How NICE are Crushing Wine Category Codes with Co-Founder, Lucy Busk #28

0:04Welcome back to You Me and CPG and thanks for joining us. Lucy Busk, co-founder of Nice, is here with us. Lucy, very warm welcome. Thank you. You Me and CPG. Do you take inspiration from those brands like Grazer and Glossier and stuff? Do you look at those and think, yeah, I feel like we're on a similar path. I love how they're doing something different. Like is the mindset similar to those guys, you think? I mean, Graza for me is my absolute obsession. I love olive oil and in another life I would love to set up an olive oil brand. I very much look at brands like Graza for inspiration. They have come in and I think they've done a really beautiful job at deciding which sort of category traditions to honor and then also deciding which category traditions to break.

0:50and I think they've absolutely nailed that and I think that's what you do have to nail when you are a challenger brand because if you break every single rule you'll probably turn consumers off so I very much look at businesses like that for inspiration I've always looked at the beauty brands for inspiration brands like Glossier they're brands that I study quite obsessively essentially what drove me to launch the brand was that I was a consumer of wine and when I looked at the category and when I shopped the category it just did not speak to me at all I found it so confusing and so intimidating I had no idea how to read a wine menu it might as well have been in Japanese for me I had no idea how to shop the supermarket wine aisle I just picked the prettiest label and the one that I felt would be not embarrassing to take to my friend's house so what drove me to launch the business was to launch a wine brand that spoke to someone like me I know I like wine I know some of the styles of wine that I like but I wanted to launch a brand that felt far more fun and inclusive and functional and I guess in doing that we did carve out our own part of the category because a lot of the wine category behave in the same way they market the same way they look the same way.

2:06How do you know or work out which codes and cues and kind of traditions to break and which ones to leave? So I think it is a bit of a science and I think it's a bit of a learning process and you potentially get some things right and some things wrong and you generally in life, well, I generally in life learn from my mistakes. I think for us when it comes to the rules we want to honour, we want to honour how wine is made, the process of it, the farming, the care that is given to the soil and the grapes and the ground. We very much take making wine seriously and we are all about producing really high quality wine and we want consumers to know that.

2:53But then the rules that we decide to break are the rules that we don't think serve the consumer. So there's a lot of confusion and mystifying when it comes to wine and almost the most confusing label is what people strive for. So we try and strip all of that out and we try and make things really simple, really clear, really easy to understand, really easy to shop. And then we also try and breathe a bit of new life into the category, which isn't something that's traditionally done. No, I think that's a really interesting point on working out what you can change, what you can't. I think the Olipop founder was on here, David Lester, and he said it's kind of innovations are about 80 % familiar and 20 % new because you flip it around the wrong way or the other way.

3:46As you said, consumers will be confused and be turned off. Why, and this is a question you could ask a lot of categories, why couldn't some of the traditional wine houses, brands in the space have done something like nice? I don't know if they would want to. I don't know if they would want to behave in that way. I think, yeah, the tradition, it's something in wine. It's a category like no other. It's taken so seriously. It is very serious. It is generally run by one type of person. There is very little diversity in wine, and that's a major problem with the industry. So I don't know if it attracts those innovative, disruptive challenger thinkers.

4:35And I think a lot of them are set in one way of thinking and looking at brands like, nice, it's scary. Oh no, how could you talk about wine in that way? So I think it's probably a, the source of it is probably the people within it. And that's not meant to be rude or negative to the industry. Lots of the industry has been seriously welcoming to us. but I think that probably is the source. Yeah, just a kind of entrenched mentality. So have they, that's always a, I thought it's a sociable category, isn't it? Of course it is both in terms of consumption but also the network within it. Has it been welcoming to NICE or has there been some to think, oh, you know, what you're doing is anti-wine or too disruptive?

5:18It's generally been really welcoming. It really has. I've felt really welcomed and so many people say to us, you know, that the category is in decline. It needs brands like yours to breathe new life into it. There have been some funny scenarios. So my father, who sadly died when I was 19, was actually in the wine industry. Oh, right. So when I first came up with the idea, I rung lots of his old contacts and said, I'm going to be putting wine in a can. This is back in 2017. Could you give me some advice? Could you sort of tell me where to start? And one guy in particular, lovely guy called Jim, who was best man at my parents' wedding, just said Lucy don't do this it won't work I've seen this happen 15 years ago and it won't work he wasn't he wasn't being negative to me or rude to me he was genuine he was genuinely giving me his view that's what he felt yeah and it was so lovely he emailed me about two years into our launch and the subject of the email was eating humble pie and he said I've I've stood in Sainsbury's and I've watched people pick up your brand and interact with your products and I'm also following the category data and thank goodness you didn't listen to me stuffy old man thank goodness you went ahead and you did it and it was so lovely that he came back and said that generally the industry have been super welcoming as I mentioned they think it's all about brands like ours breathing new life into the category and bringing new consumers into the category in the next generation of wine drinkers you are always going to get the wine snobs yeah you are that think it will never taste good in a can and think the can alters the taste.

