Ep.99 How To Land Your Dream Job & Get Promoted With HR Expert Amy Lentz

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1:30Amy Lentz is a work-life fairy godmother. She spent years becoming an expert in HR, working for big corporates and even the White House during the Obama administration. If you have any questions at all about how to nail a job interview, how to present properly, how to manage, how to get a promotion, how to give feedback, Amy has got the answer. And the brief for this episode was just every single work question that you have ever wanted answered. And I think we did a pretty good job of covering things. So as you know, I absolutely love doing a textbook, quote unquote, little bit of boring stuff episode, because I feel like that is actually the stuff that is going to get us to where we want to get to in our careers.

2:12We cannot talk about success without talking about things like how to ask for a pay rise, how to be a better manager, how to go to a different industry when you're currently in a job that's in a different industry to the one you want to get into. And so that is why I'm so passionate about doing episodes like this. Amy was absolutely incredible. We had a great conversation around the entire topic of work and careers and how to get exactly what you want out of yours. So I hope you do really enjoy this episode.

2:42thank you so much for joining me thanks for having me i'm so excited for this conversation as i was just telling you i don't think there's a single person on instagram or tiktok whose content i have saved more of which i couldn't believe but i believe you so thank you that's okay i'm not lying that would be weird to lie for no reason you can look you can listen back through all the other podcasts i don't say this to other people genuinely i think your content is such a breath of fresh air. I feel like it's very actionable in a social media world that is often just a little bit too conceptual or a little bit too kind of just leading by one person doing something.

3:17Like you really tackle great questions over and over and over. And especially if I were in like a corporate role, I would literally, if I could like pin your things to the top of my feed constantly, just so that I could watch them over and over, I would. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. What a note to start the conversation on. Well, thank you so much for joining me. I ask everyone one question at the beginning of the podcast. And I would like to know from you whether you feel like at the moment you are more working hard or hardly working. Working hard. Very much so. So I started Hack Your HR a little more than a year ago.

3:50And I did a full year of posting three times a day in addition to my full time job. And now I'm expanding. And it's definitely a working hard season. like my social life is out the window really this is my social life great so thank you well I'm loving it personally we should have got some wine yeah no I can totally imagine like I gradually grew on social media over time and even then like in the first few years I was like like what's going on like I remember working I when I was in a corporate job I would like every single weekend I would like batch create Saturday and Sunday for like hours and hours and hours like I'd cook like eight recipes in a row.

4:29So I can imagine you finishing your corporate job and then spending the whole weekend talking specifically about how other people can improve theirs. I can imagine that's quite draining. I joke with my husband about what he must experience listening to me on Zoom calls and then listening to me talk to myself and then saying, hey, look at me again. Listen to me again on my videos. So it's a lot. But I love it. It's a lot for both of you. Yeah, exactly. So for anyone who hasn't heard of your of what you do on social media, obviously, they'll get a great little intro from us. But I would really love to hear a kind of whistle stop tour of your career to date so that we can get a little bit of context on the point of view you bring to this conversation.

5:13Yeah. So I'm on social media as Hack Your HR and I share with people. I lead human resources at a global company and I am on here to help you get ahead in your corporate job. And I will back up though. So I studied at university, I studied human and organizational development, which essentially means the psychology of people in the workplace setting. And I did policy debate when I was at university. And so I quite literally would study outside of my schoolwork, global events. And so it was just eye opening to kind of learn about what's going on in the world and the problems that exist and continue to get worse and worse.

5:56And so I spent my first, the first part of my career in the nonprofit space focused on impact driven companies. I also had communications roles and marketing roles. I very much spent my 20s zigzagging as I like to call my resume. It's like a zigzag until I get to a formal HR job. But it was the desire to make a positive impact at scale that took me from the nonprofit world, tapping into government, always through the lens of, okay, how can we communicate better? How can we bring awareness to problems and then strategize and operationalize the solutions? And so I have a knack, I think, for this marketing side of me, but then I worked in strategy and ops roles, which brought me to an education nonprofit called Teach for America.

6:46I was there for four years. And I started advising companies about how to essentially establish and make better their operation systems, processes, et cetera. And a friend of mine reached out and said, hey, you work adjacent to HR and you essentially help companies make everything better. Why don't you apply for this head of HR role at Tom's Shoes, which gives a third of their profits to mental health resources all around the world. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I haven't held a formal HR job. But you're right. I think I really could step in with a strategy and ops brain with zigzag resume of working with HR, but not leading it directly.

7:28And so I am where I am today. I'm three years into my position as chief people officer. And I essentially got there through just asking questions and proposing solutions in small to medium to large companies. And it was during the pandemic that I downloaded TikTok and started scrolling. And I couldn't find anyone that was representing the back end of corporate and helping people understand, okay, here's how you can advocate for yourself. Here's the language to use. Here's what not to say. If you don't like your manager, don't do this. I just thought, what a white space. I have access. Why not share that with people?

8:08And so that's kind of what brought me to posting. But it for sure was not a traditional path into the position I have. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's amazing. And I think that there's so many important parts of that. I think one of the most important parts for me is the fact that you've zigzagged your way into a c-suite role which I think lots of people would assume that you couldn't do I'd love for you to speak a little bit about that and the kind of obviously you've intentionally built your career but I think what some of the great advice we've had on this podcast about not necessarily being so rigid with like what your next step exactly looks like to the point that you're detrimental to movement because you won't step sideways you'll only really take a big leap forward I'd love you to speak about your experience with that.

8:59Yeah, I think it's really important to acknowledge. So I'm the oldest girl of six kids. Wow. And my parents were highly invested in us. And I remember growing up, I was nine when my dad said, you can do whatever you want and I'll encourage and support you. So I have always had a very strong sense of self, strong self-esteem and a lot of personal agency. and what I have found is when I talk to people that feel stuck, they feel like they don't have that agency. And so several years ago, I thought, I want to be CEO someday. I'm sure that I'm going to start my own company. And that assuredness just stems from that high confidence, which stems from things that I didn't choose, like my family background, right?

