Ep.59 An Ultimate Guide To Skincare With Expert Caroline Hirons

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1:17Because when your operations are smooth, your impact can be bigger. Visit business.warmart.com to get started. I would like to know your Desert Island skincare products. I need to lie down and think about this. Caroline Hirons has been named the queen of skincare. Her back to basics approach has led her millions of fans across the world. The next day your skin looks like you've had a head full of Botox. The earlier you start, the less you need as you get older. What would you recommend for someone who's currently having acne issues? If someone is having further problems with their skin, where would you recommend that people start building their routine?

1:52So what would you recommend for someone who's struggling then with acne scarring? What would be the biggest piece of advice you'd give to anyone about getting their skincare right? Where do I start?

2:12Oh, you guys are in for an absolute treat today. I cannot tell you what you have in store. If you fall under any of the following categories, as someone who uses skincare, as someone who wants to use skincare, as someone who has skin, you are going to love this episode. I have been such a big fan of Caroline for so long because I really, really, really, really, really, really, really respect people who pursue their interests in an industry. Obviously before it was exciting. I mean, that goes without saying, but also it's not always easy to predict where the industry is going to go. And I'm sure for some people that doesn't work out very well.

2:47For people like her that have stuck to their guns and stuck to their expertise and created incredible personal brands and value-add content purely based on the fact that they've not compromised their authenticity, I think she is one of the best influencers out there. And I think that that is no mean feat. So I really wanted to get her on to not only talk about her career and kind of how she got to where she is now, but to give us all a how-to in skincare 101, what we should be using, what we shouldn't be using, what we should be using for acne, what we should be using for eczema, when we should be going to a dermatologist, when we should be going to a facialist, myth-busting, all of the things we didn't know but should know, how to look out for good products, etc, etc, etc.

3:34She answers it all in this episode. This was so educational for me and I think I would have had to pay thousands for that consultation and I got it free all because of you. So thank you so much and also you're welcome for having this consultation. I hope you really enjoyed this episode. I think you'll really enjoy it. Let me know what you think in the comments if you are on a platform that can leave comments and if not please make sure to rate, subscribe, follow, like, again whatever is relevant on your platform. It helps us to have amazing guests like this and as you can clearly see I am very passionate about 360 life improvement by just listening to really interesting people and knowing things that we need to know no matter what topic they might be about.

4:15So today is skincare. Grab a cup of tea, settle down, get your headphones on and go for a hot girl walk because this is full of the skincare tea.

4:27Once described as the most powerful woman in beauty, Caroline Hirons is the founder, presenter, best-selling author and all-around figurehead within the skincare industry. With a career spanning 35 years in retail, 26 years in skincare, and as a fully trained esthetician, Caroline gives expert advice to the masses, lending her honest truth behind all products we are using and the big do's and don'ts of what we should and shouldn't be putting on our faces. Since starting her online career well over 10 years ago, she has built a community of over 950 ,000 very, very engaged followers, becoming a well-loved, trusted, and highly regarded thought leader within the space, with her articles having been viewed over 89 million times.

5:06In 2019, Caroline also became the resident skincare presenter on This Morning. In 2020, Caroline published her debut book, Skincare, which became an instant Sunday Times bestseller and the best-selling skincare title of all time, nicknamed the Bible of skincare, showing you where to start with skincare, how to build a routine, ingredients to look for, and things to avoid, whatever your age, skin concerns, or budget. In November 2022, Caroline released her own line of skincare, Skin Rocks, which is an accumulation of Caroline's 25 years in the beauty industry. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me.

5:39For people who don't know your background, could you give a little whistle-stop tour of how you got to where you are now? Yeah. Well, my first job was when I was 15 in retail. I started in beauty in 97. I needed a weekend job while my two eldest children were sort of, you know, young and they were at school during the week and things. and first day there I fell in love with it and thought this is really good and I love this and I've always loved dealing with people and interact and I didn't leave beauty after that and my mum and grandmother were both in the industry but in very different roles and never really left the sales floor particularly didn't go into management it was strange that we'd never spoken about me going into beauty when I went for this job my mum was like oh that would be nice it was just very this sort of fits a need and I was working on the Aveda counter in Harvey Nichols and then I never but I haven't left beauty since.

6:26I just loved it. And then I worked my way up. I moved to Space NK was store management and then moved to Shantakai, looked after them for five years. And then slowly from there started consulting, started a blog. The blog took off. Sounds like it's a nutshell, but it's like 25 years worth. How did you first get into, I guess, the product side from being in a retail situation to, I guess, learning more about what was necessarily in the products and what made them good and why you would go for them? I think I'd got into the product side immediately because I was in skincare. Of course. And so, yeah, you want to know that what you're recommending to people works and keep on top of trends and newness and all that sort of stuff.

7:11So I was always into what was in the product that would make it work. In terms of sort of moving from shop floor to management, to sort of UK management to Europe management. It kind of is a natural procession of things, but I never felt comfortable working in corporate. So I always steered away. I always worked for sort of smaller independent brands and steered away from big corporate. But what that gave me by chance, really, I mean, I wasn't planning it that way, is a much closer relationship with everything from the beginning of a product's life until it goes on the shelf and is sold. So I knew where to source things.

