The Power Broker Breakdown Wrap-Up

27:54And there was no, that was your day. There was the two things that you were doing and nothing else. You know, you spent your morning at the forefront of an artistic revolution. And then at night, someone hit you in the back of the head and stole your rent money. Like that was, that was it. Like where they'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah, well, we couldn't walk by Port Authority because there was a guy who stood in the street corner and would just punch people in the stomach. And it's like, oh, this was like a this was like a local fixture. This is not the thing that happened one day. So the the city that he left behind is part of it.

28:22But I don't know if it's necessarily money specific. You had a point that you made throughout the throughout the podcast. Roman, I think bears on here about New York's relationship with money. Well, the common theme every chapter is New York was broke like constantly. So I have a hard time believing that he maybe made it more broke, but it was constantly broke, which is part of his power. It was like he was able to secure this money from a lot of it federal and outside sources and from tolls and stuff like that and bonds and these perpetual like forever existing public authorities. And so that can't be new.

29:01He just was, you know, it was a certain type of extractor of resources. And that's fine when you're in the good extracting stage where there's plenty. But then you hit a wall and all of a sudden that extraction has its most, you know, like painful cost. And I think he was running out his string in the 70s, even if he was an immortal who could live forever and keep going. He just couldn't extract anymore. He had squeezed the juice out of the city and was like, but I still – I mean the fact that his – it feels like his dreams went from the visionary dreams of a young man who has seen things on a scale no one else can see to the visionary dreams of a kind of a tyrant who is – he realizes he has the power to do things that he can't see to the dreams of a madman who is like, why does the city need people when it could have roads?

29:54And like he had one solution for everything. It was Rhodes. And he eventually went – it seems to have gone mad with it. And so I think you're right. By the 70s, he was less of a – he was still an entity to be feared but not as much of the creator that he once was. But you can definitely feel the city of the 70s that the book Fear City and the question is evoking in the title, which is the fall of New York, which you wouldn't write that as a subtitle today. And there's a certain – you can tell the moment it was written in because there's a lot of Robert Carroll going, you know, like the way things are bad now, which really changed in these 50 years in interesting ways.

30:31It didn't get all better, but it definitely changed. And so it's interesting. Yeah, the book is – I think while he's writing it, he's very much thinking of it as a work of reporting of the now and the things that led to the now. There's a criticism of the book that's come up on the 50th anniversary, which is like it's not as accurate about New York's state as it once was. It's like, well, yeah, I hope not. It's 50 years. Like the city can't rebound in a half a century. Then nobody should live there. But he's very much writing it from the point of view of this is the world that Moses made and we're living in it.

30:59And it stinks as opposed to now when it's so much more of that is in the in the rearview mirror because we're all driving on expressways because that's subway is not working right now. Right. This question is from Captain Ben. As someone who grew up in Cincinnati, every time I think of a massive highway that cuts through the center of downtown, I now think of Moses and his acolytes as they spread his gospel over the country. Has anyone found evidence or history on the direct impact Moses' infrastructure philosophy had on other U.S. cities during the mid-century? Yeah, that's something we talked about with Robert Caro, and it's something that comes up a lot of like, how important is this Robert Moses really?

31:37Because this was happening in a lot of places. And Robert Caro's response was that Moses taught people that you could destroy neighborhoods with little or no repercussions in a modern democracy. You could do that as an imperial power. Yeah, totalitarian. Yes. There's a real question, I think. This is something that comes up a lot. I was bringing up Abraham Lincoln. Something people talk about Abraham Lincoln is like, how much was he guiding events? How much was he guided by events? And with Moses, it's kind of similar that he is someone who was very much at the forefront of this switch to a road-based lifestyle, especially in cities.

32:15And he was someone who was working on, again, the biggest showpiece in America, New York City. But at the same time, he was like in the mainstream. He was not pushing against the currents of the culture. This was something that everybody was interested in. I mean this is – he's working before the federal interstate highway system, but that feeling is in the air. And at the 39 World's Fair, there's the Futurama exhibit, which is kind of an exhibit of what life will be like in the future. And driving – commuting between work and home over highways with cars is a big part of that. I mean it's a General Motors thing, which is why it was a big part of it.

32:47But the idea of living a highway-driving-based lifestyle and being able to get in and out of cities easily is already in the zeitgeist. But he manages to like capture that zeitgeist and work with it at a level that nobody else is. And a comparison that came up when we were kind of discussing this earlier today, which I think is still relevant, is that there's a lot of musicians who are kind of doing the same kind of thing as Taylor Swift, but they're not doing it in a way that connects to people the same way. Nobody would say Taylor Swift is like a revolutionary artist who is changing the rules of the game.

