How to speak clearly and get rid of filler words for good with Susie Ashfield

0:00Susie Ashfield: Missed calls, slow replies, messages scattered everywhere. If you're running a business, that's not just annoying, it's revenue slipping away. That's where Quo comes in, spelled Q-U-O. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2. One shared business number for calls and texts. Stop missing customers. Start capturing every opportunity. Try Quo free and get 20 % off your first six months at quo.com slash tech. That's q-u-o dot com slash tech. Quo. No missed calls. No missed customers. That new thing? Yeah, we've got it. The Drop by GNC. Bringing you all the newness that matters. Handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work.

0:46Susie Ashfield: We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day. The Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first. non-stop innovation and fresh finds daily. Explore what's new and what's next on The Drop by GNC. Guys, it's no use putting it off. The best time for an underwear refresh is now. Tommy John Underwear is designed for a perfect fit that stays put all day. There's zero chafe thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands. And their innovative horizontal quick draw fly is a game changer.

1:22Susie Ashfield: With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you. Don't settle for less. Go to TommyJohn.com today for 25 % off your first order with code COMFORT. That's TommyJohn.com slash COMFORT. TommyJohn. Comfort perfected.

1:51Grace Beverley: What is up? I'm Grace Beverly and welcome back to Working Hard, the podcast shared guidebook on how to improve your own life and achieve what you actually dreamed of doing because life's too short for boring podcasts and bad advice.

2:05Grace Beverley: What is up and welcome back to Working Hard. If you want people to take you more seriously without changing who you are and you are fed up of saying like every five seconds, this episode is for you. Today we are breaking down how to become a stronger communicator in everyday life and at work. This was such a highly requested episode and one that I've been wanting to do for so long. I've been working on this specifically myself for a while. So when I found speaking coach Susie Ashfield I knew she was the perfect person to talk about this with. We are talking about how to cut filler words, how to speak clearly without losing your personality, why women are taught to soften their language, and what we can do about all of those things.

2:37Grace Beverley: I feel like throughout my career, I very much learned that communication is absolutely everything for your job, for your relationships, and generally for getting further in life. So I really hope you find this episode as life-changing as I did. Before we get into it, please make sure you are following the podcast on whatever platform you are listening to this on. That means that a new episode will land in your feed every single Monday morning and it hugely helps the podcast.

3:08Grace Beverley: Susie Ashfield, are you currently more working hard or hardly working?

3:11Susie Ashfield: I am hardly working.

3:12Grace Beverley: Oh, really? I'm having so much fun.

3:15Susie Ashfield: Love that for you. I mean, I'm being paid to have the fun, which is fantastic, but it's too much fun to call it work. But suddenly that's a very good position to be in.

3:22Grace Beverley: And for anyone who doesn't know what you do, can you explain that for us?

3:28Susie Ashfield: I am a communications coach, so I help people work out what it is they want to say and make them look really confident when they say it.

3:35Grace Beverley: I feel like a lot of people assume that their communication style is quite fixed. It's something we do every day. It's something that I think a lot of us feel like is probably a bit ingrained and there's a bit of nature, there's a bit of nurture, there's a bit of kind of bad habits, all of that. But how easy is it to actually make a significant change in your communication style when you're like, I don't know, you're an adult. You've kind of already established how you communicate.

4:01Susie Ashfield: They're right and they're wrong. Absolutely. If you've been doing something day in, day out in one particular way, that feels totally like its nature to you. But of course, you can change stuff all the time. Tiny little changes made frequently are the best way to do this. And I can tell you exactly what those changes should be.

4:19Grace Beverley: So let's talk about it. Let's talk about the changes. If someone's listening to this episode and the reason they've clicked on it is because they think, oh, well, I'm just not the best communicator. Maybe I speak well sometimes, but I say um and ah and like and tend to fill silences and all of these different things, which doesn't necessarily get my point across. Where would you recommend they start?

4:38Susie Ashfield: Everyone is worried about communication, particularly public speaking. I think they survey this stuff all the time. And number one phoga in the world is always public speaking. Really? Number two figure in the world is death, which is great. So if you feel like... My two biggest fears, what will happen today? Will I be made to stand on a podium or will I die? It means if you stand up and do next week's presentation, you think I'd rather die than be here. Statistically, you are correct. So no one really loves this. That's the first thing to note. But you can change it and you can get better at it.

5:12Susie Ashfield: I think the first thing to say when it comes to little filler words, so ums and errs and you know, like, if I told you don't think about a red balloon, what are you going to think about? Red balloon. If I tell you, right, you're doing a podcast for fuck's sake, don't, um, uh, the first thing you're going to do, the first word out of your mouth is going to be, uh, or so, so don't get in your own head about it. I think we're in our head so much about this kind of stuff and it leads to this real monster of overthinking and it's the overthinking that's the killer. You are going to, um, you are going to uh, that's how we naturally communicate.

5:46Susie Ashfield: If you are starting to think, actually, you know what, every other word is um, every other word is uh, I'm just not as fluid or as fluent as I'd like to be, the best trick is this. Get out of your own head, but essentially what's missing is the pause. That is the golden ticket to all of this. If you want to sound eloquent, if you want to sound confident, the trick is just to slow it down. Slowing it down, like you pointed out earlier, might feel like changing the habit of a lifetime. But in actual fact, if you change that and reframe it slightly, not to, I need to slow myself down, which is almost useless because you're going to say, slow down, slow down, slow down, slow down, and nothing will happen.

6:26Tell yourself, I'm going to add in a pause.

6:29Susie Ashfield: Every single time I finish a sentence, even if I have to break halfway, I'm going to set myself the challenge of three big pauses per meeting or one pause per statement. And if you just build in that regular little habit of adding in a pause here and there, you will find you are much more in control of what you're saying. And suddenly you will reduce those arms and reduce those earths. But honestly, step one, don't worry about it.

6:53Grace Beverley: And how do you start to identify maybe what your weaknesses are in communication? Because I think that a lot of people think that they want to communicate better, but don't necessarily know what better looks like because they don't know what they're not necessarily doing up to scratch now.

