640: Put It in a Potato

33:09Eitling includes a link to Apple's own developer documentation for its DMA compliance features, which makes this clear, quoting from there. To help users understand whether an app contains an alternative payment option, the App Store will display an informational banner on the app's product page to identify the developer's enablement of this entitlement. When downloading an app, users are also informed if the app uses PSPs. What does that stand for? Payment something, something. Payment service processor? I don't know. There you go. Or links out on the purchase confirmation sheet. Apps that contain an alternative payment option are required to present users with a disclosure prior to each transaction or link out to purchase to help them understand that the purchase isn't backed by Apple.

33:45Real-time follow-up, I believe it's payment service provider. Thanks to Chris Vanazzo in the chat. Yeah, this is, I mean, all this, these facts are actually coming up in court now. Like, as we said, when Apple, you know, implemented its supposed compliance, we said, you know, this Apple is making it as unattractive as possible to use these things and lo and behold if you make it really unattractive nobody uses it which is exactly what apple wanted and is also why their compliance is not particularly compliant yeah i love like yes we were indeed wrong last week when we said apple just started to become a jerk in this way apple's defense was we've been a jerk in this way for years look at us go you just never noticed because because we made it so unattractive that no one ever wanted to use this we are brought to you this episode by delete me.

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36:07All right, let's do some topics. And we're going to start tonight with some news from Bloomberg. Reading from there, Apple is working on a software development kit and related frameworks that will let outsiders build AI features based on the large language models that the company uses for Apple intelligence. Apple expects to unveil the plan on June 9th at its worldwide developers conference. This sounds pretty cool. I don't know. I was thinking about this over the last couple of days after I read this article. I don't know specifically what I would do with this with CallSheet. And I obviously don't know the capabilities either, but I can see how this would be really neat.

36:39And as an example, I can imagine, you know, being able to ask this, you know, AI thing, you know, given, given all the information, you know, about my pins and call sheet, for example, show me movies that have, uh, you know, at least two of the actors I've pinned in call sheet in the same movie. I don't think I'm doing a good job verbalizing that, but hopefully you know what I mean. Uh, and I think that would be really neat or, you know, maybe show me a podcast that are similar to ATP, you know, overcast or something like that. We'll see what this actually is. And I'm, I'm, I'm really trying not to get my hopes up because oftentimes Apple really He doesn't like to give us a long leash with which to run, but I'm here for it.

37:19And I mean, I think we talked about last week, the week before that, you know, Ben Thompson's been calling for this for months now. I'm here for it. This sounds great tentatively. We'll see what actually happens. Marco's been calling for it for months. Yeah. Ben Thompson's mentioned recently, Marco's been for maybe years. This is what Marco wanted out of Apple Intelligence. He has complained since WWDC 24 that he was not getting. So how do you feel about this announcement? Right, because, you know, Last of WBC, you know, there's been a lot of the recent stir up about how, you know, Apple Intelligence stuff that was debuted in Last of WBC was delayed or seemed like fabricated in some degrees.

37:53But my problem at the time was at this developer conference, you've just announced a whole bunch of features that developers have no way to use. All of iOS 18 has gone through with Apple intelligence slowly appearing in bits and pieces, and there's no APIs for developers to use any of this stuff. And so these days, there is actually a lot of utility that apps can have by using LLMs or other advanced AI models like transcription, for instance, which would be relevant to me. like there are other you know uses of ai in apps and the only way for apps to do this to date has been to either bundle in a giant model into your app and you know and run it on the device which is you know huge and cumbersome and requires you know some some advanced knowledge to actually get it to work right or you could call it to a web service and use some kind of api which is very expensive or you could host your own on your own servers and have your app talk to your servers and do it server side which is also very expensive and requires very advanced knowledge and everything so what I hope and what I hoped for last year and what this sounds like maybe we'll get is whatever Apple intelligence is currently capable of doing with its models let apps have an API to do similar things.

39:18You know, when you look at the history of software development and the advancement of computers, you know, what really makes the tide rise and lift all boats, maybe that's a bad analogy in the era of climate change as they live on a barrier island. But what really raises the standards for everybody is when the platform, when they add APIs to make things that used to be difficult easy for everyone, that helps everybody you know it used to be back in the days basics of like graphics and sound apis and then networking apis got added and then over time we've gotten much more advanced apis that like the platform vendors offer nice api layers on top of complex things that you know are maybe hard to do yourself if you're not an expert in those fields and then individual developers like me can have an app that does pretty advanced things because i didn't have to write every little detail of like the ui framework the graphics layer the animation layer the audio engine oh sorry yeah right but even even i haven't written a lot of the audio engine like i wrote the parts that generates the samples and processes them and i didn't even have to do that but like there's a lot of parts about like routing it to different speakers and stuff the whole airplay layer like i didn't have to write that um you know so there's a lot of power when the platform owner makes an API to make otherwise complex things possible, easy, and free to do on device to all developers of all sizes.

40:48We all win, including Apple, because then more great apps are available for their platforms, and therefore more people buy their hardware and use their platforms. And Apple's APIs, in many ways, in many instances throughout time, have been class-leading. So So certain things are way easier to do with Apple's APIs than they are on competitors' APIs. So that also tends to bring you better apps or the best apps or apps come out first on your platform, which has been an advantage that Apple has enjoyed a lot with iOS. So there's huge value in the platform vendor offering amazing APIs to make complex or expensive or tricky things easy.

41:33and Apple also has this amazing asset that the iPhone is a really fast computer and has a lot of resources and even though we've complained about like you know RAM in the past limiting LLM models and stuff like that the reality is compared to other platforms the iPhone and of course also the Mac which would presumably also benefit from some of these APIs Apple's hardware is really good it's really fast it's really capable they have really good neural engines that they've had for a long time. They have lots of memory. So they have the hardware grunt to do on-device LLM processing to an extent and generally to a greater extent than most of their competitors in most ways.

42:16So that's a huge asset. All of Apple's developers are writing software for these supercomputers that people have in their pockets. So from my point of view for Overcast, if I wanted to offer transcription, I could do a whole server-side thing. it would cost a fortune. I probably would lose a lot of money on it. And I don't really know much about server side hosting of AI models and stuff like that. And so I would have to learn a whole bunch about how to do it. I would spend and lose tons of money. It would be a huge ordeal. And it might at the end of the day, not even be able to be worthwhile because I might just lose too much money on it.

42:55But my app is running on many, many, many iPhones all the time. And those iPhones have all this computational power. And I can't use it whenever I want, but I can use it when they're plugged in and charging overnight. Like there's like a huge resource there of all these iPhones that are sitting around that could do local computation for our apps. Now, if Apple wants to enable a whole bunch of developers like me to be able to make cool AI features in our apps from big to small. It could be as simple as a basic text summarization API so that I can summarize things in table view cells the way they do in mail.

43:37That would be great. It could be as simple as that. And it could also be more advanced stuff like transcription or like generation based on prompts like text synthesis. It could be image generation. It could be all sorts of things that we see the devices are able to do now. If Apple makes those available as APIs and those APIs are not fatally restricted, then we can do a lot with that. The entire app ecosystem can grow. Apple's software platform can grow. Everybody wins. And we all also, you know, that generates maybe some iPhone lock-in, which I know Apple loves because the iPhone is really good at this stuff and usually is a generation ahead of Android phones and computational power and stuff.

44:21So that would be great for everybody. I hope they actually have done it and I hope there aren't too many fatal limits. So what would a fatal limit be? Number one, if we can use all these models on the phone, but they suck. Like that would be a fatal limit. I don't expect the models on the phone to be competitive with like flagship chat GPT and stuff like that models that run on giant servers. They're not going to be that. There's not enough memory for that. But I hope whatever they're shipping on the phone, if there are APIs for it, I hope it's decent at least. And decent for what it is, for an on-device model.

44:55I hope they're able to do that. Number two, I hope that the apps are allowed to use them in an unlimited fashion bound only by like power constraints. So obviously, if your app is being used in the foreground, you should be able to use LLMs and whatever these APIs might be in an unlimited way, the same way you can use unlimited graphics and GPS and stuff. You can use all these things as much as you want when your app is in the foreground. I also hope that there's some way to do them in the background. They have the system I mentioned earlier about being able to use power when your phone is plugged in and charging overnight.

45:31There's a whole system called background tasks in iOS, this whole API, and you can register for a background processing task, which you tell you basically tell the system when your app launches hey if you get a chance to have like unlimited power let me do this and wake me up and call me when you're ready and then you can do as much cpu time as you want during those tasks and the phone will tell you if you have to stop but like otherwise you can just go nuts whereas and you can do this all in the background so this these are typically scheduled when you're charging your phone overnight like most people do and so you like any all the ios limitations on like how much cpu time you can use in the background over the course of a minute or whatever those are all lifted when you're in that mode so if we can do things in that mode that process things with the llm apis or the ai apis whatever we're calling these great like so there's all these ways that this can be really good i hope these models or apis i hope they don't suck i hope they're not limited in ways they don't need to be by like They absolutely need to be.

46:35And I hope Apple gives us a breadth of access to them, like not just a couple of really narrow uses, but a more broad way to access their capabilities and a more broad set of capabilities so that we can all make better software for their platform. Because we all complain about Apple. Look, I lead the charge about complaining about the way they treat developers and everything. But you can paper over a lot of the way they treat developers if they enable us to make really good software for the computers that we have. That is what we all love doing. All developers want to make great software for the computers that we have.

