How Double Dutch are Making Mixers the Main Character with Raissa De Haas #27

In short

Episode topic: Double Dutch’s strategy to make tonic water the “main character” in bars and non-alcoholic/low-ABV occasions, using flavor-first innovation and hospitality-only distribution.

Guest backgrounds

Raissa De Haas is co-founder (with her twin sister) of Double Dutch, responsible for sales, marketing, and branding; her sister Josh handles finance and operations.

Key claims

Mixers are central to moderation trends; consumption has shifted from ~80% alcohol/20% on-its-own to ~60% alcohol/40% without alcohol. Double Dutch differentiates from Fever-Tree/Schweppes by innovating the spirit-mixer “end serve,” not just premiumizing gin-and-tonic. Hospitality builds the “perfect serve” experience and bartender visibility; retail comes later in a different format.

Notable examples

Launching with cucumber/watermelon/pomegranate/basil flavors; “non-negotiable” bottle-on-the-table rule; packaging upgrades (15% more carbonization, new bottle/crown caps).

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

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The Evolution of Tonic Water

0:46 to 2:29

Discussion on how tonic water has transformed from a mixer to a standalone drink.

“The co-founder, with her twin sister, of Double Dutch, Reiser De Haas.”

Consumer Drinking Habits

2:30 to 4:25

Raissa explains changing consumer preferences and habits around tonic consumption.

“We kind of owned, I think 20 years ago, kind of the premiumization definitely came and very much focused on premiumizing current mixers and soda, water, ginger beers, Indian tonic.”

Occasion-Led Strategy

4:26 to 6:16

Exploration of how Double Dutch positions itself for various drinking occasions.

“And kind of the healthy balance is just becoming more important.”

Differentiating from Competitors

6:17 to 8:13

Raissa discusses how Double Dutch competes against established brands like Fevertree.

“Is that how the whole team kind of builds itself up?”

Engaging Younger Consumers

8:14 to 11:01

Insights on how Double Dutch attracts younger demographics and their preferences.

“Yeah, our audience is actually, we don't know the exact amount.”

Building a Brand in Hospitality

11:02 to 14:00

Raissa shares the importance of hospitality for brand credibility and consumer experience.

“then I think, okay, you really associate that brand with an amazing experience.”

Navigating Current Trade Challenges

14:00 to 15:45

Understand how brands are adapting strategies amidst trade changes.

“Has that changed as a strategy because of the changes across the trade?”

The Future of Hospitality

15:45 to 18:01

Explore why the hospitality sector is expected to recover and thrive.

“Personally, I just think it's one of the best things to do, go out and have drinks and have food, explore different on-trade venues.”

Retail Versus Hospitality

18:01 to 19:38

Learn how Double Dutch is approaching potential retail opportunities.

“but I think for us that means not with our hospitality bottle and our hospitality product.”

The Dynamics of Working with Family

19:38 to 22:21

Discover the challenges and benefits of sibling partnerships in business.

“We don't have a double-dutch relation and a personal relation because we are, of course, in first instance, we are sisters and siblings, and then we are business partners.”

Show all 16 chapters

Shifts in Drinking Behavior

22:21 to 24:44

Examine how consumer attitudes toward alcohol consumption are changing.

“It's good that we kind of have our kind of both streams.”

The Rise of Challenger Brands

24:44 to 28:00

Understand the significance of challenger brands in responding to consumer needs.

“And I think it's also, I think through COVID, that boom, massively exploded.”

The Complexity of Consumer Research in Brands

28:00 to 29:48

Explore why bigger brands struggle with consumer research and innovation.

“the industry particularly uh bigger brands they have insight departments they have uh research budgets to spend.”

Challenger Brands vs. Bigger Brands

29:48 to 31:08

Understand the differences in approach between challenger brands and established giants.

“huge hurdle rates, huge amount of research, is it going to work?”

The Future of Mixers and Consumer Trends

31:08 to 33:14

Learn about the evolving role of mixers and trends in moderation.

“And because it's been talked about a lot and it's been trialed, but no one seems to have cracked it.”

Double Dutch's Ambition and Business Focus

33:14 to 34:51

Discover Double Dutch's goals for global brand recognition and sustainable growth.

