557: The Phone-Box Lottery

26:06Or maybe you would in the USB-C days. But anyway, it's like a batch process where like I'm going to run Time Machine backup now. And it's going to backup stuff over some fast connection, either a local network or a wire to something that is in my house right now. And there's a place for all of these in your own personal backup vortex. You should have cloud backups. You should have local backups. You should have backups that happen transparently in the background that you don't have to think about. You should have backups that run periodically and are more heavyweight. And I think in this discussion we've learned is that both the Mac and the iPhone and the iPad have holes in what Apple provides for backups.

26:44if you have both of them if you buy everything from apple you can use the mac to help backup stuff obviously because once you get your icloud photo library onto your mac then you can use all the mac backup solutions um and do a time machine backup of your local photo library or whatever um and then cloud backups are probably available pretty well in both of them but of course cloud backup in the mac is not built in like it is in the phone but yeah the original question was what if i don't have mac what if i just have the phone and if you just have one of these platforms so not the other that's when you really start to see the hole so i'm glad there are parties that are fighting the good fight and trying to find a solution to this but i feel like i mean i guess photo sync is the one that maybe does usb drives maybe with the advent of usbc there'll be more of this but if like most of the the the path of resistance on the phone and the ipad is cloud backups and even that there is some resistance because you have to essentially uh make sure that you're running somehow and force download the full quality one because you probably don't have the originals being downloaded onto your phone all the time and then force upload them and then get rid of the cloud one.

27:40And it's just, I feel for the people writing these apps, but they're out there if you want to give them a try. All right. And then continuing in the photos section of the world, an anonymous person wrote in with regard to photos remembering the crop aspect ratios that drives John nuts in macOS 14.1, the beta. This anonymous person writes, photos will only remember whether you selected free form or original last. All of their aspect ratios are ignored since photos never wants to change the crop aspect ratio when you enter the cropped tool on unadjusted photos. Also, Photos does store the specific aspect ratio applied to each photo.

28:13For every adjusted photo, Photos stores a crop rectangle and a cropped aspect ratio. When selecting Freeform, it stores 00 as an aspect ratio. Additionally, Photos now stores a user default, indicating whether the user prefers a locked aspect ratio, original, or not. That value is only changed when the user either clicks on original or Freeform, and nothing else. Yeah, this is clarifying. before when I heard about the this feature on the last episode I thought oh that means it's just every time I crop something to something else like now the next photo I view is going to be viewed like cropped to square because the last photo I did was square but I'm happy to hear that it doesn't do that it just looks at freeform and original ignores all the other ones which is great it's also nice to hear that they're already storing uh the selected aspect ratio for photos with the clever zero zero programmer hack as the aspect ratio for freeform uh what uh it's still a probably a more thorough implementation of this would be to have an actual preference in preferences that says hey when you come upon a photo that you've never selected an aspect ratio for what do you want me to pick uh they don't have that in fact there are no editing specific preferences in photos so i can understand why them maybe not wanting to go through all the trouble of saying we're going to have a new breed of preference in photos have you ever looked at by the way the mac photos uh i keep saying preferences the settings in the mac photos app there's not a lot there for for an application that's so big and so important very sparse preferences it is not one of those applications like mine that has a million preferences for every possible setting it is not a power user type uh preference slash setting screen um but yeah if you don't want to go that far if you don't want to have a setting for that uh doing it this way which is essentially like having that setting but having it be invisible and having that setting get set every time you hit freeform or original i think this will work out just fine for me and i probably won't have have any more complaints but we'll see once it actually ships i'm not i'm not going to run the beta all right john tell me about your issues with chrome other than the fact that it's chrome this was last week i was talking about uh getting docker image up and running to do dev work on the atp cms and that was all swell except chrome kept throwing this network error error network changed error uh and i couldn't figure out what it was until i realized it was only there when i was running docker and so i did look more into this because it was basically making it so that i couldn't do atp cms development work in chrome and by the way i like to do the development chrome because i like the chrome dev tools a little bit better or maybe i'm just used to them more but anyway that's was my go-to is to use the chrome dev tools to have them open while i'm doing stuff but it became untenable because it was like 50 of the http requests sent from the browser would die with failure because of error network changed so i started googling uh and googling was one of those depressing uh you know search sequences where you're like oh i'm not the only one who has this problem and it's super old and i was finding the bug reports bug reports against chromium or whatever like the whatever the open source project is that underlies the engine where this error is taking place you could find reports starting in 2019 for error network change when dockware is running cool and that so the first one was open in june 17th and it was closed as won't fixed in july of 2019 and then november 15th one was filed and that was closed as won't fix on december 1st 2021 speaking of 2021 more different these are all new reports march 29th of 2021 that one was closed as won't fix on september 28th september 29th another one was filed that one is still open but this is a depressing series i read through all these threads It's like, why are they being closed?

31:41Won't fix. I still don't have a good answer to that. Like the browser, the people who do the browser engine are saying, well, the network did change. And so this is legitimate error. And the people who are filing the bug saying, I'm just trying to use your web browser. And I happen to be running Docker and it becomes useless. Like you can't use the web browser to browse the web. Like if you, if you, maybe you wouldn't notice this if you didn't know the dev tools, but if you open up the network pane on the dev tools and just do literally anything in Chrome, it just fills with red. Error network change.

32:10like those those requests fail right i mean it made me very impressed with how like robust gmail is because with like 50 of the requests failing gmail is just like battling its way through you get that little yellow banner at the top and it says you can click to rethrive it didn't break the app it just made it you know very slow and terrible but many other applications just totally break because if they can't run http requests they're like oh the network's gone i don't know what's going on um here's the thing about this bug other web browsers work fine right if you're on safari when docker is running you'd never get these errors is a chrome specific thing and the theory i don't know about the internals here but the theory that is put forward in a lot of these bug reports is chrome notices that something relating to the network for this computer has changed and the argument of the people in the bug reports is yeah but if the thing that changed is totally irrelevant to chrome like if it's some networking thing that docker is using that has no relation to any of the connections that chrome has why does it care why doesn't it just keep using its connections they're fine all its connections are fine docker's not messing with chrome's connections you can make http requests on any port that you are everything's fine but chrome says something about the networking change nope kill everything and and for years they've since 2019 they've just been closing these bugs this won't fix no this is working as design network change we kill everything and i feel i again i don't know the details but i feel like the strongest argument is this doesn't happen with other web browsers so i feel like it shouldn't happen with chrome um so that was disappointing i had to switch my web dev to safari and their dev tools have gotten better over the years so um i'm just not quite used to them so anyway i switched to safari and then gavin harris went in to say that he swapped away from docker desktop on the mac to use orb stack o-r-b-s-t-a-c-k.dev he says it works great for me and it has the added benefit of be able to run a linux vm and their motto on their website is orb stack is the fast light easy way to run docker containers and linux uh it i mean it does run linux vms if that's something you want it's not what i want but it basically it kind of a drop-in replacement for a docker desktop on the mac like you can just run docker containers just as is in them it is another thing that runs docker and i had high hopes that this would solve my problems it's a native mac app instead of like electron app like docker is and it's you know there's nothing to install it's just a little app thing but it does first of all it asks you if you want to import all your images and containers and stuff from docker which i did and that worked but i'm like hmm now you're now you're kind of like i had to look at what this thing was installing it like installs a new like socket for the docker networking thing installs it wants to install a new privilege helper and anyway i tried it it didn't solve the problem chrome still flips out over there network changed things when you're running orb stack so i uninstalled it i think it's also you can get to pay for a subscription at some point anyway if you're looking for some fun way to run linux vms and docker orb stack is very cool and it's probably preferable to using the default docker desktop but i just went back to docker desktop just because you know it didn't solve my problem and i'm used to docker desktop so uh i don't know um i mean i don't this is not a bug that i care about that much because you know whatever i'll just use safari but the bad thing is when i'm running docker not only can i not do development work in chrome i can't do anything in chrome like chrome is basically just dead right and the only way to undeadify it is to quit docker like to quit the docker engine so please if there are any chrome or chromium devs looking at this i have high hopes that that one issue opened in september 29th of 2021 is still marked as available and open please someone find that and don't close it as won't fix like all the other ones but this just seems like again if every other web browser works in chrome doesn't i think this is a Chrome problem.

35:52For what it's worth, John, if you recall, I was having some issues where my Docker containers on my Mac Mini were failing after a long time, especially after heavy network use, and that's when somebody, a listener, had suggested Colima, which is, it's like a, not a portmanteau, but it's something about containers for Linux on the Mac, C-O-L-I-M-A, or something like that. This is all command line stuff. There's no fancy GUI thing like orb stack has but it might be worth trying i suspect that you will run into the exact same problem as you were with orb stack and with regular docker desktop but you could give that a shot we'll put a link in the show notes just in case yeah and by the way i did try all we'll put links in the show notes to these issues i did try all the suggestions there was all sorts of suggestions how you can change the configuration of the uh the docker engine uh some people were saying oh it's eero eero is advertising this ipv6 thing and doing it over and over again and screwing everything up and some people said you should disable ipv6 entirely i tried all these things first of all i looked at my euro config and realized i had always had ipv6 off in my euro config so i tried with it on and tried with it off but i'd always had that off i also have the thread radio thing off on my euros i don't know when i did that but i agree with past me but anyway i did try switching them i did try switching them and it didn't make a difference then i turned ipv6 off on all my network interfaces on my mac didn't make a difference i tried the like there's a bunch of config things in these things about setting a fixed citer addresses for ipv6 or turning ipv6 off in the docker engine try all those things none of them worked so i mean i again i don't know what docker is doing to change the network but nothing i have tried has stopped it so yeah and i don't i don't have much faith that colima would help considering orb stack didn't but agreed but you know if you wanted to try yet another thing you could yeah no i'll just i'll just use safari all right uh we had a bunch of feedback with regard to airpods pro as hearing protection including um i've only started uh upgrade this week but jason apparently had a similar idea and went to a concert recently and and had a lot of the same experiences that marco did uh so i'll put a link to upgrade in the show notes uh but But anyways, Wes wrote in, I was also curious and tried my AirPods Pro at a monster truck rally at the beginning of the year.

