383. Burning Up, Frozen Out — Men, Menopause, and the Midlife Marriage

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1:05Joe Warner: Welcome to You Are Not Broken, the podcast that challenges everything we've been taught about midlife, hormones, and sexuality. I'm Dr. Kelly Kasperson, board-certified urologist, author, and a leading voice in women's sexual and hormone health. Enjoy the show. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the You Are Not Broken podcast today. It's a very exciting day because we have both authors, Joe Warner and Rob Kemp here, for their book, Burning Up, Frozen Out. We're talking about men and menopause and midlife. And you guys are actually the second in my series of men coming on and talking about why the hell men should care.

1:38Joe Warner: And feel free to swear about this because it's sometimes a swearable topic. Welcome to the podcast.

1:43Rob Kemp: Thank you, Terry. Thank you so much for having us. I'm really excited about this. Yeah, it's something that, I mean, we've been banging the drum for a little while now. And it's so lovely to get the opportunity to speak to your audience and hopefully get a few men more on board with the perimenopause conversation. Yeah.

1:59Joe Warner: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's 50 % of the population that outlives their ovaries, right? If we live long enough. And I think we're so far behind just in women understanding what this is that sometimes we're like, that's a lot of work, let alone let's make sure everybody's staying caught up to this. I mean, you guys came from like the fitness world. You guys have not been in healthcare with menopause. Tell me like your careers to date and then how did you kind of pivot to think that this was worth spending some years on?

2:27Rob Kemp: So I go first really quickly, Rob. Our background is not massively dissimilar, to be honest. We both come from consumer magazines, men's magazines for me. So I was the editor-in-chief of Men's Fitness magazine for five or 10 years, worked in very much in the coalface of communicating health and wellness to men. And I thought, I think like a lot of guys in that space, I knew everything about health and wellness, but only if you're a man. I had this massive blind spot about women's health at all and very much was guilty of that women are small men mindset and what works for men works for women as well.

3:00Rob Kemp: And Rob and I had known each other on and off for the years. Rob actually gave me my first ever work experience placement at Men's Health magazine. So we'd kept in contact. And when I had an idea to write this book, Rob was my first port of call as someone who's written extensively about fatherhood and parenting as well. It seemed we could make a pretty good team where Rob was already a certain way along the journey of supporting his partner, where I was very much at the tentative first steps. Isn't that right, Rob? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, that was it, Joe. And I think, Kelly, when I spoke to you last time, when researching the book, I was kind of keen to tap into the fact that I was very much coming from it after 10 years after my wife first started experiencing perimenopause.

3:42Rob Kemp: Joe's come into it from a different age and also a different situation. Yeah, I met Joe through, I was at Men's Health magazine in the UK back in the early 2000s. Joe came in as doing what we call work experience over here and we kind of kept in touch as we were both working in that realm going forward and echoing what Joe said really. I knew a lot about Men's Health but very little about my wife until she started going through anxiety issues, panic attacks, feeling like she was going to have a heart attack on the train home and not get home to see us. And the experiences we were having with her going to the GP at no point were questions asked, but it was in the right direction to talk about the menopause.

4:27Rob Kemp: So when I first, when Joe first spoke to me about putting this foot together, I was just kind of reliving that experience and the impact it had on our relationship back then, because we did not know it was perimenopause and nor did the medical professionals we spoke to to begin with. So it was demystifying stuff for me from a man's angle which appealed to me about doing this. And also just looking at ways, especially around communication in relationships between couples at this time, what we could get from people like yourself and the various other experts and the men and women we spoke to to try and offer up some kind of help, advice, service, not just for husbands and partners, but for sons, male colleagues, male employers, male employees of women during menopause and perimenopause.

5:19Joe Warner: I think the two main stereotypes, just like societal stereotypes, is number one, that it's funny. Like, oh, hot flash is funny. And not remembering something is funny. and it's just this very big dismissal. And then I think the second myth is not understanding that this is an absolute loss of hormones to the level of, let's take your testicles, let's take them off and then let's think it's funny. Right? Like when you switch the paradigm like that, you're like, that's actually really kind of a ridiculous thing. What myths or stereotypes do you guys see or continue to see that's kind of like the zeitgeist of what this actually is?

5:59Rob Kemp: I think for me, Kelly, I talk to a lot of men about this now. And I think, as you rightly say, men typically fall into one of three camps, which I call the ostrich, head in the sand, hoping it will blow over and just will get better, which obviously never works because you finally bring your head back out and your whole family's gone, essentially, right? There's then the comedian. And I think sometimes the comedian is actually almost well-intentioned. It's trying to bring humor, maybe not trying to make it too serious. I think there is sometimes some decent tendencies in the comedian, but ultimately it's dismissive and it pushes your partner away.

6:32Rob Kemp: And then the third one, which I think is the enduring stereotype that I get a lot of nodded heads whenever I'm talking to people about this is the fixer. People go into, right, problem, fix it, problem, fix it. And that's great if you've got a leaky drain pipe, but if we're dealing with perimenopause and the uncertainty that that can bring, fixing it again, it's that disconnect between a good intention and terrible execution. We see it time and time again. and I think the biggest revelation for me at the start of researching the book was either lack of women who have got any idea about what's actually going on and obviously that's the big issue we need to tackle but then also the the male angle I want to believe and Rob and I talk about this a lot it's not a lack of empathy it's a lack of education men want to support they're just lacking initially the knowledge and then the vocabularity and then the confidence and that's what we're trying to do in the book.

7:24Rob Kemp: Here's the little bit of what you need to know. You don't need to be an expert in follicle stimulating hormone. You don't need to be discussing that over dinner. But what you do need to know is that there is a hormonal storm going on here. And it's incredibly frightening for your partner. And your job isn't to fix it. It's to be in the ride with her. And I think a lot of men, when we say that to them, you can almost see them relax a little bit because they're feeling pressure. They feel like they've got to fix something. If you tell them you don't have to fix, you've got to listen. You've got to learn to listen again.

7:53Rob Kemp: And you've got to learn to pick up more of the domestic load, take more of the play. All the stuff we talk about, it's all simple. There's no grand gestures. It's about showing up and listening because that's what true support looks like.

8:05Joe Warner: Yeah. I think there's another group, and maybe this is the ostrich, of maybe this little angry, just like, I wish this wasn't how it was. Like kind of the denial or almost like wanting it not to be a hormone thing and just wanting it to be a personality thing that like she should just fix. So I don't know if that's a fourth thing or a combo of the ostrich compared with the fixer. But it's like, there's this like, just fix it. I wish it wasn't like this.