“We definitely have big ambitions and we want to be a global brand and we really want to be known for flavor innovation and offering a bit of that excitement into your mix of categories.”

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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00Raissa De Haas:Hello and welcome back to YouMe and CPG. And today we have a challenger challenging a challenger. Try to say that fast. Tonic water has always been the case study everyone has looked to that embodies the challenger mindset. 20 years ago, Fever Tree turned the category upside down by leaning into premium quality in a category that completely lacked it. Now, though, with changes in drinking, changes in consumption, changes in culture, Double Dutch is leading the way, pushing tonic water not just to be the quiet partner to gin, but the main drink itself, the hero of the bar. The mindset, the mission, the hospitality-only approach they're driving has implications and learnings across every CPG category.

0:42Raissa De Haas:This one is not to be missed.

0:50Raissa De Haas:We've got quite a special one today. The co-founder, with her twin sister, of Double Dutch, Reiser De Haas. Nice to see you.

0:59Haines:Nice to be here. How are you? I'm very good.

1:01Raissa De Haas:Good. How's your day going? All fine?

1:03Haines:Very hectic, but good, yeah. Good, good.

1:05Raissa De Haas:Mine's also very hectic, actually. It's the 5th of March today, which is World Book Day, and I've got three children, and they all wanted to dress up in all sorts of different things. We had a witch this morning. We had Marshall from Paw Patrol, that famous piece of literature with our boy and then our youngest baby was just fairly confused by the whole thing as was his father and I left my phone at home. It was total chaos running to the train but I'm here and very happy to be in the calm of the podcast studio and relax with you and talk about this brilliant brand. So let's just talk about the kind of mission or the category mission I guess, if you like, which I find so interesting with Double Dutch.

1:52Raissa De Haas:The last, I don't know, 15 years, tonic water has gone from relative obscurity into something more interesting, hasn't it? And you obviously had Schweppes being the kind of incumbent and Fevertree came along and premiumized tonic water. And it feels like because of the shifts in moderation, because of the shifts in flavor, there's this new chapter, which is positioning double Dutch tonic water as the kind of central drink rather than the add on, rather than the mixer. Is that a kind of good summation of what you're trying to do?

2:29Haines:Definitely. I think you're absolutely right. We kind of owned, I think 20 years ago, kind of the premiumization definitely came and very much focused on premiumizing current mixers and soda, water, ginger beers, Indian tonic. But 10 years ago, that whole gin boom massively exploded. And we had such flavor innovation, especially in gins, but also in different spirits. But then mixers were really lacking that innovation and creativity in flavor profiles. And so we launched very much with the idea of that innovation has to come in mixers as well. And so we look at it more from what is the serve and the flavor profile that you want to get to rather than I have an add on, which is the mixer.

3:08Haines:And it's kind of second dot next to your spirit. So that's also why we launched very much with flavor first and that experience as front of mind.

3:19Raissa De Haas:And do you see consumers, you know, what's the consumer habit? Is it drinking these with a gin? Is it mixing or is it actually having it in its own right? What do you see?

3:28Haines:When we started 10 years ago, our consumption was approximately 80 % with alcohol, 20 % just on its own as a healthy adult soft drink kind of style. And that's definitely kind of swifted over the past 10 years. I think at the moment it's roughly 60 % with alcohol, 40 % without alcohol. And also that without alcohol has definitely evolved whilst 10 years ago it was more people just drinking it as a kind of more adult flavor profile in a soda and that was it. But now it goes into non-alcoholic cocktails in lower ABV moderation style. Flavours are much more complex than just the drink on itself and mixed with other non-alcoholic ingredients.

4:06Raissa De Haas:I saw a good stat actually. I think it was from McKinsey, which said I think 74 % of consumers under the age of 30 decide what to drink based on mood or feeling or moment versus the generation before who would have defaulted to wine, beer. and I think that's really interesting and and and is that I guess partly why you've seen that shift from um kind of using with gin to to being in total but how do you as a drinks brand deal with that kind of flexibility on consumers deciding on a whim when and how and if they're going to drink how do you kind of you know forecast how do you kind of see your brand how do you position your brand in occasion in moment um in a world of such flexibility and options as well

4:53Haines:I think it's super important to kind of understand that changing consumer behavior and moderation is super important and sustainability is becoming more important than kind of the sugar levels and everything. And kind of the healthy balance is just becoming more important. And so I think it's about how does that fit in into their general behaviors in their drinking rituals and not just thinking of it as in how does that fit in within the gin and tonic moments, but how does that fit in wider into when do they think about drinking these kind of serves, not really the mixer in itself, but when at brunch, what are they thinking about aperitif style, after drink, food pairing.

