How to think clearly in the age of AI, anti-intellectualism, and doomscrolling with Shae Omonijo

0:11What is up? I'm Grace Beverley and welcome back to Working Hard. the podcast-shaped guidebook on how to improve your own life and achieve what you actually dreamed of doing. Because life's too short for boring podcasts and bad advice.

0:25What is up and welcome back to Working Hard. I've wanted to talk about this for a while. When we talk about this, it has to be a nuanced conversation. But I feel like online, for the past six months or so, talking about AI full stop has been a no-go because it is terrible for the environment. And that is something that we cannot avoid at the moment. It is the reality. But at the same time, we cannot avoid the conversation entirely. And honestly, pretending this AI takeover is not happening is going to be a difficult strategy for ourselves, for our careers and for policy around AI, for what we can actually do to make it more environmentally friendly, for what we can do to create a future that, yes, still has AI, because realistically, I think that's the future that we're all looking at.

1:17But that is a better one and one that is more cognizant of people and planet and jobs, etc, etc. So instead of speculating or pure panicking, I've wanted to have a really open, frank chat about all of these bad points of AI and also the reality of what that's actually doing to us and our brains and our careers and therefore how we can control it. So I started looking for an expert who was actually thinking seriously about this space, not in like a hype-y way or a doom way, but in a thoughtful academic way. And I came across one of Shay's videos and I immediately knew she was exactly the person that I wanted to have this conversation with.

2:03If you want to learn about AI without fear mongering, how it's fueling anti-intellectualism and what we can individually do about it to use it in a more thoughtful way, stick with me because Shay is doing a Harvard PhD on exactly that. Before we get into it, please make sure you're following this podcast on whatever app you're listening to this on. That means that new episodes will land on your feed every single Monday morning and it helps the podcast more than you know.

2:30Shay Omenijo, are you currently more working hard or hardly working? I am working very hard right now. I have some really amazing projects that are coming out this year. So I'm working more than I normally do. And you like working hard, I assume? I mean, your work is very interesting. Well, I think that's the heart of it. I think because I'm doing work that I genuinely enjoy, I'm actually excited to work on it so you know I'm looking forward to it that's that's how I'll put out and definitely looking forward to it and for anyone who doesn't know the basis of your research or what you research can you give us a little bit of an introduction yes so I help people think critically and I start with that because I think oftentimes we focus on job titles before we focus on the impact that we want to have on the world.

3:22And that happens for me personally through research. I'm a PhD candidate at Harvard, and I was trained as a historian, an intellectual historian. And I started to get really obsessed with how ideas form, how it transfers, and specifically when it comes to AI, how does an AI system know what it knows? You know, how does it gather information? How does it give it to the user? How can we audit those systems? And in turn, I make sure that people are thinking critically alongside AI and without AI so that they can still be their most unique human selves. And also, just on the end of what you were saying, so that they can use AI.

4:08Because I feel like when you look at AI as a substitute for your own brain, no matter how you're using it, you lose the ability to actually use AI effectively because you have no idea if what you're producing is actually correct or is actually, I don't even mean fact-checked, but like, is the tone of it right? Is the way it's communicating correct? Obviously the facts, all of those things. If you lose the ability to think critically, it doesn't matter how available AI is, you're not going to be able to genuinely even use it to further your career or better your work? Yeah. And I think for a lot of people, they don't realize that you need a good foundation before you use AI to amplify or multiply or to expand.

4:57So if you're already starting from ground zero, you know, you can't do, you know, zero times zero is still zero at the end of the day. Right. So I always tell people, figure out what your unique angle is, what your unique tone is. You know, I have certain phrases that when people hear a voice note from me, they're like, oh yeah, that's Shay. I mean, I know it from a million miles away. It's the same with ideas. It's the same with how you think through problems or how you creatively get to a conclusion. I think people just have to be more intentional about what makes them them. And you speak a lot in your work about anti-intellectualism.

5:30Can you talk to me about what that actually is? Yes. So anti-intellectualism is a complete disdain or disinterest of intellectuals, of expertise, of anything that doesn't immediately make sense. And there was a great Pulitzer Prize winning book that came out in 1964 called Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. And it really detailed how people started to really resist institutions and elites and anything that, you know, was sort of given from the top down. And that's expanded in modern eras because people didn't really understand what was happening in the ivory tower. I mean, I've been an academic for how long, right?

6:14You know, I've been in school for way too long, unfortunately. And I think that mysticism and, you know, not people, people not actually explaining what's happening is what's caused some people to be resistant to thinking deeply and thinking critically and questioning things. I'm not saying there's, you know, you shouldn't ever question. I think you should actually question more, but question with a desire to understand and not to reject. Right. And I think as a side point on that, that feels like a huge, it feels like it's had a huge impact on politics, which I don't necessarily want to go into because we will already speak about what we're going to speak about for so long.

6:54But like the instant you were saying that, to me, that was kind of like, oh, that helps me to understand why we've got to where we've got to in politics. because when you instantly reject the status quo or kind of have this u-turn on who you listen to and why you listen to them without questioning it with the aim of getting the right answer or landing in the right place but instead just to question if that feels like where we've got to Like it feels very hard at the moment to know what information is right, why it's right, who it's come from, where it's come from. And that doesn't seem to affect how believable it is at all.

7:44Exactly. And I think people have been so moved by emotions. You know, just because something feels right or something sounds right doesn't mean that the underlying claim or argument is right. And I think oftentimes people have confirmation bias or they have belief bias. So when something is already, you know, getting at something you want to believe, you start to ignore information that's contrary to what you already believe. Or you start to only focus on information that confirms what you believe. So it's a very natural phenomenon, but you have to be willing and open and curious enough to want to see opposing sides.

8:23And how do we increasingly do that in a world of increasing polarity? Polarity? Polarization? Is polarity a word? Wow. Slip. Made that up and made it real. But like, because I find myself, I'm a very passionate person and I'm very passionate about politics and what I believe in and what I believe in is right. I find myself doing that too like I wouldn't say I'm anti-intellectual at all in fact I'm really trying to encourage critical thinking and reading other sides and all of that however because of the amount of I guess misinformation thrown all over the place or arguments based on half facts or whatever it might be I find myself automatically rejecting the other side the second I hear anything from it for the exact same reason so how do we encourage ourselves to both engage and care about things and stand for what we want to stand for politically or otherwise whilst also understanding that in an age where there's often no right answer and it's often very fucking hard to find the right answer how do we do that it's all about existing in the world of nuance and understanding the way you come to your conclusions.

9:43So oftentimes, it's just about looking at the evidence that's right in front of you, whether it's good, whether it's bad, whether it confirms it, whether it disregards what you're saying. And I think there has to be a certain level of openness to ideas. And I always say your reading diet, your intellectual diet should compose of three main things. One is a category that focuses on expansion, growth, understanding more of yourself, of the world, you know, things you agree with. The second form is making sure that you're reading for pleasure. Because I think if you're always reading, you know, things or information that's, you know, getting you riled up, that's for the long term, not really good.