8:33Rob Kemp: And you know, I think that actually taps into a lot of people don't like change. They don't want things to be different because they've got used to it being a certain way. And I think that's a little bit of naivety, a bit of wishful thinking because we are all changing all the time, right? We're not the same people we were when we first got together with each other. and I think that that kind of oh I wish you would just be like this again it's it's the fear of the change but actually it's not fear of change it's fear of uncertainty you don't know why the change is happening you don't know why this is happening and I think that's where the knowledge is so important Kelly because if you understand a little bit of the mechanism of what's going on it's not so scary you can name what's happening you can talk about what's happening and suddenly that change becomes something you can embrace instead of running away from yeah we also tried to emphasize the element of what's going on in men's lives in midlife, particularly from the hormonal point of view, but also because you're in a relationship where quite often this thing starts to strike when maybe your children are going to be maybe leaving home and your parents are getting older and a little more freeler.

9:35Rob Kemp: And there's so many things going on within your life and you are maybe at kind of the peak of your career for both the men and women in that relationship that quite often this can get almost put on the back burner it's like okay we've got so many other things going on we're just going to accept this instead of taking that opportunity to actually talk things through and and that did come across a lot we spoke to a couple of relationships experts in particular and they said i'll have men come in here and say to me she's not the woman i married and um they'll say well you're not the guy she married you know things have changed for you as well and it's up to you two guys to kind of find your way through so So yeah, that's something that came across with a lot of the research and interviews as well.

10:14Rob Kemp: I think it is that perfect storm, isn't it? Of when perimenopause hits, it is everything else is going on. And so many couples I spoke to sort of gave the impression of we're less a romantic couple. We're the joint CEOs of a logistics company.

10:27Joe Warner: Yeah, the CEO of a failing company or the CEO of like, we've got massive net worth. We've got a big company, right? Like no matter what stage the company is in, it's a problem.

10:36Rob Kemp: Absolutely. And we're so used to sort of the other person being around and we take them for granted. Well, you know, it's tough, but they won't go anywhere. And the amount of men where the relationship breaks down and they're almost surprised, like, where's this coming from?

10:51Joe Warner: And I feel bad stereotyping. I always want to at least acknowledge when I stereotype. But by and large, men are very clueless about it. And I think that's why your book's so helpful is like, you don't have to be clueless about it.

11:05Rob Kemp: Yeah, absolutely. And it is that sense of shock because they're not paying attention to the small things. And I think that disconnect that can build. And the fundamental issue, I think, here is women's experience and the man's perception are sometimes so disaligned because, and I'm not making excuses for men here, Kelly, at all, but some of the symptoms are very, very hard for us to get our head around. They're hard for anyone to get their head around if you're not experiencing. I always think about the burning mouth or the insects crawling under the skin. I think that's where some of the dismissiveness and jokiness comes from.

11:38Rob Kemp: It can't be that bad. It can't be that bad because we're not experienced.

11:41Joe Warner: And that's not really happening because there's no insects on your skin, right? So it's like this dismissal of something.

11:46Rob Kemp: You downplay, dismiss. And then actually, we really do. We don't go too deep into the hormones in the book. It's really a top line of what men need to know. But the key point is you don't have to understand what's going on. You just have to believe what's going on. And once you make that adjustment to just believing that it's happening, a lot of that sort of everyday relationship friction can sort of dissipate because she feels believe. You're being more supportive simply by believing. And I think that's a really important first step is just not minimizing the experience and just being there and believing what's happening.

12:19Joe Warner: Yeah, I think it's very interesting. I was talking to somebody else about women, whether they choose to have children or not, have that experience of like, this is different than what it was before. Same with breastfeeding. Like women have chunks of change in their life that men don't experience. And perimenopause and menopause is yet another one of them. This podcast is sponsored by Jones Road. I like to take care of my skin, but I don't like the whole cover up makeup routine. I like things fast and fresh. So when I found Jones Road Beauty's Miracle Balm, it genuinely fit the bill for my lifestyle and skin.

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14:16Joe Warner: All of Explore's adventures are 100 % human-made. Their tour leaders have actually stayed at that family-run guest house that isn't even online. They've eaten at the neighborhood restaurant the locals love and know the trail you'd never find on your own. Your vacation should feel uniquely yours, not like it was generated from the same prompt everyone else entered. That's the difference a human touch makes. Explore Worldwide's trips are created by real destination experts and led by tour leaders who actually know the places they recommend. They handle everything so you can relax, stay curious, and experience something genuinely memorable.

14:54Joe Warner: This is your time. Demand more. Visit exploreworldwide.com and don't just travel. Explore. but they're like oh yeah well i was pregnant and then i wasn't i was breastfeeding and then i wasn't and now i'm perimenopause and before i wasn't like women are very like just by development of our bodies we have these chunks of experience right and and i think that's where men tend to like dig in of like i don't like change i want everything to stay the same and women are like but it doesn't because i had twins and then i didn't and then i wasn't pregnant and women are almost more like fluid with this happening because we've already had really radical changes in our bodies and in our life, whereas men never have experienced any of that.

15:36Joe Warner: And so it's once again where they're like, let's stay the exact same the way we've always been.

15:41Rob Kemp: I think caught up in that as well is with the other life experiences you've mentioned, typically take pregnancy, you are following a very strict order pace of what happens. You know what to expect. You know what's coming next. And then obviously perimenopause where a billion women are now going through perimenopause or menopause globally. Every single one of those is having a completely unique experience. So when men say to me, okay, well, she's in perimenopause, what happens next? And they've got a pen and they've got a paper. So when are the hot flushes going to come? And when will the night sweats happen?

16:10Rob Kemp: It's like, ah, ah, ah, does not work like that. They can be really bad. They can disappear. It can go. There is no roadmap here. And I think that's where a lot of women struggle to recognize perimenopause in themselves initially and where a lot of partners fall by the wayside because they want to fix or at least they want to know what's happening. And it's like, sorry, guys, anything could happen day to day. You've just got to buckle up and be there essentially.

16:34Joe Warner: Yeah. Let's talk about the ostriches for a second. So I think a lot of women are like, I'd like the dude who would want to come to the doctor's appointment with me, like extra pair of, an extra brain, extra set of ears. Like, this is great. What about the guy who's like, just deal with it. Come back when you're better. My mom didn't suffer. my mom didn't complain right like let's talk about the ostrich dude because i think a lot of women they it's and the word they don't have the word for it but it's like stonewalling of me of like i'm telling you something's going on and it is not being received so how do we how do we talk to the ostriches or have women who are maybe living with an ostrich it's i mean it kind

17:11Rob Kemp: of reminds me a little bit of the situation that i was in more because of my ignorance i think and And it was very much, you kind of touched on it a little bit there in the fact that I kind of thought that, well, my mum went through the menopause and it was just the change, they called it back then. And she had some kind of stereotypical, more common symptoms, pop flushes, this kind of thing. Whereas my wife didn't have that. We didn't know that's what she was going through. It was anxiety and more psychological things. I mean, as we've been saying all the way through the book, it's very much about having those conversations, having, getting communication going.

17:47Rob Kemp: I think with the ostrich guys, what we did really, Joe, was kind of kick off with very much kind of, this is almost a medical breakdown because guys like a little bit of the instructions, the nitty gritty, there's a little bit of science to it. And that was almost a way in because saying, you know, like those hormones that you have, testosterone and that, well, did you know that that's a part and parcel of what your wife or partner is going through? And hormonal change involves not only testosterone, but estrogen. And so we were kind of breaking it down almost to a kind of bluffer's guide to menopause for men.