5:39Haines:and so I think it's adapting to the different moments in a day.

5:43Raissa De Haas:So it's like an occasion-led strategy. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, I think that's really interesting because I guess that's how people, again, information that we know is true of consumers drinking earlier or having socializing earlier in the day than they used to. I think 3 to 4 o 'clock on the Saturday is now the most popular time in the UK to socialize and have a drink versus 9 till 10. So it's got a lot earlier and as you say, the rise of things like brunch has done that. So is that how you do? Do you kind of map occasions and go, you know, we've got a portfolio that fits to those occasions. We've got a strategy across the trade to fit those occasions.

6:18Raissa De Haas:Is that how the whole team kind of builds itself up?

6:20Haines:It's definitely a part of how we look at it and how our drink strategy looks like. We were kind of lucky. We launched very much with flavor first. And at the time we launched it very much with the idea of we don't want to innovate the gin and tonic. We want to innovate the spirit mixer kind of category. And not just we are going after gin, we are going after the end serve and what that looks like, whether that is with gin, vodka, tequila or whatever it is, that doesn't really matter. And so we've always kind of had that flavor first mindset. And now, of course, with that whole moderation boom and the whole experience and people wanting something different, that has definitely played in our advantage.

7:00Haines:And so we've definitely played kind of on it, but it wasn't maybe from the start our intention. so we were a bit lucky with that as well.

7:08Raissa De Haas:How do you differentiate yourself versus a brand like Fevertree which has got large backing behind it from a media spend and advertising point of view and great connections with the trade? How do you fight against a brand like that? How do you compete?

7:25Haines:They are very much kind of focused on heritage, very much kind of ingredients led and premiumizing that 100-year-old serve of the gin and tonic or vodka soda and we very much don't look at it as it's just primalization for us it's more about flavor innovation and so yes absolutely using the best ingredients and using great flavor profiles but more about it's not just your gin and tonic we want to make amazing end serves in two three step ingredients so definitely kind of product wise we are much more on flavor uh focused and then positioning we positioning ourselves much more like younger vibrant super energetic um kind of high energy, whilst they are probably slightly more, a bit more traditional, very much on that heritage focus.

8:12Raissa De Haas:Yeah. And are you seeing from a data perspective, younger consumers drinking your tonic water?

8:19Haines:Yeah, our audience is actually, we don't know the exact amount. It kind of depends on social media where you look at it, but our audience is definitely younger than traditional gin and tonic drinkers.

8:28Raissa De Haas:And is that a deliberate decision from you guys to go after the kind of next generation of drinkers? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Okay. A lot of people talk about how to engage Gen Z, Gen Alpha, but what do you think is the key to understanding them and engaging them in the way that you've obviously done?

8:45Haines:I think it's about how do we try to make people feel when they drink it or serve it? And I think it's really about that kind of, does it make you feel happy and ecstatic? And are you proud to serve it? Do you feel like, oh, you're a bit of a connoisseur or a bit of I'm offering something different? And I think that feeling that consumers have when they drink it either in a bar environment or at home. I think that's really important at kind of how to look at it from a positioning point of view or where to focus on.

9:19Raissa De Haas:Yeah. OK. And just thinking about the trade. So Double Dutch is exclusively in hospitality and across the on trade. What's been the decision as to why you've done that? you've built it across the trade versus moving into retail?

9:34Haines:Because I really believe that brands are being built in on trade. And I think the reason is because bartenders are kind of the gatekeepers, I think, of hospitality. And I think if as a consumer you go to a bar and you see Double Dutch in a super nice environment, you immediately associate Double Dutch with that environment and how it made you feel. If it wasn't a party environment, you kind of have that association. Or if it wasn't a super premium restaurant, you have that association. And also getting that first experience with Double Ditch where it is in a perfect glass, in a super, in a perfect serve.

