Ep.49 A Rare Behind The Scenes Into REFY'S Jess Hunt + The Untold Story Of How She Shook The Beauty Industry

0:00I remember I just like I was like panicking oh my god I've put so much money into this now like Like what happens if we just end up with all of these brow sculpts and nobody wants them? Going from that dynamic to then having a bigger team, honestly being like such a big adjustment. Progress that we've made is insane and the growth we've had is insane. Even to think that I'm sat here now with you talking about what I have achieved. People are like, well, you don't do beauty. Why are you launching a beauty brand? It's such a daunting thing. I know you put so much in behind the scenes, like so much like financially, so much time.

0:31I'm like, so by the time it actually comes to launch it, you're a little bit like, oh my gosh, do people actually have to see this? Someone had sent me a picture. Like, I can't believe this. And it just blew up and went crazy. So I don't actually know if I've shared this story before, but.

0:54What is up, guys? And welcome back to Working Hard, Hardly Working. Why am I rapping? Today's episode is incredibly exciting. we have Jess Hunt on today. I personally have followed Jess's journey for a while and I've loved, loved, loved, loved, loved what she's done, especially over the past few years with Refai, but I've also not found many like podcasts and stuff on her. So she was one of the top people I wanted to get on here because I really just wanted to hear about her story from her and what the different parts of her journey and her career have been like. I think she is, and I literally am so far up her ass in this episode saying just how much I feel like she is such a good person to represent how you don't need to put yourself in a box you can constantly keep evolving your career and I think she's done that so incredibly well she worked as a PA at the NHS but then she started doing Instagram but not really properly doing it until she was scouted as a model through Instagram for a bit then did Instagram then became a business owner and I think yeah sure we hear about that a lot like we hear about those types of things but I'm pretty sure like when I used to follow Jess before she even started refi I would have thought yep great she's made it she's a really great influence and blah blah and yet she kept evolving and yet she was able to direct her career in the way she wanted to go based purely off the fact that she just wanted to do more and more and I think that's a really valuable lesson I sound a little bit woo woo right now being like constantly evolving sorry for the American accent anyway I really enjoyed this episode I've never heard Jess speak about a lot of these things so it was great to really hear her journey from her and how her career has got so astronomically successful as always if you do enjoy this episode please make sure if you're listening on this audio can you go right now and go and actually follow it because you keep listening to this and I don't think you're actually following it I think it's something like less than one percent of people actually follow the podcast they listen to but it helps me hugely and it helps us get amazing guests and it helps my ego so thank you so much I hope you have a lovely day I hope you enjoy the episode and that is all I have to say goodbye

2:57thank you so much for coming thank you so much for having me I'm so excited I'm very excited to have you here I feel like we've tried to get you on here for so long yeah it's been a long time coming yeah there's been like a lot of like diary bashing you know like right time all of that but I feel like we have so much to talk about. I feel like when I look at your career, there is so much to talk about that actually, you know, we've just briefly talked about it in terms of the evolution of keeping on evolving within your career and generally like forcing your career in the direction you really want it to go.

3:30And I feel like you've done an absolute like class act of doing that really well. Thank you so much. I mean, even to think that I'm sat here now with you talking about what I have achieved is crazy because I think I always say to myself like if I could tell my younger self where I'd be right now and I'm sure you feel the same it is crazy because I guess both of us we did start on Instagram I know YouTube like influencers as such and obviously the evolution is crazy and I think yeah I just I always envisioned myself doing my own thing but I never expected it to be this great and as special to me as what it is oh well that's so nice to hear and you've I mean you've honestly done it so well and we're going to deep dive into all of it today get to the bottom of how you did it the different inflection points what you feel like the big decisions were that really like tipped your career in the direction it's gone because I feel like again you're like you're in a super saturated industry and it's really easy to look at an industry like the industry you're in specifically and kind of be like oh no space and I'm sure there would have been times as well where you would have thought no there's no space like as in like there are so many people doing this there are so many people who like look amazing and wear amazing things and like do amazing makeup and like all of that where's my space and you've actually just been able to carve that out for yourself which I think is a huge talent but also so easy to think like it's just impossible no I feel you and I think that is probably something that I thought for a really long time and I guess kind of my niche was what a lot of people were doing it was always like sharing fashion that I was loving like makeup that I was loving but I feel like even if you look back to the very beginning of like my Instagram journey say like my makeup style hasn't really changed and I think my makeup look was always like quite glowy quite like natural I would say quite fresh so that was something that I was super passionate about and I just loved makeup in itself and I thought to myself I need to create products that I love that are easy to use that are just so simple but just give gorgeous results because I felt like there was a real big gap in the market for that at that time so that's kind of initially where the idea started from transitioning myself from just posting like outfits or makeup products I was loving to actually thinking no way I could do this myself and I could probably bring something my opinion slightly better to the market like how do I make this bigger like how do I rethink all of it so I want to go back to the beginning of your career and what you would you know I guess what you see is like the earliest point to what led to where you are now will you tell us a little bit about kind of like how you started yeah absolutely so my first proper job I like to call it I used to work in the NHS and I was a personal assistant to some doctors and that was so so amazing I actually loved that job um but alongside that I just this was a time where Instagram was like new probably we probably started around a similar sort of time I guess what year I honestly couldn't remember off the top of my head I must have been when I started posting a lot more regularly I must have been 20 and I'm 26 gonna be 27 now so that's yeah so it would have been similar time mine was like I started posting I think it was like 2015 yeah but we've had really similar timelines minds because I remember we started our businesses like almost exactly the same time as well yeah it's wild isn't it yeah like we're just going through life the progression together we should share notes yeah we should love that um but yes I was obviously doing my nine to five job loved it it was great and then alongside this I would just post on Instagram different looks I was loving different makeup styles that I was loving just kind of I didn't wasn't really taking it seriously and as I just said me and you kind of started at a time I guess where Instagram really wasn't a place to like make money or make a business out of it it's more just like that's fun I'll post it so that's kind of my initial starting point and then I do think the differences with starting now compared to starting back then for some reason whether it's the algorithm or whether it was just the buzz of a new app it was much easier to grow back then and I do think that does have a big impact if you are wanting to get into the industry this like today kind of thing but yeah so my following kind of grew and I was like oh gosh this is getting bigger getting bigger and I just carried on posting and then an Instagram brand reached out to me to say we'd love to send you some pieces like let me know if you'd like to have them and shoot them and I was like oh my gosh like free clothes I can take pictures of like the best thing ever literally I'll do 20 posts for you no I think I did Grace I actually think I did I was like yeah just keep it coming so I was just so excited because I loved clothes that was my passion and just to be able to shoot them and free clothes like I was so excited um then I can't remember when it was but I think a brand had reached out obviously my following's growing as well a brand had reached out to me to say would you like some free clothes so again I was like yeah love this brand would love it and they were like well what are your rates and I was like what do you mean what are my rates like what are your rates no I didn't even like understand that you could monetize your Instagram at this point so I don't remember what I charged my first post but I reckon it was like 20 pound a post and obviously I know a lot of people are clued up on the industry now and the industry has changed so much since then like what people charge for posts now is just insane so at that time I was like this is amazing I'm getting 20 pounded like per post and I'm getting all these free clothes so that's sort of when it started and I just feel like from then as I said it was much easier to grow back then it was kind of a knock-on effect so the more that I was posting for different brands they'd repost me I get their exposure from their following and it kind of just been 30 ,000 followers and at this time something really crazy happened to me so I don't actually know if I've shared this story before but it's on Google if anyone wants to see it.

