Brand Growth Tactics from Liquid Death, Goodrays, Karma Drinks, Red Bull and more, with CPG superstar Ben Dando #30

0:04Hello and welcome back to You, Me and CPG. Today we have Ben Dando. Thanks for coming in, Ben. Pleasure. Thanks. You see all these drinks before us. You've kind of had a hand in all of them. You've done seemingly so much. And yeah, I'll probably gaff it anyway. So do you mind just kind of properly introducing yourself and what you've done? I've been in food and beverage for about 20 years. I've got some nice accolades along the way. So I was nominated for CEO of the Year three times. I was in the Power 100. I was in the Marketing Week's Top 100. And I've worked across a range of brands from Liquid Death, which some people may know, through to startups, scale-ups.

0:46I've worked in personal care, health and beauty, transdermal energy patches, beverage. I'm currently the MD of Good Race. and worked at Red Bull, Coca-Cola and sort of various people. My mates call me Beverage Ben. It's been a lot, isn't it? It has, yeah. I wonder, and we'll get into all of it in kind of varying degrees. But I guess you're almost starting from a career point, a career conversation. You have done, in the, I don't know, 18 to 20 years that you've been kind of working, you've done a significant amount. and some of the places you haven't stayed particularly long, you've jumped around.

1:28That can often go against the advice you often get when you're a kind of 20-year-old saying, yeah, you know, stick at something, demonstrate loyalty, demonstrate you can do the job, you know, lap yourself a few times, all of that advice. What would you kind of say to that when you look at your career? Would you say actually jumping around does work? I think for me is if you're learning and growing. so every role that I've done I've always tried to learn and grow and learn something new so I did just shy five years at coke I've sort of done two or three year stints at different places but each time it's been you know am I learning more commercial acumen is there a leadership benefit here is there um you know some form of negotiating or brand creative that I'm developing on so I always felt like when I had an opportunity that came about it was always like is there something that's going to stretch me to help me progress yeah and and there are benefits of both there's benefits of staying for a longer period of time providing you're still learning and you're developing there's also benefits of being stretched quicker and so for me I'm you know more entrepreneurial I've enjoyed like you know started in the big corporates then transitioned to those startup scale-ups where you can move at a quicker pace um but just that that learning part so for me it's not done me any harm um and I've set my own businesses up yeah got a distribution company I've got an agency as well.

2:48So the learnings that I've been able to take across those different roles that I've done have been invaluable to help me do those things. And is the, I guess, mindset of that finger in lots of pies, lots of things happening at once, right? It's not at all been linear. How do you manage that? I think a lot of people would look at everything you've got on. You're an MD, you run your own agency, you're a non-exec director. there's loads of stuff going on how do you manage time how do you manage focus how do you prioritize yeah I well first and foremost uh my family are incredibly supportive so it's not possible to do any of that without a really supportive family um prioritization is just critical you know just knowing really where to focus and I'm incredibly efficient with the time that I have now to do delivery at quite a quick pace um because there is quite a lot it's also not just on me like the teams and the businesses that I work with or for or have created now I've got some amazing people around me and I think it's there's a point in your career where you go from like I to we yeah and sometimes you have to go back to I depending on what's happening but actually a lot of it is about we so the the level of talent that I've got around me allows me to do lots of things all at the same time as well is there one moment that you kind of felt or or kind of sensed this This is the space I really want to be in.

4:13This is the area I want to grow. I get, you know, I'm not sure many people kind of, you know, at 18 think it's going to be functional drinks for me or I want to be beverage Ben, right? Like, is there at some point, was it the kind of sales work you did at Coke? What was it that kind of triggered? I think there's been different points throughout my career that triggered different things. So like I was an elite athlete for a long period of time. So I was always focused on, you know, doing that and then fell into the world of, you know, CPG, FMCG. And I think the big corporates classically trained was brilliant, you know, for that side.