7:08Susie Ashfield: And I would put money on the fact that that same group of people are only listening to their own opinion. So we are our own worst critics when it comes to this stuff. You do a presentation, the first thing you do is kick yourself for everything that went wrong. You go into a meeting, you make a few bit points, you kick yourself for not expressing those points better. And the trouble with that is it's not going to improve you. If anything, you are going to feel worse and worse about your communication. You are only listening to the worst critic in the room. And more importantly, you are the only person in that room who wasn't watching you because you were speaking.

7:41Susie Ashfield: A couple of ideas. Find someone you trust. Someone who you think actually their feedback is really honest and it's really fair. And I listen to them. I think they're good at giving feedback. that might be the only person you need to speak to when it comes to how did I do and push them on that if you feel like they're going to sugarcoat it say to them look I'm actually really trying to improve so I've taken on board all of the nice stuff you've given me all of the praise all of the things you liked I'm going to do more of that what do you think I could change and what needs to be adjusted and here's the important part if they say actually that was fine just keep doing more of that, you've got to believe them.

8:21Susie Ashfield: That's a really important thing to do because we just, if somebody's too nice to us, it feels automatic to just reject that and push it away. The other thing you can do, and I wouldn't do it until you're feeling a lot more comfortable with your communication, is you can always record yourself. You can always start to go, okay, got something important to do a couple of weeks down the line from now. And what I'm going to do is I'm actually going to practice and I know that first draft is going to be pretty rough, pretty stop, start, but I'm going to push through. Do it the first time, see what happens.

8:52Susie Ashfield: Second time, it'll be slightly better. By the third or the fourth time, something promising will start to appear. That's the one you want to record and then hear yourself back. I'm a public speaking coach and I think people assume you're just born like this. You're just born with this, aren't you? You just wake up and you're like this or you're not. Absolutely not. Professional speakers, really good communicators are either doing it every single day. They're living and breathing it or they're practicing it. They're saying it out loud constantly. That is the best way to get better at anything.

9:23Grace Beverley: Interesting. And what would you say is the biggest change that people notice when they start communicating better?

9:29Susie Ashfield: They'll start to feel it. They will start to tell me, do you know what? It wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Do you know what? I made a few mistakes, but I let it go. That's a really important part. When they get comfortable enough to say, do you know what, I think there were points there that weren't up to my own standard, but it doesn't matter because I felt comfortable. I landed the one thing I want to land and I'm feeling a little bit more confident about doing it again. That's the ultimate sign.

9:54Grace Beverley: Okay. And so I want to go into specifics of how we communicate strongly, how we improve who's listening to us, how to be able to work towards being both more engaging and more charismatic and all of these different things. What do you think, both in public speaking and, you know, maybe speaking to someone in an interview or whatever it might be, so it's not public, but it's not necessarily with the friendliest audience, what makes people listen to you and really hear what you have to say?

10:29Susie Ashfield: I think with the best speakers, the speakers that really seem to engage their audience through a couple of things. Firstly, they know exactly what their key message is. Even in a job interview, they have left you with a message. Second of all, there is an authenticity there. It feels like you were speaking to someone you've known for a very long time. That is tied to the third thing, their storytellers. If there's one thing you take away from this podcast that's useful and practical and you can start to do it, tell more stories. when you're in a job interview, that's all you were doing. No one really knows where you were or what you were doing before you came to this job interview.

11:06Susie Ashfield: It's up to you to tell them. And you can put that forward to the other party in stories and they're going to enjoy it and they're going to get something from it. And if you can crack that storytelling formula and it's super easy, beginning, middle, end, but you'd be amazed how easy it is to get wrong as well. That's it. People will engage with you because we love hearing stories. And that feeds into this authenticity piece. You are telling me who you are. It feels like I know you. It feels like I trust you. Tell more stories.

11:34Grace Beverley: And how do you make a story out of something that doesn't necessarily feel like a story to you in the beginning? So say you're trying to write a speech or you're trying to write a presentation and you know that storytelling is going to be most effective. But it's, I don't know, something about data or your work or whatever it might be that doesn't necessarily feel the most engaging as like a story in itself. How do you start to actually form that type of story in order to be able to then speak on it?

12:06Susie Ashfield: Even if you've got something really dry, even you think, hang on, I'm just presenting last week's sales figures. Behind every single number, there is an individual. There is a face. There is the journey of the consumer. All you've got to do is move past the facts and into the face. I'll give you an example. I was writing or helping a client write a talk, a really important talk about cybersecurity. and he needed an example to talk about. He needed stories, and he said, look, there is nothing. I'm essentially doing data control. How on earth are we going to get something glamorous or interesting or a story out of this?

12:40Susie Ashfield: And all you do is you start using the internet. You start finding the stories or extreme examples of where things have gone really right or really wrong. There is, can you remember the guy in Wales who threw his USB stick away and it went into landfill and it's reportedly worth about 8 million quid and it's got all of this Bitcoin on it. There is a brilliant story. It's not your story, but you can borrow it and you can use that in a number of ways to tell really exciting lessons about why we need to just make things really secure and make sure we're not throwing things away and making sure that all of our data is protected.

13:13Susie Ashfield: So find those extreme examples. They don't have to come from you, but they're out there and they're everywhere. Grab them, stick them in, and suddenly you've got something really engaging. And if you start your presentation with that, people will just be hooked from the off.

13:27Grace Beverley: So I want to talk more about those kind of specifics because I feel like that's what people will really be able to grab onto and put into their own public speaking and put into their own interviews and all of that. Can you talk to me about the importance of things like the specifics of like, is it about volume? Is it about confidence? Is it about the message and the kind of clarity of that message? Like, what should you be thinking when you are walking into a room, when you have to do some effective communication? And what of those things, just some like cheat sheet things that would be important and helpful for people?