8:59I had posed a picture in this dress, I'd bought this dress, it was beautiful, posted it online, I was actually going out with my friends so I was like yeah post it, going out with my friends, whatever and then the next day or a few days later someone had sent me a picture of me in that dress but if you see on the image it's not my face this girl I don't know if you've seen it Grace this girl completely photoshopped my face off and put her face no I need to show you her face on it but the skin tone was perfectly matched it looked more like her than it looked like me it was just wild so anyway I saw this picture and I just found it hilarious yeah this is so funny like I can't believe this and I just remember sharing it on Twitter when I had Twitter and it just blew up and went crazy like I just remember being at home in my kitchen and I think I had like kiss fm on or capital fm and the presenters were like oh this girl on instagram has been like catfish and this was when catfishing had become like right yeah a bigger thing and I just remember hearing it on the radio and I was like oh my gosh that's crazy and then I think over this course of a week I'd grown like my following like doubled and really yeah because it became such a strange no it would only happened to me it was just wild anyway so never found out who this girl who this girl was sorry it was just a really really random thing obviously it was part of my journey so I can't miss it yeah yeah really so my following was going by this point had that crazy blip and then I believe someone at pretty little thing Amy in reddish friend of mine had reached out to me in this before I knew her to say um have you ever modeled before I'd love to do something with you like love you love for you to come into pretty little thing so at this time pretty little thing was definitely one of my favorite brands like I loved what they were doing and I think times were very different then um so I was like oh my gosh yeah amazing like of course I want to come so and you'd never considered modeling or never like gone down the route of modeling yourself um I I'd thought about it and I'd had been to castings in the past nothing really ever came of it so I just thought oh not it's not meant for me like I'm fine with that it's not it was never really my dream to do that like right so I just thought okay that's fine obviously you got this email and I was like yeah I'd love to come up so I remember me and my mum went to pretty little thing like she dropped me off there that day and I was like see you later mum like she just went out for the day in Manchester is that's where they're based and I was in there and I remember they like did my hair and makeup and I was like oh my gosh this is like serious this is serious what is going on um and then I remember they got me to shoot e-com and I was like oh great yeah I had a great day thanks so much guys see you later and then I just thought oh that was a one-off like nothing will ever get paid for it yeah I did okay well that's another thing because I remember in the back and forth email Amy was like how much how much your day right again like I said to you this whole thing I just didn't know I just didn't know so I was like what's your budget because I just didn't know um and I remember I got paid 500 pound for that day which that's a lot of money yeah I was just like oh my gosh like this is crazy as if I'm working with my favorite brand yeah money from doing this also so interesting to show the change in times as well because obviously there are model to earn a huge amount of money but usually now a lot of models earn the majority of their income through social media through doing things that like you know modeling the stuff but on their social media rather than as like an e-com shoot in particular which is usually generally like lower rates just shows like the difference in time as well for you like you must have been like what the fuck I know I was like what per day like and she was like yeah for the day I was like I thought it was like for about 10 days yeah literally you're like I thought I was here for the next few weeks Yeah, exactly.