10:24But then I say the third category, and it doesn't have to be the majority of your intellectual diet, is reading opposing or challenging ideas. Understanding what evidence are they relying on? Is that evidence up to date? Are they, you know, speaking from experience or are they speaking from fact? And I think the more that you can understand the difference between fact and fiction, the more you can understand how to pick apart other people's arguments, not for the purpose of picking the person apart, but picking apart the actual argument itself, the stronger you become. Because then you know why you believe what you believe.

10:58Sure. Because you consider the opposite side. Yeah, exactly. And I always feel like maybe this isn't completely true, but I'd like to say that I'm happy with anyone believing anything as long as they know why they do and they know the genuine evidence that's led them there rather than a lot of this stuff lying around at the moment that feels half -truthed and very specifically used to make you feel a certain way about certain groups of people or whatever it might be. And do you feel like at the moment it's being framed as less and less necessary to be curious or thoughtful with AI and everything?

11:38Yeah, you know, I think because it's so easy to get a quick answer, it can be seen as frivolous or not necessary to go down rabbit holes. Sure. You know, to explore, you know, to actually follow that train of thought all the way to its end. And I think that's actually a really helpful exercise. And I don't think it's frivolous at all. I think it helps us think about the way that we're thinking. and actually you know not every detour is a distraction some detours actually help us get to our dissertation get to our destination uh as more complete and fuller human beings and actually encourage more people to take the long way sometimes you know even when i'm walking around london i know my way around london but sometimes when i just need to think for a while you know i'll take the long way and there's nothing wrong with that and i feel like that's another thing that we're missing and I'm definitely missing is the the space to think the space to formalize your own thoughts all of that because there is so much information all the time and it's easily accessible but also because our brains are so busy all the time because we're always listening to a podcast or listening to music or watching something or whatever it might be And it, like, that critical thinking and that ability to think that you were just talking about, it's definitely a muscle because I feel myself losing it.

13:04Like, me at university in a tutorial versus now, like, I feel myself lessening an ability to truly critique something and truly understand all different areas of it and whatever it might be. and I like I hate that loss and I really try and fight against it but I think that it's I mean even without AI even without social media life gets busy and but it's obviously just something that we still need to exercise and I want to talk I guess aside from politics and the media how you feel this anti-intellectualism crops up for us in like everyday decisions rather than just those kind of bigger areas? Yeah.

13:51So for a lot of people, anti-intellectualism can be a matter of your health. If you're someone who, you know, can easily just read the first page of Google, which these days have AI summaries, even though I know that they're working on fixing that when it comes to medical information, but dig a little deeper, you know, and for a lot of people, anti-intellectualism may show up in how they speak with other individuals. And I say this quite lightly because I know this is everyone's analog year, analog renaissance. They want to spend more time in community. But oftentimes we judge people before we speak to them.

14:30And I'm someone, you know, I love speaking to people, whether it's on the tube or I'm walking somewhere and things of that sort. But because we're not naturally curious, because we think we know what we already know and we can't learn something new, oftentimes we won't try something new. We won't try that new community cafe. We won't try, you know, watching a genre of a movie that we don't normally, you know, would be interested in. And I think, you know, once again, there's a real concern about the role that certain institutions have played in our lives. Think about college. You were told if you go to college, you will get a great job.

15:05And then that will lead you to long-term financial success that's shifting that's changing so that's a real concern like i don't want people to think that anti-intellectualism is like i can't critique institutions and you know i can't be mad about what the experts said please do that but do it critically do with evidence do it with the desire to see real change happen as opposed to i'm just going to reject it and not do anything and just sit here and what do you feel like the overall i guess cost of anti-intellectualism is then for people who are trying to build meaningful careers and lives understanding the fact that this is real and it's pervasive and it's it is what the next few decades are gonna look like yes the implications are so huge because at the end of the day experts whether it's people with PhDs or people with 20 30 40 years of experience they contain a level of wisdom that if you are a young person you have not accumulated yet you have to be willing to learn from them you have to be willing to at least hear them out you have to be willing to figure out how they think so that you can develop your own body of You can develop your own set of ideals and wisdoms and things that matter to your life because get it like, you know, times are changing.

16:35You know, the modern world is shifting everything so quickly. And I want people to just know that experts are not intentionally hiding anything from you. I say this as a PhD candidate. Come up to me on the street and I will tell you everything I'm researching. You know what I mean? We don't want to hide anything from you. If anything, a lot of us would love to talk to more people. And we're seeing more experts and intellectuals actually break down what's happening behind the scenes. So there's a real effort here to make sure that people actually understand what's happening and they don't just have to be told and then accept it.

17:09You know, so let's go into that then, because I mean, I've got a lot of questions from our listeners, specifically on the future of AI and what they need to be preparing for and how it's going to affect them. And a lot of these people, I mean, our core audience is 25 to 34. And therefore, it's people in the early stages of their career, a lot of whom probably don't necessarily know what their career is rather than their first few jobs or whatever it might be. And I struggle with the AI conversation a little bit at the moment because it feels like no one wants to talk about it, understandably, because of, for example, environmental impacts.

17:46And I think that's so fair enough. And at the same time, we have to battle with the reality of it that, you know, even if there's an AI bubble burst, that doesn't mean much other than for the stock market. like as in of course it has implications like of course i know that but i think we talk about this as if the ai the actual existence of ai is going to burst which i just don't personally believe like we've come to this stage i think we're going further in that direction so i want to make sure that people who listen to this podcast are prepared for what that like without scaremongering but like what what that looks like for their career what should you be prepared for how can you future proof yourself all of that so i'd first like to ask what your biggest concern is about ai at the moment wow so my biggest concern is not something that i don't think will be a concern long term okay so let me explain i underestimated how popular AI companions would be.

18:58I think as someone who, you know, I come from a humanities background. I study humans. I'm very interested in how humans are interacting with technology. I really underestimated that. But at the same time, as people are going through this analog renaissance, as they're being more intentional about human-to-human connections, as they're making sure that, you know, loneliness is not just an accepted fact. Like, okay, that's it. People are going to be lonely. There's nothing we can do. I believe that there will be ways to regulate over-reliance on AI companions. Because at the end of the day, AI companions don't have your full memories.

19:45It doesn't know what you went through in college. Maybe the bits and pieces you tell that machine. But it doesn't know your full world. And it can't experience the world at this current point in time. Only you can do that. Only you know the experience of seeing a sunset after a very long day. Only you know the experience of going to a friend's house and crying over something that was really impactful in your life. And a machine can only provide the illusion of companionship. So I'm a bit concerned about that, but I have more faith in humanity than I do in technology at this current point. So you feel like there'll be enough regulation and does that regulation come in the form of policy?

20:30Be on both sides. I think in many ways we do need stronger common sense regulation to make sure that AI chatbots are not, you know, pushing you to a crisis or making you believe something that isn't true or can, you know, potentially lead to harm. I think that's very important. Certain outputs just should not be possible full stop. Sure. Yeah. Just to protect the user. Right. And there's certain also regulations you can put in place such that, for example, if a user starts to spiral or to have a crisis, immediately send them to an actual human being that can help them. On the other side of it, I think we make an assumption that AI adoption will go on like an exponential curve.