4:45But I remember one guy telling me I had a big beard at the time that my career would be limited by how I looked. And I was a bit like, I don't think the big corporate is quite for me. So and then I sort of one of one of the kind of key roles that I did, I was set up Calafia Farms in the UK. It's a dairy alternative brand. And it was honestly awesome. It was like being backed by private equity business, a US company, but having to do everything from like find an office, clean the toilet through to pitch to retailers and build a brand, you know, and it's now the third or fourth largest very old brand in the UK now.

5:18So, and I found that the quicker pace that I could go, the more I enjoyed it with less constraints. So I started, you know, that second half of my career was, you know, more entrepreneurial, faster paced, purpose driven, sustainability driven organizations. did a bit of further study at Cambridge University around sustainability and leadership as well and Karma Drinks we became one of the world's uh highest scoring b corps as well with the foundation that we created so I just found that kind of if it was you know purpose for people planet um great products great brands and I could move at the pace that I wanted to yeah just the fit was getting better and better whereas I'd been in businesses before where they were like you're moving too quick or take people on the journey and listen I've definitely got things wrong in my career where I've not taken people on that journey in points as well so there's a balance in there which is why today I've landed on you know having my own agency called Uncharted Territory where we're a creative venture studio and we help you know new brands and scale up brands grow and then you know in 2020 I set up a distribution company called Unify Brands and we distribute brands like perfect ted lucky saints yeah candy kittens yeah you know we've got lots of great lots of great brands and we distribute that into irish retailers so that understanding of how to build and scale grow brands i've just i've touched on so many different categories of brands now that i've got real expertise in that space can run across yeah yeah yeah and the point you just made there about not looking right for corporates is an interesting one i don't know if you know Hugh Thomas, who's set up at Heinz, where we first started as graduates together.

6:57And I think most secret Santa's he was left a razor on his desk to sort himself out. And I think he thought, actually, this isn't for me either. You wouldn't get that these days. And listen, don't get me wrong. I love my time. You know, Coke, the Denons, big corporate businesses are brilliant. You get really good fundamental training. There's some very, very talented people. Incredibly smart people. Yeah. Yeah, you see how big business operates, the efficiencies, how they budget correctly. There's so many positives. And it's different, isn't it? I mean, it's easy to say, isn't it? Oh, big corporate should be more nimble, more agile, like scale-ups.

7:33But actually, they shouldn't be because they've got a fundamental different business model that works. Incrementalism works. You know, they are managing huge portfolios versus just all about like turbo growth. And it's different. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, and that's why you've got M &A exists, because what they can't build and create themselves, they've got an opportunity to acquire, bring into a system that works, and they can scale at pace and run it incredibly efficiently and very profitably, which startups scale-ups struggle with. Hugely. How important has network been to your career? It feels like you're very well connected.

8:12Yeah. And again, just thinking on this advisory, I think a lot of people say, oh, network's so important. need to start building your network you have to do it authentically yeah but what would you say to a 20 22 year old starting out and and how would you go about building that network yeah i mean there is an element of who you know it's super helpful but i think it's not just who you know it's picking the right people to know as well so i've had different mentors for different reasons throughout my career different points you know whether it's been good bad or indifferent different um I've definitely invested into relationships yeah I mean ultimately you know people you know buy from people you know relationships are critical so um trying to trying to do it for a reason not just for the sake of it I think is really important yeah um and I'd encourage anyone to network but it's ebbed and flowed for me at different points I think early in my career I really did network a lot and yeah then sort of in the middle patch probably less so because I got too busy with everything that was going on yeah networking dropped off the radar um you know and then sort of at different points now you know network very specifically to help create opportunities or you know deliver or extract some expertise from someone as well because we're all we're all learning right no one's perfect or an expert getting into drinks then and uh obviously md of good rays been a red bull been a liquid death been a carmicole why do you think particularly functional drinks is exploding uh at the moment globally specifically across the UK.

