Ep. 72 Let's Talk About How To Be A Better Manager

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1:31Welcome back to Working Hard, Hurdley Working. I don't know why I'm holding my jeans as if I'm on like a roller coaster, but this will be a roller coaster ride. This will be a managerial roller coaster ride. Today, we are talking about how to be a better manager. This has been a highly requested topic and I have spoken about before how strange I find it that we are expected to take to being a manager like a fish to water when it's nothing to do with what we are specializing in. Whether you're at a grad scheme, whether you are, I don't know, literally anywhere you're working, you are expected as you progress to also suddenly be good at managing people with often no experience and no training.

2:11And then even if there is training, it's like a morning of sitting in front of a computer and then being like, don't be inappropriate and don't tell them off meanly. And that's not really what it all is. So I wanted to do an episode on how to be a better manager. I absolutely do not think I am a perfect manager. I think this has been one of the biggest learning curves of my whole time as a business owner and manager, like from the first employee I had all the way up to now. I am still learning so much about how to manage people, about how to manage people according to what their motivations are and how they respond to criticism and all of that and it is really a steep learning curve and it's one of those ones where actually building a business now I recognize that actually you really have to be good at it in order to progress.

2:58Like it's very rare that wherever you are in a business you will be able to progress if they can't put people under you. so I think this is really important and I think it's part of professional development that people need to take into their own learning I think that it's not like one of those fun things you learn about like how to invest money how to save like any of those things where you really see the tangible difference but actually learning how to be a good manager is not second nature in my opinion so in this episode I'm going to be talking about the skills I've learned along the way and I do think if you are working in any sort of organization with other people you have to spend some time investing in being a better manager that includes inviting criticism that includes getting comfortable with criticism knowing which bits to take which bits to not take in order to get better at it and it's not easy and the feedback loop is tough because when you get it wrong you get it really wrong and I very much have before so let's get into it

4:02first of all as I've said I do not pretend to be an expert in management as a topic I haven't been to business school I haven't studied management what I do think is very important and what I have done a lot of self-education on is making sure I know and have read up on other people who are the experts in terms of effective leadership and management and some of the easier do's and don'ts and generally as a whole what I have then taken from that information to how I manage people today. So if you are currently a manager or would love to be a manager or just want to hear what I have learned about being a manager but let's get into it.

4:45As always we're going to go into the data first to get very clear on what the landscape looks like. First of all leadership skills are considered the most important soft skill with nearly half 47.85 % of all UK adults stating that this is the most important skill for a manager to have I think that kind of goes without saying but I actually think as a soft skill as a whole it is incredibly important it's so interesting because when we're told about CVs we're always like you're told to put in there like if you were in a netball team or whatever and then as you get more specialist you're like I'm obviously not going to put that but it's so interesting because I do think you really learn leadership through friends and through navigating people through all walks of life but we think of work and that as separate whereas you can actually learn a lot about how you speak to people whether you like them or don't like them and in a managerial position you obviously have to do that.

5:34The age group that is most likely to feel stressed by a manager are 25 to 34 year olds with 15 % saying that the main source of their stress is their boss. She looks around the room with concern. We have one nod. so there we go we have one person in the 15 i guess that is statistically correct for this room well there we go third fact adults over the age of 55 reported far less boss related stress than their younger co-workers with only five percent saying that their main cause of stress was their boss i think that's really interesting and i think what's most interesting to me is that having a manager is probably the first port of really getting criticism quite regularly and like it being part of your relationship with someone I know obviously in like personal relationships you get criticism but actually nowhere near as much as with a boss and I think that it's so important to as a good manager understand how to be giving that criticism or how to be giving constructive feedback or how to develop people I was really shit at developing people for a very long time because I'm not a very patient person and I just get frustrated and I wasn't very good at putting into words like and articulating how something should be better I now pride myself in that and being able to identify the problem but for ages I wasn't patient enough to actually be able to articulate this is the problem this is how I think we get there instead I would just be frustrated that they wouldn't do it how I did it so I think that is a really really important learning as a manager is being patient and also I think naturally once you've received criticism or feedback for a long time, you become very, very comfortable with it.