21:15And I think a lot of people will self-regulate what they use AI for and what they don't use it for. And there's a lot of privacy concerns around that data. What I care a lot about is what's happening with that data. So, for example, are there any legal protections? If you have a conversation with an AI chatbot and you're like, you know, I don't like so-and-so in the office and I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. Can a chatbot snitch on you in court? You know, that's my concern. So far, yeah. Exactly. Like so far, literally chat GPT history has been used in all sorts of legal cases. Literally.

21:55And people aren't aware of that, right? So there's a, I think as education increases, as people understand, you know, what is going into these bots, what's being saved, how is it determining the output? Like that is going to cause people to self-regulate. They don't have patient confidentiality or whatever your therapist has. Exactly, exactly, exactly. I always tell people, you can tell these chatbots, you know, as much as you want, but you have to remember, a chatbot can't serve 15 to 20 years for malpractice. like you know so it's stuff like that where you know that's why i was quite shocked at how much people were using ai for companions because i'm like look you know why do you trust this bot it's it's not just a black box it's saving data on you yeah yeah yeah no you're so right is that like we have this kind of social understanding that you know even if it was just that and even if it was about companionship rather than a therapist for example that if i go and do something terrible to you and tell everyone all your secrets you might do the same to me whereas there's zero implication for a chatbot generally ever um I think that's really interesting um and definitely not something I thought about and it's kind of I don't know there's always this gap between like how do we use it to democratize things for example like how do we democratize therapy in a way where lots of people can't access that that type of even ability to talk about certain mental health issues like they might not ever do that with friends but they would do it with chat gpt and can't afford a therapist and all those things it's kind of it's it's a i mean it's a lot of the same issues that we had when we were going through the original tech boom of kind of democratizing things is great but there are limits and there are you know there are still things we should be careful of yeah and i think one thing i'm very interested in uh from a tech perspective is making sure that we're investing in as many privacy first apps as much as possible because you know when I think about using an app the first thing I think about is where's my data stored how will it be used if a government authority or any authority really wants access to that data what is the procedure for accessing it it's so good I'm like is this app free will it put a nice filter on my face.

24:18I mean, to be fair to you, all this comes from my research. Yeah, I'm chilling. The less I know, the better. I'm like, you can have this data as long as you put a nice filter on my face. Exactly. And, you know, honestly, I think this is the part where AI policy and regulation actually comes into play sure because not everyone is always going to have that you know first inclination to say oh you know how is my data being used like there should be protections for your data yeah it's the same with any consumer protections it's like you should be able to eat something without assuming that the nutritional values are a lie or like you should be able to i don't know but like whatever it might be like that is the assumption because we have laws in place and it is just obviously a little bit of a wild west at the moment because those laws are not in place and they take time and all of that but you know it's totally right it's like i shouldn't have to think about what happens if I download something or you use something because realistically there should be enough protections in place for me uh you know knowledgeless consumer um so that it's not inherently dangerous to just be you know downloading things or whatever but it's kind of similar to I'm you know when the internet was first around you'd kind of I constantly get viruses on my computer you know like you constantly click on things and it's like all of that it's a safer place now and you know AI will become a safer place but it is interesting because half those things I've you know never even thought about and along those lines then if you are a regular user of AI maybe less so for companionship and more so to support your work and your output and you know I know a lot of business owners who've been able to start businesses and hire way later and therefore be able to actually get a business off the ground which is hard and statistically you know rare um because they've been able to get ai support rather than or just using chat gpt or whatever it might be rather than hiring earlier um which i know has its own problems but but it's again a democratization how do we avoid ai making us think less rather than just supporting us or like taking away our brain power rather than just supporting us because i think there is this constant focus on like when are the machines going to take over and we think about that as them getting smarter rather than us getting dumber and I think a lot of the time like when I'm using AI I'm like wow yeah like if you broke right now and I needed to like fully write this for myself or whatever I fucking hope I can still do that and that's only you know a year or so into chat GPT being something that's publicly available yeah and I always recommend that people have a pretty active analog journaling practice just free write it doesn't have to have a specific product or end goal but like every morning I spend anywhere from 20 to 30 minutes just writing out my stream of consciousness and I think that gives us the muscles and the exercises we need to know that you're still creative yeah you still can come up with ideas and make connections and do pattern recognition and create something new.

27:29You still have that ability. And for a lot of people who are using AI, I love the fact that you mentioned that people are using it to amplify themselves and to compete with, honestly, some industries where they wouldn't have been able to compete before just because they can move quicker and less overhead. I think that's really important. I think for a lot of people when you use an AI chat bot you should make sure that it's questioning you because oftentimes you put in an input it does its thing and then you have an output and then you're like great yeah what's the next thing yeah but instead I always tell people include in your prompt, please know any assumptions I've made.

28:19Please let me know where someone from the opposing side would disagree with this. Help me understand how a competitor might pick this apart. And I think the more that you use AI to challenge your thinking, the more that you use it to challenge your assumptions, the better. Because I get it. Not everyone has a thinking partner. Not everyone has someone that they can call 24-7 to work through a tough business idea or work through you know how they want to move a project forward I completely get that and I think you know just like you shouldn't have yes men around you in real life whether it's friendships relationships whatever it may be your AI chatbot should also not be a yes bot yeah so it's like what I get from that is as much as you're using it to make your life easier also use it to make you think deeper yes and really understand yeah as you said your assumptions or where you might be thinking wrong or not not thinking about certain things and that yeah i think that's also just a good integration in terms of ai habits because if it's your habit every day to help but to get ai to help you write some emails or review a contract or like whatever it might be how can you also use it to help you think more and better because I I mean I think constantly about how we I think less so with AI but probably as a byproduct of it combined with social media I just like we are losing critical thinking at such a rapid rate and we have to be able to think more critically and we have to be able to develop that muscle and build that muscle and I really worry about that for us as particularly the next few generations like I worry that it's more important than ever because the amount of information and incorrect information out there and how easy it is to represent a whole argument using tiny inaccuracies or whatever it might be and it's less available than ever like I really believe that to be true and I just I don't have the answer but I know for sure that we all just need to be thinking critically like far more and it needs to be a built-in part of our kind of reactions to things like we have to stop like watching a TikTok and assuming it to be true and I think for a lot of people as skepticism grows once again I don't think there's anything wrong with skepticism I'm actually a hopeful skeptic.

30:53That's why I'm able to, you know, question so many AI systems and how it operates and how it works. But I think for a lot of people, don't let your skepticism end with just that eerie feeling. Actually interrogate it. Go down that rabbit hole. Figure out why doesn't this make sense to you? What information is missing? How can you think more deeply about this issue? Like, actually be curious and, you know, expand your, you know, worldview. Because in many ways, social media is an echo chamber. The algorithm just reinforces what you like so you can stay longer on the platform. And that's why it's important to engage with ideas and challenge yourself and to also challenge the AI outputs, you know.