9:41What do you think shifted from a consumer perspective? I think it's been shifting for a while, but I think just wellness, people are more aware of what they put into their body. They're more aware of their mental wellbeing these days, the impact between physical health and mental health and how that impacts your overall wellbeing. And I think as people have become more aware of it, they're starting to really consider what they put into their bodies, food, beverage, how they exercise, where they exercise, the routines that they have, the daily rituals yeah and i think you know functional beverages is an example of that category where you've got people moderating on alcohol yeah you know because there's obviously some fairly negative impacts that can happen from alcohol consumed in vast quantities and people are looking for they still want great taste taste is still the number one critical thing in any beverage if it doesn't taste great you're not going to get the repeat purchase yeah but i think if you can have great tasting product and then added benefit and function that's going to help you you know help your gut health help you perform better help your cognitive function you know whatever it might be help you get help give you more energy it's you know it's there for a reason people are adding to you know adding to having a product not just yeah having something that you know yeah high high caffeine high sugar you know which gives you big spikes and big crashes it's a bit more sustainable so and you touched on m &a uh pepsico but poppy yep poppy's launched in the UK.

11:05Yeah. What do you make of their start? Yeah. I think they've had a, from the data that I've seen, a very quick start and doing a good job. They've partnered with Tesco exclusively to start off with. I'll be interested to see how the flavor profile works with British consumers because the US flavor profile and sweetness levels are different to UK. But it appears so far that it's been a pretty reasonable start. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? Because it's a very kind of California American brand. Yeah. It feels like that. But I think they've done a good job in the partnerships they've done here.

11:38I think they've been very smart. Yeah, yeah. And ultimately, consumers will choose, won't they? Yeah, yeah, 100%. We'll see. We'll see. I think PepsiCo have made a really good effort with that. Yeah. Just looking at some of these other brands then, there's such a good race where you're the MD, where it's very functional, isn't it? It's during Calm, it's Focus and Recess and all of that stuff. and the power of calm is the sense. You've got a noisy neighbor in Trip doing something pretty similar. Is there space for those two brands to win in the UK? Yeah. I mean, first and foremost, Trip, an incredible brand.

12:15So they've done a very good job. The founders are great. The executive team have done a really, really good job. I really like the brand as well. And then for... Very, very political answer. No, I do. I know Daniel well. Yeah, yeah. I really do. No, we had Olivia on here a couple of months ago. Yeah, I think they've done a really great job. It's interesting to see how they're doing the flip reverse to Poppy, right? They're going, right, how do we go to the US and expand over there? So it'll be interesting to see how that goes for them. For GoodRays, I guess, you know, we're a slightly different brand.

12:47So yes, we operate in a functional category in a similar space and we've got products that include CBD and we've got adaptogens, you know, and nootropics and there's actually other categories that we're going to be innovating to go into as well. but we are becoming more beverage first as well so you know trip have got powders effervescence they've got various you know various things actually but for us strategically going beverage first feels like the right you know the right play for us yeah and then actually our brand is more about getting people you know out into the sunshine yeah nature outdoor environment because your physical health links so closely with your well-being that if we can encourage people to be outside more yeah we know the positive impact that that has yeah so we're trying to create a lifestyle crafted in that space yeah and you know and obviously the product deliveries through the products that we've got and it's been incredibly successful you know we were number two in the uh fast 50th you know growing companies that's just been released so we're getting really good traction um i think there's a little bit more we can do around brand positioning um i think we we are quite functional at times and i think people still want you know sort of look feel designs and aesthetic tone voice what it stands for does it represent them yeah tastes great yeah you know and function so i think at times we go dial up function a bit too much and dial down the lifestyle so we're just sort of course correcting a little bit that work yeah we have a talking earlier we have a kind of iconicity model and our own indispensability uh identity and impact and i think it's really interesting because how trip push really hard on identity what it says about me etc and you guys go quite hard on indispensability right like and and kind of thinking about function and and making sure you get into people's habits and rituals and routines really nicely i think it's very good but almost both could look at each other and learn something a little bit yeah yeah but i think back to your original question you know you've got coke and pepsi you know you've got um you know remedy kombucha and multiple other kombucha like you know you've got Nike and Adidas you need that kind of competitive nature within the market because it ultimately helps consumers, it helps retailers it helps brands be better stronger, be more innovative so I think there's definitely space and there's space for more as well yeah okay let's move on to Liquid Death you were the MD there for the international business that's right now it's easy to say oh it didn't work in the UK but I guess that's what You need to understand the objective of what the foray into the UK market and the other markets were to understand if it's been accessible.