47:13That is the dream of being a developer. We love that. So if they enable us to make great software for their platforms, we can whistle past a lot of the ugly stuff. So I hope they are doing that. A couple of people in the chat room are pointing out that the typical Apple pattern is they will roll something out that only their apps use or only the os uses uh before they are ready to make it a third-party api that developers can use this is repeated for decades it's just generally the way apple does stuff and most a lot of operating system vendors do that a lot of platforms do that um two things on that first uh this is another result of being late if you're late that means that marco was complaining because he felt like he should have had these apis last year but of course last year was the first time that even apple was using them in a major os update so yeah if you're late that's you know i i'm not i think you'd be feeling better if 2023 apple did the stuff that only they could use in 2024 they rolled it out to everybody but now it just feels like everything's farther behind and second is tangentially related to our past discussions of the various dma requirements in the eu of saying basically when apple adds a feature to its platform it needs to be available to third parties.

48:27This is another place where this will be difficult for Apple to comply with because, and again, it's not just Apple. The usual way to do it is you roll it out first as a private thing and shake it out and make sure you figure out what works, what doesn't, you know, like figure out how useful it is. And then a year later, you can say, okay, now we have something that we can make an API. Because of course, once you make something an API, Apple tends to support its apis for a very long time so you're really committing to it uh and it's like well if apple could get it right on the first time and the first try and say here you go it's a new api and it's available for apple's apps and for third-party apps all at the same time that's so much harder than saying we're going to give it a year where just apple apps use it to figure out like how it works and work out the kinks and figure out what we want the api to look like or whatever before we commit to it for third parties maybe that's one of the reasons that apple's apis are usually pretty good because they do uh as they say dog food it themselves and use it themselves internally most of the things that like uh you know like when swift ui came out here that came out for everybody at the same time didn't it well no because they were kind of using it on the watch before you knew it was swift ui um there are exceptions like it is possible to roll something out both internally and publicly more or less at the same time but all i'm saying is that it's more difficult so anyway apple is behind and marco is impatient but maybe this will be his year i i don't think wanting like basic llm and modern ai apis on your smartphone platform in 2025 is being impatient and you can kind of judge by looking around at the rest of the industry to see like look they're all shipping this stuff they're late and you are impatient impatient doesn't mean wrongfully so that means your your patience is being tested by apple being late in this area oh and the other thing i'll add here is that i feel like this is a perfect fit for the model that apple has used with some of its other developer services like i don't know the names of these maybe youtube do but like the various like cloud kit apis where you get a bunch of stuff for free but then if you go over a certain limit either it starts being charged to the user's icloud storage for example and isn't there one where also the developers have to pay for some i forget but yeah weather also works that way yeah that weather is a good other good it's like it's a great thing that apple does that platforms can do is say this is too hard for a small group of developers to do on their own so we will vend this api but this api does cost us money to run but you can use it for free for a small number of customers for a small number of requests for a small number of calls but then above and beyond that we'll charge you for it uh that's actually i mean that is a thing that developers like like i don't want to have to worry about this i would love to be able to try it for free especially if i can like ship and if i don't get a lot of customers, I don't never pay anything.

51:13But if I get a lot of customers, that's a problem I like to have, I'll gladly pay for this API for me to use private cloud compute is a perfect solution for that. We're saying all the models that run on device are going to be crappy and burn your battery. Apple has a solution to that don't want to run it on your phone transparently through private cloud compute, you can run it on our servers, which costs us money. So we'll probably have to charge you just like open AI and other companies. And that seems like a reasonable business. I really hope that's part of their announcement is not just you can use our dinky tech summarization engine on the phone and kill your user's battery, I would love to be able to say, can I use your big honking model?

51:48And I get X number of requests for free, but then you start charging me or whatever, because that doesn't have to run on the phone. And, but with private cloud compute, it can be fairly transparent that that's happening. So fingers, that's my wish for this story here. Well, be careful what you wish for, because, you know, that can also go a little bit wrong. So for instance, maybe one of the ways that Tim Cook will start squeezing more profit out of developers if they can't, you know, hike the rates and keep looking for everyone's, you know, keep looking under everyone's couch cushions and be like, hey, it looks like you got some income coming some other way.

52:20One of the ways that they could grow the services revenue more would be, hey, you know what? These new APIs that everybody wants to use that even run locally, you have to pay extra for those. Like that, they could do that. That is not beyond Tim Cook. I 100 % guarantee that. They shouldn't do that for lots of reasons. I think that would be a strategic error in many ways. To be clear, that's not what I'm asking it for. I'm just asking for what OpenAI has. If you use their API, you have to pay for it above a certain usage or not. Yeah, you're saying let us use Apple's server-side APIs. And that would be reasonable to charge for.

52:57But I would be careful because then as devices get bigger and better over time, Apple would have more of an incentive to not make the on-device models or at least the publicly available on device models to not make those better. Like you want to be real careful what kind of incentive you give Tim Cook because he will squeeze every single cent out of whatever he can without regard to the quality of the software experience. So you absolutely don't want to do that. And also like once you're paying for it. I mean, again, there's precedent here with all the CloudKit APIs and stuff that I've so far have not been a slippery slope that has led us into Doom.

53:33So I'm mostly okay with it. Yeah, but those didn't debut recently. like let's let's see what you know what today's apple does i mean tim cook was in charge when they rolled out the cloud kit apis too so yeah but he was also printing money from the app store back then like if if things are starting to get squeezed you know they will never accept less money as the solution like they will they will find other ways like look we have search ads came up in the meantime and now we're we'll have to pay to get our apps installed you know in addition to paying apple to 30 like they're just if there's a way for them to squeeze us they will so if if they get into the business of charging us to use private cloud compute that could create a bunch of very bad incentives that over time i think would not be good well that's a competitive market though because apps are out there now saying please enter your open ap open ai api key here that you're already paying for like so there is it is competitive it's not like we're locked into using apple's private cloud compute apis which currently don't exist tons of apps are out there using third-party apis and paying them for it so i feel like it's a competitive market and won't be that big of a deal well the other thing is like if they are making you pay to use their private cloud compute you would probably also start looking around at other apis as competitors and i think i would be shocked if apple's apis were competitive once once you're already going out to a server and paying for it i bet you have a lot of other options that are that would be better and or cheaper than apple's well i said it's competitive so if apple wants people to use it they have to like you just look at the cloud kit apis there's lots of other apis you can use for data remote databases or sync engines or just rolling your own aws and there's all sorts of like managed and unmanaged solutions to doing that apple rolled out an api and they did make it you know it's convenient to use it's nice it fits with their apis and it's actually pretty cheap like it's price competitive with the other things that are out there so again that's why i'm not worried about this but we'll see we'll see what they announce i mean i don't think any of the rumors even talked about server style stuff it just seems mostly like that you'll be able to use the on device models which is less interesting to me because i feel like the on-device models are like you said are going to be dinky uh and even if they're not dinky or or they do what you need them to do they are gonna they're running locally and they're burning your battery so like there's a bounce to be struck there and i think a lot of the you know i don't know like i don't actually i would love to see a survey of like of all the apps that are shipping now how many have shipped their own models and eat up the you know disk space on people's phones or whatever uh versus how many use api keys and what the what the uh the best practices these days because some things you just can't run on device but if you can run on a device maybe it's better to do it over the api anyway just because it simplifies everything about installation and everything although again as we've talked about apps aren't shy about taking disk space i just looked at uh i think someone who posted about this somebody posted about it recently about the uh uh lg app that tells them when their laundry is done and i instantly they had said they had said it at the same time that I got a notification that my laundry was done from this very same LG app and I looked at it, 800 megabytes.

56:26Good gracious. It sends me notifications when the washing machine is done, 800 megabytes. Oh my god. That's bananas. I have home assistant powered solutions for you that we can talk about. Yeah, I got a Raspberry Pi and point a camera at it and it'll be great. No, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. We'll take it offline. It's almost that bad. Stop it. Now you're going to make me talk about it. I'm going to be an adult and I'm going to resist, but there are solutions. Sure. All right. We also have other breaking news. Open AI has decided to buy Johnny Ives' AI company. I'm sorry, what? Let me say that one more time.

57:01Open AI decides to, or is going to buy Johnny Ives' AI company. This is not Love From, mind you. That's his design company. This is his AI company. So, reading from The Verge. Open AI is buying IO, lowercase IO. Not the really good Peter Gabriel album, but instead a hardware company founded by former Apple design chief Johnny Ive and several other former engineers from his time there, including Scott Cannon, Evans Hanke, and Tang Tan. We gathered together the best hardware and software engineers, the best technologists, physicists, scientists, and researchers, and experts in product development and manufacturing, Ive and OpenAI CEO Sam Altman said in a joint post.

57:35Many of us have worked together closely for decades. The I.O. team, focused on developing products that inspire, empower, and enable, will now merge with OpenAI to work more intimately with the research, engineering, and product teams in San Francisco. it's a nearly 6.5 billion dollar all stock deal bloomberg reports uh from the announcement as io merges with open ai johnny and love from will assume deep design and creative responsibility across ai excuse me open ai and io uh just as a quick reminder humane went for 116 million io which has been around for like 10 minutes apparently has just earned or sold for 6.5 billion.

58:14I think it's like 55 people. So that's a good payday for you're wondering how those people left Apple. Why would you ever leave Apple? I know Johnny left, but why would they leave and go off and do their own thing? Seems like they should just stay at Apple. Well, here's why. Join a company that gets bought out for$6.5 billion and you're one of the founders slash early employees. That probably worked out pretty well for you. Again, it is all stock and not cash, so they're kind of pinning their hopes to OpenAI, but so far OpenAI seems to be doing pretty well. So kudos to all those folks for getting a good exit, as they say.

58:45And we had on the show rumors about this before that Johnny Ive was working with OpenAI and some kind of AI thing. We talked about it when we were discussing the Humane Pin that you just mentioned. And in fact, I didn't get the quote for it here, but I believe there was a quote from Johnny basically dissing the Humane Pin and the Rabbit R1 saying, yeah, those are bad products. We're going to do better. He was right. This is a paraphrase. this is a paraphrase, but Johnny Ive is not one to say things like that, but he was pretty blunt in saying, yeah, they didn't do a good job and we're going to do better.