18:20Rob Kemp: And that was kind of aimed at the ostrich guy, just saying, well, we've got to find a way of at least getting this guy's head out of the sound and pricking his ears up. And sometimes you've got to make it as basis talking about what's happening in the bedroom or what isn't happening in the bedroom. We would go to them where they are, not necessarily being able to say, but even with an empathetic, intellectual, intelligent guy who's just on the same level as us, maybe. men are coming at it from the penguins yeah i think it's that that's absolutely the key you know there's two reasons men might be an ostrich i think kelly one is is they they just don't care about the relationship i think that's that's a very small number of men and i think the other group will be it's fear fear of the unknown fear of change if you're not sure what's going on you hide away so what rob and i did in the book and you know this comes from decades of experience of writing for men's health and men's fitness is you've got to make the man the central part of story sometimes, right?

19:13Rob Kemp: We've got to make it about them. So whenever I encounter any resistance, I turn it around. I take the spotlight off the partner for a second, put it back on him. Would you like to be happier? Would you like there to be less friction at home? Would you like there to be less rows? Would you like there to be more sex? All of the things that tap in, would you like to feel like you're playing a fundamentally important role in the happiness of your partner? And turn the spotlight on them for a little bit because we are, you know, obviously perimenopause is happening to her. But it is a two-person journey.

19:41Rob Kemp: If you're going through it in a relationship, you want your partner to be healthy and happy. You want to be healthy and happy. And we touch on that in chapter four, what is going on with men in midlife. We touch upon testosterone decline. We say it's not a hormonal change. It's much more of a lifestyle change because of, as we know, the factors that can lead to T going down, sedentary lifestyle, obesity, poor diet, high stress, all of these things. So we look at that as well. But I think it's important to make men realize that the internal environment might be different from a hormonal point of view, but the external stresses you're facing are the same.

20:12Rob Kemp: The work pressure, the young kids, the teenage kids, the elderly parents. And I think once we make men realize that, you know, the stakes are incredibly high here. The divorce stats in the UK, 61 % of divorces in the UK are instigated by women in their 40s, 50s and 60s. 73 % of women who get divorced in that age bracket, side menopause is a reason for the breakdown of their marriage.

20:33Joe Warner: Wow. It's amazing you have that data.

20:36Rob Kemp: And it astonishes me. This is why I think men are sort of walking blindly into this. And the way we describe it is perimenopause comes along and it puts women in a high stakes game and no one explains the rules, but it places their male partner in a high stakes game and no one tells them they're playing. And that's where I think that disconnect comes is we need to make men realize that you might think you can coast along, but if you don't start showing up, and again, none of this is all different. There's a lot of low hanging fruit here, which we cover in the book. But without stepping up, without showing you care, without showing you're going to stick around, this time is a crossroads in your relationship.

21:12Rob Kemp: And you either come through it together. And so many people we spoke to said, when we did get through it, we had a much better relationship because we were forced to address all of the elephants in the room. Sex was better because we were forced to talk about what we liked and what we didn't like. Everything got better because they'd had that difficulty. But on the other side of the path these relationships splitting up and people having to rebuild their lives again in their 50s and 60s. And I'm utterly convinced that there is a lot that men can do today. You know, we talk about the doctor going along with your partner to the appointment.

21:42Rob Kemp: We've got, you know, there's data that shows that women in the UK through the NHS get a better response from their GP if a male partner is with them in the room. It shouldn't be like that. We get it.

21:51Joe Warner: I'm glad you have the data though.

21:53Rob Kemp: So we've got to meet people where they are, right? And this is the low hanging fruit. go to an appointment, read about hormone replacement therapy, understand what she's going to, believe her. None of this is difficult in isolation. We've just got to start taking those small steps.

22:06Joe Warner: Yeah. Women's ability to endure is profound. And my metaphor is always like, women are the Ferraris. Ferraris require a level of maintenance and care that Hondas don't require. Hondas are trustworthy. You can get a whole bunch of dirt in the engine. The Ferrari requires a level of care. And to the point of that metaphor is elevating the woman's experience, because it's so much the woman's dismissed. Like, why is your body so difficult? Why does your body need all these challenges? Why does it have to do all this? It's like, you don't ask a Ferrari why it requires what it requires, right? So I was using my Ferrari metaphor.

22:45Joe Warner: And then a friend yesterday was like, yeah, but women are also like purebred, thoroughbred horses. And I'm like, tell me about that. Also a highly exquisite machine, right? And she's like, they will carry a burden and run and keep going until they die. I think that that's where the perimenopause and menopause is like your threshold, when your body is going through something that's straining and the inflammation and the fatigue of like, you have much less bricks on your backpack or in your backpack that you can carry. And then you're like, hold on, I've got all these bricks in this backpack. Like it is weird.

23:20Joe Warner: Like it's almost this like, you need to carry some of the bricks because I was just going to carry them all until I died. But now I have this thing where I'm like, damn, this is heavy. Yeah, yeah.

23:29Rob Kemp: And absolutely. And we do talk about domestic duties a lot, especially at the start of the book, because it is one of those areas where men can help out. And we've got some really nice little tools and little games you do as a couple where you can talk about what really bothers you in a no judgment, no explanation way. because I think it's really hard to ask for help in life generally, I think these days, but especially in a relationship. You think, you know, the longer you've been together, the easier it is to communicate. But I actually think it gets harder because of all the baggage. You're not just having a chat over the washing machine or the dishwasher.

24:02Rob Kemp: You're having a chat about the previous 15 or 20 years of your relationship, right? Because everything's packaged up. So it's really hard to ask for help. And I think women are so good in midlife at putting themselves bottom because everyone else needs care, attention. And as you say, they will keep going until they burn out. And I think what we need to do as men is learn more about what's happening earlier so we can get ahead of the curve. We can get interjected before things are going wrong, before communication is breaking down. And that's why I think that knowledge is so important because we see it all the time.

24:34Rob Kemp: Women just not going to the gym, not exercising because there's washing that needs to be done, there's shopping that needs to be done, whatever it might be. We need to contribute more just on a day-to-day basis because the recurrent theme of when I was speaking to couples about their day-to-day life, which sort of led into intimacy as well, is men kept offering these grand gestures, a weekend in Paris, new lingerie, whatever it might be. And then we were like, I just wanted you to do the laundry. Like, I don't need the grand gestures. I just need to feel seen on a daily basis. And I think that's where I keep coming back to this good intention, bad execution is where men keep tripping up.

25:08Rob Kemp: Yeah. So many times when we were speaking to co-study couples we interviewed and that word load kept coming through. If we could just, as guys, just lift some of the domestic load, the psychological load, just the everyday stuff in life, just to kind of take it on ourselves, just to make that day a little bit easier when things are going particularly bad. And that only really comes about through having the conversations, through kind of talking a lot about how perimenopause is impacting on a daily basis for us to kind of step up and say, yeah, well, I can do that. And that's what we want as both.