31:36As much as it should challenge you, you should challenge it. Because it can create outputs that sound convincing but intellectually hollow. Oh, my ChatGPT always tells me it's like a Tuesday when it's Thursday. And I'm like, bro, like this is pretty simple stuff. I'm constantly like, babe, read the time. Like, read the time, look at the date, look at the thing. Before you send this back to me, double check. But it's true. Like, as in I probably find about, I don't know, I'd say percentage wise of times I use ChatGPT, I'd say I correct about 50 % of the time. like little facts or little bits of information and it's so easy to miss it i think it's also because we built this huge trust in like search engines and google that we're able to search something get the answer validate it see its source all of that that we've just adapted to ai in the same way and actually there's rather than it presenting you with information for you to come to your own conclusion it's presenting the conclusion and we're just not we're not good at that rigorous analysis exactly exactly and then this is why i always tell people you need to learn how to argue and i'm not saying like okay whose turn is it to do the dishes yeah i mean although get that man off the stuff but i think it's one of those things where it's like people don't even know like okay what's a claim what's a premise what's a belief what's an issue all those different things.

33:12And this is why I'm so intentional in my content to make sure I'm breaking down those basics. I'm not going to assume you know what those things are, but these are the building blocks of critical thinking. Because then once you know what these things are, you can break down bad logic. You can know when something's an ad hominem attack. You can know when something is just not adding up because it can sound once again, you know, look, I'm in academia. A lot of things sound convincing, but don't intellectually hold up. And I think the better we get at understanding those building blocks, the easier it is to spot these different fallacies and things like that.

33:47Yeah, no, I think that's completely right. And I have a question on where we're going with AI and where the companies that are building AI are going, because obviously they're all racing towards superintelligence, and that's what they're all kind of running towards, where the AI can recreate itself. that aside because okay this is a little bit of a heavy topic and like whether we're going to get there and like you know all of those different things the assumption is that we're going to get there and like we've made enough leaps and bounds in the part i say we as if i'm playing a part in i'm not i'm busy but to me it's it's assumed that we're going to get there what do you think the impact of that rather than just this kind of version one of ai era that we've had is going to be on people's careers?

34:39Like, is there anything that stands out to you as something we need to see coming down the tracks? Yes. So it seems like across the industry, people have been using different terms to denote what AGI is. So there's artificial general intelligence, which is this belief that you can create an autonomous system that can perform at the same level or better than humans at certain tasks. And then other people might use like humanistic superintelligence. So like an AI system that is more aligned with human values, it's safe, things of that sort of safe superintelligence. So a lot of it's just branding and marketing at a certain point where, you know, you want to show investors that you're trying to create an autonomous system.

35:31But I think Like what's more so important is whether or not you know how to adapt your unique memories, your unique skills, your unique experiences to the work that's ahead of you. And when you have autonomous systems, there's this assumption that everything is going to become very centralized. So this one autonomous agent is therefore going to be able to do all of your tasks and all of your work and all these different types of things. But most people don't actually know what their job is. Sure. You know, there's a research paper that came out from Microsoft, which they've long corrected. And it was like the list of careers that would be replaced by AI.

36:14And historian was like top of the list. And I'm a historian. I'm completing my PhD in history. And I laughed because I'm like, you weren't there when I was backpacking to the middle of the Indian Ocean trying to access an archive that's only open on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you actually know what I do on a day-to-day basis? Because a lot of people think it's like, oh, okay, you're just like reading books. Like recounting, like Wikipedia. Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, okay, like AI can summarize that. AI can do this, AI can do that. And don't get me wrong, there are certain tasks that, you know, AI is much better at, you know, automating and making easier and things of that sort.

36:52But when you think about it, the task of a PhD is to create new knowledge. It's to take us to a new space. And I don't think that's limited to just doctorates. Think about the creative arts. Think about when someone writes a new novel that speaks to you in such a deep way, but focuses on perennial issues. It's so much more expansive than that. And I think the more people realize their way of seeing the world, their perspectives, how they come to a text. That's why, especially, let me actually say this. In the startup world, which I'm very familiar with, and I have my own startup, people are always saying like oh I'm so afraid to share my ideas because someone's going to steal them yeah but they're not going to execute it the same way you would startups aren't an ideas game exactly business is not an ideas game yeah you know the way that I relate to another human being the way that I would sell my product is very different than someone else would and you know I want people to start differentiating themselves now don't wait for AGI sure think about how you were different from other human beings yeah and what really stands out to me there is like then if if ai is amazing at ideas and knowledge get fucking good at execution and like truly understand what execution looks like in your job what it looks like in your business what it looks like with your friends or in your life or whatever it might be like if the ideas are generally going to be covered and i don't think all of them are going to be covered because i do think you know a lot of ideas particularly in creative spaces are not formulaic they're genuinely about being able to think outside the box which kind of by definition AI is not great at but like get really good at executing following that ideation point because to me we're far further from AI replacing that than we are from some other things yeah and I think this is where I generally veer off from most of the commentary on AI is that I know what AI can do, and I also know what humans can do.

39:03And I believe humans have way more agency than what the current AI narrative is giving them credit for. Because right now it's like, okay, there's seven people in the world that are going to determine your future and there's nothing you can do. So therefore let's just all sit in a corner and just start crying. And I don't believe in that. I strongly do not believe in that. I'm a historian. I know that over time, people choose to accept or reject certain policies, certain technologies. You have agency. You can decide what the future looks like. You can shape it. And oftentimes, it doesn't take that many people to change the direction and course of something.

39:38So I want people to feel empowered to know that you can decide what the future is going to look like for your career, for your family, for your business. As much as the system is being created, there's always counter systems. As much as there's a revolution, it's a counter revolution. As much as there's a renaissance movement, there's a counter renaissance movement. And the more that you see that you have a role to play, that it's a song and dance, it's not just a top down thing you have to accept. I think the more people will actually get involved, whether you like AI or not, you know, it doesn't matter.

40:08You should at least know where the off switch is. Yeah, no, 100%. And I think that's exactly like why I wanted to have this conversation, for example, is like I've been so scared about talking about AI in lots of ways because it just feels so out of bounds but actually that's how we lose out like I'm not saying you now need to adopt it 10 times faster like that's never been what I've said but it's particularly it's specifically it's like knowing this how do we make sure our careers are safe how do we make sure we are still going to be fulfilled how do we make sure we are future-proofed and we're also not laden with anxiety constantly that we're about to be replaced by robots because that's also not helpful so i i mean i yeah i think that that's particularly helpful particularly when women missed out on a lot of the benefits of the tech boom um just with like you know it's taken a long time to even get women into the workplace and then you know they weren't necessarily where they needed to be and it's still a very long way to go but but we need to be able to at least prepare to take on this era whatever that looks like for you or as I said at least be prepared for it and you talk a lot about a renaissance mindset could you speak to me about what that really looks like in terms of kind of core skills and habits yes so I would consider myself a modern renaissance woman or maybe a post-modern but nonetheless a renaissance woman because I've had a variety of careers.