14:00Susie Ashfield: Great. OK, so let's say you've only got five minutes. Let's say this meeting's been sprung on you and it actually turns out to be quite an important meeting. You start to panic a little bit. That's normal, right? Except that being nervous is a completely normal thing. That's the fine way to feel. what I would ask myself if I was in a similar situation is okay question number one why am I here and I don't want you to have an existential crisis in that but really think about what is the purpose of this meeting what is the purpose of this discussion what would the right objective be here what do I want the outcome the more you kind of drill into the what is the purpose what is the why the more you'll understand it and that communication won't get lost question two is much harder.

14:42Susie Ashfield: But if you can work it out, then that's 90 % of your work done. Let's say the meeting has happened. What is the one message I wanted to land? If they walk away and I was to ask someone who was listening to me, hey, what did Susie say? What would I want them to boil it down to? When you have worked out that, that's your job done. That's all you need to land. People think public speaking, communication, interviews, they're very hard things. But if you land that one single message, chances are that's all the audience we're going to take away anyway. If you're looking for a bit of a blueprint or a cheat sheet I think you used, this is how I'd do it.

15:18Susie Ashfield: Statement, evidence, statement. Let's say you are entering a meeting and the debate is coffee or tea. And you in your heart of hearts say, coffee, I'm a coffee drinker. And I really want to land a point about coffee and how actually caffeine is good for you. That's the point I want to land. So you come up with your statement. They're talking about tea, talking about tea. What I want to say here is caffeine has proven to have good benefits. Caffeine is actually good for you. Evidence. For example, I was reading this report the other day and they said actually caffeine has various benefits. And if you have a limited amount of cups, that's actually good for your heart.

15:55Susie Ashfield: And then come back to your statement, which is why I'm going to sit here and say caffeine is actually more beneficial for us than we believe. So it's that statement, evidence or example, statement. And that's it. Now you've got a really neatly wrapped, succinct little statement.

16:09Grace Beverley: Yeah, it's like what's coming across to me in the way that you're saying this is like, usually when you're trying to get something across or you might have a half an hour presentation or interview or whatever it might be, it's actually a lot simpler than you think it is. And I feel like one of the things that really helped me with interviews overall was, and this was actually when I was interviewing for jobs way back when and the thing that I came back to again and again and again was I always went into the room with three things that I would make sure they knew no matter what they asked me by the time I came out and I would have evidence for each of those things so either it would be like that I'm a very tenacious person and I will make something happen if it needs to happen and then there would be evidence or whatever and I remember as soon as I started doing that I started realizing that actually interviews of course like there are going to be some tricky things that people throw at you but really you can almost like dictate the narrative totally by just distilling it and i think it's really easy to get overwhelmed by going into any sort of speaking scenario particularly if you don't like speaking yeah and over complicating it and you know needing to be like oh well you have to know about these 10 years of experience and this and this and this and this and it's like actually in reality there's probably only like one to three things that someone needs to walk out of the room thinking and if there's any more then it's probably quite confusing or it's just too much information and I feel like that's always really helped me and that I feel like that's what you're kind of coming back to in terms of have your solid core argument know how to get it across and I think that statement evidence statement is a really great kind of hack in order to do that and just make sure you don't leave that room without that person knowing that.

17:54Yeah, totally.

17:55Susie Ashfield: Just gather your stories. People panic about job interviews. How do I prepare for a job interview? I've got no idea what they're going to throw at me. Get your opening statement ready. You can guarantee the opening question is going to be a little bit like, tell me about yourself or what you've been doing for the past six months. So that's an easy one to prepare for. All you need to do after that is get your best stories in place. Go through the brief, Go through the job spec and go, right, what skills are they really looking for here? Like you say, pick out the words that resonate with you and then have an example, case study or story ready to go.

18:26Susie Ashfield: And again, that final bit, actually say it out loud. If you've said it out loud a few times, you will feel 10 times more confident than if you just walk into the interview and go, well, I've had 16 coffees. We'll see how this goes. Yeah.

18:37Grace Beverley: And would you recommend then before something like an interview, practicing it out loud to yourself?

18:43Susie Ashfield: or the dog, anyone who will listen to you. Absolutely, it's a really good thing to do. And again, hit that record button. So lots of people I know, particularly the perfectionists, they really like to prep. And their version of prep feels a little bit like exam revision. They write, they write, they write, they write, they write. They never move on to that second stage, which is, now I'm going to say the answers out loud and hear them. And I know why they don't want to do that, because they know they're not going to give the perfect answer the first time. so they'd go back to what feels safe, which is prepping and writing and prepping and writing.

19:15Susie Ashfield: Make that leap. It is not going to feel comfortable, but if you'd answered, what have I been up to for the past six months? Six times in the last week before you actually said it out loud to the person who was interviewing you, you would feel so much better than all of the writing you could have done. So when you're in a good place, when you think, okay, this is sounding quite good, be brave enough to hit record, hear what you were saying and listen to yourself back.

19:39Grace Beverley: I think that's such useful advice when it comes to interviews. What I'd really love to hear is like the equivalent for public speaking. Because I think, as you said, it's people's number one fear, higher than death. And I think, I mean, I get questions about it all the time. Like, how do you get good at public speaking? How do you overcome the fear of it? How do you make sure that you go up there and deliver something engaging? You don't talk too fast. You don't talk too slow. You don't make everyone feel awkward and embarrassed and all of these different things. So what would you say are the most important things to practice when it comes to public speaking?

20:10Grace Beverley: We've already talked about the kind of scripting and the storytelling, but the actual being there, walking on stage or walking in front of the presentation room, what are the important things that we need to remember?

20:22Susie Ashfield: So don't stick rigidly to a script. We talk about roughly what you want to say, but if you script yourself, you are going to have a problem for a couple of reasons. One, it's going to sound stiff. People are going to tell immediately if you are just regurgitating something you've written out loud. And it will feel really quite dull and a bit like a politician. We like moments where we get it wrong. Organic things happen and that's a really good thing. We like it when people are. We like it when people are because it reminds us of us. So get off the script. Be brave enough to go, I would rather have this with a few mistakes and a few fluffs, but it's organic and it sounds like me, rather than I can guarantee this is going to be word perfect and I won't shift from that script.