33:23But she does what she's doing at this level that resonates and impacts clearly at a higher level for people. And so in many ways, I think Romrose is similar. He's the Taylor Swift of mid-century highway building. You know, he's doing what everybody else is doing, but he's just doing it so much better. You know, he's doing it. He's doing it on a global scale. All I see now in the chat is several people are typing. Yeah, they're very. I'm not saying Taylor Swift is bad. Come on. This is a.

33:56Oh, my goodness. OK. Look, we hear my kids are fans of hers. We hear a lot of it at the house. I love Taylor Swift. You're alone on this island. this is a compliment to robert moses i see

34:13the only thing i've seen like this is when we did a flop house show once where we did the the movie spice world and one of my co-hosts mentioned that the spice girls were kind of an artificially brought together band and the audience booed him so hard i heard that episode That's so good. Yeah. It's so funny.

34:31Okay. So from JML18, how do you think we find the balance between Moses' build-first-ask-questions-later style of infrastructure projects and what many see today as overregulation, which can stymie attempts to undertake majority infrastructure improvements in modern cities? That's a great question. I feel like I'm not – that's above my pay grade. Roman, you've been hosting an urban design and so forth podcast for a while. I think you could talk more about it. Yeah. I mean, you hear this a lot that there should be a Robert Moses for X or there would be good to have Robert Moses pointed in the direction that you want things to go.

35:15And I understand that. But I do think that the nature of politics is this push and pull of regulation and deregulation. And see, I still kind of have a way of blaming Robert Moses for a lot of this, which is like, you know, he broke systems to make things dependent on him and his choices and roads and stuff. And so we had to fight back by creating things that were more fair and more democratic. And so he's kind of at fault for both aspects, you know, for both building things with sort of undemocratically acquired power. And also he's at fault for democratically acquired power for not being able to do things quickly because we were trying to stop future Robert Moses in a lot of these ways.

36:03I get it that maybe it is too far and you just have to go to or listen in on a Berkeley City Council meeting of NIMBYs and go like, why can they stop things from happening that need to happen? And then you read a similar thing happening in the power broker and you wish that those voices had more power in that situation. So the hard part is, is like there is the right balance to be made. It would all work better if more people focused and voted on local elections and paid attention to these things. If they were the people you agreed with, Roman. Boom. Gotcha. No, but I mean, I think both like you just pay attention to it and try to make it responsive.

36:51But you do you need to push and pull. Like, I think all good design comes from top down planning and also a ground up a little bit more informal process of the citizens making their neighborhood as good as they can. But we do get out of balance pretty quickly and easily. And that's a shame. But a lot of the time when I'm reading this book, I'm kind of grateful that Robert Moses wasn't more evil, you know, given all that stuff, what he could have done and that he was still pretty dedicated to parks and things like that was is kind of amazing. You could totally imagine a worse person taking way more liberties and really truly destroying everything and also like self-enriching to an extent that was absolutely mind-boggling.

37:42I think it's – the only thing I have to say about it is that it's so hard to find that balance I think because you can't tell the future. So you don't know the consequences of a thing until it's done really. You can guess at them. You can estimate them. But it's so hard. And so it is easy for us to look back at the power broker and be like, this is a good thing. This is a bad thing. I wish he'd done this. I wish he, I'm glad he did this. I wish he hadn't done this. But it's harder to know that when someone is bringing a new plan to you. I mean, sometimes it's very clear what things are not good.

38:09And sometimes it seems really clear what things are good, but it's just hard. You never can know what, uh, what the real impact of a thing is going to be until, you know, years after the fact. And we don't have time travel yet, but when we do, our decisions are going to be a lot easier to make. So much easier. More of your Power Broker questions answered after the break.

38:37Jane asks, a mock-up of Lincoln Center is that the opening shot of the 2021 remake of West Side Story, looking at the original 1961 film, I learned that the locations used were actual slum clearance sites from Moses Projects. is there any other media that since reading the power broker has you shouting robert moses shaking your fist at the screen that's a good question i i feel like i now look at the the shot in the producers where gene wilder and zero mostell are standing at the fountain in lincoln center and the fountain goes off when he goes i want everything i've ever seen in the movies like and they decide they are going to steal money from all these old ladies to fund this this bad play like now i think of that more as a robert moses moment you know but i have to admit when I watch movies at New York, I spend so much time trying to identify places I've been in person that I don't always have the historical view of things.