10:07Haines:So it's a nice glass, nice ice cubes, great pairing with a nice spirit or in a non-alcoholic serve or whatever it is. That first experience I think is super, super important. And if you have bartenders that are also then talking about the story and kind of being brand ambassadors for your brand, that definitely helps. And can then also educate consumers. I think having that first experience with a brand is super, super important. So having that in hospitality, I think builds credibility, but also adds on demand for retail and in other hospitality venues later. I think if you launch in retail and the first experience would be someone takes it off a shelf, brings it home, pairs it maybe without at home.

10:49Haines:You don't really have the nice ice cubes or you don't have the right glass or whatever. Or you pair it with something, maybe an old bottle of gin and it wasn't perfect, it wasn't really great. Then are you really going to pick it up another time? Whilst if you've seen it in hospitality, in great environments, great serves for two, three, four times, then I think, okay, you really associate that brand with an amazing experience.

11:10Raissa De Haas:So yeah, the total experience. I guess you could feel like you can control it a little bit more for the consumer. Yeah. I often find there's sometimes a disconnect between how brands talk about how they want their drink, their product to show up in the trade and a disconnect versus the reality. Because particularly larger brands have these brilliant sales force teams that one are going to speak to the trade and sell the brand. And they're also they've got a list of five or six or seven or eight different brands that they need to sell in one. So that obviously feels a bit different. But also just the psyche of the bartender, you know, in a busy bar in London or anywhere really, you know, they've got these aspirations of the perfect serve, the perfect garnish, the perfect glassware, you know, the bartender understanding a brand and having the history and be able to talk through it.

12:03Raissa De Haas:But in reality, the bartender's got 50 people shouting to try and get his attention, you know, asking for this, that or whatever. That's the reality. So how do you close that gap?

12:15Haines:Absolutely. I think that's absolutely the reality. And especially in high volume moments like Saturday evenings or the two to three moments where it's really busy, then absolutely we can't expect any bartender to even talk about it. What we hammer on in our number one kind of non-negotiable is always that we try to get that bottle on the table that when you order a gin and tonic, you get your gin in a glass and that bartenders serve that bottle next to your glass. And so we always get that visibility. I think that's one of the benefits in our category as mixers, that you do get that bottle on the table.

12:47Haines:Compared to Spirit Rents, of course, super difficult. So if we can get that, then we're already kind of halfway. We have the visibility. People can actually touch, see the bottle and kind of read a little bit about it. But, of course, we're also not naive that if you're in high-volume bars and that extra waiters have to clean up the bottles from the bars. So sometimes they just serve it behind the bar and then hand it over. Then, yeah, it is what it is. And we have to kind of build on those moments where it's a bit more quiet. So it's a combination, absolutely. And I think getting the perfect glass and the perfect garnish, that will be very, very rare.

13:25Haines:So for us, our number one focus is getting just that bottle across the table.

13:29Raissa De Haas:Yeah, and I guess it's also engaging those bartenders in the way that understands that reality as well. The trade is having a difficult time. We know pubs are closing at record rates. We know footfall is down across a lot of bars, nightclubs closing, etc. We know the story. How do you approach that by building a brand in a declining segment effectively? What's your thoughts on how to go about that versus 10 years ago maybe when it was opposite? Has that changed as a strategy because of the changes across the trade?

14:06Haines:I think absolutely there's nervousness of brands launching in entree and focusing on that entree. But I really believe in focus. And I think, yes, it's a tough environment at the moment. I absolutely believe that hospitality will get better. And we are not going to all of a sudden now change our strategy. We've always said hospitality is really our focus. We also believe that there's a massive benefit to hospitality that you serve brands that you can't buy in retail. because it becomes really difficult to, for example, if you have a bottle of wine that you can buy in Waitrose or Tesco and you charge 50 pounds for it, but you know that you can buy it in Waitrose for 20 pounds, people feel a bit, am I really paying for this experience?

14:48Haines:And similarly with a gin and tonic, I think if you order a gin and tonic or any serve really, and you know that tonic and that gin, you can buy it in the supermarket for what will it be, 2 pounds, 2.50? Why am I paying 14 pounds in this nice little bar in Mayfair? so we really believe in the strength of focus um and i think there's still loads of opportunity and absolutely hospitality businesses are having a tough time but um because they have a tough time they need to offer something that's different and that that really gives that extra experience for consumers to return and that they when they go out they feel that they are getting a different experience something that they can't have at home and i think that's the whole way of why people are going out and still spending in venue.