6:55You're always going to get that. And do you know what? We love that. We thrive off that. It keeps us going. In the average consumer, when they go to a restaurant and they pick the second cheapest wine down, you know, that old thing, do you feel like that's a real frustration and tension within people? Is that kind of that confusion? Is that the insight that nice has been built upon? It's a big insight that nice has been built upon. it's sort of when you get handed the wine menu i don't know how much you know about wine i mean obviously because i'm now in the industry when i'm with my group of friends they just say give it to lucy right even now when i'm in the industry i find it yeah really you know it's embarrassing isn't it you don't know what to pick and as you say you then you don't want to pick the top one because it's the cheapest so i think it's generally people go for the for the third bottom one and yeah there were all these great categories out there that were all about simplifying making making it easier to shop and it just felt like wine was so untouched and untapped but also the functional element played such a role in driving us to launch the brand because there are so many fantastic on-the-go options for everything you can even eat peanut butter on the go out of a one of those sort of sucky pouches yeah yeah but with wine the on-the-go option was the 187 mil PET plastic bottle or the cup with the foil and that was crazy because neither of those things are good to drink on the go so sort of we call ourselves a bit of a headache solving business and the first headache that we wanted to solve was solving that on-the-go wine moment with an option that was actually so functional so easy and you were also proud and not embarrassed to be seen with.

8:37Yeah, which is the can. Yeah. Yeah. So that was your first kind of, yeah, your first play was the can. Yes. And thinking about the rise, you know, so business launched in 2019, the rise of RTD has been immense since then. You've kind of tapped into a huge headwind around people drinking RTD. I guess looking at your competitive set then, Are you actually in competition to the moths of the world or, you know, the gin and tonics at Marks & Spencer before you catch a train? Is that your broader competitive set versus wine? We very much focus on wine as being our competitive set. We actually happen to be great friends with the moths of the world.

9:20And it's very much a strategy of ours to be listed next to them. And so, yes, you could argue that you might pick up a moth margarita or you might pick up a nice pale rosé. but we try and really work in collaboration with those fantastic challenger brands. We're working really closely with Moth at the moment on a particular channel that we're both going after very hard. We're sharing lots of learnings and really trying to work with them, potentially even doing some kinds of activations with them. So they are competitors, but that's just generally our approach to that category. It's the RTD wine category and generally the wine format category that we see as our sort of main competitors.

10:02Rob Wallace was actually here just last week. Okay. And he's been on before, but last week he kind of came on to do a bit of a panel about the future of drinking from an ALK perspective. So let's just dive into that as we're there. With the news that consumers are drinking less, and particularly, as you say, wine is declining, this idea, and you've talked about it before, the kind of next generation of wine drinkers, and that's who you're going after. What do they want? How have you tapped into their psyche and their needs in a way that other brands have not? How much do you think about that group as your core target?

10:41We very much think of that group as one of our core targets because wine is so intimidating and there's so much fun happening in the beer category and in the spirits category and in the RTD spirits category. I think what's attracting those consumers into those categories, into the buzz balls and the moss of the world is this real engaging brand piece. So building a brand that they're proud to be seen with, that they can really engage with, that it feels like it's talking to them. So I think that that's where we really heavily focus on trying to recruit this next generation of drinkers into the category.

11:20and we look at all of those guys the makeup brands the grazers the moths for inspiration and ideas because because that's what you do isn't it yeah yeah and and i guess you can talk a lot about what combines a lot of those brands and culture or cultural relevance is is one of the key things that kind of stick those winning brands together understanding culture better than than maybe some of the the larger businesses that don't or unable to tap into culture and hence Gen Z or the next gen of drinkers are kind of warming up to those younger brands. How much do you think about that within the team, cultural relevance?