38:08Noise cancelling could not handle it. It just filled my ears with static. I switched quickly over to earplugs. I thought it was kind of funny. Then somebody sent us a link to noisyworld.org, which has all sorts of reviews about noise cancelling things and dinguses and whatnot. And there's a whole post about AirPods Pro for hearing protection there. And then finally, Samuel Levine writes, I'm a doctor. I am a neurotologist who has some expertise in concerts and hearing loss. I studied this problem of loud concerts. Without going into the whole science thing, we found that the start and the end of the concert is the loudest and most damaging to hearing.

38:47The type of music didn't really matter. We tried a couple of different concerts. The position in the hall made no difference. Active noise cancellation really does what it says. It really reduces the noise before it hits the eardrum. We tested a couple of different earplugs which helped out, but did not eliminate really loud sounds. Your lack of ringing is a sign of how well it worked. Ringing is a sign of hearing loss. Immediately after the concert, you're seeing temporary threshold changes. Attending more concerts will convert it to permanent. A quick rule of thumb is that your hearing at 8 kHz is roughly your age.

39:14If you get old enough, you lose appreciation of music, which sounds friggin' terrible, but that's the reality. This was very good to hear because I was very careful last time to say, like look i used airpods pro as earplugs at a concert and it seemed to work and it seemed to not hurt my ears and everything else um but i said like you know i'm not a doctor i don't know for sure and so it was good to hear from actual doctors and actual people who know what they're talking about that basically confirms that yes active noise cancellation when it cancels out that noise from reaching your ear that does physically prevent it from harming the ear Now, it doesn't attenuate all frequencies evenly.

39:54If you're operating a jackhammer or working next to a giant machine all day in some kind of industrial or professional setting where you are constantly needing real hearing protection all the time, or maybe if you go to a concert every weekend or you run concerts for a living or you are a musician for a living and you're always on stage. In situations like that where you are always in very loud environments, you should get something that's purpose-built for that. You should not be using your AirPods Pro for your only hearing protection in that kind of situation. But so far, the feedback seems to indicate that if you are an occasional concert goer like me, and you want easy hearing protection that also lets you hear the music very, very well, using the AirPods Pro seemed to work really well.

40:38And there seems to be no major downsides, except, as mentioned last time, it is a little bit weird in how it processes the sound sometimes. and it's a little bit non-ideal, but it's still way better than all the concert earplugs that I tried. So pretty cool to hear that the protection it offers, while it is not massive protection, it is real protection. Yeah, we also got a really long email from someone who worked in a symphony orchestra, who plays in a symphony orchestra. And apparently wearing earplugs in a symphony orchestra is a thing for all the musicians because it is very loud there at various points.

41:11And he was also using AirPods, but with foam tips and his big suggestion, one of his big suggestions in a very long email, and unfortunately we couldn't find a way to summarize here, was that the fit of the thing that goes into your ear is really important to the noise blocking. And so if you want to use AirPods Pro in a more serious capacity, like you know you're going to, for your job, you're going to be in a symphony orchestra and it's super loud, don't use the default things. You can both get the better foam ones and also those ones where they make a mold of your ear canal so they're custom fit just for you.

41:45That's the road you should be traveling down if you are chronically going to be in a very loud environment. We are brought to you this episode by Squarespace, the all-in-one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything, your products, your content, even your time, all in one place and all on your terms. Squarespace makes it super easy to make all kinds of websites, and they have amazing business and storefront capabilities.

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43:51All right, so let me remind you, like I said earlier, that we are recording this on the evening of Monday, October 16. And depending on what rumors you are listening to, everything in the world is going to change in the next couple of days. Or nothing at all. Who knows? Or nothing at all. Yeah. Who really knows? But one of us, I think it was John, had a pretty good idea. I think that we could sit here and try to predict what will happen. But what if we talked about instead, what do we think should happen? And I think, John, it was you who wrote, what hardware needs to be updated? So, John, since this is your topic, how do you want to quarterback this?

44:30yeah so the rumor is partly because the rumor mill is such a mess for for october very often there's an october event uh and you get stuff that's not the phone or the watch because those happen in september uh very often it's mac stuff and we're interested in that or sometimes it's ipad stuff but this year just the rumors are just so either they're inconsistent where they're flopping back and forth or they're sad where they're saying hey all the stuff that you were looking forward to yeah none of that stuff is happening this year so it's all pushed off into 2024. And, you know, if we look back at the timelines for these things, I think we all kind of expected that the plain old M3 would be in something by now.

45:08So it seems like, I mean, again, you can't say, oh, the schedule slipped. We don't know the schedule. We just hear rumors. The rumored schedule slipped. There was rumors that the M3 would be out by now in something, and it's not. And so, you know, we all want to see the M3, and we figured the plain old unadorned non-pro, non-max, non-ultra one would be the first one to come out. And there's lots of machines that it could get it uh but you know the rumors all the rumors have been like yeah no just that's going to be like spring next year or whatever so anyway whether or not there is an october event whether or not new ipads and a new apple pencil are announced tomorrow as we record this we don't know but i thought it was worth thinking about is there apple hardware that's like long in the tooth that really needs to be updated whether or not it gets the m3 or not or any hardware phones obviously phones don't need to be updated ipads or whatever like what what should be up Why have an October event at all?

45:59Is there anything that Apple should update before the holiday season so that they have, let's say, less embarrassing products on the shelves to sell to people for the holidays? You know, there are certain things in the Mac that we can point to, like the iMac is weirdly old right now. But I think one of the ways to look at this is what still has an M1? And of course, the iMac is one of those things. But one of the more glaring things to me is basically the entire iPad lineup is a little bit stale heading into the holiday season. And that's weird because iPads are very often given as holiday gifts or at least asked for as holiday gifts.

46:39And so it's a little bit unusual and non-ideal to be heading into the holiday season with an iPad lineup that is somewhat aging and not that interesting. On the high end, the iPad Pro has been updated somewhat recently. I believe it was earlier this year when it got the M2. It got the Mac Pro New label from the beginning of the show. New iPad Pro. Yeah, no, I see. It's very few changes since 2018 on the iPad Pros. They've upgraded the guts, made a couple of little tweaks here and there, but for the most part, it hasn't had many changes since 2018. So the iPad Pro is a little bit boring in its design and basic physical characteristics because those haven't changed in a while.

47:27But the guts are decent. The iPad Air, I feel like, is kind of a weird, lost product. So the iPad Air still has the M1, which at the time they gave it the M1, it was actually a pretty big upgrade. Like the iPad Air stepping up to get the M1 was like, wow, that's kind of overpowered for that product. And it remains very powerful. I mean, the M1 and M2 really aren't that different from each other. But it is weird that it's only the M1 still and it's going to slowly get outdated. I wouldn't feel great buying a brand new M1-powered iPad today in late 2023 when I know that the M3s are on the horizon.

48:06I don't know. I think I would. Like for the iPads, I know the M1 is older, but I feel like that's especially for the non-pro iPads. an m1 and an ipad it has the advantage of being less power hungry than the m2 and i think it has plenty of power for an ipad like i feel like the main the main problem with the ipad line the things that need to be updated is it's because they updated the lower end ipad to have like remove the where the facetime or not the facetime camera remove where the uh did they just move the the pencil attachment point on that one i forget what they did to the new one well the base model ipad um that it was updated to basically have the modern shape like before this latest update to the base model ipad it had it still had the home button so the new ipad has the new screen shape it supports the magnetic pencil i think right no it's got the camera on the on the landscape side right uh yeah oh no it does not support the magnetic pencil but yeah like they gave they gave a revision in where the guts are where the external features are on the ipad to basically make it seem like more of a landscape device and it only happened to the low end one and not to the pro and the pro got like oh new guts but everything is moved around so it's the ipad line is in this uncomfortable situation where there's clearly new thinking about how to arrange stuff externally and internally on an ipad but that new thinking has not spread to the entire line and so i don't think it's the m1 that is holding back the ipad line and making it seems like it needs to be updated it's the new thinking about how ipads work but you know the pros like i don't think they desperately need to be updated because the m2 is fine and they just got updated semi recently so i wouldn't put them on a list of hey this is apple really needs to update this because it's embarrassing they're selling an m2 ipad pro we're just anticipating it we all want it especially since oled is rumored for it or whatever so that's a next year type product and for any ipad that still has an m1 i think that's fine it's the ones that have like it doesn't want to have like an a14 i think the mini has the a14 or something it's the ones that have an a something chip that is a low number they could go up by one or two those are the rumors by the way that like maybe by the time you're hearing this they've already announced new a15 or a16 ipads or whatever and that is a fine update for the holiday season but i don't expect them to come with a rejiggering of the internals and to allow for the apple pencil in a different way and all that you know well they if they if they find a way to deal with the magnetically attached apple pencil and the camera in the new position if that comes to a non-iPad Pro first and the iPad Pro is the last model to get that's going to be kind of weird but yeah the iPad is in an uncomfortable place but I don't think that part of the the product line is desperate for an update at this point no I think you're right that it's more about the the inconsistencies within the iPad lineup that you know because they've been updated because iPads are updated fairly infrequently each individual model I'm saying is updated somewhat infrequently.