21:03Susie Ashfield: The other problem is you are going to get in your head about it. If you're trying to remember a script and you are not a trained actor, that is going to put so much pressure on you to perform and you're going to stop thinking about the audience and what they need to hear and the only thing in your head is going to be, what's my next line? What's my next line? So get off the script. Five bullet points would be more than enough for a 15-minute TED-style delivery. get your five bullet points in place and I'm going to assume one of those bullet points is your key message because that's the thing you've got to land just practice saying it out loud and know every single time you say it out loud it's going to be slightly different to the last draft but you're going to land all of the messages you want to land and you're going to go on there again accepting those nerves remember nerves are normal remember there'd be a problem if you didn't feel a bit nervous and you're just going to fucking say it and that's it and then instead of kicking yourself, you work out what went well, and you do it again and again and again and again.

21:59Susie Ashfield: The nerves and the adrenaline will lead to a little bit of umming and uhhing or maybe going a little bit red. So what? No one in the history of time has ever gone, oh, well, she's gone bright red. I think I'll just walk out of the room right now. But again, if that's the only thing in your head, you're going to really struggle to focus on what it is you want to say. We're worried about these tiny little things that don't really matter, except it is normal to worry about them, but they're not going to derail you. It is quite normal to feel that surge of adrenaline. You need it. It actually helps you perform.

22:31Susie Ashfield: Use it.

22:31Grace Beverley: Yeah, that's so interesting what you say about bullet points versus script. And it holds so true to me because I can never learn a script. I'll get caught up on whether it was meant to be an and or with or whatever. And that's not the actual message, of course. It's not like, was this word meant to be before this word or whatever? My brain just doesn't take it in that way. And I feel like part of the reason that I've really come to terms with that is the fact that when I do bullet points, I know what I'm actually saying. I'm not just trying to say the thing that was in the right order of the right sentence or whatever it might be.

23:01Grace Beverley: It's like when you do bullet points, for example, like I used to do this before exams, when I was trying to revise for them, is I would know that I wouldn't remember something if I was just going by rote over and over and over. Like the way you learn something is by telling someone about it. So I would always, I'd be in my room or I'd be on FaceTime to a friend or whatever it might be. And you're just talking to them about something and that it adds so much engagement as well. And it adds different ways that you think about things. And that's kind of how you're able to add lib in there. And I just think that it's one of those areas where it's tough because preparation, of course, leads to better work in most areas.

23:37Grace Beverley: And I agree with that with public speaking too. But I so think that it has to be the right preparation because if that preparation is purely along the lines of like as you say reading this script over and over and making sure it's positioned exactly how you want it to be rather than knowing inherently what the message is and what you're saying and then being able to kind of riff on that and ad lib around that whether you are doing a big talk or whether you are just presenting at work there's this like level of competency that comes across as well when you're able to translate things from bullet points rather and from scripts, I always see it any time someone's presenting to me at work.

24:16Grace Beverley: If they're essentially talking to me about something and we're having a conversation about something, I believe they know what they are talking about 10 times more than if they are just, you know, saying, and then this leads to this, leads to this. Particularly now, I would say, in the world of AI, because this could have just been flung together by ChatGPT. And actually, if you're talking to me about this and you're saying, well, this has risen this much this year, but really we think this is down to this. And the story behind that is that like, whatever it might be, it's like, now I know you can do your job versus now I know that as much as I really appreciate the fact that you prepared so heavily, I don't want to hear what you thought three days ago when you were writing it down.

24:59Grace Beverley: I want to hear the engagement of what you're actually thinking now. And I think that's just where we've not necessarily, I don't think, been set up in the best way with education like I formal education I actually had zero presentations anywhere for anything in any of my exams and that was probably just a path I took I know lots of other people did but the only thing you're really taught is like don't read off the slides but other than that it's like you know there's not a lot of kind of forming a story around it or showing competence by even if it just looks like you're riffing on it rather than something you've practiced a hundred

25:32Susie Ashfield: times in your room yeah you know this if this could have been an email why didn't you just send me an email. If it's written by ChatGPT, why don't you just put me on ChatGPT directly? And what we really want there, and this is what communication is really all about, is you. It should feel like you with all the stories and the jokes and the small fuck-ups that make you a human being. I would rather see that in a client a hundred, a thousand times over than someone who's memorized a script beautifully that I could have read myself in my own time. lean in to what makes you you it's not going to be perfect because human beings intrinsically are not perfect but it's more exciting if i hear about your vulnerabilities then here's a perfect representation of a script missed calls slow replies messages scattered everywhere if you're running a business that's not just annoying it's revenue slipping away that's where quo comes in Spelled Q-U-O.

26:29Susie Ashfield: Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2. One shared business number for calls and texts. Stop missing customers. Start capturing every opportunity. Try Quo free and get 20 % off your first six months at Quo.com slash tech. That's Q-U-O dot com slash tech. Quo. No missed calls. No missed customers. That new thing? Yeah, we've got it. The Drop by GNC, bringing you all the newness that matters, handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day, The Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first.

27:14Susie Ashfield: Non-stop innovation and fresh finds daily. Explore what's new and what's next on The Drop by GNC. Guys, it's no use putting it off. The best time for an underwear refresh is now. Tommy John underwear is designed for a perfect fit that stays put all day. There's zero chafe thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands. And their innovative horizontal quick-draw fly is a game-changer. With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you. Don't settle for less. Go to TommyJohn.com today for 25 % off your first order with code COMFORT. That's TommyJohn.com slash COMFORT.

27:51Susie Ashfield: Tommy John, comfort perfected.

27:56Grace Beverley: And kind of along those lines, because I think that I 100 % believe in the importance of authenticity and having yourself shine through and all of that. I also know that due to stereotypes and preconceptions and all of that, certain people might be taken more seriously than other people or certain people might be listened to in a way that other people aren't. What are some things you can do to change how you're perceived in that way? Obviously knowing that there are some preconceptions, there are some stereotypes. We all have them, even if you think you really don't, like you do when you're hearing other people.

28:30So how can we have the best chance of overcoming those?

