555: A Very Eventful Day

0:00I have something that makes me a little uncomfortable to report to you at this moment. Now I'm uncomfortable. I don't know if I want to know. There's no water in my closet. Yeah, right. No, there's five gallons. No. Different closet on the floor. But no, I actually have been for the last day or so kind of enjoying the fine woven case. You know, I don't have a problem with that. I would say I actively disliked it, but it wasn't the visceral hatred that everyone else has. I thought it was fine. And it's woven. And it's woven. But it's certainly not worth the$60 price tag to me. But I would say that's a lukewarm take.

0:50I don't think that's a hot take. I do have the issue. First of all, I'm loving the USB-C lifestyle with these new phones. like the the amount it could be especially because i upgraded my my phone and tiff's phone at the same time and our kid doesn't have a phone yet so that's the whole family yep you and i are living the best life yeah so it's great so we were able to get rid of almost every lightning cable in almost every place that we had one cars all the different charging locations around the house what about when you have to charge your mouse so here's the problem right so so basically i i only I think I'm only going to really need a lightning cable at my desk.

1:30I've already moved some things. The way I use my laptop as a desktop, I have one cable that comes down and out front from the display. And that has always been my desk iPhone cable for when I have to plug in my phone for Xcode or whatever. And that's always been lightning. And that would also then, you know, occasionally I would unplug it from the phone and charge up the trackpad and the mouse that I have here. Both of which need lightning. Right, right, right. Well, now I just replaced that cable with a USB 3.0 or 3.1 Gen 2x2 Xbox Series S, X1. 2RSTUV. Whatever the heck the modern USB cables are called.

2:08Right, right, right. So now I have this problem where now I have, like, my ports are full. I want to charge stuff on my desk sometimes. So I guess I'm going to have to, like, get either, like, one of those little USB-C to lightning hats for the cable. or I guess just have a separate lightning cable somewhere for my unsightly keyboard and mouse charging or trackpad and mouse charging at some point. Anyway, all this is to say, this arrangement was great until I tried to plug in this USB-C 3.0 QRS-DUV cable into my phone through the fine woven case hole and it does not fit. Oh, no. Oh, no. That's no good.

2:48That's not fun yet. So I'm jumping ahead, actually, but I guess I will tease instead. I'll be professional podcasters, and I'll tease that I finally have committed to, semi-pregrudgingly, a case on my phone. And the USB-C hole is quite large, and I am quite happy with that particular portion of the case. Also, I should point out that, speaking of earlier Craig Hockenberry, he has found some sort of Medusa multi-headed cable that he swears by. I don't think I'll be able to find it for the show notes, but if somebody points me to it, I will link it in the show notes even retroactively. But there's some Medusa thing that he swears by that apparently is very good.

3:25There are a bunch of them, but I don't understand how anybody can tolerate them because it is the definition of untidy cable mess. There is no way to use it tidily because you will only plug in one of those and the other ones are just going to be like dangling out there at right angles, wiggling all around, getting in the way, clacking into your screen. It's just so, it's like, do not want, do not want. Yeah, also those multi-head or adaptable cables tend to only be USB 2. And if I'm going to have USB 2 speeds, I might as well use Apple's nice little woven cable the phone came with. So that's probably what I'm going to end up doing and just tolerate the lower speeds or go back to caseless or get a case with a bigger USB C hole.

4:02But anyway, I understand the fine woven case better now with some time. Honestly, I was going to return it and I missed the return window, so I'm stuck with it now. and uh so i decided let me actually try to use it and when i compare it to the peak design case by the way follow up on that the thing we talked about last week about peak design and possibly like kind of recalling their cases or like you know issuing free replacements they apparently are actually going to do that that that there's been a little more concrete statements from them on that since then so they're that's apparently going to happen and that's awesome um anyway i've been kind of switching off between the peak design case the fine woven and my uh and just no case and i love the way the phone feels caseless i love the way it feels with the peak design case a little bit more than with the fine woven but the p design case has worse buttons and is heavier and bigger and so the fine woven actually provides you know some protection but it's really thin and light compared to like the full you know the bigger peak design case because more you know it's more made for like you know a more rugged lifestyle than i actually lead but if i'm gonna have a case at all which i think i'm still gonna go back and forth on but if i'm gonna have a case at all the fine movement i think is actually it fits my needs better than i expected it to as long as I never mess up the back, but as previously stated, I never look at the back of my phone.

5:30So maybe I just won't know or won't care once I finally do mess up this wonderful fine texture. But so far, it's actually not as bad as I thought it would be. That's a very, very ringing endorsement. You could say it's, as we've said before, the ultra fine woven case. Yeah. Also, kind of just as a curiosity, I decided to weigh and measure the phone with the Peak Design case and with the Fine Woven. When I add the Peak Design case to the 15 Pro, it makes it almost the size and weight of the Pro Max. Cases add a decent amount of bulk, and you don't often think about it. But when you're talking about, you know, the difference between the phones being not that much size and not that many grams anymore, cases can actually, like, jump that difference for you.

6:23So I've been really enjoying using the phone caseless because it feels so good in the hand and it is so much lighter. When I add the Peak Design case to it, it actually makes it substantial, like, noticeably bigger and heavier. And it doesn't make it feel, like, you know, impossible or anything. But you do really notice that bulk. whereas the fine woven case is kind of in the middle you don't you don't not notice it but it's substantially more palatable and doesn't feel like you're ruining the the gains you've made we've made with this phone generation as much as the peak design case so that's why like i think if i'm gonna have a case at all which is still up for debate but if i'm gonna have a case at all i think the fine woven or something else that's thin and light might be the better move what are you gonna do about the fact that you can't plug in the cable probably gonna either you know take a dremel to it and hope for the best or uh i really shouldn't do that because i would mess it up you can get a cable little fit you know you just have to shop based on the size of the connector i know i was trying to have all the same cables like i wanted i had this this grand goal of like all right i'm gonna have all of my charging usbc cables be white because i have these these wonderful anchor ones that i really like that are super flexible and nice like i'm gonna have all the charging usbcs be white and all the data ones be black oh that's clever so that way i can tell quickly you know does this cable support fast data or not and so i had i found these figured these two cables out on amazon that had good reviews or from good companies and so i'm already now it's already ruined like now i'm already gotta i already gotta throw away or move or reassign these black cables that i got to different roles and or get get a different one for my desk then i gotta keep it straight it's a whole thing so my all my plans are ruined did you order this before or after i told my story about the thing not fitting before i don't know that's what you get buckle up everyone because we are going on a journey john what's going on i think about six months ago on this program i discussed the bug i was experiencing i think i brought up on the show because i had had a breakthrough at that point i don't remember how old it is my recollection is that either I had this breakthrough around macOS 13.3 or that's when I started noticing the bug but either way the bug is this sometimes I'll be dragging a window around and it will go like real slow like it's going through molasses like it's not keeping up with my cursor like I grab a window and I'll move it and my cursor will move an inch and the window will be like all right I'm coming I'll get there eventually and for a while I'm like oh this is some kind of weird thing i'll just restart and that'll fix it and then the restarts were fixing and then eventually i figured out uh this bug only happens when i have more than one user logged into the computer and i figured that out just occurred to me one you know like why does it get fixed by restart well when i restart i just log into my account and there's only one account logged in but eventually i go over to my wife's account log into her account to go to the photo library this was before iCloud showed photo library but i still go over there because so much stuff isn't shared um and yeah eventually i would log into my wife's account and then the bug would happen and I figured it out okay and I filed this with Apple and I was trying to you know I think actually I did file it before that and I thought it was something different and then I'm like okay now I know what it is Apple it's easy for you to reproduce you just gotta log in with more than one user anyway that was six months ago and I'm you know obviously no response on the bug report because obviously um but I was like you know this is still uh bothering me uh when Sonoma betas were released remember I said on the show hey I loaded the latest Sonoma beta and I think my bug is gone because I tried it on my Sonoma, you know, external disk that I boot from, and I couldn't reproduce the bug anymore.