7:14I personally think that the earlier in your career you can become comfortable with getting feedback, the better you are going to be. We've just had a huge gain in size in our brand team and I was having a meeting with a lot of them like a few weeks ago and I just said to everyone, I was like, the way I work best is if I feel like I can give open feedback to you. I want you to feel like you can give open feedback to me as well but the way I work as a manager is very much collaboratively and I need you to get comfortable with receiving that feedback because then we can create great work together like we can only create great work together if we can be on a level with each other and understand that something not being the way it should isn't a personal attack what I've really realized over the past especially like two years where Tala for example has gone from like nine to 40 people the difference in people who progress faster and people who are able to evolve the thing I would say that ties them all together is being good at taking feedback and criticism and rolling with the punches and just moving forwards because if you think about it if you and the person managing you cannot do that and don't get me wrong there is a way for that to be done correctly and it is still important to be polite and it is still important to be constructive and have that open line of feedback and communication also in the way you like to receive feedback and I understand that's not easy to articulate or even know I've had so many friends they've just ended up leaving jobs purely because of their specific manager and the managing skill and I think that just goes to show how important it is to be a good manager and to know how to give feedback in a non-attacky way and then also that's a two-way street because that person needs to know how to receive feedback so when we're talking about like how do you give good feedback as a manager there are some pretty clear do's and don'ts that I've learned over time first of all as I've said when I start working with someone I make it very very very clear that I work best if there's that open line of communication and I believe that if we both are able to receive that then we will be able to go far further than if we have any blocks to that first of all if you're starting to work with someone as their manager make that clear I would also invite feedback the other way so I would say obviously it's there's a time and a place and it is a manager and direct report relationship so it is not going to always be a perfect two-way street it's not going to be like that it's not a relationship in that way a lot of it is about building trust and building trust is via having that open line and being able to respond in that way so I do think it completely depends how you work with someone but I do think saying that's going to be the way you're going to do it but also saying and I would also invite you to be able to give feedback too if there's something I'm saying can I have this presented this way and that it genuinely takes three more hours to do it like that I might not have an understanding of that because I'm not doing that role so I would always rather someone say just to let you know I can do it that way but it will take me three hours longer which is like nearly half a day a week and I would probably say oh that doesn't sound right okay is there a middle ground that would make that work so inviting feedback maybe making formalized places for that to happen so whether that's a six monthly review or whether that's a kind of monthly meeting you have whatever it might be of course it can't be the whole part of your job you need to be able to manage and that person is at the end of the day your direct report but I do think it is incredibly important to build trust by having that both ways and it takes away some of that like 25 to 34 year old stress in saying this kind of idea of a manager like you would think of like a teacher when you're younger in like what they say goes of course you probably need to do what your manager asks but I do think there's an element of trust of being able to recognize that you're both adults and you can and should therefore be able to communicate relatively openly between you, even if the manager then comes back after that and says, I appreciate your feedback, we're still going to do it that way because that's the way I need to be seen.

11:02And then you need to be able to move on from that without holding like the same type of like personal grudge or like feeling that you would with a friend. In terms of giving feedback itself, I have learned as well that it has to be absolutely concrete. whether this is to a freelancer where they're editing videos or whether it is to a you know someone in our team who's done a social rollout or whether it is a marketing plan whether it is a business case for like an extra channel to the business whatever it might be feedback has to be concrete and it has to be clear and you have to get comfortable as a manager with giving concrete clear feedback that might feel at times a little bit too severe or not severe things can always be said nicely sometimes you're going to receive work that is subpar and you're going to have to tell them the way I started to get comfortable with this is I would write my feedback down before I went into something and then I would share it with them and then we'd both be looking at the same thing so that I couldn't back down on some of these things because I found it so uncomfortable to be saying certain things like this is just not right and the quality of work is not there or whatever it might be and giving examples for every single point of feedback is incredibly important as well but I used to literally like back down in the meeting like I would have it written down and then I'd be like oh looks like that's it I've just given you two good points and just like ignored all the rest and I think you have to get comfortable with that so I used to push myself by writing it all down sharing it with them as we went into it or printing it out whatever it might be so we're looking at the same thing so you can't back down because you have to be able to give feedback as a manager and don't be too harsh on yourself it's going to take time but you do have to be able to do that and you cannot be a good manager without encouraging good work I would also say as part of that that good managers hire good people like over performers hire over performers and I think that it is incredibly important to recognize that if you as a manager are ever asked to hire the person who is going to be your direct report which is actually how it happens in the majority of not even startups like a lot of scale-ups before you get to having like an HR department it's such a backwards thought but it is so understandable to think oh I don't want to hire someone who's potentially going to like feel threatened by them just remember that a rising tide lifts all boats the better your team does as a whole the more space there is for it in the organization so I definitely think that would have been how I would have tackled it originally I would have been like I don't want to hire someone who I literally feel like they're really great and they're going to be better than me actually realistically you really do and having hired and scaled a business like very fast to me that's been one of the most important things to get into people's heads is let's get the best people we can when we get the best people we can there's always going to be space like there's always going to be space because we're going to be doing better and I think that it's definitely a warped understanding to try and do the opposite if that makes sense the better your team does overall the better you do overall and nurturing that even if it wasn't you who did that specific piece of work is a skill that will get you progression just before we go into the dilemmas just under a third of all UK adults believe that empathy is the most important soft skill for a manager to possess completely agree and I don't want to say this in a incredibly stereotypical way because I understand that women are not a homogenous group but this is why it completely baffles me that we have troubles putting women higher up in organizations.