41:39You know, I was a ballerina. I did scientific research. My first academic paper is actually a neuroscience paper. No way. Yeah. People think I've like just always been, I just woke up historian. It's like, no, like I've, I've, I've had different careers. Um, I've worked in politics. I've worked in corporate, uh, I've worked in public art. Like I've done so many different things, but I did it one at a time. And I think oftentimes people hear of Renaissance thinker, Renaissance mindset. It means that they have to become a generalist. They have to dabble a little bit here, a little bit there, you know, jack of all trades, but yet master of none.

42:11For me, a renaissance mindset is someone who is not afraid to recreate themselves. It is someone who is willing to go through the process of a rebirth, whether it's of their personal development, their projects, how they see the world. They're willing to adapt their experience and expertise to create something new. And there's actually a really great book that I always recommend to people by Michael Geld, and it's called How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci, who's one of the stars of the Renaissance period. And he has a really great list of things that you can do. Curiosity, writing down how you observe the world.

42:50How do you see different patterns? Like, you know, and this is why I love actually speaking with artists, because the way that they gain inspiration, you know, from a trip to Tokyo or a trip to Morocco, and that shaped how they, you know, created this art piece. I love that because that shows that you can take the way that you observe the world and apply it to new contexts. And I want to speak quickly, I guess, with that in mind, about education and higher education specifically. But I think this applies to general kind of how we educate ourselves and how we train and all of that. Do you feel like higher education is still worth pursuing in the world of AI?

43:31And if so, or also not just in the world of AI, but in the world of us, you know, we definitely went through an era where it was seen as it had to be for everyone. And who do you think it's worth pursuing for? I still believe in the power of higher education but with a few caveats because once again I have so much empathy for people who were told that higher education was the absolute key to success you were told if you dolled out all this money that you would be guaranteed to have success and then you know you grow older and you know I was joking the other day someone I taught when I was at Harvard as a teaching fellow, he's now a millionaire.

44:22And I was like, dude, I taught you how to write. Bring me up with you, bro. Exactly. What do you mean you have this super cool AI startup, right? So you can see stuff like that and be like, wait, what's going on here? But I think ultimately institutions are slow to change and they have to figure out what is going to be the purpose of education when certain tasks are automated, when, you know, there's no such thing as a career ladder anymore. There's more so a career portfolio. I think the value of higher education is being around other curious individuals. And in some cases, you know, maybe I shouldn't say this, but, you know, I went to the University of Chicago.

45:05It's where nerds thrive. I mean, they just like, we just nerd out. I feel like I learned more outside of the classroom than I did inside the classroom. Because in a classroom, you're just trying to absorb as much information as possible. But debating someone in my dorm room about the meaning of Das Kapital, you know what I mean? That had more influence on my thinking, on my abilities. You know, being around people that challenged me, you know, being able to test out a new idea, you know, with someone that I might not necessarily agree with on 100 % of everything. But challenged me to think more deeply.

45:42And it's the social aspect of learning that I think people forget. Which I also think not only people forget, but I think that institutions are not placing importance on. And therefore, like I look at some of my friends' university courses and they used to complain about them at the time where it's like you're sitting in a lecture hall and all you're doing is learning by rote. And there's zero discussion about it. And then you replicate it and it's like, or regurgitate it. it's like that's not that's well it's learning in a way but it's not like what's going to actually help whereas I felt very fortunate to be at a university that based essentially all like that was the basis and then all of its tuition essentially was around tutorials which were generally learning to argue about things um and I feel like most institutions particularly in the UK from what I've heard I've only been to one um but like do not place value on that and therefore you know I think the university experience personally is incredibly useful for learning to be an adult um but with most institutions it feels like they like if that is what we're getting out of education and if that is what we can do to set ourselves aside from or apart from AI and to further ourselves in our career, then like where is that formalized in learning?

47:08And in the UK with the university system, I'd actually say pretty much nowhere. Like you can't guarantee that if you go to university. Yeah. And this is where I tell people it is so important to build a portfolio. We are slowly moving into an AI-first economy where employers will start to care more about what you can do, not just where you went to school. I say this as one of the most privileged people out there. Went to University of Chicago, went to Harvard, did everything right, did all the meritocratic climbing that I could do. I leaned in so hard I almost fell over, you know. And as someone who went through climbing that career ladder, and my generation, honestly, is probably the last generation to ever climb a career ladder.

48:07I encourage everyone now to start building portfolios. What are you interested in? What are those small projects that you can start to build together to show employers that you actually have a very unique mind. Even when I'm scrolling on Instagram and I look at different creators, I'm like, wow, like the way your mind works is so beautiful. I would have never thought to bring these things together to create the skit or to, you know, write this informative reel. Like that is beautiful. And you have to keep a personal archive portfolio, whatever you want to call it, of your particular genius. because once again, you have unique neurons, you know, firing in your brain and you need to lean into that because when everything looks the same, when everything sounds the same soon, you know, with over-reliance on AI and you're not editing the output, what makes you different?

48:57One thing that really stands out to me there as well is like, we know that there's a huge hiring crisis for graduates, particularly when it comes to AI, because candidates are using AI to apply and companies are using AI to select and therefore thousands more people are applying than usual and the parameters are completely different or the criteria are completely different from what they would usually be because it's just too essentially the techs arguing with each other and like the techs applying to to the tech's job or whatever and they're kind of going back and forth and I feel like what really stands out there is that there's no doubt that's going to increase Like businesses love to save money and they love to, you know, streamline things.

49:39So there's going to be more and more AI hiring as well. And therefore, how can you show you are different from all of the other people who've had the exact same three last jobs as you? or the exact like a lot of roles come from the same paths and they come from the same like movement from coordinator to executive to manager like whatever it might be and I feel like that really stands out I've never heard that advice of kind of build a portfolio and I'd love to know what your specific advice is there for someone who is at a corporate job for example so it's not super it's not necessarily creative there's not a lot of flexibility how do you build a portfolio when probably you're not allowed to or don't have time to have an extra job and therefore need to somehow manage that to be beyond your job role or show specifically what you're interested in outside of your job role that still could be connected but you know it's hard to formalize that like how do you build that portfolio absolutely and I really want to just share how much empathy and compassion I have for people who are graduating during this AI transition because you know a lot of the work and the advocacy I do when it comes to AI upskilling and reskilling is convincing c-suite execs and people who work in the corporate world to invest in new career talent pipelines.

51:14Because you don't want to hire them now, but in five to 10 years, when you no longer have middle managers, when people start to retire, you don't have a pipeline. You won't have workers. And once again, there's this assumption that there's going to be an exponential AI adoption. Okay, what if it's not exponential? What if actually we pull back a little bit? And this is why I always say you have to actually read the studies. Is there an actual ROI on implementing AI? All the people who fired people for the reason of it being AI, in some cases they just went to fire people and they're just using AI as a reason.