15:26But I think it's probably fair to say it didn't work quite as well as the company were expecting. Can you give us a viewpoint on what didn't work? Yeah, we had two key objectives. So the first one was, can we grow valuation of brand? And then the second one was, could we get proof of concept in key markets? so during that period of time we grew valuation from 70 mil to 1.4 billion so sort of big tick in terms of objective and then did we get proof of concept in key markets we did was that sustainable enough in order to maintain being in the uk uh is a slightly different slightly different question so for me i look at my time at liquid death and it was honestly one of the best things i've ever done i absolutely loved it the brand was incredible the people were great the team I loved it are there things that we could have done differently yeah for sure but that's part of any brand as you learn and grow and scale um and we had some yeah we had some good partnerships you know um like the live nation partnership was incredibly successful for us I think we had 46 million earned reach in our first year our awareness was at 20 percent our actual run rate revenue run rate was very strong and uh we're in about the top one percent of launches we won the grosser product launch of the year so there were lots of successes lots of successes but um you know ultimately you know the business chose to exit the uk market and actually other international markets as it sort of consolidated to focus primarily you know in the us market yeah and we spoke about this briefly offline but you know you take the us market you land in a walmart a whole foods a target a kroger the scale that you can achieve versus the kind of time that it takes to build a brand in certain key markets.

17:11It's just, it's a different playing field. So strategically, I think it was the right choice from liquid death. And I think a lot of people have hypothesis, LinkedIn is riddled with. There was a lot. Hypothesis on why it didn't work. And we're not going to go into all the different theories there, but there is something, isn't there, around, is this subculture of kind of heavy metal and death big enough in the UK to sustain, you know, monster plays a little bit there. Yeah, yeah. Is it big enough in the UK to sustain a brand? Did they get the cultural nuance? Did they get our humour? Yeah. Is that fair?

17:47Are they fair points? I think for me, so if you're a challenger or startup brand, I talk a lot and advise a lot of businesses about this. And I talk about what's your niche, what's your core audience? How do you start with a core and then you expand out from that point? Liquid Death did an incredible job with that in the US. It started in punk rock metal. you know by by the end they had you know children grandmothers they had kind of everyone in between you know drinking the product and but they started with a cultural kind of target market and then they built out from there um and and the brands that we advise we we said through the agency we suggest that they do that we find those scenes and then you try and own that scene as well i think for uh liquid death you know some of the key learnings that creative at times was quite american yeah so you know british humor i think we're you know we've got a great sense of humor yeah as a nation and we're quite sharp we're quite witty um and it's not maybe not quite as brash or shouty so you know going back to like cultural relevance how do you like when you're a brand expanding into a new market just be aware of those cultural nuances and then play to them so and a good example of that is we use the comedian called tom segura u.s comedian most people in the uk probably won't know yeah tom segura but if you used a ricky gervais as an example um completely different because he's got us and uk yeah you know appeal so i think i think it's just you know elements like that so but um the creativity behind the brand i mean it's been a it's a blueprint for lots of marketers how does it compare to the to the other places you work you know with inside the business what's it like uh just ripped up the rule book yeah like absolutely genuinely yeah yeah yeah it was it was like there wasn't like a um here's a brand strategy framework with a core creative and it's a 30 page document you know it was like okay what how creative can we be and how far can we stretch this and if you like it or you don't like it if people are talking about it that's our marketing dollars spent incredibly well because people are talking about your brand and your brand gets known yeah you know your very typical marketing strategies like grow awareness conversion you know advocacy and we kind of did top end and bottom end of funnel and it worked incredibly well so yeah um and it was just i mean it was an absolute riot yeah you know the crazier the ideas the better the better yeah we had you know steve-o's actual hair used in a you know a doll you know that you could stab and you know we had aussie osborne do an effervescence campaign with us you know from his you know his past and stuff and yeah you know we used actual blood of tony hawk in a skateboard and like there's just like who who would create those things yeah and make it happen and bring its life and execute and like an idea is great but if you can't execute the idea it doesn't matter um yeah and the ideas were phenomenal yeah yeah and stuff you'd never expect and then the execution was unreal yeah you know and that that really did help the brand overall yeah no it's it i mean it's countless case studies and examples isn't it everywhere you look everyone says oh you know be more likely liquid death.