9:47And so I think it was, gosh, five or six years ago, I thought, okay, if I'm going to be a CEO, I need to start living like one. And so I started studying how CEOs spent their mornings. And so I adopted a CEO morning routine, which I thought was kind of silly at the time. Like, okay, how am I going to get to that seat if I just start taking freezing cold showers every day? But sure enough, I started being who I wanted to become. And it was within a month of taking freezing cold showers that a mentor of mine inviting me to an event and then someone needed an advisor. And then I just decided to fake it until I could make it.

10:23I'd never advised before, but I essentially asked a lot of questions and presented solutions that seemed really practical to me. And so it really was stepping out in confidence, even when I didn't feel confident, only because I hadn't done it before, but I like to speak about truth and facts. The truth is I'm capable. I am smart. I'm creative and curious. And so let me take those transferable qualities about myself and apply them to the fact that I've never done fill in the blank before, but just trust in what's true about me to show up in the moment that needs me to show up in my best way. And so when I share advice with people that are nervous about leaving a job or really want to zigzag or get somewhere they've never been, I start with, well, what's your mindset?

11:14And that sounds so simple and cliche, but it really was the start for me seeing breakthrough in my career. It was that mindset shift of, okay, well, what's true about me? Let me just bring that into new experiences and let me find doors to knock on to create those new experiences for myself. Yeah, I love that. And when you were moving between roles, were you generally looking for that role originally? Because I find that a lot of my friends, when I'm thinking now about friends who I know want to progress in certain directions, and I think it seems to be the cycle of working somewhere for a few years, getting a bit bored, trying to find something else, working there for a few years, getting a bit bored, trying to find something else, and generally kind of stepping up as you go.

11:56You know, you probably wouldn't leave somewhere unless you were getting some sort of either title rise or pay rise or prestige rise in terms of the company itself. But I'm always intrigued to know whether we should be kind of intentionally looking all the time or whether those things just kind of came along or whether you were kind of always getting to a point where you were like, no, want something new now. I'd love to hear that from your perspective. Yeah, I sought out people much older than me. I've always done that since I was in high school. I always thought, OK, they've been places I haven't been and they are where I want to be.

12:35So most jobs that I've held, I have gotten an interview with through someone in my network. And I will say mentor very loosely, but very seriously. I got invited to the event where I was asked to be an advisor. I was invited to that event through a mentor. And so you mentioned boredom several times. Absolutely. I think people can get stagnant and bored in their jobs and feel like they don't have agency to leave or to advocate for themselves. But I think as I reflect back on my own journey, it really has been casting a vision and letting people know about that and not worrying about how they'll respond to it.

13:15So when I met a mentor of mine, I shared, I want to be a COO. I have an ops background. I want to be a COO. This lady that had never heard me before was on a shuttle to a wedding. And at the end of the night, she drunkenly said, I heard you talk about what you want out of your career and I can help you. Let me give you my number. So it obviously that's right place, right time, you know, strike of luck. But it took me to speak out in confidence. And I think that's what people can do when they're maybe bored in their jobs. They can just go out on a limb with a friend or with a mentor or a family member or someone in their network and say, hey, here's my dream job.

13:53This is where I want to go. Do you have anyone that you could connect me to? Which again, sounds so simple. Very rarely do people make asks because they're afraid. Yeah. And so getting past that fear requires feelings of discomfort or feelings of, well, what's that really going to do? Right. And not necessarily being too prescriptive about what that next step really looks like, but being able to just know that you want to get from A to B and therefore there might be a little bit of a roundabout way in between to end up getting there. Yeah. And I think if people feel stagnant and they're frustrated in their jobs, well, what job do you want to have?

14:29And is the job serving your career goals or are you only serving the company. I like to say, show up to your job 100%, but put in the bare minimum to reach that 100%, which for most people, myself included, is a full-time job work. I do all of my social content, 6 to 8 a.m., 6 to 8 p.m., and on the weekends, similar to what you described earlier. But I think if people think outside the box of, I am a passenger in this car that is life, and I can't take the wheel because I don't know how to get to where I'm going rather than you just hop in and you make turns until you get there. Hence the zigzag.

15:08Yeah, no, I love that. I want to come on to speak about job interviews because I feel like this is very much interlinked and how you get to like each next stage of your career. Obviously, the majority of the time there is some sort of job interview, especially if you're towards the beginning of your career. I mean, I generally say it throughout it. And I would like to know just from the very beginning, what do you think everyone should be prepping when they're going into a job interview? Okay, no matter who you are, no matter what position, and no matter with who, I talk about the 2-5-10 method.

15:41Two minutes right before you start your interview. Let's call it 15 minutes before your interview starts. If you're in the car about to go in in person or if you're on a Zoom, you do a power pose, which is hands on your hips, shoulders back, and you are confidently telling your physical body, I'm in charge, I'm in command. It's called a power pose. You can put your hands behind your head, elbows back, but you hold that for two minutes. Before you get in that pose, you write down 10 declarations. I declare that X will be true. I declare that they will think I'm competent. I declare that I'm gonna crush it.

16:17I declare that I will get this job. You put your head in a mindset of, this will go well, I declare. And then you affirm yourself. I am. And then you say the opposite of what you're insecure about. So if you're insecure that you really are an imposter and there's no way you could do this job, but you kind of know, you say, I am competent. I am fearless. I am resilient. I am fill in the blank. And then you take 10 deep breaths. Two, five, 10 is so simple. But when you do it, you enter into an interview emotionally regulated, which makes your energy less frenetic and frantic and stressed out and you're in a calm place, which, you know, I've heard numbers like 80, 90 percent of communication is nonverbal.