15:31So it's just about focusing on that.

15:35Raissa De Haas:Why do you think it will come back? You said you're absolutely sure that the trade will grow again. What's the belief that sits behind that?

15:44Haines:I think people have been going out for hundreds of years. It has to come back. Personally, I just think it's one of the best things to do, go out and have drinks and have food, explore different on-trade venues. I think absolutely it's tough at the moment. I think prices have increased so much that it just has. I think if you go to a paparazzi or Mayfair, you probably pay the same for gin and tonic as a glass of champagne. While a glass of champagne has always been more kind of celebratory and you wouldn't have four rounds of champagne, right? But for gin and tonic, we are still expecting that.

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16:17Haines:And I think there has to kind of the prices have to come in balance again. Those prices have to come down and the government has to help with it. and all increases in duty and in national insurance, that's definitely not helping. But I think we will get out of it again.

16:35Raissa De Haas:Yeah, and there are green shoots, aren't there? I think there was some good numbers that came through the other day around Gen Z in particular, dwell time in pubs and bars going up, spend in pubs and bars going up, right? So there are some good green shoots. I guess it's just, yeah, it's trying to work out how, you know, the on-trade has changed, hasn't it? It's evolved and it's not going to go back to the way things were of people sitting in a pub and having a quiet pint for three or four pounds. Life won't return to that. It's evolved and I guess it's brands who can see the evolution, see the opportunities within the evolution that will win.

17:12Haines:Yeah, for sure.

17:13Raissa De Haas:However, I'm sure during COVID and when the entree was pretty much closed, home consumption or consumption at home was going through the roof. People were making cocktails at home. People were experimenting with all sorts of different drinks and styles and having the time to kind of create the perfect serve at home. And that is still pretty high. That hasn't abated. Surely the temptation to go into retail must be there.

17:45Haines:Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's also good volumes, right? And I think at some point retail does become attractive, but we are currently looking at, okay, how does retail look? What does it look like for us in the future? Because of course, at some point we would like to go into retail, but I think for us that means not with our hospitality bottle and our hospitality product. So in a different format, in a different product, then I think retail could absolutely be interesting. Then we built a brand that consumers know from our hospitality. We keep XX exclusive to on-trade and I think protect that price point for hospitality venues.

18:21Haines:And in retail, we have a different offering that leans more towards consumer at home. So it's definitely something for the future, but not in our current bottle and current format.

18:32Raissa De Haas:And you've done a bit of a rebrand relatively recently. What was the thinking behind that? You've obviously, you've got cans and you've got bottles and yeah, there's been a tidal wave of color and excitement and flavor and quirkiness as well, I guess, across the double Dutch packaging. What was the thinking behind that?

18:51Haines:I think we just needed kind of a bit of an upgrade. We've had our previous packaging, I think for six or seven years, we really wanted our own bottle to have that own identity. We have a bit of swirls in our bottles and it links back to our campaign of the mixers causing a stir. Yeah, of course. You have lots of kind of flavor things that you can find in our packaging, especially in our secondary packaging. We changed our bottle to hold also a bit more carbonization. So we have 15 % more carbonization than in our previous bottle. And so it was kind of an overarching project. we wanted to change our crown caps the way it was served and so i think it's been a good little

19:36Raissa De Haas:tweaks to constantly stay relevant and stay relevant yeah yeah yeah it's really nice just changing lanes what's it like working with a twin sister overall in most days it's very good okay i just i i have very close brothers and sisters and not twins but i couldn't imagine working with them and they definitely couldn't imagine working with me so yeah what's it like how do you how do you kind of create a working relationship, a personal relationship, or does the whole thing just sort of collide?

20:02Haines:It absolutely collides. We don't have a double-dutch relation and a personal relation because we are, of course, in first instance, we are sisters and siblings, and then we are business partners. So our relationship as business partners is probably a lot more emotional than it would be when you're not siblings. But I think the really good thing is that we 100 % trust each other and we know each other so well that we can really pick up on each other and um it's super useful in meetings and we can really pick up and we are super complimentary our roles are very much splits in in double dutch we do i do everything with sales marketing and branding and josh does everything with expert finance and ops so very different and is that how you two have kind of

20:45Raissa De Haas:always always kind of been as you've kind of grown you know maybe more you know at school i don't know mathsy, sciencey, operational, and then maybe more creative writing. Yeah, is that, is that?