20:47So it's a really interesting story. Just, I guess, thinking a little bit about the US-UK point there, you talked about kind of the landscape in the US being very different because of Whole Foods, Walmart, the scale, you know, 330 million people versus kind of 60 or 70 in the UK. Would you say though that, you know, in a way that the UK is harder to crack than the US? That's a generalization, isn't it? But do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do know what you mean. Yeah. I guess for those that are listening in, they are fundamentally different markets. You've got brokers and distributors who can only, in the US this is, that can only distribute and sell products in certain regions.

21:30You've got national retail, regional retail. You've got nuances between, you know, California is very different to East Coast. um so it's just the scale the size the way it operates the retailers the relationships how you sell it like it is totally different yeah um but it is a huge opportunity for brands as well even the way the businesses are structured the investment the teams are set up you know i'd say one of the big differences uk is i think um like category knowledge and selling the negotiations are really quite hard yeah yeah in the uk yeah and quite and quite tough yeah um i see lots of brands think oh i've got a great tasting product or a great you know um food product or whatever it may be i'll just i'll launch that into the uk and then they don't invest behind brand you know that doesn't work either you know and so i'd say it's you know it's a tough market to crack and it takes longer to crack but when you do crack it it is you've got a really strong foothold to build out from that point yeah um but yeah my from working you know and i've worked in new zealand australia asia pacific um us europe uk you know uk is definitely one of the toughest markets to crack yeah what's the future of this space then um it's it's growing it's kind of uh expanding in different ways there's a lot out there now you go and look at the fixture it's yeah you know in a big store it's pretty significant i know talking to to retailers and buyers you know novelty is great uh but there is a lot of chop and change going on what where do you think the kind of functional beverage space is going the uk is about a tenth the size of the us market um and so there's a huge amount of headroom for functional to continue growing you know whether it's incremental to total beverage category or whether it's share steel from traditional cds um so i think functional continue to grow.

23:27I think the number of entrants I'm seeing is rapidly increasing, which I think will be great because it will actually, you know, the consumer value and options I think will be brilliant. I think there's, the functional category at this stage has managed to keep a kind of a premium price point. It's still be interesting to see if that follows trend with other categories, you know, sports and energy, very low average selling prices, very low price points. Whether the functional category can keep that price premium as people look for function, switch out of alcohol to non-alc and alternatives. It'll be interesting to see how that develops over time.

24:02And do you think that gap there is the biggest opportunity for functional wear? People are drinking less. They don't know what to pick up in a social situation. They don't want alcohol. They don't want kind of classic cola. They're looking for something else that is healthy, fun, all of that. Do you think that's where the growth sits? I think there's a huge amount of growth there, yeah. So I think it's that we would call it like blurring the lines. So blurring the lines between like Alk and non-Alk and functional and that kind of bit in the middle, which is like people still want to socialize, be with friends, family, connect, you know, especially in an age where digital is taking over in real person connections are really important.