50:59And they've had these different ideas of, first of all, of course, different pencil shapes and charging methods and then USB-C or not, and whether it's Touch ID, whether there's a home button or the Touch ID side button, whether there's Face ID. And now, as you mentioned, whether the front camera is on the long side or the short side, they've been evolving a lot of this stuff over time. But because the iPad upgrade cycle is not super, super fast, a lot of this stuff is still transitional across the line. And so there's all these ways that if you want to know, like, well, how does the iPad work or what accessory is compatible with the iPad?

51:34The answer is really complicated, and it should be much simpler than it is. So what I'm looking forward to is it seems like the hardware that has been updated most recently has generally, like, had its head in the right place. So I'd like to see that, you know, go across the line more. But, again, that might take a little while. And I think it forms a very confusing lineup for people. When you look at, first of all, it's hard to compare the iPads performance-wise because the base iPad uses the A14. The iPad mini, which is smaller but more expensive, uses the A15. Then the iPad Air uses the M1 and the iPad Pro uses the M2.

52:12They cross entire chip families with different naming conventions. They cross that whole thing within what is ostensibly one product lineup, the iPad lineup. and then the capabilities are so weirdly different between them all and there's all these little asterisks on which one you buy that will mean X, Y, and Z and it seems fairly confusing even as a person who follows this stuff as a big part of my living if I wasn't looking at the Apple Compare page and you asked me what chip does the iPad Mini have I would have no idea and I owned one and I would have no idea it's a very strange lineup and there's all these weird little inconsistencies.

52:55And so I hope over the next cycle of updates, whenever that happens, I hope they start ironing them out. But all that is to say, heading into the holiday season, unless the iPad lineup changes, which is rumored to either change significantly or not at all in like 12 hours. So we'll see. But hopefully heading into the holiday season, I hope there is some kind of fresh new change to the iPad lineup. So far, the rumor is that it's going to at least have a new pencil, maybe. If that pans out, that sounds good, maybe. but that doesn't sound like a big thing that sounds like a small thing so we'll see well you know not knowing what chip your ipad's having it is more towards my argument that it doesn't actually matter if as long as the chip is fast enough like that the ipads are not particularly demanding even for things like games like i think most ipad games are tuned to be able to run on the inexpensive ipads because so many more of them sell i don't think that's the where these things need to be pulled up there there's still like there's still that one that's still in the old design with the home button but i think part of the rumors for the new pencil are related to the same thing with the thing with the home button is lighting versus usbc right obviously everything in apple's line we all presume is going to shed lightning and go to usbc so if there is a new apple pencil um you know that the the new ipad with the new arrangement of stuff still has the lightning apple pencil right because it doesn't have the magnetically attachment is there a usb c equivalent of that kind of pencil or do they never ship one like that do they finally get rid of the last ipad with the home button or does it just keep going with the home button and lightning for longer until it gets replaced by a new design model it is ipad-ish season and we all want the updated ipad pro with the oled screen because that's the fanciest most expensive one but yeah the whole rest of the line is still kind of you know so i i don't think i think ipads can get away with a lot of older stuff um in ways the other products can't but uh you we would like to see some revision here but for an october event i mean the reason we're talking about it all is because every other thing that we're going to get to in a little bit all the rumors are saying yeah you're not getting any of that so we're just like well i guess they could fix some ipad stuff but anyway let's move on to the the mac line uh you mentioned the m1 iMac earlier that's super old I don't think the M1 is the problem on that computer line.

55:12I think it's the RAM compliments, right? Because again, I think the M1, I talked about this on one of our recent member specials. I think the M1 is still a phenomenal chip for Macs. It just needs to be adequately supported by everything else. And the M1 iMac has a really nice screen, beautiful industrial design. It's a fun computer. I think everything about it's great, except for SSD size and RAM, right? And those are things that Apple doesn't like to, you know move up uh as time marches on to our satisfaction we're not demanding the highest end of everything it's a very inexpensive computer but it does need to keep up with the times and so as the m1 iMac ages the things that age about it the worst are the costs of the ssd options and the costs of the ram sizes and how much ram it comes with by default that stuff ages the m1 i think is still fine is someone going to get an m1 iMac and feel like i need more performance no they're just going to use it to to that you can do everything on an m1 like i was gonna say you use to browse the web and read email no you can use photoshop in the m1 it's fine like it's the m1 is not the problem the m1 is phenomenal it's still i think my favorite m chip just because the m2 is better but also hotter and i feel like lots of for lots of computers that's the wrong trade-off and for this imac not that i wouldn't love to see an m3 version we all would but the m1 is not the problem with that computer so i think of all the computers that apple has the m1 imac is the one that most needs to be updated, but not in the way that Apple is probably going to update it.

56:38If they put an M2 in the new iMac, but keep the pricing for the SSD and RAM and keep the RAM limits all exactly the same, they haven't updated that computer. No one's saying, no one's saying, I need the M2 in this thing. Just give, you know, they want more SSD space for less money and they want more RAM for less money. And those are things that add to the longevity of a machine. It's not like I got to wait an extra 25 seconds for some batch job to finish because i have an m1 instead of an m2 yeah that's fair and i think ultimately you know the the m1 imac it's it was a it's a huge success design wise but market wise i think this is this still remains a relatively low profile product like i don't think this is making headlines anymore past its its cool launch with all the cool colors and everything like i think and this has been true for a while apple sells a decent number of low-end iMacs but to fairly undemanding customers typically like they're usually buying it for the form factor and the look and not necessarily having cutting-edge hardware or high-end specs all right that's why i think it's okay for this line to be one of those ones that skips it's going to go m1 then m3 then m5 like that's perfectly adequate you know like that's you don't need to be that one doesn't need to be updated every single year and people like but just when you do update it i mean again i don't like obviously they're going to make an m3 version of that eventually right and that will be great and they should i hope yeah eventually not not not october probably um but when they go to update them on whatever schedule they think you know what kind of update schedule is justifiable given the low sales volume of the zymac is it every two years is every three years whatever it is when they do that update don't just keep the ram and ssd space the same because that really that's the thing that hurts people who want to buy inexpensive computers the most they shouldn't be so terribly punished for buying the low-end model to be constantly running out of space to constantly pressing up like isn't the default like eight gigs of ram or something on that and i know everyone have all has all these fantasy notions about how the uh the uh you know the arm cpus need less ram or whatever it's just that's not really a thing they're just very fast and good and have fast ss right but just you got you got to keep up you got to keep up with the pace of change in the industry every few years like we're not saying every year but like two three four years pass reconsider reconsider how much it costs to get you know a 512 gig ssd or a one terabyte can you imagine a consumer product with a one terabyte ssd like a 500 playstation 5 come on people um apple really needs to get on the ball This is one of the things that hurts their line the most.

59:19So should they update the M1 iMac? Yes, they should. And if they kept the M1 but just doubled the RAM and SSD for the same price, I would say that's a perfectly good update for the holiday season. See, I don't think I agree with you. All right, I'm trying to say like seven sentences all at the same time. So I agree with you that in actuality, the M1 is more than sufficient. I 100 % agree with you. But if I'm a consumer and I was going to say if I'm a normal person, but even as me, even as Casey, I think it would be hard for me to willingly buy a machine that has a one and a half to two year old CPU.

1:00:01Like, you know that that means something new is imminent. And I'm not I'm just not going to want to do that, especially if I'm, you know, spending the kind of money that a computer costs. the older these main processors are, the less likely I am to want to buy one. And I think that's true for regular people too. If they spend even a modicum of time researching, I think that they would say the same thing. I don't know. I mean, they buy these iPads with these ancient phone chips in them. They don't care. I feel like the M1 iMac is at that point. They like the colors. They don't really care. I agree that, you know, obviously we all on this program think, yeah, it should have an M3.

1:00:40It's time. like i think every every other year is at a reasonable cycle for that machine or something but i don't know like that's a good question but certainly people don't shop for ipads that way you see people buying ipads if you even try to tell them what's inside it they do not care right that's just how much does it cost how big is the screen can i get a case on it that will my kid won't break like it's only when you get into the tech nerd stuff and i that people start even asking what the processor is now max are different than ipads and i agree with that and maybe people can look at an m and see a number and understand that higher is better uh but i think the big convincer would be if you're an apple store sit down in front of the computer and use it like there's nothing you can do with that in an apple store that's going to make someone who wants to buy that computer make it seem like it seems slow and again it should upgrade to an m3 or i mean hell if you want to go m1 to m4 skip four i don't care what your cadence is pick a cadence that is justified by the things that you sell but when you do that update do it for real and if we want to be really greedy we'd say hey while you're selling that m1 model for whatever number of years until you decide to do the revision imagine during that span that you actually upgraded the base ram and storage prices imagine that that's so unheard of for apple but i think the the place where they should do that is the low end that's what we complain about all the time because we you know they're charging so much money for this eight terabyte ssd you want to buy or whatever but the low end is where it hurts the most we see it for everybody used to get phones with too little storage right or someone fills up their computer and they have no idea what to do and it's like in the answer for these things like well buy a new computer or learn how to boot from an external drive or like it's just it's so complicated so i really feel like this is the weakest part of the mac line when i look at the other parts of the mac line things are looking great the laptops do any of us have any complaints about the laptops going into the holiday season I don't.

1:02:28No. The laptop line is great. I mean, you know, we're all like, you know, hoping for cool M3 updates soon, but we don't like, we're not really like overdue for them yet. Like, it's still fine. Yeah. Like if someone you knew got one of the existing ones, would you be like, oh no, you made a mistake. Don't buy that. The new ones are coming out. No way. We would say they're great. You got a great computer. Yep. I agree. One area that I think is kind of specialized, but really, really needs to be updated. the airpods max that's true i forgot that those exist they're gonna be updated right alongside the big home pod Yeah, no, look, I think the AirPods Max, first of all, even though there's a lot of problems with that product, I think their owners seem to like them a lot.