28:35Susie Ashfield: Biases exist. Of course they do. But what I would say is this. I more frequently see people who are so worried about that that they over-formalize and become ultra-formal versions of themselves. They're quite cold, austere characters. Yeah, I've definitely done that before. Absolutely, because we're worried. We worry about our confidence. We worry about how we're being perceived. So we decide to become ultra-cold versions. And it's not fun. What we really want are people who feel like, we're just down the pub, you and I talking, having a laugh. That holds just as much credibility as a person who's going, I need to grill you now and tell you how much homework I've done.

29:10Susie Ashfield: We don't like it because that feels more risky. But every single day I ask my clients, who would you rather trust with 20 quid? in the hopes of getting it back. If you're going to loan a friend 20 quid, would you rather loan it to a politician or to a comedian? Every single time people pick the comedian. Now, technically they shouldn't, right? Comedians are famously bad with managing money. Politicians got a better chance of getting it back. So why do we trust the comedian and not the politician? It's because the politician is that coldest, dear person, telling us, don't do this, I can do that, but you can't.

29:45Susie Ashfield: Whereas comedians go, hey, look, I fucked up today. I've spilled coffee on myself, but let's have a laugh and I'm going to make you feel better. That is the person we trust. That is the people who bizarrely we give more credibility to. I think we're so worried in public speaking that this is a credibility test. That's actually having adverse effects. You do not need to prove yourself. Public speaking is not a test of your experience. Just as you've said, I'd far rather someone communicated to me in that organic way that feels a little bit rough and ready, but I a sense of who they are and what their knowledge is rather than here is a beautiful perfect email that I use chat GPT with.

30:22Susie Ashfield: So it keeps coming back to that. Don't be frightened of showing them who you are. Very rarely do I hear any of my people who are in leadership positions say they're just not professional with clients. What they do say is they lack confidence with clients. And what they're actually saying there is they're so nervous they present as these unhuman-like representations of themselves. I want them to relax. My tip there, and I want to be very clear on this tip on what it is and what it isn't, is I call it the pint and a half effect. Think about yourself when you are in a relaxed environment. Maybe after about a pint and a half, depending on your height and weight, you would be relaxed and you'll enjoy yourself.

31:01Susie Ashfield: Me? I'm gone. I'm also gone at a pint and a half. I'm five foot. Very small girl. Yeah, exactly. So maybe half a pint for you and I, that will be fine. But after about that amount, you start to relax. You start to care a little bit less as to what people think of you. That is the version I want my clients to be. That person who comes on stage and goes, all right, let's talk about it. We've got some sales figures to discuss, guys. It's a bit rough and ready, but let's get into it. Rather than the person who goes, sales are up by 14.2 % and down in little Sarah by 33%. Meaningless.

31:31Grace Beverley: Yeah, it's so interesting because I think a lot about work as this, it's almost this facade for everyone like you're you all have your home lives and the way you talk to your friends and the way you joke around and it feels like when you go to work for some reason everyone's defenses are obviously so so people try to be taken a lot more seriously when as you say there is that averse effect of actually if you come across on a level you're more likely to be perceived as on a level to the person you're presenting to and usually the person you're presenting to is above you yeah so if you come across in that way of like we are able to like you know we might not be the same hierarchical level but we're able to discuss things we're able to say yeah god that was a bit shit wasn't it like i would much rather work with someone who can look at their own results or the company's results and be like oh it has been a shit week like because if we're both lying about things or we're both looking at something and we're both thinking and i don't want to say that because i don't want to hurt your feelings because that you're on commercial or but you don't want to say that because it's going to make you look worse that actually makes you look less competent because you can't read the numbers like because you can't perceive the numbers in the way that they actually need to be perceived and things aren't always going to be good but I think it's so interesting I think so many women it's perhaps and this is a huge like kind of generalization perhaps because men don't tend to need to prove themselves as much in order to be listened to they don't think about that as much which is why they come across sometimes more charismatic and sometimes more, you know, like they can just talk about this, that and the other.

33:08Grace Beverley: And I think that that's so interesting. I'd never truly thought about the fact that one of the most valuable public speaking, both kind of public and private, whatever it might be, is that relaxed confidence rather than confidence around competence. When it's confidence around competence, then you feel like if that's what's being recommended you feel like okay well I've got to show I know everything rather than just I need to show up make sure my point gets across this is an evaluation of whether I'm good at my job even if it is even if it's like a promotion presentation it's like this is showing who I am and what I have to say and it just takes away that whole kind of facade and clearly is a win-win as well totally and the trick for that is to care less an amazing skill if you can do it

33:57Susie Ashfield: But I would say the three points you want to consider if you really think, do you know what, I'm just setting the bar a little bit too high for myself here. If every day is a 10 out of 10 and I'm kicking myself when I hit a nine, everything's going to feel super exhausting and super stressful for you. Careless. Three ways to do that. Firstly, acknowledge that not everyone is going to love you. And that is absolutely they're right. Second, know you know your shit. Women know their shit, but they need to know they know their shit, and there is a big difference. And the final thing is to try. If you don't do it and you don't expose yourself to it, you're never going to get better at it.

34:36Susie Ashfield: I have so many clients, particular women, who go, I know I told my boss when I got this job I don't present. I just, no, I'll be really good. I'm so good at my job, but I do not do public speaking. And they're holding themselves back. Why would you? Be shit. Give yourself permission to be confidently average. Go into a room and say, you know what, this actually doesn't have to be a 10 out of 10. All it needs to be is confidently average. And you will bring that bar down from 10 out of 10 to 6 out of 10. And you'll probably hit an 8. But you will get better and better and better. And you'll feel a lot more excited about doing it, which is the best way to throw yourself at it.

35:13Grace Beverley: And with us talking so much about, I guess, attitude towards public speaking rather than what you're actually saying, How much would you say perception is voice and kind of how you show up and that confidence and performance, I guess, versus the actual language of what you're using?

35:31Susie Ashfield: It's an ongoing debate in my industry, but here's a little test you can do. So I want you to think about a teacher you had at school who you either really loved or really loathed. Got one? Just bring them really to the forefront of your mind. Yes. OK. Great. Can you remember what that teacher looked like?