11:59How do we maintain cultural relevance? How do we create marketing? How do we speak? How do we engage with the generation with a kind of cultural relevance in mind? Is it intuitive or is it planned and thought out? We think about it a lot and we test and try different things. And it's potentially interesting for me to explain something that we've launched this year that's just really hit that sweet spot and it's really exploded so as a business we're always trying to think of new leading and not following in creative ways to introduce people to nice and bring people into the nice sort of ecosystem and we've got a fantastic girl on the team called amy she's 25 years old she started with us as an intern and she's recently become our sort of head of content and she has just so got her finger on the pulse with what's hot and what's not and what's culturally relevant and what's trending yeah and over valentine's day she pitched to us that she wanted to launch just a small event in a pub in london called date my mate and we were partnering with local the beer brand to launch this event and it was all about you as a friend stand up and over two minutes you pitch your single mate on a PowerPoint presentation to a room full of singles and so it's bringing everyone together and she pitched the idea to us and we were like that's really cool let's go for it because generally we love to just say yes to things and test things and she launched the tickets and they went on sale and they were five pounds and they sold out within hours and we were then hounded yeah we had thousands of dms saying please can we get our hands on tickets.

13:36When are you running the next event? We had Idris Elba's wife, Serena Elba, message us saying, guys, I know you've sold out, but I need a ticket. So we gave her a ticket and she came and pitched her friend. And this event, when it took place, we had Time Out down there filming it. We had Secret London down there filming it. This event, when it took place, was just buzzing. You look around the room, no one's on their phones. Everyone's engaged with each other everyone's in the pub drinking and you've got these friends standing up and pitching their friends and it just has spiraled since then we are gaining thousands of new social media followers a day from it and so we feel we've really hit sweet spot people want human interaction you know they want to help their single friends yeah and so this is going to become a big marketing pillar, part of our marketing plan going into this year.

14:34That's amazing. In a really boring consultancy type way, just trying to break down why that has been so successful. Just what are the ways in which you think, oh, that was great. In a couple of years time, you might think, how do we replicate the success of Date My Mate? What are some of the things that we were able to do maybe culturally, strategically that worked there? If you can kind of, can you try to break that down and go, you know, why, why has that been such success or, and how do we replicate it versus great idea from Amy and actually finger on the pulse, but a bit, a bit of potluck.

15:11Oh, and it would have been, everything's a lot of luck, isn't it? I'm a big believer in that. Um, I think people are really fatigued by the apps and I think it's it's it's tough out there being being single and it's hard to meet people it feels like everything for so long has been about these apps and people are fatigued by the swiping they're fatigued by the ghosting they're fatigued by the mucking around and I think this event is all about real human interaction and bringing people together and that's obviously something people are really desperate for you but also how great is it I set up one of my best friends with my husband's cousin and they have got married i dine out on that story i am so proud of that how good is it yeah the feeling of setting yeah because love is one of the best things you can experience how good is that so people love helping their friends as well yeah i think just from my perspective listening to you speak it is actually creating event an event that people are desperate to go to want to go to and i know that clearly doesn't sound like a a wildly clever piece of insight but so many brands build events or experiential that is brand first not consumer first that's another great point and ours is just so and our business is all about putting consumers first because the wine industry doesn't put the consumer first it actually does the opposite and this is it even the logo of nice on the event fly is so small it's all about date my me and it is all about putting the consumer first.

16:45And that's a really good point. The big news also is a big rebrand coming. Yes. And actually the week this podcast is being released, it is when this is all going properly live. Talk us through the thinking, why the brand needed to be redone or rebranded and yeah, what's the kind of thinking behind it and talk us through it. We don't have the cans here because of, I guess, how hush-hush it is. and production planning and all that stuff. But you're obviously able to see it on the podcast. But yeah, talk us through it. Yes, I love talking about this topic. I feel so passionate about it. And it's really interesting because I always describe myself as a sales founder.

17:28I'm not a brand and marketing founder, but I have led this whole project and I've really thrown myself into the brand and marketing side of things. I've led it alongside our fantastic marketing director. And yeah, I've really loved it. I feel a second career in brand marketing coming on for me. But essentially going back to the very beginning when we built the brand, it was Jeremy, my wonderful co-founder and I, that put our own money into building the brand because we really wanted to do that before we raised any capital and we wanted to put our own skin in the game. So we were on a shoestring budget.