1:03:11Certainly Tiff likes hers, and I know a lot of people who like theirs. And also, I would guess they have probably sold way more AirPods Maxes than they ever sold first-gen HomePods. But the AirPods Max, if you look at how they compare to the recent AirPods Pro, the AirPods Max have the H1 chip, like the original AirPods. The AirPods Pro now have the H2, and that gives them a few different advantages, like some of the more advanced processing modes and things like that that the AirPods Max don't have. And the AirPods Max also have, I would say, a number of significant design flaws. We all make fun of how terrible that weird case is for them.

1:03:54The whole, like, you know, the case and charging situation is really bad. They're also still lightning ports to charge and to do anything else with. So I would love to see an AirPods Max update that starts to address not only the need to move to USB-C and hopefully an update to the H2 chip, but maybe some of the other design issues that they had. So for instance, they're way too heavy, and they use way too much metal that's itself contributing to them being way too heavy, and the case is terrible. They don't fold. They're terrible for travel. Well, like there's just so many reasons why that product, it had a lot of own goals and they were unnecessary.

1:04:33So I would love to see a version two of the AirPods Max that updates it to the modern tech and hopefully tackle some of its design problems. Yeah, I mentioned the big HomePod because that also was like a first product of its kind, had a lot of problems and Apple did not seem interested in updating it for a very long time. and i hope that doesn't happen to the max because you know it's it's like hey good first try i can't wait to see your second try and it's like all right maybe we'll just sell this thing for a few more years and just continue it and then come out with a new one i don't know what's what's the plan um it seems like they should have already had a second revision by now but i would put that on the list of uh things that have a lightning port that shouldn't anymore right it's a big long line of those it's not a reason to update them and it's not saying oh you shouldn't buy one now we're in a transition period i get it but but yeah the airpods max is a good choice because how long has it been it's it's more than a year i think two years ago it was that was remember that was also released shortly before the holiday season and it was very difficult to get them because they sold out very quickly that because it's a great holiday gift if if it's a good product yeah and uh but that that is a product where if somebody bought airpods max today i might be like oh no you should have waited because they are they're getting outdated well i mean that's kind of like buying an apple monitor now it's like well yeah it is outdated but we really have no idea when they're ever going to make another one so that's true why not roll the dice i mean look we haven't mentioned the studio display but like i mean we have something in the notes about a competitor that we probably won't get to today but the studio display like whenever you buy an apple monitor it's like this is not cost competitive uh but it but in the case of retina resolution large monitors a it may be your only reasonable game in town and b don't worry about them replacing it because yeah they will eventually but chances are good it's not going to be this year or the next year so just buy it right and someone's going to be unlucky someone's going to lose the lottery they're gonna be like they said just buy it so i bought it and then new one came out next month yeah it's going to happen but like look at the cadence between apple revising its monitors over many many many years the gaps are long right they maybe they shouldn't be but again like there's some cost to develop these products uh and apple tends not to do the thing where they like revise the panels within them they don't like seem to like to do the thing that so many other technology companies do uh even in more you know cut through at lower margin businesses or maybe it's because they're cut through low margin businesses revising it like oh if there's a new better panel available for our televisions of course next year we're going to put in the new better panel why wouldn't we and apple be like no we're gonna if apple sold the tv they'd be like yeah we're gonna sell this tv for four more years and then we'll put in a much better panel but during those four years we won't drop the price and it'll be a four-year-old panel and every other TV will be better than us.

1:07:13Maybe that's why Apple didn't make a TV, but it boggles my mind that they'll just sell the same monitor for the same price for so long and the monitor world moves on. By the early time follow-up, the AirPods Max are three years old, not two. Oh my. So you're not getting an XDR update for the holiday season then? I mean, who knows when that's going to happen. It feels like the higher end of the things are, the longer it is between updates, which is not really the way it should work. I would even say like the XDR, I would not assume that it ever gets an update. It might, I hope it does, but it wouldn't surprise me if it never did.

1:07:55They just stopped selling a monitor or they sell like a bigger one or something? I don't, I mean, I don't know how successful a product has been. Like I love mine. I wouldn't give it up for the world, but I don't know how many other people are buying this thing. I think its margins are typical Apple margins. The volumes are low, but the margins are... Oh, they're very healthy. The margins are very healthy. I know. And so it's low volume, but the margins, I feel like, justify. I mean, this is the problem with all of their high-end products is like, can Apple, you know, get motivated? Can Apple get out of the bed in the morning for something that sells less than a hojillion copies?

1:08:31And it's like, well, do you want to be in this market at all? I mean, the current Mac Pro is not encouraging in that area. So I don't know. you know we're not even talking about when when that thing's gonna be revised for the m3 ultra or whatever and speaking of the m3 though all the rumors and again i don't keep track of what the exact cadences are but all the rumors before were like oh by this point we'll be getting the plane m3 and then in spring we get the m3 pro and m3 max and then you know after that we get the ultra and like the the sort of expected cadence of how things come out but with the m3 by all accounts you know again maybe you're listening to this it already happened and we're you know we're wrong but anyway by all accounts people don't expect any m3 stuff this year by the rumors right but i feel like they should be here by now and the fact that they're not makes me worry what's the deal with what's the deal with it we know the three nanometer process is here it's they're selling it on the phone or whatever but is there is there some problem with the m3 uh did the schedule slip for some reason does that mean that the you know should put it this way are they going to ship something with m3 pro and m3 max before plain old m3 that seems like ridiculous to me but i'm just wondering what their schedules are my guess is that you know the the m3 almost certainly needs three nanometer production it's and it's you know it's a bigger chip than the phone versions and then the m3 pro and max and ultra are even bigger versions of that and my guess is they intentionally scheduled the m3 to be next year not this fall so that they could get so they could reserve all that 3 nanometer capacity for the iPhone Pros for this year.

1:10:05So my guess is it was always planned for next year. And then furthermore, there's the Vision Pro. Now this affects a lot of what we were just talking about in terms of excitement, holiday-ness, things like that. Vision Pro is, they keep saying it's still on track to be launched, quote, early next year. And that's 5 nanometer M2, not M3. Correct. So I can't see them announcing that as an M2 product if it's going to launch after nice, cool M3 products. I think what's going to happen is they're going to launch the Vision Pro with its M2 chip before any M3 products are released. And I don't think they're holding back the M3 products to make the Vision Pro look good.

1:10:49I think it was always planned that way. I don't know. I don't think they care about the comparison across those lines. And also, I think the Vision Pro has so many difficulties in getting to market that it's just going to slip and end up going past them anyway. like i you know everyone thinks the m3 uh pro and you know like the pro and max laptops are going to come you know early next year sometime like they're basically the time that we expected them to come and those are sort of the important products and by the way i think by that point i don't know the details but i think by that point tsmc would be on to like the new three nanometer revision like m3b or something instead of n3e i can't keep track of these things but yeah the other one yeah the better one and that would make sense if you're going to make a bigger chip you want the the one that has better yields um if that is still on track i still i still have trouble figuring out when are the plain old m3 products are going to arrive right because they're you know if they're not coming now and are they going to come at the same time as the m3 pro max ones or are they going to come in the spring and the m3 pro max ones are pushed out later in the year like you know we're getting off track of like after october event what needs to be updated it's clear that a lot of times don't need to be updated again they're all they're they're great they're the cpus that are in them their features their prices the compliments of ram ssd space everything about them is fine they don't have lighting ports like they do not need to be updated but it would be an it would be exciting if in an october event we got m3 something and all the rumors being so strongly against us having it uh it's just you know make it kind of a kind of a sad event not that i don't care about revised ipads but especially if it's revised ipads as we discussed that they're revised in a way that doesn't clarify and unify the line which we don't expect it to they're just going to be you know it's good that they have updates spec bump internals it's good that they're not as old as they used to be prices are probably about the same that's fine but it is not satisfying and the only the only rumor of anything new that i've heard is the apple pencil 3 and honestly i'm not excited about that i'm not excited about magnetic tips I'm not excited about if it was lightning versus USB-C changeover.

1:12:57I just, I don't know. So it's not, you know, it's hard to talk about this because, again, we're recording on Monday. And by the time you hear this, maybe the event already happened. You know what it was. But going into it, I'm not very excited. I am curious to see if there is a new Apple Pencil. I think that actually could be interesting. In the sense, it wouldn't be something that I'm going to use every day because I hardly ever use the one I have because I can't draw. But it's the kind of product that I look at and I see a lot of uses for other people, including in my own household. Both the other members of my household use Apple Pencils regularly.

1:13:30So what is a third-gen Apple Pencil? Maybe it can possibly work with future large iPhones. Who knows? Maybe they change the way it charges to be more compatible. Maybe they change some of the other physical aspects of it. Maybe they add an eraser. Who knows? There are so many different things. You know, maybe they put a button on the side finally, for the love of God, instead of having these weird tap gestures that you always accidentally click. Like, there are lots of ways that product could be improved. That's actually interesting. Yeah, so you're casting about for an Apple Pencil, which is at least slightly likely to happen.

1:14:06Meanwhile, I'm looking at the displays page on Apple's website, and I just keep thinking to myself, you know what would be really cool is a high refresh rate studio display. I would love that. It's not going to happen. No. Well, at least not soon. Why would the studio display get a higher refresh rate before the XDR? Because it's got fewer pixels to refresh quicker. No, that's not. And more people buy it. And more people buy it. Why are you so grumpy? Tell me why I'm wrong. No, I mean, first of all, as people have pointed out, and this is kind of silly, but if you look at what Apple has done, it makes sense.