12:33So yeah, did that. And then I left, thought nothing of it, had the best time. And then I remember I got an email a few weeks later saying, we want you to come back. And I was like, okay, great. I'll come back. Long story short, I was then working with Pretty Little Thing as their econ model, I would say, for quite a few years, to be honest. Really? So like a prolonged kind of... Yeah, it was kind of one of them where there was nothing written in stone. There was no real agreement when they needed me, I'd be there. And I think towards the end, I kind of used to shoot with them I'd say four times a week so wow yeah it got a lot it did get a lot but I loved it it was a great time for me off the back of that I was very fortunate to be offered a collection with Pretty Little Thing and I was able to design my own collection with them and as I said before Pretty Little Thing back then was a brand that I was obsessed with and it was just I don't know it was a bit of a full circle moment for me yeah for sure and obviously that was a completely different time so I feel like that was a really special moment for me at that time I think it was very like the top thing you could do as an influencer was to have a collection with like a fast fashion brand like I've talked about it on here before that like at one point I remember having like you know when you have kind of beginning of the year sit down with your management you're like what would I really like to do and I remember mine was like oh I want like a collection with like boohoo or pretty little thing or whatever it would be because I've spoken about it in the way that like I've said that I remember the year after being like you know how like your goals change so like so quickly and you're kind of like you don't even realize until you check back in with them you're like oh is that like something that I'd kind of want or whatever it might be but I do remember at the time like the thing oh it was like only the best input like the creme de la creme or being asked to do their pretty little thing collection no I know and it was like the thing I know and I think the exact same for me like I had a like that was my goal that was my god I know I was there always for e-commerce remember thinking that is like the the end goal here right imagine if I could do that it'd be insane and as you said that was many years ago now in such a different time and I like what you said there about always like listing your goals and then like looking back on them in the future and I recently did that a couple years ago and I like looked back and this was before I'd started refi and my goals were like to have to have another collection with somebody else and I just remember looking back on it and having success from refi which I'll go into I'm thinking oh my gosh like so far from yeah yeah I do think it's that element as well like you said to be to be a successful influencer you need to have a collection with someone I think we were all just conditioned to think that that was success and I think that's generally like how we see success as like a society you see you you template it based on like other people who are doing similar things to you what is the highest thing they've done and what is like what makes sense for that kind of trajectory and I think like you only start because I think one of the things you've done so well that I spoke about briefly but before is that you've kind of shaped your career in that in the direction you wanted it to go I reckon at that time if you'd have sat there and be like oh I want to have a company that has like x amount in like global sale you would have literally been like fuck off not to say that you wouldn't have been able to do it but like you would have literally it wouldn't have been on your radar and I think that is one of the really important things about like constant goal setting and constant re-evaluation of gold re-evaluationing sure constant re-evaluating goals and just kind of like checking back in with like what you want because that's how things start evolving to far beyond you could even ever like imagine at the beginning like it was the type of thing that would make you laugh at the beginning it's so so true and I know that well I know you've had Jenna on here before and she briefly touched on it saying this was only ever meant to be a side hustle and it really was so like you just said that was never even on my goals I was just hoping we'd sell the first quantity do you know what I mean the first batch um anyway so I'll speed up my story so I used to work with PLT that was great and I would do it all over again just based on the fact that they really did give me a platform and I had some of the best times with that team like it was it was a really good time but I as you said like the goalposts have changed like things are a bit different now and obviously I have other things to focus on I feel like I always carried on being an influencer just because shooting content is my passion like I love putting an outfit together I I love like styling looks.

16:42I love that. Like that will always be a real big thing for me. And I think that's been a constant throughout my entire like career, I guess, on social media. Yeah, for sure. And then I was really fortunate again. I guess this is why Pretty Little Thing is such a big part of my entire journey. I actually met Jenna, who's my now business partner at Pretty Little Thing. Oh, okay. I didn't know you met Heather. Yeah, so we'd met on a shoot there one day. They used to get me to do all sorts. They won't mind me saying that because they did. I remember I had to create like a Halloween look. and I'm sure a lot of you guys will know, I know you know, Jenna also has another brand called Shrine.

17:14Yeah. So they were really famous for doing the incredible like face jewels and like glitter body, different bits and bobs. Like it's insane. And one of the Halloween looks involved Jenna's face jewels. So she came in that day to help me like create the look or whatever. And me and her, we'd spoke previously before on email and I'd known her team for a long time just because they used to gift me and different things. And there's actually a shoot of me, my first ever like photo shoot that I did before plt it was just like an influencer one and i was literally doing the festival edit for i think it was miss pap at the time and i was literally like head to toe in shrine and it's just crazy because that was the first time jenna saw me and it was my first ever shoot but it also goes to show you never know like any because also i've had a few times now where like i've met a few people in the industry that like i've met them in a few different roles just like completely separately and you really never know like the types of people who you could meet at any one time they might have been you know as you said at that point like gifting you she's now your business partner and you own a huge company together like if you would again we keep saying it but if you would have told me that I just wouldn't have believed you because she was just this this girl on this email that I used to speak to because I liked her brand like I just never even knew how important she would be yeah but also like I think another big proponent for just like one foot in front of the other type thing because like at the time it feels like you needed to go through your whole journey and the different steps to be able to get to where you are now and I feel like that's quite comforting when you look at it in terms of like the way our life works out for us in the way that actually at the time you wouldn't you weren't meant to know Jenna in that way no like in the least woo woo way like you weren't meant to like be doing a business together at the time you were meant to be like you know just being in the same industry and like talking about her business and like all of that whereas like the way it's shaped now I know it's crazy so yeah I'd met Jenna on the shoot and that was kind of the first time that I'd shown her like my makeup and kind of how I did it she was really interested and obviously now I know why um yeah she's like you're coming home with me yeah she's like I'll take that one but no we really got on from like the moment we actually met each other in person and she was actually someone that I could speak to a lot about different pieces of advice within the industry and yeah she obviously was a good friend of mine um and then it wasn't until another shoot that we on together but she again was asking me about my makeup and in particular she was asking me about my eyebrows and I feel like prior to this I was always quite well known on Instagram for having quite big brows like I've always had naturally quite big brows that was always my thing but um I was showing her how I did my brow routine and I was literally using at that time three gels two different brushes just to achieve like that brushed up look and then I was doing at this time obviously e-com so I was changing all day long like I remember the makeup artists would do my makeup at PLT and they were great but I'd be like I need to do my own brows because I know I know they're going to move so that's kind of how that started and I was explaining to her how I did my brow routine and she was like that is wild like why are you doing all these different things just to create this look and I explained like each element to it and she was like oh okay okay okay and then we had lunch together that day like obviously on the shoot and she was like I feel like what you what you're doing here could be like a product because obviously she thinks like that you know what she's like she's just full of ideas she's super creative so I was like all right yeah and then yeah sure why not yeah sure why not and then we literally got I think it was her iPhone and we drew up what this brow scott would look like together and she was like I was explaining like what brush does what and why we'd need this and whatever it was and she was like oh my god wouldn't this be so cool and I was like yeah like wouldn't it be really cool and then we just sort of left it and it wasn't until a couple weeks later she then reached back out to me to say I've spoken to Danielle um who is now a product developer but also the product developer for Shrine at the time and um Danielle's presented this to one of the factories and they think they can create a sample for us so I was like okay I was like yeah brilliant let's do it yeah why not were you scared at all at this point about being like I think I was more naive at this point because I don't think I understood like like how to create a product basically right of course I thought oh great we've got this drawing we're gonna have it tomorrow and we can just start selling it you know I mean, I just didn't understand how production worked.