9:55And I said at the time, either they fixed it in Sonoma, or it's just because my Sonoma external boot disk was like a clean install, right? And I said, well, I'll find out which one of those things it is when Sonoma is released for Reelsy Reels, and I put it on my real, you know, my main boot drive. And so Sonoma was released. And after our last week's show, I did put it on my main boot drive. and the very first thing i did was logged into a second account and tested whether the bug is still there and it was still there oh no and i said no just like i i was so confident that it was going to be fixed because it was fixed in that beta and i started to question everything i'm like was it really fixed in that beta or did i not notice that only one was i really only logged in but i'm pretty sure it was fixed i don't i don't understand so anyway i'm like no it's still there it's still there in sonoma so now i'm gonna i'm going back into feedback and digging up my bug and like yeah there's still no activity on this bug and it's still here i had basically forgotten about it because i'm like oh it'll be fixed in sonoma not to worry about it but it's not and so i just i was stewing on it for a while eventually i decided you know what every time i talk about youtube you're like oh there's some weird thing you got must be your mac pro whatever you know you make stupid jokes that's how we sound yeah you don't have this problem and i don't hear about other people having the problem either uh which is why you were like oh it must be an intel thing or must because you have a weird mac pro or you have such a strange setup or whatever so i'm like you know what this problem only shows up when you have at least three graphics cards in your computer yeah also yeah i'll get to that um actually even before that let me rewind a little once i found out that this happened in in uh in sonoma i'm like it must have been the fact that it was a clean install like i was still saying it didn't you know it was it was fixed in that sonoma beta but that was like booting off an external disk that had nothing on it right so it must be some third-party software or cruft or crap that's on my boot disk that's doing it and so i spent i think i spent a couple of weeks just tearing third-party software out of my mac just just everything i had previously i had one we discussed i'd ripped out all adobe software because i thought it was that but it wasn't i i purged adobe from my system didn't help but anyway i'm going through the light the slash library folder not tilde slash library but just plain old slash library because this bug is reproducible when you log into fresh accounts i have like these test one and test two accounts that have nothing in them on you know on my boot disk so like it's not tilde slash anything but slash library has lots of crap in it i'm i'm deleting the the you know unsanity window shade.ape files and my slash library directory stuff that predates your use of the mac probably you don't remember like my slash library i mean that stuff was inert it wasn't doing anything but i'm just removing everything i got to the point where i'm diffing my slash library against the slash library that's on the sonoma beta external drive say like what's you know recursive diff like what's what's what third party stuff is in here what could it possibly be right and then over the course of doing that i said well you know i don't really want to be uh diffing against the sonoma the last sonoma beta that's on my external disk i should really update that external disk to the release version of sonoma just you know because what's the point if i find out that that you know something is different about the beta that doesn't mean it's the same as the release right um so i updated my external drive to sonoma i erase the disk i just erase it entirely and put sonoma release on it and i made two test accounts that are not even logged into any kind of apple ids test one and test two uh on that and that's a number thing uh and when i did that i booted into it i'm like yeah now that i'm in here let me just confirm that like on this clean install it doesn't happen and i tested it on the clean install and i was able to reproduce it and that's i'm like oh maybe i was i was this actually fixed in a beta or was i wrong i don't understand how i could be wrong i was like i have plenty of experience with this bug but like was i really only logged into one account but anyway regardless of whether my memory is faulty or whatever sonoma release on a erased disc with two fresh user accounts that have nothing to do with my life or anything and are not signed into any apple ids reproducible that's when i started thinking about hardware and marco was making a joke it's like oh you got a weird mac pro these video cards in it right like i've got to do it i've got to i've got to open this machine up and start tearing stuff out of it oh my word because i want to simplify my machine so i was suspicious of the video cards too because hey it's like a video related you know it's a it's a graphical thing or you know and i do have two video cards in my mac pro one of them i use to drive my monitor the other one is essentially just there for compute which i rarely use i remember i talked about using it when i was like cracking a notes document with a you know gpu powered uh decryption things and that was cool but i'm like no i gotta pull that out so i pulled out my unused video cards now there's just one video card in there didn't help still still reproducible that's when i took mastodon and i said okay mastodon there's got to be somebody out there who follows me who has a 2019 mac pro with with the amd radeon vega 2 video card so someone who matches my config and i wasn't even asking him to have sonoma because i know this reproduced in ventura as well i said does anyone out there have this configuration please look at this youtube video i recorded a new youtube video to explain the bug i narrated it with some terrible microphone so it's awful i'm sorry but i will put a link in the show notes like this is how you reproduce the bug but why did you not use your good microphone yeah seriously the desk at that point had so much stuff on it that i wasn't it because it was it was a mess and you know what it's it's it's easy ish to open this thing but it's a very big and very heavy computer and it's got cables attached to it you have to disconnect all those and there was just no room for me to bring the podcast microphone out it was a mess i had boxes down here because i'm putting away the video card back in its original box and everything like that's why whatever i don't of course you are you're gonna have the thing out of the computer for four minutes and you put it back in the original box i didn't put it back in it's up in the attic now oh okay yeah i mean i figured it's better for cool it's better for cooling and you know i don't practically speaking i wasn't using that extra gpu compute power if i ever needed a hand i can put it back in anyway so i asked i on mastodon someone out there do you have the same config and then people are like oh i've got one i'll try it or whatever you know i think the instructions in my video are adequate for anyone to reproduce it right and that began a very eventful day of me going back and forth on mastodon uh trying to figure this out here is where things turn so a bunch of people said oh i have a mac pro and i'll try it i was waiting for them you know whatever they're going to try today tomorrow whatever at one point friend of the show steve drought and smith said i can't reproduce on my m1 at all i would be curious to hear if it can repro on any intel machine or with any amd gpu you know what i've heard this from so many people like i can't reproduce this it must just be your weird setup or whatever uh then he continues what kind of mouse trackpad are you using and what screen resolution and my mind stuck on that first sentence what kind of mouse trackpad are you using hmm like you know what i hadn't considered that at all at this point why would i but as soon as he said it something my mind latched on to him said oh my god so i disconnected my mouse from my computer i went over to my wife's computer i took her mouse which is a logitech old logitech thing with a little like usba dongle thing i brought it over to my computer connected her mouse to my computer could not reproduce the bug so it's so it's your old stupid mouse that's the problem so i'm like yeah so i posted on mass i'm like i cannot believe this but it's my stupid microsoft mouse that every place wants under warranty it's the stupid mouse because i didn't have the hardware problem with the mouse i got it replaced under warranty uh you know and i had actually bought a backup of it because i remember i like this mouse because i like the shape of it i like how it feels like everything about it but apparently you know i'm like it's a stupid mouse it wasn't the operating system at all that's why nobody can reproduce it because they don't have my stupid mouse it's got to be the stupid mouse i was like i felt an i was annoyed but i felt an incredible amount of relief and the eureka moment seeing the bugs like i can't reproduce it anymore my wife's and she's got a it's just an old crappy logitech mouse nothing special about it i can't reproduce it with her mouse that must have been it must have been my mouse but you know being a career programmer i didn't let it go at that and say i'm satisfied that i've solved this problem let me just close that feedback and say never mind apple it was my stupid mouse you don't have to worry about it i'm closing this feedback i think i already made that mistake once when i closed this but i thought it had been fixed but you know anyway i'm like let me just if if it really is the mouse this should be pretty easy to confirm and so then i hinted over the course of the day i did a long series of experiments and it was a depressing series of experiments because i'm not going to go through it all you can follow the threads on on mass and if you really want to but it is a roller coaster lots of people are still finding the original i'm like oh it's my mouse like ha i'm glad you figured it out i'm like uh keep reading here's the deal with this book has nothing to do with my Mac Pro has nothing to do with Intel also kind of sort of has something to do with my mouse but not in the way that you think over the course of the day many people were able to reproduce it and based on their responses I was able to reproduce it here are all the places and ways that I was able to reproduce it I reproduced it on my Mac Pro of course in a clean install of Sonoma and in my regular install and by the way on the clean install the reason I do that clean install is that installation has zero third-party software on it nothing no apps no nothing it does not have a shred of software from anybody other than apple on it and by design so everybody who was saying it must be a kernel extension or a logitech driver or whatever some people did say when you plug in the mouse it must download a driver from logitech i'm like i'm not sure about that but anyway um i was able to reproduce it on my intel macbook air running ventura i was able to reproduce it on my wife's mac studio which is an m1 max running Sonoma, I was able to reproduce that on all of those computers with the following mice.