59:17Um, there was the, did you guys watch the video that accompanied us, the announcement video thing? Oh, it was the slowest. Hold on. Hold on. Let's back up. So, uh, what this is is they put together like a kind of a single serving site and in a video associated with it. Uh, this is at open AI.com slash. What is it? Sam and Johnny with hyphens in between. This video, oh my word. It was beautifully shot. That's about where. By the Coppola family, maybe, if I saw it in the credits. Yeah, I saw that in the credits, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's about 10 minutes long, if I recall correctly. It is 10 minutes of navel gazing and talking about how San Francisco is the best place in the entire world.

1:00:03which as a born and bred East coaster, I take major offense to, but that's neither here nor there. Um, it was so vapid and silly and weird. And a lot of words were said, but nothing was really accomplished. Like, well, it was kind of, it was kind of a love fest, not a love from, but a love fest. Sam and Johnny, Sam and Johnny, uh, both believe in the same thing and have the same values as far as Johnny's knows. Um, and, And they both really care about the future of technology, and they want to help people with technology, and they believe in beauty and truth and all these other things. And I'm watching this, and it's like, I don't know Sam Altman that well, but the little I know of him makes me suspicious whether he actually shares his value.

1:00:48Johnny, I totally believe does. I've seen Johnny for many, many years, but following his career very closely, read at least one complete book on him, maybe two. I feel like I have a bit of a read on the public persona, at least, of Johnny Ive. sam altman uh i know less about and what i have seen makes me think that's what you would say if you wanted johnny i have to uh to really like his company and have him join you so i'm wondering how that relationship is going to because if you watch the video you think johnny i found the next steve jobs and it's like dude it's sam altman like he wore two collars on stage at wwc or whatever like it's that guy like and or he got kicked out of his own company and like just i'm not saying sam altman's a bad person like i don't know that much about him but he just does not seem like a steve jobs caliber visionary but he fancies himself one for sure in this video he plays himself up as one and like you can do that if you're not sitting next to johnny hive when you do it because i feel like there's a little bit of a little bit of a resume imbalance there uh but then you get johnny being like i think like my whole career has been leading up to this uh like all that time i spent an apple was just a warm-up back so i'd be ready to do this thing and it's like all right johnny whoa okay all right just you know i i love the confidence yeah you know a lot of ability there but anyway i like so we mentioned the humane pin and the rabbit r1 both of which we talked about on past episodes of the show the things that uh were headwinds as they say in earnings call for those two products are still things that open ai and io and love from have to deal with no one in this new uh collaboration has a phone platform that was a problem for humane and rabbit they had to do things on their own they were not allowed to integrate with android or ios in the way the product like the ones they were making needed to uh open ai will have to deal with that too and i'm not sure there are any easy solutions second thing is Thank you.

1:02:49humane and rabbit had the problem where their entire products hinged on you know large language model ai things that they did not make open ai doesn't have that problem because guess what they make the lms so plus one for open ai there because if you're building a product on top of someone else's thing that you don't control and don't have ability to improve it's a big weakness but then the third thing is we don't know what this product is but i'm not the one who brought up humane pin rabbit johnny did and everyone thinks it's some kind of post phone thing that you can use an llm with and you know maybe you don't need a screen maybe it's a pin maybe it's a headband maybe it has a small screen maybe it's a family of devices one of which has a screen or whatever but like we're thinking in the same in that kind of realm right there right those type of products are essentially a way for you to get access to open ai's ai technology uh and johnny has been talking i'm making the round saying like oh you know people on their phones and the consequences of that and we could get away from that and have a more human interface i don't doubt johnny ive's ability to make an innovative attractive nice thing that connects human beings to open ai's technology where i doubts come in is can the thing that it's connecting me to do what Sam Altman and Johnny Ive hope it will be able to do.

1:04:20OpenAI, unlike the other companies, is empowered to make that happen because so far they've made a lot of things happen with LMs. So hey, they're the ones to do it. But right now, I have never seen any AI-based technology that is able to do the things that a successful Humane PIN or RabbitR1 type product needs to be able to do to be useful and all the demos it's like i talk to it it does these things it's so useful i ask it questions you know everything's great but in real life if you've actually used these products you know they can't do that yet in a way that is not frustrating right you really especially when you've got no no screen no keyboard you're not at your computer you just ambiently it's like a thing that you carry with you um in the video in the video sam alderman makes this weird analogy of like just think if i need it want to ask chat gbd a question what would i have to do i have to go into my bag and take out my laptop and open a web browser and it's like dude you take out your phone why are you not saying that you've heard about smartphones right right but i feel like he wasn't saying that because one of the products they have is kind of phone-like but anyway here's the thing like so many of these companies including open ai have stars in their eyes about when if things keep advancing the way they are pretty soon we'll have a thing where we can just talk to it and it will do what we want it to do.

1:05:38And that's the dream. And I kudos for them for shooting for it. And if anybody could do it, they're a leader in the industry. So I'm not saying they're not going to do it. All I'm saying is if they've done it, I haven't seen it. And so this whole product, this whole Johnny Ive powered $6.5 billion acquisition, huge amount of investor money depends on them being able to put something in that thing at the other end that you talk to that isn't insanely frustrating and they can actually do all the things that you want it to do apple certainly isn't in this race amazon which we'll get to in a future show announced that they've redone their uh their dingus product i don't want to say the name uh and we're like well look they've done what apple couldn't do but they have barely shipped it and it's not totally working so it's like i just i just felt like this entire industry is always uh their what is it the phrase their uh their reach always exceeds their grasp they're always looking uh you know to the future to the horizon whatever i don't know which thing i'm referencing now but um like they believe they can get to this place where it will be good in this way and and it's not good in that way it's good for a whole bunch of other things and it's good it has utility now and it has places where people can use it but to like but imagine if it was just like your friend and you could talk to it and do stuff where it's like that would be cool but you don't have that yet so don't make a product whose entire existence depends on that existing unless you're sure that by the time this product comes out supposedly next year you will have something that does that so this is quite a moonshot and i'll feel bad if johnny makes a beautiful thoughtful humane sorry but humane hardware product that connects to an llm that It just makes a lot of mistakes and frustrates everybody who tries to use it.

1:07:24All right. So I'm going to go out on two limbs here. You're going to hate them both. Number one, I think it's going to work. And number two, I think that there is a potentially likely future. It could be a distant likely future where Sam Altman becomes a high Apple executive. what? Well, so the first one, I don't first one, I don't hate at all. Because again, like I said, if anyone's going to do it, it's going to be the leader in the industry and not like humane or rabbit, right? So but all I'm saying is they need to do it. Because no matter how good that hardware is, the LM has to fulfill the promise of that heart.

1:08:10Like it has to, it has to be a good product. In the end, it has to be something that people want to use. And the problem with all the other products that are like that is like, well, I try to use it for its intended purpose, and it doesn't work and there's no screen and no keyboard and it's not a phone and it's not a computer and i just get frustrated and chuck it so they have to make that work so i don't hate your first point they could do it it's a year from now we don't know what they've got in the works or whatever like i'm not saying it's impossible like i think a product like this is someday possible and that's what everyone thinks i just i doubt their timeline so i don't hate that one second one sam altman is a high-powered apple executive yeah i hate that i think open ai is valuable enough that at some point it is possible that open ai and apple might merge in some form microsoft might have something to say about that i know exactly what i'm like i know how big of a scale thing that would be and that's also like that's part of why i'm predicting that this might happen down the road i don't know how far down the road i don't know in what form but i think something like that could happen because open AI is both really good at AI, which Apple is not, but also has really good product sensibility, which Apple lacks.

1:09:25Apple has, as we discussed last time, they really don't have clear product leadership under Tim Cook. I think Sam Altman has really good product sense. Yeah, he's young. He could use some experience. He's getting that. Maybe this is like next. Like, I know that's a reach, but I honestly think it's a possibility. Not tomorrow, but I think there is an actual possibility that Sam Altman has the right kind of product sense to actually bring a lot of good to Apple if he had enough power to actually execute on what he wanted to do. And that could take a few forms, but I think that is a possibility down the road.

1:10:07If Apple's own AI efforts don't work as well as they want them to if they're not very competitive and if AI starts to actually really disrupt Apple's core products, which I think it has the potential to. So that's the Sam Altman in Apple prediction. Let me just pause you for two seconds. Yeah. How old do you think Sam Altman is? I don't know, maybe like 40? 38. He is freshly 40, like a month ago. I thought he was younger than that, and 40 is not old, old, because... He was young when he was on that stage with the two collars, but that was a long time ago. Yes, it was. No, I didn't, I mean, because you said a minute ago, he's young and he's still learning, which I think that is true, but he's already 40.

1:10:51He doesn't look 40, but he is 40, so he's not as young as I thought he was. He's got a little bit of a baby face. Yeah, but I'm telling you, he has really good product sensibility, and that is rare in this business. I don't know if he has that sense. it's hard to attribute to the person obviously he's in charge and so everything the company goes that's good you say it's him i don't know i don't know enough about him but the apple you know the prediction that apple is going to buy one of these ai companies has been going around for years anthropic is usually the name that comes up like apple should buy anthropic they're they're smaller they're less expensive and they actually have really good technology what they lack is open ai's money so they're kind of behind open ai in a lot of ways but they've done a lot with what they have so maybe apple should buy anthropic buying open ai is fraught because microsoft is heavily invested there and that's there's the whole non-profit connection and that whole drama it's a little bit messy over there but you know it could happen i'm like apple having to buy one of these companies like you said because they have the potential to disrupt apple's business and if they started to apple would say well time to take out the wallet right and then we'll see if the depending on what administration is active at the time whether that merger is even allowed to happen um but yeah i can see that happening but then sam albin is an apple executive apple's track record with making big acquisitions then integrating the people who used to be in charge of those acquisitions is uneven worked out with steve jobs all right that worked pretty well other companies those executives even if they're still at apple they don't they don't set the world on fire like they if they're they find a place at apple and sam albin strikes me as the type of person who would almost not be happy in that and we would be looking for the door as soon as whatever his golden handcuffs let him leave apple like i don't think he relishes being a cog in the apple machine i think he wants to be the ceo of open ai i think he will accept a buyout for enough money but i think he'd be itching to go do something new because like that company he was on stage for at uh either macworld or wwdc is was not open ai like he seems like someone who wants to be starting new and interesting things.

