like in my mind it feels like so much of why we date and what we go for is based on past either trauma or like things that have gone wrong and like we date therefore as you say out of fear to like protect ourselves from like being alone or from being with someone who's too present or from being with someone who you know like we date out of I don't know we build relationships often to fill gaps that are based on things that have happened to us otherwise so like I don't know there's so much data on how there's that really really really good TED talk I've watched it multiple times I think so interesting it's basically all about how you are attracted to people based on your childhood trauma or things that didn't go right or whatever it might be so like if you had a really overbearing parent you're likely to go for someone who's really like overbearing and like over communicative or like or if you had parents that were really absent you'll generally go for really avoidant people or whatever it might be which i think is an interesting concept as a whole and i do think some people are the opposite they go for the complete opposite when it's not necessarily what they need but the whole idea is based on the fact that we are attracted to the pain that we know like we feel like so for example I'm airing my dirty laundry here um I like my family's like not tight-knit at all and I'm like very I don't know spent a lot of time like on my ones growing up and so I have always gone for like very avoidant people like I've always gone for very avoidant because I wouldn't know what to do if they were overbearing and too loving like I'm comfortable with someone being like I love you and then disappearing for a month you know and so that would be what I would go for because I was like obviously internally not me actually saying this to my friends but like internally obviously I was like well that makes like that's fine I can deal with that because I'm used to that I've always had that and so I I remember watching that for the first time and finding that so interesting because I was like oh my god that explains so much why I constantly go for those people because I am aware what it feels like to have that avoidance and therefore I know how to self-soothe in that situation I don't know how to self-soothe in any other so actually where whereas actually like a lot of the work obviously you need to do is to be able to bring you back to this neutral state so that you choose people based on who you want to be with rather than basically aggravating your trauma it's the devil that we know right that's what the whole thing comes back to is as humans you like describe it so perfectly we feel so much comfort with what is familiar and it doesn't challenge us because we know the story we know the narrative they'll love us and leave us even if that's a terrible outcome it still feels comfortable and it still feels consistent and we know what is going to happen which makes us feel safe even if the opposite is actually occurring so again we go back circle back to like the person that you might be trained to love might not be the person that's right for you and if you're the first example of love even if it's a familial love is your family I always say to people choose somebody that you want to love you the way that someone is going to love your child and I know that sounds really really strange but if you think about it it's like okay so yeah maybe you do eventually want to have kids maybe you don't but if you do and if you think about this this version of you this this baby version of you how would you want them to love you how would you want somebody to love your offspring because maybe they will end up loving your offspring that way and that actually undoes a lot of the generational trauma right because you're going to be if the theory goes that we we learn how to love from our parents your children are going to learn how to love from you so why not choose somebody that's going to help them on a good path and it also just like I think refocuses you on what you actually deserved rather than what you received yeah that's so funny because that was actually the real moment where I realized that I was just like going for the wrong people over and over because I was like oh I'm going to create the childhood that I that you had right which like sob story fine but like as in like emotions i'm really good at living on yeah i love you're like you know what we're doing sorry can i just quickly say this there's this like concept in psychology that's like the last minute like trauma dump but like right before like a conversation will finish they'll be like oh yeah by the way like my mom died and i feel like you just did that like we're wrapping up and you're like yeah family trauma and you just like it's so interesting i actually had a real like conversation with myself when i was realizing that like it was one thing to do that to myself over and over to to like replicate that situation but to do that to what I want my future family to be I was like no you know like that doesn't and isn't that so funny that we can often stop doing things for other people that literally don't even exist and we won't stop doing them for ourselves yeah well if you want to think about in the way of like think about how your your inner child deserved to be loved and choose somebody based on what your your childhood version of you deserved and i want to quickly talk about i've heard you speak about the scarcity effect within relationships yeah and i'd love to just hear like a little bit of that from you yeah so i think when this comes back to dating right and reaching 30 and feeling like oh my god like i haven't met the run yet like when i'm running out of time there is the sense that when and when something is scarce it feels more valuable so when you feel like there aren't many good people out there to date suddenly you come across somebody that's like kind of 75 % there and you're like okay yeah great that's I need to lock that down I'm gonna date that person even though I know they're not right for me because there isn't you know this isn't what I that isn't what I really want isn't out there it's like when you're really really hungry and you're like okay so like maybe like 500 meters down the road is like this pizza place and there's really nothing else around so I'll just eat the pizza even though I really don't like pizza even though I'm gluten intolerant like I have to like I'll have to go there because there's not enough there's a scarcity of things so I feel more value I assign more value to the thing that is there that's a basically a long-winded way of also explaining how when there is somebody who is giving you not much you know just kind of bread crumbing, leaning you on, you know, drawing you in, pushing you away.

