Ep.70 Why You Should Be Taking More Risks For Love with Estée Lalonde

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1:13Because when your operations are smooth, your impact can be bigger. Visit business.warmart.com to get started. I said, if you don't propose to me, you can say goodbye to me and you can say goodbye to the dog because I am done. Estee La Lauche, they all started when she was just 19 and decided to move halfway across the world for love. She's spoken so openly about the highs and lows of relationships. And you moved across the world. That must have been terrifying. It was the easiest decision I've ever made. When that broke down, what was that experience like? It was either stick it out here and make a go of this or regret it for the rest of your life.

1:50It changed my life. I'm not going to waste any more of my time here. I'm either going to marry this man and we're going to do this thing, or I'm going to start trying to get pregnant on my own. I couldn't believe that he wasn't desperate to lock it down. So when was the cutoff?

2:13In today's episode of Working Hard Hardly Working, I am so excited to be chatting with Estée Lalonde. She is one of the OG beauty bloggers. And now she is founder of Bath & Body brand Mirror Water, which I love. The packaging is beautiful. You have to go and have a look at it. She's now got over 2 million followers, but it all started when she was just 19 and decided to move halfway across the world for love. We go through the story today and it is a crazy story. She's spoken so openly about her mental health and the highs and lows of relationships and now building a brand. And I cannot wait for you to hear this just like really nice girly chat.

2:51Like it felt like a very needed heart to heart about all things love relationships both of us have recently got engaged so we had a lot to talk about in terms of that and the conversations before that and it's just been such a wonderful chat we get very deep so do be prepared if you do like this episode please make sure to like subscribe review it really really helps us I do hope you really enjoy this episode I personally really enjoyed recording it thank you so much for joining me Thank you for having me. This is so exciting. I'm on the couch. She's here. It's not a Red Table Talk movie. Thank God it's not.

3:30No, I'm not ready for that. Okay, well, we can actually do your prep today for Red Table Talk. That would be perfect. I want to start at the very beginning, really. I like to get a little bit of background on guests so that we can kind of see the context of you. I'd like to talk a little bit about growing up in Canada. there could you paint me a little picture of what your life was like there yes so from under the age of say 10 it was me my mom my brother we lived in this little teeny tiny house and sometimes when I go home I drive past it it felt so big as a kid and now when I look at it I'm like gosh it was just so small and it was pink it looked like a little dollhouse and it was really why am I getting emotional already.

4:15Oh, that was good. Good girl. Great content. Thank you, Esther. It was just such a little sanctuary for us. You know, I love my mom and my brother so much. We're super close and I have amazing memories of that time. And it was a small suburb. There was nothing going on. We played outside on scooters and I loved chalk and like drawing on the drive. It was this very simple upbringing you know and was it just you your mom and your brother yeah my dad exists but it was kind of my parents got divorced when I was quite young I was like two years old I think my brother like was one so really my mom and my brother were like my core and my grandparents were a huge part of my life my grandparents live like super close and were there for my entire career life.

5:05Like, are you still really close? Yeah. Even on the other side of the world? Yeah. Even closer, I think. Really? Because I just miss them so much. Like, truly, it's so hard not to be around your family. And it's something that when I was in my early 20s, I'm getting emotional already, but whatever, Yolo. I cry all the time. It's something in my early 20s that I was like, I'm free. I'm doing my thing. This is the life I've always wanted to live. And it felt like it was never going to end. But now I'm in my mid thirties and I just got engaged and I'm thinking about having a family and like my mom's not here and my brother's not here and he's married and he's going to have a family and I'm not there for all those little micro joys throughout the week.

5:50And I'm really starting to miss my family more than I have for years. I want to first ask at that time, like when you were younger in Canada, what were your career aspirations? I had no idea what I wanted to do or what I wanted to be. And that was a huge struggle for me because all my friends were like, I want to be this and I want to be that. And I just never had that thing that I knew I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to have my own thing. I never wanted to work for someone else, even though I did for so long. I had so many retail jobs and everything, but I always wanted to do my own thing. But I felt like I wasn't good at anything.

6:28It wasn't like I was really good at, I don't know, skateboarding. I don't know where that came from. And then I wanted to do that, but I wasn't really good at anything. That's how I felt. And I wasn't super academic, although I did get good grades. I just, nothing was like sticking to me. And that was really frustrating. But when I was about, I don't know, 14, we went to New York from where I grew up. That was huge. That was the first time I'd ever really been out of my suburb. And I remember thinking, I don't know what I need to do to be walking down these streets, but that's what I want to do.