1:12:58So I'm not sure how that will work. But I'm not currently, again, I have limited knowledge on Sam Holtman. So I'm basing this not on a lot of information. But the information I do have makes me think he would not make for a great Apple executive who wouldn't fit in and want to be looking for the door, even if Apple could buy them. But I do agree with you that Apple sure is headed on a course right now where they're going to have to buy one of these AI companies, even if it doesn't turn out to be a huge threat to their business even if it just turns out to be an essential thing that's out there uh the tim cook doctrine which i mostly agree with is own and control the primary technologies if it's real important for every company to have a great model and apple doesn't have one and can't make one then you got to buy one they had to do it with the operating system and again that worked out pretty well uh but the other companies have their own uh lms that are way ahead of where apple is and they're iterating on them so apple needs to have one too and if you can't make it buy it Yeah.

1:13:50And I think the more prudent thing for Apple to do would be to buy an established large team that has built these, but not necessarily OpenAI the company, because as you mentioned, there is a lot going on there. OpenAI also does spin off a lot of talent through all the messiness, like a lot of talented people. That's a nice way of putting it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A lot of talented people flee OpenAI and go somewhere else and start their own stuff. and so there's a lot of smaller ai companies out there that apple could buy or you know i mean that shows like google being smart for whenever they bought deep mind like that google was so much farther ahead of the game on this in terms of making acquisitions and making it work um i don't know we're not probably not gonna talk about google io i don't know if you two watched it but google once they finally settled on a name for their thing and called the gemini a few years ago and stopped calling the thing bard they are just iterating like you can you can uh again google's product sense may be not great but the gemini model and the things it can do and the rate it's advancing it's just it's really embarrassing for apple right and that again like this is like this is why this is critical technology for the modern era like talking about owning and controlling as you said like apple needs a strong ai story on their platforms right now they have no ai story we'll see you know the rumors from these articles are that they're like they're getting there maybe But, you know, there's a lot there's a large amount of space between getting there, maybe and there.

1:15:17And so we'll see what they can actually do. I do think that long term, what will happen is Apple will end up buying one of the medium sized AI companies. But I would not rule out the possibility that somehow Sam Altman ends up like heading up a large part of Apple. And I think and I'm not saying like, you know, next year, but maybe like within the next 10 years, maybe. I think he's somebody to really watch because he does show very strong product sensibility. Now, in the meantime, what I think he is making with Johnny? A watch. Think about it. Johnny freaking loves watches. He also loves cars.

1:15:54They're probably not making a car. I don't think they're making a car. I agree. I'm just saying. So I think they're going to make a – because what we saw with the humane dumb pin is that having some kind of like wearable for AI lookup type stuff is not completely a terrible idea. They just did a terrible job of it and they kind of picked a bunch of wrong decisions on the way there. But what a lot of people kept saying was like, this should be the Apple Watch. Like the Apple Watch should just do these things. Well, Apple's not doing it. And so I think this is actually very likely to end up being some kind of watch that we know Johnny loves making watches and he's decent at designing them, you know, so we'll see how that goes.

1:16:38We know that the watch is a physical role that a lot of people will have in addition to their phones. Like it doesn't compete for an already like it doesn't try to create a new category. Like you don't have to realize like, oh, how do I wear this with jackets or whatever? Like this is the way the AI pin just failed on a number of like physical fronts. You don't have to worry about that. People are already used to wearing smartwatches. They're very popular. Also, despite the success of the Apple Watch, which is largely successful, it's far from ubiquitous. Not everybody has an Apple Watch. And changing your smartwatch or adding a smartwatch to your life is a much smaller request.

1:17:17And it's a much smaller competitive burden to overcome than replacing your phone or replacing your computer. Although speaking of phone, though, what do you think about the barrier to platform integration? I do expect to get notifications from my iPhone on it. Why can't your thing do that, Johnny? it can so number one like you look at what like what can pebble and stuff do they can show notifications like they can't interact with them necessarily but they can do that right i was saying is that the the the interactions that apple allows between the iphone and third-party watches and the iphone and apple watch are very different which is the thing the eu is trying to make them change but that is a barrier to entry where you they won't be able to easily do everything the apple watch can do in terms of platform integration and that you know changing your watch is easier than changing your phone platform but you never know which integration features that someone with an apple watch is just expects to be there and when they find out the johnny ive thing doesn't do it it will be a little bit of a problem like platform integration is a tool that apple has to preclude competition in this area oh and and believe me they're gonna fight very hard on it but i think the watch is the area that like a well-designed like a johnny ive designed product could look really cool.

1:18:30A lot of people buy watches not for their utility, but just because they look cool. The application surface area for what people expect their watches to do is very small. Like, you don't need a whole phone platform to make successful smartwatches. Lots of smartwatches exist that aren't Apple Watches, and they do just fine in the market. Lots of smart fitness trackers and stuff like that. This is a very healthy category. Lots of them exist. and you know the EU keeps trying to crack open more capabilities out of out of watches from from the iOS so so I think this idea would make a lot of sense like if you imagine the humane AI pin done far better as a watch that actually could be something and when you have open AI and Johnny Ive those are two massive titans in these respective areas of physical design of small electronics and in particular watches and the ai backing of it i think that could be that could really be something it could have its own cell modem we know watches can fit cell modems just fine many of them do it's like it can even have its own cell modem it wouldn't have to use the phone for that it could be an independent device watches use very little data so you know they could have a subscription to some you know to carriers and you just use like the existing quote smart watch plans that carriers offer for like 16 bucks a month or whatever like i think there's enough ground laid there and it's an it's enough of a category that like people are willing to take risks with watches and wearables and stuff that they wouldn't take with their phones so i i'm guessing that's what they're doing and if they do that i think that could really be something that could be really cool so the one wrinkle to this is i believe the rumor is that this is a family of devices so that's why people are thinking one of them might be screenless and one of them might have a screen so maybe one of them might be watch like uh kind of one of the problems with watches and the reason they go with brooches and necklaces and stuff is based on even this video they kind of make it seem like oh like the if i take out my laptop i won't have heard the whole conversation that we had so i'd have to catch it up and type a bunch of stuff in so it seems like they're leaning towards something like those various pendants that are constantly listening to you and everything so if you put something on your wrist but you have your hands in your pockets it's harder to pick up audio than something that is around your neck or you know an open ai nose ring i don't know like anyway i we'll see like i think i there is something to the watch thing there are barriers to entry there if it's a family of products there's probably going to be one with a screen and one without and it seems like they'd have to be on your body somewhere and a what where can you put a screen that it could be on your body a wrist the wrist watch as a place to go so i could see that but i'm thinking i'm thinking more towards like the low-end one that doesn't have a screen is that around your neck is that behind your ear is like i don't know johnny i will figure something out but uh it seems like it has to be somewhere where i can hear your voice and potentially see what you see and hear what you're hearing and so anything that you can stick in your pocket might be a bit of a problem there but anyway i i what i keep coming back to is that i there's lots of if you gave me a magic ai that could work the way everyone who raves about AI thinks AI will someday be able to work, the form factor almost doesn't matter.

1:21:50You could put it in a potato and people would be like, I need one of those potatoes. It does everything. I just talk to it and it does stuff for me. The value of a thing that you can actually talk to and have it do things for you reliably is so huge. People will buy literally anything that would do that because it's not the potato they care about. It's the thing inside it. so i feel like this is really on sam altman and johnny can just you know fulfill his little uh desires to make a beautiful object and like it like i said it almost doesn't matter like because it's all about you know because on the flip side if he makes a beautiful thing they're like this is the best hardware i've ever seen it's a brilliant idea i'd never even thought of making a nose ring but it turns out it's great like if it comes up something no one ever thought of before and when you talk to it it behaves like the humane pin no one wants that product but on the flip not apple we owe the bottom for cheap after that right now i i i don't know i'm not sure what to make of this i i'm i find it very easy to believe that a watch is the product or a product i think that's that you can you can sell that to me pretty easy in a figurative and literal sense potentially um them them slash sam getting swept up by apple i can see a series of events where that happens but i don't know man and plus open ai is getting big i mean i know apple is gigantic but open ai is getting big i mean they're buying companies for six billion dollars they're just big in venture capital like they're they're in the phase where like they're they're not big like apple where it's a machine that produces billions of dollars of profit open ai is not there yet they're in the growth phase let's say so they have collected huge amount of investment but they are burning money like crazy, including spending$6.5 billion of their stock, not money, but stock to do this acquisition.

1:23:33So they will need to someday eventually make money, but that day is not yet. Yeah. I don't know. It's fascinating. I mean, as silly as that video was, this is very, very, very interesting. And 2026, if they meet their self-stated goal of, you know, premiering something in 2026, it's going to be an interesting time, a really, really interesting time. Did they say they would show it in 2026 or ship it? I think they said show. I think it just says next year. Like, I don't know. I think they were pretty noncommittal. There's enough wiggle room where they could announce it next year and ship it in 2027.