19:30Logitech M705, Logitech MX Master 3, Logitech MX300, Microsoft Precision Mouse connected through USB and Bluetooth, and Apple Mighty Mouse. I was trying to find an Apple Mouse. Surprisingly difficult in my attic. I know where one is, but I'm not getting it, because my Mac Pro came with the Apple Mouse, but it's never been opened, and I'm not taking that out. Nobody in your house believes in the Magic Trackpad? uh that's the thing i went let me i said let me go get my wife's old 5k iMac and i opened the box she bought that with a trackpad so it doesn't it didn't come with an apple mouse it came with an apple trackpad right um and it's not wasn't in the box you must have it somewhere or whatever anyway this is over the course of the day because at first i thought it's just my mouse my mouse is broken and then i'm like oh but it only happens on my mouse when connected through usb so it must be it must be a usb thing and not bluetooth but then i was able to reproduce it in bluetooth now here are the parameters here here the interesting part of this um so and that's the reason why this is this is still a legit apple bug but the reproduction parameters are interesting the quote-unquote easiest way to reproduce this is of course the way i saw it first on my mac pro with my microsoft mouse connected through usb which is how i use it that reproduces super easy and the steps are basically make sure at least two users logged in uh what one of the users nothing nothing open on them just they don't have any apps open any windows open just nothing they're just logged in no third-party software on the second user open 25 windows any windows in any app doesn't matter what it is and then just grab any window and try to move it and you reproduce the bug and this is i try to make this clear in the video but like this is not about the system being overloaded hot runaway processes the system is idle nothing is happening activity monitor before you begin dragging a window around shows nothing zero percent everything nothing Steve Trout and Smith actually made an app that just opens NS Windows with nothing in them.

21:26As if, you know, if a text edit window isn't lightweight, it doesn't matter what the app is. Just a bunch of windows, right? So 25 windows. 25 windows, complete idle system. No third-party software. No applications. No nothing. Nothing is running. 25 windows. USB connected Microsoft Precision Mouse. On the far end of this spectrum is Logitech Mouse connected with their little RF dongle on an M1 Mac Studio. You need about 200 windows to reproduce it there. And all those different combinations that I said between all those different mice and all those different computers, pretty much at every data point, 25, 50, like it's just a question of how many windows it takes.

22:06What are the parameters there? A lot of people have theorized that it is the polling rate of the mouse and the higher the polling rate, the easier it is to reproduce. Certainly it seems like the speed of the hardware might be a factor because the m1 max max studio is obviously the fastest computer in the house and that's the hardest to reproduce on because the intel macbook air is slow and my mac pro is slow these days too as far as cpu stuff goes not gpu but basically and other people are writing in and saying i've got the magic mouse i've got an apple trackpad someone wrote in recently and said they were able to reproduce it using the built-in trackpad on their you know on their macbook pro hmm so this is an apple bug and the reason most people don't see it yes haha because they don't open a lot of windows but the combination that is the easiest to reproduce is with a mouse connected with a usb cable to an intel mac pro that's three people on the planet john right like because how many people have mac pros and if they do how many people use a mouse instead of a trackpad maybe a lot but how many use a wired mouse like it's even hard to find wired mice and when my mouse is when this microsoft mouse is connected through bluetooth i'm like oh it doesn't reproduce over bluetooth no it's just harder you just need to open more windows and i think a bluetooth uh you know the microsoft precision mouse with bluetooth on my mac pro was like 50 windows or 75 for reproduction uh you'll look at the youtube video this is not one of those things where it's like oh it's hard to catch and it does it sometimes or whatever it is 100 reproducible trivially instantaneously always all the time it never doesn't do it and it is super duper duper obvious it's not subtle it's not hard to see it's not hard to reproduce you don't need to do anything fancy it's a three step reproduction so it was a long depressing day where i thought i had figured because i would have you know as much as it would annoy me if a mouse died i would love to be rid of this bug and say it's just my stupid mouse throw them out the window buy a new mouse look behind me never you never look back but no it is a legit operating system bug of some kind the bad part is that to reproduce on a modern computer with sort of the default apple setup which is like you know a non-wired mouse or trackpad and a modern computer you do need a lot of windows 100 to 200 depending and apple could look at that and say okay fine so our window manager freaks out with 200 windows but we don't care and i'll say but what about my computer that freaks out with 25 windows and i spend most of my life with more than 25 windows which is why i saw it immediately like right now i have way more than 25 windows open i'm never at just 25 windows what about my computer Or, oh, just don't use the USB mouse.

24:42But I want to use USB mouse. I like it better than Bluetooth. It's more reliable. I don't have to worry about charging. So, Apple folks, if you're listening, I know some people looked at this bug and they're like, they couldn't figure it out. But we, as a community, have collectively chased this bug down so far now. Like, how much more do you want? It's served up on a silver platter. Reproduction steps are literally three steps that, now we've tested all these sorts of parameters. is like you can do this apple you can reproduce i was going to ask you to before you came on the show today if you wanted to log into a second account so you could reproduce this without opening tons of windows but guess what you can reproduce it while only being logged into one account that's how far we chase this down and if you're only logged into one account you guessed it you gotta open more windows right uh like with two users logged in uh you know 25 windows will do it on mac with one user logged in i think it would probably take three or four hundred so So obviously having the second user logged in makes it way, way, it's not linear.