18:00We worked with a really fantastic small agency in East London. They sadly don't exist anymore. And they did a really wonderful job. and we loved our brand. It was very much built from a can only point of view because at that time the idea was to just be a canned wine business. Our business has evolved so much further from that moment. We've now got wine on tap, wine in boxes, wine in bottles. And what we were finding was that the brand architecture just wasn't really lending itself to the other format. So we were trying to design a bag in box to look like the can and it wasn't flowing and it wasn't feeling cohesive but the biggest problem that we had with our brand was that it felt quite young and it didn't feel like it was doing the quality of the wine a good enough service um we were really striving for something that felt more grown up more sophisticated still embodied the same energy and attitude of nice which is what people love about our brand but we just wanted it to look a lot slicker and we wanted it to work across all of our formats so we had a false start on this a couple of years ago where we got into partnership with a very big agency and it really sadly didn't work out and it was one of the most painful mistakes painfully expensive mistakes as well that we've ever been through and that the design wasn't there or what the design wasn't there and we just couldn't get there and we kept going and going and going and it wasn't a match because I feel that you've got to really match with the people so we needed to sort of get over that and then we needed to go again yeah and I started this project at the beginning of last year and I went out and I met lots of different agencies and we ended up working and picking Earthling Agency who are ex-JKR yeah yeah they've designed Tom Bruce Tom Bruce exactly Tom and it's great yeah I used to work with him at Heinz when I was jaking up.

20:00Fantastic. It was a match from the minute we met them. And we loved what they'd done with Moju and Jubal and Surreal. And we did our homework and we learned that they were fantastic people to work with. Maybe I should get him on the pod actually. Oh, you should. It'd be great. Yeah, you should. So we kicked off the project this time last year. And it's basically taken the whole of last year. and the end results we just couldn't be happier with but it was very obvious early on that we were going to get those end results because the first body of work that they presented apparently it's all in that first body of work I've been told um and it was true and we it just got better and better and better over time you just saw it straight away just saw it and just the chemistry with us and them we could say anything to them they challenged us they pushed back we we both just got along really well and we have spent the beginning part of this year launching the rebrand just to the trade and the response has just been phenomenal it's so exciting and lovely that they basically are when they come back with the feedback they're basically saying what the brief was yeah wow it looks so much more quality wow it looks so much more grown up this is so exciting yeah for nice and it's opened doors that have been shut for us for for years because the truth is our brand it wasn't good enough it was great in the moment for the first few years but it's not good enough for how the categories evolve today and for the ambitions we have for the business today so yeah just feel like we're on quite a winning streak with new business and yeah it's it's really unlocking things and it's really exciting that's amazing i mean if that isn't a shout out to earthling then then then i don't know what it is oh that's brilliant and the connection we always think that as well like we don't do design but the the relationship between clients and agency is just just so important just for enjoyment of the work as much as anything yeah so that's brilliant just a a point there about i think you've you've talked you talked before about not talking about being premium i guess you don't want to uh kind of go up to the worlds of of the the fancy wines that people are done and don't understand it's a kind of deliberate strategy how do you balance that with that idea of becoming more grown up talking about quality talking about maybe you know the the soil quality or the earth quality or all of that stuff how do you kind of balance that by not falling into the premium world so i think it's important to say that the reason we don't use the word premium is because in wine it It's just, it's hard.

22:46You're competing with bottles of wine that sell for£8 ,000 or£200. To me, that's premium wine. Although I don't even know if the word premium is a word the wine industry would use. I'm not sure it's as applicable for this category. We just really like to describe ourselves as a really good everyday quality wine. That's always what we've done from the beginning. And for us, the quality really comes through the design and especially with our new design, the tactility and the finishes. And you'll hopefully agree when you see the new designs. Yeah. Okay. And then you talked about being on tap. Yes.

23:29So obviously that's, you know, thinking about the trade and going across the on trade a little bit more as well. and I guess opening yourself up for festivals and experiential stuff that you can tap into. How important is a kind of on-trade strategy to you guys versus an off-trade strategy? And how has that evolved over the years? Were you primarily off-trade and have moved on-trade? Is that how it's happened? So both channels are of equal importance to us and they have been of equal importance to us from day one. What we found, Jeremy and I were both from the food and drink world And it was all about, depending on the product that you were selling, it was all about building a multi-channel strategy across on-trade food service, whichever channels were relevant for that product.

24:18What we found fascinating was when we got into the wine industry, we were told by everyone, you cannot be a brand that exists in the off-trade or the on-trade. You have to pick one lane and you have to stay in it. Other than champagne and some rosé brands, there are no wine brands that exist in both because consumers don't want the nine pound bottle of wine that they buy in Tesco to then be 25 pounds in their local pub. That's not something they're looking for. They're looking for differentiation. And we were just told that's how it works. And I think that's an example of where, because we were new to the category and we had past experiences and different ways of thinking, we sat down and we said, that's obviously absolutely ridiculous.