35:49Grace Beverley: No, but I can't remember anything. I have the memory of a goldfish.

35:53Susie Ashfield: Well, that's okay. Normally most people say, yes, I had Mr. Heaney, he was an awful physics teacher, I bloody hated him. I have a really clear memory of what he looked like. I can even remember the tone of his voice slightly and a very nasal voice for a physics teacher. And then I say to them, okay, great, so you remember what they looked like. You remember the tone of their voice. and they'll normally give me some information and I bloody hated him because he made me feel like I couldn't do it and I go oh okay and he made you feel like you were a fool okay fine and final question can you now please recall something that Mr Heaney said to you word for word about physics and I go no absolutely not and that's where the memory fails so whilst there's no exact science every single time I ask that question no one to this day has been able to give me a single line of content, which makes me think that the delivery is so important.

36:42Susie Ashfield: It is not what you say, but how you say it. It's not what you say, it's how you say it that really lands with your audience. You do not have to go into a room with full confidence, but a little bit of pretending to be confident goes a really long way. Simple stuff. Pushing yourself back in your chair. A little bit of space here. That's it. You've got great posture. Roll those shoulders back. hands on the table obviously not like that because you want to look like you're in the room and occasionally even if you're not speaking just nodding and smiling at what the other person has said and even if you say nothing during that entire meeting everyone go yeah yeah grace knew what she was saying there even if you've said nothing and i survey this with people all the time yeah they didn't say anything but they really wanted to be in the room they looked like they knew what was going on and I really trusted them.

37:32Susie Ashfield: Body language is absolutely huge. These things matter. So if you go in to a meeting and you're sat like this and you're sort of slumped in your chair and you say something really important like we just don't have that in the budget, we're completely under-resourced in that area, but you present like you don't want to be there, that's how people will read you. If you go into the room with that kind of body language that projects confidence, even if you're not feeling confident, that is how everyone in the room will start to read you. And in turn, you will start to feel like you always have been that confident person.

38:04Susie Ashfield: A good trick is just to imagine like there's a tiny piece of string just pulling you up like that and suddenly we look like we want to be there. And that is a really good trick for just getting by because the moment they start to look at you and think they're really confident, that's where the magic happens because you start to think, do you know what? I am confident. I am in control. Okay, I didn't make as many points as I wanted to make, but I landed the message and I looked like I wanted to be there. So confidence is not just fake it to make it. It's fake it to make it to actually become it.

38:32Grace Beverley: So just to recap, because I think this is really important. If someone had their first presentation at work, and it's a very important presentation, what should they absolutely make sure they do to prepare?

38:43Susie Ashfield: Fine. Okay, so you've got the brief. Someone has said, we need a presentation on the thing you are doing. The first thing you're not going to do is see it as a test. Because immediately, for whatever reason, we think, oh God, this is a test of my credibility. This is to check that I'm actually doing my job. No. They know you are doing your job. That's why you are doing the job you are doing. So don't see it as a test. Ask yourself this question. So why are they asking you for this information? That's question number one. When you've worked out why they need the information they're asking you for, that will help you for point number two.

39:15Susie Ashfield: What is the one thing I want to land? What is the one thing they really need to know? We need to change X if we want to do Y. We really need to change X if we want to do Y. That's the only thing I need to land. What I would do is I'd put that in the middle of a piece of paper. I'm a pen and paper person myself. You can put it on my computer screen if you like. There's my key message in front of me. And then around the key message, write all of the stuff. All of the stuff that you think directly correlates to that message. What can I attach to this message? Now, let's say you've been given a generous 45 minutes to deliver that message.

39:49Susie Ashfield: Do not fall into the trap of thinking, okay, I've got something good here, but what the hell am I going to do with the other 20 minutes? The answer is it's up to 45 minutes. You can land your message in 15. Fantastic. Give people their time back or have a facilitated conversation around, okay, so you've got my message here. What are the important questions we need to talk about? Do not feel like you have to fill time. I feel like that's a day one error. When you've got all of the content around that key message, and as you know, I suggest more than a few of those pieces of content are case studies or stories, work out what are the really important parts here.

40:26Susie Ashfield: Don't go, how do I present all of this? Work out what to keep and work out what to cut. The most confident speakers take a less is more approach. And then it's as simple as, here's my key message. Here are perhaps three case studies that prove what I'm saying. I'll add in some statistics for the guys who like statistics, but that's going in the handout. That's certainly not going to be the most important thing that I land here and they're going to wrap up with that key message again that is the easiest blueprint

40:52Grace Beverley: for a good presentation first of all that's great information very important and i got your key messages are very clear um i want to speak quickly about filler words because i think this is something i mean this is definitely something i struggle with i think that naturally i put a lot of ums and ahs places that i don't necessarily need to and i like to fill gaps and all of that I've definitely improved over time in terms of like not filling silence just because I need to particularly in important conversations or negotiations or whatever it is. But I think it's something we really struggle with, particularly when we're consuming a lot of media where there are lots of filler words everywhere.

41:31Grace Beverley: Why do filler words creep in so easily?

41:33Susie Ashfield: It's a replacement. It's a verbalization of a pause. A filler word is when you should have paused. Okay. That's it. If you were my client, what I would tell you is, well, first of all, I suppose I'm going to give you a little bit of unsolicited feedback. Please. I listen to some of your podcasts. You might not be aware that in your earlier podcasts, you are speaking a lot faster than some of your later podcasts. So whatever you're doing is working. Thank you. I've tried really hard. So there you go.

42:05Grace Beverley: But you tell me what's working. What are you doing there? So I find it very hard to think in my head without thinking out loud. Like that's something I struggle with day to day. Like if you tell me to think about something right now, I'm getting like monkey symbols in my brain. Like that's all I'm getting. I know that I naturally speak very fast. And that's something that's actually been rewarded on social media because people like you to speak at two times speed, which I'm great at. And I also like. I just think that I've tried to gradually not speak so fast and not need to hurtle from one thing to the next and just try to practice the art of interviewing because that is what I'm doing and I have absolutely zero experience in it other than just trying it.