39:25Instead, I'm like, I know that street corner. There's a very bad low-budget movie from years ago called Robot in the Family that was shot almost entirely in one stretch of street of Broadway between like 14th Street and 12th Street, where it's just a bunch of antique stores. And I was like, at the time, and I was like, I used to walk that street multiple times a day when I was a college student and watch it. Now, I love this movie, even though it's terrible because it brings me back to those days. You know, what about you? Is there anything as someone who didn't live in New York and so don't have that personal bias blinding you?

39:53Are there things that you've seen since then? You're like, that's a Robert Moses thing. Well, one of my favorite movies is the Bill Murray movie, Quick Change, where he robs a bank, dresses a clown and is trying to get out of the city. And it's all very confusing about how you get to the BQE and how you do this and how you do that. And I never knew until this reread that the villain of that movie is actually Robert Moses. That's the reason why they can't make it out of the city. And it makes me appreciate that movie even more. But that's one I can think of. Anytime I see a kind of, especially those movies from, you know, like I love those movies from the 70s.

40:39And I just feel like that's the city he created. And it's sort of I definitely feel them when I watch like Taken of Palomone, one, two, three and stuff like that. Well, the greatest movie of all time, Taken of Palomone, two, three. I was going to make a mean joke about you. I'm like, well, I know Roman as someone who's not from New York. When you're watching movies that New York, you're mostly going, Garth, look at how big those buildings are. That's right. Look at them big buildings. Yeah. There's a little bit of talk in the chat about the Taken of Palomone, two, three. I will say for anyone who wants a taste of that 70s New York, if you haven't seen the original Take of Film 123, it's such a concentrated, like straight shot of adrenaline of being in New York in 1974.

41:18I really love it so much. It's such a window for me into that time. Anyway, so I recommend it. Oh, it's so it's so, so good. I rewatched it again while we were doing this project and it's it just totally stands up. It also makes you realize how much the subway has actually changed. just like the amount of graffiti the amount of like um stuff that was happening just like the the subways you know definitely have you know horrible attacks happen uh still not to minimize them but they but they've um it's not just in stasis and just gotten worse and worse and worse they've actually like uh improved the subways and their function uh quite a bit i remember watch when i was a kid we used to watch coming to america a lot and there's a scene where they get on a subway car and it's outside of it's covered in graffiti and i remember so well the moment that i saw that movie when like i'd seen it many times i've been to new york many times and seeing it and being like, oh, well, they're not dirty like that anymore.

42:07Like, I remember when they were, but suddenly it was like, oh yeah, the last time I was on the subway, it was much cleaner. This movie is not up to date. Coming to America is not up to date, you know, ripped from the headlines anymore. You know, the city is always changing. As we've said, it's not the same city that it was 50 years ago. And that's mostly a good thing and in some ways not a good thing, but everything's always changing. Related to movies, Ken Stigner on the chat is asking, I'm curious about your thoughts on Ed Norton's Motherless Brooklyn. which R.M. is depicted as Moses Randolph in the book.

42:38Did you see Motherless Brooklyn? Yes, I did. It's such a curious movie to me because I'm a huge fan of the original author, the author's book, Jonathan Lethem. And that book is very much not about Robert Moses and is also not a period story. It's set in the 1990s when it was written. And Motherless Brooklyn went through a long development process to become a movie. And it feels very clear that at some point, Ed Norton read The Power Broker and was like, that's what the movie needs to be about. And so he's trying his best. And I think it's a not entirely successful movie, but I think it is a very good movie.

43:09He's trying his best to make for New York what Chinatown is to Los Angeles. It's kind of like secret history of why the city is the way it is and how it's built on the work of a sinister force, you know, and it's a really well made movie. It doesn't quite do everything it needs to do. But I'm curious what you think about it, because I do think it is a good movie. Well, I just remember showing up to it and I read Jonathan Lethem's book and really loved it. And then you go to see Motherless Brooklyn and the first scene is the first scene from The Power Broker. And you're like, what is going on? Like, it's like almost exactly the same.