7:49I knew labs, I knew scientists, I knew packaging, I knew the best people to go to for every component. And if I'd stayed in corporate and just maybe just stayed as like a UK sales manager or something, it would have been much harder. Maybe still would have been in this position, but it would have been a much harder journey for sure. Where did that, I guess, relatively sudden interest come from the point that you were doing a weekend job to want to learn all about this? And I'm really interested in knowing more and more and more. Well, natural inquisitiveness. I've always wanted to do my best work no matter what I was doing.

8:22You know, if I'm a Saturday, Sunday girl, or I'm working in my mum's shop when I'm 15, I'm going to make sure I'm doing a good job. So I think that's one aspect, generally being nosy, you know, wanting to keep learning. I always want to ask questions. I mean, the upshot of it is probably that I just never take what people will tell me at face value. There's always that side of me that goes, right, so I am that person you know I used to be that person in meetings I'd be well if we do that why would you do that when you could you know the sort of inquisitiveness was there so in terms of going deeper into skincare and going back to because I went back to college to become a qualified facialist and you know I knew I needed the piece of paper I knew I needed a deeper education I knew I didn't want to sort of stand on a counter and say this will do xyz if I didn't know that it did that.

9:12I didn't want to take everything at face value. It was a lot of questioning. So I think it was a natural progression, to be honest. And when you started the blog, what in particular was that kind of blogging about? I mean, the very first iteration of the blog was about the kids and funny sort of mum and kid stories. Then I realised literally after about two weeks that the kids wouldn't be happy with me sharing all of that, almost without their permission if they were younger as they grew up. And so I changed it to beauty. And because skincare was my speciality, it was again one of those things where if I'd have followed the trend, I may have got lost in the noise, but I didn't.

9:52Because back in the days of donkeys and carts of blogging, I mean, it was literally blogspot.co.uk, if you can imagine. Everyone was doing makeup, nails were massive, but I instinctively stuck with what I knew, which was skincare. And there really wasn't anyone else doing it. It was just serendipity, really. It was, you know, I was a little bit older than a lot of people who were blogging. I was qualified. I already worked in the industry. And I think that gave me a trust, a sort of certain, you know, you're coming in at a higher trust level. And that's kind of what kickstarted everything, really.

10:26But the most popular posts from day one were the how to's or the cheat sheets. Okay. You know, like the very first post I put up was how to cleanse your face properly and how to do like a cleansing facial massage seo friendly as well and it's still i knew nothing about that yeah nothing i still don't think like that i just don't it was obvious really quickly that people needed help and that a lot of people were intimidated going into stores and into counters and also i think because of working in places like space and k i had always had multi-brand training so being trained in like 200 brands is certainly helpful and not recommending everything from one brand was sort of different then you know it wasn't about oh you have to use everything from the same brand or you don't get the same benefits which I immediately said well that's not true you know so things like that were immediately popular having an opinion was popular you know now online life is so different that it's you're almost discouraged from having too strong of an opinion right whereas if I hadn't have had one I wouldn't have had a career there's a difference between being black and white and having nuance you know you can absolutely have nuance and you certainly learn how to talk to people better you know I mean I certainly as much as I used the years and years of working with people in the retail world essentially what I was doing was doing what I'd always done in store but online I just moved it online you know in a similar way that like Jamie did Jamie Genevieve and Sam and Nick Chapman everyone who's ever been like a shop floor person you can tell as well because there's a certain level of grafting you know they're the people who are always working.

12:02I love it. And I still, when I go in now to visit stores, I'm happy to stand there all day. You know, I just opened Space and K in Liverpool with a brand and I was stood there for like eight hours. They were like, you need lunch? I'm like, ah, fine, I'll get a sandwich later. Because I just love talking to people. And I was selling other people's product in the store. I just went straight back to my default, which is, well, I use everything from every other brand. You know, I use everything. And so I think in terms of having the opinion and not, it comes from a very um i think particularly female problem of wanting to be liked you know i did a video once quite a few years ago now that was um love the juice shame about the packaging because we've all used something where you're like this packaging is shit yeah but the product is amazing and you know and that got pushed back from some of the brands but then in the end some big corporations change their packaging and i know that the the impetus of that was me saying the juice is great why are you trying to make it hard for me to apply right exactly which i think is such a lesson in kind of sticking to your guns and as we said like also being able to consider nuance and consider other people's opinions and all of this however you are qualified to give your own opinion at all times like whether it's the right thing to do or the right space to do it is a completely different matter but it's so clear that you've built your brand not just not just the physical brand of skin rocks but your kind of personal brand as well purely based off the fact like there's a reason why when I go into something like space nk like I've told you when I don't know something yours is a resource that I use in order to be able to because I know there's something that I'm going to look at and I'm gonna I'm the type of person who I definitely have that whatever that disease is where you see something's more expensive and therefore think it's more effective like honestly all the time and I actually being able to kind of check it out and understand that you know someone like you is going to be able to give an honest opinion it definitely must have been a difficult thing for you to do in the shorter term because I can imagine at the beginning when you're wanting to work with brands at least to a certain extent like it is a certain badge of honor within an industry yeah how did you balance the desire to want to work with brands and want to I guess further your career in that way whilst also wanting to make sure you were as honest as possible?

14:15To be honest, it wasn't that hard because where I do have black and white is brands I would never work with or products I would never endorse, anything considered weight loss, stretch marks, anything like that, you know, I'm like, whatever. Yeah. So that's easy. In terms of working with brands, I genuinely didn't go after brand deals. I was working and consulting for a long time before I said, right, actually, I need to stop now and just do the blog, because they started to cross-pollinate in a way that wasn't healthy. So I would have consulting clients who would expect to be put on the blog and wanted to use my blog.