17:05I really feel like getting your head in a good, calm place where you're not desperate to crush it will help you actually crush it. I think that's very true. And I think that it is hard to like you're convincing someone that you could be in a specific role. and if your body language and everything about you is projecting that you maybe couldn't do that specific role. I think it's not everything and the more technical your role, the less likely that is to matter. But you can see why if there were two candidates and one of them, it felt really clear that they were confident and that they weren't doubting themselves and the other one clearly did, I can absolutely see why someone would go with that other candidate.

17:46So I feel like that's really valuable information. What questions do you think more often than not come up in a job interview and therefore we should like always have answers for when going into one? Yeah. So if you're in an interview, that most likely means that your resume qualified you to do the job. How you do the job is whether or not people are going to think about you as what people say is a culture fit. So whoever you're interviewing with knows the hiring manager, they know the colleagues, if it's someone in HR, if it's your would-be boss, they know what's needed. And so going in with questions in mind, I would say you're going to get asked why you want the job.

18:31That's typically one of the first questions. Why are you interested in the company? And then why are you interested in this opportunity. I highly recommend you become an FBI agent. If you're in the States, you become the ultimate researcher of wherever you're applying and you research the person. So ask questions related to the job. For example, if you're applying to work in paid marketing, you might ask what was the most successful campaign that you're proud of, right? If you are going into finance, you might ask some detailed question that shows that you put in more effort than thinking about it on the spot.

19:10So while I can't give, well, I could give, you know, generic questions, I would say the more specific to the person that you're interviewing, the better. And then I think it's great to ask questions. What does, I took this question from Carla Harris. She works with Morgan Stanley, which is one of the biggest investment firms in the world. She always likes to ask, what does a superstar look like on your team? I think that's a fantastic question if you're interviewing with your would-be boss. But I think it's also really important to just consider what did this person that's interviewing you go through before they got here?

19:49Are you a 5 p.m. interview? Are you an 8 a.m. interview? Maybe they have kids. Maybe drop off with, like kids drop off with stressful. If you're a one o 'clock, did they get a chance to eat lunch. So I think it's great to just come in kind of with the energy of I already have the job and we're just meeting. And so think about what you would ask on the first day of the job and then ask that in the interview. Yeah, I think that's a great piece of advice. And what about on the other side, questions that we can assume that the interviewer is going to ask us in terms of like steadfast, like pretty, pretty certain they're going to come across.

20:29I have like a small list of questions that anytime my friends are going for a job interview and I'm like talking about it with them, I'm like, prepare for these five questions that I always, always, always send. Do you have a version of those five questions? Oh, that's such a great question. As much as I hate the question, what are your weaknesses? People keep asking it. I like to take that and say, you know, I seek feedback. A recent piece of feedback that I got in my last performance review was X, and this is how I've made progress on it. So that I would be prepared for that question. Hopefully you don't get asked that.

21:09What are your goals? I would be prepared for that question. And I would make sure that you speak to exactly what you're interviewing for. So if I'm interviewing, for an HR job. I'm not going to say, well, multiple years ago, I wanted to be CEO because that has the opportunity to be misperceived. I would be prepared for that. You'd be surprised how many times I get roles that you're interviewing for. And it's like, oh, I definitely want to start my own business within the next like year or so. I'm like, cool. Wow. It's such a quite big investment for me to train you up here. Like as in like, I wish you didn't say that because that this a bit like i'm so proud of you i wish you didn't say that because obviously it would now be stupid for me to hire you for this role like as in i'm always so surprised at how like just like disconnected that is because i completely get it but that's a great that is exactly why you should connect your goals to make sure that you're not essentially interviewing yourself out of the job because you you're you're qualified via your resume to get the interview and people test the competence and warmth of a person.

22:16So you're already competent. So be prepared for answering essentially questions where you'll have to speak to what you've done in the past. So I would practice really just outlining, okay, so tell me about a time when. Figure out what those questions are related to your fields and then practice answering them. And then what motivates you? I really love asking people, what makes you tick? What motivates you? What gets you of bed every day. But let's say I'm interviewing someone to work in accounting. I'm not going to expect someone that works in accounting to say what motivates me is anything other than accounting, because then I would want to help them solve their life issue, which is that there's clearly dissonance in what they do and what they're passionate about or what they want out of life.

23:03So it all comes down to self-awareness in knowing where you want to go and how the job that you're interviewing for makes sense, not just for the company, but also demonstrate why you're excited for the job. Yeah, I think that's really, I think that's such a good point. And I think I'm always surprised at the amount of both applications and interviews that speak pure, I think this is mostly relevant on applications now, I think about it actually, that speak purely to the opportunity for the person rather than the value the person adds to the company. Like I'm always surprised how many people email who will it's essentially a cover letter and they'll spend some time talking about what they've done and then the whole rest of it will be in terms of what the opportunity would be for them which is very noble and which I'd love to you know for that to be enough and sometimes it is sometimes it would be a great person but I'm always so surprised at the amount of people who don't tie that back to what they specifically bring to the company which to me is like a real like a real key thing that you need in an application is there anything else that from the like application standpoint before you even get to interview that you would recommend making sure is on your application yes read every single word of the job posting something that i've seen is people will add in on you know three-fourths of the way down you know insert random word like elephant in your application and that will prove who has read the full job posting so they're a little tricks that I've heard of, I'm not a fan of that.

24:38But I will say I'm currently hiring for a couple of roles and I'm a little baffled at how if you're applying for a personal assistant position, which is what I'm hiring for, I say no DMs. The people that send me DMs instead of applying, I think you are automatically not who I want because I need someone that can follow instructions. I'm not being rude. That is simply so basic. And so I think I can say you have to nail the basics. And yet the simplest, most boring things that will make you stand out are so easy to overlook. So if the application requests something, do it. But then also, I think there is an etiquette to sending a thank you email and making sure that it's worth sending.

25:29So let's say you and I have an interview and we talk about your shoes and you say, oh, I found, you know, I had a great day shopping and I've been meaning to check out this other place. I would respond to our interview. I would send a follow-up email and then I might do a little research on what you mentioned and hyperlink a resource and Instagram story if it was a more casual interview or you know that that would land. Or, hey, you mentioned that you're going to dinner. If you have time, while you're here, make sure you check out this place. If there's any opportunity for you to add something personal to the follow-up email, that will make you stand out.