25:06We're trying to build a brand that's known and trusted and recognized in wine because it's such a confusing category. You don't want to risk ordering a bad wine. So that is a rule that we are not going to honor. We are going to prove that you can. That's one to disrupt. That's one to disrupt. So we targeted supermarkets from day one. We launched into Sainsbury's as our launch partner on day one. And in the same breath, I was, because I was just the sales team on day one, I was opening up travel routes for us and on trade accounts for us because I knew that they were going to be our other two big channels.

25:44and we did get some pushback and we do still get some pushback that I don't want a product that's two pounds in Sainsbury's in my you know local um festival but I think we've done a really good job at proving the um power of brand and we've also proven that we can sell for eight pounds at Twickenham and we can sell for two pounds and no one bats an eyelid so it's one of the sort of things I'm most proud of us achieving. Yeah, we're all about a multi-channel strategy. Yeah. And your background is sales. And I think that's a really interesting point. You get a lot of founders who are brand and marketing led first in particular, or product led.

26:31Just thinking about then your attitude towards the on-trade, there is a big conversation across the UK about hospitality struggling, pubs closing, and the on-trade permanently really having changed from what it used to be. What's your view on how the on-trade can find relevance again, reignite, bring back the next generation of drinkers in a way that I guess doesn't also isolate older drinkers as well? What's your view on that? I mean, my view on any question like that is you've got to bring that innovative challenger thinking and you're seeing some great sites out there doing some great things.

27:14I think Frankamanka is one that, you know, springs to mind. They're doing some really fantastic partnerships with the likes of Marth and it's all about engaging content and driving more footfall into the site. And I think the sites that are just trudging along and cutting costs and sort of hibernating are the ones that are going to struggle. And it is all about innovative, disruptive ideas. Yeah. Talking about the trade a little bit more, you act very differently and very obviously versus the rest of the wine category. Is there other categories that you think that's how we should be acting or we'd like to act a little bit differently?

27:53Yeah, so I think what's really interesting and frustrating with wine in the entree is that it's just the forgotten category. You go into a pub and you are immediately hit with all the beer brands, with all the beautiful fonts, and some of them are so innovative these days, the lovely beer mats, and you're hit with beer, and then second you're hit with spirits, and you can see all of your favourite spirits lined up along the back bar. If you would like to have wine, you sort of have to ask for a wine list, which you then don't understand. You have to peer over the bar and the wine is quite hidden behind the fridges.

28:27So we really want to be a brand that put wine front and center within the entrée. So we like to say to the trade that we very much behave like a beer brand. So with our wine on tap, we have beautiful branded fonts and we support in all of the same ways that the beer brands do, whether it's lovely glassware, which is so beautiful that you want to steal it. That's always the objective with glassware. Wine mats instead of beer mats. And then, you know, the wine mats out on the front. So that's sort of our whole approach to the entree. Let's really give wine its moment to shine. You're right. There's a lot of when you talk through the consumer journey, there's a lot of barriers to picking a glass of wine, isn't it?

29:10You can't see it. Yeah. You kind of need a menu. And then you kind of get those weird little like measuring. Yeah. And you don't know. It's just so weird. Like it's just not a very nice experience. And you don't know how long the wine's been open as well, which is another, with wine on tap, it stays fresh. Stays fresh through the taps. Yeah. I think it's so interesting. And obviously brands like Nice, I guess, have to support hospitality in the same way. Do you guys have very close relationships with the trade? Yeah. How does it work from, again, being a sales-led founder? How engaged are you with buyers across the trade versus buyers across the off-trade?

29:50we're really engaged with them and our date my mate series has been really interesting because obviously on a sort of tuesday and wednesday night lots of the trade have much quieter days and those are the days that we are running the date my mates because we want to help the on trades sites solve that headache of gosh how do you get people through the door on a quiet tuesday so the date my mate event has really upped our engagement with with the trade yeah yeah and then And thinking about the culture within Nice, talk us through that. Does that mentality you have translate across the culture? What is the culture like?

30:27So the culture is probably the thing I'm most proud of building at Nice. We've got an exceptional group of 12 human beings who are so dedicated to the business and to Jeremy and I as founders. And they're an absolute joy to work with. And from quite early on, we've always run our business in a very values-based way. So I think one of the most exciting things about being a founder is that you get to set up a business in the way that you feel that business should be run. So that's everything and anything from how well you pay people to how often you do pay reviews to becoming B Corp. And I like to think that Jeremy and I, you know, are good people to work with and run our business, really putting human beings front and centre of everything we do.