43:41You went out to the theater lobby and you're like, someone switched the titles on the movies. This is not the one I thought I would see. And so I did not expect it at all. It was very strange to me. I didn't know like, you know, like copyright wise is like, I guess it's a thing that happened in history. But it was like so it was just weird. It was like an adaptation of a scene from the power broker. and so i also just it was kind of a delight to see it on screen especially as a surprise we we you know we had talked to ed norton's people about getting him on the show because i know he really really cares about this uh stuff and and obviously like he kind of wedged it into this other movie for for no like apparent reason it's not like you read that book and you're like you know what there's an opportunity here to do a period piece about robert moses like it really does feel like Like he smuggled one book into another.

44:29He literally took my Brooklyn's dust jacket and put it over the power broker cover and then brought that into class, you know. But like but I thought it was fun. And, you know, I think Ed Norton is really great. I mean, I don't know. I saw the Bob Dylan movie recently and he's so good as Pete Seeger. Like it's really something like he's usually so nervy and he has so much energy and sort of ferocity in him. And he plays this like, like this, the peaceful calm of Pete Seeger in this way. I've never seen his like, he's just like his whole face is relaxed and his voice is relaxed and stuff. And it's like, I just, I admire him greatly.

45:03So I would have loved to talk to him about it. I just, I just remember being just kind of gobsmacked by it. Just like, I was like, whoa, this is weird. But yeah, I was just kind of delighted by it. And I think it's a good little window into it. And if it brings you to the Power Broker, then that's great. You know? I mean, if it brings you to the Power Broker that's wonderful, if it brings you to Jonathan Latham works, You know, if you go from that to reading Fortress of Solitude, you know, then that's fantastic. Also a really fantastic book, which brings me to kind of the final question that people have been asking us is from Benji.

45:32I feel immensely grateful for this project to bring the Power Broker into my life. But what now? What are some of your favorite books? I have lots of them. Thank you. Give us some. I guess my favorite, I'm trying to, I have a hard time, like, no, they really are depend on my mood. But like my favorite other big long book that I think is worth reading probably multiple times is Lonesome Dove. I think it's just fun to read. I think it's really, really enjoyable. The LBJ books are rip-roaring good. Like, you know, I highly recommend just like going straight through and read them. And I honestly think, I don't, I know it's like, I don't know if it's sacrilege on this final episode.

46:15but I think the LBJ books are collectively – Don't say it, Roman. Don't say it. No, but I – you've made the point to me, Roman, which I think is true, that he is even more in control of his abilities because of the practice he had with the power broker. But those are great books. It's very intimidating because they're huge, but they're so readable. Those Lyndon Johnson books. They're super readable. A lot of the stuff that I think – there's some confusion that we talked through of the timeline jumping that happens to make the power broker work, which he just seems to have smoothed out a way to do that a little less jarring sometimes in the LBJ books where you always kind of know where you are.

46:56He has more of a window into LBJ's thoughts and it becomes a very emotional, very weird, like you spend a long time inside of LBJ's head, which does not feel fun exactly because he's so anxious and needy and greedy. And we never asked this, we never got to the point, but I kind of wanted to ask Robert Caro what it felt like to be inside of LBJ's head because it doesn't seem like a fun place to spend a lot of time. So anyway, the LBJ books are great. If you like other New York books, I think Paul Oster is like one of the great chroniclers of Brooklyn. I think he's really, really fantastic other historians barbara tuchman was my first sort of like love of a history writer i think um the proud tower is exceptional i think joel la poor's it's almost the opposite joel la poor's these truths is a real like survey of american history and um is super fun really really fun my other favorite sort of like journalism book is ted conover's new jack where he he goes undercover as a corrections officer that that one's phenomenal um what about you uh i should have put more time into answer into thinking about this because we because it's a question that is a good question to ask but the non-fiction book that i think i probably have read the most times is the journalist and the murderer which i love i mean it helps that it's a very short book but i love that book and it made me think so differently about the power difference between people interviewing other people, but also just how people interact with each other and what the actions of someone who instinctively starts to want the approval of another person, how it changes them, you know, and how it changes the way they act.

48:42I love that book so much. That's a weird book. That is weird. The whole story of it is very, is very strange. Yeah. Yeah. But the fact that it's a book about another book about a true crime case and the author becomes part of the dynamic of these people you know it is so weird like i just read it recently for the first for the first time and i was just like this is freaky like this is a real like it's just sort of like new journalism you know hitting at this moment like it just feels like the apex of like i'm the person in the story affecting the story feeding back to the story the subject is talking to me about their disappointment and me you know like all sorts of stuff like it's really um twisty and strange it's almost the exact opposite of the power broker where robert carrow was like it was said to the author that da da da like he refuses to even name himself and jenna was like when i was talking to this guy but when it comes to i read a lot of fiction and uh i mean my favorite books of all time are like uh i love the man who was thursday by gk chesterton i love alice in wonderland and probably the book above all books for me is still maybe the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy by douglas adams which is i just am i'm now reading those aloud to my older son after rereading them all last year.