1:08:47You're like, ah, their time is scarce. They're a valuable person because they never have time for me. They must be somebody who's pretty good. So suddenly your value of them and your attention and your appreciation of them like skyrockets. It goes like way up because they have poised themselves as somebody who is scarce and therefore like somebody who has something to give. This is Hannah Burner from Giggly Squad. O-Pill is the first over-the-counter daily birth control pill available in the U.S. Let's be real, getting a birth control prescription is not always easy and it's so much admin. In fact, about a third of women face barriers to access prescription birth control.

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1:10:50Only at McDonald's for a limited time. Prices and participation may vary. So something to watch out for. Like if you find yourself drawn to somebody who is kind of like going hot and cold, it is because of that cognitive bias. It's because of the scarcity effect. That's so interesting. And I'm actually so livid because we really need to end this episode. I'm only the best time. Can we do another one? Come on my show. I would love to. We're talking about chat. Yeah, because we've talked about, we've talked a lot about relationships and we've talked a lot about life plans. I want to talk about friendships.

1:11:27I want to talk about confidence I want to talk about overachieving I want to talk about business yeah we'll have to do it again so we have much to discuss we do so before we end I would love to know what the best piece of advice is that you have ever been given oh my god you know what this feels like a job interview I'm like get it right if you don't get it right we're not actually gonna do that other episode yeah oh yikes i think the best piece of advice i've ever been given is like do something because you love it not because other people think that it's important and i just think that that is it applies to everything applies to work love life money it's important to you if you love it it doesn't really matter what other people have to say no i think that is so valuable and so true and i think if a lot of us held that up to some things that we were doing right now we'd realize i know right maybe maybe not it's wild it's wild well i think that is the perfect place well actually usually i say i think that's the perfect place to end i don't think it's the perfect place to end because i want to keep going so we will we're gonna do this again but thank you so much for coming on you have been amazing i feel like we could talk for days weeks months and years and yeah i really appreciate the work that you do within space because you've helped me understand my own brain thank you so much and thanks for having me on the show

1:13:03went to break in yeah so there's lots of cool ways that you could use your power that are just ugly and i want to end by asking you because i think there's a huge amount of interesting and actually very actionable psychology that you kind of clearly carry with yourself every day and impart on other people. I want to ask, out of everything, what do you think is the best piece of advice that you've been given or that you would give to the masses to be able to kind of use in that every day? Know yourself. My mother, when I told her I wanted to play in the NBA after 45 minutes of a practice. She said one of the most frustrating things I'd ever heard, son, would you recognize your soul in the dark?

1:13:54I mean, even as I say that, my ears are getting hot because I was so mad that she said, what is it? I've just told you I'm going to play in the NBA. Just tell me yes. It's amazing. Would you recognize your soul in the dark? And it's like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. And she was this idea that many of us, we go through life so focused on what we want to do that we spend no time thinking about who we are and that if we stripped away the the labels of i'm six foot nine i'm black i'm a man i'm a brother i'm a father i'm a whatever it is you strip these things away and you suddenly realize you couldn't describe yourself any differently than any one of the people around you but that's so key knowing yourself is key to success in life because many people are self-sabotaged by things that they just never acknowledged existed.

1:14:42I'm incredibly lazy. It's a fundamental tenet of who I am. But I played in the NBA, and my days are busy and productive because I've built systems that stop me, because I am obedient also. So if it's in the diary, I will do it. Know yourself is so important. Most people don't. If you ask human beings, they will tell you, 95 % of people will say, are highly self-aware. Now we automatically know that's rubbish, right? Because 95 % is not, that's just not real. But there's a wonderful researcher called Tasha Yurik, and she does studies on self-awareness. And she finds of that 95%, when you do a little bit of probing, about 10 to 15 % are actually self-aware.

1:15:26That's the first damage that comes, the idea that you think you're self-aware, but you're not. And the second damage comes because people who are self-aware are often what they call internally, you talked about before, knowing your values and your principles internally self-aware they aren't externally self-aware they don't realize that their values don't meet the world in the way they think they do the example i always give is that is the person you meet who says the thing you need to know about me is that i'm direct and honest it's like they know their internal values but everybody listening to this has met that person that man usually and we all know that that person is cruel and callous and careless because his version of direct and honest comes across to others in a way that is not direct and honest, but cruel and callous and careless and thoughtless.

1:16:14And that's why self-knowledge is so important, because you need to know not just who you are, how you're met by the world around you. Well, I think that's a very powerful place to end. Thank you so much. Such a pleasure. Thank you. This has been fantastic. And I also would just like to say that if you ever need another business idea you should start a sleep stories business because you have the most calming voice I have ever heard in my life thank you as someone who listens to a lot of sleep stories I think they need you in the business I will do I will consider it my team I do send them to sleep so well thank you so much thank you