20:55Haines:A little bit, but not as pronounced as it is now. But kind of where we started, we didn't really think about it. So I started doing invoicing and I started doing kind of the logo things. And then it stayed like that. And I think I got the better at the stick. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, yeah.

21:09Raissa De Haas:Although obviously the other thing is very important. It's not quite as fun as building the brand. That's really nice. And yeah, how do you, obviously you've both got families now and you've kind of grown up with the brand, haven't you? And how do you maintain that kind of good relationship? There are clearly difficult decisions. There are moments when it's tough. How do you kind of maintain, make sure it feels still professional? The rest of the team still see you as professional versus just kind of clashing sisters if you don't agree.

21:40Haines:I think as we kind of grew up with Tomladesh, we probably have built a slightly more professional relationship between the two of us within the company. as our team obviously also grew and so we had it to come a bit more professional rather than just siblings. So I think it's been in that aspect definitely a more positive kind of professional evolution. Yeah, yeah. And I think it is, I think it's super positive to be with two people. I think when it is difficult and it's challenging times, then I think if you are with two people and especially having a co-founder in general, I think just really helps and you kind of can pick each other up.

22:20Haines:But when it's good times, it's also more fun, more celebratory with the two of you. I think we involve our entire team. It's good that we kind of have our kind of both streams. Joyce has kind of her export finance ops team. And then I have more kind of the sales and marketing team, which is a bit more the creative team. So I think that works really well. So yeah, I think it's very positive.

22:44Raissa De Haas:And just thinking about a little bit about the future, alcohol in general is under scrutiny, isn't it, of how consumers drink. Moderation is talked about a lot. There are, again, green shoots that demonstrate consumers are drinking more again. But just how do you, how close do you keep to all of that world of how consumers are drinking differently? you know the things like zebra striping and and particularly in the uk the way people engage with alcohol brands how close are you to that world and how much do you think about it

23:18Haines:i think it's super important to be quite close to it because drinking behavior has changed so much over the past few years and i think moderation it's not really a trend anymore it's i think it's here to stay and it's not to say that people are not drinking anymore but i do think people are just becoming much more aware of their drinking behavior. And it's not about, it's that quality over quantity is becoming so much more important. To have options of moderation, it's not that people go teetotal their entire lives, but at moments they just, there has to be that moderation. Do you think that's driven,

23:51Raissa De Haas:we've had a couple of podcasts on the future drinking, one from an alcohol perspective and then almost from a non-alcohol perspective. And there was a good bit of debate around, one is driven, the change is driven by economics. of people who don't have enough money. And the other one is an awareness of health and understanding what alcohol does negatively to your body and your life. And therefore people are moderating. What side of the fence do you sit? Is it health-driven or is it cash-driven?

24:16Haines:I think it's health-driven. I think if it was cash-driven, then that whole boom of non-alcoholic spirits wouldn't have been as high as it is because you often pay more now for a non-alcoholic spirit than for a bottle of gin or a bottle of vodka. I think in most bars and restaurants or more premium on trade venues, you pay 80, 90 % of the price of a cocktail. So if it would really only be economically driven, then those prices would be much lower. So I think it's about health. And I think it's also, I think through COVID, that boom, massively exploded. So I'm more on the health fence.

24:54Raissa De Haas:I think it's probably both. I think it's hugely driven by not having as much money in your pocket as why you were drinking less And then I guess it's almost been stacked on top of that from a health perspective. Options have opened up. People see other people drink. You know, it becomes a wave of change, doesn't it? Versus kind of one or the other sitting on the fence, as I do. Brands like Double Dutch, like Moth, like Buzzballs, like Trip, all drinks brands, all winning with the next generation of drinkers. Do you kind of look across brands like that and go, yeah, we've got a similar mindset.

25:32Raissa De Haas:There's a similarity in how we approach the world. Is there something that you can almost see that ties you together?