25:39It's not like, it's not like you divide it by two or whatever, but yeah, some people, especially I tried it on like my, you know, dinky Intel MacBook air. You can reproduce it with one user logged in. This is just a problem with the window manager, right? Or something, something having to do with dragging windows around, uh, combined with like the thing that checks for, for where the cursor is has some kind of terrible performance thing. And this is new. This started around Mac OS 13.3 ish. I can't nail it down exactly. uh this didn't happen in 12 11 10 or all the other versions so something changed something is broken apple needs to fix this i would love for something to happen related to this bug uh we'll put the number in the show notes if any apple folks are still listening it is fb 132 11706 i filed a new bug every time i find something new i file a new bug with a better title unfortunately this one was filed before i did all the stuff you just described there so the title is window dragging is laggy and jumping and more than one user logged in i don't know what i would call the new bug it would be like window dragging is laggy and jumping you and there are a lot of windows i mean i what what a what a terrible terrible ongoing journey i mean now that now that the world knows about this kind of sort of you'll you'll probably will probably never see it but like now that you know it exists you may find yourself creeping up to it like log into a second account and you just may end up with enough windows open where you just you'll hit that threshold and you'll be like hmm is my because you might look at it and lots of people are saying yeah i have that too and my computer is overloaded no that's not it that's a different thing your computer being overloaded is an entirely different thing and so i think if you guys ever got to the point where you had 75 150 windows open and you logged into a second account and then all of a sudden window dragging was weird you'd be like huh my computer must be overloaded maybe i should reboot and you'd forget about it but now you know better now you know that even if your computer was 100 idle and the only thing open was text edit with that number of windows open your window dragging is going to be super laggy and slow oh the other fun thing by the way is the uh the jumpiness that is in fact the window snapping thing you know when you drag a window in mac os and it tries like line itself up with its neighboring window they added that in like Sierra something, or maybe High Sierra, you can disable that by holding down the option key.

27:55And when you hold on the option key and drag windows around, the jumpiness disappears. What you're left with is the massive lag. And basically the massive lag, the jumpiness comes from the fact that there's massive lag and the jumpy, you know, like the snapping is lagging, is ahead of where the window actually is. And it flips out and starts going all the place. Anyway, if you hold down option, you will just get the molasses like lag and not get the jumpiness. So that totally shows that this is a well where is the problem is the problem in the window manager or is the problem in the you know human interface device driver thing probably somewhere in the driver thing because the window server is probably doing the right thing it's just probably getting bogus input from the mouse but further news as we continue to track this down but the last revelation was it's when more than one user's logged in and the new revelation is actually that just lets you see it more easily and actually every single mac and every single pointing device in the entire world is susceptible to this.

28:46It's just a question of what it takes to make it reproduce. I mean, really, John, this is the reaping or whatever of your life choices. You're using an Intel Mac that you spent too much money on. You're using a wired mouse like it's 1996. I mean, hell, you're using a mouse like it's 2003, much less a wired mouse like it's 1996. I'm never not going to use a mouse. Never. uh see i said that i was that guy until five or ten years ago and i am all in on the trackpad trackpads everywhere man why anyway it happens with a trackpad sure it does that's what i'm saying like really you could you could say this is my punishment for opening too many windows but 25 25 is not too many go ahead hit the little uh mission control and count your windows i bet you all have more than 25 windows open right now uh not let's look like as in not hidden i think i have eight well yeah that's the thing they do need to be visible i suppose you can just do hide others and say, I can do hide others and say, look, I have one window open.

29:38It's the Zoom window. But no. I have five. I have eight. All windows, not just the ones that are visible. Do show all. Yeah, I have eight. Show all? You have eight windows? Yeah, I have one Safari window with two tabs. I have one Chrome window with one, two, three, four, five, six, seven tabs. Visual Studio Code, which I use with show notes. Textual, which is the IRC app. Zoom, Audio Hijack, Slack messages. That's it. That's everything. How many is that? Eight. That's only eight. Oh, actually males. I'm sorry. Males hidden. I'm sorry. I don't know why you guys buy fancy computers. You might as well just get an iPad.

30:14Wow. What are you doing? Why? What are your 20? Okay. Okay. Tough guy. Let's let's do it. Let me hear your 25. You don't want to do this. You really want to hear your 25 windows. Let's hear it. All right. It's way more than 25 oh my gosh google chrome uh let's see well with 3 000 tabs right so that's your first we're not counting tabs we're just counting windows one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve thirteen oh my god stop you have 13 chrome windows what the hell is wrong with you so what's the context hold on yeah okay i know we did this before but like but this is 13 different windows with tabs within each one like what are these different projects you're working on like what's how why why the split here uh what why do i use uh safari and no no no how do you end up with 13 windows 13 windows for the same browser each of which has tabs in it yeah yeah so there's my main chrome window which has a fixed set of tabs in it that never changes right so let's ignore that one um there is the window with a bunch of tabs that was when i was trying to debug uh call recorder problems call recorder by the way does not work in sonoma call recorder skype i sent a text or email about it i'll close that one now um there is me looking up uh information about the release date of ventura and a bunch of tabs when i was talking to uh some folks about this just trying to pin down when this happened uh there is the page uh with a bunch of tabs related to bbedit language servers because i was debugging some issues with the php language server marco and bbed i didn't write it i know i'm just saying why am i doing it why do i why do i have a php language server installed for bbedit right now all right um there are a bunch of uh pages related to pearl unicode because i was doing some research for a tweet i posted about unicode stuff i can close that one now uh there is a page with a bunch of tabs related to sendable because i was messing with strict concurrency in xcode maybe we'll touch on that uh some point in the future that that was part of my day today as well yeah there are there are windows uh like these windows are like themed they're like all the tabs in this window are about sendable you know and how do you do how do you do sendable with key value observing because it's an older api anyway don't like that that's the answer don't unfortunately a lot of my apps are based heavily on key value observing there's literally no other way to do it anyway there is a page open with the the youtube studio and the YouTube page is related to my video because every time I update the feedback, I put what I ever put in the feedback, I put it in the description of the YouTube video for this bug.

32:46Well, here's the thing, though. I kind of do want to make you go through all of this BS, but what I don't understand is there was a long time ago, I would say roundabouts of May 1st, 2015, that a wise man once said you should have empathy for the machine. There's no empathy here. You don't need all this open. You don't need all of these open. You know why there's empathy? Because I endowed my Mac with 96 gigs of RAM. I know you can't have that much in your computers, your tiny little computers, but I can have that much. I have 64 gigs of RAM. It's not that different. Well, I have 96 and there's plenty free.

33:20Oh my gosh. Anyway, I could continue enumerating them, but yeah, I will clean these up as I go through and close these things. But the language server thing from Beep Edit, for example, I'm not actively pursuing that now, but occasionally it crashes and stuff. So I want to leave that open so that when it does crash, I can go consult it. Anyway. By the way, real-time follow-up, the macbook pro is currently available with up to 96 gigs of memory oh see ya but not yours well oh gosh uh move those goalposts john keep moving them keep moving no i said your computers yeah he's got he doesn't have the m2 right no i have the m1 but still like it was never offered with 96 but the m2s are the ones currently available in the same family and are in our puny little laptop anyway anyway i have a similar number work windows open in safari for the same reason bb edit uh bb edit oh geez too many on two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve oh my god windows 42 bb edit windows 42 baby wait do those have tabs in them no you need an intervention you need an intervention now if you're working on a project uh you know like in like you know a directory uh for a web app or whatever in bb edit do you does one window hold like all the files you switch between them or i rarely use that interface i did when i was for example working on the uh the cms stuff the atp cms i did the one window project directory thing when you were programming php yeah but that's not what i prefer i prefer separate windows as you can see i prefer separate windows there's bb at windows at this point there's a set of bb at windows that essentially always have open just always this is lunacy to me i mean i have that with textmate too but there's like four or three of them at most times like it's not yeah but i have a lot more stuff apparently stuff going on there's one there's one slack window there's one messages window there are two ivory windows the the amount of like balls i have in the air right now are at an all-time high in my life like i've i've never been busier and doing dealing with more projects and obligations and tasks that i'm doing right now and i think i have if i if i include all the hidden windows maybe i might have 15 windows open on my entire computer yeah no i I've got more.