49:54I turned 42 last year. And so I was like, for my 42nd year, I got to read The Hitchhiker's Guide again. It's the 42 books. That's right. And that's a book that I find, it's a short book that I genuinely laugh out loud at, but I find so much meaning in it. There's so much in it that I find very rich and meaningful to me. And that has helped me through times that I need help to get through. And so those are the ones that kind of come to the top of my mind. But I should have thought of more nonfiction books. I mean, favorite nonfiction book, other than that, Charles Lemur, it's Power Broker all the way.

50:23Just PB, Power Broker. I mean, it's still my favorite too. I just noticed his developing craft as he gets through the other books is, and each of them is quite a bit different. The first book kind of feels most like the Power Broker, a lot of deep dive in history to explain things. The second book is like basically a thriller about like him stealing his first congressional election and sort of like putting out the pasture of Koch-Stevenson. And then the Master of the Senate is basically like a large book wrapped around a 350-page history of the entire Senate body history. And it's just amazing.

51:04They're really, really amazing. I think another way, if you want to – short histories, I think sort of an undersung history author I like is Paul Collins. He wrote a book called Benvard's Folly, which I've always just kind of loved. And I just like his storytelling style. There's so many good books. If you want to read a book that is a different take on urban municipal infrastructure and its failings, then I think I would kind of recommend the first four volumes of Katsuhiro Otomo's manga Akira, which is ostensibly about psychic children and biker gangs. But under the surface – and also his horror story, Domu, they are both about massive infrastructure failures for ordinary urban dwellers in Tokyo.

51:52Domu is about this huge housing complex that has – again, it has an old man who's a kind of psychic murderer. And Akira, again, is about psychic children and bike gangs. But so much of it is about people getting rebelling or being crushed by systems, urban infrastructure systems, and what happens when those systems are either not functioning right or when they fail outright, like when a psychic child unleashes a wave of TK force, which levels the city. But to look at those from a municipal infrastructure point of view, I think there's a lot to be found in there. And also it's just top-notch action, top-notch comics action.

52:29To be sure. So we have one little bonus question that Isabella has put in the chat from Schultz saying, I know a few people who heard about this whole thing recently and are planning to read along with the podcast this year. How does the prospect of the breakdown living beyond 2024 make you feel? Makes me feel great. I don't know. Why would it be bad? I don't know. I mean, I like that it's there as a resource. I mean, I feel like if you had to read this for school and wanted some companionship for it, like I feel like it really could be this nice supplement that goes along with it. And it does have the imprimatur of Robert Caro, who has heard many of them, I think, at least he claims to have.

53:12And he thinks that our analysis is pretty good. Like he's never like bickered too much with it except for the one time that Elliot said, I think this is really funny. And he goes, that's not funny at all. It's really serious. I think it's powerful. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, that was trouble for me. But yeah, I think it's, it's, um, I love the idea that this, that this hopefully as a series will not disappear, evaporate that people like people have it in the future. And I, I always thought as a writer that my, my legacy would be in television or in books. And I'm coming more and more into the idea that I think my creative legacy, if I have one, it's probably going to be in podcasting.

53:47And the idea that when the hundredth anniversary of the power broker comes along in theory, someone could still pick up this podcast and listen to it long while reading it. That's very, very special to me. If we can, the metaphor in my head has always been that we are like remoras, the fish that stick their heads to sharks and ride on the shark and eat what falls out of the shark's mouths. If we can stick like remoras on the power broker and be in kind of unofficial, semi-authorized and, you know, a compliment to it, then that's wonderful, you know. Yeah, I totally agree. And at some point, I think we're, They exist in the feed there for 99 % Invisible so we can monetize them and put ads on them.

54:26I do think at some point we will break them out on their own so that they can be sort of like found more easily and not to wade through as many 99 % Invisible episodes to find them. And I do think that kids 10 years from now will find the show and hopefully find it, you know, like put it on there and teachers will put on their curriculums. And that'd be awesome. I would love that. I'm still delighted when I have six children under my care and they sometimes tell me when they get assigned a 99 % Invisible episode. And I'm always really delighted when I hear about that. And so I would love to hear that.