26:04No, I think that's a really, really good piece of advice. And I think that what is often overlooked, I think especially, obviously, it depends on the size of the company. Obviously, with some companies, HR will be hiring for the roles. At smaller companies, obviously, the people in the team will often be hiring for the roles. And if you are being interviewed by someone who would be in your team, obviously that's going to go a long way as well, based on the fact that, you know, Atala, for example, manages hire who they're going to be working with. And therefore, like, would they like to manage you?

26:33Like, is there something that you can put in there that would show that you specifically would kind of vibe with that person or whatever it might be that you can really get across and could very much give you the edge? I always think that's really valuable. When I got the job I have now, I had part on my resume that said books I'm reading, music that I'm listening to, what I'm currently obsessed with. And I specifically put that in there, one, to stand out. But two, you never know who is going to interview you and whether or not they're comfortable with small talk. And so when I recommend people do something like that, whether that's on their resume or in their cover letter, research who you're going to interview with potentially, and then make your conversation starters relevant to them.

27:20So if I know someone went to a certain, you know, lived in a certain area, I'm like, I'm from Chicago. So if someone asks me what my favorite Chicago, like deep dish Chicago style pizza is, I'm going to think, oh my gosh, they did their research. That is so impressive. So I think adding in conversation starters, I don't think it could hurt. I'll say it that way. Right. It's not, it's not going to get you the job on its own, but it's definitely you're not going to hurt. And you, I think often as well, within a market, you never know if there are two candidates that are being decided between and you never know what that one decision factor might be.

27:56I've had so many roles where I've deliberated between two people for so long. And a lot of the time, they're going to bring completely different things to the role. Maybe one person's more analytical, one person's more creative, whatever it might be. And there's always been a slight edge that like in my gut, I know what it is. It's often something like the attitude they brought to the interview and the fact that they were very open and questioning and kind of seemed like they could take feedback well and then took it and then adapted their answer or whatever it might be. It's never necessarily something that got them the whole job on its own.

28:32But I do think we forget how much little things like this can could be the clincher in you getting that job versus another candidate. Absolutely. Yeah. I really think that when you stand out, it's just you being you. And while it might personally affect you to not get a job, it might not be personal to you. Like what you just mentioned was essentially the vibe of someone. And if you're going to be complimentary and if there's going to be chemistry. And that's not talked a lot about. If you're deciding between two people, if you're going to work closely with someone, you need to have chemistry.

29:11How do you set yourself up in the best way possible to have chemistry with the most amount of people possible? If you're applying for jobs and you are so tired, it is exhausting. If you show up and you are exhausted and tired, that's not going to jumpstart chemistry in the best way possible. So I keep going back to mindset, But like you said, it might not be the thing that gets you the job, but it certainly might be the cherry on top that makes someone else's gut feeling choose you over someone else. Both competent applicants, but one person just has that factor. Yeah. Right? Yeah. No, I completely agree.

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30:35We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary. Great. I want to come on to talk about work skills that we should all have or all try and hone. I first want to talk about being a good manager. This is something that, as I've said on this podcast, we've talked about a lot. I think it's something that's not nearly talked about enough online. It's just not a very hot topic. Who wants to spend their time on social media talking about how to be a better manager? But the more and more people we've had on this podcast, the clearer and clearer it is that to get to a super successful point in your career, you're often going to have to be good at managing people.

31:16And that's something that has been so evident through entrepreneurs, through corporate, through whatever it might be. The great managers are the people who are able to go really far. I'd love to know from you what traits you would say that a good manager will always have. Easy. Emotional regulation. So I'll give you an example. Someone at some point in my career called me. They made a really big mistake. Really big. And I thought in that moment, And they must feel awful. They even said, if you want to fire me on the spot, I completely understand. In that moment, I knew that this was a defining moment in their career.

31:58They'd never made a mistake this big, super high performer. And I had the opportunity as a manager to further the trauma even more by getting super angry and not being emotionally regulated. Or I could meet the moment in my emotionally regulated state by saying, it's OK. Everyone makes mistakes. I don't want to dehumanize you. Let's figure this out. My heart isn't racing right now. I haven't lost any respect for you. Let's figure it out. And then we can figure out how we move forward. The ability for me to stay regulated meant that this person who had just unfortunately made this awful mistake.

32:43It was the difference between them feeling psychologically safe, which is the number one factor that high performing teams exhibit. Research has been done about it. But it was up to me to let my emotions react to the moment or let my brain respond. And the only way that's possible is if you train your nervous system to physiologically be in tune and in aligned with, okay, nothing is the end of the world, truly nothing. It can feel that way for your world or someone else's or a whole company. But I really think that the number one skill that people can grow as managers, but in general, is learning how to regulate themselves.

33:23And how do you foster that emotional regulation when maybe it is a really stressful situation and someone has made a huge mistake and it's had a huge knock on on you for you how do we as people foster that emotional regulation when you know it's it's really hard yeah it's very hard i personally take freezing cold showers every morning because it's like it's about training your brain and your body to be aligned because most of the time when people lose it they don't feel in control. So if you start auditing your feelings outside of high pressure situations, you will just start to create a habit of checking in with yourself so that when shit does hit the fan, you check in with yourself and go, okay, my heart's racing.