7:00And that was a big trip for me. I remember thinking, this is super cool. I want to be able to fit in in a place like New York. But what's interesting is I went to Toronto for university, which is like considered a big city for someone who grew up where I did. And I was terrified. It did not work out for me. I ran home very, very quickly and I felt super overwhelmed and I was really, really scared. And that's when I started to think, okay, I thought I wanted to live in a big city and like do this thing I can't hack it here and I went back to my small town my safety realm and I was really confused I had no clue what I wanted to do and I kind of remember thinking well I guess I'm gonna have to settle for this and you've said publicly before that you think you've been depressed from the age of six could you talk to me a little bit about that and how that kind of shaped your childhood?

7:57Yeah. I talked to so many people who have a similar experience about this, like in my personal life. Some people don't know what I'm talking about, but my mom has depression. My grandma has it. Her mother had it. It's something that really runs in my family and it's something that was always around me. I was never scared of it. In fact, this is kind of crazy and weird, but I remember thinking, not I hope I get it, but I remember thinking it was like part of like becoming a woman. Right. Because it was what you saw as the grown up woman in your life. Yeah. And I remember thinking like, I don't know, like I wonder if that's going to happen to me, but I was never scared of it.

8:38But I definitely like saw my mom being low, but she was always managed to kind of like take care of my brother and I and go to work and she was always very presentable, but then sometimes she would be like really down on the weekends and stuff like that. But looking back, I was definitely depressed as a kid. No kid thinks about stuff the way I feel like I did. I've always kind of been an, I don't even consider myself an overthinker. I think I'm a deep thinker. Not about like the meaning of life and I'm not like a philosopher, but I always like feel things really deeply and try to understand the way I'm feeling.

9:16I think it started to really become clear when I was making friends and the girls just seemed so happy-go-lucky. I remember like thinking, why don't I feel like that? Just the things that they liked and cared about, like S Club 7 and like all these things, like it wasn't even like on my radar. I was trying to think like, what's my favorite book and what does that say about me and I was low I was definitely low and obviously my parents being divorced didn't help because I was always kind of a go-between between my mom and my dad and that definitely didn't help but I think it's something that I was born with like I don't think my circumstances would have changed my depression very much and when you say that you'd seen that in your mom and grandma yeah grandma yeah like whatever what I've just applied a name to her yeah and Mary how did that like manifest like what were you seeing I remember one particular time when my mom said if I'm ever getting snappy tell me I need to take one of my happy pills right I remember her saying that to me once I remember thinking what what is she even talking about yeah I want my nose yeah like I didn't get it I didn't and and that was one time I had that conversation with her and that was never brought up again and she kind of got it under control I think my mom just tired stressed but that's like normal stuff I could I don't know I could just like sense it with a vibe you know if someone's low you can tell but she was always putting on a brave face obviously childhood is so formative in who you are today I think it's really interesting that you say having seen like that was what you saw as adulthood that was what you saw as women once they were no longer children and I think that's so interesting do you ever think that that wouldn't have happened like was that when you were growing up did you ever think well that's not going to be me no no I knew it was going to be me because I already started to feel it I never felt responsible for my mom in any way like my mother was my mother and she was in control.

11:31Like, let me just be clear about that. I never felt like I needed to make her happier or I never felt like I needed to do anything. Like she was definitely the one taking care of us. But I do remember being very conscious of how she felt all the time. And I wanted her to feel good. So I wasn't misbehaving very much. I mean, she's probably going to say otherwise. She's like, wrong. She's probably like, no. But I remember thinking like, mom's really stressed right now. She's calling her bank and making sure she's got enough money for this and that and I remember thinking like I'm not gonna ask for that thing that I want you know and do you think that's made you hyper aware of other people's feelings I'm super hypersensitive to people's vibe too much like sometimes even my Beyonce will say something and I'll be like are you upset with me right now he's like no but like that's like in me right yeah and you obviously moved across the world to London Why did you do that?

12:29Yeah, it's a great question. Just to put it straight. It feels like yesterday, but I kind of described that time when I just came back from Toronto and I was like, I can't hack this and I don't know what I'm doing. And actually, I went to a local community college to take an interior design course because I was like, maybe my calling is interior design. I quite like fabric. Well, I saw your renovation of your first flat and I would personally agree. Well, that's what I kind of was thinking. And that also was just like, it was fine, but it wasn't like the interior design course of my dreams. It was like a community college.

13:07Anyway, at that time, then I met my ex-boyfriend now online. He lived in London. Long story short, I ended up moving to London to be with him. And had you met him before this point? Before I moved, yes. But we had an online distance relationship for about nine months. So how had you seen each other in person considering you were halfway across the world? He flew to Toronto and we met. And then we did an amazing road trip across America. And that trip lasted for about two months. And then two weeks after that road trip ended, I moved to London. And what were your family thinking at this time? My brother always thinks I'm nuts.

13:46Sure. My mom was really into it. She was like, follow your heart. But they had bets of how long I would last. Really? Yeah. It was the easiest decision I've ever made. We were so in love. I just turned 19. Yeah. I was so stupid. I had no idea what I was doing. It was beautiful. It was amazing. It was such a whirlwind. It was the opportunity I was always looking for to like have a reason to go do something. And I had someone in London who loved me and wanted to support me. And also my mom and my brother saying like, you're never going to last, whatever. That was kind of like fuel for me because I've got this streak in me that's like, you're telling me I can't do it?