25:44Rob Kemp: We want to be able to at least do something tangible and practical because we feel better for ourselves for doing it. If we can tap into a way where she's going to feel better for us doing it as well and perfect. But it's only going to come through those kind of conversations. And as Joe says, some of the little kind of games and prompts we put within the book just to kind of get them conversations going. Yeah, it's crucial because it's not quantifiable. It is low for hanging through, as Joe says.

26:10Joe Warner: There's data on this too of like men who do the dishes and do laundry get more sex. And I think guys are kind of confused by that. They're like, hold on, how is doing the dishes correlated with sex? Like they're kind of confused. And women completely understand that. They're like, oh yeah, dude, that's sexy. Like it takes the burden off. I'm sharing with you. I'm like, there's so much unsaid when you see that behavior. And so it's so funny because guys are like, I don't get how the dishes get me laid. And the women are like, I do. I get that.

26:42Rob Kemp: One sex expert said to me, the biggest mistake men make when it comes to sex is thinking that foreplay only happens in the bedroom. And as you say, it's happening hours before. It's a text message two days beforehand saying, I hope you have a great day today. I know you're up against it, but you'll deliver. It's doing stuff. It's not waiting to be asked for things. And I think men need to remember that sex and intimacy isn't something that just happens in that five-minute window. It's the previous five days of how you've been interacting, how you've been connected.

27:11Joe Warner: And I think the same thing, you know, women, again, I'm stereotyping, but women tend to be like, why can't you? They're not going to say, why can't you read my mind? But like men are not mind readers. They do not have that skill. Like that's why communication is so key. Because sometimes it's like, well, obviously I need help. No, it might not be obvious. Like we really do have to communicate needs because we're at the end of the day, we aren't mind readers.

27:34Rob Kemp: And I think that's what Rob alluded to, that it is so hard to ask for help or to communicate when you don't want to have another argument or you don't want to get into a contest over who's slept worse or who's got more on at work at the moment. So some of the games we've got in the book are just forget everything that's happened. You're here now. You want to move forward. So when we've got the morning jump start, you don't need 100 % heat to get through the day. You need 100 % between you, right? So you say to your partner in the morning, you take her a coffee. How are you doing today? You've got 20%.

28:06Rob Kemp: Okay, I'll find 80%. And suddenly you're on the same team, right? I know it's incredibly simple, but your partner is now getting help. She's not had to ask for it. She's not had to explain or justify. It's not escalated into a row. Need to step up today and I want to step up because she's struggling and why wouldn't I want to help? And I love that example because it takes 10 seconds, but you've instantly removed the massive bit of friction from your day that otherwise would have festered. And instead, you're doing something that maybe isn't helpful, or you're getting into whatever it might be.

28:36Rob Kemp: Forget all of that. Draw a line under it. What have you got today? Okay, I'll step up. Done. And you get on with your day. And then you'll get closer. And then you're connected because you're on the same team again.

28:46Joe Warner: I love it. I'm thinking that this podcast episode is going to be very useful for the therapists and for the physicians because they see this all the time, this couple dynamic stuff. And going back to the ostrich type of like, sex really, and we never talk about this. We never talk about this with sex ed. It's like sex is so much safety, right? Does she feel safe? Does she feel safe? And even if it's not a physical threat, it's do I feel safe? And if I'm living with somebody who's dismissing my experience, can't communicate with me, that's an unsafe or less safe world. You might not be as interested in sleeping with that person, right?

29:25Joe Warner: And really thinking like, Am I creating a safe environment where really intimacy happens within a container of safety?

29:32Rob Kemp: This hits upon something else that, you know, I think so much of the book, when the experts said it to me, it wasn't like a lightning bolt. Oh my God, I never would have thought of that. It was like, of course, of course. How did I not see that? And the simplicity is the beauty of the advice. And I think this is where the sex and intimacy becomes such an issue. I think for men, ego and self is so tied up with being desired by your partner. So when, for whatever reason, reason they decline or whatever it might be you take that personally and then that becomes a bit of a thing but i think the bigger issue kelly and this is going to maybe be incredibly obvious to a lot of your a lot of your listeners but i think when men are feeling disconnected from their partner they try to seek reconnection through sex you know oh if we have sex then we'll be then we'll be then we'll be closer then we'll be doing this again where of course a lot of women see it the other way i don't feel connected to you so i'm not going to have sex with you and it's that fundamental mismatch.

30:23Rob Kemp: And I also think from a male point of view, you get together because of sex, typically in a lot of relationships, right? It's the passion, it's the spark, it's fun, you're exploring each other, you know, and you can't stop thinking about it. So as soon as that goes wrong, it's like the baby with the bathwater, everything's broken, everything's broken. And I apologize if that sounds overly simplistic, but sometimes men are very, very simplistic creatures, right? And we can't see the wood for the trees. And I think that fundamental mismatch of we're not feeling very connected right now. Let's have sex, we'll be connected.

30:52Rob Kemp: It's the completely wrong approach.

30:54Joe Warner: Right, she's like one more thing for one more person who needs one more thing. It's like a burden almost, especially when she doesn't understand, she doesn't understand his brain who's like desperately trying to be loved. She's like, that's not what I was getting from that. This podcast is sponsored by Addy. Let's stop pretending low libido isn't a big deal. If it's bothering you, it's worth paying attention to. Meet Addy. Adi is a non-hormonal, FDA-approved option for women under 65 with bothersome low libido. Although the exact way Adi works is unknown, it's believed to work on brain chemistry, is taken once daily at bedtime, and it works over time.

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33:48Rob Kemp: It's another thing that's relatively easy to sort of fix is once you're talking about that, you know, we talk a lot about you have to be honest in this period, but you've got to have the humor because this is a shit situation, right? And laughing about it is often a way to reconnect and accept that it's going to be difficult, but you've got the honesty, you've got the humor. And I think sex is especially important for that. And what men need to realize is I think for so long we sort of cultivate this wham, bam, thank you, ma 'am approach to sex. But for a lot of women, and you'll know there's tons of research out here, what is pleasurable changes during perimenopause.

34:23Rob Kemp: You know, we say to men in the book, forget about the home run. Think about first, second and third base because a lot of women will derive far more pleasure from that and feel far more connected from doing those type of things as well. And it's just having to sort of calibrate what sex is in your brain and why it's important to you. But I think that's a large part of why couples who get through perimenopause together do have a wonderful second half of their life because they've addressed this. They've got the sex back. They've got the connection. They almost sort of feel like they've got a suit of armour.

34:53Rob Kemp: There's nothing that's going to touch them now. And I think that's such a powerful, hopeful thought for us all to hold on to. I think that element as well, when we're speaking to specialists at different points within the book, not just that psychological or emotional load, but also the physical changes, the discomfort, possible pain, side effects of her menopause, is something that, as men, we need to get up to speed with, especially we talk about it in the book, and it is just giving that insight into what she's physically experiencing and why there's going to be an impact and not on effects with libido, etc.