31:11we don't have things like rules around compassionate leave because we would always want to support someone going through something like that with really whatever they need um so i think if you asked anyone at nice they would say yeah we've got a great culture that's flexible it's not about you have to turn up at nine and you leave at six if you want to go to your kids sports day go for it you can leave whenever you want as long as you're smashing your targets we're completely happy. So there's a lot of flexibility. There's a lot of trust. And we are very much guided by these four values. So our four values are direct feedback is our love language, hustle hard, be a dog and leading and not following.

31:51So I potentially will just pick out one to explain, happy to explain all of them if you want, but we might be here for a while. I think direct feedback's a really great one. So I think as human beings, it is so difficult to give and receive feedback. I always use the spinach in your tooth analogy. So when you're speaking to someone and you can see they've got spinach in their tooth, you think in your head, oh, shall I tell them? Because I don't want to embarrass them and they'll be really embarrassed in the moment. So you might not tell them. And then that poor person is walking around with spinach in their tooth until they notice.

32:25If you tell them, it might be really uncomfortable in the moment for one second, but how grateful will that person be? And so really early on, we just decided we wanted to be a business that's just all about giving and receiving feedback. So we've built this environment whereby I have very often had interns come to me and say, I actually think that you could have done that better for these reasons. And so we just have this environment where everyone has to be really comfortable with feedback. And we have so many different opportunities to give and receive feedback. And I love it. I love nothing more than when someone comes and gives me feedback.

33:03And I think it's great when you have people that are really receptive to feedback because it shows that they've got a really big growth mindset. They want to get better. You know, no human being is perfect. Yeah, it reminds me of that Pixar when they were building, before they were bought out, had that about their films. They had a room where you could go in and give some of the most senior creative people unbelievably raw and candid feedback about Toy Story or whatever, Monsters, Inc. and the founder of Pixar says that is the reason why we were so successful and it's the bedrock of improvement.

33:43So it's a very similar mentality. You have to have no ego. You said, I think, earlier, yourself and Jeremy, it needs to be a kind of no ego mindset, right? Yeah. Yeah. We don't have egos at Nice. They wouldn't work in our environment. That's really good. um the brand started nice started in 2019 yes it's now 2026 yeah you've had three children uh two about to have a third very nearly three children uh due in april in a very short space of time just a question about juggle and a question about how do you prioritize and and And, you know, it's quite an incredible feat what you've done in isolation of having kids and being a mum, but you've obviously done both.

34:33What are some of the things you look back and figure out how have I been able to juggle? How have I been able to prioritise? Or is it a bit of a blur in the last few years? I mean, it's just a sort of constant juggle and a constant. some days I'm a great mother and I'm probably not the best founder and other days I'm a great founder and I'm not the best mother um it I don't know if I believe in balance my life is just all one big work children family um do I always prioritize in the right way probably not do I make loads of mistakes yes but also just having a really supportive co-founder who's also having a baby his first baby with his lovely wife in August and a team and I try and be really open and honest with my team if I've got a challenge at home or a struggle I'm all about wearing my heart on my sleeve and open communication but I don't get it right all of the time no of course yeah I guess I guess it's it's something that people talk about balance don't they and work life balance and compartmentalization being able to switch off and in reality that's pretty difficult to do i i can't do it yeah just thinking ahead then thinking of the future um both category wise and brand wise where do you think where do you think the wine category goes from from here with the next generation of drinkers drinking more becoming more of them are becoming uh of age drink they're getting more money finally you know it's the i think it's the first generation who have less disposable income than the generation before so they're being very choiceful understandably about what they drink and what they value and what they experience but where's the future with those kind of drinkers coming through where's the future of wine go now with the disruption you've caused and some of the the big brands still doing what they're doing where do you think the future is in wine i think that there are going to be two big areas in wine that we see um develop but i think it will be slow because the wine industry is really slow It's much slower than other categories.

36:39I think there's going to be lots happening around lower ABV products. We're starting to see that already. We are starting to see some really good 0 % products. It is really hard to get that taste of wine. It's so different from beer. They are disgusting. There's not a good 0, 0 wine. No, I've tried a really good one from Marks & Spencers recently, which was super impressive. but I think we're going to continue to see some good innovation there. Is it ever going to taste like a 0 % beer, which honestly I can't tell the difference. I don't know. I don't know if it's scientifically possible. And then I think we're going to see the space I'm more interested in as the sort of moderation options, because wine at 13 % is really strong.