21:17So obviously because the Brow Scope is one of its kind, like the world first, I now know that we had to create like our own mould for them to even take us seriously in the first place. And obviously going to a big factory at that time, I know Jenna already had a relationship which helped massively. She'd be like, hi, we're going to be a brand. We've got this idea. Do you want to take a chance on us? Do you know what I mean? It just seems ridiculous now. And I think that that's like one of the misconceptions online from perhaps exterior to like a product based industry is that actually there is so much online that is very similar replications of each other because that's how product is generally made.

21:57If you're essentially making your own mold for something, the mold itself is incredibly expensive, but then you also need to have a huge MOQ, like a minimum order quantity. Not explaining this to you. No, no, no. imagine me being like yes by the way yes i'm with you no i'm literally backing everybody just i'm like yeah i know i know but literally i was like i don't want you to feel like i'm trying to explain this to you i want to say for context no um i think yeah so basically like what happens you then have to pay for the mold you have to obviously even get the mold like designed you have to get like you have to order a load for them to even make it with a new mold which obviously means you then have to have a huge amount of money from the beginning which is why like so many businesses start from a point that's so different to the point that they then get to and I think what's been so interesting about your journey with refi is you guys have always been about like from from an outside perspective it's always been about like solution-based and innovation-based stuff like it hasn't been about like we're just doing no a brow gel I think personally there would be no point in us doing that as you said before like the market I guess and even in the makeup industry is so saturated because there's thousands of brow gels that you can choose from right what's the point in us launching and we were in a fortunate position to be able to fulfill like the minimum um order as well at that time because jenna obviously had savings from previous things that she'd done like shrine and i'd saved from like my instagram as well so we were both in a really fortunate position where we could be like let's do this together and so did you both invest together in essentially starting the business we did yeah were you nervous at all that it would be like someone who was taking advantage or absolutely like that was a massive thing to me and I just remember thinking and I probably shouldn't make all my decisions off this but I do make a lot of my decisions based off like vibe like if I get a good vibe it's gonna be okay but if I don't get a good vibe then I just that will make me think this is not gonna be okay and that sounds so bad but you do need to trust your intuition especially with risks like that and I guess in business in general and I genuinely got such a good vibe from her but then I was like maybe we're just a bit giddy just like maybe just like lust maybe this is not what you're doing like lust for the brow exactly maybe i just like get a bit carried away and i'm like i just want this for myself i don't even want to sell it i just want this was it i was like i just need this in my life like i'm just gonna have to do it regardless for everyone else the best businesses come out of like i think that like i wouldn't admit online that like no i didn't always want to start an activewear company like i didn't i wasn't like born being like oh my god i wanted to start an activewear company I only wanted to start it after I'd worked for a number of others and then realized like how much how many opinions I had and how I was literally like I must I must have annoyed them so much because literally I would email like every day being like these are the best leggings you do and you only do them in patterns and your seams are here like remove the side seam like please like yeah you know like all of this and they must have been like please stop but it like as in it was never like a burning desire from birth and I think that actually realistically the best businesses are started you know sometimes from those people who really you know always wanted to do that but also sometimes it's just getting so frustrated with the lack of solutions for what you want within an industry that you're like okay fine definitely no I think we're the exact same like I said about this whole crazy brow process and even down to my actual makeup products that I was using like there were still things I would change and I obviously can't email Chanel and say that bronzer I wish you would just do a bit of that because they're going to be like well they're not even going to look at it do you know what I mean so it's like I think I understood and exactly to what you said like there was certain things I'd want to change and there was gaps in the market I guess and just in like the product ranges that was already available to bring well I guess now refi to life but at that time it was just the brow sculpt right and to this day the brow sculpt is still our best seller so that goes to show like despite how far like refi has come in this time like the brow sculpt was created for a reason and it still has purpose it wasn't just like a like a flash in the pan kind of vibe and yeah I think that's when obviously when we launched the brow sculpt sorry back to what you said as well about the minimum orders I remember we had to place the minimum order and I remember I just like I was like panicking to my dad just saying like oh my god like I've put so much money into this now like and we've had to do this crazy order on top of all the sampling like what happens if we just end up with all of these brow scopes nobody wants them apart from me to do my brows i'm just gonna well this was the thing i was like i'll just use it forever but then obviously everything has a shelf life as well so yeah i remember me and jenna being like okay so these will go like go bad or like their shelf life date finishes on x date and i was like right so we've got that amount of time to get rid of them all like great like let's just make it happen i remember we were speaking to different retailers at this point and we didn't even have like a hard like sample to show these people were like trust us we have a thing yeah we've got this thing coming and it's gonna be really good at that time nobody knew so yeah it's just crazy and I think the order that we placed obviously was at a time felt a lot for us but we ended up selling out the browse sculpt within six weeks which was of launching yeah which is unreal insane imagining the types of minimum order quantities you would have had to put in I would have been completely blown away by like that quantity going on with that time before we go forward to the beginning of the refi journey I just want to talk about at this time when you were like sampling and everything and knowing that you're about to kind of have a business coming out how were you feeling about your current career as like an influencer and what you were generally doing in like the quote-unquote influencer world no definitely I feel like that was all I knew as well so obviously I know I used to have my job before in the NHS and that was amazing but I feel like I was just so used to like shooting content I do think that really helped in the beginning of starting refi just because a lot of our well we shot a lot of content like yeah it was all social first definitely like essentially to this day we still are very much like an influencer like led brand and like a social led brand I think that's so important to us so I do think that was a good thing at the very beginning but I also think as well I was very fortunate to have been like as an influencer in the in the industry sorry and have made friends along the way and it was people that when we were able to launch then who just wanted to support yeah based off the fact that it was like another influence as well and I just think that's one thing I do love so much about this industry I do feel like everybody or majority of people do love to support each other's thing because I think everybody in this industry does understand the struggle of like like obviously shooting all this content and sometimes it's not like you don't really make loads of money from it sometimes yeah you might do from like a post or a collaboration or whatever at this point were you worried at all about like how having a brand would be perceived from your kind of followers yes and no I think more internally maybe like a bit of self-doubt I think I was just really scared to actually I'm scared to actually launch a brand in the beginning because it is such a daunting thing I know that you you'll probably know as well you put so much in behind the scenes like so much like financially so much time like so much to know just obviously even creating the product that alone to get to the brow scout where it was where it ended up being before we launched was like a year and a half nearly two years so like a lot had gone in behind the scenes and then branding and all these different things so by the time it actually comes to launch it you're a little bit like oh my gosh do people actually have to see this like I kind of just did all of that and then yeah or do people just follow me because they like my like outfits like are they gonna care exactly and I remember we had to create like the Instagram handle and we couldn't get refi which is at r-e-f-y we can only get refi beauty and I remember when I was about to announce that I had a brand I was so scared to tag Refy Beauty in case people were like well you don't do beauty like why are you launching a beauty brand like you do like fashion like obviously like I said my makeup look hasn't really changed over time but now I think that was my own little internal like I guess insecurities or whatever it might have been but I think even now like makeup has transformed so much and I feel like there's days where I will do like a full face and I'll be like oh yeah look great but then there'll be other days where I'm like I'm just gonna put a bit of skincare on right of a brow and I still look great I think it's just evolved so much now that and one of our values at refi is like encouraging you to be your most confident self and I think that kind of is what makeup is to me like it's not like a certain look or it's not like a big like dramatic eye or a dramatic lip and if you want to do that amazing like as long as you feel like your most confident self yeah and I think essentially that is the value behind refi and kind of one of the reasons why we ended up taking refi just from like a product with a brow sculpt into this entire range of makeup and an entire beauty brand.