24:42Yeah, I think the opportunity for brands to innovate in that space and we're, you know, it's huge. And we're also seeing retailers move that way. Yeah. you know um sainsbury's are doing a fantastic job in this space at the moment amongst other retailers but you know there's there are lots of interesting discussions happening with that retailer where they're looking at kind of options for that space and then how do they continue to grow and invest behind that space and give it more space in store and you know this kind of destination moderation where people are drinking less and younger generations are zebra striping and some people are just not drinking at all yeah but they still want to have an occasion yeah you You know, and the occasions haven't really changed.

25:21It's just they're looking for products to fit that occasion. And do you think, you know, you look at the category, it used to be, the blurred lines is exactly right, both from a consumer need perspective, but a category perspective as well. It used to be, you know, obviously beer, wine, spirits, cocktails, CSDs. And now at a given party, someone can be drinking a buzz ball, someone can be drinking a liquid death, a trip, a good raise, a pint of beer you know it it's changed fundamentally hasn't it I don't think people should underestimate how the landscape has shifted yeah totally pretty fast really yeah it's been a few years hasn't it yeah it's significantly changed do you think yeah do you think that kind of those options those choices that variety will just continue almost can't put it back in the box now i think so yeah and you've got i mean you take you know waitrose as an example the level of like non-alcohol alternatives they've got within fixture like there's there's so many you've even got the big players you know the bigger corporates now that are innovating in that space yeah great yeah you know no low out versions and different flavor versions as well um you still have people drinking alcohol yeah buzz balls great example you know um au vodka you know another great example doing really well yeah incredibly well moth you know um rtd cocktail so there's you know but they are like high abv yeah percentage products yeah yeah um that people are buying into in order to get that i assume that alcohol yeah hit yeah um and pretty quickly without having like you know 15 pints a bit so back in without trying to sound too old back in my day it was you'd have 15 pints a bit you know you do it whereas now it's not you'd have you know four or five cocktails and you'll get the same level of like you know buzz or yeah exactly yeah yeah not sure i could ever do 15 much much bigger and better than me but but um yeah i think i think it's a you know we talk about this space a lot as well and it feels like there is an opportunity for uh a brand to to take hold a little bit right it feels like it's a space that is in great growth with great change but that a brand hasn't necessarily taken hold yet.

27:36And historically you look at categories where this type of thing happens and one or two or three brands at least get the lion's share of the market and the rest following. It seems like it's still up for grabs. It makes it very interesting. It does, yeah. I agree, by the way. And I'm not necessarily sure when this gets aired but Lucky Saint have just released a functional beer. Yeah, I saw that. You know, so, and it's with electrolytes. So it's a hydration product effectively for a beer, non-alc beer. And they're starting to blur that line between function and beer and non-alc in an interesting way.

28:12But they've obviously not gone full function without out because they're traditionally, not traditionally, but they're seen as a beer brand at this stage. But I don't think there's anyone to my knowledge that's doing function, non-alc beer, owning that space at this stage. Yeah, it's pretty interesting that, yeah. It's very interesting, yeah. So there's lots of - Yeah, it'd be interesting to see how well they do because at some point the blurred lines doesn't work. At some point a consumer will say, I actually just want a beer, or I just want a functional drink. So I think that the blurred lines, we talk about that a lot, and particularly looking at data from a consumer need perspective, particularly younger consumers versus millennials in their kind of primary and secondary needs, it's primary and primary for Gen Z, right?

28:59So it's difficult to navigate. But I think at some point there is a limit into how much those blurred things go and a kind of lack of clarity of what this is becomes a problem. So yeah, I think it'd be really interesting. Well, it's that kind of, if you stand for everything, you stand for nothing. Yeah. But I don't think anyone, any brand has particularly nailed it just yet. But then at some point you'll have to choose as a brand what do you want to be? What do you want to be? yeah as well exactly right okay um i just want to touch on b court uh a second you talk about sustainability did a did a course at cambridge at sustainability it feels like it's been a big part of the way you think you you talked about um kind of planet being kind of one of the p's that you you think about when you look at jobs or you look at your future b court's one of those things that from talking to a few people is really quite difficult to get so you have to go through quite a lot of hoops and jump through a lot of hoops.