35:26I mean, there's one feedback assistant window. There's one Zoom window, one textual window, one system settings window. How many terminal windows? About 10-ish terminal windows. John, you are aware that one can close one of these windows and then reopen them. I do. I clean stuff up. In fact, while going through this thing, I closed a bunch of stuff that I was done with. I do occasionally go through and close things. Once a year? the reason you need a$17 ,000 Mac Pro is because you are incapable of cleaning up your own mess that's not why, it's fine and by the way, you're saying, oh but how do you do that isn't that more than 25 windows, isn't everything broken aha, but I only have one account logged in so everything's fine, it would take way more windows than this to bog it down wow, I don't even know I know we went over this, what was that, episode 96 I believe, I remember I got a lot of windows, I use it all, I use all the screen space, and I know you know this but you can't actually hide them, you don't need to see them all at the same time but i don't understand why you can't like i mean i mean i did write two separate programs for dealing with windows and pulling them forward and hiding them and making them go away like there's you know there's a reason both of my applications have to do with windows and the third one i was talking about writing but can't it would also have to do with window management i love like you know so part of part of you know the challenge of writing a podcast app as a kind of i would say i would call myself kind of a moderately heavy podcast listener um is that there are people who use my app that have collections that are like 10 times the size of mine.

36:57And so it's hard for me to actually know what the app is going to be like for them. And it's hard to architect the app in such a way that it performs well for them because I'm not seeing that every day. John has no such problems with his apps because no one is using John's apps with more windows than John. But the thing is, what I do get for reports from my thing is people are using apps that i've literally never even heard of that do ridiculous things like i don't even know what these apps do i've downloaded so many apps because someone will say hey i was using this 3d app you've never heard of which one that i downloaded recently maybe it was rhino 3d i think i've actually heard of that one maybe it was something different but it's been around forever yeah but they'll no they'll send me these apps there was one that started with an a there was like some kind of audio editor that was not audacity um and they'll send me them and say just download the demo and do it you know and i do it and i but but like do you leave it open forever after that like oh i just i don't know i can't figure out how to quit no i mean i delete that stuff i always look at the c is this gonna put crap on my system anyway sometimes i boot into another disk to do it because i don't know what they're gonna install but it was just anyway you do get you still do get reports of like hey this app does some weird thing that interacts with it and that's those are good reports but yeah in terms of opening windows are pretty good to go there there's the brent simmons stories they told you years ago that i used to use net newswire and you'll be shocked to learn that i had a million subscriptions in that newswire and he would uh i would complain to him about like hey i'm using the app and this thing is kind of slow he's like what do you mean it's slow it's lightning fast i'm like well eventually we get to how many subscriptions do you have so i think he wrote a blog post about that once like yeah there's a computer it's i don't like if you don't put a limit on the amount of things you can have i will use the computer to do what computers are good at which is remember a bunch of stuff for me so i don't have to john at what point do you have an are we the baddies moment at what point do you rather than bending everything to your lunatic setup 25 windows is not a lunatic setup i will stand by that i know i have a lot of windows but 25 is not a lot it is just not okay i'll let that go i mean because i mean again look at the video 25 when it's not like oh it gets a little bit slower 25 windows it is unusable at 25 windows just mad like like as in look in the video at one point i tried to like reset to like oh let me just drag this window back to where it was i can't physically can't put the window back where it was because it is so messed up like watch you've seen this video like the recording where i said let me just put i'm trying to put the sticky note back where it was i literally can't do it that's not like oh you're just annoyed because it's a little bit laggy when you have a million windows no it is unusable with 25 with two users logged in but again two users logged in is not unheard of and i use that frequently so i think my report is legitimate and i think apple should fix this but i fear because i am using an holder computer and because it's intel and because blah blah like they'll say well it's so much harder to reproduce on the m1s that we'll just sweep this under the carpet and say this is not a big deal no one will ever have 200 windows open i agree with you that this is a legit problem and it legitimately should be fixed as much as i'm snarking and giving you a hard time and and by the way like forget forget about like the problem this is a sign that something is wrong in the code like it's not like the computer quote-unquote can't handle it because it's just too much it should be able to handle this should be nothing this and it was like in you know in mac os 10.2 jaguar you could have 25 windows up until the user logged in and it would go fine like i'm not asking it to do it just seems oh you have a lot of windows that's kind of like the uh the naive person's understanding of computers oh i think my computer is overloaded because i have too many windows open no that is not a thing like things that that you can have one window open with the infinite loop in javascript from some Facebook page.

40:28Yeah, that can probably, you know, make your things. But like the number of windows open seems like a lot to us because it is like visually oppressive. But as far as the computer is concerned, 25 empty text edit windows is not stressing it at all. Just it's not. That's the thing where it's like you have yourself to blame because you're overloading the computer. This is not overloading the computer at all. I agree with you that this should be fixed. I agree with you. It's indicative of a deeper problem. but golly at some point i wonder if maybe it's time to rethink your strategy here a little bit there big guy so my strategy should be i'm going to make sure i use less than 25 windows so i can drag them without no all kidding aside i i think the strategy is and this is going to sound snarky and i'm trying to take off the snark hat it was fully on my head earlier but i'm trying to take it off now like log out of the other user if you're done using whatever it's that's so annoying to do because I go back and forth.

41:22It's so annoying. How often do you go back and forth? Let me tell you why. This is related to another book report. Why do I have to leave my wife's account logged in? Because if I don't, it will never do face analysis because she has to be logged in for the conditions to be just right for the stupid face analysis thing to run. It's like, oh, you know, don't use the photos app, but make sure you've run it at least once to launch the photo demons. But the user has to be logged in. I'm pretty sure if she's not logged in, photo analysis will not photo analysis d will not run against her library why doesn't her library live on her mac studio it does it does live on her mac studio so is there a reason she has to be logged into your mac pro all the time when i well she's not logged in all the time but when i'm working on photo stuff on my computer and she hasn't launched photos like recently or and also i'm not sure how much how long it takes for that stuff to sync like i'm doing work in the photo library on my computer on her account oh so i don't have to be hogging her computer that's the whole point of it you know what i mean and i could go over to her computer and say let me launch photos and let me launch activity monitor let me make sure because if she's using her computer photo analysis d is going to be like oh i can't run now because she's using the computer and i'm only supposed to run the background priority you know it's it does help that it is on her computer and i have when she's at work gone and tried to make it run on her computer but that's one of the reasons why i'm constantly leaving her logged in and you know i don't want to leave her logged in because it makes my windowing experience terrible, but sometimes I have to leave her logged in.