51:54Is there actual return on investment? Because a lot of those companies actually hired humans back. You know, so this is why, you know, I'm very intentional about saying like, OK, please, like, let's be intentional about this AI transition so that we can upskill and reskill them on the job. Now, for people who are already on the job, people who are already working in corporate or they work in entrepreneurship, I always say keep a journal or log of your thinking process. because what a lot of people don't know is that an AI chatbot can't really reason. It gives you the illusion of reason. It gives you the illusion of thinking.

52:33But your unique way of coming to a conclusion, because I love the example that you gave when it comes to Google search. With an AI search engine, you're just being given the conclusion. You don't know the thought process. You don't know what information it consulted. You don't know what its chain of reasoning was. But you know how you think. You know how you tackle this task at work. You know which workflows you implemented so that things are more efficient and that you understand how to get to your goals in a more meaningful way for both the client and for the company. Keep a log of your thinking patterns.

53:11And that in and of itself is a portfolio. You know, it's not just about final products, because I think, you know, oftentimes people are like, OK, I produced this report, but how did you do it? Document that. And it seems so frivolous. It's like, OK, document my thinking process. But the more you know how you think, the more you know how unique and irreplaceable you are. Not least because executives are presented with so much every day that we know that, for example, it's better off presenting them with a conclusion rather than all the working or whatever it might be. So actually showing that you're the type of person who did all the work for something, analyzed all of that different information and suggested the following outcome and presented it in that way.

53:55That's a very useful employee in a way that actually just doing a lot of things is not, I mean, it's also useful and also necessary, but yeah, feels less persuasive for who I want to have the job, especially versus AI. I think that's really valuable. And I think that one of the things I just, I guess, wanted to add to that when it comes to like portfolio is it feels like to me portfolio doesn't need to just be experience. It can also be learning. and the reason I say that is because you know when we've spoken to people about AI on this podcast again and again the main things that have come back are like you have to be an adaptable person like to survive in a career in the age of AI you've got to be adaptable you've got to be good at change you've also got to be good at learning and like learning demonstrates adaptability and demonstrates ability to change like I know that if I was presenting two CVs and they had the exact same job roles and the exact same success in their roles or whatever it might be.

55:05And one of them, you know, had also done X, Y, Z courses on the side to be able to upskill. It's like, yeah, well, great. Well, good people will come with me all the time. Like I'm never going to get my company down to, you know, just me or whatever. Like good people will always be needed. And I think a lot of that comes from understanding how you can upskill. So, you know, like the best people in my teams at work, I know that whether they were doing this job or another job, they'd do a great job because they would learn how to do it, learn the decision making processes that make them good at that job, and then be able to execute that.

55:41Yeah. And I think that's the beautiful part about the open internet is that you can pretty much learn anything at a click of a button. Sure. And it's all about adapting what you're learning in an experiential way, you know, so building that portfolio is also about like, hmm, how can I apply this thing I just learned to maybe building a workflow or an app or a system that makes my life easier? Because nine times out of 10, if you're suffering from a problem, somebody else is too. So if you're able to solve that through what you learned, that is valuable and you're doing it your way. And I think this is, you know, what I want people to feel like they can use specifically generative AI for, is to solve real problems you have.

56:31And I think, you know, the problem with the way AI was rolled out is that it was rolled out so haphazardly, you know. People were just using it to create quote unquote AI slop, which is just like prompt, input, output, put it on the internet, you know, as opposed to people who are using it more critically or more thoughtfully or, you know, other generative AI use cases. And I think because people have already seen so much slob, I mean, come on, like if you just met a person and before you met them, you read like 20 articles that says that they're a horrible person, you're not going to want to talk to them, right?

57:09So it's the same thing with generative AI. If the first thing you saw is people producing deep fakes and people lying and cheating. The LinkedIn comments. The LinkedIn comments. Just regurgitate your posts. Just be like, thank you for that. And it's like, who's that? That doesn't sound like you. Exactly. You know, you have people who are, you know, giving off the illusion of expertise without having put in the work. And you put in the work. You built your businesses. You created, you know, that content that attracted followers. You put in the work to make sure that you are a good person to your team and to the people that you work with.

57:48You've built that. So for someone to come along and to say like, you know, I can get 2 million followers and I can build a business and I can do this without putting in the work. You're like, OK, wait, hold on. Like that's an affront to skill and craft and expertise. And that goes back to anti-intellectualism. Right. So I want people to feel like, no, it's not just a matter of producing AI slot. That's a choice by individuals and individual users. But you can build something that actually solves problems. You know, think about your normal day to day process. You know, you don't want a system that's going to fully replace you.

58:22You want something that can actually solve these micro problems that are happening in your life so that you can enjoy life more fully. I want to talk quickly about information diets and I guess how we've come to a lot of these places in terms of anti-intellectualism and maybe our loss of critical thinking and all of that. And the first thing that comes into my mind is a little bit of doom scrolling. And I'd love to ask from your point of view and from your kind of research background, why is doom scrolling so addictive? Yeah, you know, I actually want to point to Tristan Harris and the Center for Humane Technology, because they do a lot of great work on the ways that our dopamine pathways have been hacked so that we stay on social media platforms and other addictive platforms.

59:10but I want to look at it from a humanistic perspective because when you think about it people had like the loneliness epidemic has been growing exponentially for quite a while you know the past five to six years think about all the things we went through we went through a pandemic we went through economic crises we went through you know so many political crises uh and now we're being told ai is going to take everyone's job like you know that's a lot Exactly. That's a lot to go through. The girl needs to sleep. Exactly. Back to back to back to back. And I think that that that stress of wanting to stay informed, like, OK, what's happening?

59:47What's this? And, you know, it doesn't help that there's a lot of people who are sort of, you know, inflaming certain situations so that you stay hooked to your phone so that, you know, you also look for escape through your phone. And I think I want to acknowledge those different trends because I don't want anyone to feel guilty about doom scrolling. There's a way that it's been biologically engineered, socially engineered. And I don't think guilt is the best pathway for transformation. Instead, I always say you need to find something more appealing and attractive than your phone. so maybe that's you know being intentional about creating a new friend group that you can turn to instead of turning to instagram or whatever you do scroll i mean there's a variety of things people do scroll um it's about getting so immersed in a book that you look forward to reading that yeah after a long day instead of scrolling no i think that's such a good point i've never heard it put that way and it's so true like I've had a really good few books back to back that I've been reading and last year I was reading like a lot of the same genre and I think I just like burnt myself out a little bit on that reading specifically and like I switched to I just like read a really good thriller last week and I could not put that down like I genuinely could not put it down and I was walking around literally I did my makeup one morning like reading my book like on my kindle and I was like you're taking this too far um but I just thought I was like god I should just read thrillers all the time because actually it's really hard to find something more exciting than your phone because that's the way it's been programmed like that's literally the benchmark of success for a social media app is will they ever put this down like can they spend five hours a day on it but it's so true and I think that we've also got to inject more joy into those areas And that feels like a fun way of solving this is like, how do I find more fun elsewhere and develop things that don't just like keep my hands busy, which I'm definitely known to do as well.