14:53It's a compliment, but it's also a piss take. They wanted to use the blog to announce their new product or to do a launch, but as part of my consulting gig. And I had made it completely clear at the beginning, look, I'm happy to help you do whatever you want and grow your business. I want nothing else but the success of your business but you have to understand that the blog is always separate yeah and I love the opportunity it gives me to talk about your product and to maybe get a sneak peek but you can't expect that no absolutely you know and so eventually I was like this is too much of a pain in the ass and I'm big enough now to say okay I'm not going to consult it's not always easy because obviously as well I needed the money we had kids you know I had four kids to feed house clothes you know that's why I consulted and kept consulting for so long when I could have made a fortune switching to just doing the blog work and social media and sponsored posts but number one it's that ultimate bet on yourself which is like oh but if I don't have the retainer income from consulting and I do love the consulting I mean I do it now for free you know for smaller brands I'm like can I just give you a little bit of advice and they're like yes please and I'm like okay could you do then they're like oh my god it just became I can make more money doing the other and I can still make money using good judgment yeah the money I've turned down is horrendous.

16:06I don't know when the switch quite happened, but obviously it just happened that my word meant a lot in the skincare world. You know, the early signs were things like I had spoken about Clinique's take the day off cleansing balm. And when I did that, it sold out worldwide. And Clinique were like at the borderline of discontinuing it because no one really knew how to use it, how to describe it. It wasn't, it's not a very Clinique product if you think about it. I mean it's basically a greasy lardy balm you know it's not like you would say there's health benefits it's a it's a traditional old makeup remover I said to Clinique look I'm getting harassed by people where can we buy it give us the balm give us a balm and they gave me an official statement and I was like oh wow Estee Lauder are talking to me like I'm important yeah right and even people who I had friends at that point who worked for Estee Lauder the brand the parent company they were like Clinique have given you a statement and I was like I know and so from that point on it was a bit like oh okay but I think if I had come into it with well you're gonna have to give me a statement and an arrogance it would never have worked it you have to have the humility of it would have been a very short-term game if I had done that from the beginning because also there's nothing more unattractive you know to as a viewer because I'm like you I watch a lot of people I you know I listen to a lot of pods there's nothing more unattractive than the arrogance of well my word is you know that sort of stuff and it's a bit it's just not me you know and the big thing is when people always say which I'm sure you've had you know oh you're very opinionated right no I'm not you have as many opinions as I do I just voice them right if it's a product that I don't like for personal reasons or a brand I don't like for personal reasons then why would I bother if it gives other people joy and they find it works for them knock yourselves out I will talk about it if I think it's harmful obviously disingenuous pure marketing winds me up I mean I was against clean and green and everything that comes out of LA's bullshit from day one and now we've gone full circle and it's kind of finally coming to fruition that everyone knows it's just nonsense you know if it's about the end consumer and their safety their health of course their marketing that you know their money ultimately that they're being sold to then I will voice the opinion no matter who it pisses off if it's just about my ego I don't who cares no one cares if it's something that affects people wasting their money that winds me up people being lied to people being told that certain things in beauty are unsafe that annoys me I'll always voice that but if it's just like well I don't really like this because it's then why bother yeah because the other side of it is I know as much as I can build a brand I could also equally destroy one so I'm careful and I don't say that with arrogance I say it with a knowing awareness of I try and go easy there's the odd one where I don't go easy Brad Pitt has no business making a skincare product but you know equally I know that that's not going to upset or offend anyone because if you love Brad Pitt and you've got money you're going to want his product who cares what I think yeah do you need it is it life-changing no of course it's not when you look at those people who you feel like have that kind of quality where they're online they can recommend something it completely sells out and people value their opinion that highly what do you think that is like how do you think that's made built trust experience never lying to people never bullshitting never trying to cover up it's also accountability you know when I've made mistakes or when I've when we've had mistakes as a business or whatever I'm the first person to go right that's on me I'll sort it you know or oh god I'm sorry that's just me blurting I'm out of order you know not recently but obviously in the earlier years because also things stay online forever and things come up and you're like yeah I was an absolute knob you know we're cool now we've spoken da da da da it doesn't happen as much now because you know you I'm older I think in the early days I was very susceptible to people tagging me in other people's drama only like in skin really and beauty, you know, and me jumping in and going X, Y, Z, and this is this and this and that.

20:00And now I'm just like, oh, whatever, who has the time? I don't care. You know, if I get tagged in things like, for example, Gwyneth Paltrow saying she only really dabs SPF where the sun hits her face, and I'm like. That's dangerous, yeah. Moron. Please, more. But I back it up with, because some people will say, well, what do you know, Gwyneth Paltrow might do it. So I just got like 27 derms to give me a statement and put it up on the blog. That's what I know. all of these people are telling you the exact opposite thing they're all doctors they cut cancer out of people for a living use your spf you know yeah that kind of thing i'm more than happy to say don't do that if you do anything else don't do that yeah but general sort of getting involved in things and online i'm just not who cares so i'm particular about when i jump in but when i jump in i generally jump in like rocky palpable i want to fast forward to the decision to start a brand of your own.