1:14:42They called it ProMotion. And I know it's not Pro with the space. It's ProMotion squished together, right? is capital p capital right but it does have pro in the name and that's kind of like it's it's being withheld from the non-pro phones which at this point i mean eventually look if they keep calling it pro like are they going to say a non-pro iphone is never going to have 120 hertz screen i think it's inevitable it will have to just eventually it will have to so they'll have to break this rule this quote-unquote unwritten rule like it has pro in the name only goes on pro products but high refresh rate like that makes things more expensive you to take advantage of it you need a powerful gpu that is capable of displaying something that you'd want to see besides the ui it's something higher than 60 frames for a second i don't i don't see that going to the studio first and studio doesn't even have real hdr yet for crying out loud and you think it's going to go promotion i mean you're right technically that they could put promotion on it easier than they can put hdr like as in for less money uh but it that would be such a weird a weird uh sort of counter to their market segmentation essentially like the pro things have these features the non-pro things don't and that's the way it works i would much rather see a studio display that remains 60 hertz but has hdr because as far as i'm concerned for the people who buy that monitor hdr is going to be more beneficial because they can see all the pictures they take on their iphones on their big mac screen the way they're supposed to be seen in hdr just like they see them on their phone screen and who needs 120 hertz like oh scrolling is smoother in a way that only a few nerds can tell or can you find a game that can even render it more than 60 frames a second that you care about that runs on your mac that you have a studio display attached to uh so yeah but anyway it's all a moot point because the studio display is not going to be updated for another starter clocks four years let's say i don't know remember the rumors when it was like as soon as casey bought it they were gonna update it to for uh hdr with a mini led that didn't happen i was so excited because hey it's a new world apple's releasing monitors maybe they won't do it like they used to maybe they will revise this but so far they seem to be on the old apple monitor update track which is very slow yeah i don't know i just think i i agree with you that hdr would also be great i'm not as convinced about your segmentation theory but i mean por qué no less dose give me hdr and fast refresh rate why not baby i'll take both it's not going to happen and there at least not anytime soon but i'll take both i don't know what else is there anything else you need to talk about do we have that covered are we good now because watch is new phones are new we talked about ipad and mac vision pro ain't out yet uh the home pod apple tv i mean i i don't know what they would do to the apple tv other than i mean wasn't it actually updated fairly recently Yeah, it was a few months ago.

1:17:28Yeah, I know. You can just keep putting a bigger and faster SoC in it so people can play better games on their remote as a controller. I don't know. And the HomePod mini is slightly old, but it's not old enough. It's still fine. And they're not going to update it to anything people actually want. I don't know. I'm kind of down on that. I'm kind of living the Sonos lifestyle now. I'm kind of down on my HomePod. When are we talking about that? I want to talk about it. Eventually. we have one more one more interesting topic for today that i thought was just strange and hilarious and it's going around the internet as of this monday and that is uh mark german had a rumor uh the title of this is apple ready system to load up latest software onto unopen iphones here it is quoting from german apple is planning a new system for its retail stores that will update the software on iphones prior to sale the company has developed a proprietary pad-like device that the store can place boxes of iPhones on top of.

1:18:26The system can then wirelessly turn on the phone, update its software, and then power it back down all without the phone's packaging ever being opened. The company aims to begin rolling this out to its stores before the end of the year. So at first I saw this and I was like, this is a joke, right? Like we all know, we all know the problem that you get a phone, you take it out of the box, and the first thing it needs to do is run a software out there because it was manufactured two weeks ago or whatever and there's been an update since then in fact we've had situations where a new iphone comes out and everyone's like before you even try to transfer this this year right before you even try to transfer data from your old phone make sure you update the os like it'll prompt you to do it and do it right because if you don't the transfer could fail blah blah blah right this is always the problem with harbor you have to put that has to put an operating system on all these phones put them in boxes seal them up and you know during that time they get sealed up and they're being sent to you uh new versions of the operating system come out maybe critical fixes come out and so they're you know i understand why apple wants this the thing i immediately thought of before considering the silliness of this whole thing is like apple's uh move from air to sea instead of shipping things by plane which puts a lot of more carbon in the atmosphere they want to ship things by boat which is much more efficient in terms of carbon per phone shipped boats are way slower which means you have to have even more lead time so instead of making them in a week before i'm putting whatever the os is a week before now you gotta put the os that's on them two weeks three weeks four weeks a month that really hurts apple's lead times on when the operating system needs to be done unless when the boxes arrive in the apple store you can put each one in turn on top of a magic pad that will turn on the iphone inside the box and update the os and then turn it off now the obvious problem is the os update doesn't want to run on phones if your battery is too low it'll be like sorry i can't run this os update you better plug in your phone what is it 50 charge that it demands there's so yeah when you get a phone out of a box it doesn't have 100 charge it usually has more than 50 and presumably they'll be do the smart thing and say hey if you put this box this phone on top of this box this magic pad and it wakes up the phone and determines that it has you know 49 charge it will refuse to update it but if that's the case what's the point of this system you're either going to make sure all the phones are updated or you're only going to make sure the lucky phones are updated the ones that happen to retain enough charge on their journey across the sea they can be updated so when you get a phone you never know what you're going to get until you open it was it one of the lucky ones that was able to be updated never mind if something goes wrong with the processor or goes into like a boot loop inside the box or whatever and you open up this box and you get a weird software doa brick phone because they hosed it by putting on top of a little magic pad at the apple stores i'm not sure this is the right solution to this problem but it is very neat sounding i i had the same thought of like the the power question like are they going to somehow power the phones just put a little hole in the side of the box and you can shove a camera i mean chi charging is a thing and i know it's not supposed to be the range that we're talking about here but yeah that's you put the put the iphone really close to the bottom of the box maybe this is the it's the air power thing or whatever what it was called the the plate thing yeah coming back around i mean if oh remember it wasn't there there was that that startup for like i forget what it was called p cell wasn't it power over air yeah exactly yeah like i don't think that ever went anywhere um but you know i i think there we have a significant problem of powering and and so you know john what you were saying was basically assuming that they probably wouldn't be able to power it and that's my first thought is like if they can't power the phone is this really going to work and then second of all how long does it does this take for each box to take its turn on top of the pad right right and like does do the stores have the time and the and like to handle the volume of phones they're selling to put every phone through this process like 40 minutes like how long does it take to do an os update like 30 minutes sometimes i mean the smaller ones take yeah it's not super fast and what like are they just going to like image some of the or you know stick some of the phones for this process and maybe have to bypass it for others like i i don't know and then how do you keep i guess you keep track of which ones because you put them on it like you can to be clear you can't there are ways to deliver power to a phone even when it's in the middle of the box but a lot of them involve potential heat yeah right like it's again you're like do you really want to be messing with a phone that's in a box at all like i just i almost feel like the hole in the box that you can plug them in is actually the better solution to this because it's just it's straightforward and then you don't have to worry about power but wow so so weird like this is and maybe this has nothing to do with the boats but this is such a weird problem to be tackling and in such a weird way and in a way that just seems like it couldn't possibly really really solve the problem it can make it better but but in exchange for having this weird phone box lot i guess the phone box lottery already exists because the ones in the factories now are getting a new version of the u.s versus the ones that shipped in the original thing so i maybe that's not as bad as i think it is but what what a weird thing to even think about doing well i think if you're if you if this is something that you want to do i think it's possible to do it correctly and and well i think you would have to have power delivery and that could be achieved if you redesign the packaging to put the phone's charging cable charging coil near the bottom of the box but that's kind of a strange packaging design then i mean like there's other things like you'd have to like you know lift the cable off the front or whatever i mean you could have a thing plugged into it you could have like a little thing plugged into it like it's kind of like the the xbox elite controller when you put it in its case it has a little it has like a little hole for the plug.

1:24:10Like you could have a thing plugged into the USB-C port, like a little ribbon thing that's just for packaging, it's not a real thing, that goes down to the bottom of the box and has like an inductive coil in the cardboard or something. I just realized, if you just put the phone upside down, like put the phone upside down on the box so that you open it up, you see the Apple logo inside of the screen, and then put it really close to the lid, and then you could put the box upside down. I mean, you don't want it close to the lid, though, for breakability reasons, right? Like you do want it to... I know.

1:24:36Well, if it's the back, it's pretty sturdy i don't know it it's like this is a very convoluted you know thought process to try to solve this problem but it's like how how big of a problem is this and and does it deserve this really convoluted solution that and i don't know how the retail staff is going to deal with this like it just seems like a very cumbersome process even if the pad is fully automated to have to put every single phone that's going to be sold to customers through this process i don't know that that sounds like that sounds difficult i don't know i agree with everything you guys are saying but um to play the role of contrarian i think we talked about on the show i don't remember if i just told you guys privately but when i went to return the fine woven case on like wednesday or something like that uh or no no i was at the apple store for some other reason i can't remember what it was oh no it was to pick up the case that's what it was i pick up picked up the case on wednesday the film was coming out two days later and i was making conversation with the with the salesperson and I asked, oh, you know, when do you get all the phones in?

1:25:35Do they arrive like, you know, Thursday night or whatever? And he was like, no, they're here now on Wednesday. And so if that's a normal thing, that gives you two additional days. You know, if they came in sometime like midday Wednesday or whatever, they could spend all afternoon and all evening Wednesday and all day Thursday and all, you know, overnight Friday, getting all these phones ready to hand to customers. Again, I'm not trying to say that you guys are wrong. I'm just saying it is possible. Also, how does the watch work? Like, is everything flashed during manufacturing, or do they have something like this before it goes in the box?

1:26:08Does it happen after it's in the box? Because I've got to imagine they've got to have already conquered this for the watch, potentially, right? By the way, real-time follow-up, I just checked an unboxing video. Modern iPhones already ship face-down in the box. So they actually are, the back of the iPhone where the charging cable is, is actually already close to the top edge of the box. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, obviously they'll get it close just for the data transfer and the waking up. Like, obviously some signaling has to happen through the thing. I just wonder if it's close enough for power without a lot of potential for heat.