35:27Rob Kemp: But I think it is, like Joe says, it's not just having that kind of communication, but it's just actually genning up a little bit on what she's going through. And not taking it personally, right? We heard it time and time again. It's so hard, and I get that it's very easy for me to sit here and say, don't take it personally, where you feel like it is a very personal thing. But, you know, one really quick example. We have this traffic light list game in the book, Kelly, which is about relationships, but it works just as well for intimacy. You sit down with your partner, you have a green list, an amber list and a red list.

35:58Rob Kemp: And the green list, write down three things that your partner does that makes you feel valued and loved and just makes you feel adored. And then write down the amber things. These are the things that could go either way, depending on what else is going on, the habits and behaviors that might jar you off. And then you've got the red list. These are the things that make you Google divorce lawyers, right? They're the things that really get your go. And I think why this is so useful is what we like and what we don't like changes. And quite often we're operating blind again. I don't know that eating cereal within about a one mile radius is going to annoy my partner.

36:29Rob Kemp: So now I know I don't do it. And I think that the prevention is better than cure. You get to head off those behaviors, those habits that really jar your partner off. And you get a bit of insight into what you can do more of. So one woman told me that she just loves it when her partner sends her a text message in the middle of the day. I know you've got a tough day on, but I'm thinking about you. I love you. Can't wait to see you tonight. And for her, she was like, oh my God. And he was like, what? That's all I have to do. And there were these really easy wins. And I think it translates into the bedroom as well.

36:58Rob Kemp: You know, the green list, what do you want to try more of? What makes you feel valued? What makes you feel attractive? The red list, maybe things you want to retire, you don't want to do anymore because it doesn't work for you. You can have that honest communication about sex and intimacy or your relationship with no judgment in a safe space. You're not having, you're not doing it when sex has just gone wrong or the middle of, you know, just after a big argument, you're giving yourselves the opportunity to have a really honest conversation about what you like and what you don't like. And then you can move forward.

37:25Rob Kemp: And if you know that something annoys your partner, you're not going to do it. If you know something makes them feel cherished, you'll do it more. And I think these are the easy wins we're talking about.

37:33Joe Warner: I love it. I met a guy whose wife loved the text messages and he couldn't remember because it didn't mean a lot for him to send a text. So he couldn't really remember it, but he knew how much it meant to her. So he put alerts in his phone that said, text your wife. He set it up. So he was like, okay. And then he did the text because he got the text and the wife loves it. And I was like, dude, that's next level. That's so, first of all, just selfless. But number two, you couldn't just remember that. So you made something in your day to kind of push you to be like, oh yeah. It's like, it takes a minute.

38:09Joe Warner: Like it's, this is not a lot of work. I just couldn't remember to do it. So I had to put it in my phone to text my wife. And he's like, it's awesome. Everybody's happy. And I'm like, dude, good job.

38:20Rob Kemp: But that's exactly what we're saying about removing friction, right, Kelly? That one act, that 10-second job means that when you get home from work, you have a kiss, you have a cuddle, how was your day? You're not walking in having not spoken for eight hours. How was your day? Oh, it's awful. And that one thing, I've always tried to talk, especially from a health and fitness background, those 50-50 moments. We have so many 50-50 moments each day, right, where we move closer to our goal or we move a little bit further away, or we move closer together in our relationship, or we splinter further apart.

38:52Rob Kemp: I'm not saying every single 50-50 moment has to go in the right way, but if you can start nudging the needle more, so 60-70 % of those moments are bringing you closer together. I mean, that's the only way we change. It's never a grand gesture. It's those small, repeatable, sustainable habits.

39:08Joe Warner: That's building the armor.

39:10Rob Kemp: Absolutely right. And I talked about this a lot, you know, new year, new you. We used to do a lot of weight loss, a lot of muscle stuff in the magazine. Everyone would want to change their life. Right, that's it. I'm going to sleep in the gym. I'm eating nothing but chicken and broccoli. I'm going to meditate for four hours. And then you check in with them two days later and they are broken because they've tried to do too much too soon. And it never, ever works. It's about what can you do every day that moves you slightly closer towards your dream body or a tight, closer relationship. And I think once men realize that it's not about the grand gestures, it's about How can I show up in a meaningful, sustainable way?

39:46Rob Kemp: That's when you have the breakthrough. You realize I'm not scared of change, actually. I can embrace it. I can cope with this. I can manage this.

39:53Joe Warner: I love it. The other thing I see a lot in midlife of tying into health and fitness is either somebody gets on a fitness kick and they're not doing it to try to change the other person, but they get along, right? A lot of women, when they get on hormones and then the guy's like, whoa, maybe I should get my hormones checked, right? And I've had couples on my podcast, this is a while ago now, but they're both on testosterone. And they talk about like, I saw how she started to feel on this. And I thought, maybe I'm a good candidate. And he got checked. Lo and behold, he had low testosterone. So now both of them are on the journey.

40:31Joe Warner: And it almost fortifies it because now it's like we're on this, especially when lifting weights, eating healthy, stopping drinking, going to bed on time. It actually works better when you have a support system and when that support system can come from within that relationship. These people take off. They do really well.

40:50Rob Kemp: We covered that quite a bit, Joe. I know because of the fitness, self and fitness side of things we've been doing, we spoke a lot about exercising together, these kind of rediscovering shared interests. Because as we were saying so often, it's quite a way down the road in the relationship. So it often is. It's just an opportunity to kind of refine, rediscover each other. and if that's through working out together or just realizing that what's working for her could well work for me that kind of kicks it in joe yeah i think we really know we realize when we get to midlife as well just how unbelievably important strength training is you know i certainly spent my younger years training for an aesthetic point of view it's like right i've got i've got another 45 minute session get it done and i'm now thinking i want to train for another 45 years that's that's the way that's all that midlife shift and i think it's so hard for women because strength training.

41:38Rob Kemp: For years, women were told it was about hours and hours of cardio and very, very low calorie. And we're now having to say, you need to lift weights. You need to eat, but protein is your pension. Strength training and protein is what keeps women out of nursing homes. We want to be active and independent for decades to come. And I think that it's so important to give women, I don't like using the word permission, but that's how people explain it to me. It's women often put themselves bottom when it comes to exercise and looking after themselves. as I said, because of the amount of chores they've got to do.

42:09Rob Kemp: And one guy said to me, I don't know what's going on. I've bought some dumbbells. I've taken her to the gym. She's not interested. And I spoke to the woman. It's like, I see his face every day. When I exercise, it's when I let off steam. I don't want him there. What I need him to do is to ring fence two hours so I can go and do something. And then again, this is it. I keep coming back to it. I am sorry, but I think it's the crux of the issue, the good intention, the execution. What he needs to do and what men need to do is, I've got the kids, I've got this, I've taken care of everything, you've got the day, go and do whatever you want to do, go lift weights, go for a hike, go and stare at a black wall, whatever it is you need to do to recalibrate right now, go and do it.