29:55And then the output is seemingly a badge on the can or being able to talk about it. How much is it worth it? How much is sustainability as a play worth it in these spaces? Listen, it was David Asper's 100th birthday, right? He's an absolute hero and a legend of mine and has created a real legacy for what he's doing around climate and the impact on climate. So B Corp is a fantastic organisation that's trying to put in place frameworks, structures, get organisations thinking about what does a sustainable future look like, not just for product, but for people, teams, how they operate across multiple different thesis.

30:35the so i'm pro b corp um i think the like every brand these days should have sustainability not as a 17th agenda point on a deck it should be just caught how they operate i do yeah it should be yeah because i mean we're fucked without it yeah yeah reality you know it's there's lots of quite negative news out there around the climate what's happening to the planet so brands have to step up and actually try and make a difference. You know, B Corp is an option for that. So if you're, you know, as a brand, you don't know where to start, you don't know what to do, or you need like frameworks to help you structure your business and make decisions.

31:14It's brilliant for that. I think the challenge with B Corp is, you know, it takes a long time to go through it. There's a lot of paperwork that needs, you know, doing, you have to put in place lots of different processes. And I guess it's just, how does it then live true throughout the organization you know ongoing so we we did it at karma drinks and you know we're probably one of karma is one of the most ethical brands out there yeah and we had a points tally i think it was about 135 points which was sort of in the top percentage globally uh and it was the highest beverage scoring at that point but we had you know no plastic we had uh really cool people principles we had our own foundation that donated 1 % of our proceeds back to supporting communities in Sierra Leone.

32:02We only bought organic sugar. It was Fairtrade certified. You know, it was, we did lots and lots of things. The challenge of that is you're also like self-taxing. So you're, you know, if you look at brands these days, pre-2020, it was just, right, we'll grow revenue, you know, at all costs and happy days. Six years on, actually it's what's your gross margin and how do we grow revenue in a sustainable way that's profitable? so when you're trying to be a sustainable business more so than other companies that are out there it's like a self-tax at times each percentage point each percentage point makes a difference it's difficult as well because probably no one's going to sit here and challenge you and saying all those things you said about Karma Coda the people the Sierra Leone stuff the giving back is not a good thing to do the question mark is do consumers care?

32:53yeah I think they care when it impacts them So, you know, if you, you know, going back to that climate crisis, and I don't want to be too downbeat about some of these things, but there's stats out there around the level of global population that live by coastline, right? So as climate increases, I think it's like 70 % of people globally or something like that. You know, as the temperatures rise, ice water melts, sea levels rise, as people's homes, that's their livelihoods, it's where they fish, it's, you know, it's what they eat. where their community is you know people will care when it impacts them yeah that's you know that's why i fundamentally believe in that and there's a big shift you know from when i was you know young versus where i am now i'm not really really old but you know i've got a bit of experience under my belt now that shift has been monumental in 20 years so what's it going to be like in another 20 years and you know we there's sort of a few different ways of solving that climate crisis and one of them is around technology you know can technology save us and if you then look in that technology space you go right uh ai you know it's just that is moving at such a rapid pace now and innovation and i think the human species is incredible innovation it's one of the things that we do so well it's something that i enjoy in the product world of like innovating in new products and categories so i think i think people care when it impacts them i do think they care but not when it costs them so much to care as well because you know people are tired of cash everything's more expensive these days you know water gas rent mortgages yeah everything everything yeah yeah so another few quid on a drink because of sustainability measures it's difficult for the consumers to swallow isn't it yeah but i think you're right i think it's a good view and you could argue the you know brands businesses particularly large businesses should do it Anyway, regardless of if consumers care, because it's the right thing to do.