1:01:53Like I've started doing a Sudoku in front of the TV rather than like being on my phone as well, which I know is terrible. um but it's like rather than that like genuinely something that you jump to do and allow yourself to get the dopamine from it like allow yourself to feel sickeningly excited about like seeing your friends or whatever it might be but i think that's such good advice and it also shows specifically why it's so hard to do because how am i meant to find something more exciting than this thing that a trillion dollar, in some cases, like company, has specifically put in front of me to hold my eyes for as long as possible.

1:02:35And that is hard, but you're totally right. It's doable. We just need to be reading thrillers all the time, basically. Yeah. And, you know, I love everything you said because once again, I'm all about making sure people feel like they have agency. Like you don't have to, you know, believe that everything is predetermined, that you have no say, that you, you know, just have to accept everything that's being told to you. It's like, oh, you can shape the future. And I don't want to put an overemphasis on individual behavior over what companies are doing because companies engineered this. It's not your fault that it became that addictive.

1:03:14And I think it's the same when we're just talking about AI in general. You know, sometimes people will be like, OK, I mean, you know, do you know what this AI system is doing or the environmental impact of this AI and things of that sort? But I always say, you know, OK, now you made this person feel extremely guilty. For example, this is coming from someone who was vegetarian for seven years. I watched a documentary that said it was my fault that the climate is falling apart. Yeah, so you can. Yeah, exactly. So I took that personally and, you know, I became vegetarian for like, you know, seven years.

1:03:43And I think I don't know how helpful it is to put too much focus on individual behavior. Instead, it should be like, OK, how can we make sure that we're regulating these data centers? How can we make sure that no permits are issued if there's a release of toxic chemicals? How can we make sure that the water is completely recycled or there's alternative sustainable ways to make sure that these systems are running? Like, you know, get into the specifics. Yeah, what screams out to me there is like it's another example of like the onus being placed onto individuals versus like billionaires. And it is just a, I mean, that's a recurring factor, particularly with anything to do with the climate crisis.

1:04:27And that's not to say we don't each individually have abilities to change things like also coming from someone who was a vegan for seven years. Like as in, you know, like as in we clearly believe that we can do our part and that that is important. At the same time, I don't want to be defeatist and I don't think we should ever think that, you know, it's the same as thinking like my vote doesn't count as one person. Like, of course it does. But it is a distraction from the fact that the onus of this should be on regulation and on the companies so that we can still have a world to use AI on. Exactly.

1:05:04And I think you said he said it so perfectly where it's like, OK, let's make sure people feel like they know what the next step is. Show up at your local meeting. Tell them you do not want any data center that emits these chemicals, that poisons the water, that does these things. There are actual actions you can do. And I don't think it's helpful to guilt trip or to make people feel useless because then you create the very conditions that allow these companies to make decisions that are contrary to what you want to do. There are real things you can do. And I say this as someone who's deeply invested in AI policy to make sure that, you know, these systems are being built just because it's the way it's always been done.

1:05:50You know, because people love comparing like, oh, you know, this emits more, this emits less. If my best friend suffered an asthma attack from what was being emitted from a data center, that's one person too many. So I fully acknowledge that. I fully know that, you know, it's not just statistics. It's not just numbers. And there are real people being impacted by this. And that's why I always say we have to be very specific about the critique. Because if we're not specific, you feel like you can't do anything. Name the company. Which company is doing this? Which regulation are they exploiting? Who's approving these permits?

1:06:27Add specificity so that it's not just like, oh, it's ruining the environment. I can't do anything. No, there's something you can do if you're specific about how these systems are running. this is why you need to learn about how ai actually works and whether you pro or anti yeah or you're in the middle and that is the exact nuance that we discussed at the beginning as well is it's like that's where it shows up rather than every single tiktok or post or whatever being like this is bad this is bad this is bad therefore don't talk about it don't use it don't all of these things it's like you're in an echo chamber let's do something about it let's get as you say specific on what we can do but at the same time the demonizing the guilt tripping is doesn't feel like the most effective solution given the fact that whether you want to or not you're going to be using ai literally by just using google or by taking a flight or by using any company ever now so it's like we gotta do bigger things um like even use if you're using google maps like you're You just don't know who you are.

1:07:34And that's what I keep telling people. AI is moving from just being a product, just being a tool. It's now becoming infrastructure. There are companies that are deeply invested in making sure that generative AI, machine learning, you know, whichever area of the system is deeply embedded into every hardware, every software, every system. It's the invisible layer that is now undergirding everything that we do. And this is why I always say people should be as informed as possible so that you can decide, because at a certain point, generative AI may become the default. You know, because I always I always tell people this.

1:08:24At what point did apples stop being organic? Because throughout all of human history, you go through the normal agricultural process and you get an apple. But then at a certain point, industrial agriculture became so mainstream that apples were grown in genetically modified ways. They were grown in conventional ways and they stopped being organic. So much so that we started to need labels not for what is conventionally grown but for what's organic. And because, once again, there's an effort to make generative AI an entire system, we're going to get to the point where it's not actually helpful to know if something's AI-generated or not.

1:09:11Yeah, sure, because it's going to be the standard. No, I think that's a really, really interesting point of view. And I think that it gives a lot more color to the overall question, which I think that we sometimes miss in just being, I don't think deliberately obtuse, but kind of so black and white about things rather than understanding the nuance and what we're actually up against versus a few people using chat GPT to do their shopping list. Back on the kind of information diets element, one thing I'm always back and forth about is I like to be very informed and I like to be, I feel like it's my duty to be in the know and understanding things that are going on in the world.

1:09:56At the same time, information diet-wise, that's not always the healthiest. And I understand coming from a huge position of privilege that I almost feel like, well, if people can go through those things, then I need to know about them because that's the least I can do. you know which I generally agree with but I also you know I don't think it's good for us to be looking at the news every day definitely not first thing in the morning I don't think it's good for us to have constant BBC notifications basically telling you the world's blowing up so what's that difference and where is that line between keeping informed and being like a caring citizen and you know someone who cares about morals and how people are being treated and what's going on and all of that and empathy versus just being overwhelmed yeah you know i i think a lot of it is splitting it into two separate things there's consumption and then there's processing When you're constantly receiving so much information, you're consuming.

1:11:11But imagine just like stuffing your face with as many sandwiches as possible and not actually processing it.

1:11:23Okay, let's imagine something else. But let's say you're just, you know, stuffing yourself and you never actually take the time to process and digest. And that's how I see notifications, information, doom scrolling, where you're consuming, consuming, consuming, and you're not actually processing. And I often say that I think we're genuinely moving from the age of information to the age of interpretation because there's such a volume of information. You can get whatever you want at your fingertips, but you still need people that can help you interpret what's happening. You know, and I say this as someone who's a Ph.D.

1:12:03candidate. You know what I mean? I still have moments where, you know, for example, I was like, I just put out something on threads. I was like, is there an economist here that can tell me whether or not I should be worried about the recent announcements in terms of the Federal Reserve? You know, stuff like that where it's like I'm receiving so much information. You know, I don't know what's important, what's not important. Can someone make sense of this for me? And I think that goes back to, once again, why it's so important to understand who you follow, where you're getting your information from, knowing that experts still matter, knowing that people who have experience still matter.