14:32Some of the best managers I've ever had and best managers I've ever worked with completely agree. They are empathetic and they are able to understand and estimate and anticipate someone's emotional response to something and therefore they are able to know when to give feedback, what type of feedback to give. I have people I could go to and I could give them a list of five terrible things with their work and they will be absolutely fine. As in, you know, that's the way they work. They're really good at being able to take that. they actually prefer harsher feedback. I also have people where I know I need to give them five compliments on their work before I give them five things that I think they need to improve.

15:06Understanding people is so important as part of being a manager and it is not soft. That is leadership. You have to be understanding and empathetic and this is why women are naturally more empathetic. We see managers as these like horrible like boss kind of creatures that are just like there to ruin your life and actually the most empathetic managers who are the least harsh but most constructive generate some of the most high-performing work and I think that's a contradiction that we have in our heads. The market's uncertain, revenues tied and hiring on hold. That's why results-driven companies are using Upwork to keep work moving.

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17:02A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu. For women, the second most important soft skill for a manager to have is verbal communication with 37.84 % of women, giving this answer is one of the most important skills for a manager to have completely agree again you just have to get good at it it's just something that you're going to have to practice even if you're talking to a mirror I think we stop doing things at a certain point that like really scare us and push us because you can choose to be in your comfort zone and I actually think for a lot of people being a good manager requires things that would be out of their comfort zone and therefore you kind of just like shy away from it you have to get good at verbal communication and honest communication and upfront communication and don't get me wrong you can do that very politely but you absolutely have to be able to communicate otherwise how can someone carry out your wishes as your direct report so going into dilemmas the first dilemma is from Catherine hi Grace I work in marketing and have worked my way up from assistant to executive congratulations and then to manager in April of this year I am only 25 but I started managing an assistant in this new position and I feel a little out of my depth you've managed a team from a young age how do you stop feeling like you are not old enough to manage I have people in the teams of all different businesses who are all different ages and I can promise you age and being a good manager do not necessarily strongly correlate I have worked with so many different types of people and I think everyone's style is so individual but I I would really encourage you to stop seeing age as a problem when it comes to management I would say that actually one of the biggest strengths I had as a manager when I first started out was actually the fact that I knew that I wasn't necessarily a good manager or like a leader in the traditional sense of the word because I often wasn't more experienced than this person at their specific thing.