42:48Rob Kemp: Because women are notoriously good at putting themselves bottom, but just because of the myriad jobs that need to be done, where this is the time of life where you, because of the muscle mass loss, the bone density, the cardiovascular, the obesity, metabolic conditions, the list is endless.

43:02Joe Warner: Well, let alone mental health. Lifting weights and mental health, there's not much better. I would say there's nothing better. Maybe sleep. But if you're not sleeping, okay, all bets are off. But sure, if you're getting that, like there's nothing better for mental health than exercise. And it's getting like, don't get to the point where you throw in the towel, you get to divorce. Like some people need to get divorced. They do. And this is a growth phase of life. And if you're at a point where not everybody's on the same page, We'd be remiss if we were like, let's save all marriages. No, let's end some marriages.

43:36Joe Warner: Because you get to the point where you're like, we're only halfway done, you guys. Modern medicine being what it is, we're only halfway done. And you already know how to tie your shoes. You're already potty trained. You already got your adult teeth, right? Think of what you can do in the second half that you had to figure out in the first half.

43:53Rob Kemp: I think that's why we come back to the ostrich as well, right? Because the way it was described to me is you can cover over the cracks until perimenopause arrives. And then it's going to reveal exactly the state of your relationship. And if someone is an ostrich because they genuinely don't care, then I think you're getting a pretty good signal that actually maybe now is the time all this relationship is done because you deserve better. As a human being, if the person closest to you does not step up in your hour of need, then ultimately you're right. You probably do need to find a better option.

44:22Rob Kemp: But I like the analogy of how so many men say to me, Joe, I don't know what's going on. I've not changed. I'm still doing the same things I've always done. but suddenly she's getting really, really annoyed with me and snapping at me the whole time. And then I explained, you're doing the same thing, but she's changed because she's lost her bullshit buffer. It's not that it didn't annoy her before, it did. She just sucked it up and now she doesn't have to anymore. And I think that realization as well is like, okay, well, I'm going to have to change because what my habits and my behavior are not conducive to a healthy and happy home.

44:53Rob Kemp: And it's that realization, I think that, ah, okay, well, things have changed. likes, dislikes, tolerance, stress response, all of these things are changing. And I need to change with it. Otherwise, I'm going to be facing the second half of my life essentially starting again.

45:08Joe Warner: Yeah. I saw this statistic. It was like up until very modern times, like up until the past 100 years, average marriages lasted seven years until somebody died. People don't realize that. And they're like, oh, why does menopause have to happen? And it's us and the whales and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like average life expectancy in 1900 in America was 47, which is before the average age of menopause. And then that actually went lower for a while because of the big flu epidemic. So it was like 42 for a while, right? And that was 126 years ago, right? So we think of this as a curse when actually you're like, society's living till average age of 80 is brand new.

45:48Joe Warner: Everybody's like, well, you know, there's a, of course there's outliers and your great, great grandma lived till forever. But by and large, the statistics, because we have antibiotics, clean drinking water, sanitation, great cancer care, we can fix femur fractures very well, right? Like, this is actually part of the blessing of longevity, instead of it being this flaw. And then same with like, wow, this marriage is 20 years in, all hell breaks loose. And you're like, well, it used to last seven years till somebody died. Like, this is like the blessing of the long life. And again, it's like, we're Ferraris, we're thoroughbreds.

46:25Joe Warner: It's like the mindset of this not being a burden and instead being, this is a bug in the system of prosperity, really. Yeah.

46:35Rob Kemp: I think that's such an interesting point. And further on to that, how much the world has changed since my mom would have gone through menopause. Women are now working full time. You have to have dual incomes to essentially support a modern lifestyle. So we're expecting women to do everything they've always done whilst raising kids and looking after early parents and maintaining a full-time job, which comes with its own responsibilities and stresses. And then you factor on, you look at the statistics around women leaving the workforce because of the severity of perimenopausal problems. This is, again, making it about men.

47:08Rob Kemp: But if your partner leaves the workforce because of perimenopause, you're supporting everything on one salary. These are the realities we have to face now. People are living longer. You're going to live potentially 30 or 40 years in postmenopause. So you've got to make the, you know, these are the years that count in terms of making it the decision with your partner. Are we going to go through it or not? Because now's the time to not go through it if you're not going to. Now's the time to strength train, eat better, all these other things, because it's like your pension. You are laying down the foundations and we're expecting women to do so much in a completely new social environment of work and all the other stuff that comes with it.

47:45Rob Kemp: And I think it's so worth reinforcing that this more than ever has to be a team effort, not operating in individual silos anymore, whether it's pregnancy or parenting or whatever. It has to be more of a joint effort across the board. I think it reminds me of that Japanese adage about it being a second spring, is it? That's the menopause, that term they use for so many couples. It's going to be a lot of women are just going to turn around. You know what? 20 years of shit sex and this is just kind of, and now it's all come to a head with this and I've got another 40, 50 years ahead of me. You know, I'm going to go and I'm going to look out.

48:18Joe Warner: Yeah, it's an awakening.

48:20Rob Kemp: Yeah, totally. And I think it's still so loaded in the West in terms of, you know, people describe to me as this terminal decline, you know, the start of an endless winter. It's so much negativity is still caught up in our data stereotypes. And we just need to reframe it as that second spring, that opportunity to reassess what's important, what do we want? And a woman's got to make those decisions by herself. I think with a partner as well, but this is the opportunity to reassess what's important. It might be you go in your different ways, but you're doing it for the right reasons at the right time.

48:52Rob Kemp: It's not a case of it suddenly blows up and the guy's got no idea what's happened. So I really wanted the message, as I said, to be one of hope that no matter... The slight trouble with our book, Rob, is that people are buying it when they most need it. And I just wish we could get it in men's hands sooner. And I certainly, you know, we talked about our professional career. I remember being a 25-year-old on a fitness magazine working with women in midlife. I had an inability to separate the person from the profession. Why is her work suffering? Why is all this? And not seeing her as a person. And I feel very, very bad about that.

49:27Rob Kemp: I wish I had greater understanding, but I didn't. So all we can do now is try and pay it forward, right? Try and get younger guys to understand what's going on. Not only so they're ahead of the curve when it comes to their partner, because I think men can be a scout. We can be the lookout. We can start joining the dots. Oh, this is weird. This is strange because a lot of women don't know what's going on. It's scary. You might be in denial a little bit. So I think there's the personal angle, but also the professional. You can be a better colleague. You can make workforces better places for women to come to so they don't have to shy away.

50:01Rob Kemp: And this is our role. It's in the home. That's where it has to start. But we've got to think bigger than this, guys. We've got to see what we can do elsewhere just to make it, again, remove that friction, make it 10 % easier.

50:12Joe Warner: I want to shift to fitness for a second because there was a paper that just came out this weekend is when I saw it. And this paper basically went and looked at all the major calorie calculators to say what your basal metabolic calorie intake should be that fitness people use. And for perimenopause, they're like that overestimated calories by like 150 to 200 calories, the majority of the calculators. And they're like, it's because women aren't maintaining lean body mass. So even if their weight's the same, their lean body mass is decreasing. So falsely elevating what your baseline calorie intake should be.