1:24:05But, you know, take your time, guys, because we know that the thing you are sort of hinting that you're going to make does not yet exist in the public. So wait until you have it. Yeah. But I mean, no matter what, can you imagine watching Johnny effectively competing with Apple? That would be very funny and very interesting. honestly he seems like he's embracing that like you know he gave that interview last week or whether it came out last week um where he he basically like insulted the smartphone and what he said you know he basically said like you know everything in this video he's basically said like all the platforms we use today are decades old uh form factors like that's he was taking aim right at the phone he's looking for the next uh next new thing yeah i mean even when he was at apple he was kind of bored with doing appley things because he like he basically produced some of the biggest hardware device revolutions and once you've done that you're looking to do it again you don't do it again by making more iphones yeah like i i that's why i really think this is going to be something i think this is i i'm very optimistic between johnny's seemingly renewed drive to do cool new tech and sam altman's good product sense and the amazing resources they both have at their disposal i think this could be something really really good i really hope that johnny is not just like has you know bamboozled by the promise of a thing that doesn't exist i really hope he is seeing things that i'm not seeing and i hope an open ai actually has tech that will it doesn't have to be perfect it just needs to get over that threshold i think of it like you know a million times we talked about touchscreens and the iphone touchscreens exist for decades and people hated them and it was you just had to make them just good enough where you passed over the threshold and if it goes from this annoying interface that no one wants to use to like oh my god this is the best thing i've ever seen and the original iphone was not perfect by a long shot but it crossed that threshold and we're just waiting for ai that you can talk to without a screen and a keyboard i don't know a way to conceptually this we're waiting for that to cross the threshold it's already crossed the threshold for like this can do tons of useful things uh you know for people in its current incarnations that's why these are popular companies we've talked about all the time and limited applications for a thing that you wanted to do it's better than it's ever been like google was just showing off their uh you know real-time translation or whatever like the lm was originally made as a thing like the original lm paper basically was talking about doing translation from like you know one language to another like human language is spanish to english or whatever fast forward to 2025 at google.io and they're showing the seventh revision of their thing where you talk and it translates in real time with like a human sounding voice to a person at the other end like that was science fiction uh decades ago and now it's a real thing so like it can sneak up on you and that's that's current technology things exist now but everybody wants you know what's the thing plan a birthday party for my five-year-old here's the budget go make all the arrangements go to all the things like or not even let's just say like ask it questions and have it give you truthful answers have it do what you could do if you had access to google and could turn up all the ai results look something up find some information you know put it together figure out read a couple of web pages figure out an answer go to a wikipedia page do a thing or whatever only now you don't have to do all that you just ask it a question and it gives you the answer we want a thing that does that and doesn't make up stuff and then you can maybe ask a digital stuff for you and that's the promise of something with no screen no keyboard connected to an lm that's somewhere in your body that's listening all the time that can see things yada yada yada right so i wish we had a better name for that but that's what everyone is trying to make and does not yet exist and so here we have a new new contenders entered the ring with a stacked cast johnny ive and the leader in the world of llms and yet still like i don't look at johnny he's so hopeful i'm like johnny i really hope this is real because i because i believe johnny is sincere don't entirely believe sam altman is sincere but we'll see we'll see how it goes yeah especially since you know from what it seems johnny has the a team of apple expats whereas i'm not so sure that humane and some of these other and rabbit and some of these other companies necessarily did yeah like they yeah marco mentioned the people people who have left left open ai and anthropic has a lot of good people too and there's a lot of good people from deep mind at google and like the the smarts uh for uh ai people working at the cutting edge of AI technology are spread pretty well throughout the industry even in Apple I would say that but there's a lot of good people you wouldn't know it from the from the results the companies produce but I'm saying like staffing wise I bet they have some good people on staff there too so that's not the secret sauce but yeah but Johnny Ive has has some people with experience um you know in the later years of Johnny Ive when those same people are at Apple some of the things they produce were not great but you know what there's a lot more leeway when you're entering a new product category to be fanciful and go full ios 7 on it because what are you what are you comparing it to it's not an established category you do whatever you want figure it out be bold no one else has done it yet so you are free to be full-on johnny ive unedited by anybody uh and good luck to them except potentially sam which i mean to come back to what marco was saying i'm sure johnny's gonna let sam tell him how to change his product they're such buddies i don't know man They're best friends.

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1:31:33All right, let's do some Ask ATP, and let's start with Harrison, who writes, I'm in grade 9, and I love listening to ATP. I'm about to go on a four-week residential camp with my school. I decided to send my question now because based on Ask ATP times, it could be answered while I'm away, and I will be able to listen upon my return or it'll be in a show weeks or months in the future. Clearly Harrison knows what's going on. So here's my question. What was your favorite school camp or trip and why? For me, very briefly, I went to school in a lot of different places because we were moving a lot at the time.

1:32:02And I went on a trip when I was in fifth grade and I was going to school in Naperville, Illinois, and we went to some like, I want to say it was a college campus. I couldn't tell you what it was. I couldn't tell you where it was, but we did like a night or two there, which was really fun. And then when I was in high school, I feel like I've told the story somewhere very recently, probably here. But when I was in high school, I was a member of the Future Business Leaders of America, FBLA. And this is so nerdy, FBLA, as it's known. That's why it's FBLA. I remember it from high school. And when you go to school, to high school in a little podunk state like Connecticut, and you decide that you're going to join the statewide competition for, I want to say it was called computer concepts or something like that.

1:32:45It was typically like marketing and sales and things like that, where you would like take a test or something along those lines. Well, I did one in computer concepts and guess what? I placed second in the state of Connecticut and that entitled me to go to nationals at Disney world. And so, uh, myself and a few other people, uh, and our teacher, or I think it was maybe five students and the teacher, uh, all went to Orlando and stayed in either the Swan or the Dolphin. I forget which one. And, uh, we're told, you know you're gonna be here for a couple days you'll compete i did not place at a national level um and then we'll go back to connecticut and i remember vividly that we were told by our our teacher who we all got on really well with uh we were told by our teacher hey here's the thing you need to be in the hotel if you leave the hotel you need to tell us what's going on you know you need to tell tell me where you're going etc this was in the late 90s so none of us had cell phones um we were we got that speech and let's say two o 'clock in the afternoon by three o 'clock in the afternoon, we were, I remember sitting in the back of a Volkswagen Jetta that was being driven by a former student of the same high school that we, that we were in, except he had moved down to Orlando and he was taking the rest of the people I was with to go get like cold cuts and, and sandwich bread and whatnot, because all of them came down to Walt Disney world with like 20 bucks in their pockets.

1:34:03And so they knew they weren't going to be able to eat for the three or four or five days that we were there. If we didn't turn our sink in, that we had like a little suite in the hotel. If we didn't take the sink in the like, not bar area, but like kitchen area, and turn that into a makeshift refrigerator that these idiots wouldn't have been able to eat. And so flat, you know, it's don't leave the hotel, crash. I'm in the back of a jetta driving around downtown Orlando. It was so wild and so ridiculous and so much fun. And I value that trip to this day. Marco, what about you? To nobody's surprise, who knows how much of a nerd I am.

1:34:43Computer resume. No. No, band. Band. Yep. Band camp. There it is. Oh, one time at band camp? Yep. It was nothing like American Pie. I went to band camp all four summers preceding my four years of high school, and it was such a good time every time. Each time it was about a week, i believe maybe a little you know a little less than a week and we would go up to like one of those you know like campground kind of things you know like i guess a couple hours away in ohio um and you know and i was in the drum section so we would like you know figure out all the all the cadences for the year and we'd practice them and teach all the freshmen or i was the freshman i was learning them um that was like when we got our like when you're in the drum section you kind of move around to different different drum types as you get older so like that was like you know we're learning the new you know oh now this year i'm on snare drum this year i'm on quads like you know so you learn the new instruments you get to flirt with all the people that you want to flirt with um you get you know you're like it's sleepaway camp so it's all the fun in that um it it was a great time every time i absolutely loved it definitely far and away band camp john so i'll first give my least favorite okay trip just because it's uh when i when you say school trip This is literally the first one that I think of.

1:36:05In fifth grade, my elementary school took us all to go on a whale watch off Montauk Point. Oh, you've talked about this and you were like sick as hell. Yes, and that's where I learned that I get seasick. Oh, no. That's not an ideal time to learn it because whale watches, if you've ever been on one, are long and they're not going to turn that boat around just because you're puking your guts out. I threw up 16 times on that boat. i love that you still remember this 40 years later and then also on the bus ride back home i still remember what the ground looked like when i got off the boat after being stuck on it i also remember that it was cold and rainy and they wouldn't let me back in the cabin of the boat because i was puking my brains out and i was cold and i had short sleeve shirt and shorts on and yeah that's not the great not the best way to find out that you could violently see sick i did break that record later in life as an adult with the flu but it stood for many decades i get seasick i'll never go on a well watch again uh it's you know anyway so there you go fifth grade well watch no good uh other people had fun though uh anyway my best my best school trip and i think i might have mentioned this before was uh uh it's part of the part of the way they used to do school back in the late 80s and early 90s was they had a gnt program which was not gin and tonic but it was gifted and talented and so they would separate the nerds from the rest of the population for maximum bullying potential on the bright side the gifted and talented people got to go on a trip i believe it was between junior and senior year uh somewhere in there uh and it was supposed to be like someplace like scientific where we were going to like study some environmental thing or like you know it's a high school trip right to take a bunch of high school students and take them somewhere for a week and yeah maybe there's some science was done and some learning happened but it was mostly like marco's band camp anyway where we ended up going like i forget how it was kind of like a committee where the teacher kind of knew where the places we could potentially go and i think they made it seem like that the kids were like had input in it but for all i know it was preordained but we ended up going to newfoundland in canada it's the first time i've been out of the country uh and we were there for like a week or maybe uh nine or ten days or whatever and we slept in we spent uh some time in uh like a day or two when we got there in like a college dorm then we were in like a campground then we were in tents uh and yeah it's just i mean it's really it's like a canadian version of marco's man camp i'm sure with a bunch of hormonal teenagers out there in the wilderness uh at one point we were trudging through the canadian wilderness in pants that were absorbing all the damp uh cold water from the bushes that we were trudging our way through and we came around the corner and there was a moose standing right in front of us like far enough away that you could like practically reach out a stick and poke it and we were all so startled we just came around the corner and believe they're huge they're way bigger than you think they are and we just all stood there with our mouths open and the moose looked at us and took off into the woods and we're like i cannot believe that happened we went on a whale watch i went on another i had no choice i had to go on another whale watch to end we went to go see icebergs and i was also seasick but i managed not to puke in a herculean effort of embarrassment of standing in just the right part of the boat and bending my knees to try to keep my head level incredibly embarrassing but i didn't puke i'm proud of that uh i ate an entire one of those weird silver fish heads bones and all i'm sure someone from newfoundland can tell me what it is but i've long since forgotten you ate the bones or you they were just they were present you eat them no you eat the whole it's like it's maybe like the size of like the length of a pencil and like maybe three or four times is why it's kind of a flat silvery fish and eat the whole thing oh my god okay that it's not dramatic that dramatic when bones when fish have small bones you just eat the whole fish i don't but okay well anyway i i just to give clarity why i remember that i did not eat seafood for my entire childhood i still basically don't eat seafood i shrimp and calamari but like other than that i don't really eat seafood at all and at that point i don't think i'd ever eaten an entire fish of any kind so that was a little bit uh exciting but yeah that's that was surely the most memorable one it kills me that uh you know camera phones had not been invented yet i did have i believe a codec disc camera if you know what the quality of the photos are like from that and it's just i wish i had so many more pictures i envy my kids they have these amazing cameras with them all the time they never take pictures i'm like you are going to regret this take more pictures of the people you're with and the places you go you think you're not going to care what like the the back room at your first job looks like and all the people you work with but someday you'll want to know and they take zero pictures and so anyway i have a few pictures of that but i wish i had taken more no one would have got a picture of that moose though again we were all stunned.

1:41:01So you have Newfoundland. It rhymes with understand in case you ever want to know how to pronounce it. Wow. That was way more than I expected. So thank you, Harrison. He's back from his trip, by the way. This has been in here for a while. Sorry, Harrison. Not as much time as it usually takes, though. So I'm proud of us in that regard. Yeah, he's still a kid. He's still a kid, but well put. Josh Kincaid writes, what's the significance of the tire markings on the bootleg feeds cover art? John. So when I saw this question, I was like, yeah we should explain that and then so i pulled up the bootleg cover art um can people see the bootleg cover if they're not members we'll put it in the show notes i put a link to it if you don't know what it looks like but it's a it's the the wheel from a mac pro uh and the wheel has like a tire markings like on the sidewall of the tire on your car tire there's a bunch of markings on it so we put that on the side of the mac pro wheel and so i'm like oh yeah we should put this explanation in so i pulled up the picture i looked at it and i realized i no longer remember what them i know we had meaning behind them because i picked out the meaning of every single one of these things in here uh and i'd forgotten but thank goodness for the slack scroll back i looked it up and i said we need to put this in a show because if i've already forgotten this i need it i need it burned into audio so that at some point in the future i can say oh we talked about what those markings mean to remind myself casey so here you go i'm with you on this i'm not remembering thank you however long ago we made the show you remember this i remembered every one of them i I didn't remember all of them.

1:42:25I mean, I remember any of them. Who do you really think I remembered even one? Come on. I don't know. You remembered the, the, the name and face of the person who drove Marco around the BMW driving school. I have no idea. And your boat trip. Thank you very much. Where you puked your guts up. I remember that. Yeah. I've told that story both times. Anyway. So on real car tires, there is a meaning for all of those little letters and numbers. Each one corresponds something. We'll put a link in the show notes to something that shows you like what the numbers mean. um and so i tried to pick realistic values for the bootleg thing so the first is the p prefix if you're starting from like sort of left to right going around the wheel clockwise and that is a p metric tire or a tire used for passenger cars and i felt like that was appropriate and most most tires you see are going to be car tires even though this is a mac pro wheel or whatever um there's also lt for light truck and hl for high load rating those didn't seem to apply to a mac pro even though it is a big computer um so the next thing is the the tire width in millimeters so i got someone when we did this i got i asked around on probably mastodon back then i forget can someone measure the mac pro tires because real tires have like you know 255 millimeter for like a big sports car tire or whatever 210 millimeter for like a regular skinny car tire right can someone measure the actual mac pro wheels and they're about 40 millimeters so it says p40 so it's a 40 millimeter width the next number is the aspect ratio which i think what is like the the ratio of the sidewall height to the width or something yep um anyway that's 25 percent which is again we're relying on people send us pictures like holding like a ruler up to the mac pro wheel so it's p40 slash 25 25 aspect ratio b for rigid sidewall which is the same as the tread material which seems appropriate for the mac pro wheels uh a two inch rim diameter and a 32 load index so a typical car tire load index range is from 70 to 126 i couldn't look up what all those numbers name but it's like each number corresponds to how much load they can endure i'm like well the mac pro wheels let's say they're a 32 it's a round number it's a power of two maybe it's a little high for load rating for the mac pro wheels but you know they are 700 so so maybe they really do have a great load rating so it's p40 slash 25 b2 32 and then z which is the speed rating and z which marco knows about because i made a big stink stink about that when we were in germany because we were trying to hustle back to Munich at something like 140 miles an hour.

1:44:52And it occurred to me, oh, wait, these are winter tires. We should probably make sure that they can handle 140 miles an hour. And I basically made Marco pull over so I could quickly look at the side of the tire. And I think they were Z-rated winter tires, which is preposterous. It's Germany for you. Yep. And that was, by the way, that was when I learned that tires had speed ratings. Like I had no idea. Well, it's a good thing you have Casey with you to tell you the tires have speed ratings and to find the battery in your car um but anyway so yeah the mac pro is fast so of course it gets a z rating so that's the the meaning of p40 slash 25 b2 32z then it says unedited live stream and then also there's usually a maximum tire pressure printed that's not the pressure you're supposed to inflate your tires to if you want to find that number look at maybe the door sill on the driver's side door but it does tell you what the maximum air pressure you're ever supposed to put in these tires is.

1:45:43And this one says ADPSI. And the reason it says that is because ATPSI. Get it? ADPSI? ATPSI. So there you go. That's what all the letters and numbers on the bootleg show art mean. You can't see them at small sizes, but if you get a podcast client, they can zoom it in and you will see those numbers printed there. And then finally for this week, a friend of mine, Matt Richardson, who does incredible Disney-related content. Matt actually works for Raspberry Pi, but his hobby is doing Disney-related stuff. I'll put a link to Matt's Instagram in the show notes, because if you are a Disney person, you absolutely should be following Matt.

1:46:21But anyways, Matt writes, I'm a Canon shooter and I've always splurged on good glass, but for travel, those lenses are starting to feel so heavy, so I don't take the camera with me as much. Is that always going to be the trade-off? Is there good glass that's also light? I'm not sure if I should switch to cheaper or lighter zooms or maybe stick with good glass and get like a 35 millimeter prime. So let's start with Marco. What's the right answer here? It depends on what tradeoffs you're willing to make. So first of all, if you need long reach, like you need like, you know, a good zoom reach, you're going to be looking at pretty heavy lenses unless you want them to be very low quality.

1:46:58The good thing is, you know, what Matt said, you know, at the end, like maybe stick with a glass and get like a 35 millimeter prime. That is very close to pancake lens territory. Most pancake lenses are approximately somewhere around the 40 millimeter range. I would suggest when traveling, if you're okay with that perspective and that being like your only perspective on the camera, I would say absolutely get whatever the pancake lens is for your camera system and try traveling with just that on the camera. Because when you compare the pancake lenses to any other like decent quality lens, they're shockingly smaller.

1:47:35And it radically changes how the camera feels. And, you know, just not only in terms of like sheer weight and space in the bag, but also just how it handles in your hands. Like pancake lenses generally weigh approximately nothing compared to any other lens you can put in a camera. And so it radically changes how the camera feels. It feels much lighter and much more nimble. so that is i would say the the budget option is get a pink because pink lenses also they tend to be like you know f 2.8 or similar like they don't tend to be like super fast primes um but they tend to be very small very light and usually pretty inexpensive depending on your system now the that's that's the the responsible option the irresponsible option oh this is the marco option excellent what makes camera lenses big and heavy often not always but often part of that is it has to account for like the distance between the lens and the sensor on the on the mount and the format that you're using it on if you get a compact camera that has it has a built in lens, you can usually achieve the same quality and speed in terms of aperture as a much larger lens on a detachable system.

1:48:54I'm talking about things like the Fuji X100, the Leica Q, the old Sony RX1 series. I don't know if they're still doing that one, but the Leica Q is probably the flagship in this market. The new Fuji GFX100 RF, which I happen to have gotten that's an interchangeable lens camera which one isn't that interesting no i thought you were talking about the one that's like a solid block of aluminum not that one right oh no that's that's the sigma thing no no i'm not sorry okay yeah so which one did you buy the the fuji gfx 100 rf you talked about that isn't that the medium format thing or no yes it's basically a medium format x100 and it's i just i've only had it for a couple days so far it's amazing so far We'll see how it goes.

1:49:39But that kind of thing of like, you know, when you look at the size of something like an X100 or the GFX100 RF or a Leica Q, like when you see like how big of a lens is needed to achieve that aperture and that focal length on that size sensor, it's always much smaller on those bodies than it is on detachable lens systems. So if what you're optimizing for is small size for travel and small and light for travel, something like that could be an option at the high end. I mean obviously you're talking about buying a whole separate camera. These are often very high-end models, so they can be pretty expensive.