42:53Susie Ashfield: And it's making a difference. Thank you. Just in that question, you pause because you were really consciously think about it, monkeys with symbols outside of that. There was a lovely pause in the middle of that sentence because you were telling yourself, God, a pause, got to slow down. I'm going to repeat it. That is your golden ticket. The reason Louis Theroux, who I love as a public speaker, I think he's brilliant, the reason he gets so far with his interviewees is because he's giving them space to talk. If you want to be a really confident speaker, it is so often not about what you say, but what about what you don't say?

43:27Susie Ashfield: It's that person who just goes, over to you. And wait, that is the most confident thing you can do. BetterHelp Online Therapy bought this 30-second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are,

43:45Grace Beverley: to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath in and out.

43:57Susie Ashfield: Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self-care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com slash random podcast for 10 % off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax.

44:20Grace Beverley: And I want to speak about that in more detail in a little bit because I also think there is a difference between being a woman and a man in that scenario, just in that I think that there is an expectation of women to make other people feel comfortable in all scenarios. And therefore, if someone isn't saying as much, it is more likely to be in our nature slash we have been generally rewarded for jumping in and making them feel less comfortable, which is not necessarily an experience where I've had when I've gone on male podcasts, nor what I think they are aiming for nor rewarded for. So I think that's also an added layer, which I'm going to come on to speak about because I want to speak about women specifically in communication as so much of our audience is women.

45:03Grace Beverley: And I think that a lot of the advice out there is not so specifically taking into account some of these things that we've been conditioned to feel. Before we come to that, I'd love to know for someone who's trying to cut out filler words, every time they try and do that, they just can't get a sentence out because they become so hyper aware of it. How do we avoid that?

45:21Susie Ashfield: I had a client in that exact position and she was brilliant and she was very intelligent and And she'd just gotten herself down this absolute wormhole of she had so many things to say. She held herself accountable to a really high standard. She said, the thing that leaves my mouth has to be perfect. And if it's not perfect, I'd rather that it wasn't out there. And I think that's a really female trait. I really need this sentence to be perfect. And if it's not perfect, I don't want to fail. Or I don't want to be a 6 out of 10 or a 7 out of 10. It really took a lot of work. and the first thing we had to do was just get her out of her own head.

45:59Susie Ashfield: So we were trying all sorts of techniques and it wasn't an easy client to crack. She really had worked herself up with this. So the first thing we did was, okay, do you know what? That's going on. Those little monkeys with their symbols are going on in your brain. Monkeys are over there. Let's push them over there for now because they're actually not very helpful. All you need to do at your next meeting is be present. That's it. Stop worrying about how you're being perceived. and instead I want you to focus on three really interesting points from this meeting that you think other people have made and we got her from focusing internally to externally and then the next step was okay so now you're focusing not so much on how you're being perceived and you're caring less about what other people are thinking of you now you're just going to be present you don't have to say a single sentence in fact in your next meeting you're not going to say anything but you are going to do that thing of going okay tiny little noises to encourage other people to speak.

46:51Susie Ashfield: And then the third step, okay, so you've got this other meeting coming up. This is the thing you want to say. Your only job here is to land one single sentence. Don't you owe that to yourself, that one single sentence, because all of your research, all of your work, and their boss was really good. You know, her boss was throwing her questions to try and encourage her to speak up. And she's going, I've got nothing to add, nothing to add. Even though she had so much to add, build yourself up to that point slowly. One sentence is enough. Her concern was the moment would pass. And that's quite a valid concern, particularly when conversation moves so quickly to your point.

47:26Susie Ashfield: You can bring it back round. You can always say, I just want to add in one thing. On that X that we were talking about earlier, I wanted to mention A, B, and C. And suddenly, she was back in control of the conversation. Don't worry about the segues. Don't worry about how far that conversation has moved on. If you've got something to say, just fucking say it.

47:46Grace Beverley: So I feel like a lot of women are taught to soften their communication. As I kind of alluded to before, we have been conditioned to make other people feel comfortable in as many situations as possible. And therefore, even if it might be a really important conversation, you're asking for a pay rise. You don't want someone else to feel uncomfortable. And therefore, you're immediately, even before you've said something, you're saying, sorry, this is a stupid idea. but or you're saying obviously of course I don't need that full pay rise when you've just asked for that full pay rise why is it that we still feel like we need to soften our communication

48:26Susie Ashfield: and how can we fight that I think to your point it's around we are so worried about making other people comfortable we don't want other people's reaction to be upset or angry or anything like that and it's that old cliche but I think it's a good one there is a reason on airplanes they say you if the plane's going down, fit your own oxygen mask first before helping others. We've got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This to me is huge. I think particularly in 2026, we feel like I have to be comfortable, but more important, everyone else around me has to be comfortable. We're on social media all the time.

49:02Susie Ashfield: It is impossible for us to post anything without it being criticised. I said something the other day along the lines of, treat your audience with a message that makes them feel as though you've given them a basket of puppies and someone wrote, I don't like puppies. I like cats. This video is not for me. I think, well, you didn't have to watch it. But you're right. Women really go, oh, wait, could I say that? Because what if there was someone out there who preferred kittens to puppies? Fuck it. Just say it. Just say it. And it's that principle of some people won't like it. And that's absolute. Some people will not like you asking for a pay rise because they go, oh, that's a headache.

49:39Susie Ashfield: OK. But if you then immediately back down and go, but obviously, if you don't want to give me a pay rise, we could revisit this conversation in 10 years time. You've lost. Meanwhile, someone who is more comfortable with making someone else feel uncomfortable sits there and goes, so what about that pay rise? And they hold that silence and they wait the other person to slightly flounder and slightly go, okay, what am I going to say here? They're going to get the pay rise. We have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You do not have a right to be comfortable all the time, or you do have a right to be comfortable all the time.

50:10Susie Ashfield: but in a few years you're going to wonder where that pay rise was, why you don't have the nice office, why you're not getting as far as you wanted to and everyone else is going, oh, they're so great, they're so lovely to work with because I just put more stuff on their plate and they never say no. We've got to get better at asking for what we want, making other people feel a little bit uncomfortable, holding that silence and words like just so, it was like and sorry, have to go.