34:12My palms are sweating. I'm feeling nervous. I'm feeling really upset. What am I going to say? And it's just training yourself to take a moment and take that pause. Again, it's simple, but it's really hard to master. Yeah. And I think that's one of those things where you probably know if you're more likely to react badly. Like you probably know if you're the type of person who, because you'll do it in other walks of life, probably not so much work, but you'll lose your shit at your friends a bit more or your partner or whatever it might be. And you'll probably know if you're a little bit more level headed and I also feel like there's no harm or shame in sometimes just needing to take a minute especially when so much is remote at the moment like you don't want to just send back some arsy whatsapp like you definitely don't want to do that or some teams or like whatever it might be like there is no shame in going outside and screaming yes and coming back in and responding no truly and i think that like so much of the things that those types of things where you don't actually need to be emotionally regulated in the moment you need to be emotionally regulated when you respond and so obviously you can't just leave it for half day and give that person the silent treatment but you can no one's gonna wonder what you're doing if you just go and take five minutes and you take a deep breath and i feel like one of the biggest things i've learned as well especially like as someone who's worked in very high stress startup situations where also a lot of people are because in startups you especially at the beginning you hire lots of people who also haven't done it before and you're all just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks and I think that you know a lot of that makes a recipe for like a very high stress a lot of mistakes all of these different things and actually just being able to understand that things aren't fixed by reacting poorly like nothing is fixed by reacting poorly actually and being able to take a bit of a step back and be like it's really no point crying over spilt milk and that doesn't mean you can't give feedback and make it really clear that something can't happen again or shouldn't have happened in the first place especially if that person hasn't acknowledged it themselves but at the same time like as you say like feeling psychologically secure in a workplace is going to go a long way.

36:39We all have those friends who feel constantly on edge about what's going to happen next. And that's just not nice for anyone. Truly. And you mentioned startups. I think one of the quickest ways to get ahead in your career is to join a smaller company. I worked for a company. It was less than 10 people, 10 max. And in six months, my efforts tripled revenue. I could never, ever, ever sit here today without that experience because that experience qualified me to get the next experience and the next one. And then I built confidence to do that. But in that work environment, there was hardly any emotional regulation.

37:15And so I also stood out in terms of personality because I was calm and cool and collected, not inside of my head all the time, but outwardly, hey, I'm going to go get a glass of water. That's my favorite, right? I'm going to go take a walk. I'm going to go scream outside. My favorite excuse. Yeah, because I truly might need a glass of water or it could just be I need a pattern interrupt. I need to I need to break away. And that's a very neutral thing. I'm going to go to the bathroom. Yeah. But are you crying in the bathroom? People get in their head. Right. Maybe. But a lot of people think, well, what am how am I going to be perceived?

37:52There's nothing to dig deeper into than getting a glass of water or I need to check my phone. No, I do it. I mean, I literally do it the whole time at work. If there's anything that has like fully sent me over the edge, I literally just take myself to a meeting room, sit there, stare at the wall for a bit, come back in the room, and I am ready to react appropriately. And I do feel like I think that what you've just said about working at smaller companies is so valuable. And I think that if you're in a startup, you suddenly get the privilege of this really fast feedback loop, which is incredibly intense and sometimes really hard to deal with.

38:26And it definitely takes a certain type of person but you are getting that learning so much quicker than you will get it anywhere else in your career I honestly think it's I mean you know it will be different for everyone in terms of what they prefer but to me that's such a I can totally see why it would be hugely beneficial to work at a company a smaller company for a good few years before you're trying to make a big corporate break yeah people talk about build how do I build confidence I think one of the best or quickest ways to build career confidence is through working at a small company where you can see your effort, like a one-to-one.

39:04I input a week's worth of work and I can see all of the progress that I've made, as opposed to when I've worked at larger companies, I really, truly have been just a number, or I really, truly have felt like, does anyone know what I'm doing? I'm leading myself, but what if I didn't? I could just get away with not doing anything. That's for me and for my goals, that was highly demotivating to feel underutilized, underappreciated, under, under, under. The benefit was I could decide where I put my efforts. But I think a really quick and impactful strategy is choosing the smaller company. And like you said, startups can be very chaotic and there can be a lot of dysfunction.

39:44And you have to hopefully constantly course correct. But you also are in the driver's seat next to 15 other people in that same driver's seat. And I personally have found working in smaller companies very fulfilling for that reason. Yeah. I mean, there's definitely pros and cons. It kind of, you know, like as with any job, I love what you said there in terms of the difference between the two, but also the honesty around how sometimes in a corporate role you get huge benefits, But also it is a little demotivating to sometimes think, do you know what, maybe I could just not work for a week and no one would see it or it would show up on a KPI in about a month.

40:22But like until then, you know, people are just seeing me online. How do you in that type of environment, how do you start to stand out? Because I know a lot of my friends in particular have really struggled or become quite apathetic with their roles based on the fact that they do kind of feel like just a number and they feel like they could get away with doing pretty much nothing. People just assume the productivity of the team's gone down or whatever it might be. And that's quite, it's quite a relaxing place to be in your career to some extent, but it's also not necessarily going to get you to the next level.

40:57What advice would you get for that type of situation? It is so beneficial to represent your work to your manager as much as you can. Practice representing the impact that you make. And I like to think in terms of, well, instead of what goals we have, I like what impact you've made. Because a lot of times the goals change. If we set a budget, we might have to re-forecast the budget. Does that mean that all of your efforts have gone to waste because you haven't met this budget that's no longer relevant? No, what impact have you made? I think communicating up to your manager what goals you have is really helpful.

41:36And for those listening, if you haven't done that, it can feel really awkward to just out of the blue, go to your manager and say, Hi, I'm a new person. Now I've listened to Grace's podcast, and I got this, you know, advice. And so that's so awkward. But I like to blame any any change on natural moments in time. Hey, I recently listened to a podcast about setting up goals and I just wanted to share my goals with you and get feedback. You know, this is my job description. This is the impact that I've made so far this year. And this is where I'm hoping to go for the rest of the year. Starting a conversation with your manager in terms of this is where we started, this is where we are, and this is where I want to go is a natural invitation to represent the value that you bring to the company, which keeps you top of mind for your manager in not thinking, oh, I wonder what they're doing or how is it going on that project?