42:44And anyway, I hop back and forth. Like, let me do something over here. Let me do something over there. I wish I could hop back and forth faster. I kind of wish fast user switching was even faster. Remember when I used to do the cube rotation effect? I was annoyed that that slowed me down. But anyway, the point is, these are features of the operating system. I'm using the computer. It's supposed to be able to do these things. I'm not going to, like, shrink myself down to work around a bizarre bug in the IO subsystem of the recent versions only of the Mac operating system. i guess i'd be a little less patient if this hit me like you know whenever i run into a problem with something that apple's doing that i can like modify some habit or way i'm using something to just completely sets up the problem i'll usually just choose to do that like yeah i'll complain about it on the podcast i mean there's only one user logged in now like i don't leave i as soon as this bug hit in 13.3 i stopped my old habit of just constantly leaving her logged in for example on my wife's computer like every user is logged in all the time because why wouldn't because just you know it's convenient because it's a kind of a shared computer and you know uh but yeah i used to leave multi-users login now but since this bug happened i what i've changed is i am the only logged in user unless i actually need to be doing something on her account i don't know i feel like this is the same as all of us who when we were all giving mike garbage because he was having some sort of issue with his phone and everyone just kept telling him to you know what was it a dump everything and like start a new i forget the term that we were using for it like restore the phone Oh, I'd be totally willing to do that if it would fix the problem.

44:09But as we know now, it would not. Well, but I feel like what's happening is we're all saying to you, change the way you're using the phone. Excuse me, using the computer. And the same way we were saying to him, just try to restore. Well, John, just try to change the way that you use the computer. I will not. I will not. But change it in one way. Less than 25 windows is a non-starter. Like, just non-starter. It's never going to happen. Never. Like, why would I do that? I could have more than 25 windows open on my Mac Plus in the Finder. I mean, come on. 25 windows you don't need you don't need all of these open concurrently you may want them but you don't need them to be open concurrently but that's but that's what the computer is doing for me i don't i don't know it isn't apparently i don't i don't need to have more than one application open at once i lived a long time uh especially in terms of my former years where only one application could be open at a time you just quit one and launch the other one and it's fine but come on that's what computers are for why not also just like try a different mouse that has a higher limit you know like that like there's so many there are so many options that you can easily sidestep this yeah i mean the the limit unfortunately on my computer going going to i've tried all the mice i have access to the limit doesn't go up high enough i can get it up to like 50 or 75 but like it's not it's not far enough up they're like oh i won't see this anymore i'll still see it because it's it is kind of a slope it's not like it doesn't happen and all of a sudden it happens there's a gradient right so with 25 you see it less with bluetooth with 50 you start to see a little bit more with 75 it's back in full force it's it's not great and also like bluetooth maybe it's because my mac is farther away i don't know like i always feel like bluetooth is not as reliable and smooth as usb at least under this stupid mouse and the other mice as we've established i don't like the shape of them right so i like you know it's it's hard like i was off i was i actually installed i was like okay i'm gonna go bluetooth now because bluetooth solves the problem before i had figured out that bluetooth didn't solve the problem and i was all ready to go all bluetooth because i'll deal with the lag if this just solves it, or start shopping for a new mouse.

46:04But once I determine that this didn't solve the problem, no, this is not Apple to fix. I fully agree with you. This is a real problem, and they should fix it. However, it's a difference of philosophy of, like, what do I do as the person suffering from this problem? I can bang my head against it forever, or I can just sidestep it. I'm not suffering from it now because only one user is logged in. The common case now is only one user is logged in, and so I don't suffer from it oh my because with one user logged in like it's not linear it's not like i said with one user logged in doesn't take twice as many windows it takes like five ten times as many like right now one user logged in and i have what 100 windows open and it's fine so this is how i spend my most of my time using the computer it's just that every time i have to go to my wife's account i basically have to like now i'm i'm intentionally causing this thing to happen and i'll be like this for the rest of the day so remember if you're going to move windows around hide windows first that's the real modification that you guys haven't touched on that i have to do because remember it's just the visibility of the windows not the fact that they're open so command option h is your friend because that essentially solves the problem if you just constantly hide others or option click away from one app to another it's the it's how many windows are visible on the screen because if they're not visible on the screen the windows server doesn't try to snap to them and doesn't do all that like and actually i don't know why the visibility of the windows affects the the mouse tracking part but it does like experimentally visibility of the windows is the determining factor so that is the modification of behavior that i probably should be doing more often hiding other windows not closing them oh my word at what point are you going to just dedicate a day or two to doing a manual git bisect and trying to figure out exactly when this was introduced i don't have the source code to the operating system i know that no no not a literal one i'm saying like i'm i'm both kidding and actually not kidding you said that it was around what 13.3 or something like that if i forget what version it was yeah yeah you could go to version 13 to install it see if it happens version 13 2.1 i don't know if that's even a thing but you know and you could try doing what it's hard to get those installers i could do that but like honestly that's like what i don't care like i don't think that's going to help that much and if apple cares they can figure that like it's their it's their thing like well yes but here again like jokes have left the room you've put in an inordinate amount of work trying to figure out and narrow down what this is and i commend as much as i'm giving you a hard time i commend you for it because I wouldn't have that freaking patience.

48:23No, neither would I. I think Marco was saying that he would. Exactly. I mean, I let it lie for like six months figuring out, you know, either it's not a big deal or it'll be fixed in Sonoma because it seems like it's fixed in Sonoma. But now that I know that it's not, it came roaring back. I'm like, no, this needs to be addressed. Again, I genuinely admire your tenacity as much as I'm giving you a whole pile of poop. I genuinely admire your tenacity. But at this point, like, I feel like if Apple isn't doing anything about it now and there's maybe a bunch of innocent reasons and a bunch of not so innocent reasons.

48:50I mean, we don't know if they're, they might be doing stuff about it i just don't know yeah wouldn't it be nice if there was some feedback uh but anyways it's been six months case yeah right a mere six months it hasn't even been a decade but i almost wonder if you went and did this quote-unquote get bisect and said it's in 13.2.79 or whatever that i i wonder if that would get them to be i was gonna say less lazy but that's not fair i wonder if that would just get i mean they'd have to like diff the operating system diff Sonoma against 13.1? Like, they don't, because they don't even know what the problem is.

