588: Sync Up Your Cycle

47:20All our Macs from now on are going to be Siri Macs because Siri is so important. Siri plus Macs. Or Macs plus Siri. I think you're right that the AI stuff and co-pilot stuff is perhaps not enough to sell these machines, even though it did look pretty slick to me. But there is a lot here that is good because it turns out that making a full bore computer out of an ARM based processor has some benefits who knew so uh it's so known as copilot plus pcs they're meant to kickstart a generation of powerful battery efficient windows laptops and lay the groundwork for an ai powered future so the minimum specs for a copilot plus pc and i think these are the only three things that were ever enumerated maybe there's more but you need 16 gigs of ram or more you need a 256 gig hard drive or more and you need a npu or i guess neural processing unit is that right uh capable of 40 tops they talked about tops all the time all over and over again tops so these minimum specs apply to everybody who wants to use the copilot plus pcs branding and this is how microsoft is essentially trying to herd the pc market in a direction hey microsoft's going to put a lot of money into marketing this terrible name right do you want to be able to say that you're selling a copilot plus pc they went to all their pc hardware vendors and said we hope we want you all to make copilot plus PCs we're going to market this you're going to sell these things you're going to do it we're going to do it together but if to get the copilot plus pc branding you have to meet this minimum spec 16 gigs of ram you know 26 blah blah right 16 gigs of ram as a minimum spec for copilot plus pc is yet another slap in the face of apple and their stupid eight gigabyte ram based on so many of their models now you might say well it's because windows uses so much more memory and the ai stuff uses so much more memory and apple is more memory efficient so they only need eight is yada yada yada the point is apple puts too little ram in its things and so the minimum spec being 16 really is starting to slap around apple 256 gig hard drive is a little small but whatever the npu thing we talked about this last week 40 trillion operations per seconds what kind of operations 8-bit integer operations 64-bit floating point operations 32-bit integer operations no one ever wants to specify but based on the what we saw last week of how apple's own numbers change from the m3 being 18 tops to the m4 being 38 tops and that be because oh that was 18 16 bit tops but it's 38 8 bit tops i have to think this 40 number is 8 bit but microsoft didn't specify so if you're trying to compare tops it's a it's a bad it's not really a unit because you don't know what they're operating on right how many one bit operations can you do per second you can do even more like and for people who don't know about like simdi instructions and stuff like that it's basically like you have a certain amount of space to put a bunch of numbers in and you could put like two 8-bit numbers or one 16-bit number if you put two 8-bit numbers and you add that value oh i just did two additions but if you put one 16-bit number you just did one addition but in either case you added that you know those things to another set of those things right so it's a little bit fudging of these numbers and what tops means and i'm really not happy about tops being a thing that manufacturers are touting because none of them seem interested in telling us what those operations were performed on maybe there's some kind of unification about them always touting the biggest number which i guess everyone's decided going going smaller than 8-bit seems kind of cheap so maybe it's 40 trillion 8-bit operations but we don't know but anyway this is basically saying you got to have some kind of neural engine to use apple speak that has decent performance to be a Copilot Plus PC.

51:03It doesn't seem like this is just a bunch of BS, that they're actually inferior hardware, that is that they're just pumping up at the stats. It seems from the tests they've shown so far, of course, with all the caveats that these are like demo tests from a keynote or whatever, it seems like this is actually likely to be real competition for Apple's M chips. And that's fantastic. Well, the M4 was 38 tops. And this is 40. So, yeah, ballpark. Right. And so far, the rest of the performance seems like it's actually theoretically going to actually provide really good competition. And for me, even though I'm a huge Apple fan, and especially of the Mac, I hope these are faster than the M chips.

51:49Because Apple is at its best when there's really good competition. And there are parts of Apple that are extremely complacent recently. Now, the thing is, the Mac hardware division really is not among them. The Mac hardware is great, and it's better than it's ever been, and it's updated despite earlier conversations about the Mac Studio and Mac Pro. The overall Mac hardware lineup is updated pretty well now, and pretty much every model of Mac now is in a really good place for the most part. And so I wouldn't say Mac hardware is being complacent or slacking off or taking their foot off the gas.

52:28I would say Mac software is. And I would say certainly we'll see what happens with Apple and any of their modern AI features that may or may not be announced in a few weeks. We'll see. That remains to be seen how that goes. But what I love about this announcement is that it looks like Microsoft and all the various partners therein, it looks like they're actually going to really provide strong competition for the first time in a long time, at least in some areas, in the hardware areas. And to attack the MacBook Air with what looks like a pretty strong attack, I think that's fantastic. That's great for the industry.

53:11That's how we get really good change coming. That's how we get really good improvements. That's how we get 16 gigs of freaking RAM. That's how we get everything getting better for the customers. It happens when Apple is forced not to be complacent, when there's actually a real competition. And this will be a theme, I think, throughout the next few years. I suspect, granted, again, we have yet to see what Apple has in response to the recent AI mania. I suspect whatever they unveil at WWDC is going to underwhelm most of us in that area. I think they're going to be way behind. I think they're going to take a very, very conservative approach to any kind of quote AI based features.

53:54And I bet the companies that were there earlier and have invested more heavily in it, basically Google and Microsoft especially, I bet Google and Microsoft are going to be way ahead of Apple in AI based features for a long time, possibly for like a decade. I think this is a direct assault on Apple's core businesses, even the iPhone. And I think that's fantastic. I think Apple needs that more than anything, because, you know, I have not kept quiet that I really do think there's a lot more parallels between Tim Cook and Steve Ballmer than most Apple fans are willing to admit. Steve Ballmer did not make Microsoft unsuccessful.

54:33He made Microsoft miss the next big thing. I think that's substantially at risk here with Apple. I think Apple may have missed slash be missing a lot of new tech around these new AI techniques and models that their competition is investing very heavily into and developing very quickly. They're iterating quickly. They're turning things around quickly. a lot of it still yes it's vaporware a lot of it still is not as good in practice as it demos but there's a lot of value there that apple is so far not capturing again we it remains to be seen what will happen what will they show us in a few weeks and how will that stage out the rest of the year into various products and releases we'll find out uh but i have a i just i i have a feeling the most likely outcome of all that is they're way behind and dipping their toe in very conservatively while their competitors are pushing really hard.

55:26And that's a threat to the iPhone. That's a big deal if that's the case. So I think this is going to be a really exciting time, not because I want Apple to lose, but because they're going to, I think, have really strong competition, stronger than they've had in a long time. And they're going to start seeing actual disruption in their core product lines because their competitors are going to be doing substantial things that either have matched areas that Apple's had a lead in for a while, like some of this hardware from Microsoft and Qualcomm and everything, or their competitors are going to be doing things that Apple just can't keep up with in the areas of AI and AI-based features.

56:08I think this is going to be a really exciting time for computers and for Apple fans, because we're going to start actually getting punched here and there. We're going to start losing some things. And that's going to make Apple wake up in some areas that they need to be woken up in and actually get them to make some really good stuff again in a lot of these complacent areas. Yep. So as we continue, Ars Technica writes that right now, the requirement of 16 gigs RAM, 256 gig hard drive, and NPU capable of 40 trillion operations per second, or 40 tops, that can only be met by a single chip in the entire Windows PC ecosystem.

56:45The Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite. God, I'm fumbling all over my mouth here because these are so terrible. Oh, they're terrible names. I'm just like M4. Right. Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite and X Plus, which I'm assuming are Xs. Maybe they're 10s. Who even knows? But those are the only chips that are capable of doing it. And I think that basically only one of these two is out today or something along those lines no they're both i think they're both available so so this qualcomm snapdragon things we've been hearing about this chip for a while now for like months now people are saying this is going to be the m first it was going to be the m2 killer then it was going to be the m3 killer now it's the m4 killer because apple keeps releasing new chips um this is uh from qualcomm uh apple's friendly neighborhood supplier of cell modems and other things that apple wants to replace in its hardware um qualcomm bought nuvia in 2021 for 1.4 billion dollars nuvia was a startup making arm chips i think they were making like arm server chips nuvia was started by a bunch of apple silicon people that left apple and formed their own company to make arm chips that apple was interested in making so qualcomm essentially bought a bunch of the people who helped apple make all of its the m series chips and the a series chips or whatever that was a wise move because qualcomm's arm socs were not as good as apple's for many many years and this seems to be the first fruit of the nuvia acquisition uh which is an arm chip that is in the conversation with apple's arm chips and it's the snapdragon x elite and x plus which is not great naming um the plus is has a 10 core cpu and goes up to 3.4 gigahertz and the elite has a 12 core cpu that clocks higher it goes up to 3.8 with a quote dual core boost to 4.2 gigahertz and they both have 136 gigabits per second memory bandwidth the m4 remember from past show the m4 just broke the 100 gigabytes per second barrier because the m1 m2 and m3 were all 100 gigabytes per second m4 is 120 gigabytes per second the snapdragon x chip is 136 gigabytes per second so spec wise clockwise these are a little bit slower than the m4 as well um but these if you look at these chips and you're like okay well just based on this part of the specs i can see how this potentially could be in the conversation with apple stuff now when when the rumors were going for the snapdragon x the the main ding against these chips and the rumors was okay so the the specs are comparable to an m2 or better than an m2 comparable to an m3 and now maybe within shouting distance of an m4 but we don't know how much power they take that was the kind of the the ding on the intel chips before the arm ones you could get intel laptops that had cpus that could match or beat the cpus and apple's laptops but they use so much more power and their battery life was awful and some of them even like when they weren't plugged in they would clock themselves down and get even worse performance so it was like okay we can't just look at whether you can beat a mac in performance if your battery life is half as long nobody wants your laptop so that was always the ding in the rumors against the snapdragon x things oh they're probably going to be comparable but i bet they're going to get way worse battery life but this this presentation spent a long time trying to say that that's not the case that these laptops are not only you know macbook air caliber performance which is so weird that they're like judging against the macbook air which is not Apple's most performant like laptop.

1:00:26Well, it's their top seller. It's probably Microsoft's top competition for anything in this price range. Right, but like if you're doing it, like you would think what you'd be doing if you're competing against the MacBook Air is just showing like battery life things or whatever, but they want to show that it has the speed. It's, you know, and it's a little bit like, so obviously the MacBook Air only has the M3. Apple rolled out the M4, but it's not in a MacBook Air yet. So this is the time to strike because when the M4 MacBook Air is out, maybe the comparisons won't be as favorable because the M4 looks pretty darn good.

1:00:50But anyway, that's what they were comparing against. Now, the one thing they do have going for them is these are PCs, which you would presume they're going to be less expensive with better specs than Apple stuff. Now, Microsoft's PCs, because Microsoft does make hardware, Microsoft's PCs historically have not actually been super cheap, right? You could always get cheaper models with similar specs from other PC makers. Microsoft, from the beginning with its whole, you know, self-branded Surface line of Microsoft PCs, has been trying to be the Apple of PC hardware, right down to their hardware very often looking a lot like Apple hardware.

1:01:29And so they have a new laptop. They call the Surface Laptop 7th Edition. At least they didn't call it 7th generation. And so there's been a lot of Surface laptops before. but this is the good surface laptop because it comes with this arm processor that is potentially you know m3 or m4 class so looking at the pricing just at a broad level because remember this starts at 16 gigs so what i wanted to see was okay it starts 16 gigs 0 you know you can't the base macbook air doesn't start at 16 gigs but you can get it up to that i think so what are the what are the price comparison looks like so the base model 13 inch surface laptop with 16 gigs of ram and 256 gigs of ssd is a thousand dollars uh you cannot buy a macbook air with 16 gigs of ram for a thousand dollars you haven't been able to ever uh and it's a shame because that extra eight gigs of ram is not that big a deal if you want a macbook air with that i think you have to pay an additional three hundred dollars which doesn't sound like a lot extra but But in a$1 ,000 computer, that's like a third of the price you just added to go from 8 gigs of RAM to 16 gig.

1:02:33And your SSD is still tiny. So it doesn't seem like, oh, look, they're in the same ballpark. $300,$300 is nothing. It's a big bump on a$1 ,000 computer. If you want to go 16, 5, 12, that's$1 ,400 on the surface. Oh, it looks like Microsoft has learned something about SSD pricing from Apple. Because adding 256 gigs of SSD space does not cost$400. but in Microsoft and Apple and it does and so now the MacBook Air is only$100 more expensive at$1 ,500 if you go 16 gig one terabyte again there's only$100 price difference between the MacBook Air and the Surface the MacBook Air obviously being$100 more expensive and if you go 32 gig one terabyte the MacBook Air is actually cheaper but you can't get the MacBook Air with 32 you can only get it with 24 so it's$100 less expensive so pricing wise they are similar to macbook air that's their competition they undercut it significantly at the low end like to be able to get for a thousand dollars a machine with 16 gigs of ram that's the way the world should be and it's only not that way because of apple's stubbornness about getting off eight gigs but all the rest of the prices look like all right i see what you're you're pricing this at you're pricing this like a macbook air all the other makers who make these because i think there's a whole bunch of pc makers to do presumably will undercut them but the microsoft ones want to be the good ones again I think this is fantastic competition.

1:03:55Finally, this is great. I mean, the real, I think the problem here, or the challenge here that Microsoft is going to have, which I think we'll get to in a moment, is Microsoft is clearly trying to sell this to MacBook Air customers. And I think they will do a pretty good job of giving Apple a run for their money for certain target audiences. The question is, Microsoft has tried before to sell good next-generation ARM hardware, but Microsoft's customers didn't want it. Their customers wanted something that was what we always buy and cheap and easy and works with everything. Because it turns out that not every customer base is the same and wants the same things and has the same priorities.

1:04:42Microsoft here is making a product line that looks like it will actually be pretty competitive with Apple customers. But whether they can get their customers to buy it is a very different story. Well, their customers just want to be able to run their apps. And I think that's the story they're telling them here. Because I don't think obviously the pricing is out of whack in this. I think people who like Windows PCs, like for example, the corporate world. A lot of Windows PCs get sold into the corporate world. All those people have had to endure now, what, three years? of going to meetings with their mac using uh employee you know co-workers and seeing just how much better battery life the mac users get and how much nicer their laptops are but they don't want a mac they want a pc they just want it to be nice and but they they don't want it so okay well we can get you one of these windows rt laptops they're like oh that's they're slow and they're worse they're they're slow the battery life isn't even that good and they have compatibility problems and so microsoft i think is talking to those people and saying it's now safe for you to buy a windows laptop that's good like the macbook air and it will run all your stuff that is the thing that needs to get them over it's not so much the pricing because again there are cheaper brands to buy from than this it's it's the safety of saying this will just work just like your windows laptop that you have now there's no excuses we have to make no compromise it's not well it's you know it gets good battery life but it's you know half is slow but hey battery life's like no it's faster it's it's like the m1 pitch it's faster it runs all your old software and the battery life is amazing it's an easy sell and you know you're right that microsoft is selling to the people who are buying the high end of that but dell is gonna sell pcs with similar specs at the low end of that they're uglier cheaper but you know more appealing to people so i think they have i don't think they're trying to like you know let's poach all the mac users or whatever i think they're just finally trying to give all the windows users who have been suffering with inferior your laptop since the introduction of the m1 to say now you can now you're free now you can have a good laptop again don't even tell like don't even tell them there's an arm cpu in there they won't even need to know it just it just runs all your stuff and you don't need to know about all you know is my battery life is better and my performance is better it's the same pitch as the m1 was over x86 so let's talk compatibility because i i think that is the that's key here Because you're right that what everybody wants in the Windows world is we want to do things the way we've always done them.

1:07:05We want to run the software we've always run. We want to have it work with all the tools we already use, all the things we already know. We want it to integrate with all of our enterprise systems. We want it to run all of our enterprise software and have all our enterprise licenses transfer over to it. And we want it to be really cheap and easily dealt with in a fleet. That's what Microsoft's customers want. and so does this actually deliver that in in the compatibility uh realm you think yeah so their their claim is that it's twice as fast as their previous extremely bad emulation right that doesn't they name checked rosetta they they in the presentation they literally name check rosetta they said it's you know it's just as efficient as apple's rosetta like their their target is 100 what apple did with the m1 uh they've got software makers on board even better than apple did because microsoft actually knows how to talk to third parties where like the browser vendors have promised arm version of their stuff photoshop is there obviously office is there because microsoft knows how to port its own apps unlike apple like their compatibility story is good they put a claim in the presentation that was like i've seen it they use both 87 and 90 because i think they're just rounding uh then this is 87 microsoft believes 80 87 of the total app minutes spent on a copilot plus pc will be inside native apps so they're not saying that 80 of 87 of the apps will have been imported they're saying look the apps that people use every day 87 of their time they're going to be using a native app but as we know from the m1 that doesn't even matter if you have rosetta caliber emulation the apps that aren't native unless they're performance critical people won't even notice right so their claim and their demos essentially say this is an m1 situation most of the apps that you care about most of your day is going to be spent in a native app we made sure we put our apps and the ones that aren't native you won't even notice like that that's their pitch unlike the hardware side on the software side they can deliver on that both by porting their software because honestly lots of people use windows use microsoft software a lot of time and by getting third parties on board which they seem to have done a pretty good job of so you know we'll see what the market thinks about it and there are other wrinkles that we'll get to a little bit but that that's what makes this time different it's well two things one they have a good soc made by ex-apple people and two they actually have a compatibility story that appears to be Apple caliber.

1:09:18You know they're confident when they're literally name checking like Rosetta. They constantly said MacBook Air. They said Apple. They said Rosetta. You don't throw out those names. You don't invite those comparisons if you know you're going to look terrible. So they are at least confident that they have met that bar. Indeed. We should probably go back and talk a little bit about specifics. The Surface laptop is 13.8 inches. It is a 201 PPI screen at 120 hertz or now let's let's just stop there you know in the pc world they're not shy about giving you technology that is modern they don't say oh well this is the 13 inch low-end laptop so we're not going to give them 120 hertz screen that's a pro feature no they just give it to you because it's a part that they can buy and it doesn't actually cost that much more than the 60 hertz part so it has a slightly bigger screen than the macbook air slightly lower ppi but it's 120 hertz this is like a macbook air with promotion in apple parlance oh and by the way they're all touch screens of pencil support yeah of course they are every single one of them then there's the 15 inch which is also 201 ppi uh this is in comparison to the macbook air uh both of which are 224 uh points per inch or is it pixels or points in this context points uh okay there are two usbc ports which are usb4 and wouldn't you know it there's one usb a port which is usb 3.1 on all of these yeah it is interesting that they didn't i mean obviously the uh well the macbook air doesn't have thunderbolt right their usb on the macbook air as well no i thought they were thunderbolt it's thunderbolt everything's thunderbolt now everything everything after the first the macbook one everything everything after the 12 inch was real thunderbolt anyway thunderbolt is an interesting apple differentiator because i know this is the whole usb4 thing versus thunderbolt is not that big a deal but thunderbolt still seems to be a thing that only mac users really care about but anyway Microsoft does give you two ports plus that A port with USB 3.1 for the people who need it indeed there's a headphone jack they all support three external 4K monitors plus the laptop screen let me tell you of all the complaints I've heard about modern Apple laptops I think the only one I've heard with any regularity is what do you mean I can't run a second screen which I think that has not changed and now you can close the lid you want to run it just close the lid and so this and and again if you don't want to watch this presentation be assured that they weren't just doing this as like and apple users will know what this means they were calling out the macbook like three external 4k monitors plus the laptop screen this is because they know that this is a weakness of the macware we've talked about this for multiple generations of the macbook air is this the one where they're going to do you know they decided not to put the display drivers forward it actually is a hardware limitation This is how they've chose to apportion, you know, for power usage and all these reasons why Apple didn't do this.

1:12:09And Microsoft is capitalizing by saying we don't just support one external monitor, three 4K monitors plus the laptop screen at the same time. Indeed. There is Wi-Fi 7. There are touchscreens, as previously mentioned. It goes up to 600 nits with quote unquote HDR, has Dolby Vision IQ. There is no notch. They said that in the presentation. literally they said hey our camera is built into the you know the frame of the monitor no notch and why are they saying no notch because apple's laptops have notches they're calling out every single thing that is weird or bad or wrong about wi-fi 6 does it max have that no max don't have wi-fi 6 we just got a 7 rather they have we have 6e because apple is not you know has not always been on the cutting edge of these standards this has been true forever for pcs but now this This is like a PC worth paying attention to.

1:13:00And it's got all that PC stuff. And the PC stuff is, hey, whatever the latest standard is for the stuff, even on the lowest end laptop, of course it's got Wi-Fi 7 because that's the current version of Wi-Fi. And we're a PC and PCs have the newest stuff. And then when you buy a new PC, the screen which they claim is HDR, I'm like, really? They put an HDR screen in this? No, it's 600 nits. Don't get too excited about the HDR. It's HDR in the same way as the Mac Studio's display is HDR. 600 nits is not HDR. are and by the way double vision iq is the thing where i mean again dolby vision with 600 nits max anyway double vision iq is a thing where it just does ambient light sensing to adjust the thing but honestly this is not a very bright screen but it is 120 hertz it is the dpi is ppi is a little low 201 versus 224 the resolution is a little bit lower than the macbook air it's 2300 instead of 2500 across right uh so this is kind of like a the pixels are a little chunkier the screen is a little bit bigger but as marco said it's a touch screen it has pen support 600 nits is not bad and no notch and how did they do it with no notch they just made the bezel a little bit thicker it's not that much thicker look at it it's fine apple could have done this but they didn't so yeah this next this next one kills me there's a micro sdxc card reader but only on the 15 inch look at that you can put an sd card slot on the macbook air you believe that apple has that ever been done before oh it has been done before on the macbook air on the i believe the didn't the 11 inch have it i know that i know the 13 inch did i think the 11 might have had and again we celebrated when the sd card came to the macbook pro line and at the time i said you know there is like you could put this on the macbook air but like we're just so happy to have it on the macbook pro thank you apple but here is competitive pressure hey in a macbook air class machine can you fit an sd card slot yeah you can apple's done it before they can do it again microsoft just did only on the 15 inch there is a fan and there's a daring firewall post about this uh there's a fan which you know that's fine i don't i'm not near as bothered by this as i think you two are but it is there yeah this is so we'll we'll start getting into this a little bit now like the rumor of the snapdragon x thing was like okay it'll be competitive but it'll use more power it's like oh fans you know like that there's a different power class of ship like the the direct comparison really should be with the base macbook pro and not the macbook air not the fanless macbook air uh but as we'll see there's some conflicting info like you know microsoft is clearly targeting the macbook air they're saying this is the macbook air class machine it does have a fan and the macbook air doesn't so that's leaning us a little bit in the direction of maybe this is using a little bit more power than the macbook air is soc and that's that's what led me to say okay well if this thing really is using more power let's look at the battery size let's look at the battery capacity because the claims they make about the battery life are macbook air caliber but maybe it just has a bigger battery like maybe this is a more power hungry soc they put a bigger battery in it and that's how it can match the macbook air in uh in battery life but the battery sizes are almost exactly macbook air so in the 13 inch it's 54 watt hours and the macbook air is 52.6 in the 15 inch it's 66 watt hours and the macbook air is 66.5 like these batteries it's like when car manufacturers produce a car that competes with some other company's car in the same sort of model category and you look at the specs and you're like wow the wheelbase is one inch different the rear seat room is like one inch like it's so clear that they target each other and they just match each other's specs exactly because they don't want to they don't want to be rejected in the market because they fall down in one category so just what you know whatever the toyota camry does we're going to do because we're making you know our accord camry whatever like you look at these specs and you're like this is not near the airline limit of like 100 watt hours so it's not like they all ended up at 100 because they were at the limit these specs like they're targeting the macbook air they put the same size battery as the macbook air so that is once again arguing towards that this soc might be macbook air caliber in terms of power efficiency yeah this is this is very promising for competition again i'm i'm so excited about this i like i i really hope that Windows customers actually start making this transition for lots of reasons.

1:17:11It's better for so many reasons that they do this. And number one for me is this is going to be a really exciting competition. Indeed. So continuing on, I don't even know what the source of this is anymore. I think it was The Verge. For years, the MacBook Air has been able to smoke ARM-powered PC chips and Intel-based ones too, except this time around the Surface pulled ahead on the first test. Then it won another test, and another after that. The results of these tests are why Microsoft believes it's now in a position to conquer the laptop market. So here we go. Microsoft's claims for the Snapdragon 10 or X Elite.

1:17:45See, it's actually X, I think, but I just said 10. It's Snapdragon X Elite. Up to 23 % faster in peak multi-threaded performance and up to 58 % faster in sustained multi-threaded performance. The second spec you read, you know what that spec says? Our laptops have a fan. that's the translation of that thing why is it 50 faster and sustained multi-threaded because the macbook air thermal throttles this is the our laptop has a fan spec because the 23 faster we'll get to that in a little bit like it has more cores than the m3 so okay well like i get it it's you know that's not that's not much of a bragging right has more cores it's using more power during that time i'm sure right 58 faster and sustained multi-threaded what does that mean it just means we have a fan they they blow air on it so it doesn't throttle and that's why it's crushing the macbook air and which is again i don't blame the macbook air for that i love that it's fanless apple has other computers with fans that are better competition for this but that is them literally calling out their fan in a in a specific slide so getting numbers on these things i was trying to look up like the geekbench they put some geekbench numbers up in their presentation it's hard to find geekbench numbers for the m4 there's tons of tons of entries like what do you mean it's hard there's tons of entries but they vary so much so i'm like well what is like is one of these things sitting on top of a block of ice that's cooling it are these real numbers so i'm you know this the same thing with the snapdragon thing we just have preliminary numbers from microsoft people don't have these in their hands so take all this with a tiny grain of salt but here's what the geekbench things look like so strap snapdragon x elite this is a 12 core cpu it's 2700 uh single 14 000 multi right the m3 is an eight core cpu so the fact that it's oh we get 23 faster and multi-threaded well you got a lot more cores there so that's not surprising and again the m4 isn't out in the macbook area yet so this is this is the time to pounce with your comparison but the m3 still beats it in single core 3100 compared to 2700 and multi-core it's 11 000 versus 14 000 the m4 ish modified by this isn't an ipad yada yada yada the m4 just crushes all of this in single core we talked about this before last last show i think we said it was like 3700 single core which would be the champ for any mac ever now the numbers are in the 4000s if you look at geekbench 4000 single core versus 2700 the m4 is smushing the snapdragon x elite but again the m4 is not in the macbook air so fair comparison and multi-core the m4 is a 10 core soc the cpu part of it 10 core versus 12 core snapdragon x elite it's basically matching it so i think the snapdragon x elite is probably m3 performance caliber not as good in single core a little bit better in multi-core it's got it's got to end up using more power than the m3 because it's got more cores so when you crank up all those 12 cores it's going to use more than the 8 core uh but the m4 essentially bests it with two fewer cores in multi-core and crushes it in single core so i think apple is not like oh they've made the soc that's going to crush us but what they have done is they've made a competitive soc it is competitive it's it's specs its performance look good its power envelope if if you are to believe microsoft's battery life claims its power envelope is also competitive i think when they test this they're going to find that the apple one still best it in battery life because the batteries are the same size and it's clear that the m3 uses less power if only because it's eight core versus 12 core so watch for the benchmarks when people get these in their hands.

1:21:23But I think essentially that the rumors about the Snapdragon X were true, that it has comparable performance, but it uses a little bit more power. I think that the tests are going to bear that out. And because these laptops don't have bigger batteries, they're going to get slightly worse battery life than the MacBook Air. But on the other hand, they will beat them in multi-core because they have a fan and won't thermothrottle. Indeed. All right, we already talked about compatibility. Then third-party support. Many of the biggest apps now natively support arm chips photoshop dropbox zoom spotify and other top entertainment apps like prime and hulu are all native arm 64 apps now google and many other browser makers are moving to arm 64 native version of chrome launched recently followed by opera just last week then also firefox vivaldi brave and microsoft edge are all arm 64 native overall microsoft believes and we talked about this a minute ago that 87 percent of total app minutes spent on these Copilot Plus PCs will be inside native apps.

1:22:20And then we also should mention that there's a Microsoft approved, it's not like sponsored by Microsoft, but it's a Microsoft approved website that tracks how Windows games specifically play on ARM. This is works on WOA.com. What is WOA? Windows on ARM? Windows on ARM. It's a terrible name. Works on Windows on ARM. But this is the website that I want to be keeping an eye on because one of the reasons I want ARM PCs, I want all those PC games to be ported to ARM. Now this is a tough sell. I understand that because lots of pc games are old they're never going to get ported you know whatever but like going forward i would love it if modern pc games were cross-compiled for x86 and arm and this website is tracking hey if you buy one of these arm uh pcs if you can check if if this game runs natively on arm and if it doesn't it might still run fine in emulation as many mac games did when apple made the transition but yeah it's not as if game makers are entirely ignoring arm we'll see how that goes as time goes on.

1:23:17Indeed. And then AI. These Copilot Plus PCs are equipped with a neural processing unit from Qualcomm that hits 45 trillion operations per second of compute for AI tasks. That results in more AI task operations per watt than a MacBook Air M3 and NVIDIA's RTX 4060. The M4 is 38 tops. M3 is 18 tops. We already discussed. But again, the 8 versus 16-bit is tops is a crappy number. Tops is a crappy way to talk about these things. Indeed. But here we are. They did a few demonstrations. They did a demo of a four-person, I don't know if it was literally Zoom, it probably was Teams, but a four-person chat or a conference, if you will, a meeting.

1:23:58And everyone was speaking a different language and it was translating the, it was subtitling basically live as they were talking. It was very impressive. and then they also did a draw along image generation thing where a woman drew like uh some mountains and some flowers and you could crank how creative the ai got like did it stick with basically what she drew or did it get totally off the wall and they were the draw along thing i mean i'm not an artist that was like yeah whatever but the multi-language live translation that was pretty slick yeah so again these things are called co-pilot plus pcs and these are the features they demonstrate it uh there are obviously way more there's way more things that copilot does and there's some other demos but they were leaning heavily on like the live translation and the draw along stuff it went in microsoft build they talked about this more but the the the pitch for these what they've done with uh windows to add ai to it is that there there's there's an api there's libraries they can use or whatever but essentially apple or i keep saying apple what microsoft said was that they are running 40 different ai models within windows to provide all these services it's not just like one large language model that they're running locally it's not like they send all requests out to open ai they're running 40 different models locally plus also sending stuff out to presumably open ai things and there's like there's a you know there's a software story for application developers to do this type of stuff this is kind of this this kind of sets the bar for apple because they're adding features to windows that if you want to make an application on windows and you want to leverage some of these features that are available to you and then windows itself has these things woven throughout it where it's you know you've seen so many ai branded things where it's like in some random application there's a text box where you can send a string and we'll send the chat gpt and tell you what it sent back or send it to an image generator and tell you what it sent back there was even that whole thing with like the logitech mouse driver is adding oh and this feature in the mouse driver click the mouse button and we'll open a text box wherever your cursor is and you can send a message to chat gpt that is so sort of bolt on not understanding what the value might be microsoft is trying to say here are the things you could do that you couldn't do before now any audio that plays anywhere on the system because again they make windows so they can make this happen any audio anywhere on the system in any app you can just say uh turn on live translation so it subtitles this and it doesn't do every language i think it translates everything to english it supports like 40 languages blah blah but like that's an os level feature that apps don't have to like add support for or whatever it just exists on the system that's the type of thing that we were hoping that we hope apple will do with with its rolling ai out and it's not just like oh we just have one model and we run everything through it and it does what it does they have many models working in tandem same thing with a draw along thing you have to give it a prompt and then you start drawing and it copies it and this is questionable usefulness that's a little bit more like let's send something to an image generation but there again there are apis for that so i'm sure i build they had way more story on the ai angle but for laptops that are again branded as ai pcs the part that at least everyone on this show is most excited about has nothing to do with the ai and everything to do with these look like they're good laptops finally after you know since the m1 came out pc laptops have been not good compared to everything that apple makes and now these this line of laptops appear to be good yeah they really do look impressive i'm excited about both aspects though like you know when i look at ai features of various platforms so far you know google had their their vaporware keynote where they demoed a whole bunch of stuff that you can't use um i'm sure apple's gonna give us a similarly vapory keynote in a couple of weeks.

1:27:42But Apple will ship the stuff that it shows probably. Maybe in spring. I have a feeling a lot of Apple's announcements are probably going to be like later this year and coming next year. You know, like a lot of that, you know. But I have not seen a ton of, quote, AI features that actually hold up in practice and reality that are really compelling. But I have seen some. And for every person, it's only going to take like, you know, one or two of those really killer features before they're like, oh, I have to have that. I will buy new hardware or possibly even change platforms just to get that one thing that is very high value to me.

1:28:19And that's why I really hope Apple's taking this seriously because this is going to have a lot of disruption. It already is doing some level of disruption and it's only going to get more so as the platforms integrate this because here's what's going to happen. Google is going to go all in on LLM-based and generative-based features in Android, system-wide. Microsoft is going all in on AI things in Windows, system-wide. Apple is going to face a lot of pressure to do that same thing in their OSs because the system integration is where so much of this value can get unlocked. There's a lot of amazing functionality that people will not only really enjoy and will very highly value, but they'll come to expect it.

1:29:10Imagine if you had a phone today, if you wanted to make a phone platform today that didn't have a basic voice assistant functionality. Every platform has had voice assistants now for so long. People take it for granted. People assume, of course, I can talk to my phone and it'll try to make sense of what I said and do something. That same expectation is going to arise in phone and PC operating systems, whether Apple makes it there or not with theirs. and if they don't start matching some of those features in compelling ways, they're going to fall behind and they're going to start losing people and they're going to have a hard time attracting new people.

1:29:50That's why this is disruptive, even though I think we can all look at a lot of these features that are out there today and say, yeah, that kind of sucks or that thing they did, that failed or that gave them a wrong answer. Yeah, that's going to happen. That's going to keep happening. But not everything fails and not everything sucks and not everything is wrong. Some of those things, everyone is throwing so much spaghetti at the wall right now because there is so much value to be had. And yeah, most of it's not going to turn into anything. Most of it's going to flop. Most of it is going to suck or fail or be better done with simpler tools.

1:30:22But there are going to be some of those things that stick. It's going to happen. It's already starting to happen. So to me, what is exciting is seeing Google and Microsoft go straight for OS integration. Go right for the juggler. Go right, like, make Apple do this at OS level. Make Apple integrate all this good stuff into Siri. The crown jewel is like, get this into Siri. Whether Apple is doing that, I think, remains a huge open question. I don't think anybody has any solid rumors or intel either direction on that. We've only heard, like, little bits and pieces, like, oh, they might be improving it.

1:30:59There is. We'll get to it in overtime. Oh, good. Okay. because like I like that to me is like this all this all this stuff wants to be os level integrated and on in the phone especially it all wants to be integrated into the system voice assistant and it's siri is just dying for this and and i hope apple knows that and is and has already started taking lots of action in that direction but until then we're going to see some really exciting stuff for microsoft and google and that's awesome like as apple fans again that's great for us not only because they're going to do stuff that apple won't and can't for a long time uh but then that'll force apple to get better on their end that'll make for great stuff for everybody so again if you're looking at this ai stuff and saying ah nobody needs any of that trust me that's going to be a short-sighted view this is not cryptocurrency this is real this actually has real value to more people it's is similarly inefficient in terms of energy resource usage, which we should get to.

1:31:55But there is real value here that is being created, whether you're on this train or not. So just be ready for it, and I hope Apple is. I think, I mean, obviously we don't know what Apple is going to put out because WDC hasn't come yet, but I think the rumored Apple approach here and what I expect them to do is a comfortable position for Apple, because as you noted, Google and Microsoft are throwing everything against the wall. I think the quote-unquote AI features that will be compelling, that will stick that will become the new normal are essentially the ones that if you showed them to somebody they would have no idea that it's ai branded at all so to give an example that essentially everybody has now background removal in photos apple's had that on the last two versions of its os right that's touted as an ai feature powered by neural engine blah blah blah but from a practical perspective people using it don't have to know or care anything about ai they just know and it's you know this will be differentiated for these copilot plus bcs i'm just used to the idea that anytime I see an image, I can tear the person off of the background.

1:32:56That just becomes a feature that I expect to exist. And if somebody buys a Copilot Plus PC and they've never used this ability before, and now they have the ability to easily separate people from the background or remove objects from the images or just some other things that people have demoed, like Adobe's new Lightroom has, you know, everyone has that now. And yeah, they brand it with AI or whatever, but users are just like, oh, this is now a thing I can do with my computer. So if you have a Copilot Plus PC and you're used to anytime system-wide that you see an image, you can pull the person off the background and then you try to use your co-workers intel powered windows laptop that they bought at the same time you got the copilot plus pc and you literally can't do that because i believe microsoft is gating some of these features apple style on the presence of the npu like oh we could do it with the intel things and it would be slower and yada yada but let's artificially semi not really artificially gate this on the npu you're going to be like well your pc is broken it's going to feel like i do on my intel when there's some feature that Intel Mac, when there's a feature that comes out that's only available on Apple Silicon Macs, you know what I mean?

1:33:57Some of it's legit, some of it's not legit, but it's a way to get people to say like, I want a PC that can do that because they just expect it to be done. The multi-language translation is that AI large line. You don't need to know how that's implemented. You just know, oh, in the new version of Windows, anywhere there's audio, I can see it subtitled in any app with no support from it. That doesn't look like an AI feature. That's not you drawing a picture and ai completing it that's not used chatting with a large language model like it's your friend that is just a feature of the operating system and you don't have to know that they're using a large language model or if they're doing it on device or if they're sending it like you don't have to know any of that it just becomes like the status quo like kind of how we all you know give apples examples from apple's operating system oh now anywhere there's text in an image on a mac you can pull it out because that's a feature apple added what did they use to implement that we don't care you just eventually get used to the idea that in the system-wide image viewer if there's text in an image you can select it and it will try to ocr it right you know and there have been third-party products that before but you just get used to that being a feature i think that's where apple is going to concentrate the my big question is and we'll get to again maybe in overtime is what about the things that clearly are ai where you draw you describe a picture and it draws it for you you're chatting with the chatbot or whatever what is the utility of those will apple feel like it has to compete in that area but like to your point marco about these things being useful these are just going to be features of an operating system that we just assume that every mac and pc can do and it's already happening we just don't notice because the branding isn't as in your face but under the covers a lot of these translation you know for example i think their translation is using lm to do translation and the background image processing is using the ai powered image whatever stuff like those are the features that i think will stick i have a lot of questions about the you know chat gpt type things even though they get all the press like oh that's what ai means that's not the most slam dunk sure thing ai powered features and microsoft and google probably they're just gonna do them all and you know the bad ones will fade away and the good ones will stick apple thus far has only been doing the features that are clearly useful and will stick like the ones they've already implemented that i mentioned already they called them ML, but like the branding wasn't that big of a deal.

1:36:15But the bottom is they're useful features that are maxed that we all just get used to existing. And if they went away, we would be sad about them. And there is some, you know, quote unquote, AI ML tech behind them. So it's legit. So I think that's what Apple is going to end up doing is just do the features that stick and let everyone else throw the spaghetti at the wall. And they'll just pay attention to what actually does stick. Well, and again, like you can look all over the system. You can see so many features that are already there now, but that could be done better with an LLM-based approach.

1:36:45That's what we said when we were talking about the AI sauce. There are as many things that Apple's trying to do, not well. And look, they already mentioned last summer in the We Won't Say AI WWDC keynote, where they mentioned things like they're using a transformer-based autocorrect for the keyboard and some of the dictation features and stuff like that. Yeah, autocorrect for the keyboard. that is a great application for LLM based algorithms. Dictation of recognizing what you're saying just through the dictation microphone thing on the keyboard. Again huge opportunity there which some of which are already doing for improvements using modern AI techniques and modern AI models.

1:37:24Translation right. Apple has a translation API right that could be better use LLM. Translation is huge like that's a massive you know possible application there and then again like think Think of Siri. Like, even if all they do with the LLMs is make Siri... Make Siri do what it's already supposed to do. Yeah, make Siri have like an LLM front end maybe that like have... And forgive me, I'm not an LLM expert yet. I swear I'm going to get to it one of these days. But like, suppose they can have a model in front. First of all, you know, there's going to be some modern AI techniques involved in figuring out what you say.

1:37:59But Siri is actually pretty good at figuring out what you say a lot of the time. It's what it does with it that is oftentimes the problem. Well, what if you can use a model to help parse what you say and choose what other back-end service or model should answer this question that you said? And there's opportunities there. What if they can – if you ask it a factual question and right now they just say, I found these results on the web. You can view them on your iPhone or whatever. Like, what if in the background it says one moment and it actually fetches those three web pages that it found and it uses AI summarization to roughly try to tell you the answer to your question via voice like you asked it for?

1:38:36Like, there are so many opportunities there where existing features, things like transcribing the contents of voicemails, like basic stuff that we have already in the system that could be made better here. And then, of course, as we talked about about a month ago, the idea of replacing a lot of the like Siri intent shortcuts kind of API surface with let the app just say what this thing does and have Siri be able to see that. and then if somebody asks, hey, give me a list of the chapters of the current podcast in Overcast, without ever having created a shortcut to do that, it can look and see, okay, Overcast Venns, this action, this action, and this action.

1:39:17This one says get list of chapters. To be able to map that and then give a response without ever having created a shortcut or set anything up, there is so much opportunity for things like that that are not anything like generate me an image that won't offend anybody. Or ask me an arbitrary question that will answer you with some weird chat thing. Right. Or write me a paper for my fifth grade homework. There's so many opportunities for modern AI-based approaches and models to make existing and only slightly advanced features better on the operating system that already exists that we use all the time.

1:39:55And again, as John was saying a few minutes ago, you don't even think of that as AI. you think of it as I'm typing on my phone or I'm dictating to my phone or my phone is telling me what this voicemail message said or whatever like that you think of that or you think I just asked Siri a thing and it worked somehow which is you know a rare a rare thing sometimes uh you don't think you don't care if that's AI you just want this to work better and every year or every few years you know Apple does usually like revamp some of these systems hey we found a new ML based approach to you know to do this better or whatever this is just the next step of that this is a big step this has really really big gains when used well and that's what we're hoping apple's going to do is use this well and i don't care if they don't match every feature that everyone else is trying that's not their style they never have they never will i just want them to match the good ones or maybe get there before you know maybe be first to some of the good ones uh and that's the part like i really hope they're not sleeping on this because they there is so much opportunity for the stuff they've already decided is important to them to just get better or work more reliably that's what i want at least to start and then we can start getting more exciting stuff down the road one uh brief little bit of hardware before we move on to this final thing i know we're running along here um as we said a bunch of a bunch of pc makers are making copilot plus pcs which is good uh they also announced the new surface pro which is their name for their sort of convertible tablet thing it's like an ipad but with a keyboard or whatever it's got an oled it's 13 inch it's 267 ppi which is close to the ipad pro's 264 ppi the screen is a little bit higher res it's got two usbc ports on an ipad on a tablet are you allowed to do that microsoft did it wi-fi 7 are you allowed to do that on an ipad yes you are bluetooth 5.4 ipad produce has 5.3 because this is a pc it has the latest version of everything detachable keyboard with trackpad integrated haptic pen let me know if this sounds familiar to you uh they use carbon fiber in their keyboard they have something they call a bold key set which makes the text on the keycaps bolder so they're easier to see imagine that apple does everything fine and low contrast because it looks beautiful and elegant and unlike the software where you can turn on increased contrast you can't turn that on the hardware microsoft will turn it on the hardware for you by putting bold on the key sets kudos to microsoft very quickly i maybe this has been a thing for a while and i just didn't realize it but i was not aware of the detachable part of the detachable keyboard for their tablets and that is very slick so because they believe in kickstands which i'm not a big kickstand person like i don't love that but here's the advantage of it you can stand up the quote-unquote ipad the surface pro on its own and then you can have the keyboard somewhere that's more ergonomic and or convenient convenient and it has a little like tray in it for the pencil or whatever they call their stylus imagine that yeah they put their their pencil is flat which is not a great idea but the advantage is hey where am i supposed to put the pencil instead of magnetically connecting the pencil to the side of their tablet they have a little little slot for it in the detachable keyboard i think this is not the right choice because i think i'd rather have a round pencil while drawing rather than you know and stow it somewhere else rather than because i feel like you spend more of your time drawing with if you actually use the pencil the drawing time is the important time not the storage time as this pencil seems optimized for storage but it is convenient especially if you don't plan on using the pencil a lot that there is a place to put it where it is securely kept and this is the keyboard that marco wanted it just unplugs it doesn't have a weird flappy thing around the back why because this case you said it doesn't need to hold up the ipad doesn't need to hold up the tablet part the tablet the tablet part holds itself up with the kickstand which i'm also not a big kickstand fan but this is the advantage the kickstand lets the tablet part stand on its own and the keyboard can just detach and attach very easily it even has a little foldable triangle thing to prop up the keyboard right um so and and you may be wondering what operating system does this thing run it just runs windows because windows works with touch windows works with the pen this can just be your laptop and it can be both a tablet and a laptop because it has a touchscreen and it runs a pcos and everything like it can just be your one thing as long as that one thing is windows this yeah this is not like a separate product from like oh you said the surface laptop but the surface pro must run a different os that's more limited no it just runs windows yeah and this is this has been microsoft's thing since forever since like windows 8 or whatever like their whole idea is hey we have an os that works with touch it works with this works you know they don't have a separate they don't have a separate mobile operating system for phones they used to poor microsoft they don't have a phone operating system and their tablet operating system is just windows right so this is a convert think of it as a convertible mac laptop with a 13 inch oled screen it's not a dual is it a delay i don't know i didn't see the specs i don't think i don't think it's a dual layer but anyway just fyi like in the pc world they make different and you know and this runs a snapdragon you know the whole nine yards that we were talking about but like they have an ipad pro competitor as well and it is pretty strong hardware-wise.

1:44:47What I like about Microsoft's hardware is that Apple, for a lot of Apple's designs, they're very opinionated, of course, and a lot of that comes with the priority of design purity over practicality. We've talked a lot about this before. It was much worse, I think, in the end of the Johnny Ive era, but a lot of times the design purity for Apple is more important and they are willing to sacrifice usefulness in order to achieve it if necessary. And so examples of that are like getting rid of old ports because they just feel dirty or they can't make it quite as thin with the old port or whatever. The notch is a huge compromise in that way because they don't want the top of the screen bezel to be thicker than the side bezels.

1:45:36Like all these new Microsoft displays. Asymmetry makes Johnny Ive cry. Right. All these new Microsoft displays that have no notch, it's because the top bezel is thicker than the side bezels. Like they used to be on Apple laptops. Right. Like they spent everything for that reason, to fit a webcam. So Microsoft is willing to say, you know what? We will sacrifice the visual design purity to give our customers what they want. Like the bolt keycaps. Right. Like Microsoft is willing to do that. Like Apple will not sacrifice design purity or say economics in a lot of cases that really would benefit their customers.

1:46:13but Apple said, no, we don't want to make that, so we just won't. Whereas Microsoft is willing to let customers drive the design a little more. And sometimes that's bad, and sometimes that's good. And again, I think that that forms the basis for great competition. If so many people are saying just over the last few weeks with the new iPad release, so many people are saying, hey, we would love if the iPad was pushed a little bit more towards the Mac in terms of certain capabilities or whatever else. Microsoft is saying, we'll give you both. Here, it's one thing that runs our full PCOS. You can do everything with this one thing.

1:46:48People want Apple to make touchscreen Macs. Microsoft's been making touchscreen PCs for, what, 12, 15 years at least? More than that. Microsoft is willing to, and the PC world in general, but I think Microsoft does a good job of it. They're willing to meet customer needs where they are. If a customer says, hey, we want this thing to do everything and be everything, and as a result it has to look just a little bit like the Homer Simpson car, Microsoft will say, fine, this is what you want. We will give you what you want. Or PC vendors, even if Microsoft not, right? Because they're not the only ones who make the hardware.

1:47:22Yeah, exactly. Although what you were saying about competition, though, you said this multiple times that you're so excited for competition. But you also just, what you just said now should sort of dampen your hopes. Thanks. Right. So like, I also agree that this is good competition. I hope it wakes Apple up and makes them do things that they otherwise wouldn't do, like with the RAM and stuff like that. But here's the thing. historically speaking back when both windows and the mac operating system were on x86 during that golden period when the you know performance uh battery life everything of the laptops were essentially comparable because they were all using the same intel chips right during that time apple removed so much stuff from their laptops and made them so bad and there was tons of pc competition that was exactly comparable power wise because they were literally using the same intel chips and that did not motivate apple to change like we're like oh if we get to a period where the pc laptops are competitive that'll make apple change its ways and do better with its laps like they were being crushed in terms of feature set like when they went to like the all usb all thunderbolt ports or whatever no sd card slot no hdmi or whatever you could buy a million pc laptops that had exactly the same performance that at all the ports you ever wanted that had higher resolution screens that had like faster versions of the same uh cpu that were cheaper that had more RAM, that had more SSDs.

1:48:40And it was just like apples to apples comparison. They're all on Intel. And that did not motivate Apple to change. And so I want to believe that they're going to see this and feel motivated to like, oh, we got to keep up with Microsoft here. But I've just lived through a period in which Apple did not feel compelled to compete. And in fact, continued to make its laptops worse and worse and more and more limited while the exactly comparable or better PC laptops were not so constrained. So I don't know. That was a different Apple. Johnny Ive was there at the time. Different regime, right? Before Apple's recommitment to the Mac, which we applaud before Apple Silicon.

1:49:17Like it's not, you know, I know today's Apple is different, but I'm not 100 % confident that Apple will see this and say, we need to keep up with the Joneses. If you know, we should rethink the base RAM on not that the M4 MacBook Air, but on the M5 MacBook Air. Let's think about 16 gigs. like are they going to do that because of these or were they going to do that anyway and it's you know like we'll see like they've never felt compelled to be like oh we gotta have wi-fi seven because pcs do no apple has never done that they're like oh you know we're always a little bit behind but it's fine right that is more of the apple way i hope these laptops and light a fire under their butt but again surface pro has existed for ages it's just now it's way better because of the snapdragon you know soc but convertible pcs with touchscreens and pens like all that's been this is not a new product and has that improved the ipad pro maybe maybe that's why the ipad pro has gotten better in the ways that it has but it almost seems like i mean from our sort of insular apple world perspective and maybe also from apple's insular perspective being apple that the only thing that seems to motivate apple to change are its own customers like i really do feel like the reason apple's laptops got better is because of the the sadness of apple's laptop customer you You know what I mean?

1:50:34Like it was because Apple customers were saying, Mac laptops used to be good, but now I'm unhappy with this one. And it doesn't matter what was going on in the PC laptop world almost. It's like the only thing that can change Apple are its own customers. The sadness of its own customers that saying we feel like the Mac has been abandoned. We think the laptop should have an HDMI port and an SD. I'm not saying like we on this podcast, but I'm saying like Apple's customers writ large. I think that's what has motivated Apple to come around on the Mac to make all the improvements that they have made to rededicate themselves to the Mac.

1:51:08And it wasn't the fact that the PC laptops had existed for years and years that were better in all the ways that Apple's laptops were bad during the Intel era. All right, before we go, we should bring up Microsoft Recall because this has been kind of a pet thing for the three of us over the last few months. John, what is Microsoft Recall? It's been longer than a few months. So you may be familiar with this feature because we've talked about it on this show many times. We talked about it, we called it Lifestream. which is a feature that i've wanted for years and then there was a feature for the mac called rewind that would form a similar function microsoft calls it recall uh if you heard our past shows about rewind on the mac you know this is if you know what timeline was in windows 10 if you happen to be a windows user you know the idea here um keeps track of stuff that happens on your computer so you can retrieve it later uh the rewind approach on the mac was that it would essentially take a screenshot of your screen every few seconds and ocr and store it in a big database so that you can ask questions later and it could look it up in your timeline and you know do translation translation transcription of things that happen in voice calls and you know the rewind feature right microsoft is building this into their operating system again they tried to build a feature like this into windows 10 called timeline that one didn't work out as well because it required application developers to integrate with it and microsoft does have a little bit of a tough time getting its application developers to integrate new apis in a timely manner um so that one didn't catch on but they're taking another run at it and they are essentially using the rewind approach they're going to screenshot the screen they're going to ocr it they're going to throw large language models at it they're going to get they have a cool interface scrubbing through your timeline and they've even got one better than rewind because guess what they're microsoft they make windows so not only can you see stuff that from your past and search for it but also like they give the example of like oh there was some text and it's like oh it turns out that text was in a PowerPoint slide you can click on it in the in the recall timeline and it will jump you right into PowerPoint to that slide application level integration which Rewind can't do because they don't make the operating system and they don't make PowerPoint but Microsoft can do it and they did uh surprisingly to me anyway PC users and people who have no don't listen to this show and have no idea what Rewind is and don't know what a life stream is are flipping out about this for privacy reasons I feel like on this show we've had the privacy discussion before many times it's the same privacy story as rewind essentially oh it's all local it's encrypted you can turn it off you can exclude applications uh there's no smarts in it to automatically exclude like passwords and stuff which is flipping people out i'm assuming you can just turn this feature off this is one of those features that i obviously i love the utility of i love the idea of i see the privacy implications i do not have rewind installed on my system for multiple reasons one i feel like i don't want the performance at two i'm not sure about the privacy angle of it as well and three i've always imagined that it would be better if implemented by the platform owner so microsoft is the platform they're implementing this i think this features like this are essentially inevitable and will be useful but there will be a growing pains period when people freak out about it when there actually are privacy concerns because microsoft hasn't thought through all the bad things that can be done with this right we're in that period now so while i'm excited about this technology and this feature i agree with the caution of like essentially it's basically impossible that microsoft or rewind or any of these companies have gotten this right on the first try there are going to be trials and tribulations there are going to be problems with it but the utility the utility of being able to do this of being able to say where was that thing that I saw earlier today or yesterday and especially throwing large language models at it so you can ask you know plain English questions and get reasonable answers from your history that it has saved securely and being able to find the thing and click on it and jump into the application that had that file open to the exact part that you like microsoft is taking a step in that direction this is a great example of what marco was saying before of like microsoft being willing to do something that apple we can't imagine apple doing this rewind it it's great that it was a third party thing that they did it's really really cool that's why i was excited about that product but do you think at wwdc apple is going to have a system-wide screen screen recording and cataloging thing i don't think they will for the privacy reasons alone apple is not ready to try to do a feature like this in a privacy preserving way i think prove me wrong apple show me the apple rewind built into all of your operating systems i will you know give you the big thumbs up but this is such a hard problem that right now you know third party is taking a run at it's always microsoft apple will i think have to do this eventually but eventually could be decades or it could be two years from now we'll see how much this catches on right because again when microsoft tried this in windows 10 didn't work out this is their second run at it usually microsoft takes three tries to get something right so we'll see how it goes but this is all part of the co-pilot plus pc you need the mpu to do the recognition and the lm and the blah blah blah this is another way to try to sell these new pcs to people because they can do things that your pc can't do uh and is it an artificial gate is it a marketing gate or is it real because of the mpu or we kill your battery otherwise you know i think is rewind uh apple silicon only i think it is because it uses all the the soc like there is there are legitimate reasons to to gate this right and also it eats up your disk space and you know there's there's lots of caveats about this but links in the show notes where you can read more about it but i think features like this have utility that is undeniable if and when we can figure out how to do them in a secure tractable way that everybody understands and is okay with we're not there yet clearly because again i've seen so much outcry about this so people like i can't believe this what spyware are Microsoft taking screenshots of my screen?

1:57:03Like people who have not internalized, have not had months to internalize the idea, have not had years since Lifestream to internalize the idea of this are flabbergasted. In the same way that if you took someone from 1982 and explained you're going to carry a rectangle in your pocket that keeps track of your location and transmits it to Google headquarters, they'd be like, what? It's tracking you everywhere you go with satellites? We're all okay with that now. It's been worked out to the degree that humanity is comfortable with having gps in our phones yes there are still security concerns with gps yes a lot of people don't like it to be sent to google and only trust apple with it or whatever and some people may disable gps right but like in general something would be inconceivably privacy invasive to someone in the 70s or 80s is now something that the world just accepts you're going to have a thing in your pocket that tracks your location and by the way sends that location usually over the network somewhere you know if only so your family can find you with find my friends or whatever right to either one of the world's biggest corporations or one of the world's biggest advertising corporations right that the government can spy on you like oh yeah easily yeah so this there's an overton window situation here with with uh these rewind technologies but the utility is there i just think the implementation is going to take a little bit more work and so i think apple will have to have an answer for this but i really doubt this is the year that apple is going to have an answer this and like i said i think apple has to be the one to answer this because to do this feature well and correctly it has to be in the platform um and ideally it would be in the platform in a way that third parties could augment it but that's not the apple way and even microsoft's not doing that so we'll see how it goes but yeah that's yeah by the way uh copilot plus bcs can also do this and i the final note i know we are running on here but the final note on i copilot plus bcs i will just add that uh you may have been surprised if you just heard us talk about this event you'd be surprised to hear that the intel ceo and the amd ceo were on video talking during this what did they have to say and what they had to say was we still make pc stuff it's good so but here's the thing and here's the here's the big the big the big sad for me because i want pcs to go to arm this is one soc the snapdragon x elite and plus i mean it's two variants of the same SoC, right?

1:59:23It's a MacBook Air class SoC. Other PCs exist that are not MacBook Air class, faster ones, more powerful ones, right? There is no ARM answer to that. Microsoft does not have a Snapdragon X Elite Pro, Snapdragon X Elite Max, Snapdragon X Elite Ultra. They don't have that. It's as if Apple went to ARM and introduced the M1 and there were no other M chips, just the m1 amd and intel are still an incredibly important part of the pc market because there's no there is like all the more powerful amd there's nothing for them there's no i mean right now there isn't right so there's no denying there's no getting around them and i don't know how apple's i keep doing it i don't know how microsoft's going to deal with this because all these great features they rolled out these require copal outpost and i'm sure next generation intel and amd chips will have 40 tops and we'll be able to qualify and so on and so forth i don't want that though like we can't go on with the some pcs have arm and some pcs have intel and some pcs have amd microsoft just pick a horse and get your whole get the whole pc market you can do it i believe in you get the whole pc market onto something and arm is good because arm doesn't necessarily just mean qualcomm because other people can make arm chips too so it's not like you're stuck with one vendor you'd still have an amd intel right intel can make arm chips amd can make arm chips let's all make arm chips can we all do that can we all get on the same platform again the answer right now is we can't because they just have one macbook air caliber slash low-end macbook pro caliber soc and every other processor in the entire pc market is intel or amd so we're not there yet but i can see in the distance a way to get there and i really hope this time Microsoft is able to get everybody onto the ARM bandwagon.

2:01:16I think this is fine for now. First of all, just volume-wise, everyone buys this MacBook Air class laptop. If you're going to pick one, it's the right one. Right, exactly. So it's important to have that one covered. And at the high end, you have a lot of serious nerds and gamers who are going to, they are going to crap all over this kind of thing so there is like it's almost like don't even try for the gamers they're going to hate you no matter what you do so don't even bother trying let the gamers keep having their giant hot pcs don't make a good arm cpu for gamers no i mean eventually that's possible but that is so far so far beyond the horizon right now because gamers will just be so incredibly resistant to any of this i mean the good thing is the gamers can continue to use their nvidia gpus you're not taking that away from them like apple did right yeah hopefully um so yeah so i mean and that that's certainly that obviously helps but you know gamers are going to be the last people to move off of intel and amd so let them have that they are ultimately a fairly small part of the pc market the big part of the pc market is this stuff it's the 13-inch laptops like that and that and like you know the cheap desktops for businesses, that's most of the PC laptops or most PC market rather.

2:02:37If Microsoft and Qualcomm and everybody else, if they can work out the 13 to 15 inch laptop category, everything else is secondary to that. Let them do this first. And then if they establish a big footprint with these, like if they actually are able to sell a bunch of these, then Windows software makers will have to have dual architecture support. Whatever they call universal binaries or however they work that out over there, they're going to have to all do this over the coming years. And then eventually, when the gamers start grumbling and slowly coming around when an ARM chip is released that actually is faster than what they need, then there will be a lot of software there.

2:03:21And the kinks will have been worked out and things like that. Things will be more mature. So they'll come in time, but it is totally right for Microsoft to completely ignore gamers right now. I don't know if it's like part of the reason we loved it so much when Apple went to ARM is because of the whole like, can you believe I now have a laptop that performs like a desktop? And they don't have that unless they have the equivalent of the Pro Max and Ultra things. You know what I mean? Like they don't that part of the transition that we enjoyed, they are not going to be able to enjoy until they have some chips.

2:03:50And again, I'm sure there are chips coming. Like it's not it's not an impossibility. It's straightforward. Just make a bigger one of those. Like obviously their cores are pretty good. The tech is good. Like they just don't have it yet. Right. but that was part of our transition was the glee of like of you having your desktop laptop i mean like there's no more compromise this is desktop caliber uh and a macbook air uh soc is not desktop i know you use the macbook air as your desktop laptop and you enjoyed it but like when you could get a better one you did and it's way faster true however man the like the macbook air is so good also like i mean it really like you're right it is wonderful to have the additional resources of the bigger chips however almost everybody can do almost everything they need to do just as well on an m3 or m2 or m4 than they could on you know the max chips like it they're just they're that good for so many things i i think i think uh despite this terrible name that pc users and companies will learn through like the grapevine when you ask for your next pc make sure you ask for a co-pilot plus and they'll be like what am i supposed to ask for just trust me just i know it sounds stupid but just make sure whatever laptop you get next time say it has to be a copilot plus pc here i'll paste it to you you're like with a plus sign like yeah just ask for that because like you don't have to know i need an arm piece don't ask for an rpc you might get a windows rt one you don't want that right just this you want one of these right and it's so weird that they bundled that i was like but i don't want to do that ai thing where i talk to you know chat gp it's like no that's not why you want it it's just a good laptop right just get that one i think that will happen i really hope that happens uh and then yeah eventually they need to make new chips you know the problem is amd and intel are also you know in the mix here they also they all have cpus and soc type things that will eventually qualify but like i said i don't want them to qualify i want just you can't i don't think it's tenable put it this way i don't think it's tenable to have a dual cpu architecture windows strategy like in perpetuity like that windows runs an x86 and arm and forever and ever you just you buy one pc and the laptops come with arm and the desktops come with intel like i don't doesn't make any sense to me it doesn't make sense there's no reason it has to be that way arm socs can be just as fast as the intel like there's no reason for it and just adds confusion to the market and obviously if you're intel and amd you think there is a very big reason for it because you make you sell those things but if you're microsoft i really hope microsoft despite having those friendly relationships with amd and intel and putting them in their keynote.

2:06:15I hope Microsoft is talking to Qualcomm and saying, or other people to make ARM things and say, when are you going to get those desktop ARM SOCs ready for us because we're ready to ditch these Intel guys. All right. Thank you to our sponsor this week, Squarespace. Thanks to our members who support us directly. One of the perks of membership is ATP Overtime, a bonus topic segment that we do every week. This week's Overtime is about Apple and OpenAI. There's been some reports recently about Apple possibly, very possibly, partnering with OpenAI for some of their upcoming features. So we're going to talk about that in ATP Overtime.

2:06:51You can join and listen at atp.fm slash join. Thank you, everybody, and we'll talk to you next week.

2:07:00Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin. Because it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental. John didn't do any research. Margo and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental It was accidental And you can find the show notes At ATP.FM And if you're into Mastodon You can follow them At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M And T-Marco are meant S-I-R-A-C U-S-A Syracuse It's accidental Accidental They didn't mean to Accidental Accidental Tech podcast So long So over Mother's Day weekend, I had been to my parents' house for an overnight for the first time in a while.

2:08:08The whole family went. And I brought the Vision Pro. even though they didn't ask me to. And I, and I thought, you know, maybe one or both of them would want to try it because my mom is interested in like pop culture things. And my dad is super interested in technology and that sort of stuff. So we stayed, I think it was Friday and Friday into Saturday, or maybe it was Saturday and Sunday. It doesn't matter. But on the first day, mom tried the vision pro and my parents are 70 ish, give or take a little bit, and they don't have stellar vision and I don't have any lenses in my vision pro because as garbage as my vision is without contact lenses in with contact lenses, it's actually pretty good.

2:08:47And so, um, I, you know, do the whole guest thing. This was at their like kitchen table. I set up my iPad pro as the, um, screen mirroring and strapped, you know, the thing on mom's head. And, and I had her try, like I think I forget exactly what I did and in what order but basically I had her look at panoramas that I had taken like I think I showed her one of Cape Charles I think I showed her one at the top of the pyramid in Memphis from a couple of weeks back I had her try a couple of spatial videos I'd taken one at Hanukkah and one I think of Mikhail on a swing and I had her watch a little bit of the Alicia Keys thing do the dinosaur thing and so on and so forth and actually quick aside there's some new stuff developing coming up in the next week or two.

2:09:40There's a Marvel app called What If that's debuting, I think, Friday, tomorrow, sometimes we record something like that, or maybe it's next week. I forget exactly when it is, but soon. And then apparently in Apple's adventure series, they have a new video coming for a bunch of dudes. I think it's dudes, maybe it's people, just people in general, a bunch of people doing parkour somewhere. And that's going to be in the same series as the woman who was doing the like high wire tightrope whatever walking at the fjord but anyways yes isn't that great after five months we get episode two of that series excuse me it has been four months thank you oh my mistake only four months we get episode two things are going fine they're doing the opposite of when netflix drops the whole season and once yeah one episode every four weeks yeah four months yeah yeah anyway so uh mom tries it out and at first, you know, with the panoramics, she was like, at panoramas, she was like, wow, that's really cool.

2:10:34And then I think it was the dinosaur thing. And I'm not going to put a picture in the show notes because, you know, it's a picture of mom and I don't know if she wants it on the internet or whatever, but I looked up at her and it was so funny to me. And again, I'm pretty sure it was during the experience dinosaurs, whatever it's called, thing where, you know, like T-Rex or what have you, I don't remember exactly what dinosaur it is. is walking up to you and whatever the case may be. Um, but one way or another, it's approaching her and I can tell she's not scared of the dinosaur, but it's the funniest picture that I took of her because like, take your hands and like, bring them up to like your collarbone, you know, like kind of clutch them to your chest.