20:51Love your brand. I use it. As you know, I've posted about it completely organically and as a paid customer, because it is a favorite in my household and everyone there, there were two of us, but it's important opinions from us too. I can imagine that when you were considering making a brand, because you were trusted so much in opinions on other people's brands, did you have a worry moment where you thought that people might think it would compromise your integrity. Yeah. And that would be, of course they would. Why wouldn't they? It's completely understandable. You know, the proof would have to be in the pudding.

21:26Equally of all the brands I've worked with over the last sort of 15, 20 years, only one brand called me and said, how are you going to handle talking about our product if you also sell this product? Just one brand, which was really good because I think it showed that the brands trust me. And even the ones who didn't trust me, they knew that me talking about their brand still had a benefit, you know but it's it's been good because i just said look i can only show you as we go forward that i will still endorse the industry as a whole product as a whole i love beauty i love skincare i love makeup you know and to this day i haven't said this is the only cleanser you ever need to use again of course about my cleanser because i use 25 different cleansers you know i love our cleanser but i'm always going to use everyone else's product because i like to dabble yeah i like to know what's out there and equally you know i had i've said to brands you also need to trust me that if you tell me about some groundbreaking science, I'm not going to release the same thing in the next year.

22:19It's never been my bag. I'm going to be like, I love this. Haven't they done brilliantly? You know, like the Curel Mist. I must have sold them out of that how many times worldwide. It would be easy, fairly easy to go into a lab and knock it off. Why would I do that? People would be like, well, she's just copied Curel. You have to have your integrity. I've always known what I wanted to release and how I would do it. I just, I'm not the type of person that wants to sort of cannibalize other people's stuff. I'd rather be collaborative. And I think that also comes from building up a brand online. But that must have been hard to a certain extent as well, even in terms of the fact that like, you know, there will be other people who do similar consistency moisturizers or cleansers.

23:02How have you managed to walk that line? Giving really intense briefs to scientists is always a good start. You know, because when you go to make a product, Like most labs will say, okay, so can we have some examples of stuff that you love? And sometimes I'll say, well, yeah, I like these, but it can't be anything like these. Because they're my friends. And then they're like, okay. But the scientists loved it. I mean, it took me like four or five attempts to get a lab. You know, we've got a couple of labs now, but to get labs that could give me a product that I wanted. I think ultimately grown-up brands and brands that are confident, which is most of them in fairness, they don't have that sort of I have to keep everything into myself and hide everything like this and they're going to know that if I'm going to release a cleanser a moisturizer an acid a retinoid an eye whatever there will always be similarities but it's a different product of course and I will still use other people's product and endorse it because they're fantastic you know when I did reach out to brands that I spoke to a lot I was like look we're going to release the product in xyz and this is what we're doing first and I just want you to know that if you want a sample of the product you can have it first I'm never going to sit in front of a camera and say you only ever need to use this skin rocks is the only thing you ever need to use because that's not how i've spoken about skincare my entire working career so if i started doing it now people would be like oh she's lost it right you know no no she's lost it now we need someone else to go to for advice right and i do genuinely love using other people's product i'm the worst person in business you know obviously my marketing team their job is to market the product and they would love it if i went on to insta and did a reel that was just like why this is the only retinoid you ever need to put on your face again they'd be like yes we finally got her and i'm like I'm never going to do it guys it's not me you know I'm still CH talking about the brand of Skin Rock so it's still it doesn't mean do I back my product 100 % of course yeah you know I'm proud of it of course but will I will it stop me from using everyone else's stuff no never I just I love the whole industry too much yeah I want to speak about skincare in general especially for people who maybe haven't got into their kind of skincare era yet at the beginning of someone's I I guess, skincare journey, if you could call it that, what would be the biggest pieces of advice you'd give to anyone about getting their skincare right?

25:16Buy an SPF, don't sleep in your makeup, don't smoke. If you start there, then you're onto a winner, especially if you manage to get to like, you know, your teenagers. If you can get them into it and a routine, doing it religiously like a routine is key. The earlier you start, the less you need as you get older because the signs of sort of aging that most people complain about, pigmentation, wrinkles, you know, sagginess, all that sort of stuff, it's going to happen to us all eventually. You can delay it, the process a lot, though, if you're using SPF, for example. And so should we all be using SPF every day, whether inside, outside?

25:52Yeah, if you want to sort of slow the passage of time, nothing's going to stop you aging, and why should you? We're a pro-aging brand. We don't like to use the term anti-aging. if I use it I use it in the context of letting people know what I mean because the industry has made it such a relative term but we're not we're just you know healthy aging is better like healthy skin I don't like to use the term normal for sort of a skin that doesn't really have any kind of skin condition it's safer sort of I think and kinder to say balanced you know things like that we just try and tweak the language a bit but in terms of a sun factor the sun is fantastic I love the sun but it can and does cause damage you know so I'm not saying you have to slather yourself in a beach SPF when you're going to work in the winter that's not what I'm saying but on your face you can find a really sexy SPF that works well under makeup as well you're set for someone who wants to build a skincare routine from scratch they want to make sure they're covering I guess all the bases maybe they are my age so I'm 26 I probably got into skincare properly about two three years ago and I found it very difficult to build a routine and to know what I needed and to know what ingredients and all of this that I should be avoiding or going towards what would be your I guess advice well I mean the reason we built the app is to help exactly that customer there's only one of me I've worked out that I'd answered since the blog started approximately a quarter of a million questions that's without shop floor work before the blog that's just since 2010 and a lot of the questions were very very repetitive and similar people are obsessed with pores pigmentation and what where do I start those are kind of the big ones you know I don't know what to do I walk into a boots or I walk into a space or I look online and I just don't even know what I'm looking at you know I know I should wash my face maybe not with a shower gel and I my skin feels sore sometimes that's a kind of an easier place to start so the app the whole point of it was you fill your profile out and tell us how much you want to spend and we'll tell you or you might have 150 products in your that are suitable for you and we'll just do it's a match and then you can choose for yourself you know it's not me pushing anything brands cannot pay to be selected it's completely independent so I had to kind of replicate what I was doing for a bigger audience and that seemed a sensible way to do it at the time sure but it doesn't stop people asking you questions no 4 000 questions a day but you need to you know wash your face nicely at night use moisturizer use an spf it's a real basic way to start