49:21Like, I'm not going to tell them how to debug this, because the operating system is huge. There's millions of lines of code. Like, you know how many diffs there must be between 13 point something and 14? No, that's exactly my point. If you said it wasn't in 13.3, but it is in 13.4, again, I'm getting these numbers wrong, then that narrows the problem space. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it could have been the type of thing that crept up over time. That would be a very unfortunate result of me doing that experiment, which was like, well, it's harder to trigger in 13.1 harder still in 13.0 because again it's not like a thing where it's on and off it's just like a a gradient of uh badness depending on how much stuff you're doing but yeah my word it's annoying i mean i don't envy them trying to track down this bug i'm just trying to help here like and like i said the main thing i fear is like i mean it's a fear but it's also the type of thing of like well if it's really hard to reproduce on faster macs eventually when to get an m3 mac or something or an m4 mac it'll take 700 windows to reproduce i'll never see it again because i never have that many oh you will you will i've never been you'll you'll hit that limit if if there is if there is limit you'll find it i don't think so i don't think there is like if i need a much bigger screen anyone knows because there is a crowding remember it's visible windows they have to be visible and you know there's there's a limit to how many can be visible you know what another thing again jokes have left the room another thing that i wonder if it would be worth you trying and i know you're going to vomit all over your desk when i bring this up but what if you tried spaces i wonder if if using spaces and putting i don't know all the chrome windows in one space which i will be the first to tell you that that would dramatically change the way you use your computer and i'm not arguing that but i wonder if that would be at least an interesting way now hideout hideout is way faster than spaces and essentially accomplishes the same purpose you know what i mean or even stage manager like anything like it's just visibility like i don't need to put them way over another space i just need to option click away from one app to another you know and hide them behind me it's hiding is not bad and and i do hide most of the time it's just that in certain scenarios i have several clusters of things going on and it's enough for it to be annoying no i hear that no i mean i think you'll be less sympathetic if and when you start encountering this because considering this has gotten worse over time it either didn't exist and then did exist or it has gotten worse because i didn't notice this at all and i would have because it's not like i've changed i didn't notice this at all i you know a year or two ago and now i notice it a lot so it may be coming for you guys eventually because if it continues to get worse uh if you ever log in a second user even with your eight windows open you might see it and not as severely but you might see it a little bit you're like huh is this app slow why is it lagging behind the cursor a little bit like in theory eight windows is you should be able to see some amount of lag if you were to like micro analyze it in slow-mo video right because it is not again it's not like not happening and then happening it's just a matter of degree how much is it happening with eight windows it's happening more than it is with seven which is more than it is with six which is more than it is with five you know it's happening to you too you just don't know it i don't know i think like casey and i use so many fewer windows also we're using you know apple silicon max and i use an apple mouse yeah the apple the apple mouse is not it's not the i don't think it's the apple mouse i think it's the polling rate of the mouse that's why i think bluetooth is harder than usb because i think usb allows lower latency and more polling especially for like the fancy mice like this microsoft one it's not that fancy but like logitech logitech mx master 3 i think is a semi well maybe it's not that high well it's it's more that like the you know the the combination of conditions that i'm using like i'm using their recent hardware i'm using their mouse i think it's much more it's much less likely that a bug that affects me in that way would ever get through apple because they would hit like this i'm using the hardware in combinations and software in in patterns that they expect i'm like i'm on the happy path i'm using the mainstream stuff you have some some kind of fringe edge case things around you have this weird microsoft mouse you're using the mac pro you have multiple users the microsoft mouse is not that's what i'm getting the microsoft mouse is not weird it's just a usb connected mouse well to apple it's weird you know like because again i you know pick a logitech plain old logitech usb connected mouse not weird uh easy to reproduce it's not just a microsoft mouse like i think i think it really has to do with the well might have to do with the polling rate i don't have a way of telling what the polling rate is but yeah but some people said they reproduced it with the built-in trackpad on their macbook pro so that's pretty happy path too you know what i mean yeah fair anyway i i do i do think you two should both reproduce this next week i'll have you log into a second account before we start recording just so you can see it for yourself just so you know you will know that your computers are not immune we are brought to you this week by trade coffee The best way to make coffee at home, and believe me, I'm a coffee nerd.

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55:48breaking news as we record tonight on wednesday night do do do do do do do do uh apple just today has released 17.ios 17.0.3 this update provides important bug fixes security updates and addresses an issue that may cause iphone i still don't like that they don't use the may cause iphone to run warmer than expected what is going on here apparently all of our iphone 15s are melting And I think, Marco, you broke this news, what, a week or two ago, when you said during your transfer, your iPhone attempted to melt into the desk. Yeah, it was thermally throttling itself and telling me that. This whole thing, the heat gate, as Gruber and Malt said on the talk show, it's gate season.

56:31All the scandals about the iPhone. I got my fine-moving case with the hole that's too small and the material that's too small and the material that's too small. apple will never say that like if this is a real problem it absolutely will never be said you mean if it's a hardware problem yeah if it's like a real shortcoming that's just inherent to the design and choices made for the iphone 15 pro apple will never in a million years say that well i don't understand i don't think that's fair at all because it's not like they've ever told us that we were holding a phone wrong what are they going to tell us now that they're that we're touching it wrong antenna gate they did confirm that this thing you said could happen if you did a thing yeah if you do that thing the thing you said does happen so they did confirm that and here's the other thing about the iphone 15 like i haven't seen the teardowns from i fix it yet but i don't think there's anything about the way it is constructed and cooled that is different than the 14 pro in a way that would be this profound there was we talked about last time like well the titanium has less mass that means there's less mass to soak up the uh the temperature although i don't actually know the heat i don't actually i don't think that's how that works but it might be a factor but i don't think that's a major factor but it's also the there's also a fact that i don't know if titanium is better or worse at conducting heat than aluminum right and what you know alloy of titanium or you know anyway there are a lot of factors involved even like how much of the heat from the chip which is kind of in like the middle back of the phone how much of that heat even makes it to the outer frame probably not a lot yeah but anyway like what i'm saying is that this this phone is not radically different construction wise so what would have to be true for it to be a hardware issue is that something in it presumably the soc would itself have to be radically different oh this soc gets way hotter uh or he's capable of getting way hotter or whatever and i so far i haven't seen any evidence of that that the soc because it is three nanometers even if it is no better than five nanometer it should get a little hotter because it's you know has more transistors but you know is the density up that much like it doesn't it seems like the overheating is so you know obvious and severe that you would need if it was a hardware related thing it would have to be incredibly significant like totally different cooling system totally different design for the phone or this soc is just way way hotter than the other one and none of those things seem to be true so i'm willing to take apple's explanation to face value which is uh this is a software problem probably and or at least like you know software is a lot of things you know software could be the thermal regulation of the chip like when does the chip throttle under what conditions how how far is it willing to push itself before it starts throttling because phone you know phone chips if you run them hard they do throttle that's not a new thing that's not that's not a thing inherent to the iphone 15 these chips have no active cooling there's a certain limit to how far they can or how long they can run at full blast and they they will throttle themselves if need be and that's again that's not new that's not a scandal that's that's not news it could just be that like they ship the f1 15 pro with bad trade-offs or you know like bad a bad thermal regulation um you know set of parameters and they've tweaked that i mean so here's if you keep reading the apple statement they they did uh spread a lot of the software blame around this is coding directly from apple um uh blah blah warmer right so apple says we have also found a bug in ios 17 that is impacting some users and will be addressed in a software update so that's them saying we've got a bug are some part of ios 17 it could be the part that you just talked about marco that the part that controls how the thing thermal throttles or whatever but that's them the apple saying something wrong in ios 17 we'll fix that and they say another issue involves some recent updates to third-party apps that are causing them to overload the system we were working with the app developers blah blah blah so they're blaming some third-party apps and they're blaming the operating system so there's enough software and i think the third-party app ones is also kind of an operating system thing because the operating system on iphones at least is supposed to keep them kind of in check and not let them you know burn up the whole cpu or whatever uh but there's enough vague software blame to go around to say hey there's nothing inherently wrong with the design of this phone it's just that when you do a lot of stuff uh using if you use if you use a lot of CPU, it gets hot, and things are using more CPU than they, quote-unquote, should be on a phone, and so that's why it's hot.

1:01:07Yeah, I mean, that's, I think this is probably, I think all of those things are true. I think these apps are using too much CPU. You know, the way iOS throttles apps' CPUs, it isn't it doesn't throttle you to, like, alright, you're currently using 100 % of a core, we're gonna let you use 80 % of a core forever. No, that isn't how it works. The way it works, at least, last time I checked, maybe they've changed, but the way the way it has usually worked is like foreground apps can do whatever they want to the cpu as long as they want the cpu might eventually thermally throttle itself down to a lower clock speed or something but foreground apps do not have any cpu restrictions the ios restrictions are mainly just about background apps not burning too much power and on that they do have a lot of software controls once you've reached a certain threshold the system just kills your app so if it'll be something like you've used over 100 % CPU for over 90 seconds.