42:30Or you never want your boss to have a question mark associated with you. So I would say getting ahead of clarifying what you want, but making sure that you lead with the value that you bring to the company. That is the best way. Yeah. No, I think that is truly valuable. And I think that being able to not just advocate for yourself, but just be very clear. I feel like a lot of the time we forget that our managers also have their own role to do. And a lot of the time, it might not be that they don't think you're doing a good job. It might just be that they don't see all of your work. And therefore, if you can make that presented to them, or you can make that simpler for them to see, it feels like, you know, you can definitely just make their job easier of knowing that you're a good employee.

43:14And I feel like that's often overlooked. What environment would you recommend someone brings up that type of thing in like their goals? Would you recommend they, you know, after they've listened to something and decided that's the type of employee they're going to be, would you recommend that they call a meeting with their boss? Would you recommend they slack it over to them? Ideally, in a one-on-one setting, hopefully it's recurring, even if that's once a month, I would say, hey, I want to introduce something that's brand new. A more casual way of putting it would be, I have something new to bring up that I haven't brought up before, and I just wanted your feedback on it.

43:53Or I want your advice. If you feel uncomfortable asking for feedback, asking for advice puts your manager in a position where they can kind of sit up a little straighter and go, yeah, I can give advice because you're hierarchically under me. And then just saying, you know, I've outlined X, Y, Z, and then have very specific questions. I'm a manager. I want to get to a senior manager. This is everything that I'm doing, but this is what I want to take on. Do you have advice for whether or not I'm on the right track? Because then, even though your boss isn't saying, yeah, I'll promote you to senior manager.

44:26If you do these things, you can get the real-time feedback from them, but you're bringing it up in a way where you're communicating, this is what I'm doing. This is what I plan to do. Are you aligned with that? And that's a natural way for you to just demonstrate, hey, look at all the stuff I'm doing and let me remind you of the value that I'm bringing. Yeah. And what if you have a manager that you perceive to be not a great manager or someone who, as you say, doesn't have a lot of emotional regulation or you feel like it's just a little bit all over the place or is really nasty? Do you just have to accept the fact that that manager is terrible and will be your manager unless you leave or they leave?

45:06Or is there something else that you can do to approach the situation? I don't know how popular this will be, but managers get to give you feedback. You can give your manager feedback. And here's what I mean. Let's say your manager doesn't respond to your emails. I think that it is perfectly reasonable for you to, on a phone call or in a meeting, say, hey, I've noticed that I'm not getting responses from you on email. Would it be better if I just set a 10-minute call and got questions from you that way or a voice memo. However you think they might respond to you, great. To answer your question, though, I think that some people just don't like managing people and nothing that someone can do is going to change that.

45:51When people talk about managing up, what that essentially means is you just need to advocate for what you need. So if it's an approval on something or a point of view on something, if it's you really wanting feedback on your career trajectory, or if they just are honestly just miserable to be around, you're not going to change who they are. And that's where I encourage people, you have agency, you can leave your job. Is it annoying? Is it hard? Is it highly inconvenient? Are you going to lose fill in the blank what you love about your job? Maybe. But what's more important? So I think it's figuring out, you know, I've talked before about, do you have all of your questions answered before you leave the job.

46:33If your boss sucks, you can manage up to them and advocate for what you need. And if you're not getting that, then it's up to you to figure out, okay, are the pros that I have in this job better than the negative of just not liking who I have to interact with all the time? So I think it's figuring out what's really important to you. But I do think that it takes an open mind to change. And if your manager does not have an open mind, don't waste your time. And if you're in the type of company that you feel like is just a broken system, what is motivating you to change a system that can't be fixed by your efforts?

47:16I think a lot of us get caught up in the dopamine hit of, I'm going to show them, or I'm going to prove myself, or if only they knew how much I gave. We get caught up in that. It's almost ego driven with I like it's just a centered anger on things that it shouldn't be this way. Things should be different. That's a lot of wasted energy. But if you don't know your bigger goals beyond that job, you're going to spend time wasted on things that are going to essentially drain you. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think what you said that as part of giving managers feedback was really great as well.

47:57not just in the fact that you can give managers feedback but also in the way you said it I think I'm such a big believer in what you say is never as important as how you say it and I think what you said there when you were talking about how to feedback to a manager that maybe you're frustrated that they don't respond to you or that they ask you for something and then never respond to that so you don't even know if it was right or you don't know if you'd like hit the mark on it or whatever it might be I do think that there's an element like of course you could go in and you could just be like hi could you respond to this but alternatively what you suggested was going in and presenting your problem but presenting a multitude of solutions to that problem and I feel like one of the best pieces of advice I've ever been given is the fact that managers just do not need more problems.

48:53And if you're the type of person who's constantly bringing your manager problems, you're not going to be making their life easier. What you need to be bringing your manager is if you're bringing them problems, you also need to be bringing them solutions. They don't need to be like the full extent of every single solution. Like, of course, you're not going to be able to fix all of their issues. But actually having some sort of presentation of kind of like, I'm currently having a slight issue with this, or there is a slight issue this or whatever it might be here are three things that I think could fix it do you have a preference I feel like is such a different way to say things to by the way this isn't working or I don't like this or we have a problem with this and I think to me that is the significant difference between someone who will who I know is constantly able to like step up to the challenge and who can also take on more and more responsibility because they're showing that in their every day hey, they're just taking on more responsibility based on the fact that they've seen a problem.

49:50They formulated some solutions and brought that forward rather than just the problem itself. And we're all doing this for the first time. All of us are doing everything for the first time. And I think we think about our manager as perhaps a be all end all. Well, they don't feel the way I feel in my job. What makes people stand out is exactly what you outlined. Here's the problem. here's here multiple options do you have any feedback am I good to go and if you don't know what those options are talk out loud what what you think is possible and if you really don't know ask but as far as I'm concerned if you have a manager title or above you're managing something you're either managing people or you're managing a function and so it's up to you it's your job to figure it out and if you can't then you say here's what I've observed this is what I think what do you think?