50:50Joe Warner: Fascinating, right? That like, we didn't question these calculators and if they actually were designed for perimenopause. And if you were telling somebody to overeat your calories and they're like, I'm not losing weight. and you're like, but you're at your calorie calculator. Like, I just love that somebody cared to look at that. And I see this a lot. I'm just going to pick on men fitness people for a hot second because they're like, all it is is calories in, calories out. That's all it is. And I'm like, think for one second, when women are pregnant, they can eat the exact same and gain weight.

51:22Joe Warner: Is that true? And they're like, yes, that's true. And I'm like, is it also true that when hormones are changing erratically, you could be taking in the same amount of calories and gaining weight. And then people's like mind explodes because they want it to be so simple and they want to be right. But it's like, this hasn't been studied. And it's this ultimate, I think what it comes down to is ultimate inability to listen to women when they're like, I'm eating the exact same and I'm gaining weight. And people are like, no, you're not. And you're like, dude, way to dismiss her right off the bat. Now that these papers are being published to be like, we were overestimating calories in the first place on these people.

52:01Rob Kemp: I hear this and say this all the time, especially on social media, where young ripped male PTs are pivoting into perimenopausal women, right? Because just the amount of money that is to be made there. And that thinking, well, I can get a 25-year-old guy into shape, so I can get a 45-year-old woman in shape. But when it doesn't work, it's like, it's your lack of effort. You're not being disciplined enough. And I hear this all the time. And then from a male partner point of view is you say that dismissiveness, well, you're gaining weight, you must be doing something different. And she'll swear blind, I'm doing nothing.

52:32Rob Kemp: I'm doing nothing different. And that fundamental misunderstanding of the body recomposition that comes from when estrogen declines, why body fat starts getting stored here and nowhere else. And women said to me, I was looking in the mirror, I didn't recognize myself. I just couldn't believe how my body was changing. And then the metabolic impacts, as you say, in calorie burn, all of these things are going on. When it comes to nutrition, it fascinates me, Kelly, because either people want to make it really, really simple, calories in, calories out, or unbelievably complicated. And of course, it sits in the middle.

53:04Rob Kemp: I get that it's all about making money and selling diet plans and X, Y, and Z, but we make it very, very simple in the book with nutrition. It's about protein and fiber. These are the things that women need. Anyone in midlife really need, to be honest. And it's med diet. It's keeping it simple. It's foods you can enjoy, you can eat sustainably. because we see it time and time again. People think they're gaining weight or weights on the tummy. Right, drastic diet plan. Or they go back, women go back to what they did when they were younger. Hours of endless cardio. They'll starve themselves. And they'll starve themselves.

53:34Rob Kemp: And then suddenly the muscle loss, bone density loss, all of these things get worse and worse and worse. And we need to take, this is where I think male partners can help by having a slightly more sustainable long-term view. And we, you know, the whole final section of the book is called power. It's on what couples can do together when it comes to sleep, stress management, exercise, nutrition, and intimacy. Because there is an awful lot we can do once we've got that confidence and once we've got the communication back. But it breaks my heart because you see people just hours and hours and hours on the treadmill trying to lose weight.

54:04Rob Kemp: And you just think, and then we can get onto GLP-1s as well as where women are going wrong there as well. You see it all the time, desperate to get in shape in summer. You know, I saw a stat 40 % of the average weight lost is from lean muscle. So bone and muscle. And these are your insurance policies. Muscle is your insurance policy. But we see a lot of women chase these short-term weight loss drugs because they want to look a certain way. And they're sort of mortgaging the future for now. And I don't think it's done with informed consent. I don't think they're aware of what's going on. And that's something we do talk about very, very quickly in the book, is if you are going to take these drugs, be aware what is actually going on.

54:44Rob Kemp: You're not just losing body fat.

54:47Joe Warner: And these drugs, these drugs are powerful. They work, right? Like just look at Hollywood. We're starving people easily, more easily now. But these drugs require protein intake. They require lifting weights. They require checking either an in-body scan or something that can tell you lean body mass. And certainly our medical system's not set up for that kind of check-in, right? And so especially if you prescribe these meds and then you don't see people for a long time, A new abstract came out in the orthopedic literature that people over 65 on GLP-1s have a higher rate of osteoporosis now. And you're like, yeah, because we just starved up.

55:24Joe Warner: Like, we succeeded in frailty, right? But we're trading one problem for another problem. And I would argue a hip fracture is a disaster. This podcast is sponsored by Joy and Blokes. One thing I've always believed, if I'm helping one person with their sexual health, I always have to think about who's on the other side of that relationship. because intimacy doesn't happen in isolation. And I've said this for years. If I'm prescribing a blue pill for a man, what about his partner? Are they dealing with pain during sex, low libido, hormonal changes? Are they both healthy enough to enjoy the relationship they're trying to build together?

55:58Joe Warner: I see it with women and their health all the time too. She starts optimizing her hormones, more energy, better sleep, the brain fog lifts, libido comes back, and the next thing I hear is, now my husband needs help too. That's one of the reasons I like Joy and Blokes. They care for both women and men, connecting patients with licensed clinicians for personalized hormone optimization when it's clinically appropriate. And they publish peer-reviewed research on outcomes, real improvements in energy, mood, mental clarity, sexual function, and quality of life. Whether you're navigating perimenopause, menopause, low testosterone, or simply wondering why you don't feel like yourself anymore, the first step is understanding what's going on with your body.

56:40Joe Warner: If you started feeling better because you've taken care of your own health, maybe it's worth asking whether your partner could benefit from doing the same. If you've been wondering whether your hormones could be contributing to the way you feel, visit joyandblokes.com slash notbroken and use code notbroken for 65 % off labs and 20 % off treatment. That's J-O-I-N-B-L-O-K-E-S dot com backslash not broken. Code not broken. These drugs are powerful. They do help people feel more like themselves, but they are one tool within a platform to get the body strong instead of to get the body weak. Because man, Like you said, when you're 78, starting then to get strong, it can be done.

57:30Joe Warner: There is no too old. But if you can start when you're 48, it's a lot better.

57:35Rob Kemp: the drum that i'm always banging is if you know if you want to get into shape if you want to lose weight do it the old-fashioned way because of the mental health benefits you mentioned mentioned it's that sense of i think so many people are have that mentality of i'll be happy when i'll be happy if you know i have the six-pack abs or i lose weight but of course you get there and you're

57:56Joe Warner: not any happier that's what they don't know you're like talk to the people who got there without doing the mental work on it then there's something else that they're chasing of like stop Stop chasing for the happiness. Work on the happiness now.