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29:50A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. And if someone is having, I guess, further problems with their skin, so they're in a position where maybe you know maybe they've suddenly started having acne breakouts or they have been getting eczema or whatever it might be where would you i know there's obviously i think there's a shortage of dermatologists in the uk yeah and they're also expensive yeah absolutely and they're prohibitively expensive for the majority of people where would you recommend that people like that start in terms of building their routine?

30:33Yeah I think you need advice from someone that you trust so if that turns out to be someone like me online if it turns out to be that you've downloaded the app if you've got people that you like to follow on social media if you like one product from a brand and that brand has counters and you can go in and talk to people there and then it's because the other side of it of course is the professional side of the industry which is going for a facial and going for a treatment and I think the industry has changed so much from the old days of you know a facial was for most people was once or twice a year it was Christmas and birthdays you know or summer holidays and birthdays it was a treat whereas now you can really you know we can do so much in a clinic that you never really used to be able to do with product and you know without without a prescription or a dermatologist and there is a chronic shortage of derms the problem with derms and this is being told to me by derms that i trust and who are who are consultant derms like proper top of their game is that people will do their medical training specialize in dermatology and immediately leave the nhs and go private because they want to make money fair play but that i think they i think they have a duty to do at least a couple of years like like being in the army doing a couple of years duty with the nhs to help people because and especially with covid there's still a huge delay in people being seen who have things that aren't considered really important like acne but acne is completely debilitating if you're a young person with acne it's it can be completely debilitating you know but of course skin cancer had to take priority of course so there is a huge shortage of dermatologists but there isn't a huge shortage of people who can perform facials and use lasers and do peels and all that sort of stuff and so I think supporting the professional industry has been the other side of it that kind of came along as a nice almost like an add-on it was wasn't that I hadn't done it before it's just that I really got to the point where I was like well go and see so and so go and have a facial go and you know and I don't mean what I would call like a it sounds terrible but like a generic cattle market facial you know where they're only trained to do one thing and there's a routine and you'll lie down and they'll take your eye makeup off and it's very essential oil happy and it smells nice and you fall asleep that's nice I'd rather have a massage I don't want a load of products that I don't I'm not aware of on my face I'd rather be zapped nuked peeled you know like I want it to do I want it to hit I want it to do something if I come out of a facial and I'm not pink then it hasn't been done properly not red not sore pink and juicy that's what you want and how do you tell then where the difference between like what a good treatment to get would be and a not so good treatment or something that So a fluffy facial would be probably from a corporate brand.

33:18They're all the same. They only offer like one or they do like ones that coincide with their skincare franchises. So it'll be relaxing. It'll be for sensitive skin. It'll be for problematic skin because I won't be able to use the term acne. It's not medical, you know. So you have to read between the lines. Where you'll get a better treatment as people who talk openly, especially on places like Instagram and show before and afters on people who use machinery if I want if I'm going for a facial I want machinery you know and I don't mean a steamer I mean lasers you know um arms flying around the place I love a good facial massage don't get me wrong but it needs to come after I've been zapped yeah and so you're going to get that more from an independent person who isn't really sort of not necessarily aligned with pushing product all the time and it's not that they do and these people have to make a living i don't mean it in a disrespectful fashion but you will be able to tell by looking at someone instagram and word of mouth you know if you've got friends who said oh my god i've just had this amazing facial if you know if you see someone their skin looks great say your skin looks amazing what are you doing differently and sometimes they will say you know but the biggest problem the industry has is that most people want to keep those things as secrets for themselves but not you but the anti-gatekeeper can you imagine it's They're like, oh, it's my facialist.

34:33Or it would be like, oh, it's my colorist. You know, it's my manicurist. You know, I don't want to have to wait. She's already manically busy. I can't see her for three weeks because she already can't fit people in. If I give her a shout out, I'll never see her. But that's what you're up against in day-to-day life with your friends. You know, it's like the opposite effect of, you know, in sort of customer service experience, for example, if someone has a good experience with a brand, they usually tell like three or four people in passing. If they have a bad one, they tell 20. And it's similar in a way that the people who are doing really brilliant facials and laser and peels and people who I would trust with my face, that again, there's only one of them, you know, there's only one of them and they can't replicate it without diluting it.

35:17So it is harder, but there are great facialists out there. It is possible to find. And when you find them, hold on to them. Yeah. And so I'd like to go through a few situations because I feel like they're generally FAQ type things. And I know lots of people will listen to this, hoping for some answers for them in particular. For someone who has developed acne for the first time in their life, what would you recommend in terms of a course of action, whether it is skincare, whether it is professionals, whatever it might be? It depends on, there's quite a few factors. It depends on their age. their lifestyle, and what was the precursor.