30:27Of course. And how did you overcome that self-doubt at that point of thinking, like, I can imagine seeing yourself in a certain box because you were in a certain box and because people always put us like, you know, in the way that they would describe us. And you at this point were an influencer. You've evolved now to be a business owner. How did you overcome that self-doubt that allowed you to kind of like project yourself out in that way? Because that is terrifying. I mean, the only reason I had the confidence to do that at the time was because I was like so young and naive that I was kind of like of course like why would I not like you know why wouldn't you find I love that though that is definitely more of that now I 100 % I wish I had more of that but that is so true I think it is just that like fearlessness but I do think for some reason I am I think my way I am as a person I am like I am a warrior so like this is why me and Jenna worked so well because she is the person that's like let's do it let's do it now and I'm like no no let's just hold on a minute let's actually look at having that balance it is in a partnership it is in a partnership for sure but no I think for me I was definitely very nervous to launch the brand obviously I have such a good relationship with my audience and I'm so so grateful for that because I feel like I was able to get their opinion on things without them even knowing at the very start so I'd be like customer research think about this and then people would like message me and I'd be like oh give me ideas and I'd be like yes like why didn't I think of that so definitely nervous but already had that good relationship so I knew I was never going to get a bad reaction because my audience is so lovely but then it almost just a bit like what you said like I just went for it and I think it's one of those very cliche piece of advice but like there's never ever going to be a right time I just remember thinking to myself there's never going to be a right time I'm just going to have to launch it it's going to be it will be fine like worst cases I'm going to be using the brow sculpt forever right exactly just me with a few multi-brow sculpts in 10 years exactly and um no honestly my audience's reaction at that time blew me away and as I said as well just those influencers that also supported me and just wanted to try the product and share it and for those that gave a good review of it I guess helped massively it was almost just like a because as well I'd never done anything like this I could never ever put anything out there that was so much me to get people's feedback and obviously there's going to be negative feedback that comes with everything in life but just to get people saying I love what you did there like I was just like oh this feels right this is what I was meant to do and I think having that reassurance I guess from the people that I was creating it for I don't know that just made it less scary and I know I had to launch it but it made it less scary once that happened.

32:57And so once you launched Refi how quickly did it become like something where you were spending a lot of your time on in comparison and to you know it being a little side project absolutely so I think it was probably we launched and it was that was a crazy whirlwind and then we went through a phase of I'd say about three months before we could even restock the brow sculpt so that was quite a quiet time essentially because obviously there was no product like I was still like talking about it and different things it was just like a launch it was very exciting but once we'd nailed the brow sculpt I decided with Jenna and the team that we could do other amazing products like it wasn't even before we launched the brand it was kind of like pre that we were like right okay if this is going to go well like we love what we've we all love what we've created let's have a go at some other products that we think we could do do well at and that's when we started working on the face collection which is now our cream bronzer blush and highlight and the duo brush just going to tell you all now I nearly we nearly didn't do the duo really we nearly didn't do it we were like creating it behind the scenes before we'd even launched and I remember saying to everyone I was like what is the point in us doing a brush like everyone's got a brush like right I used it and I was like no this is really good but what's the point to this day I think to a brush is like our second really yeah I don't know why we ended up doing it I think we did it because because one of the girls that was helping with the social content was like yeah but it looks really good in the flat lay okay let's do it let's go anything that's good for a flat lay is enough for me yeah okay that's fair point but yeah so I just think it's always the things that like you least expect and then And obviously we started developing the next collection and that was a big success when we launched there also.