34:45A hundred percent. Definitely. You kind of were inside Red Bull for a little bit. Obviously, you spent a decent chunk of your time at Coca-Cola. Do you need to be a fundamentally different individual to work at startups and scale-ups versus some of those bigger companies? Obviously, it's a different attitude and a different style of work. but as a you know if you if there'll be there'll be people who are sitting at those big corporations looking at some of these brands and wow it'd be great to get closer to those types but is it is it a a type of person thing a type of people thing that work across this type of business listen i fundamentally believe that most people can try most things but um there are differences you know i think like and i'll try and cover off some of those differences like risk profile yeah You know, if you are a very risk adverse individual, being in a startup is probably not the most suited to your risk profile, right?

35:47Because when you're in a startup, you're taking risks and chances every day consistently. And it can be the difference between the business surviving or dying. So you've got to be happy with that risk appetite and profile. There is nowhere to, and I mean this in a nice way, there's nowhere to hide. So like in a startup, the execution and what you create, like you are responsible for what you deliver. So you don't have big teams, big infrastructure. You know, sometimes you don't have any infrastructure at all. So you have to go and figure it out, create it, then execute it, then review if it's working, then hold yourself accountable for that.

36:24If it's not, then course correct and pivot and change. And another one I think is like pace. so uh and i'm not saying that you know bigger bigger organizations don't work at pace it's just a different type of pace so pace in decision making for example you know you could be through a founder-led organization you can make a decision pretty quickly uh when you start putting in place governance and uh investment structures there's obviously certain things that will still need to be run past that governance but the pace of decisions that you can make in a smaller business you know the optics for me is it's it can be a lot quicker yeah with a higher risk profile yeah So your mindset needs to be right going into that as well.

37:01Just let's dwell on pace for a little bit. I'm a, my team will get, listen, listen to this and think off he goes again. I think FMCG is, is, is not true. I think it's relatively slow, right? Like from, from being in it for 20 years and looking at some of the other industries you're in, I think actually it's, it moves at a relatively slow pace versus other industries. Now that's not to say it's any easier for, for, for doing that. But I think, pace and speed is a lever that is not often pulled within our industry. I think people, when a piece of work comes in or you look at a launch plan, I think often people, I think we should challenge and reimagine how fast things can really go.

37:51I think there is a a mindset and it's actually both a kind of a British thing as well as a kind of global thing but there is a kind of British barrier that you put up and say oh last time that took 18 months to this time it's going to be 18 months or maybe we can do it in 17 but you can't do it any faster than that you know yeah and I just think because of AI because of how how fast the world's moving I think everyone across the industry has a bit of responsibility to go actually what what if we cut 10 months off that. If we were going to launch something, if we had to launch something, what would we do?

38:25If we needed to go and speak to a retailer tomorrow, what would that selling debt look like? Absolutely, there's a balance. We've got a principle at Haynes, which is think before do. When you do, go really fast. I think that's really, really important. I think as a mindset within the industry, I think we need to speed up because I think there are opportunities is being missed within it. And I think pace in general, there is a barrier that people think, well, you can't go too fast, you'll make mistakes. And yeah, that's sometimes true. I think there's seemingly across the industry, across lots of industries, this kind of, this barrier to speed that kind of sits inherently within all of us.

39:06Do you find that? Do you think that's true? When you talk about that speed and pace, are you talking just industry-wide? Are you talking the, you know, bigger multinationals? You know, what's the... I think it's a bit of everything. Potentially it's bigger businesses. I think you get some people in those businesses who are fantastic at speed and they get often slowed down. I think actually in the agency world, I think you get some bigger agencies, particularly networked big agencies that slow stuff down. that the individuals don't believe they can deliver something quickly. They look at their process and plan on a page and think we have to do every single thing on that plan, even though things are changing and even though there's different dynamics at play.

39:56I understand scale-ups and startups have a different mentality and some of the stuff that they can do is faster. I agree with that. But maybe that's it. Maybe there is a need to look at those guys and go, yeah, okay, the agility and being that nimble might not be able to be a thing. But actually the speed, the challenge in which we should push ourselves, even if it's just reducing the timeline by 20, 30%, why don't we ask the question for God's sake? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, I agree. I think we can move at pace. And I think technology is evolving so quickly that enables us to move even quicker as well.