1:26:39I mean, I guess they could have, you know, a huge fleet of these pads. And so you're doing many of them in parallel. And you just have people rotating the boxes every time something beeps. Like, you can come up with solutions to this. But it's, I mean, that's why I had to think it had to be in service of the boat shipment thing. Because why would you go through all this trouble? and maybe it's just like it's not feasible to hit the september date with boats if you're not willing to ship the phones from the factory with an os that you essentially know isn't final and maybe they really will say look either you successfully update it by putting it on the little pad or you don't sell it right because they'll ship with you know whatever the beta is or like i don't know what they would ship with but i don't think they've solved it for the phone to answer your question or for the watch to answer your question casey i think it's the same deal they put whatever os they have at the time on the watches and if you buy a watch that's been sitting in the back of an apple store for ages has got some ancient version of watch os on it it almost seems like i mean we're not at this point now but like in some future they could ship them with essentially nothing and they would all just like boot and do internet recovery the first time they boot up so they don't even come with an os you know what i mean but i think people would find that tremendously frustrating given how long it takes would take to do that you know um but at this point it's almost like that it's like yeah it comes out of the box with an os but it demands to be updated as soon as you open the box now i suppose if it's not like a problem like it was for the 15s where i wouldn't it could fail during data transfer yeah you could say yeah yeah i'll update you later just you know transfer my data and then you know you get prompted that night to to update or it updates overnight in the phone like i think that's something that people are normally useful used to but like i don't if if they really if these if they really want to give themselves more breathing room when shipping the phones, whether it's for a boat trip or not, just, you know, just to have more breathing room so they can, you know, work on the software up until the very last minute.

1:28:27I think they'd have to say that, like, we're going to update them all. Like, don't sell it unless you can put it on this little pad and it confirms it's got, like, whatever the minimum OS is where we say you can sell the phone. We are sponsored this episode by Collide. If you work in security or IT and your company has Okta, this message is for you. Have you noticed that for the past few years, the majority of data breaches and hacks you read about have something in common? It's employees. Hackers absolutely love exploiting vulnerable employee devices and credentials. But it doesn't have to be this way.

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1:29:50All right, let's do some Ask ATP. And we're going to start with Luke Askwith, who writes, if you could choose any three fixed focal lengths in your phone, which would you choose? Would you go for maximum range at the expense of doing a lot of digital zooming in between steps, or a closer trio for maximum quality with the photos you take the most often? And a follow-up question, if Apple introduced a fourth lens to the Ultra Pro Max phone next year, what do you think they would choose? For me, this is really tough to choose just three because I adore the 5X on my fancy new oversized phone, but there are definitely occasions where I want something more than one and something less than five.

1:30:27I feel like if I had to pick, I would probably choose one, three, and five, but I'm not at all confident about my answer here. And I bet you, after listening to you two, I'll probably change my mind. Wait, one, three, and five? Yeah, why not? Because I want to get - No wide? No point five? I don't, you know, if I only get three, I don't think so. If I get four, absolutely. But I don't use the ultra wide that often, I don't think. But maybe I'm lying to myself. I don't know. Tell me, what is the right answer, Marco? I had a really hard time with this, honestly. in the in the past when when the 2x didn't have a great solution i would have said that should be one of them but now i feel like the the the using of the middle of the 1x sensor as the 2x lens has pretty decent quality given that's what it's doing and it has better quality than the real 2x lenses ever had so i think they're satisfying that okay for now so i think i'm gonna go with the boring answer and say i would probably choose the three focal lengths that your phone already has not mine my phone has you know the the 0.5 one and three um and i i find the three to be both you know too zoomed in to be optically good um in the sense that the phone can't give it a good sensor at that zoomed in level but not zoomed in enough for for long reach you know at least the 5x lens that you have while it has the same like you know sensor size and optical um challenges that the 3x has it at least gives you more reek so it makes it a little more useful from a functional level um and and i i you know a lot of people like there was um there's a great episode of mac power users tyler stallman was on it and he's a really great photographer and he was talking all about the lenses and one point that he brought up is that you know from a photographer's point of view the 120 millimeter equivalent 5x lens compared to like the like 77 ish millimeter equivalent of the 3x the 3x lens is actually it's close to 85 millimeters which is a much more commonly used focal length by photographers for things like portraits whereas 120 it's is much more zoomed in than most photographers use for most creative needs it's that that becomes you know much more like telephoto use, you know, long reach stuff.

1:32:47I mentioned that I personally love shooting on 135 millimeter primes, but that's fairly unusual. Most photographers, they go to 85 for that and for the same things I was using 135 for. I think a lot of photographers would say, add an 85, you know, that's like you have, you know, one, the 85 would be like, you know, a 3.5 or whatever, and then maybe something longer if you want. But I actually really like 135 millimeter perspective. And I've had 85s before back in my camera days, and I never used them. Like I would try it here and there. I was never that happy with it. And so I use them very infrequently.

1:33:25So I'm weird in the sense that I actually want the lenses that Apple just delivered for your phone, but I want them in a phone the size of mine. Now, the follow up question, if they added a fourth lens next year to the ultra or pro, what do you think they would choose? that's of course different from what i would choose but i think what apple would choose it depends on what they can fit but it wouldn't surprise me if instead of having like on the big phone if they instead of having 0.5 1 and 5 maybe they do something like 0.5 1 3 and 6 you know put something in the middle and push the telephoto a little bit further out no no no if they do four what do you think they would choose first i don't think they're going to do four but if they did they they're going to do 0.5 one one and three oh for video capture for provision provision two two one x cameras for vision pro stuff like assuming that catches on in any way having two of the best cameras that are equal cameras to do vision pro capture i mean it's vision pro fizzles then and they do that it would be a mistake but uh right now i think that is the most obvious choice for two because they're really cutting it fine to say like oh well you know i wanted a different focal length people already i feel like are overwhelmed with i mean you don't see it you just see like in the camera app you just pick what you want but like there's more than enough camera lenses to give people the range that they want especially with the advent of the 5x and the fact that people don't care about the fact that it's a digital zoom a lot of the time if you pinch way too much i see my kids do it all the time they don't know what digital zoom is they don't care they just pinch until the picture shows what they want and it's like no one cares just it's an oil painting like it's just i don't even i don't know what sensor is he using but i know none of the cameras can zoom at this range so i but they just take the picture they don't care i have i've never seen a non-nerd out in the world use any of the preset focal length buttons on the bottom of the camera app they always just pinch to zoom wherever they want and that's it and that's fine until you're pinching way past the limit of any of the lenses even like on casey's thing oh they don't care it's 20x it's fine i want it to be 20x i can see my kid on stage like is that your kid or is that like five blobs of color no no one cares except us yeah yep can confirm but we do care for yeah for my uh three uh fixed focal lengths i'll hack this question a little bit and say i would just like 0.5 one and three but i want the 3x to be like a huge number of megapixels so i can crop it down to like 6x and it doesn't look like garbage because that is didn't specify within given sensor technology or within the current sensor sizes just give me a huge number number of pixels on a sensor in a 3x because i don't the thing about the 5x is i like the 3x kind of you know i don't want to be that zoomed in all the time it's the same thing you were talking about casey we're like that's a big jump from the one from the one slash two to the five that's why i want a three with enough pixels that i can crop down to five or six um if that's not possible i would just still do 0.5 one and three and the reason i keep pushing for the 0.5 is there are situations where there's no alternative to that like in particular like if you're trying to take a picture of an interior space not that you're a realtor or whatever but like even just like i was moving my son into his dorm room it's a little dorm room and you want to show like here's what alex's dorm room looks like so it's like a picture of it or whatever 0.5 you know you're backed into a corner you put it in 0.5 you can see all the stuff right yeah any kind of interior thing or any kind of like fun landscape thing it's the same like i don't love the 0.5 camera it's not great but it's it's just like the 3x like sometimes if you just have a 5 and a 1 there's nothing you can do to get that 3 or the 0.5 so i want to span the range like yeah it's not going to look great but i have the 0.5 i can get that shot now even though it's not great and the 3 lets me get that shot without you know having to like zoom in on the 1x before i can jump to the 5 so that's a boring answer but it's yeah it's the uh it's the lenses i've got on my phone right now i just want the 3x one to have so many more megapixels that i can crop it down to get the equivalent of a 5x or 6x i know talking in these x's is silly because you know marco was talking in millimeters like actual camera things but like when i think of my phone i think of it in terms of 0.5123 or whatever because that's the language that apple uses with its things and because honestly the focal lengths like i don't have any intuition about them because the sensors are so small right that the someone sent us like the table of like what is the full frame equivalent of the light gathering ability at various focal lengths and it's it's like off the charts like i think it was like the 3x lens was like f21 equivalent or something it's just like these these numbers don't make any sense in real camera parlance so i'm sticking with the the 0.51x3x yeah like i think it's i always think back to the distinction i talked about this recently like the distinction between um you know I'm using my iPhone camera to take a great picture versus I'm using my iPhone camera for some kind of function, like, you know, like a functional need.