34:34But I don't think we launched that collection until probably around six to eight months after launching the brows. As I said before, creating the brows sculpt, that took us nearly two years. So to create this face collection, which we were already creating pre-brows sculpt. And then the six to eight months, I guess, after we'd launched the brand, being able to launch that, our turnaround times, I'm sure you'll know, are quite long. because when you want to bring something out that is brand new and is a new formula and again working with the factory to them to make this new formula for you and like the constant back and forth with the testing as I said at the very beginning I was so naive to all of this I thought we'll do it we'll have it we'll just sell it like it's so so easy but no it was not like that at all so I guess that's when my life sounds very dramatic but started to change a bit because so much more of my time needed to be involved in the brand and just the testing and just the products in general and I was kind of the one that would always do all of the creative side of refires that kind of started becoming like a bigger and bigger thing as the brand grew but I would say as time went on I think the turning point was maybe a year to a year and a half ago so refire is going to be three this year I kind of realized like no this is this is something really good that we have here something that we really good that we have here another thing it makes me happier yeah more fulfilled than maybe shooting content does I still feel still love that I will always do that because yeah but more so I'll do that now and I know you probably relate to this when I when I think I look nice right when I've got a nice outfit rather than being like I must be you know I haven't posted today I should post today like because that was the thing wasn't it like you at one point should be posted like once a day like I felt like that was kind of what you were taught so no I think refi it definitely fulfills me I am just so grateful that I'm even able to have a job which is like refined because it sounds really silly obviously they're stressful times but it doesn't feel like work like it's so fulfilling how much time do you spend in the office now so honestly it just depends so I'm a commute from the office so I would say maybe in a month anywhere from at least two weeks I'd be in the office so but obviously I work remotely as well yeah yeah of course I don't know about you but I'm just on my phone constantly right and I don't I don't know whether you're the same but even silly things like if I do decide just to get embed and scroll on social media which i'll just be whatsapp in the team like all of the things oh my god we've seen this on tiktok why are we not doing it do you know right like we literally have like if you open my like dms it's literally like tala product tala socials tala like all of this and like every single thing meant to be having like a nice relaxing evening and i'm like love this ad love the way that they've done this love the way that they've done this a pr box literally really interesting don't like the way that they've done this but very interesting we should look at this and I'm like relax but it is true like I do think like with every job actually like social media has made the scope of work like has expanded the scope of work so much because your brain the way you it's like 24 hour news cycle like your brain is always so active even if it's like you know you're thinking about your relationship and then you see someone else's relationship you're thinking about your work you see like all of this like it creates this kind of like constant mechanism where like there's always something you can relate to that you probably shouldn't be thinking about absolutely but your brain's just programmed to think that way isn't it yeah like 100 miles per hour but so how did it feel going essentially almost like back to a desk job from something that you'd been able to I guess leave your desk job to be able to do full-time yeah I think that's actually been something that I've had to adjust to just because especially as an influencer you do spend a lot of time on your own like you essentially are on your own and in the very beginning for a lot of my like influencer career my mum was the one that shot on my pictures so I just remember really yeah so my mum would be there all the time and she'd be the one that'd be like right okay like just turn a little bit there do you know what I mean I would not be getting anywhere in my career with my mum shooting photos fucking hell I think my mum should do like a mum boot camp for really no she's so good next business exclusive absolutely sign up guys link in the bike no I'm joking no my mum was so good at taking pictures so then as refire started we were a much smaller team obviously at the very beginning so I'd say there's probably I laugh at it now but for example we're going on a shoot next week and I think I'm sounds crazy I'm taking like 10 people just to like shoot right which is crazy even for a shoot that's like a lot of people and um that seems to me like what a big brand would do I guess at the very beginning it would be like right my business partner Jenna on the iPhone getting the social content literally I'm there getting the flat lays like and then one of the person like doing the makeup doing the style do you mean you just all like come together and just do what you've got to do so I think going from that dynamic where we kind of like something happens and we react to it so quickly to then having a much well very grateful for it because it wouldn't be where it is today but a much bigger team yeah it's honestly been like such a big adjustment and then for us we now have to have like processes in place right and it's much more rigid in the way that like if you shot something and it didn't work you'd be able to at the worst case you'd be able to say to the brand like I'm so sorry it's not working like can I shoot a different product or should we just like not go ahead with this or whatever when you've got tens of thousands of units hurtling across the world towards you and you're like no no this is gonna have to work like this must look nice no it's so true and I think as well it's like there's so many different teams that just come into for example like one product launch as you all know like so many different teams take part in that and it's just making sure like that we all communicate with each other and I think obviously that was much easier when we were a lot smaller because it would just be like Carla we're doing this yeah yeah it'll be like we're changing the day for this because actually it doesn't work yeah yeah I'm a bit busy that day we'll just do it like next week yeah that's how it would be but obviously now there's like deadlines to work towards there's targets to work towards there's different things to work towards and it's just making sure everyone's in the know and in the loop and just yeah I guess we're just taking things more seriously and that definitely is an adjustment period as I said we're only three years old and the progress that we've made is insane and the growth we've had is insane but yeah for sure still adjusting to that and obviously an amazing like absolutely amazing first launch bestseller you know went in like reinventing the wheel for that one which obviously gave you guys such a name and did so well did that ever terrify you with how well it had done in terms of overcoming that definitely and I think once obviously we never expected that as I mentioned before it was just right to be a side hustles yeah yeah cool we'll just do this and then thanks for selling the bar guys well this is it no it's it's intimidating you're like really just wanted to release a lip balm next just wanted to like chill a little bit just do a browse for a while no honestly we never expected it to be as big as it was and then that happened and we'd obviously as i said started developing the summer skin collection which was the bronzer the blush and the highlighter and i just remember developing it and i obviously loved it myself but then again i guess it was that doubt in my mind of right like is this good enough it's a bronzer it's a blush like how do you reinvent that and we definitely did with the formulas obviously but you did with the marketing as well like you guys like I mean I know that you probably know this but like I don't know who it is I don't know whether it's you I don't know if it's your marketing team like they are so good at like what seems from the outside to be it might not be reinventing the wheel but in terms of like selling the kind of lifestyle and the story around it and like the application and how you use it and how it makes you feel you guys are honestly you've come in and you've really been like a class act in comparison to like big big brands like which is no easy feat at all like sure you say like okay well you know it feels intimidating because like we're just it's a blusher like it's so it's a bronzer but actually like the storytelling and the way you guys have been able to like really ace that is like something that you do not see from brands like 10 times your size so like I have faith you could sell me a sock like you really could you could be like a little flat light with a duo brush yeah exactly that the flat light no I'm gone no it's so true and I do think that was a big thing in our growth as well and I guess that's something as I said in the very beginning I was so passionate about is that content creation and as I said like styling and like concepts like that does really get me excited but that's also what like I always think that you know obviously there's a lot of negative rhetoric around influences in general and generally kind of you know like the like no talent stuff but the types of marketing that influencers are able to do every day for a number of different products there's a reason brands I guess you know are paying big bucks for that insight like now and I think it goes to show like once you develop an aptitude for really talking to your audience and if you're able to do that and you're really able to kind of show them the way the things they want to see in the ways they want to see it that is no easy feat at all and there was a reason why like even the highest end brands are paying influencers now to be able to kind of reach their audiences and be sold in the way they're selling it because it's literally like mini editorial shoots no you're like a lot of the time they're shooting it in a way like some of the influencers i follow i'm like fucking hell how am i even on this platform because i'm here like little egg face selfie and they're literally doing like this beautiful like something that could be literally in a magazine no it's so true and i do think that for a lot of influencers that obviously the style into it but then it's like kind of the entire concept and I know to a lot of people it doesn't sound that deep but that's some people but it's also mine it's also not that deep it shouldn't be that deep in the way that like that's probably because you haven't even perceived it in that way which is exactly what good marketing is yeah like good marketing you don't even know the way you're being sold to it's almost just integrated completely into like that content or how you'd consume something normally you guys have done that amazingly but also I think a lot of the most successful influencers the reason they're so successful is because they do that so well it's not even about subtlety it's about like integration and like selling to your audience in the correct way and I think you've been able to really because you guys are such like a storytelling and influencer-led brand in that way you've been able to do that based on the fact that Refai is almost like acting as the influencer showing its audience how they should be using it and all of that which is not easy as a brand at all no definitely and I think we always try and I always say to the team at refi I'm like what are the cool girls doing right cool girls what what what gives you FOMO like what what are you guys in a room no all of them all the gen z's I'm like what are you dying over right now tell me because obviously things have changed so much as well but no I do think we take that that like that outlook in terms of like we just want to do cool stuff like we're very fortunate that the brand has gone well and the products I would never ever bring something out for no reason like as I said everything has to be solution-based and has a purpose but I just want us to be that brand like who's doing these really cool things and as you said like even down to the marketing I'm never ever going to be like sail on buy this guys like that's just not yeah yeah I'll always just be like okay well there's a brow sculpt balancing on a rock in the middle of Santorini like do you want it do you know what I mean I think that's just would you like it if you no worries no worries if not it's fine because I've got loads that I'll use them all that's fine that's exactly it and I just think that is a big piece of the brand that we're trying to create even now is like always going with like brand first and not necessarily obviously we need to focus on the numbers and that's not my expertise but like just thinking like what is cool like what is going to give us a legacy long term because that is the end goal here and just like what does make you feel really good inside and what is your most confident self like it doesn't have to be a cheesy thing like it might be like as I said all these just cool flat lays all these lifestyle content I think I want to push more yeah going forward as well yeah 100 % and when you spoke there quickly about like numbers not being your thing how have you adapted to obviously you're like an amazing creative and you've come into this from the perspective of being like a makeup lover a makeup user someone who's you know sold makeup for other brands as well what I don't know if you have experience in before is the kind of business side like the logistics the finances all of that how have you adapted to that and like how have you been able to I guess take up any of that if at all like I don't think that I think one of the misconceptions is that like to be as business owner you need to be like a finance whiz you need to know about logistics you need to know about like what your fulfillment center is doing you need to do you don't need to know all these things especially if you like obviously you can outsource a lot you can co-founder you can like there are so many different solutions yeah but essentially how have you found adapting to being involved in more of that and like taking that on and being able to tackle that side of the business absolutely and I think that is one of the things and I was never under the impression that I could do it all I think I'm very fortunate as I said before me and Jenna are very different like which works so so well like she's super creative me and her we're very fortunate we do have the same mind when it comes to brand but essentially she is a ceo she has previous experience of running a business like literally from the very beginning all the way to try and be becoming a very successful business whereas myself my expertise was like i guess networking like social content creativity which is so different and i do think just me being like spending my time with jenna obviously creating this brand i was able to learn and don't get me wrong i'm not taking over like the planning for the like all the finances and the orders that's that's not my thing I don't want to do that like I'm not good at that I have made it my priority though to have an understanding of that as a founder of the business just because I think I'd be I'd be a donor if I didn't understand the workings of the business and what we were trying to do so I definitely have an understanding just because I feel like I I want to but I don't have a clue about those kind of things but I'm very fortunate that I have I'm obviously going to say it but an incredible team like I have an amazing team everyone is so good I was saying it to you before we started this so good at what they do I don't need to worry and it's the best feeling ever like to have people that you have such a good relationship with such a good like working like relationship with and environment and culture but also that they're so good at their job I don't even need to say well what like what does that mean like they'll explain it to me or like what what are you doing I don't need to like It's so good that they just do their thing.