25:39Haines:I think what ties us together is that the founders of all of those brands are actually their own consumer, probably, and their own target consumer. And I think that helps. and I think why lots of kind of smaller craft brands have done well over the past few years is that it's really that it's not, we've started it from a problem. We're not saving the world, but I think we've started it from own frustrations in not having an opportunity or solution for what we were looking for at the time. And I think that is with Trip, that is with Perfect Dead, that is with Mod. And so I think that definitely helps with kind of being your own targets a consumer helps kind of understanding what they are looking for yeah yeah and yeah we've we've had

26:27Raissa De Haas:all of those founders i think and yeah i think i think it's very interesting you talk about i also think there's something interesting about challenger brands or insurgent brands being kind of culturally attuned uh fairly instinctively to to what consumers want whereas naturally bigger brands have more process structure different people uh in charge different things that they can do from a flexibility point of view and just find it harder to tap into a cultural tailwind than brands like Double Dutch. Is that something you agree with?

27:01Haines:Definitely. I think big brands overcomplicate that MPD process. And I think lots of the big brands, how do you call it, like those surveys where you do a trial with 20 people, consumer panels. When we launched, we had kind of a mentor and he said you should do those consumer panels and see whether if it is if they are looking for it we launched with our cucumber watermelon and pomade and basil and out of those panels it came out that you're mad to launch those because nobody's looking for flavored mixers um people are drinking a gin and tonic and a moscow mule and a vodka soda and that's it and don't try to make a flavored soda because nobody's going to drink it if we would have listened to those then we would have never launched and now all of the mixer brands are doing flavored mixers double flavored sodas non-quinine that's all focused on not just gin

27:54Raissa De Haas:so i do think that what why is that so just drilling into that is a massive issue across the industry particularly uh bigger brands they have insight departments they have uh research budgets to spend. They have a feeling of we need to get this signed off almost from a consumer perspective to cover our backs. Decisions are made across stage gates. They need to have a certain amount of research to go through. You've hit the nail on the head. It is too complicated. But what did you ignore and why did you ignore that consumer research?

28:29Haines:I think consumer panels in itself, I just don't think works because I think in those, one person starts talking and the other one just kind of you have such a leader of yeah think group thing exactly that group thing i just really don't think that that works so i just kind of intuition thoughts this never works and then we didn't really have the budget to kind of research it further um so then we said we're just going to launch and then that's probably the best research let's launch and see how it goes and we kind of launched with the idea we will be super open to changing packaging products flavor let's just kind of see it along the way uh and then that's what we did we changed our packaging uh very early on uh we changed our flavor slightly

29:10Raissa De Haas:and that's what bigger brands believe they cannot do they can't launch test and learn iterate change because of the cost because the expense because of the hurdle rates and all of that stuff but really it's a it's a mindset thing isn't it it's saying you know it's a it's it's a ceo saying yeah okay we are going to do that as a department and people have tried to do this with things like distilled ventures and um different different kind of venture departments across businesses but it is saying we're going to put aside some money we're going to work out from a bureaucratic red tape point of view how we simplify and we're going to go and see if we can create genuine innovation that works with consumers versus trying to go big bet every time you know huge funding huge hurdle rates, huge amount of research, is it going to work?

29:54Raissa De Haas:And then have crazy KPIs that most brands would not hit anyway. So you've tapped into such an interesting point, particularly around innovation, where it becomes challenger versus bigger brand. And challengers are just able to do that. They want to do that. This is how they research, isn't it?

30:10Haines:And I think it's also because those big brands, their KPIs of success are probably millions of bottles in the first whatever months, whilst I think challenger brands are quite happy to just trial it out and it doesn't need to be an immediate success. We're quite happy to kind of see how it goes and we don't need to see those immediate successes. Yeah, I think, for example, Coca-Cola has delisted loads of products that probably, in our view, would have been a really good success. But in their point of view, it was a tiny brand and numbers didn't make sense. 100%.

30:41Raissa De Haas:Yeah, it's just I can completely understand the barriers as to why we work a lot with them. So I'm with them when they think about it. But it feels like because of the rise and the growth that insurgent brands are growing, there was that Bain study, wasn't there, that although they hold something like 3 % or 4 % market share, they're growing categories by 70 % or 80 % now. So it is worth bigger brands working out how they can do this better and investing in it, I think. And because it's been talked about a lot and it's been trialed, but no one seems to have cracked it. So, yeah, it's a really interesting thought and particularly stemming from, well, if we'd listened to research, we wouldn't have launched.