58:08Rob Kemp: It's that journey. The journey is where it comes from, the happiness. And those benefits of doing a weight session. One woman said to me, I love strength training. Never done strength training before, but it's now talking about her deadlift PR. And she said, I do that and I feel like I can do anything. It's that sort of cloak of invulnerability. I can go out and I can do anything now. I can handle a difficult conversation at work. I can handle my kids. I can handle my husband because I've got that inner resilience, that belief, I can do hard things. And I think we spend so much of our life trying to make life easier, which is great.

58:39Rob Kemp: You know, the advantage of the modern world we live in, but we need some tough stuff. And I'm not talking about perimenopause. I'm talking about stuff we can control, weight lifting, a hike, whatever it can be, something that makes us feel alive. That is what resilience is. We talk in the book about stress. We're never going to eradicate stress, but what we can do is build our resilience so that the things that used to bother us don't bother us anymore. And And that's the holy grail, right? It's the water off a duck's back. No matter what you throw at me, I can handle it. And I think the sense of empowerment that comes from a hard session or whatever, hike, a bike ride, just being out in nature, I think even that can build it up.

59:14Rob Kemp: You don't have to go and start deadlifting or powerlifting. It can just be getting outside in nature and giving yourself the opportunity to switch off. All of these are the low-hanging fruits, Rob, and I will keep banging on about. I promise you, we're not going to stop.

59:27Joe Warner: I mean, I think you are early. We don't need all women to understand perimenopause, menopause before we get the men on board. But we're still trying to get women to understand what's happening. But we cannot leave 50 % of the population behind. So I think you're early in this. I congratulate you. I thank you for being a resource for people saying, when people say, why aren't men talking about this? I can proudly say they are. They are. And they're publishing books. And they're getting on podcasts. And they are talking about it, which just helps other people feel more comfortable talking about it.

59:58Rob Kemp: yeah and i think that's where the confidence comes from as well kelly i think a lot of men know something's going on at home but until their partner brings it up or they feel confident in saying it or you know we even in the book we just say this is how to these are some options to bring up the conversation and you know what if you get your head snapped off the first five times don't quit because it might take 10 times and i think that's where we we need to remember that it's the long haul we're not going to fix anything overnight with one conversation but if we keep showing up and keep showing that we're serious about being supportive, that's when the communication can then begin to be re-established and you actually make a breakthrough.

1:00:35Rob Kemp: Because as you say, so many women need to know a lot and we can't get all women there before men are, but maybe men can help some of the women understand what's going on. Why can't this work both ways? Because we really are in it together. And I know that's a bit of a cliche, but there's people suffering in silence here that don't need to. The tools are out there. And I think for men having a little bit more confidence, into a little bit more knowledge about what's going on, that can open the door.

1:00:59Joe Warner: I love it. Yeah, the M Factor documentary, the perimenopause one that just came out on PBS, they profiled a men's group. They profiled heterosexual couples. And it's so beautiful to see this. It's so beautiful for the men to be like, I'm so glad it wasn't me. I thought it was me. I thought I was the problem. Turns out it's this completely other thing. That's not her or me, it's this. And now we're a team. And it's so beautiful to see it reflected. and that's my hope. Again, personal growth and you got to go through the tunnel sometimes to get out on the other side.

1:01:33Rob Kemp: But I think that's so important what you've just said there for men especially because I think we like to have an enemy. We like to name what we're up against and when it is against each other, as we know, that's when it unravels. When it is something else, it's hormones. There's someone else in this relationship. Let's band together and see what we can do. Do we need to go down the treatment route straight away? Can we look at other things we can do? How can we communicate better? How can we lighten each other's load? All of this stuff, right? Now we know we're against that and we're not against each other.

1:02:00Rob Kemp: I genuinely believe that's the breakthrough a lot of couples need. And you just need to get out of our heads for a minute to realize what's going on because we do get a bit tunnel vision, problem, problem, don't look at it, don't look at it, don't look at it, it might go away. Or I'm going to fix you, I'm going to fix you, I'm going to fix you, which doesn't want to be fixed. Now you've just made it feel like a problem. Let's get on the same team as quickly as possible and then we can start dealing with what's really going on.

1:02:22Joe Warner: I love it. Thank you. Rob, any final words as we close this out?

1:02:26Rob Kemp: I just, I mean, as Joe's saying, I think, as you alluded to there, Kelly, the more of us guys who are talking about it, the easier it's going to be for guys going forward, relationships, couples, et cetera. We're getting invited into the workplace more. We're talking to more and more guys where they're working with women, going through the menopause and just making them aware as well. It is something that the more men are talking about, the more men will realize that it's up to them to step up and play their part as well. And we've just, we've enjoyed doing it. We found it fascinating. It's been rewarding.

1:02:58Rob Kemp: It's been a bit of a journey for us both as well.

1:03:01Joe Warner: It's fascinating, right? Like it's biological, it's social, it's relational. Like it's a big, fun, huge topic. And when you get into it, you're like, wow, this is bigger than I thought it was going to be.

1:03:13Rob Kemp: We totally had that moment. But I think what's been lovely, we both had hopes that women were going to read it. We knew very early on that this wasn't necessarily a book that men were going to go out and buy for themselves unless they really, really needed it. It might be something instead that was either passed to them by their partner or even hurled in their direction across the bedroom with the instruction of go away and read this before you talk to me again. But what's been super lovely is the feedback we've had from women who either have just sort of seen, because the books out there and you've written them, they're absolutely brilliant, but none of them are talking about from a male point of view.

1:03:45Rob Kemp: So I think it's been useful for women to see how perimenopause plays out from a different viewpoint, maybe for them to even understand why their bloke is acting this way. Why is he being dismissive? It's just giving some color, some context to the whole perimenopausal journey. And I think when you're in the middle of it, you can't get enough viewpoints because you just need one thing to resonate with you that makes you go, ah, okay, I can see the pieces of the puzzle now. They're not scattered everywhere. I can start putting them together. So, you know, and one couple even told me they're reading it together.

1:04:16Rob Kemp: They're reading a few paragraphs and then using whatever's in there as a jump point to talk about their relationship or what their friends are going through. And that is music to our ears, right? Because when conversations are difficult, anything that makes them a little bit easier is an absolute home run. So the fact that couples are using the book as just something to get them chatting, something to get them out of their heads is just music to our ears.

1:04:38Joe Warner: I love it. Thank you for taking the time to be on a podcast today. Thank you for taking the time to write a book. I know it's no small feat. Thank you very much for being here today.

1:04:47Rob Kemp: Thanks for having us. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Kelly.

1:04:50Joe Warner: If you found this episode funny, helpful, insightful, please take a moment to follow, rate, and share the You Are Not Broken podcast with someone who might need this conversation too. That support is how this information reaches more people. And thank you. For courses, books, and my monthly membership and the Casperson Clinic information, visit kellycaspersonmd.com. This podcast and all content from Dr. Kelly Casperson is intended for educational and informational purposes only, and this is not a substitute for individual medical, coaching, or psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the guidance of your qualified healthcare professional with any questions you may have regarding your health.

1:05:34Joe Warner: Never disregard or delay medical advice because of something you've heard on this or other podcasts. Thanks for being here. And remember, you are not broken.