1:38:16Like, you know, I want to remember what where I'm parked. So let me get a picture of the sign in the lot that says or I get a picture of a receipt or something up close. Yeah. Like there's so many there's so many times that I'm using the iPhone camera for some some kind of functional need, not some kind of artistic or memory capture need. and in those those are the times when i use things like the 3x to zoom in to see oh i'm in parking zone you know three blue or i use the 0.5x so i can say look here's the room i'm in you know what's that like there there are so many times like that where the the optical quality is not super important but what's important is trying to capture some kind of information or or see some kind of information and so isn't the point isn't the point the only macro one as well isn't that what it switches to for macro yes it can focus the closest yeah i mean and macro people use i use of that all the time all the time i reach my phone around the back of an appliance take a picture with the flash so i can see what the stupid serial number is 0.5 because i'm going to be a centimeter from it like that is a functional need yeah exactly like the having close focus ability is extremely useful on a phone camera so that's why like as much as like you know trying to capture like artistically pleasing pictures at super wide focal lengths is difficult it's not like and and optically that sensor is not great uh but that is a very functionally useful camera the 0.5 is very functionally useful so i don't want to give it up even though i never use it for like artistic reasons uh but the one x is you know where where i'm taking most of my pictures and it looks pretty good most of the time etc etc so i'd love i mean honestly i would rather have If they gave me a certain number of square millimeters of sensor size to spend however I wanted, I would put it all in the 1x sensor.

1:40:06Leave the.5 where it is, it's fine. And then put any other possible camera expansion you're willing to do, make the 1x sensor bigger and better. I'd rather have that than almost anything else. Nick writes, is there any way to add music to the music app on ios without a mac or pc or buying it via itunes for example with no computer access at all i don't listen enough to justify monthly fees for spotify or apple music if not is there an app that can do this i don't know what it is with all you people and refusing to buy computers these days no i i don't have any freaking clue i i've got nothing yeah i do wonder i mean we talk about this all the time that the iphone or the ipad is like the primary only computer for so many people it's just you know people i know this is a show for people who are quote unquote into computers and we think of that being macs or you know the windows of everyone being pcs but i do wonder you know just i think most people just get by with their phone and it's it's true if they're you know someone writing this in knows that it used to be possible like if they had a mac or a pc there are ways to do it because there's some app that you can run on your mac or your pc that you can transfer mp3 files onto your phone and listen to them but like but what if i don't have our mac a pc what do i do then the problem with this question that says i want to add music to the music app as in the apple music app i'm sure there are third-party music playing apps that let you do this like maybe they even use the camera connection kit where you just plug in a thing and like put an sd card and read your mp3s off of it like you could do that but the music app apple's music app like essentially how do you get the things into your quote-unquote itunes library within a mat without a mac or a pc there are ways to do it the only one i got to the point where i was going to try like i started walking through the process was using garage band believe it or not because apparently you can put something you can put something in icloud drive and then garage band can pull it from icloud drive and then garage band can send it to your itunes your quote-unquote itunes library that makes me think there's got to be i mean is that a public api the garage man there's got to be some way to get things into there like but it just it seems so weird that there would be no way at all to this and the reason i put this you know i think this is relevant to uh what we're talking about is we just got done talking about hey i've got an ipad and i want to back up my photos um besides just doing icloud thing what can i use for that so i guess right in if you know a way to do this is there a third-party app that can jam things into your quote-unquote itunes library um the question and i know people are gonna say just use this third-party app that has nothing to do with Apple's music app, but that's not what the question asks.

1:42:38And if the answer to this is like GarageBand or nothing, that's not a great answer. Also, so what Nick says in this question is, I don't listen enough to justify monthly fees for Spotify or Apple Music. That kind of sounds to me like Nick wouldn't have iTunes Match either. Apple Music includes iTunes Match, and iTunes Match was that feature a million years ago where you could basically sync your Apple, sync your iTunes music library with files that you uploaded between different devices that you owned at that point max i think this is before iphones even existed i think or at least it was around that time no it was during it was during iphone time but anyway so this would require itunes match i would or that or the equivalent functionality in ample music because you're what you're asking is somehow add files i guess if you're if you're adding it from your phone you want it to be available in the music app on your phone so maybe it wouldn't count as a different device but i don't know regardless the answer is basically know yeah i mean there's always the garage band approach and you can google for it it's it's byzantine though i would never try to do it for uh you know large volumes of music you basically have to make a new garage band track and pull a thing into it as like an instrument or a loop or something as the one and only track and then it's it's ridiculous i gave up before i accomplish it but i do believe that it is possible um itunes match there was some discussion about this recently i i recently unsubscribed from itunes match which i had been subscribed to out of fear for ages even though i'm also an apple music subscriber and i unsubscribed to it and they're like everything went fine nothing bad happened but apparently what this means is that if you were to re-download a song from your library on another device if you had itunes match and that song was something you like ripped from a cd and put into your library if you subscribe to itunes match when you re-download that on another device like saying i don't have it on this device but i know i uploaded to my max music library and i subscribed to itunes match so here i am on this other computer or this other device i should be able to download that that particular file uh if you subscribe to itunes match you get a drm free if you don't subscribe to itunes match when you download that file you get a drm copy and the whole thing with itunes match is what they're saying is we will match your songs like what you just want is like how about i just put a bunch of mp3s in a folder and you sync them everywhere apple and then i can play them how about that and apple says no what apple says is okay you ripped a bunch of mp3s from cds back in the 90s right and you put them in your itunes library what we'll do is we'll analyze those mp3s figure out what song we think it is and then put a little bit in your database entry that says okay this person has this song by this artist because we saw they had an mp3 over here and so when they're on another machine and they ask us hey can i get that song that i wrote for my cd we're not going to take the file from their Mac and upload it to the cloud and download it.

1:45:23No, no, no. What we're going to do is look for our little record and says, yeah, we saw your MP3 and we think it's this song by this artist. If you're an iTunes match subscriber, here's a DRM free copy of it. If you're not, here's an Apple Music DRM encumbered copy of it. And you're like, but I've got a DRM free MP3 over there. Why don't you just give me that one? I ripped that at 128 kilobits per second in 1994. Give me that file. And Apple again says no. So I think this is like a weird system that's a uh you know has weird historical baggage behind it the fact that it's called a match the whole idea is they are matching your mp3s with what song they think it is and deciding what version to give to you i don't regret unsubscribing from itunes match but itunes match of all the apple services it was a bargain it was 25 for an entire year and what essentially gave you was the illusion of you know a folder that syncs filled with your music again there's got to be third-party music apps that are just like i don't know anything or care anything about apple in iTunes, you just give me a bunch of MP3s and I'll sync them everywhere.

1:46:19And you could, you could do that yourself with Dropbox or whatever. I guess you could just play them from the Dropbox interface. Like, you know, you can fashion yourself your own third-party music playing application out of one of these many cloud sync services. But Apple Music is very encumbered by historical baggage and weirdness. And I think part of the result of that is the answer to the next question is at least we don't know a good way to do it. Yeah. Rock Ripley writes, I just got a Synology and was working on making the Synology available when away from home for, you know, basically via the internet.

1:46:49Well, there's more than one way to do this. It seems as though you get the fastest connection if you log into the Synology through either a VPN or port forwarding. The internet seems to prefer the VPN, especially OpenVPN, for security reasons. Can someone explain why this is so? It looks like many Synology services only require HTTPS on port 5001, and I can only gain access after logging in with my credentials. So it seems conservatively, I could get access to many services by making one or only a few ports available and by using an encrypted connection. Similarly, a VPN requires an encrypted connection and login credentials.

1:47:19So why would one be more secure than the other? Is it the nature of the encryption, the fact that practically many ports need to be forwarded to make port forwarding workable, or something else? The way I look at this is the safest approach is to not let anything poke into your network until you've already passed some sort of credential check. So in order to get onto the network that, you know, remotely, this is by some VPN. I don't personally use OpenVPN, but, you know, that's fine. Then first, in order to get on the network, you need to authenticate. And then, yeah, it's a second layer of authentication to get into the Synology.

1:47:56I don't personally think that's necessary, but I think that is probably the rightest answer. For me, I port forward a couple of selective ports when appropriate and turn on a lot of the Synology's protections for like, you know, oh, I'm going to try 17 ,000 logins and hope that it doesn't lock me out or whatever the case may be. I don't know. John, you probably have a stronger feeling and or answer about this. What is your recommendation or how would you like to explain it? Yeah, I don't have a strong feeling about it. If I had to do it, I would probably do the VPN approach. Maybe it's just all those years in corporate America getting me used to the idea of signing into a VPN.

1:48:33It just seems like a natural thing to do to protect the network. And even though, as you noted, once you're on that network, there are still many more layers of password. What I personally choose to do is not expose my synology to the Internet. So that solves that problem, sort of. But yeah, like, you know, my all of our home network security is probably not as good as it should be just because doing that type of stuff is a pain. And if you're not, even if you are a network administrator by trade, but even if you're not, it's just like you just want to not have to think about it. You just want to buy reasonably secure stuff.

1:49:04And my strategy is like just don't expose anything to the Internet if you can possibly help it. And, you know, if you can get away with that, then, you know, don't worry about it. But if I had to do it, yeah, I would go with VPN. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Collide, and Hatch. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join, and we will talk to you next week.

1:49:54the show notes at atp.fm and if you're into twitter you can follow them at c-a-s-e-y-l-i-s-s so that's casey list m-a-r-c-o-a-r-m-n-t marco armen s-i-r-a-c-u-s-a-s-sirac user it's accidental accidental they didn't mean to accidental tech podcast so long i have a very small mini thing that's not even really a topic it's more of a sentence um i have noticed i'm for whatever it's worth the apple watch series 9 i miss my titanium but one thing i do not miss is times during a workout with previous apple watches where i'd look down and check my heart rate and it would just be dimmed out because it just wouldn't read for a little while oh yeah that's very frustrating the apple watch series 9 and ultra 2 one of the features they they very briefly breezed past in their introduction is they both with with their new neural engine capabilities with the s9 they've upgraded the heart monitoring sensor as well the heart rate monitoring sensor to use some kind of ml to figure out your heart rate better and i have noticed for whatever it's worth so far in my workouts using the series 9 every single time i glance down at the watch to see my heart rate it's there and it's updating pretty frequently that's nice so i think that actually is i mean i think they kind of underplayed the the importance of that if i'm if i'm right about this but that's it seems like a pretty big upgrade that it seems like it is tracking my heart rate very significantly better than the old ones did.