31:22Raissa De Haas:Thinking about the future then, let's go to the category first and then we'll think about Double Dutch and hopefully they're interlocked. But, yeah, what is the future of tonic, of this type of drink, mixer, whatever we want to call it? Where do you see this going?

31:39Haines:I think mixers play a kind of natural role within the whole moderation part. And I think moderation, we spoke about it, isn't going anywhere. So I think that definitely helps. I think gin and tonic in general is down. But for example, spritzers are massively going up. Kind of that low, mid ABV drink source is massively increasing. And so again, I think mixers play a really natural role in that. So I think mixers and flavored mixers in particular will do really well in hospitality venues. I think, for example, that Spritz serve, do people really bring that home yet? I think it will evolve. And I think at hosting, people will start experimenting with different Spritz serves.

32:22Haines:But I think at the moment it's Campari, Soda, Spritz and that's probably Hugo Spritz, maybe if you're really experimental. so I think especially in entree that's definitely I think mixers are in a really good place yeah I think the category in itself is definitely going into more that moderation lower calories I think there's no non-negotiables it's not a USP to be low in calorie or all natural hygiene factor it's kind of that's now what's expected so don't talk about it but you have to be that yeah yeah

32:55Raissa De Haas:Yeah, which is a loss, isn't it? The consumer is demanding. I mean, B Corp in itself is very difficult to get. Its locale from a product perspective is not easy to achieve, to keep the taste. So the hygiene factors are pretty high.

33:08Haines:Which used to be the USP, it's just not what it's expected.

33:12Raissa De Haas:The world has changed again. And what about the ambition for Double Dutch?

33:17Haines:We definitely have big ambitions and we want to be a global brand and we really want to be known for flavor innovation and offering a bit of that excitement into your mix of categories. I think we are very far away from that, but I think if at some day it would be instead of, can I have a Hendrik's chin with tonic? It would be amazing if we would be at a point, can I have a double-edged with whatever it is. So I think that would be definitely the ambition.

33:40Raissa De Haas:I think just rounding out the conversation, I think listening to you and seeing the brand and seeing the strategy a little bit, I feel like you've simplified everything. You've simplified to the point of understanding how the brand's going to grow, ignoring temptations across different parts of the industry. You've got a very clear strategy and you're building it sustainably piece by piece. Is that something you feel like you're trying to do? You sort of simplify, drive efficiencies, focus, understanding what's going to make the boat go faster. Is that kind of how you run the business? Definitely.

34:17Haines:And I think it's been a challenging five years. We had Brexit, COVID, inflationary pressures, then that crazy transport, glass prices that went up. So I think over the past few years, we kind of just toned everything down and just thought back to what is the essence and how do we really sustainably grow. and I really believe in focus and there are so many things that we could do and there are so many challenges and so many distribution points that you could go after. But I am really, especially in challenging times and in kind of slightly crisis times like it is at the moment, I really believe in focus and doing one thing really well rather than four or five things a little bit across difference.

35:00Raissa De Haas:Yeah, just keeping with your focus. No, really interesting. Great story.

35:04Haines:Thank you so much for coming on.

35:06Raissa De Haas:Thank you for listening to Yumi and CPG. And we'll speak next time.

From the publisher

Tonic water is the classic challenger brand case study, and now it’s going through a second wave of disruption.

Two decades ago, the category was unloved - lacking vibrancy, cultural resonance and innovation.

Then Fever Tree came along and turned everything on its head by offering ingredient-driven premium mixers designed to elevate - not downgrade - their spirit counterparts.

Fast forward to 2026, Double Dutch is disrupting the category again with a voracious hospitality-first focus.

Extroverted and vibrant, their flavour-driven proposition might just be the perfect tonic for the struggling on-trade.

We sat down with co-founder and ‘tonic twin’ Raissa De Haas to chat challenger mindset, cultural relevance, and why focus is critical when the climate gets tough.

We hope you enjoy it, and a big thanks to Raissa for jumping into the studio.

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