1:50:19But that might be worth looking into if you want a fancier or an upgrade pick. But what you should start with for now, if you don't want to get a whole new camera for thousands of dollars, is get that pancake lens for your system. it's a fantastic option and you will find it so compelling that i think you will start bringing the camera on more trips so this isn't really what matt is asking and i'm sure he knows this anyway but i'll just say it for the listeners um i'm in a similar situation where i don't want to be carrying around these big lenses and my advice for travel is the way to deal with this trade-off is to get a smaller sensor um i'm sitting here on my desk with my full frame camera with a 24 to 70 lens on it and then i have my ap ap sc uh size sensor on my other camera and it has a 70 to 350 lens on it and the 70 to 350 lens is smaller on the ap sc camera than the 24 to 70 is on the full frame so for people who don't speak speak camera speak uh there is a very small zoom range lens on my on my big sensor camera that only goes from 24 millimeters to 70 millimeters.

1:51:28And then there is a huge zoom range that goes from 70 to 350, which is a big range. 350 is way zoomed in. Like if you can look at, I guess people are starting to learn millimeter numbers. If you look at the camera app on your iPhone, even if you don't have a real camera, they put like a little millimeter equivalents that you can see 70 to 350. That's a pretty far zoom. And if you've got a 70 to 350 on a full frame camera, even if you've got the cheapest one you could find, that's going to be huge and heavy. So what I'm getting at is the lenses for APS-C sensor cameras are so much smaller and lighter for the quote unquote same lens, even the same quality.

1:52:05Like, yes, you are sacrificing by having a smaller sensor, but if you're on vacation and you're not doing everything at night, maybe you're in a sunny place. There should be plenty of light for an APS-C sensor. You know, you lose some pixels, but like it's, it's worth it for how much smaller the lenses can be. And I know you've got a Canon thing. The Canon makes some kind of small, I don't know the Canon line or whatever, but Mark was introducing the new camera thing. So I'm going to throw it in there too. Get a camera with a smaller sensor because all the lenses are smaller. And then you can pick from whatever brand you want.

1:52:35Lots of every brand makes small sensor cameras. If you want to stay with interchangeable lens cameras, not detachable, interchangeable lens cameras, get one with a smaller sensor. They're like modern APS-C cameras. take amazing photos you will not miss the 61 megapixels from your giant thing or whatever because like marco was saying like there's no getting around like you can't you can't fight physics you either if you want an interchangeable lens camera and you want it to be full frame those lenses are going to be huge and yeah you can go for the pancake or the prime or whatever but like if you need it's like oh but i need lots of long reach well what are you going to do like it is what it is but you can get around that by getting a camera with a smaller sensor and yes the the cameras that aren't interchangeable lens where the thing is built in they can be smaller and lighter but then you can't change you can't change the lens on them so i hope you like whatever range that lens is giving you and i feel like it especially like if you want to keep the size and weight down you're going to get better quality from let's say an aps-c camera with a pancake lens on it than you would from that same focal distance in a non-interchangeable lens camera of the same size and weight because the the good non-interchangeable lens cameras are either horrendously expensive like the ones marco was describing and sometimes they're surprisingly big they're not as big as they would be if they had interchangeable lens but since they're so expensive it's not going to be something that's small light they're going to be like high quality and actually pretty big so that's my advice look at apsc if you don't travel that frequently this is a good um consideration to maybe rent cameras uh like this like you can go to lens rentals that's what i always did in the past and like you know you can you can actually rent one of these small compact fancier cameras if you want to or you know some some lens that you wouldn't normally buy you know for for constant use but maybe you're maybe you go on like one trip a year that it might be useful for you know renting is an option it can be a little expensive if you do it more than rarely but it's it's an option do it to audition the camera you think about buying like so look look at a bunch of let's say you decide you're going to do like a non-interchangeable lens camera narrow down to a model or two than rent the one you're thinking of buying as sort of a last check yeah i would also say don't go smaller in size in sensor size than apsc um you can get like the super zoom cameras that are smaller i actually did i rented uh one or two of those i i tried them here and there um like the sony uh rx100 series is one of these what i have found is that they are not better enough than an iphone to be worth carrying you know unless you have very specialized needs that they fit for some reason, but don't go with smaller sensors than APS-C if you want it to be better than an iPhone.

1:55:14Within the APS-C family, if you really want a very, very small but very high quality APS-C sensor camera, look at the Ricoh GR3X. It is very high quality for a very small camera. It is almost pocketable. Not quite, unless you have big pockets, but it's an almost pocket-sized camera. It's shocking how much quality it has in such a small body. And it has image stabilization in there, which I don't know how they did that. But when you look at the challenges, how Fuji takes forever to add image stabilization to their small cameras. And Ricoh came out with the GR3X, and it's built in, and it's really great.

1:55:54We have one in the family. I got it for TIFF a while back. It's a great camera overall, but it's very, very small. The only reason I don't use the Ricoh GR3X more is because the handling of it is very small for me and my fingers and my hands. And it's like I don't like the way it handles. It's like too small for me. But if I want to have a good camera with me to be able to capture good images at the smallest size possible, nothing comes close to that one. But I personally like the larger offerings from Fuji better just in terms of handling and in terms of how they render like JPEGs and stuff like that.

1:56:29But anyway, yeah, definitely look at APS-C or larger sensors. Renting is a good idea. And definitely the pancake lens category if you don't mind the loss of Zoom. All right. Thanks to our sponsors this week. HelloFresh, DeleteMe, and Squarespace. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atv.fm slash join. One of the many perks of membership is all those awesome specials we were talking about earlier. Another perk of membership is even more exclusive content, ATP Overtime. This is our weekly bonus topic. Every week, we talk for usually like, you know, another 15 or 20 minutes on some bonus topic called ATP Overtime.

1:57:07This week, that topic will be, as John put it, meanwhile in Europe, what's going on with the EU and the DMA and stuff like that. That'll be this week's Overtime. Thank you so much. You can join us, atp.fm slash join. Thanks. We'll talk to you next week. Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin Cause it was accidental Oh, it was accidental John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental It was accidental And you can find the show notes at atp.fm And if you're into Mastodon You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T, Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse.

1:58:13It's accidental, they didn't mean to. Accidental, tech podcast, so long.

1:58:28CarPlay Ultra was announced, kind of. The next generation CarPlay has been now deemed CarPlay Ultra. There was a press release about it, and Top Gear did a video review of it. Well, they also did a written review, but the video review was very well done. I want to say it was a little less than 20 minutes long. But it does a really, really good job of showing you top to bottom how CarPlay Ultra works. this is not something that I need in my life, but I think I would like it if I had it. Um, I, the basic gist is the car actually will render its own stuff like the tachometer, the speedometer, um, a lot of the error, uh, uh, indicators and things like that.

1:59:12The car will render them itself, but it's doing it in a visual language that Apple provides. And so when you initially connect to CarPlay Ultra, one of the things that happens is Apple downloads a whole bunch of like assets and resources and whatnot into the car such that whenever you turn that car on henceforth, it will actually use Apple's UI, I believe, even before it connects to your iPhone. And then it will obviously use regular traditional CarPlay as well as have this new Ultra stuff on top of it. And the Ultra stuff will integrate with the onboard infotainment for things like the backup camera, for perhaps unique settings that they couldn't really figure out a good way to do in the CarPlay world.

1:59:58If you control HVAC or your air conditioning using the car, like if the car has dials, it will be reflected in CarPlay. it looks really really well done that being said some of the gauge clusters that you can choose between i like that they let you choose between different gauge clusters i like that they work with the car manufacturers in order to build at least one or two different gauge clusters so the aston martin you know looked like an aston martin in the corner of the of the speedometer it said i don't know something like hand built in britain or whatever the case may be or maybe it said maybe it said it'll fail in two months isn't that how that word no never mind i think i had that wrong it was hand built in britain hey oh uh but anyways uh the point is uh you know they work with the car manufacturer to do these things but then they also have like a purely apple interpretation uh where you can have like one of the dashboards was or gauge clusters was a bunch of like horizontal progress bars and that represents speed engine rpms etc it's really really interesting and i don't think i will ever buy a car well you know asterisk whatever i don't think i'll ever buy a car without carplay regular carplay i don't think i would go out of my way to get a car with carplay ultra but i think i would really like it if i had it uh john what do you think about this so we talked about this uh much more extensive discussion of the what was then called next gen carplay the next gen carplay architecture uh in episode 593 right after wwdc last year but next gen car play was actually introduced i think it was wwc 2022 maybe i think that's right yeah it's been a while like with because they announced it and like we didn't hear anything about it and then they waited from from 2022 23 2024 they like re-announced it but then they had sessions on it wwc so we really got the nitty-gritty detail that like all the questions we had were essentially answered but at that point no car company had actually shipped it apple kept saying here are our partners porsche is going to do it and aston martin's going to do it and like the list of partners is very long but since 2022 it was like okay who's is anyone ever going to use this thing and now aston martin has and just to refresh with the questions that we had from before and the answers that we got at technical depth in 2024 when you get into one of these cars there you don't need an iphone like it everything there's you know there's a instrument cluster in front of you there's a screen there's all this stuff the car has all its own interface if you don't own an iPhone.

2:02:26So you don't need an iPhone to do this. And if you don't have an iPhone, don't worry, you're not going to see any of this crap, right? So what that means is that anyone who uses CarPlay Ultra, any car company, they have to make a full interface for their car because they can't assume that everybody has an iPhone. But if you have an iPhone and you get into the car and you... pair it and initialize it and say yes, I want to use CarPlay Ultra. Then essentially every screen in that car is covered with CarPlay stuff. And as Casey noted, it's not just all projected from your phone. There's a bunch of stuff that the car itself is projecting because you have to make it so that when you get in, like the screens can light up and, you know, like you don't have to wait for your car to connect to see your speedometer, for example.