48:40And yeah, I'm very fortunate to have that. And how have you found that process as well of like building a team and working with a team of people in order to create like your vision? I think I was very fortunate. As I said before, I started with Jenna and Jenna had a team of I don't know the full amount now. But for example, there was about three individuals that worked at Shrine as managers. and that was product development Danielle who's been a massive massive key obviously in creating world first products obviously we have these ideas but it's Danielle who's got to make it best of luck Danielle this is what we're doing so it needs to fly it needs to be invisible and she's like tears coming down no she's amazing and then um Scott and then also Mike so we have obviously Jenna had an amazing team with these guys already and we were very fortunate that they were in a position to be able to give like at the very beginning half of their time to refire because I wasn't meant to be anything so they were like oh yeah they must have been like what's going on they were like glitter yeah for now honestly this was it we're like forget everything you know about glitter we are now doing makeup makeup yeah no um so everyone was just amazing and Jenna already had such a good relationship with those guys and they were just so good to come on and put their time into refires well and definitely they're the reason why refires as big as it is today because I'm sure as you all know like having people in a business or and in a brand that you trust and want the best for the brand and and in the early days as I said before on a shoot like you all have to muck in and like you all have to you need those people that are literally yeah also die for you like no problem like yeah because also if you as a founder are the type of person to do that and then it's like because you I fully believe you set the standard as founder like I believe that if you're going to go in and you're going to be really like sound offish and you're going to be like oh yeah do the dirty work for me and all of that like you're going to get out what you're putting in but i feel like if you're the type of person like who will literally like get down on their knees on the floor in the middle of a shoot being like no it has to be like this i need to share some behind the scenes with the internet one day but i just can't do it right now because i'm too embarrassed but the stuff the positions that i am in right because it's like no yeah literally just because I'm like come on then guys yeah but it does set the like standard and I think that's why some founder ed brands are doing so well at the moment because I think that actually being able to just like set like when you're that enthusiastic about your product and you're that enthusiastic about like it just doesn't work like I'm the same with like you know when it will come to a social rollout and I'll like see something I'm like it's nice but it just like not dying over it yeah it's just not making me be like wow you know and we're we're a fashion business so you know that means kind of like when we're doing a lot of releases like it's not it's not kind of constant but it's also not you know rare we work off that um it's very very different from beauty but it just means like kind of like constantly having to hit the mark but also just being like no this is the precedent I'm setting I'm showing you that I will literally do anything for this and obviously as a founder you're going to be far more invested than anyone else but actually just like if you're not like that you're not going to get that out of your team and it's so true and I guess as well like the people I just spoke about they are now all managers at refighting because they had that outlook and set that standard as the teams have been built out and obviously we have like a we've got a well a team of over 50 now which is crazy amazing everyone's been hate the word like taught but everyone's just been brought up in that culture of like no we all do it like we all do yeah do you know what I mean so I think that's now why we have such an amazing like vibe in the office and just all work together so well it's just because we've all I don't know we started off small we grew really quickly but I don't think the culture has changed along the way I think of anything we've just it's just got better so I'm very fortunate for that very fortunate and how have you found it leading a team of 50 because for anyone who doesn't think 50 sounds like a lot of people it is so many people it's a lot of people and I think I'm very fortunate because I have Jenna so she already had so much experience and I think to me I just love being around her because I learn so much and even as I said before the managers that came over from Shrine to who are now full-time refi like they have so much experience and again I never wanted to be a manager grace like I just wanted to create cool content create cool products and that is kind of what I stick to obviously now I'm in the space where I probably have a few teams that like report to me which is incredible and that definitely was a massive adjustment but I think it was I guess a little bit of that imposter syndrome as well yeah for like say like the team that was already under Jenna or those three people coming over then me coming in as well and I'm like hi so you speak to me now like I just thought who am I to do what I mean it was a it was a hard adjustment to to get into that role initially but But I think as the teams have been built out and we're bringing on new people all the time, as I said, that culture that was already there from Jenna's side has just translated through.