35:56So if it's a young person, like in their teens, and they've developed severe acne, I would say go to your GP in the UK. Go to your GP. You're lucky if you check your local practices, some GPs literally specialize in dermatology. So then they're not allowed to call themselves dermatologists because that's a protected term, obviously, as it should be, like a gynecologist, you know. But they can be GPs with a special interest in dermatology and they will be able to do most things that a dermatologist could outside of things like lasering and stuff that you would get if you went to a derm clinic. If it's hormonal acne in young women, for example, and it's very clearly once a month, you can treat that generally with product.

36:41It's when it's debilitating to the point of it's affecting their mental health, which it does, it's scarring, I would go medical immediately. if however you are you know you're just your skin's going through a shitty phase go to a facialist go to a clinic you know go and have some laser go and have some peels go and get some professional advice because you know I used to say that the way of differentiating the difference between needing or you know wanting to use a really good esthetician a facialist or a derm is you would go to a facialist to sort of prolong your skin health. Right. And you would, in the UK, certainly you'd go to a derm if you have a real problem.

37:23That's kind of how I see most people behaving. And it is also how I generally advise people to act. You know, because if I, the first thing I do, and it's usually a mum will message me and say, my teen is really suffering. The GP has given them antibiotics. We don't know what else to do. The weight is so long for a derm. Because in some areas you're looking two and a half, three years. It's ridiculous. And then when they send me a picture, I can immediately say, there's either two responses. One is, I would advise that you go to a derm privately and put it on your credit card, which I very rarely say.

37:54I don't want people getting into debt. I always say, don't credit card your skin care. But to me, a debilitating skin condition is a mental health issue as well. Or it's people saying, the doctor has recommended Raracutane. I'm really worried. And then I'll send me a picture. and you can just you can tell you'll be like do not waste your money on this 600 pounds worth of stuff you've been given from a clinic first of all medical grade is bullshit doesn't exist so stop with that we need to stop with that as an industry because we can sell product without trying to make people think it's better than something else they can get you know on the high street because what you're doing is being elitist and it really annoys me yeah I can tell really but I mean I said to someone this week if this was my child I would put them on Roaccutane and And I do not say that easily.

38:42And obviously I say I'm not a doctor. They will have to have the full medical history. But if your derm is already recommending it, I'd go with it. If they send me a picture and it's, you know, what my daughter would do when she was sort of 15, I've got acne, but she's got a few hormonal spots around the chin, then I'll recommend product. I'm like, well, ask them how often are they changing their pillowcases? You know, if they're at uni, it's do they ever change their pillowcase? Who are they snogging and how often? And is it different people? Because that will affect all around here. I don't need to know.

39:10I'm just saying ask them I don't want to know your kid's life but and it's just strange things like that that a lot of people don't think of it's you know it's kind of all the superfluous stuff that you do too are they partying do they smoke are they eating crap because ultimately you could say of course and I'm not a dietician or a nutritionist but I can you know I once told someone the direction that they blew the smoke out of their mouth based on their skin when I gave her a facial I said how many how long years have you been smoking she went oh my god do I smell I was like no not at all i can tell by your skin and she was obviously smokers really don't think you can tell do you know if vaping has an effect on your skin vaping's worse vaping is worse for your skin yeah so this this woman i said do you have quick fag breaks outside work and she was like yes and she you could tell she was like this woman's been stalking me and i said do you do this and she went oh my god i said because your center panel is about 15 years older than the side and She was like, I'm never going to smoke again.

40:07I'm done. I was like, good. Good. That's that time then. You can tell, you know, you can meet smokers who have good skin, but it won't, you're just, why would you do it? Don't do it. You know, but yeah, vaping is bad. What products that you can buy would you recommend for someone with, who's currently having acne issues? Well, the first thing I do is say, if it's a mum, I say, what have you already got at home? Because if they follow me, they've probably bought a lot of kits. And I'm all about people not spending money if they don't need to. so I'm like what have you got at home just take a picture of everything don't try and list it just take a picture if they're just like you know I've only ever used ponds or ole or there's nothing wrong with that but that's not going to help your team with their acne it's usually okay we're going to start with a gentle cleanser you don't have to go crazy and I know you don't want to spend a lot of money although parents of teens who have problem skin that's never an issue for them you know they might say we have a budget concern that's different that's completely different bring an acid into the mix a salicylic acid an easy cleanser a salicylic acid and a very very light usually oil-free moisturizer and that's kind of where you would start from if they've already tried that and nothing's working is when I sort of send them off to people and would you recommend that as well for someone who's for a non-teen situation so someone in their mid-20s yeah for sure yeah I mean acne is something you're never going to see on packaging because it's a medical term so you can't make any claims with things like acne rosacea they're medical conditions so half the time it's educating people just on that alone you know people go into a boots or a super drug and they're like i can't find anything for acne and i'm like you're not going to because they can't legally say it and it's usually the american brands that get into trouble for doing it but yeah acids you know like peels that will break down the spots things like that I've seen a lot online recently about tretinoin should and generally people getting it any which way in order to help their skin what types of people should be on tretinoin people with acne and people who are older like my age that have signs of aging they're not happy with you don't need to be on tret when you're in your 20s a lot of people will use it but you don't need to be most people so there's there's there's sort of professional services that are much more affordable than a derm like dermatica and skin in me that very cleverly set up almost like an online dermatologist so you send your pictures in and they'll give you a prescription and you get it monthly and then you have to send in pictures for updates now obviously this is never going to be a perfect science because a derm is if you have a real condition they're going to want to see you in the flesh you know so for that reason they can't for example treat younger people why would day that seems very good sense you know they will generally recommend certain ingredients for acne rosacea and pigmentation they're the big ones the big ones are sort of pigmentation especially at this time of year you know when everyone's been out in the sun right pigmentation acne signs of aging you know that kind of thing but it's you don't need to be on tret if you're in your mid 20s i got acne when i was about 40 and now i know of course that it was the onset of perimenopause right i piled on the weight i got acne constant brain fog all that sort of stuff and i had i mean i fixed it myself but i had to literally change my products complete 180 i'd always use like richer products for drier skin i had to stop all of it um it's balanced out now and dry again now but i'm post-menopausal so you would expect it it's for what is a problem for you and yes i spend a lot of time telling people look your skin is actually fine you've got a few hormonal spots it's going to happen is it worth you completely changing your skincare or it probably not you know some people i say just buy a good concealer and let it ride itself out you know but if it's affecting someone really badly then yeah i said go and go and see a facialist go and see this facialist they specialize in laser go to a derm and i recommend derms to people all the time but i can only do that if they live near london you know i don't have a walking directory for the rest of the uk sadly which people do shout at me about i'm like i don't know what you want me to do yeah i don't know what you want me to do i can put something on insta and say does anyone know a brilliant dermatologist but then i have to taste trust their recommendation yeah could be their mom um so then moving on from the acne what would you recommend for someone on a lower budget who needs to tackle acne scarring it depends how bad the acne scarring is because if it's already gone to the color of your skin you are going to have to go and see someone and there isn't a cheap way of doing it.