18:56You obviously are because you are you know two echelons kind of higher than this person but I would actually say that some of the younger leaders I've known are far more empathetic and far more able to be collaborative because they don't believe that they just need to have like this age-based hierarchy in order to be able to just tell someone what to do and I would actually say based on like my friends saying when they have terrible managers or they're really having a problem with their managers it's quite clearly an insecurity issue based on feeling like they just need to tell people what to do so that they are in the manager role so that they kind of feel like they're doing that and actually I feel like some of the best managers I've ever worked with are always the people who admit that they you know don't know certain things they admit that their team makes them stronger and therefore they don't need to go out of their way to prove themselves to their team I would use your being younger as a it's going to be a steep learning curve and spend some time looking into it spend some time reading books spend some time learning from people online like surround yourself with it we do that so much with you know the more shiny things as I say like finances but we don't really do that with things like how to be a better manager and I would say like as much of that as possible I would really recommend I would say keep an open line of feedback I would say encourage it I would even go as far as to say tell that assistant that this is your first time being a manager and be very specific with them and stay open as well with the people above you say this is my first time being a manager I believe I can do it and I'm really excited about this what would you see as success from me in this position as a manager is it my direct reports performing better is it me getting better results for the organization is it just like longevity of my direct reports in terms of how they stay there's so many different views of success as a manager and I would get really clear at what that looks like to your organization your manager and the organization as a whole and then I would just stay open and honest with people and when I dropped that like facade of like I need to act like I know everything I need to look like I am the manager because I am the best I was able to be a much better manager because I would be able to say this is how we're going to work just FYI this is my first time managing someone in this type of way so please do keep open with me if you feel like I can do better these are my principles all of this you don't need to pretend that you've managed someone for 10 years in order to be able to manage this person well if that makes sense the second dilemma is from Anita I'm looking to hire some grads to help with my small jewelry business but have never managed a team before what qualities do you think makes a good manager I would say empathy clarity verbal communication humility and being able to recognize that just because you're managing someone doesn't mean that you know everything and it doesn't mean that you should know everything and actually you should be able to have that open line of communication I would say those are probably the most important ones but obviously as a whole your thing as being a manager is not just like a person role it is a being able to nurture someone into improvement so I would say also spending extra time really looking at their work remember that as a manager your work no longer becomes just about doing your role it also becomes about nurturing their role to be better so I would be really conscious of that and just remember that your role is no longer just performing in the things you need to do so for example if you're a social media manager your role is no longer just managing social media your role becomes about nurturing someone who is your direct report so I'd spend some time on their work I'd gather extra feedback I would really concentrate on professionally developing them if you can get them to be as good as you then that's a win that's not a loss that would be my advice this dilemma is from May hi Grace I have been a social media manager for a while I know I can slightly be a control freak which up until now has helped me stay across all the schedules I've recently been given a direct report but I'm struggling to delegate tasks how do you do it I actually contrary to popular belief I love delegating the thing I struggle with in terms of delegating is I always want it to be done to a high standard and so I would happily delegate everything but it has to meet the standard if that makes sense and I know that sounds I mean it literally sounds insufferable but it is true if you have been someone who likes work done in a very specific way into a very specific standard to go out I mean on mine specifically it's related to like my name all the time then that is harder I do think it's like a slow and steady wins the race thing you don't need to be delegating all the things at once but I promise you when you get the hang of delegation it will be the best thing you ever did so I would get really clear I would probably go back to your original job description change it to what you think your true job description is and I would break down all of your tasks in different things so maybe it is the strategy part maybe it is the scheduling part maybe it is the feed planning part maybe it is the content creation part whatever it might be I would break it all down and look at what things is required in each of those parts and what things are the more menial I would say tasks that take up some of your time so with that in mind with your breakdown of all of your different responsibilities I would just get comfortable with a few different things so it might be finding inspiration that they could do more of it might be scheduling but you do need to get comfortable with it and you cannot and this is a trap I fall into often is when work isn't done the way I want it to be done I fall into a trap of decreasing my delegation and I'll do more because I'm just like oh well it's just quicker this way rather than developing someone properly so that is why that open line of communication is really important but yeah don't push yourself too far I would get really clear with them I'd spend some time with them if you're going to start delegating which you absolutely should I would spend some time with them I would tell them how you'd do it but I also would be clear that they're probably in that role for a reason and they're probably going to be able to do that pretty well especially if you hired them and you hired a good person but I would say as a whole they're probably going to be able to do that well and it's great to have an extra set of hands and an extra brain on a task so I would just get really comfortable with it I would be clear with which tasks you're more comfortable with at the beginning and I'd work cut trust from there as I said I would have a direct conversation with them and I would literally say I would say I've been doing this for the past while I have not managed anyone and I am a little bit of a control freak because I like things to be done really well I would get clear on what their motivations are are they a bit control freaky as well I would talk them through what their role is what your role is and what you're going to be working on delegating over time and how you're going to put things in place to make sure at each stage you're not going too fast and the delegated work is being done correctly.