53:44And I think it's just such a nice place to work that I've never felt, oh, my God, I can't I can't like say that or I shouldn't be. I don't have the right to think like that. Everyone's just so welcoming, so lovely. And I don't know, they've made it really easy for me, to be honest, but it's still overwhelming. in like I still think I don't know how it's got this big this quick and I don't always have the right answers I definitely don't I'm always like oh what do I do here and I'm fortunate to have like friends in the industry where I can say if you dealt with this like what would you do kind of yeah I'm the type of person who literally like I'll see something on someone's story where they're talking about like oh this is kind of happening I'm like so this happened to me and basically like I have this accountant who you could talk to and this is really good and also this lawyer is really good I'm literally like I don't know what's wrong with me no that's what we need no because we need but I think it's so important and especially in an industry that like there's so little transparency and also every almost everyone's acting as a sole agent yeah like it's very tough to get that kind of like I hate seeing people taking advantage of in the industry like they're oh I just like hate it like when people are starting businesses and you can see the people they're starting the businesses with you like you're like they're gonna fuck you over or they're like gonna give you the fear like oh it gives me I literally I'm like that is the only time my nose all the way in other people's businesses because I'm like hello just to let you know I actually had a really terrible experience with these people and like I don't want all your money to go that's so good that you do that you have to do that but it's also just like a terrible like it's a weird industry where there's like so little sharing and disclosure and all of that and I you know I've been fucked over so many times and I've had some like real big like you know big big issues like in terms of like starting businesses with people like all of those types of things that it's like the shit that put me through I'm like no yeah if you'll listen I'm gonna tell you um and I think that's really important and I think it goes like also constantly like I think especially as women like sharing experience and sharing like no-goes and like all of those things is so valuable and like so important in terms of like being able to help each other advance definitely and you're right in terms of saying like people don't talk about it enough and I'm not sure why we have that stigma but yeah it's such a shame because even you just saying that I'm like no way like I would never have known that do you know what I'm trying to say and I think it's so important that I guess more of us do have that conversation and what's your big goal for Refai now so as I said Refai is going to be three this year which is crazy but I genuinely see Refai being one of the biggest beauty brands in the world I don't ever see us bringing out loads of products that's not what we're here to do we will always bring out products with a purpose we're bringing up products that look amazing on everyone um that easy to use that fix problems in the makeup industry um and I also just see you as we touched on previously refi being like a really cool brand I want to have a legacy I don't just obviously we're going to bring out amazing innovative products but I also want people to look to us to be like oh where are the refi girlies like going this summer yeah I mean I want to have right that kind of legacy as well of just doing cool things but yeah I'm really excited for where it's going to go and yeah I'm looking forward to the next few years for a five I see it I can't wait to see it I literally like I can envision it all happening and you guys have done such an incredible job so far and the reason I like shout about it so much is because I think that like in such a saturated space and such a you know it's easy to always think there's no more space and there's no more or like you know I'm for example before you started refi like I'm specifically an influencer I'm specifically a model like any of these things and I think you're such a good example of like when you do something well and you put purpose behind something and you put just like enthusiasm and just being like fuck it like what is the worst that can happen and I know it's not always that easy I think more than other people put us in a box we always put ourselves in a box in terms of like this is where I am this is what I'm doing and I think you're such a good example of someone who's like constantly like redefined your career and like where you want to go and I think people can learn a lot from that no I appreciate that thank you I think it's one of them where I just the opportunities would arise at the right time almost I do I'm a big believer in things but you make that happen yeah you make your own luck you really do I do think that luck is like a big thing and I will say I've been the luckiest person in the world I completely agree but yeah I would say the exact same but you didn't end up here on accident no it's very true yeah I think it's easy to you know a lot of the right things put together and a lot of like the there will also have been times where you will have been extremely unlucky yeah and you will have been like fuck can't believe that just happened and of course like we've both been incredibly incredibly lucky and i think we'd both be the first people to say that yeah i will say looking from an outside view on yours like you make you've made your own luck i think you all right back at you i was so the exact same and now we kiss

58:32oh well thank you so much for coming no thank you i absolutely love this it's been great

58:42Thank you so much.