50:41I'd love to know what you think the best way to ask for a pay rise or a raise is. I think you need to have good reason. Ideally, your manager gives you a pay raise. Does that happen all the time? No. When you advocate for yourself, you need to have stats. Let me pull back. The government knows us by our ID, right? Your employer knows you by your job description. Your compensation, if you're in a big company especially, will look at your job description and determine your compensation. If you do not have a job description, you do not have an ID. And think about it like this. So if I get married and change my name, my ID might not match my reality.

51:26If you have a job description that's three years old and you're doing a totally different job, oh my gosh, you are not represented according to the formal process accurately. So I would recommend, one, making sure that you have a job description, and two, if you're going to ask for a pay raise, make sure that you go to your manager and say, hey, my job description hasn't been updated in X amount of time. I am curious, or I'd love to know, what would it look like if you ask an open-ended question? I'd love to know what it would look like to audit my job description or rather I've updated my job description and I'd love for you to take a look at it and give me feedback because what I'm doing in my day to day and the impact that I'm making and the value I'm providing or the revenue that I'm generating or the money that I'm saving, etc, etc, etc.

52:22I don't think is reflected the way that HR sees me or the way that compensation sees me. Essentially, you armor yourself with this is the value that I provide and I don't feel like it matches what I'm getting paid. Without that, it's a hard case. Hey, I'm doing my job well. I've been in my job for two years. Okay. And I wish this wasn't the case. A lot of the time, there isn't a business need to give a pay raise to someone. So a lot of the time, and I'm not even talking about my job, but in a lot of conversations with friends, hey, I have someone and they want a raise. They've been in their job for a year.

53:02And they asked me at the year mark because, you know, these Gen Zers think that they get promoted after a year. Or, you know, I have someone that's asking for a raise. They've been in their job for seven years. They're a total expert. We don't have the business need for a VP level. Actually, we only need a manager level. And this person just happened to climb the ladder, but I can't keep justifying it. Or I can't give a raise. I need to reduce costs. So when you advocate for yourself, you really need to understand as much as you can what your boss is facing or what HR is facing. If you're in a company that's not profitable and you ask for a raise, that's going to come off as tone deaf.

53:44And if you're in a company that's doing amazing, the company might look at your role and really see a ceiling and that's not personal to you. It personally impacts you, but that shouldn't feel like a dagger to the heart in who you are and your identity. It might just be that what you bring isn't going to be valued. And so is, again, going back to like personal agency, you can choose to leave or do everything in your power to advocate for yourself and then know, okay I did everything that I can I've demonstrated my value I've asked clearly and then make a decision if you don't get an answer yeah what would you recommend to someone who's in that situation they really love their job they have asked for a pay rise and there's kind of consistent no coming back whether it is there isn't a business need or whether it is that they just don't believe if it's appropriate for whatever reason, what would you recommend to someone in that situation?

54:48I think it's figuring out what questions you have for yourself on what you value. So if you love the people that you work with, if you love the work that you're doing, if you love the flexibility that it provides, if you love your paid time off bank of a ton of hours that you can take vacations with and you feel underpaid, think about getting paid more elsewhere and map it out to what that would what how much extra money that would be month to month or week to week and figure out if it's worth leaving a job where you love all of these things versus leaving and potentially not getting all of the pros i think if you get to that dead end where you have advocated for yourself you have heard the nose the blind spot that you can check is, is my manager not advocating for me effectively?

55:37Am I in a broken system that I'm never going to get out of? Maybe you don't have a job description and it would be so awkward and there's no way that you could ask for it and you've still advocated and gotten a no. You could be open to getting a job elsewhere and meeting new people that you enjoy and doing the same or similar work that you enjoy. I hate coming back to personal agency, but there are more instances than not that I've heard of from people asking me for advice where my advice is not telling you what to do, but it sounds like you're so unhappy because you feel so underappreciated and undervalued.

56:16Even if you moved jobs where you make the same, not even more, and that's your priority, your mental health, your day-to-day is going to be so much better because you feel all of those other things. But I do know that pay is absolutely the most important thing. And what I've done in those situations is I have left companies when I have felt like the impact that I'm making is greater than what I'm getting paid. Yeah, I think that's good advice. I want to come into a few questions that have been asked by our listeners. I put a little question sticker up because I wanted to just I wanted to know what people were thinking about their jobs and what they wanted to ask you.

56:54And we had some great questions come in. So to start off, a really interesting one, I think. I wasn't actually expecting this one. But how do you know you are in the right job? well i'll speak personally i feel like i am in the right job because i'm energized by it i don't feel depressed my heart doesn't race when my boss calls me my colleagues are respectful i think it comes down to what you value so you need to have awareness on what you value and then making sure that that aligns with the company a lot of the time when people say they're burnt out it's not the number of hours they're putting in.

57:31It's a value misalignment. So I think figuring, writing down, I value. For me personally, I value autonomy and flexibility and accountability. I value kindness and feeling respected and working for people that I respect. I value feeling fairly compensated. I value you just write down everything separate from your job and then you compare it. If there's so much misalignment, I don't think you're in the right job. But I also think it goes back to where do you want to go? Do you want to just be in a job that you don't hate so that you can pay your bills and then have a ton of energy because you're not pouring all of your energy into a job so you have a ton of energy for outside of your job?

58:14For some people, pay really isn't their top priority. And so I think a lot of people might think, well, of course I want to make more money. But do you really want to make more money if you have to give up all of the all of the things that you like about your job so i think it's self-awareness in your goals and your values yeah i think that's such a good point i think because we probably are all deeply ingrained with this assumption that we all want to be in the highest paying most successful job possible and i just don't think that's true i think it's so specific to the person obviously there'll be this kind of bell curve of comfortability and being able to provide for yourself and your family especially with like cost of living at the moment and all of these different things but I do feel like it's definitely not true to say and I think lots of people are on this trajectory towards the highest paying highest title job they could possibly get and absolutely there's benefit in that and absolutely that will be the right thing for lots of people but also it will not necessarily be the right thing for lots of people.