44:30You are going to have to go and have either laser or microneedling. If you've got acne scarring and it's their pink, for example, you can help them heal. And again, you won't find the word heal on packaging because that's a medical term, but that's essentially what you're trying to do. You can do that with things like a tretinoin. You know, you can do that with vitamin A's and retinoids. It's a slower process, but if you get in there early and do it, you can. And acids. acids and vitamin A's generally are good in that case it's different if for example you fall and bang your head and you've got a scar from a cut a laceration then there are products like there's a brand called kilocote which is almost literally like a coating that you put on that helps the scar heal that's a very different scar you know that's affordable that's in like a boots is it to treat a one-off big scar or are we talking about lots of where you've had breakouts and they've left scarring behind then that's different yeah and should everyone be on a retinoid no although there are a lot of derms especially american derms who would say yes but if you're happy with your skin and you've got a good skin why would you try and speed up the renewal process because that's essentially what it does it speeds up the renewal process so if your skin is already renewing in the right way you shouldn't leave it just take care of it use an spf you know have a little bit of an intervention if you get a breakout or things like that or if you've got a bit of sensitivity or you have a reaction to things you know people have allergies and things like that then by all means treat it then but you don't need to immediately go down the road of a vitamin a it's a fantastic ingredient don't get me wrong but you know if you're in your 30s 40s 40s for sure 30s i would still say it depends on your life your lifestyle and that kind of thing but equally you're pushing against people who sometimes just want to and that's what i've learned to just go if you want to knock yourself out shazza yeah enjoy enjoy I want to speak a little bit about medical grade products and I know that you say that that is a load of shite correct yeah could you explain that because I've definitely had a lot of medical grade stuff thrown my way so essentially in the UK in particular there is over-the-counter product so stuff that you can buy from Boots from Space NK from John Lewis anywhere online you know and all the brands that you could think of everything from an estee lauder to a beauty pie to a skin rocks to uh you know the ordinary anything like that is just a normal it's called a cosmetic it's a cosmetic product legally and then you've got prescription meds which you would get from a derm you know tretinoin uh certain types of blends of antibiotic creams and azelaic acids that are stronger and things like that.

47:12And then in between, you've got Dr. Derm Office, sometimes with an esthetician, like a facialist on the side, and they've got a wall full of product. Sometimes they put it behind a glass case and say that you can only have that with our advice. But actually, you can. It's just that that's how they decide to market their brand. So calling it medical grade, because the claims they make, they're the only ones who do clinical trials. That's not true. I clinically trialed my cleanser. I do clinical trial and everything. I only do a clinical trial. I only do a clinical trial. Yeah. Why more brands in the open sort of market don't do it, I don't know, because it's not extortionate.