25:18This is from Charlotte. Hello Grace, I've been a manager for a while and I'm getting a lot of pressure at the moment from senior management. They're insistent that I make changes which are going to affect my team and I know I am holding in a lot of stress. How do you make sure it doesn't feed down to the team at Tala and Shreddy? I think vulnerability and transparency is really important as a leader but at the same time I think it is incredibly important to ring fence so when there's a particular stress on the business or on myself that as a manager is your responsibility to take care of and not pass the entire stress on I do think as part of that you can say when you're having your catch-ups with your team or you're having catch-ups with your direct report whatever it might be I would say I'm a little bit below capacity at the moment because of this or currently I'm dealing with this these are the things that I think we as a team can do to get closer to where we want to be I'd let you know at the moment I'm particularly stressed and I would actually be open about that as I've said I think it's incredibly important for a manager to be able to be vulnerable but as I said you do need to protect you do need to ring fence you are where you are in the organization and you have been put there because there is a belief that you can deal with a certain level of this stress or pressure and that will get too much sometimes and that is fine and that will be horrible but you do need to be able to separate that from your team so that they can also get good work done in terms of the pressure you're receiving from senior management I'm not sure what that is about like what whether that is for improvement or whatever it might be I would spend some time looking at the specific feedback they've given and working out what stepping stones you and your team might need to take to get there and then I would literally have like a huddle with the team where you're essentially going these are the three things we need to improve on I've given three targets for each of them or three ways I think we can do each of them this one's your responsibility this one's your responsibility I do think that giving people responsibility and being very clear that you might be the manager but this person owns followers going up, this person owns the fact that everyone gets their delivery within the SLA and create responsibility with your team.

27:17I think people step up to that type of responsibility and I think bringing them in to the fact that that's the pressure and that's the improvement that's needed and staying close to them on it, it creates a team environment which I think is incredibly important. from Amber hey Grace I really want to move to become a better manager what are your top tips that I could take on that would prove to my boss that I'm ready to manage I would have an upfront conversation ask them for a time to speak and I would say hey loving my job at the moment what I'd really love to do is I'd love to become a manager both in terms of the title and also managing someone I'd love to know if there are things you think I specifically need to improve on to get to that point otherwise I'd really love to know what type of timeline we're looking at for that and I would just have a really open and honest conversation with them about that because I also think remember that your manager's job is not just managing you and I would just get very clear on that and open with that in order to make sure you are progressing in the right direction and they know that's the direction you want to progress in I think that's incredibly important as well that would be my biggest thing I would also in terms of top tips for things that would prove to your boss that you're ready I would get really clear on them on what they want to see from you because you might have specific weaknesses that they want to see an improvement on so I would write them down and get as honest feedback as possible as I said inviting honest feedback is a great way to improve and then I would work on improving them if they don't provide specific ones I would try and build a case for yourself in terms of like these are the things I think I've really improved on all of this this and this just to show that you're ready the business might not be ready to hire another person or to move someone to be managed by you so I would just be a little bit patient but I would communicate that that's something that you want and also communicate that you believe that there should be quite a quick trajectory in getting there or at least some understanding of the timeline.

28:55From Genevieve, hi Grace, I'm currently managing a team of five at my full-time job plus I've just taken on an assistant to help me with my crochet side hustle. How do you deal with managing people across numerous different businesses? How do you switch management modes? Please help, completely understand this. I have a different management style for each business because each business is set up in such a different way. My personal team right here is very different from managing the Tala team or the Shreddy team or whatever it might be so I do think that it is going to be different for example on the personal team it's always going to be a lot closer because it's a smaller team I reckon that's probably the case with your side hustle as well so I would just try and compartmentalize them a little bit you're obviously an experienced manager you manage a team of five that is no small feat you can probably take a lot of the things you've learned from there into managing for your side hustle though I would say if you're working with one person on something it's going to be a lot closer the relationship's going to benefit from being closer the way I operated and managed when we were like four people is very very different to the way I manage now so I would give yourself grace and space don't know why I'm writing a poem in terms of establishing what your management style is and how it's different don't be against being slightly closer to the assistant who's helping you with your side hustle because that's naturally going to be a more intimate role because it's just you two so I would take on the best parts of your learning in terms of how to communicate feedback, when you do reviews, how you do reporting, all of that type of stuff.

30:24Allow yourself to be a little bit different and probably a little bit closer in a smaller team, which feels more like a partnership. And that is the end of the dilemmas. I feel like I've just had an interview myself, but I hope you really, really enjoyed this episode. Whether you are someone who is working towards being a manager or whether you are like a steadfast corporate baddie, I really think that management is a skill that we rarely learn formally but is one of the most important things that you can learn throughout your career whether you're self-employed whether you're in a larger organization and as I said at the beginning I do think it is incredibly important for progression in your career there are very few roles where you can move upwards without managing more people so I would really spend some time investing in becoming a better manager if you did enjoy this episode, please make sure to like, subscribe, review.

31:13Well, something would be really nice. And if you're listening on Spotify, I've added some questions into the Q &A tab below this episode so we can all help each other learn more about being a better manager. So thank you so much for listening. And as always, have a wonderful day.

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32:17A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.