50:36Grace Beverley: Agree.

50:37Susie Ashfield: Agree.

50:37Grace Beverley: Agree. We're all in agreement. Agree. I want to quickly speak about social media and speech and how it's affecting generally how we speak every day. How we, I mean, there's so much that's affecting to how we consume information, to how we believe we should be speaking, all of these different things. How do you feel like particularly TikTok and short form content in general has changed the way we speak?

51:01Susie Ashfield: It's going to. That's an inevitability. I spoke to a client the other day and I said, oh, how was that presentation you gave? And he went, oh, immaculate vibes. I went, I'm sorry, what? He went, I'm sorry, I've been listening to social media too much. I went, I can tell. We pick up language all the time. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. You will speak differently to your parents. The generation below us will speak differently to us. Language changes. If you are consuming too much social media, it's a bit like eating too much junk food. You are going to see the impact of that. You're going to get bad skin if you're eating greasy food every single night.

51:40Susie Ashfield: Same thing with social media. It is going to have an imprint on you. There have been some really interesting cases in America. Kim Kardashian has this kind of, we call it vocal fry. It's when we go, ah. It's actually really damaging for your voice. And as Kim Kardashian's social media presence was on the rise, the increase in cases of vocal cords being damaged because it became popular, which is bad for you, don't do it. That went up because people wanted to speak like her because she was trendy, she was cool, and people wanted to copy that image or that sound rather. Sometimes I hear, and again, this seems to be particularly females, the inflection, the Callie inflection, everything's a question, everything's comfortable, and nothing is being landed.

52:25Grace Beverley: That's a really great American accent. Thank you so much.

52:27Susie Ashfield: Really impressed. Land your sentences. It's, I'd like to talk about our pay rise, not I'd like to talk about a pay rise because that makes it come, because I've turned it into a question. you, land your sentences. So everything in moderation. Social media is going to have an impact. All you need to do is moderate that. If you are chronically online, to use a young person's phrase, it's going to have some consequences for you.

52:50Grace Beverley: And do you feel like we are less likely to use kind of complex or precise language now?

53:00Susie Ashfield: I don't think we need to use complex language. I have never walked out of a presentation and thought, my God, they use some really sophisticated language. I didn't know what seven out of 10 of those words meant. No one actually thinks like that. But I have seen the opposite reaction. Again, sometimes to use politicians as the example, we go, what the hell was that about? When politicians say, let me be clear, and then are completely unclear, we go, you're not talking to me like a human being. So actually, complex language is not something you need to take on board in order to be understood. Use a language that is your own.

53:40Susie Ashfield: Not social medias, not fancy words that I'm doing to impress people, because again, that's going to tie you up in knots. Find something that feels comfortable to you. Again, it's the pint and a half effect. I'm not telling anyone, drink a pint and a half before your next presentation. But I am telling you, get comfortable with being yourself. Just ease into it. not everyone's going to like it but I'd rather you sounded like you with all of the little problems and all of the stumps and all the ums and uhs than someone you are not because we pick up on that

54:06Grace Beverley: we don't like it so do you feel like people shouldn't be trying to increase their vocabulary or they should be but not necessarily using it just for the sake of it it's the first one you

54:17Susie Ashfield: should increase your vocabulary great if you come across a word ask what it means and particularly call out acronyms somebody sent me an acronym yesterday it was asl I said I have no idea what ASL means. They were a tech person. They said, what do you mean? I said, remember, unless I come from a tech background, I'm not going to know what ASL means. I barely know what SEO means. We've got these acronyms happening all the time. Call them out. Everyone, everyone in the room is frightened of their own perception, which means someone uses an acronym, particularly if they're a leader and everyone goes, must look that up later.

54:49Susie Ashfield: Be the person brave enough to go, I'm really sorry. Can I just clarify what that means there? Or can we just clarify what that acronym means? Take out the sorry. When it comes to expanding your vocab, brilliant. Do it. One word a week, one word a day, if you really want to push yourself. But don't feel the pressure to use elongated words, complicated language, just for the sake of impressing someone else. I'd rather you or yourself.

55:16Grace Beverley: No, I think that's very good advice. And I think that it's one of those things, like with anything else if you go into it too gung-ho and are trying to maybe do a new word a day or whatever it might be they're all gonna bounce straight out again it's like if you can do it at a rate where you can actually start to use things like i love finding a new word i didn't know before and then seeing it everywhere and trying to use it more and all of that but it's you're right that it's not jargon for the sake of jargon like it's again that's then the false confidence that we don't necessarily want to incorporate into our speaking right you You want to just naturally come across in a way that you're not almost speaking a whole different language.

55:53Grace Beverley: And before we end, I'd love to ask you what I ask everyone, which is what is the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

55:59Susie Ashfield: I think it's that piece of advice around fitting your own oxygen mask first. And I have to thank British Airways for that. Thank you very much. Thank you, BA. Who knew a safety manual written in the 90s would have so much value? So fit your own oxygen mask first before you run around the airplane passing out and helping everyone else get uncomfortable.

56:19Grace Beverley: Good advice. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. You've been amazing. No, thank you.

56:38Susie Ashfield: That new thing? Yeah, we've got it. The Drop by GNC, bringing you all the newness that matters, handpicked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next, whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day. The Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first. Non-stop innovation and fresh finds daily. Explore what's new and what's next on The Drop by GNC. Guys, it's no use putting it off. The best time for an underwear refresh is now. Tommy John underwear is designed for a perfect fit that stays put all day.

57:17Susie Ashfield: There's zero chafe thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands. And their innovative horizontal quick draw fly is a game changer. With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you. Don't settle for less. Go to TommyJohn.com today for 25 % off your first order with code COMFORT. That's TommyJohn.com slash COMFORT. Tommy John, comfort perfected. Parles-tu français? Hablas espagnol? Parli italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation-based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world.

57:55Susie Ashfield: With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply.