642: A Rebuilding Year

32:12Reference acknowledged. I don't think so, but we certainly can find out. No, they're not. We'll hear from tens of people about it. Right. So anyway, this is – actually, let me back up. So I am not a particular fan of U2. I wouldn't say I actively dislike them, but I would self-describe as someone who will listen and not be grumbly about it, but I never, ever, ever seek out U2, which is in contrast to John, and jump in and interrupt whenever you're ready, but I would say this is or was at least your favorite band. Is that fair to say? I would say I would list it as my all-time favorite band. And that encompasses the fact that right now I'm probably more excited by like the new Churches album or something, but my all-time favorite band is U2.

32:55and john you cut your teeth on what was the name of the lyrics site what was the official name of it the u2 lyrics archive very imaginative yeah well there you go it's like the accidental tech podcast all right anyways no there's no the on our show how many times i need to get like a pr a brand marketing person just follow casey around smacking the the out of his mouth it's just accidental tech podcast it's three words it begins with the letter a there's no the are we really doing this i just want to be clear i want to get it on the record on the show kind of like the one do the markings mean on the bootleg artwork just for the record as seen on the website the show is accidental tech podcast three words yes here in apple podcast commentary uh we don't use definite article i was about to say every time i hear you say the iphone john i'm going to correct you from now on that's you know i'm just saying what it is apple can say what their thing is i don't have to listen to that but i feel like you as a member of the show should be on board with the name is you're kind of like the people who you're like the people who work at apple who say we believe iPhone is whatever.

33:52That's you. You have to do that. I see moving along. So I am not a particular fan of you too. Uh, I have no particular opinion about Bono as an individual. Like he seems like a decent guy. He certainly donated a pile of money and worked hard for charity. So I respect that. Uh, in this hour and a half long thing was a just, well, it was a single person stage show, I guess where it's him telling stories of his childhood that he thinks are relevant with occasional performances of stripped down U2 songs. And I went into it being like, I don't know about this at all. And the first few minutes I was like, wow, I really don't know about this at all.

34:32I get that Bono was influential and whatever, but really an hour and a half about listen to me in my life says the man with like 500 podcast episodes, but that's neither here nor there. And the opening of this thing was actually him acknowledging that exact fact was like, who here wants to hear this guy talk about himself? Right. And, and I was not in at all in the beginning of it, but I have to concede. I found it surprisingly moving and I really enjoyed it. And I, I was not expecting that whatsoever. I really came in. I am with as open a mind as I could given my priors, but I was expecting to be like, well, that was interesting, but a waste of my time.

35:12And I don't think it was a waste of my time. I actually enjoyed it. however you and i did not watch the same movie because you watched the 2d version i watched the immersive version so before i talk about the differences i'd like to hear your perspective on just the the movie itself and and i presume how much you enjoyed it well you mentioned this is the longest like immersive thing that apple's put out but this was kind of like you know a nolan batman movie it wasn't all immersive right like some parts were imax and some parts weren't that's right and i want to explore that more later but first i'd prefer if you don't mind to get a feel of what you thought of it in general.

35:43Yeah, I always plan to watch this eventually, but here's the thing. As an extremely big U2 fan, I suspected that there would be nothing in this. This is based on a one-man show, which is based on a book, which is based on the person, which is based on the history of the band. I suspected there would be nothing in this thing that I have not heard before. I am kind of an obsessive person. When I first got into U2, I was in middle school. I think I've said this story before. I got everything that I could on them. I went to the school library and took out the microfiches for all the old issues of like time magazine and newspaper articles i read everything there is to read about this band and that's when i was in school and it just continued on and when with the age of the internet so like i don't think there's a story bono could tell that i haven't heard before or like you know i know about everything that was a revelation to you i heard seven versions of now here's the thing i went in this hoping maybe maybe this would be like stuff that I hadn't heard before like that finally he's ready to go delve into more private detail and the example I always pull out is uh the Andre Agassi autobiography I'm a big Andre Agassi fan and he put out a book called Open it was aptly named not just because of the tennis pun and the open era and all that other stuff but also because he opened up his life in a way that was extremely unflattering to himself that is rare that someone who's rich and famous will write about themselves and say you'd never heard any of this stuff because it is it is the worst of me like you know only people who ever do that is like someone who you know like i don't know like rob lowe or something you know becomes a robert downey jr i forget which one of these people has just become like a womanizing drug addicted alcoholic and flames out in the 80s and everybody knows it and then they get older and they write a tell-all book it's like we already know all this happened to you like we it's not a surprise that you were on drugs and womanizing doing terrible things.

37:28What we don't get is, hey, you think of me as this great famous person and probably haven't heard anything bad about me, but really I was in a bad place. And let me tell you how terrible things were. That's the book Andre Agassi opened. He is 100 % open in an extremely unflattering way about himself. And I'm not saying people have any obligation to do that. Celebrities have their right to keep whatever they want to themselves. But very often celebrities say, well, I want to write about myself. But when you're writing about yourself, you're like, maybe I'll leave out the the worst things that I've ever done, you know?

38:00Maybe I'll leave out things that no one knows about. If there's already a story about me doing this thing, maybe I'll tell that story because everyone kind of knows, but now they get to hear my side of it or whatever. But if you've never heard about this other thing that I did, I'm not going to mention it. And so Bono's show here is stories that he's told before. The amount of himself that he's willing to put out there is the same amount he's always been. And again, there's no reason he needs to put out any of this. He could have kept it all entirely to himself. He doesn't owe the public anything about his life, but he chose to say, I'm going to tell you about myself in this book and in this stage show.

38:31And what he tells you is theatrically performed versions of stories and things that he's told before. I'm very familiar with him as a character and as a performer. I was impressed with how well the old guy, after all he's gone through, I mean, he mentioned all the surgery and everything, which I think was many years ago now. but anyway he's he's still doing pretty good like in various times on tours his his voice has failed him because he especially in the beginning did not sing the quote-unquote right right way and i think he still doesn't uh but he's got pretty good pipes for an old dude uh who's the rocky i like where he brags about himself that the the heart doctor said he had 130 of the expected lung capacity for someone at his age i'm like well he does sing for a living so that tracks but um and then you know like you said the stripped down versions of songs um not really that big of a fan of the stripped down things and theatrically i like how they incorporated them into the show but anyway it was fine like i wasn't super impressed by it maybe if you've never heard all this stuff or didn't know anything about bono it would be much more interesting but i've really read multiple books about the band in addition to all the articles and everything so i feel like there's very little public information that i don't already know about this band and honestly i did miss the other band members because they balance him out as he tries to talk about in the show my my you know his bandmates are not always on the same page as him and the band is kind of a thing where they all have to agree and so and they don't often always agree and so i feel like that was missing a little bit even though he tried to bring it back in by saying here's what this person would say here's what that person would say um but i don't know i like it it's i i don't think i would recommend this as somebody who's like i don't know what you two is all about and what the music's all about.

40:12Like I would maybe rack around even rattle and hum over this, which is a very narrow slice of time, uh, without much perspective, but it is actually a good concert movie. So that doesn't surprise me that you both knew everything and thought it was fine. Um, but with that said, you and I, as I mentioned earlier, did not watch the same, uh, show movie. Um, for me, it was as described, it was very much like a portions filmed in IMAX movie where for a lot of it, I was in an all black room with a screen in front of me and the, in the film is 99 % black and white. And so there's a screen in front of me that's playing a black and white movie, but there were times that immersive things happened.

40:55And so I was able to get some, um, press shots that Apple provided because I can't take a screenshot in the vision pro. So you just have to deal with the shots that Apple provided. Uh, there'll be in the show notes and I'm putting them in the chat room for the people that are listening live, but there, as this performing is happening, both, you know, um, uh, the, the verbal only performances as well as the musical performances, a lot of times, especially the non-music parts were 2d even for me. But what was fascinating is, and I didn't realize this until I scrubbed through the 2d version of the program, there were illustrations and like adornments and annotations that I think Bono might have done.

41:38I'm not 100 % sure about that. I spent a lot of time looking at the writing and going, is that a handwriting font? Are there three versions of that T and the only three versions? Or is he handwriting every one? Or is it not his handwriting? I also, I read somewhere, which I can't place, so I might be lying to myself and to you, but I thought I read that he used Procreate to draw it all so they could like replay the brushstrokes, if you will. So anyways, but what was interesting was, so a lot of the show, So because it's just him, he represents other people that he's speaking about and allegedly speaking with as just a chair on stage.

42:11So when he talks about the other members of U2, he has three chairs that are on stage, one for Edge, one for the bassist, one for the drummer. Forgive me, I don't remember their names. Isn't it The Edge? Well done. Sometimes they just call him Edge. So Edge is appropriate as short for The Edge. And there was actually a joke in the show about Pavarotti not remembering the bass player's name. So you're in good company, Casey. See, there you go. But there was a lot of times when he was describing being in a room in a pub in Dublin, I believe, and he's talking to his father and he has this like kind of cushy chair instead of just like a wooden chair next to him.