2:03:11Right. So the car is doing this stuff. But the thing is CarPlay Ultra, the product gets to cover all of those screens. And part of the technology they have is that the sort of quote unquote native car interface can punch through that interface for regulatory reasons and for practical reasons. The regulatory reasons that you got to have like the the warning lights in whatever jurisdiction says you need to have these warning lights have to be visible and you have to show this like that's all sort of the quote unquote native car interface. And that punches through the CarPlay interface, which sometimes doesn't look great.

2:03:40even the aston martin it's like there's there's very strict regulations about what like the the fuel gauge or the oil light or the not the fuel gauge but like there's the warning lights do have lots of regulations around them they kind of have to be there and they have to be on at a certain point so those punch through and they don't always match the rest of the interface because those you can't restyle as easily uh and then things like the the backing up camera the 360 camera and the aston martin the thing that controlled like the seat massaging that was a punch through of the native interface punching through the apple interface and then around all of that is apple's thing some of it projected from the phone on like sort of the main you know car play screens and then the instrument cluster stuff that's downloaded into the thing and the question was always like who's ever going to do this who's going to basically do a full interior of their car because you have to you have to do because not everyone has an iphone do a full interior design for your car software and then allow people with an iphone to cover all of that with an interface that you, in cooperation with Apple, design to be a blend of Aston Martin or whatever your company is and Apple's aesthetic.

2:04:45And they talked to the nice Aston Martin designer and he put a brave face on it and saying, oh, we love this or whatever. But it's like, if you're a car designer, like, do you want to work with Apple to design an interface that is part Apple, part Aston Martin? I don't think you do. I think you just want it to be Aston Martin. and Apple should get what it needs to get for its apps to display. But the instrument cluster, what value is Apple adding there? But Aston Martin has done it. So we'll see how the, finally there is a car. I mean, they're not going to sell a lot of these. It's not a high volume model, but I, the questions still we had of a CarPlay Ultra are no longer about how it works.

2:05:22And now we're about, is this a thing that people want? Is this a thing that car makers want? I mean, obviously Apple was able to make it happen with at least one car maker after, you know, three years of trying. so kudos for apple a car is going to ship in very low volumes to very small number of customers but how many of those aston martin owners will choose to use this i did what they didn't say is if you have an iphone can you do carplay but not ultra i think the answer is no like what if i just want carplay on the middle screen where i can just see my music and maps and stuff can i do that and still have the aston martin native instrument cluster i think the answer is no which is kind of a shame um but anyway this this is a good we'll have a better market test if the other car makers and their supposed list of people who are going to support this comes out like hyundai was on that list and you know other like large volume brands that make affordable cars i don't know about this i you know we can see past discussion just seems like something that appeals to apple and maybe appeals to people who really dislike the aesthetic of their car and prefer the aesthetic of apple they want they want the apple look because they think their car is ugly or unappealing or not as nice but and car play is the culture ultra is extremely flexible and able to be modified and themed and changed or whatever to look more like the other cars but in the end it it looks like because it's supposed to look like a blend between apple and the car company i don't really want apple blended at all with my instrument cluster because i don't see them as a car company i want them i want apple to show me an app interface because i see them as an app company and there are lots of apps for their platform like that makes sense to me but anyway i i it's not i'm not excited about carplay ultra let's say that uh and i don't think aston martin is excited about carplay ultra either but they are a trusted partner of apple so here it is i think it actually looks really good me too so you know it is worth pointing out there was a really good segment on the verge cast about this a couple days ago um so i would say if you're if you want to hear more about this listen to that because they did a really good coverage of it um i think the you know obviously when you look at what apple debuted and what we talked about back in 2022 about like their next generation carplay this seems like it is a little bit of a step back from that um this is a little bit more like we're going to compromise and we're going to have some stuff designed by us some stuff rendered by our phone not everything and not everything um you know some we're still going to have some of your ui show through when you feel like it uh or when you refuse to you know give it to us but they announced that in 2024 the punch through stuff was there when we talked about it in episode 593 right so but like you know so anyway this this is a bit of a walk back from what they did you know a few years back or what they demoed but could get apparently nobody on board with i think this is a more approachable version of it that for the automakers but it's very clear like when you watch the video and when you kind of you know listen to some of the details here it's very clear like apple has to work very closely with the automaker to get this done and so i don't think this is ever going to be a common thing uh i mean maybe they could work with like toyota but you know i doubt it i think it's much more likely they're going to do a few boutique integrations like this with the aston martin um and i think that i think it will mostly fizzle i don't i don't see this becoming the the common case that being said it did appeal to me more in the aston martin demo and like what we were seeing there it appealed to be more there than the original version they shut off in 2022 for the next gen carplay because ultimately i don't want the entire dashboard and instrument cluster of my car to look like an iphone forever apple designs things nicely also apple's design is really boring and safe and bland and i don't want my car to be boring and safe and bland to always look the same no matter what car i have i like the personality that cars bring you know sometimes it's not as nice of a user experience in certain ways but i don't want everything to always be the same like ios's design is really stripped down and safe Like when it showed like navigating through those setting screens, I just wanted to die.

2:09:55I'm like, you're in an Aston Martin and you're navigating through these like big gray table rows. Like that's just so boring and ugly. And then occasionally you have Aston Martin's own UI punch through to show a totally incongruous art style top view of the seats. Yeah, exactly. Like it's just, it's not, it's nicer in some ways. And certain parts of it I did think looked nice. but I don't want every car to be like this and that's a good thing because not every car will be like this and not even close I think this is going to be a very rarely implemented thing but it's a fun it's a fun thing it's it's a unique thing and overall like I do like CarPlay as a whole but I think what CarPlay is today and every other car which is a rectangle the phone projects onto the screen, that's fine.

2:10:50I don't need CarPlay to be more than that. Having more integration with that is maybe nice. Like, you know, one of the nice things about this is not necessarily that it has to take over every screen in the car. But one of the nice things about CarPlay Ultra as shown here is that by having more integration with the car, you can have things like, for instance, the climate control, like the status, like the temperature and everything, that can be displayed on the CarPlay home screen. like next to your CarPlay stuff. That kind of integration, that could be nice here and there depending on your car model and how it's displaying stuff otherwise.

2:11:25That could be nice. So I think this has a lot of potential to be like nice little upgrades here and there but I cannot imagine most automakers agreeing to it. That's why I was asking if you could just do the main CarPlay screen because then you would get the integration where you can see your AC control or the current temperature and stuff but you didn't have to say, okay, but take over every screen in the car including the instrument cluster. Right, exactly. But again, I don't know if that's even an option. Yeah, I don't know. I also think CarPlay could really use a redesign. CarPlay, again, it looks really bland and boring and kind of old and stale.

2:11:56It has looked the way it looks for its entire life, basically. Like, it hasn't ever really gotten a redesign. So I'm curious to see, like, you know, as Apple allegedly redesigns, like, all of its OSs that we'll see in a couple of weeks, if the rumors are true. I wonder if any of that gets to CarPlay and how that affects this announcement. like how that how it's going to look like do you want apple to redesign software and all of a sudden your entire car looks different like i i had that with tesla it sucked like that was a terrible experience to have your car all of a sudden get redesigned and all of a sudden you can't find your defroster anymore like so i i think this is fun this is interesting i'm curious to see where else it goes and i'm glad that apple is putting a lot of work into carplay and it seems like i'm glad that they are willing to walk back some of the ambition and hubris they have with that original design to actually work with automakers instead of just fighting them with everything.

2:12:54So we'll see if anybody actually ever, you know, adopts this in a car that I ever want to own. Although if I end up having to buy an Aston Martin to test out my app in CarPlay. You'll suffer through. I guess I'll get that DB12 for my work. It's a work expense. Sorry, it only comes on the SUVs. No, it doesn't. So far, so far. So far, it's just on this one SUV. Who would buy that SUV? Who says, I want an Aston Martin and looks at that and says, I want that? The best-selling Porsche is their SUV. Never forget. Yeah, but Porsche is at least a little bit more of a common brand and a little bit less expensive.

2:13:27You say they're sportier than Aston Martin is what I'm getting at. But if you're buying an Aston Martin, you're buying an iconic look more than you're buying raw, sheer numbers. I would almost guarantee you that they sell more of their stupid SUV. Oh, God. That's so sad. That's the world we live in. I agree. um here's from nine to five mac here is supposedly the list of car makers that had pledged to support what was then known as next gen car play from 2022 land rover lincoln audi volvo honda nissan ford porsche jaguar acura polestar infinity and renault uh and mercedes was on the list but mercedes has since come out and said ah no hell no we're not doing that we talked about the mercedes ceo saying we do not want apple taking over our cars and obviously aston martin has actually shipped it even though they weren't on the list so from this 2022 list how many of these people are still pledging to do support what is now known as carplay ultra we don't know i'm not sure apple is saying but uh yeah this this it's been a long time for a single car company to actually produce a product with this because things happen slowly in the car industry uh and it's not a very good test bed because so few of these will sell and it's not representative of the overall market but yeah i kind of agree with marco that i don't want all my cars to look like apple stuff mostly because i don't think i don't particularly like how for example any of the apple instrument cluster things work and one of the things i choose a car based on is whether i like the interior and the software and in some ways carplay can help like oh i love everything about this car except for the inside but except for the screens but i don't have to worry about that because when i get them with my iPhone they'll all be replaced with apple thing and i like that but i would prefer to choose a car where I like everything about it as it comes out of the box and then just let me put a rectangle on the screen with my car with my phone but we are all at the whims of the market as I well know as someone who prefers uh stick shift sedans uh sometimes the world moves on without you