59:17And just because you're seeing all of these different people get that job or people posting on LinkedIn or people posting on TikTok or whatever it might be, that doesn't mean that you don't value how much holiday you get or the fact that you can switch off at five or the fact that you don't think about your job overnight or whatever it might be or the flexibility or whatever it might be. And I think it's interesting that we have this kind of ingrained and predetermined trajectory that I just don't think is a true goal for everybody. I mean, I can speak for myself. I know for a fact I could go make a lot more money at other places because people have tried to recruit me and the opportunities that I've been presented have not aligned with the values that I have in this season of life, maybe in another season.

1:00:03But I agree. I think that we are conditioned to seek the external validation, which is typically my paycheck and my title. But it is such a flex to have flexibility. It is such a flex to like who you work with and be able to log off and not think about work. And is that always going to be paramount for you? No, but I think you're right. I think there's something to that. And how do you operate an industry change? If you're in a role, you want to get to another industry. How would you go about making that happen? I certainly have done that. I so being in strategy and ops roles with a little, you know, a little sprinkling of marketing and communications into a formal you are leading the HR function.

1:00:52When I interviewed for the job I have now, I spoke to how bringing that strategy and ops skill set would highly benefit a traditionally super, this is the way that it is industry, but it's looking at your skills and your, honestly, just how you show up in the world, your personality, what brings you to life as transferable skills, and then using that language in interviews. Also, I would orient your resume. I would tweak it to each industry that you're applying to and not include every single thing on your resume just because you're proud of it. It's really hard to take things off that we're proud of.

1:01:33But I would say accentuate the most relevant transferable skills that qualify you to get the job done. Going back to that impact language, what skills do you have that can essentially qualify you to make the biggest impact in the role that you're applying to? And the easiest way to get those types of interviews is through a referral. What about how to rebuild your confidence after an unexpected job loss? That's so hard. What is true versus the fact that you got fired? I really think that self-talk is important and surrounding yourself with people that aren't going to ruminate with you. So that's a lot of self-control.

1:02:15The first thing that we like to do is go to our friends and complain, and then go to our family and complain, and go to our partner and complain. The least amount that you can ruminate, the better, because that leads to depression. I think about if you're feeling depressed, you're thinking about the past. If you're feeling anxious, you're thinking about the future too much. You're over-indexing on one. And there is nothing worse than losing your job. It can feel embarrassing or humiliating, or you can feel silly, or there are things that are worse than that. But in that moment, it really does feel like, okay, my world came down.

1:02:50What am I going to do? How much time am I going to give myself to feel my feelings before I take action. If I'm thinking about my family, if they heard that, they would think, oh, that is such an Amy thing to say because I'm so action oriented. But the quickest that you can take action, even if it's moving your body, the better. Instead of sitting on the couch sad, take a walk and be sad. Instead of calling a friend, literally record voice memos to yourself and then it's released and move on. And I don't say move on and take action to minimize the impact of losing your job. But I do think it's really important to create a time bound amount of time for you to feel the impact that it has and then treat looking for a new job like a job.

1:03:40Clock into job searching and clock out and don't make that your full identity during that season. I think one of the best ways that we can grow as people is by our growing our grittiness or our resilience. And if you think about it like, okay, if I'm going to be speaking on stage in 10 years, I'm going to look back at this season and you're the main character in this memory that you're going to talk about someday. How did I show up? How did I show up? Did I, was I, did I give into my feelings? That goes back to emotional regulation. Did I give into all of my feelings? Or did I say, no, you have this amount of time to feel everything.

1:04:19And then when it comes up again, you give yourself that time, but you don't stay in it. Yeah, I think that's great advice. And I think that it's so true to say that losing a job or getting made redundant or whatever it might be is just like one of the real, real struggles in life. And that it's not, you know, I feel like most people who've been through that would just not wish it on anyone. I do think that allowing yourself to go back to it, like to feel it and then to go back to what you need to go back to with momentum so that you can move forward is a part of self-care in itself. Like it's not self-care isn't just making sure that you can run to your friends and like looking after yourself that way.

1:05:01It's also making sure you're moving forwards and you're providing for your future and you're making sure that you're walking in the right direction. Yeah, I agree. And before we end, I would love to know from you what the best piece of advice you've ever been given is. I received a lot of advice. In my job now, someone gave me the advice when I was really frustrated. This was quite a while ago that what I wanted to do just wasn't possible. And they said to me, Amy, sometimes your job is just to clean up. if if there's a decision that's made that's out of your control sometimes all you can do is come in and be that reactor i think also what i take away from that piece of advice is you are not a representation of things that are out of your control i think a lot of the time we place our identity in things that are out of our control and so then when we lose our job we crumble and And so sometimes a response in life is you just have to clean up what decision was made for you.

1:06:06And so essentially that's operating in your power. Adjacent to that advice is you don't owe anyone anything. And I don't think that's true for friendships or relationships. But when I first moved to Los Angeles, my brother that had been there or been here for a couple years, I went to him and said so many people want to hang out. There are so many requests. There are so many events. It's such a fun social city. but there are these people that I don't want to see. And he said, you don't owe anyone anything just because someone, and it's so simple. I was so young. Just because someone requests your time doesn't mean you owe it to them.

1:06:39Just because someone fill in the blank doesn't mean. And so I think at the heart of both of those pieces of advice, it's prioritize what you need over what people want. So what that looks like is, if you know that you need to show up for yourself or others in a certain way, and someone asks for your time or attention or energy, and it competes with what you need, ask yourself do I want to show up giving someone what they need in sacrifice of what I need because it really is a want of theirs versus a need of yours I think that shows up in so many different ways but at the crux of it prioritize what you need over what people want I think that's very good advice thank you so much for joining me I really appreciate your wisdom and I feel like this will help a lot of people in their careers and where they want to get to this was so lovely thank you for having me Thank you.

1:08:09Thank you.

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