1:12:37And then that makes sure that you're not just, you know, have an inflamed nervous system every time you receive a new piece of information. I always say I have like a, I have a, you know, this sounds weird to say, but like I have like benchmarks for worry. So there's so many great intellectuals and experts and journalists and people that I follow that I'm like, you know, they're really good at processing information, interpreting things, making sure people can understand it. When they're worried, then I'll be worried. Sure. You know, if they start going like, OK, you know, then I'm like, OK, wow, needs to be, you know, you know, a little bit on that, you know, and then that makes sure that, you know, I'm not walking around, you know, on edge.

1:13:23Every five seconds. Yeah. No, I think that's very valuable. And I think on top of that, like, I love long reads and I love discursive kind of essays or articles or whatever it might be. And I think I kid myself that, like, because I love those, that I need to be up to date with everything all the time. And it's like I cannot open my phone every morning and it'd be like, look like World War III is about to start. And I know that's a privileged standpoint. But at the same time, let's keep our nervous system intact. And I guess along that same point, but also with regards to social media, what's one thing that you feel like we can actually all do to protect our attention span and protect our ability to, as you say, digest information and be able to, you know, concentrate on things, whether online or offline.

1:14:20when our ability to do that is being zapped by the second by these social media companies? I think the number one tool that has worked for me, and I say this as someone who's writing a dissertation, I have a startup, I'm creating content, all these different types of stuff. You have to deconstruct your phone. Because your phone is a device that can do multiple things. You can pay a bill on it, you can respond to that text message, you can scroll on Instagram you can watch the latest TV show all those different kinds of things what I do is I keep social media apps on my iPad because I don't take my iPad anywhere so that thing is tethered to my apartment so whenever I need to check Instagram whenever it has to happen on my iPad financials banking everything always happens on my desktop I don't want to be stressed in the middle of the street you don't need to know what's in my bank Yeah, exactly.

1:15:18That was cash. That was cash. Look at the business cash flow. Oh, we got to do, you know, that's stressful. I don't want to look at that while I'm on the tube. So that only happens on my desktop. And I think because we've centralized so much into our phones, that's how when you have one intention, let me respond to that email, you end up in this loop. Doing like a full day's work 50 years ago. Exactly. And this is why I tell people just deconstruct your phone. I mean, there's, I mean, now as, you know, I call it the nostalgia economy. As the nostalgia economy is growing and more and more people are wanting to get retro tech, you see that people are getting like MP3 players.

1:15:59People are getting physical cameras again. People are investing in just like deconstructing all the aspects of their phone that has been centralized. And it's good, you know? Yeah, this is why, like, I much prefer, like, my Oura Ring to an Apple Watch. It's like, I don't want to know when my emails are coming in from my fucking watch. Like, don't tell me I have an email. I'd really rather not know. Like, why? Like, I'm checking in for the time, not my fucking biggest problem today. I just, like, this constant obsession with making everything as connected as possible is something that I just think has happened without us even noticing.

1:16:35and then we're just like why like why the fuck do i need to know that right now and it i mean it's no wonder all of us are in fight or flight because we're literally one notification away from like being out our heads anxious and it's just yeah it's not healthy and then it also feeds back in because it makes me think well that's we're all so burnt out like i genuinely believe we're more burnt out than any generation before us because of this information diet and because the way we're relaxing is actually by filling our brains with more shit and just like being unable to get out of this like lab rat doom scroll cycle it's it just goes around in circles because that's in turn what's making us want to think less critically even though we know that if we actually did we would get a different feeling from our brain and all of that like you get that more sustained better kind of dopamine hit but it's all cyclically related and it's just yeah it's the Yeah.

1:17:34And, you know, I think part of taking back our attention is a way of taking back agency. Because what I worry about is not only the outsourcing of our thinking, but the outsourcing of everything that makes us us. You know what I mean? Like we've given so much data to companies in exchange for convenience. And I think now, and this is part of the reason why I started researching AI more deeply is because I want to know how can I get the benefits and limit the risks. So this is why I'm very heavily invested in privacy first AI startups. I'm very invested in companies that make sure your data is locally stored and not stored on a cloud or a server.

1:18:24This is why I'm so invested in, you know, AI systems that can run on your laptop. So you don't actually need to send out stuff to a data center. Like, you know, these are things that I only learned by being involved in the process of like, okay, how does this technology actually work? How is it going to impact my life? How is it going to impact my community? Because like I say, for every movement, there's a counter movement. And they're both studying each other. And I think that's why I want people to feel empowered because I have a pretty nuanced perspective on AI, which, you know, typically doesn't do well on the Internet because people want extremes and they want me to say, and it's like, no, like.

1:19:03The head for engagement goes ahead. Exactly. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, I'm an academic, so, you know, I'll be a little bit more nuanced. But, you know, I always tell people you can't change the way something's done if you don't know how it's done. Yeah. No, that's so true. So I want people to feel excited. I want people to feel empowered. I want people to feel like they have agency and that they don't just have to accept every narrative that's out there. Yeah. Thank you for this conversation. No, not at all. You've been absolutely incredible. I feel like I could talk to you all day.

1:19:30But before we end, I'd love to know what the best piece of advice is that you've ever been given. Ah, yes. The best piece of advice I've been given is from my mom. And I always say my mom is like a well of wisdom that multiple people have gone to to draw water from because she's a very important person in my community back home. And one thing my mom has always taught me is actually two things. But the first thing is life is about direction. It's not about speed. Because oftentimes you can feel like, oh, you know, this person is doing this so well and look how much they did it. A PhD takes a very long time.

1:20:13But it makes a significant contribution. So if I was so worried about, oh, you know, this is taking too long. It's about the direction that I'm going in. And I think, you know, if you focus so much on speed, you still have to go back anyway and then go to the new direction. So there's that. And the second thing that my mom always taught me is that you have to listen to people. no matter how far you go in life, no matter what position you occupy, no matter what impact you have, listen to people. And that's been very helpful for me as someone who does research on AI. You know, I can be immersed.

1:20:53I mean, I was immersed in like 20 papers this morning, just going at it, at it, at it, at it. And then I still go on social media and I say, how are you using this AI system? How is this impacting your relationships? How often do you use ChatGPT? That's important. And the more I listen to people, the more I can speak to them in a way that makes them feel heard, that makes them feel seen, that makes them feel like they understand what's going on. And that's my way of combating anti-intellectualism. It's to let you know that while I'm doing the research, I'm also meeting you where you're at and making sure that you feel like you have a say.

1:21:30And it's not just a bunch of elites sitting in a tower determining the future. So those two things are the most important. Thank you so much. You've been incredible. And yeah, I feel like this has been a discussion that I've wanted to have for a long time. So thank you so much. I'm just so happy to be here. I can literally talk to you for hours. You should be my thinking partner. That's what this should be. That's my validation for the year. I need to start taking notes. You've taught me so much. Thank you. Thank you so much.

1:22:07Bye.