14:27Okay, well, watch me. There's something in my being that's kind of like that. But then when I did move, it was very difficult. It was way harder than making the decision to move. I was really depressed when I moved to London, like next level. I've never been that depressed in my entire life. And if it wasn't for my mom saying like, just spend one more day in London, just one more day, call me in the afternoon, see if you still feel the same. Because I was always trying to fly home, even though I was really in love with the person. It was just like the homesickness was so, and being out of my comfort zone.

14:58And you must have, I mean, I assume you knew no one other than him. How was that in terms of building your own life? Because it's one thing moving across the world and trying to make friends, but also when you're part of a unit, then their friends kind of become your friends and having your own identity is quite I mean it's hard to find friends outside of that well I didn't so that was you know maybe part of the problem was we were each other's world anyways eventually I did start to forge my own path with like creating a blog and a YouTube channel and all those things and I started to have my own life and that was the beginning of becoming myself but for a very long time I was in a little love bubble which was beautiful and I look back on that time really fondly but that's not really sustainable especially as a woman like you need to you know spread your wings no I completely agree but it's so interesting because I'm a very I am an overthinker and I am the type of person who wants a plan for everything so I'm not going to do something unless I have like a well this is what happens if this route goes like if we go down this route this is what happens here this is the backup plan like that's how I do things and listening to you say this talking about the time that you were 19 and all of this I'm like that's exactly what people should be doing at 19 and I understand that it's like you know not everyone can do that but to be like you have the opportunity and I actually listened to you saying it and it's so funny because it's so different from like what my thought process would be and I'm also like there was nothing wrong with doing that and I'm sure that added to your life so much.

16:27It changed my life. It is the reason I am who I am today. But I do remember thinking, like, what's my other option? Move back home and be miserable for the rest of my life. And I really saw it that way. It was either stick it out here and make a go of this or move back home and regret it for the rest of your life. I was not prepared to do that. Living in my hometown is something that I have just never wanted to do. My brother lives there with his wife. They're so happy. And sometimes I look at them and I think, God, that looks nice, but it's not for me. It's not for me, but they're so happy. I'm just so glad I did it.

17:05But again, it's all because of my mom pushing me. I don't think we talk about enough how much of a privilege it is to have people who support you taking risks. And I do think that like a lot of what we do, especially with like online culture now is like mitigating that type of risk because we don't want to have made a stupid decision and actually making stupid decisions and making decisions that aren't actually entirely driven by your head and your mind. You can only do that really when you're young. You're right. Like, I don't make those kinds of decisions now. I think about everything. I have so much responsibility now.

17:39I can't just move. I can't just go do something because I feel like it. So I'm glad I did it then. But I don't think I could necessarily do it now. So you obviously talk about having moved to London. and then almost finding yourself kind of in a job that really didn't exist before, which is obviously beauty blogging. How did that happen? I was so lonely in London, as I said, and I had no one here except my boyfriend at the time. And I was working a part-time job at Triumph, which is a lingerie, well, you can call it lingerie, it's like underwear. and I was working there and I wasn't really becoming friends with anyone at work.

18:25And I just started thinking, how am I going to make friends? I don't know. I'm so depressed. Like, what am I going to do? And I was like, I need to do something to cheer myself up. So I Googled best Mac lipsticks because I was like, I need a lipstick. I'm 19. I don't even own a lipstick. It's crazy. And instead of binding the lipstick, I found all of these amazing blogs. and that was really revolutionary at the time. I'd never seen this. Obviously, I've seen Tumblr and stuff like that, but these were like blogs designed by the girlies. Every blog had its own vibe. Every blog had its own design.

19:00Every blog was talking about different things. I was obsessed and I didn't even go get a lipstick that day. I was reading the blogs and I remember thinking, I need to start a blog. I wish I could. I wonder if I could. No, I can't. I could never do that. And that's my issue sometimes. It's like, ooh, I wonder if I could do that. No, I can't. That was my issue at the time. I did eventually start a blog and I did it mostly because I wanted to make friends. I wanted to make friends in the UK and all of the UK girls were like, I just loved seeing what they were wearing and what they were doing and who they were friends with.

19:35And I became so obsessed with it. And I started a blog and eventually I got invited to like blogger meet and greets. and then it was basically like a snowball. And so how did it start to take off? Because I mean, you at the time were working in something very different. I don't also think there was much formal understanding of things like SEO and like how you're coming up high on like Google and all of those things at the time. But that would have been like intrinsically a part of it in terms of, you know, people discovering you and all of that. Was it before Instagram was in use for it? Yeah, I think so.

20:11Or around that time. And so how were people discovering you? Literally through who this blogger was following. You'd see who they were following, who was commenting under the post. That's how you discovered people. It's wild looking back on it now. But there was still the thought process of, oh, my God, this person's following me. That's good. You know, you felt that. And there was also like, oh, I should comment on this person's post so they know I exist. but it wasn't like it is sort of like today. Yeah. There were no collaborations of sorts at that early, early stage. And then sometimes bloggers would mention another blogger in a blog post.

20:52You know, that was crazy. That was huge. But I remember like my blog getting something like 3 million views in a month and stuff like that. That is crazy. This was a very different time. My blog – I don't have a blog now really but that would never happen now. Right. Right. But back then that was like something that was happening regularly. Because it was how people use in the internet. Yeah. Yeah. And what were they about? Just beauty? Beauty mostly. I went and bought like a lipstick and I would take a picture. Like I didn't know how to take pictures. Like my boyfriend at the time let me use his camera and I would like take a picture of the outer box and I would take a picture with the lipstick beside the box.

21:32And then I would open the lipstick and take a picture of that. Then I would do a swatch and then I would put it on my lips and take a selfie and like you know there was like a procedure that I had to like photograph each product and yeah I would do a whole blog post on one lipstick and like really delve deep into it it's a creamy formulation that sits on the lips well like literally now it's like who cares but at the time the the thing to do was to really like dissect a product it's so interesting because I look at like tiktokers now and I look at how much they can generate in terms of content and I look at it in terms of what I'm doing and I'm like fucking hell like they are insane like you are amazing like how are you getting that much out at the beginning of every social platform that was getting this kind of magnifying factor and when you have that kind of like enthusiasm for it and like energy I'm like bitch I do not have that energy now I wish I say the exact same thing like the tiktokers now it doesn't feel difficult to them to churn out content and I say the same thing I was doing a vlog every single day it felt like nothing to me it felt like drinking water it was like just something I did and so how did you start making money at this stage I mean you're saying you were getting three million hits a month and I can see why you would be making money but it obviously was a very different time can you talk me through the like initiation of brand deals and all of that.

22:57I was getting 3 million views a month for like years before I made any money. I didn't know what I was doing. Nobody knew what they were doing. I remember my friend saying, you should get some ads on your blog and me not even understanding what she meant by those words. You know, there were companies that were cropping up that were putting ads on people's websites. And finally I did it. But I remember thinking this is going to look so ugly and my audience is going to hate me. And you know, it was, it was a fine line between making money because it's your you're doing it all the time and it has to be your job and then like annoying the people reading and then same with YouTube like you know brand deals coming along it felt awkward to accept a brand deal it's not like it is now where you can just like yeah talk about a product I was actually just thinking that because I actually haven't thought about in a while I'm not sure in my head I've recognized how much the attitude towards ads has changed because I was just thinking how I used to think about ads and I used to be scared shitless every time I was about to post them just because it was it was a detraction from your content and it was seen as a money grab rather than a well I'm doing this and I'm spending all my days doing this so it's obviously a job so I need to make some money from it somewhere I just I remember being like terrified every time I had to post an ad same like literally posting it and staying by the computer to wait to see how mad people would be about it.

24:18That's so, I hadn't even thought about how much that has changed. That must be a universal experience. I still sometimes, if I promote something, I'm like, oh, how's this going to go down? But it doesn't affect my life like it did then. When you started earning money, what was the transition between doing that and then kind of going full time? Well, I said to myself, let's try this for a year. And I quit my part-time jobs. I was working at Topshop. I was working at Triumph and I was working at a furniture place. And I was studying as well. I was in university because I was 19. Well, I was like 21 by this point.

24:51I didn't know you went to university in the UK. Well, I didn't graduate. Right. So, and it wasn't a British university. It was a Canadian one that I had started, long story. But I was studying psychology. So I was like learning about psychology and like photographing lipstick and then like going to work at Topshop. And I remember saying something's got to give. You're not going to be able to do any of these things well. So the first thing that went was the university dropped out of that immediately. I didn't like it anyways. And number two, then I started to have this money coming in. And so I said, I'll give myself a year and give it my all.

25:25And I remember like having the conversation with myself, like don't half-ass this, like try. And there's something really vulnerable in that because if you fail and you know you've tried, how awkward is that? You're like, that's embarrassing. so it was really nerve-wracking and I remember like the first day when I was like full-time doing YouTube and stuff I remember thinking okay let's do this luckily it worked out and so obviously this has kind of taken off at this point and you're you know you forged your own path in London you've come halfway across the world and you've made something that is entirely yours and you know is doing really well I mean it sounds like it was doing incredibly at this time Yeah.

26:04Obviously, part of this was the fact that you, you know, you were sharing your relationship publicly. You'd obviously moved across the world. I mean, I found it hard enough to be vlogging and not sharing a relationship when I wasn't living with anyone. So obviously that was going to be part of it. How was that experience sharing a relationship? It just felt so natural to share my relationship. I moved across the world for this person. He was my world and I was sharing my life. So I never once thought of the consequences of sharing that relationship. A few years into it, we started like getting comments like, you know, little things like, oh, at two minutes and 12 seconds, do you see the way Estee looks at him?

26:47She obviously is a huge bitch or whatever the comments would be, right? That really gets in your head. And then, you know, other comments like he obviously doesn't even love her, like stuff like that. And I know - You're like, that's what my internal voice says. Yeah, they say everything. That's so funny that you've got the same thoughts. I know. No. So, you know, there is an impact to be had with that. And I'm not saying that was the reason we broke up or anything, but it adds to it. And my work became such a huge part of our life. And it was an absolutely crazy time. The market's uncertain. Revenue's tied and hiring on hold.

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29:13and so when that broke down what was that experience like as someone who had shared your whole relationship online never thought I would ever experience it and never thought I'd have to share it and you don't know how to navigate those things and then you don't know how to navigate them online so that must have been your first big breakup as well yes yes yes and your girl got seriously hectic and how did you feel posting around that time because from my experience when I've shared relationships online when you go through a breakup it is wild how quickly you think fuck. Well, it was a nightmare to say the least.

30:03First of all, I don't even know where to begin. It was just the worst time of my life. You're so devastated anyway, no matter why you break up, as you said, it's a huge life change. And the embarrassment is real. I've been, you know, you've gone through a breakup since and you tell your friends and you're like embarrassed for whatever reason. Now imagine telling your audience of over a million people who all have an opinion as to why you broke up, even though they have no idea, you know? So that is tough. And then not being able to control the narrative and them saying like, well, they broke up because this thing happened and not being able to say, that's not even true.

30:39Yeah. Tanya. I don't even know. I don't even know Tanya. But you know, it's like, it's not even true. Yeah. And you can't say anything you just have to let it go but it's a huge added burden on top of your life falling apart it was the worst time ever I think probably I assume as part of that you obviously had to navigate moving and yeah or you know different living situation you've obviously moved halfway across the world for someone and then you're not with them anymore and it is you know nearly a decade later but that's I mean that's probably even more added to it did you ever consider going back to Canada?

31:14I definitely considered it for like two seconds. Sure. I definitely thought I was going to move to New York. I thought that was going to be the thing I did because it was closer to my family. I had lots of friends there and that was the thing I thought I wanted to do. But anyway, that didn't work out. London is where I spent all of my 20s. My entire world is in London. So I ended up staying in London and I'm still here and I'm engaged.

31:46You've talked about how much your dog is a big part of your life. How has, and I asked this because I know the answer for me, how has having a dog impacted your mental health? She is my world. She is my passion. She is my reason for being. When I wake up in the morning, I always feel like I could go one of two ways. FML or, oh my God, Effie, my dog. So she's just my sunshine. And when did you get her? She's four now. So I got her when she was six months old and she's, oh my God, it's been, that's been a whole other situation. I adopted her from Greece, from a charity called Wild at Heart Foundation, and she's a little miss nervous.

32:34She's scared of her own shadow. She is the most nervous creature. Yeah. She hates people. She's scared of the wind. For the first four or five months, she wouldn't look at me in the eye. She wouldn't eat in the same room as me. And that was all happening during the pandemic. So I felt so alone. I had just went through another breakup and I was living in my flat by myself, away from my family in the middle of the pandemic. I just adopted this dog who wants nothing to do with me. I'd just lost my previous dog my greyhound who I that's my soulmate it was the worst time in my life but now she's my everything and you've recently got engaged I did congratulations big shocker because no one even knew I had a bae yeah I mean I want to talk about this and obviously it is like whatever you want to share and whatever you don't want to share you obviously made the decision to keep this relationship private yeah could you talk a little bit about that so after the world's worst breakup of all time.

33:33Sure. And I think another thing I want to say about that is we broke up during like the height of YouTube basically for me and my career, if you could say my YouTube career. So it wasn't like now. I feel like if I broke up with someone now, it would be like, oh, sad. Yeah. Moving on. At that time, it was a hot topic. So anyway, after that experience and the trauma and having to rehash that breakup, I mean, most normal people don't talk about a relationship from five years ago but because I shared so much people know so much they feel like it was yesterday anyway after that I swore I would never share a relationship ever again that was just like something I said to myself because first of all I would never want to go through it personally but second of all I would never want the other person to have to go through that publicly yeah no I can imagine and you feel a responsibility to them even though they also got a lot of benefits from it but it's also like as in you know absolutely it was you who made that decision I always think that I'm always like come for me as much as you want but like this person did not put themselves online yeah I haven't even really so like fuck right off like that is the point that we will find yes I know I know I'm so protective of him and so what lessons did you bring into this relationship oh Gosh, don't make your job your life, even though it is.

34:58He has no social media, so he doesn't even get anything. Like if I say a phrase like, what's the tea? Like he doesn't even know what that means. He's like, build us. He's just so different to anyone I've ever dated. So I've taken that in. This is like a separate thing, but like my temper has chilled out a lot in this relationship. I can be a little mean because I'm so stressed. Not in this relationship though. I'm a lot nicer. So he calms you. He's very calming. He's Mr. Chill. That's what we call him. And have you spoken about how you met or how long you've been together? We met on Hinge. We've been together for like two and a half years, something like that.

35:40But we had a breakup in there for a while. We call it the patch. When you meet someone in your 30s, it's different to when you meet someone in your 20s and you grow up with them. When you meet someone in your 30s, you're already a fully formed individual. And it's really difficult to kind of bring those two people together. It's not like when you're in your 20s and you fuse as one. It's really difficult. So when you're dating in your 30s, you're like, okay, am I going to marry you? And if so, is this the reality of it? Like, it's tough. It's really tough. And did you have conversations around getting engaged before you oh engaged did we have conversations what else was that that was the only thing i spoke about i wanted to get engaged so badly i wanted to be engaged forever and i went viral on tiktok about this because i said how is everyone out here getting engaged just wondering everyone i see is getting engaged yeah except me um hello what are why it's so funny because when i was thinking about this and when I was getting like little inklings of my own engagement like upcoming I was like this is the strangest concept when you really think about it like the concept of someone being like yes I will be with you forever and I will give you a ring and I will get down on one knee to ask that even though we've previously spoken about this because obviously it's a conversation we're gonna have as adults and also before making a big investment into something like a ring and like all of this and so it's actually like I was just thinking over and over and I was like this is very bizarre guys but I was also you know I have also been someone who has seen that even though I know it's not the be-all and end-all at all it hasn't been for me I don't think it should be for anyone but I do think you see it especially if you've had any sort of abandonment issues yeah you see it as something where someone is genuinely being like I choose you I choose you above everything and I choose you as like the person to build this with and from this point forwards we will work out whatever we will work out and I understand I mean I'm a child of divorce as well like and I understand like I've actually never seen a long-standing no same never seen it this is you know it's a wonder I even think this is like a good idea it's like a pledge it's a it's a decision and I also so and it's so funny because a lot of the people I a lot of the women I speak to who I think you would never care about that are also the women who are like I shouldn't care about this it's off-brand for me to care about this I don't know why I do society whatever I don't know and I don't care but I did care about it and I feel great and I am very happy because I don't I can't explain it our relationships changed since we got engaged I don't know if you feel that way I feel way more solid so the engagement itself yes you'd been talking about it up to this point.

38:35I wasn't talking about it. Right. I said, if you don't propose to me, you can say goodbye to me and you can say goodbye to the dog because I am done waiting around. And when was this in your relationship? Early. Too early. I just loved him. As soon as I met him, I loved him. And I couldn't believe that he wasn't desperate to lock it down. I'm a Leo too, though. I was like, what do you have to think about? But after the sort of one and a half year mark I was like I'm not gonna waste any more of my time here because I'd rather be single I would rather be single and I love being single for the record it's amazing it's my best part of my life there's this narrative of like women who are like basically telling men to like do this and all of this but it's like but you say that at the same time as having a recognition of the fact that actually like women do have to have a certain timeline especially if they want children and And I'm not saying that anyone needs to get engaged or married before having children.

39:35But if that is what you want, it takes the average woman two years to get pregnant. Like there is going to be an element of time on it. Look, Grace, I didn't want to have to ask. I didn't want to give an ultimatum. But unfortunately, he's Mr. Chill. And he wanted to get married to me too. But I think it just would have taken him like 100 years. He's slow. He's a slowpoke. He's a turtle. And I don't want to spend that time. I'm already sure what's going on here. I wanted to get married before I had kids. It's something that was important to me. And I don't know why, because it's so backwards. It makes no sense, but it's just important to me.

40:10Okay. I said that to him and he did it. And congratulations to him. He's getting to marry me and I'm getting to marry him all because I pushed it along. Look, if he didn't marry me, if he was, if he was like, look, I don't want to marry you. That would have been fine. I just wanted to know, is this in the future for us? I just want to know because if it's not, I'm going to move on. It wasn't like, you know, forcing him to marry me. It was more of speeding it up a little bit to say, is this something you want? As far as I saw it, I was at a crossroads. I'm either going to marry this man and we're going to do this thing, or we're going to break up and I'm going to start trying to get pregnant on my own.

40:48And I didn't know which way it was going to go. It was up to him at that point. That's so interesting. So is that something that you'd set as a - Yes. That's what I was going to do. And I wouldn't have any issue doing that. I have great friends. I have a great support system. Sorry, I don't need a man to have a baby with. I mean, in some ways, I think it would be easier if I didn't have a guy around annoying me all the time with his dirty socks. But that was what I thought I was going to do. And so when was the cutoff point? The end of the summer. Really? Yes. And when did he propose? Well, he proposed the 14th of August or 15th or something like that.

41:29And he already had the plan to do it. And then on like the 1st of August, I brought it up or something like that. And he was like, so when is the last day of summer? And I said, end of August. He was like, oh, I thought you said it was like end of September. I was like, don't test me because it's the end of August. I will be going to the clinic. Yeah. It's the end of August for me, hon. and he already knew he was going to do it that's so funny yeah what I love about this as women having been told to be the chill girl and having been told that that's the default and therefore if you don't do it you're not going to get what you want and then I kind of like was like drawing a line and being like well actually every non-chill girl I know has got exactly what they want because they've been very clear with what they want I didn't personally have like this timeline there has never been a point that I've been chill even though actually at this stage it wasn't something that I was like this is like right now it was like well if we're talking about a future this is current this is what my view of the future looks like just FYI just FYI and I really like how you own not being chill it's who I am he's very happy now he tells me when I put a gun to his head no he's he's he's said to me like what was he waiting for kind of thing he feels really happy about everything.

42:45We have so much fun together. I wish I could share the relationship because it's a great relationship. We literally laugh 24 seven. And do you think you will share it at some point? No. I mean, maybe, but probably not. It's too sacred. It's too sacred. Yeah. If it ain't broke. Yeah. And like, he's just not about that life. He just doesn't want to be on camera like at all i think when we get married i'll share some photos yeah but i don't even say his name so you haven't showed his face no i sure he could be any man on the street anyone i showed his elbow twice and someone was like is that the same elbow we saw in italy can you tell me very quickly yeah about the proposal very calm and chill exactly how i wanted it, walking the dog, endorse it.

43:38There were some wild horses. It was cute. It was just very low key. I couldn't believe it, even though I made it happen. But I couldn't believe that he actually did it. It was amazing. Yeah. No, I can imagine that feeling. I want to talk about Marowater. Okay. You have an incredible brand. What was the decision behind starting it? So talking about chill, I have no chill. I'm stressed all the time. I always say I'm the most stressed out person that owns a relaxation brand. But that's why. That's why. Because I need it. I'm my customer. I have worked in the beauty industry for so long. I always knew I wanted to create a brand.

44:19I never knew what it would be. And I was always trying to like make things fit. And I was like, that's not right. That's not right. I was like, I could launch a lipstick and I could do this. And obviously, you know what it's like over the years, you get approached to kind of put your name on products all the time. And no, no, no, no, no. But during the pandemic, when I was at my lowest, I think that was when I started to think more seriously. And I had a lot more space in my brain to think about what I wanted to do and what I wanted to achieve with my life. And I had been creating content for about 12 years at that point.

44:49So I'd kind of like been around the block. I just found myself taking a lot of baths to just get through the week and the day. I realized that there is a gap in the market for bath and body care. It's kind of like the last category to have like a huge boom. We've seen like skincare boom. We've seen hair care, but a lot of people kind of ignore that 90 % of their body below the neck. And one thing I talk a lot about online, yes, is my mental health, but it's also body image. And I think we don't even touch our bodies. We want to pretend they don't exist sometimes, you know, and there's something about being in a bath and seeing your naked self.

45:29There really is. Yeah. Like I literally lie like. Yeah. And it's like, that's my body. It's weird, right? It is a really weird feeling. Oh, I also find that if you're short, you don't stay upright properly in the bath. So I'm like, kind of like hunched, but also like holding myself up and then kind of just looking down like, huh, okay. That's going on there. And my bath time and my shower time is my time to self-reflect. it's my time to process. So that's a little behind the name, Mirror of Water. And I had been working on it during the pandemic and planning it and trying to raise money to do that during the pandemic and taking Zoom calls.

46:05And I'd never done that before, but I really wanted a challenge. And similar to my thoughts on creating a YouTube as my full-time job, I said to myself, just try this, give it your all, like really try, don't half-ass this. If you're going to do this, do this. And once I made that commitment, it's kind of been full steam ahead and you know what that's like. Like it just takes over your life. And what's been the hardest part? Working with a team in the sense that I've never worked with a team before. I've always worked for myself. I've always worked by myself from home with my own game plan, doing everything and learning to delegate, learning to manage people.

46:47I've never done that before. Now I have a team of like six, Just managing emotions, managing workload, managing expectations, and just learning how to be a boss. Because I've always had my own company in the sense of what I did with my content creation and stuff, but I've never had to manage other people. That is a huge skill that no one teaches you. And also, you're trying to do your job, which is run the company. Plus, I'm trying to vlog and create content, and that's my real job. It's a lot. It's a lot. But I think just that whole process, especially that first year of, you know, setting things up like Slack and Notion and having boundaries.