55:03Nobody assigns Flophouse episodes. Nobody has yet done any Troll 2 studies where they need to hear our take on it. Well, that's their loss. There should be plenty of Troll 2 studies. Yeah, people specializing in Nicolas Cage. What's the word? When it's a temporary thing, miscellany. No, that's not what I'm looking for. Never mind. I couldn't think of the word I'm thinking about. So thanks, everyone, for joining us. It's been a real delight. We'll still be on the Discord, like, if you want to ask questions about the Power Broker. We'll still figure out maybe how we're going to work together and do a similar project in the future.

55:39So we'll let you know when that happens. But in general, just catch up on the show in the feed. You know, listen again, tell friends about it. That would be really, really fantastic. And be sure to check out the rest of 9IPIs episodes because we talk about this stuff a lot that will interest you. So I hope that you also listen to the original recipe 9IPIs because they mean a lot to me. And a lot of really, really smart people outside of myself put those together. And also, you should listen to The Farmhouse. Yeah, why not? If you want the opposite of the podcast, which is – and by the opposite, I don't mean me not talking very much, which is – you're not going to get that.

56:19It's just going to get me talking too much. But the Flophouse podcast, the – I've been referring to it as America's first bad movie podcast probably because I'm not sure. But we're one of the first, and we're still going strong. I realized last night as I was going to sleep late from my work that in a couple years we'll have been doing it for 20 years, which seems crazy. We just plan to keep doing it as long as we can. um if you check out uh the flop house podcast please do uh i realize i have another podcast i can mention on the smart list network which is called clueless which is just a it's like a 10 to 12 minute puzzle podcast where i ask the questions and sean hayes answers the questions it's really good i like it a lot thank you it's a fun one to do we're recording more tomorrow uh which means i have to write some more uh and i currently have a series coming out from dc comics it's the harley Quinn book.

57:06That's right. Harley Quinn, America's favorite kind of anarchic lady clown. I'm writing her book for, I guess, the foreseeable future. And I've managed to make this the first kind of 12 issues that I'm working on of it, mostly about gentrification and her trying to stop a developer from changing the last, from getting rid of the last block of her old neighborhood that reminds her of her own neighborhood. So I'm like, I'm like, oh, I managed to get a little bit of like kind of power broker adjacent into the harley quinn comic book i'm very excited about this you should lift a whole scene from the power broker put it in the middle of it i should just start putting i should just start putting like the words from marlowe's in the mouth of the the villain character uh so that's uh on comic book store shelves once a month uh is harley quinn awesome well thank you again everyone for uh being part of this project with us and thank you elliot so much it's just been just such a fun year i've loved working with you i've been an admire of your work for a very long time.

58:04We've been friends that didn't really hang out very much for a very long time. We talked a lot about making plans to hang out and it never kind of came together. And so I'm so glad that we had this opportunity to get together at least once a month to talk about something we both really care about. So thank you everybody and thanks for listening. It's been really a blast. Thank you so much.

58:27This bonus episode of the 99 % Invisible breakdown of the Power Broker was produced by Isabel Angel, edited by committee, music by Swan Mial, mixed by Martin Gonzalez. Make sure you get your Power Broker breakdown merch. There's the Robert Moses Band t-shirt with all the dates of the episodes and chapters on the back so you never forget how much you read in 2024. We've got a great sturdy tote bag that you can carry any of the books that we recommended today. At the time of this recording, the Power Broker challenge coins are in stock. We also got some great merch that's just branded to 99 % Invisible.

58:59It's all really good stuff. It's all at 99pi.org slash store. 99 % Invisible's executive producer is Kathy Tu. Our senior editor is Delaney Hall. Kurt Colstead is the digital director. The rest of the team includes Chris Berube, Jason DeLeon, Emmett Fitzgerald, Jacob Medina-Gleason, Christopher Johnson, Vivian Leigh, Kelly Prime, Joe Rosenberg, and me, Roman Mars. The 99 % Invisible logo was created by Stefan Lawrence. The art for this series is created by Aaron Nestor. We are part of the SiriusXM podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building, in beautiful, uptown Oakland, California.

59:37You can find me on the show on Blue Sky and on our Discord server. We have a link to that, as well as every past episode of 99PI. And please download many, many episodes of 99PI. Please. It would mean a lot. You can find them at 99PI.org. Thank you.