1:51:47This is the same size watch with the same strap at the same hole. It isn't like it's a tighter fit or anything. It's the big watch with the sport strap on the third hole. I've used this for a long time now. I've had the same results with previous Apple watches but it was the same. It would work a lot of the time but a lot of times you'd look down and you'd see that grayed out heart rate. The new one seems significantly improved in that area. So while I do very much miss my titanium, that is a pretty cool upgrade that I think no one really is talking about.

1:52:28All right, we can actually get to bed at a reasonable time tonight. Fire on all cylinders. Yeah, yeah. Not you, though, because you don't have any cylinders. No. Oh, my God, it's so good. It's cylinders and it's brakes. Oh, fair enough, fair enough. One thing I've been doing recently in the Rivian is, so part of the beach just closed because of various erosion problems that have happened and it's too narrow to drive on. So I have to drive on the interior sand road for more of the trip now. It's basically like driving through a nature preserve but with occasional houses. And one thing I have discovered and I absolutely love it is because it's electric and therefore it's basically silent.

1:53:07although there's an asterisk on that but it's basically silent what i've been doing when i've been driving through that kind of like sandy nature preserve area is just rolling the windows down turning off the music and turning off the hvac so it's just nothing and just quietly like silently gliding through and because i'm on soft sand there's only not any tire noise so the only noise i hear is like the little tiny whooshing noise that the car has to make to comply with like pedestrian safety standards i was gonna say like that all these cars make some kind of noise so you don't run over pedestrians yeah so it's so it has a very slight wooshy noise but it's i gotta say rivian's version of it is is pretty tasteful and i mean i would say difficult to notice which i know might be going against its purpose but you know it it is a very tastefully done noise like i've heard yeah everything the rivian is nature sounds right it's like birds chirping and stuff like that is it making those because i was gonna say i enjoy listening to the birds no no not not for not for the not for the idle sound but like like when you unlock it and stuff like that isn't that all like nature sounds um i don't think there's a lot it doesn't make a lot of sounds at all which is good frankly uh you know i don't want my cars to make a lot of sounds but uh but yeah anyway i've loved just like hearing the birds and the crickets and the sand and like the waves like oh my god it is it is delightful silence the car and just creep through this wonderful sand environment, it brightens my day every time.

1:54:35It's so nice. It's this little joy that I would never have expected with this change to electric cars, but it just so happens. What a cool thing. I'm really enjoying this. I just told Tiff today, I'm so happy with this vehicle. I hope it stays good. That's my only concern now. What's going to break? Are you going to ruin my software updates? Are you worried about that or are you worried about stuff breaking? Well, did you see what Steven put in Slack actually just an hour or so ago? Yeah, they're actually, they literally just did a software update. Like I told my car to do it right before the show.

1:55:11It popped up. I'll see tomorrow how it is. But, you know, they're changing a whole bunch of various things around. But so far, I have found their UI to be pretty good. It's not perfect. I still want CarPlay for navigation and music. But their UI overall is pretty good. I'm pretty happy with it. So far, they have earned my trust that they won't screw it up too badly simply because of the design they've shown so far. We'll see over time. I mean, look, I originally said I enjoyed Tesla's UI for a while too. And then over time, they got new designers in there and ruined it. So we'll see. Hopefully, that same thing won't happen to Rivian.

1:55:54But so far, I'm so enjoying this vehicle. is one of the sounds as you silently glide through the in-road trail the sounds of bushes scraping their branches against the side of your paint job a little bit yeah sometimes it's so wide you know that sound or splashing myself through a giant deep puddle because you know it's very very bumpy yeah do you get to like i mean i was gonna say maybe you get to sneak up on animals more but i imagine the electronic whooshing is probably scaring them away oh no the only animals that are nearby that are irrelevant. Or deer that aren't afraid of you anyway. Yes, like I literally, I drove right past a giant buck today.

1:56:30Like it was maybe eight feet away from the cars I crept by and it just looked at me like, what the hell am I doing there? It's going to more things to scrape up your paint job and bring those antlers over. Yeah, right. You should hear the electronic, speaking of whooshing sounds. So there's the external whooshing sounds to protect pedestrians and stuff, but there's also, of course, the internal sounds that every car plays on the speaker to or not every car but the sportier cars play to make you feel like you're doing something sporty obviously the internal combustion noise that we talked about for ages but uh like uh the some electric cars do it as well and some there are some electric cars that choose to try to make an internal combustion noise which is weird uh but a lot of them also they come up with some sort of electronic sci-fi noise that they decide is exciting sounding for when you're accelerating and uh the the most interesting one i heard recently was the the corvette e-ray which is a c8 corvette with uh the this regular v8 but then on the front axle it's got an electric motor that is completely independent and totally not attached to the rear of the car in any way whatsoever except for through computers which is fun and that's got a skinny little tiny battery in the center tunnel um anyway when you accelerate in that thing obviously it's got the actual v8 noise it's a big loud engine then i think it also has artificial v8 noise because why wouldn't it and then it has the sci-fi noise that it ramps up as you go faster and by the time by the time you're going fast the sci-fi noise like dominates the actual v8 noise it's so weird it's very star trekkie it definitely looks fun in youtube videos but as some of the reviews said like it's fun the first few days but it gets tiring i don't know if you could turn it off they didn't say that you could but i'm not looking forward to the day when i have to worry about the sounds that my car is artificially making in the hopes that i will be excited by them not looking forward to that at all it's all right uh for you and me if we decide to stick with burning dead dinosaurs apparently the only people what we'll be able to get a car from is porsche because they're saying until we electrify we're keeping the manuals and i don't believe anything any of these car companies say because the people who say it uh get fired or leave and the new people come and that's the problem remember when it was uh the the ceo ferrari said we'll make an suv over my dead body uh then they fired him they got a new ceo and he made an suv yep so yeah porsche will do that until they won't uh yeah it's not a stick shift like honestly it's the silly like at this point i don't even think it's safe for me to buy internal combustion combustion engine because start stop i cannot i cannot handle start stop it's really annoying a lot of cars let you disable it but then they re-enable it every time you start the car kind of like the i think they have to timeline and threads probably but like some of them have like an easy way to defeat it of like putting a jumper on a fuse or doing some secret code or whatever but like i don't want to have to look to see is it possible to have this car with the start stop thing like permanently disabled or is it possible you can buy one without it anymore like same thing with like the rev lockouts like it's not a big deal but like all the youtube videos of like no i got a fancy new car listen to my engine rev vroom vroom you know that type of thing all of them have soft limiters on them that say hey when you're sitting idle and the car is like not moving you can't go higher than 3000 rpm why emissions testing it's like everything is about you know do something that makes the car worse so we can fake like the car is better than it is within these tests the car is not as good as it says but like oh if we don't let you rev it more than 3 000 then the idle emissions will never be above it's just so dumb so depressing just want a straightforward machine there's there's an easy solution here i mean the electric i said the electronic ones make weird electronic toys i would want an electric car obviously i understand the pedestrian safety that's got to be you know make the noise on the outside i get that and hopefully it would be a pleasing noise not an annoying one but inside the car i don't want to hear anything like and the problem is the sound the actual sound of electric cars is not particularly pleasing so you kind of got to try to block it all out like the actual sound of like electric engine wine not artificial but like the real sound oh i like it it's not a great noise because because it sounds like like you In the same way that gas engine sounds are not pleasing at first.

2:00:38The very first time you ever hear a gas engine sound, it just sounds like a long fart. But the reason why you find it pleasing to have a big engine sound after a while is because you associate that sound with performance and the going. That's not just it. There are pleasing engine internal combustion sounds, mostly probably because they sound like animal noises and then animal noises. They sound like animal gas noises. But not all of them. No, but I'm saying like you associate you come to associate those sounds with the speed and the performance that you like. Well, once you drive electric, you come to associate the electric motor sounds with speed and performance.

2:01:20And so those sound good to you once you are used to them being a positive thing. i don't i mean it's not i'm not gonna i'm not against them i don't think they sound bad i just find them because mostly because they're higher pitched i think it's what it comes down to right you know what i mean like higher pitch noises can be more annoying and unlike internal combustion engines where there's so much work done to especially back in the olden days before catalytic converters and emission testing or whatever to try to tune the noise that you hear when you're sitting inside the car to be the most pleasing to you lots of cars had things where they would have various baffles and stuff that they open and close into the cabin of the car so that it sounds better inside the car because you're right lots of there are lots of noises that don't sound good in internal combustion engines but they would tune them to say let's let in the good sounds at the right point in the you know the the whole emissions and things like so they come into the cabin to sound good or even just put it's being put a big induction scoop over the hood of the car so that's right behind your head or whatever but i'm not sure there are a lot of good sounds to funnel into the cabin from electric motors there are just the sort of high-pitched wind of electric motors that there's not a lot of nuance and there are there is a lot of like there are bad sounds that you want to funnel out but i'm not sure how much you can make it good it seems like every car maker has decided for both these kinds of engines whatever it sounded makes for real we don't want any of that we will we'll just get a sound designer to make up some bs whether it's a bs internal combustion engine or a bs sci-fi spaceship noise and we want you to hear that and to the degree that we can totally damp the actual sound our car is making we'll do that if only we could all drive slowly on sand then we wouldn't have tire noise either it is really good well i i would love i don't know how realistic or legal this would be um or even if it's a good idea but i would love if the vehicle is in off-road mode if it didn't make the sound like i think that's kind of reasonable but i don't know that's just that's just a random thought are you run over people in the woods too like a yeah i'm sure there's some compliance reason why they can't do that yeah although you can find whatever fuse it is or some secret code that you enter into the infotainment system that turns off the external sound making you a yellow killing machine