47:48It's costly, of course, but it's not extortionate. There's no excuse for brands not to do it, you know. So the products penetrate deeper. It's not true. You know, to go past a certain point, you need a needle. And unless you're going to inject that moisturiser into your face with a needle. Which I don't advise. Which I don't advise, and you can't do, then that's also not the case. What you will get in that situation is a cohesive routine but it'll cost you more money sure and you're not guaranteed a result so if it's if it's medical grade there's no legal context for it it's marketing and it annoys me because i want to wholly support the professional industry of facialists but when they start towing that line of this is medical grade we put in now obviously there is going to be more active i would hope there are going to be more active ingredients and a higher percentage of ingredients in something that you would buy from a professional than the ordinary that's true but the ordinary is five pounds and you're going to try and sell someone something that's 150 right the difference has to be astronomical to my mind for me to say yes I would buy this you know so there are certain brands that choose to sell only in professional outlets that's absolutely your choice but let's not bullshit people and tell them it's because boots wouldn't be able to sell it right so it's exclusive rather than legally restricted oh yeah that's so interesting and elitist it's elitist yeah no absolutely and really annoying yeah i but that doesn't include things like skin and me no skin and me is a prescription right okay and dermatica the same business model is a prescription yeah so if you if you need a prescription for it it's a drug everything else on the market everything else is a cosmetic everything else yeah that's so interesting before we end i would like to know from you five products oh god specifically your desert island skincare products a cleansing balm my sort of standard go-to has been emma hardy for years emma hardy moringa cleansing balm i've used it for years there are other brilliant balms on the market it i could name 20 but top of my head that would be the one most people who followed me for years ago she's going to say emma hardy acid well the my favorite acid is p50 by biologique research the 1970 version which you can't even buy in the eu anymore because it's too strong that's why i like it perfect your face tingles burns and then goes bright red but the next day your skin looks like you've had a head full of botox off i go to the internet yeah you won't get it it's usually to america yeah you have to go to new york yeah so i've got that on tap but i wouldn't use it every day you know it's too much but it's a fantastic it's just because it was innovative you know and i trained in biology research 20 years ago and it was uh just a really good education retinoid i'll use my skin rocks retinoid too just because if i don't say something by my own brand my team will kill me and it's also great it's a fantastic retinoid let's to be honest moisturizer um only because i'm not going to sit here like those people go oh i only use my own product i hate that uh kate somerville peptide kate but you don't need that you're 26 i need it i am more than double your age kill me now i should say spf but i'm on desert island and i can't get off i don't give a shit anyway if it was spf it'd be like i like ultraviolet supreme screen but if i could drop spf because i'm you know don't get me wrong no one really wants to use an spf every day right it's just drag yeah Say what you want about AI, but it's here.

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52:09Atlantic Union Bank. Any way you bank. At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone. You'll get support from people who care about your success. Like your enrollment specialist who gets to know you and the goals you'd like to achieve. You'll also get a designated academic coach who's with you throughout your entire program. Plus, career coaches are available to help you navigate your professional goals. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. You know, it's almost like putting on knickers. You want to go commander every day, knock yourself out.

52:49I don't know many women who do, but knock yourself out. Eye cream, auto-correct, Sunday Riley. I don't work with any of those brands. None of them endorse me to say this. Now they're all going to make a pretty penny. That's fine. Yeah, pass that. Just send it to me for free. um p50 auto correct deep tissue repair and retinoid 2 would probably sort me out if i was like okay you have to do this if that's like my version of like table manners desert island meal great what about you oh god sorry the coin turns how the tables have turned okay so there would have to be my skin and me daily dose in there sounds like an ad genuinely changed my life.

53:27What's in your prescription, do you know? Tretinoin. Azelaic or niacinamide or something? Yeah, and niacinamide, I think. Great, you should work for them. 10 out of 10. You've done my prescription in one. So that would definitely be in there because nothing has ever affected my skin more. Your moisturizer, not just because I'm sitting opposite you, but it's really, really, really good. Do you use fragrance-free or fragranced? Fragrance-free. I'm a bit, in general, I'm weird about fragrances anyway, like I'm allergic to some fruits and stuff, so I just find it best to avoid. And also if you've had skin problems, sometimes it's easier just to not...

53:59Wager it, you know, I might as well not. So that I also find that weirdly, with a lot of even sensitive skin moisturizers, after I've used my Daily Dosa, because it's got actives in it, I find it tingles and yours doesn't, which is great. You know why? Why? Because I didn't pump it full of hyaluronic acid because hyaluronic acid can be really, really... Is that what it is? Yeah, you want glycerin, not hyaluronic acid. interesting then on the spf and i am like an spf like jehovah's witness like i really believe very strongly in spf um and also i think it's probably because it's something that i have actually done right for quite a few years and i like to you know you can tell that's that's that's good for my ego generally to have been right in it so um spf there's a few that i like i probably would always go back to the la roche posse one i like it i do think it's a little bit overhyped really i think it's just like it works well under makeup it is very give it its due la roche-posay do amazing innovation in science yeah they really do it's more my skin type i need a bit more i need a bit more butter on the bread yeah so i really like i also got the body shop one gifted one fantastic 50 plus plus fantastic re-bought that multiple times yeah and they've reformulated it they just sent it out last week it is really good interesting really good again god my basket's gonna be heavy after this then I know my fourth and fifth quarterly um vino perfect the serum is it vino perfect the serum yeah that so I only for ages used cleanser moisturizer and just my daily doser in the evening nothing just cleanser and moisturizer and SPF in the morning then I introduced the vino perfect skin texture amazing number five is another cordially and it's the vino pure the cleanser switched to that and made worlds of different for my skin so i've that's now my perfect like capsule that specific routine those are the ones i repeat well i'm in very good company i'm thrilled honestly you could tell me anything cordially at the moment and so if anyone's watching this and you know it's not my birthday or christmas coming up but i'm sure i can hook you up well i think that is a perfect place to end thank you so much I've learned so much I've also lost so much money based on the fact that I will be going straight I can always do cheaper alternatives I can always do a cheaper alternative no as I've said I prefer to spend more it makes me feel more effective thank you so much um no but you've been absolutely amazing you have taught me a lot I feel like the people have learned a lot from this you are such a breath of fresh air in an industry that is amazing in lots of ways but also can be very confusing and complex and just require hours and hours of research to actually get anywhere and you do not make it difficult for me um hence why i have all your products and i think you're great thank you so much for having me