1:01:57Then they just kill you. So it's not keeping apps from heating up the CPU at all. It's keeping background apps from burning up too much CPU in the background. But foreground apps can heat up the CPU as much as they want as long as you're still using them. And so my guess is, yes, those apps were ridiculous. They always are. Like Instagram, if you are an Instagram user, you know that is one of the heaviest battery draining apps on your phone if you ever look at the battery screen it's like instagram is like one of the number one things up there did we talk about this did i admit publicly that i thought i thought i did talk about this i still maintain that there is no need to force quit anything but i have now turned into i will force quit instagram and facebook and only those two wait wait you still maintain there's no need to force quit anything do you want to amend that statement okay in general usage of course there are times that you will need to force quit things.

1:02:51I'm saying you don't need to do the swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. I think what you were meant to say was there is no need to ritualistically force quit every single application every time you're done using the phone for a moment. Sorry. Yes, that is what I meant. And the only way that I break that rule, which I do agree that that is the case, I have gotten to the point, I think because I've been so scared by what I see in that battery screen that Marco just brought up, I will now force quit Instagram and Facebook if I ever look at them because it just creeps me out how much battery they used.

1:03:18I bet you 100 % of it is probably when I'm foregrounded, or when they're foregrounded, but still, it just creeps me out how much they destroy my battery. It used to be the case that if you got force quit, you couldn't run in the background anymore until you were launched, but they changed that many years ago, didn't they? Yeah, well, there's a few exceptions to that. Oh, I guess like a silent notification? Yeah, so notification update, background refresh, that used to be killed in the back. If you did that, now it's not. because the problem is like people would force quit everything you know out of habit and then they would complain why isn't this app getting notifications or whatever why is my stuff not updating yeah and and so they've had to add little exceptions here and there so what that means is that your your habit you know your your decision to force quit what you perceive to be a misbehaving application that app still has the ability to misbehave because you're not preventing it from doing background refresh for example and if it's doing background refresh aggressively or getting silent uh you know notification updates from facebook or whatever which i'm sure it totally is it's still back there being badly behaved yeah and and if and if the app is in the foreground it can do almost whatever it wants like although when it when it's doing that like the operating system you know won't kill it but uh it will the cpu will throttle due to heat yes so when you're playing a game your frame rates will drop not because the operating system is saying you can't have this many frames but because literally the these clock speed of the cpu is being turned down and so everything is going to get slower and you know it's thermal throttling right yeah and so that's why i i'm i'm guessing the most likely explanation for the iphone hot story here most likely explanation is those parameters for when it would throttle and under what conditions were not set right or were not ideal for real world use that that's not my that's not my guess my guess is this and as my guess is based on my wife's story of her 15 pro her 15 pro was she said i wish i could read her quote but i don't have it handy here um i think what you're saying it was getting it was like felt like it was too hot to touch uh like she like it was uncomfortable to have in her hand and she's got the fine woven case on it so it's not like she's holding the bar of her phone she has a sweater on it yeah well you know exactly here's what it says i can't talk on the phone without it almost burning my hand from the heat what was she doing with her phone talking on the phone like voice call like cell network voice call not facetime not facetime audio but like telephone call so the screen's not even on she's just talking on the telephone with her iphone which is madness i know but some people do it and it was getting so hot some people also use wired mice it was almost burning her hand what that makes me think is that it is not a temperature curve thing or whatever here's what i think it is these operating systems you know they're based on darwin which is underlying all the apple stuff it's unix it's got a whole bunch of different processes running some subsystem of the operating system that has split off into a demon process or whatever like which is most of the parts of the operating system had some kind of bug in it where it would get caught in an infinite loop and it's some essential part of the system that it doesn't get killed and if it does get killed it immediately relaunches and it just would crash and relaunch and get caught in an infinite loop and maybe be killed by a watchdog process and relaunching it caught in an infinite loop because some inner part of the operating system flipping out and getting caught in an infinite loop that's not going to get killed by the operating system because it's part of the operating system and talking on the phone what could possibly be burning up your your thing in your hand when you're talking on the phone it's got to be it's got to be some subsystem that like comes into being when you're talking on the phone or like when like this reads to me like something crashing and looping because i can't think of anything else that would it would explain and that would be apple saying oh some some thing is crashing all the time so let's fix whatever the third party apps thing i i have harder time wondering what that could be because you know like casey said instagram has always been like this like this is not new right apple has been ios versus facebook apps or ios versus badly behaved apps that war has been going on for ages it's not like oh we never thought we'd have to handle this i don't think anything changed recently that would you know anyway this is we should skip to the end here which is apple does have a supposed fix for this that came out hours before we started recording which is ios 17.0.3 uh there the text from apple on this is this update provides important bug fixes security updates and addresses an issue that may cause iphone to run warmer than expected does it work i don't have it installed yet either you install it uh i have the developer beta that has allegedly the same fix in it yeah i don't have an iphone 15 pro but my wife is definitely updating her phone and so i'll let you know how it goes for her but yeah talking on the phone making it so hot that it was burning her hand that's not good i mean and if this continues if 1710.3 doesn't fix it i feel like that's when i start thinking of like manufacturing defect like you know thermal is there even any thermal paste i don't even want to know like anyway uh not a great start but uh we'll see yeah yeah i feel like this is the beginnings of the studio display camera problems when apple was like no no no no no no it's software we're fine it's software and to be clear like i i have no reason to believe that it isn't software i'm not trying to imply that apple's full of it but as we quickly learned with the studio display they were full of it at that point like it seems like the camera and the studio display is legitimately not great but i i suspect that this legit is is for real a software issue although i will say that uh some friends of ours asked in in a group chat with aaron and me asked hey how do you like your new phones ours arrive in a couple weeks i said you know by and large it's fine the case story is real bad this year but the phones are good and aaron said well you know the phone is fine but the battery life is no better than my 14 and i plugged it in to top it off just now and it's basically on fire now i'm pretty sure she was plugged into a macbook pro charger and so presumably it was fast charging but nonetheless uh it certainly seemed that even charging her phone was making it quite toasty so i'm curious because she hasn't applied the the update yet i'm curious if that gets any better once she's updated yeah we need some youtuber with access to like uh you know like one of those heat measuring things like we need quantitative measurements because as i said last week uh when the thing you're when the thing that has something hot inside it is hot to the touch that means the heat is going from the inside to the outside and radiating out so like if you if you hold it and don't feel any heat but it's still producing the same amount that he is trapped inside so things that quote unquote feel hotter and may actually be running cooler because the thing that you want to be cool is in the middle of the phone and you want the heat to go out and then it hits your hand and that's not great you don't want it like that's one of the reasons that people have reported that they think apple doesn't put better quote-unquote better cooling systems in their laptops is because it can't get too hot on your lap so they can't immediately dump all the heat out the back of the laptop because it will burn your legs so they have to let it dissipate out slowly so it never gets too hot so i don't know the answer to the question of is it producing more heat in the inside the phone or is it merely better it's shedding the heat that it does produce and it's shedding it like too quickly essentially like that its cooling system is quote unquote too good because as soon as the soc heats up it's so thermally conducted that it blasts that heat from the soc out of the phone and it hits you and it is uncomfortable and to be clear that's not you don't want that that's not good but i don't actually know if the quantity of heat is larger or if it's just that the transfer is faster and i think you'd need fancy scientific equipment to figure that out we are brought to you this week by squarespace the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online whether you're just starting out with your business or you're managing a growing brand squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website engage with your audience and sell anything from products to content to time all in one place and all on your terms squarespace is the best place to build a website especially for businesses they now have this new fluid engine this next gen website design system from squarespace so it's never been easier for anyone to unlock unbreakable creativity you don't have to be a programmer.