2:11:19You know what I mean? That like feeling that, that, you know, she wasn't, I'm, I'm again, I'm almost sure she wasn't scared of the dinosaur. It's just, it was like such a striking, weird experience for her that she like her, her natural, like visceral reaction was like to bring her hands in close to her chest and kind of be like, ah, what's going on? And it was so funny to me watching her do this. And she was surprisingly into it. She doesn't want one. She just, she seemed super duper into it. That being said, a couple of problems. Number one, for the love of f***ing c***, can we please get mirroring for DRM content?

2:12:07It is so frustrating. It is so frustrating. I intellectually get why it is this doesn't work. but Apple controls everything. They make it work for their own iPad minis in the store. Why? They know if there's another monitor plugged into an iPad or into an Apple TV or whatever the case may be. You can't plug one into an Apple TV. You know what I mean? Or if there's anything plugged into an Apple TV, or tell me I could only do it with an iPad so they have control. I don't know. Or black it out on HDMI, but don't black it out on the Vision Pro. Figure it out, Apple, because it's so frustrating. it's so frustrating i feel like there are 800 different ways that they can make this work better and they have chosen none of them so frustrating also i don't watch a lot of apple tv plus the stuff that i watch i really enjoy but i generally don't watch a lot of apple tv plus and to me thus to me the apple tv app basically does not exist for me you know not not the device The app on your phone or Vision Pro or what have you.

2:13:19You mean the TV app on your Apple TV where you watch Apple TV Plus? Right? It's so frustrating. It's so bad. That app basically does not exist for me. And because of that, I am not used to it. And I'm giving you the world's biggest air quotes, information architecture, which is to say it is such a f***ing mess in there. It is such a mess. And so I'm trying to explain to mom and I'm no longer mirroring to my iPad because I want her to see the stuff, the DRM stuff, like the dinosaurs, which why that's DRM to whatever, but I, I, I'm no longer able to follow along and I'm trying to describe to her, well, there's this stuff on the left on the toolbar, try in there and go to this and go to that and then scroll down and scroll over and this and that.

2:14:08All I wanted to do was find the immersive demo, which I think she might have like come across and just not realized, you know, I wasn't doing a good job describing what she needed to look for, but it should be particularly on the vision pro. It should be front and center, right? Big as day, or there should be a specific tab for like Apple's immersive junk. There's a tab for 3d, but there's no tab for Apple's immersive junk. It's the same way. You can't find the square that lets you resume watching the show that you were watching last night they hide it they hide the thing you want to get to i don't understand the apple is so good at design and the design of the app like visual design it's pretty good it's fine but the information architecture is trash it's straight up trash oh my gosh it makes me so angry it's very hard to find what you want it's it's impossible sometimes intentionally for finding the next episode but sometimes unintentionally like the immersive the immersive thing is not them being intentional it's just well they get side swiped by the whole like we have to show you new stuff all the time, but like they know you're using a vision pro.

2:15:10It's not like they can tell. Oh, it's so frustrating. You know, we've gotten this question a couple of times. If you could go to Apple and be king for a day, what would you do? Honestly, today I might fix all this junk with the vision pro. Let me see DRM content, even if it's with humongous restrictions. Another example, actually, which I didn't think of. And again, intellectually, I understand how they landed here. I have mom do an immersive environment. I think I might've been the desert. It might've been Mount hood. I don't really recall. It doesn't really matter, but whatever immersive environment she, you know, cranks a little digital crown to get into, she is in a place and it has some sort of ambient sound.

2:15:49Let's say it was like the crickets or what have you at Mount hood. I'm saying to her, well, do you hear anything? She says, no. All right, well, look up and then look to the right and spin. And then you try to turn the volume. And she's like, no, I still don't hear anything. Come to realize, I was still mirroring to my iPad. And when you're mirroring to your iPad, what are you mirroring? You're mirroring the video and the audio. I don't want that. I want the audio to stay in the Vision Pro. I want the video to be mirrored so I can see what the hell she's doing. But I want the audio to stay in the damn Vision Pro.

2:16:22So she... Again, in the Apple Store, they do this. Right? It's just... It's so frustrating. And by the way, looking at these pictures of your mom here, Casey, the bottom part of her face is your face oh yeah look at that picture i'm like yep is that casey wearing a wig i totally believe you she's wearing a vision pro but there is no doubt this is your mother yeah i i'm not offended i totally believe you i can't say that i see it but i'm oh my god 100 especially the smile at the top one holy holy casey and and the second thing is the forced perspective in this picture because the battery pack for the pros in the for at the foreground it looks so big i mean it's like a laptop small it's not small it looks like a laptop in that picture again i'm sorry for those of you who are listening because i i would rather not share these publicly but i obviously shared them with the boys it's nice that also that your mom has easy as a decorator there's so actually is huge so funnily enough if funnily enough marco of all people might recognize that clock, not from Virginia, but because that's from the lake.

2:17:27It is. It is from the lake. And, uh, and you know, my grandmother is still around, but in body and not really in mind. And they unloaded their lake house many years ago. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, uh, we did our origin stories, uh, as an ATP, uh, members episode, uh, time before most recent. And Marco and I talk about how we met among other things. Well, anyways, uh, that, that clock was my dad's mom's, uh, up at the lake where Marco and I had met spoiler alert. and it eventually made its way down to my parents' house. But yeah, the thing weighs apparently. It's a three-foot diameter clock, people.

2:17:59Yep. And allegedly it weighs like 7 ,000 pounds. Not literally, of course, but a lot. It looks like the back is solid wood. So like, yeah, that's going to be heavy. Yeah. So in any case, so mom tries it, and she is blown away by it. And as much as I'm grumbling about the experience and as much as I'm grumbling about the fact that the DRM stuff, the mirroring, et cetera, et cetera, the information architecture, And honestly, one of my favorite things to do with the Vision Pro, no hyperbole, I am not messing about. I'm being deadly serious. One of my favorite things to do with Vision Pro is to have other people try it because it is unreal.

2:18:35And as much as I'll whine and moan about certain aspects of the Vision Pro, I cannot stress enough how incredible this hardware is and how you are looking at the future today. so mom was overwhelmed by it and my mom is the boisterous one of my parents you know any any gregariousness i think that's right that i get i get from her or that i have that i get from her um and so she was blown away and then um the following morning i had my dad try it and he was much quieter about it but it blew his damned mind and he was like i think if i told him that he could buy concerts because my dad is hugely into music.

2:19:22Whatever that I get from my dad. Like my mom likes music, but my dad always has music playing. That's where I get it from. Constantly finding new stuff to listen to. If I had told him that he could get Alicia Keys style concerts on the regular, you know, if he could go somewhere and buy them. And yes, there's an app whose name I don't remember. I think Amaze VR or something like that. We talked about this a couple of weeks ago that does this sort of thing. But if he could watch concerts in there, I think he would have bought one already. Because that's just his jam. And watching this Alicia Keys thing, like he likes Alicia Keys.

2:19:58I don't think she's his favorite by any stretch of the imagination. But being able to look around and, you know, if the bass player is just going nuts, you can look over at the bass player who may be across the room from you. But at least you can look over there and watch him. You're not at the mercy of the director. He was flabbergasted by the whole thing. And I did a little better prepping the Vision Pro before handing it to him. And I made sure that the Apple TV app was right before the immersive thing. That's the other frustrating thing, actually, is when you're on the main Apple TV app screen or wherever screen it is that brings you into the immersive demo, there's no landing page.

2:20:30So I couldn't queue up a landing page that's explicitly the immersive demo. It's just you have to get it tweaked, all the scroll views you have to tweak just right so that it's ready to rock because the moment you tap on that little rectangle, you're in the immersive demo. Does that make sense? There's no like - But how are you preparing it? Because did you put on the Vision Pro to prepare it? And then how - No, you have to because that's how you enable guest mode. But then when you take it off, doesn't it go into guest mode and lose everything that you did? I believe it. I haven't been on the receiving end of guest mode ever, I don't think.

2:21:06But my recollection is watching them and when mirrored is that the apps are resident even if they're not open. Apps stay open in the Vision Pro and there's actually that force quit menu that you can get to. And they actually stay, apps in general, just during general use, stay open in the Vision Pro much longer than you would expect. So when he opens it up, it's right there exactly where I left it. But all this to say, they were both, and again, these are 70-year-old people. My dad is very into technology, really good with technology. mom is capable for sure, but is not an enthusiast in the way that dad or, you know, we are.

2:21:44Um, but both of them were just blown away by it. And I think it's a healthy reminder for me how incredible this tech is, how cool this tech is, even if it isn't being realized the way we want, even though all three of us were just a few minutes ago snarking about, you know, four months later, we get episode two. And I think that snark is reasonable. I think Apple deserves it but what cool tech and i am glad that it exists and i think i glad i'm glad i bought one i'm not so sure but i'm definitely glad it exists so there you rented one to show your family yeah exactly it's important real-time follow-up uh flavor flave was the guy with the big clock around his neck not easy ever at the air just how many how many people sent feedback about that before i said this i know i should have corrected you i knew exactly what you meant i loved flavor of love back in the day.

2:22:35And if you don't know what I'm talking about, congratulations for better off for it. It's not what most people know I'm from, but okay. Nope, nope, nope. But I loved it. But anyways, yeah, it's the vision pro is just so much fun to do a demo. And again, you know, if Apple is still doing demos, which I think they are, I know we said it several times, I'm going to bring it back up. Go do a demo at Apple. It costs you 30 minutes. That's what it costs you. And gosh, is it so cool. It's worth it to go do the demo. And if you live overseas, when the time comes that you're up, which honestly I thought would have been by now and clearly isn't, but presumably shortly after WWDC, go do a demo because it is worth it.

2:23:13Yeah, I think the demo of the Vision Pro is actually better than owning a Vision Pro for most people. Like a lot of luxury goods, actually. It's like you can buy an amusement park ride and keep it in your house, but you're probably better off just riding it a couple of times in the amusement park and then going home. Indeed.