47:27Like we're not WhatsAppping each other. We're emailing and talking on Slack. And that was a huge learning curve for me. But I love it. And so what's the big aim for the brand? I have a lot of goals. I love the brand. I firstly need to say that I eat, breathe, sleep this brand. And I'm sure you feel the same. I really want to see the brand and the community grow. I want to be able to do more in the US. I want to be able to do more here in the UK and Europe. And I want to be able to kind of, of course, launch new products. And that's all very exciting. But I want to do more things that I'm good at, like podcasting and creating an online community as well as releasing products.

48:13And I think that's really what sets us apart. Of course, we've got beautiful products, but we have an amazing community of people that are interested in wellness in terms of what's actually realistic, you know, what's actually going to make me feel better, regardless of if it's the Bath and Body products is like going for a walk today for 15 minutes. And we talk a lot about that and we do amazing community events. And I want to be able to put more of my energy in those sorts of things. Whereas right now I'm kind of like Christmas packaging. What is the MOQ you, I'm that gift wrap. You know, that's not really where my skillset lies.

48:49I'm doing it and I'm learning it, but I really want to be able to grow the community element of the brand. And like, when you look at success for you, knowing what you've been through, knowing what your life's looked like to date, what does that look like? Like, what's your biggest desire in terms of success for yourself? My biggest desire is having kids ASAP, not now, because I have a brand baby that I'm trying to grow. Sure. So that's my focus. And they do act out. Yeah, they do. They can be naughty. She's a little toddler. I want to have kids. That's something that I'm really into. And I want to be working.

49:30And I want to set an example to my kids that you can be a working mom. You can have depression and still slay. And I want to have an amazing team. and I want to, I really want to start mentoring younger people. And sometimes I do that with my assistants. I mean, depending on the assistant and what they want to learn, but I want to show them like what it's like, you know, and I, I love that element of things. I want to have like an internship program. That's what I get excited about. That would be pretty cool. I think. What is your greatest achievement? My relationship with my mom, I think. Oh, I love that.

50:12I really, really love that. Why do you think that's so good? It's just the best and it does take work. And I think we choose, we choose each other. My mom is my everything. What is your non-negotiable habit that keeps you going through every day? Clean space. When my flat is a mess, I am a mess. I need an organized space. That is a non-negotiable. Who is your career hero? So like who did you or do you look up to? This is maybe too generic, but I genuinely look up to anyone that's launched a brand full stop. It takes a lot to do that. When you look at people who have, who is doing it how you'd like to do it?

51:01My mentor, her name is Marie. She launched a company called Galenae. It's a skincare brand, probiotic skincare brand. and she's taught me everything that I know. So she's, shout out to Marie, basically. What is your best founder moment? Launching the brand in Space NK, that was our first retailer. That was huge for me. And then Liberty after that. And is part of your strategy to be in a lot of retail? Yeah, I think retail is pretty essential to us. Currently, about half of our sales come from D2C and half from B2B. But I think retail is really exciting and that's how you get that brand awareness.

51:42And it really kind of gives the brand a little tick of Liberty thinks this is good. Space and Kay thinks this is good. I must be doing something right. It's for me, it's been helpful. If you could change one thing about starting a business, what would it be? I think I wish there was more opportunity with women in finance. I think it's getting a lot better. and I've been like included in so many founder groups and all of that sort of thing. But when I launched the business, I didn't know anything. I didn't know what a P &L was. To be honest, I still kind of don't. I'm still a bit lost here. But that is a huge kind of world, learning more about finance earlier on.

52:28And how have you self-educated in finance? YouTube podcasts I go to VC events and meet people and talk to people and oh it's so hard though because it's not my skill set I failed math three times I also think that we have this problem with seeing finance not as a founder specialty when actually if finance is a founder specialty then there's probably not going to be a lot of space for yeah what is going to make a good brand or a good product like the majority of founders who hit the mark so well in terms of brand and product the aim is the product the aim is the brand yeah like that is not a good space for them to be but obviously at the beginning of the business you have to be well versed in that and it's like trying to manage your own budget but far more complicated with payment terms everything is determined by cash flow you might be making a lot but actually if you don't have the cash flow to be able to place the stock in time with the certain payment terms if you can't improve those payment terms because you're a small player.

53:30And learning that on the fly, when everything's at stake. Right. And I was going to say your packaging is beautiful. So I can imagine the MOQs on that wouldn't have been too friendly. Well, I have a really great relationship with our packaging supplier. And luckily, he cut me a deal. I batted my eyelashes a little bit. Well, it looks great. Thank you. Thank you. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on. You've been incredible. I feel like this has been a lovely chat to start the day. I know. I feel like this has been a therapy. Your business is one of a kind, so your website should be too.

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54:56a limited time prices and participation may vary recession i feel good well perfect i have no qualifications so don't take anything from this oh but thank you so much thank you so much