42:45and you're supposed to imagine the father in the chair next to him. And so he'll lean over and look to the left-hand side of the frame, which is his right, and say something to his dad. And then he'll look the opposite direction to mimic or explain what dad had just said. And what was fascinating was that's all you got, right? You didn't have anything else. He was just looking over and maybe they would reframe the shot. But there was no illustration, no annotation, nothing, right? There was like, I'm looking at these screenshots and some of these things I recognize from the 2D version, but I'm sure there was way less of them.

43:22Obviously, none of them broke the frame or like went outside the TV because it's not a thing you can do. Right. So when he was talking to his dad, who he had like three different versions of dad, daddy, dad and data or whatever, it was very, very weird. But anyways, when he was talking to his dad, there was an illustrated version of his dad sitting there like he wasn't talking. But you could see Bono. Yeah, no, we didn't get that. Exactly. And you can see the illustrated dad. And behind him was an illustrated bar with an illustrated barkeep, like working on, like polishing a glass or something like that.

43:53This is wildly different from what you saw. And I'm not sure if that's good, bad or indifferent, but, or other, whatever. But I find that fascinating that these are two very different cuts of the same thing. And the other thing that I thought was fascinating was in a way that I can't say I've ever experienced before the transitions between immersive and non-immersive were, I wouldn't go so far as to say seamless, but really, really close. They were incredibly good. And there were times that I could tell, like in the example, it was the middle example, I think it's called Stadium. He's performing at a stadium.

44:35And I believe you saw this illustration in the 2D version, if I'm not mistaken, but it's like all immersive and encompassing all around you. And what's interesting is if you look very, very, very closely, not in this image, but as you're watching the movie, you can see the border of the 2D screen, if you will, that that's presenting the hymn portion. And then, you know, all the illustration is around that. But then that eventually fades out. And the transition between 2D and 3D is so incredibly well done. And I was so blown away by how well they handled this. whether or not one likes these adornments and annotations and whatnot.

45:13I thought it added to it. I thought I, I mean, I liked it, but if, if one didn't, if you didn't, John or whoever's watching this didn't, I get that. But I thought it was incredibly fascinating and incredibly cool the way in which they approach this by basically cutting two totally different movies. And all in all, like I said, I really liked it. And by the end of it, I was surprisingly moved by it. And, you know, here I'm, I'm hearing, um, some of these incredibly popular U2 songs whose names I'm now forgetting because I'm, you know, talking extemporaneously, but you know, some of these songs I'm actually getting like, as I'm watching this, I'm actually getting a little choked up.

45:47Like I know this song, this is an incredibly good song, um, in the name of love, which probably isn't the title of the song, but it is not. It's in parentheses though. Well, okay. There you go. Is it stop in the name of love? That's something different entirely, but I actually got like a little choked up by this and that's not usually my style. I don't know if I was just having a very vulnerable moment when I watched it. But again, I was really, really impressed because here it was, I went into this thinking, I don't care what this man has to say. And by the end of it, I feel like he leaned Bono leaned into it enough that he won me over by the halfway through.

46:23And even though it was pretentious and kind of self-centered and whatever, I actually really, really enjoyed it. And again, as a technical experience, if you happen to have a vision pro, or if you have the time to go to the Apple store, I presume that what you watch a few minutes of it. I suggest trying it. Marco, I know you're kind of allergic to the Vision Pro at this point, but if you happen to be bored, then I suggest giving it just a few minutes to try, because I really think it is very, very, very well done. I haven't been bored in years. Yeah. If you've never heard these stories before, it is, he does have a moving story, and the story of the band, the fact that they're still together, and his dad dying, and his surgery, and everything.

46:57It's a good story, Wilto. Just because I've heard it before, doesn't mean it's not worth hearing for the first time. Yeah. And I can't stress enough, I know I've said it two times or three times already, but as an example of how to do immersive, I thought it was really cool and very, very different than anything else Apple has done so far. All right. Public service announcement. This should hopefully be quick. Plex is apparently turning the money spigot when it comes to selling data. And so I got an email from them, like a marketing email, and I already long since deleted it. But it was like, hey, just FYI, we're going to ask you to opt out of, or not even ask you, we're going to offer to you to opt out of some stuff if you're interested in that.

47:35And of course, my spidey senses started tingling and I was like, I'm sorry, what? And so if you go to plex.tv slash vendors hyphen US, or at least that's where I get redirected to, perhaps it's just slash vendors for other locales. You get a mile long list of things that you can opt out of. And they do, once you're logged in, they do have an, I think like an all no button at the very top, but I would still scroll this mile long list just to double check. This is probably not something that any of the listeners of the show would be interested in, insofar as you should go ahead and hit all no and then save it.

48:12On the flip side of this, though, my understanding from those in the EU, after I had posted about this on Mastodon, is pretty much everyone in the EU said, oh, I'm already opted out, opted out, which I presume is an EU legal thing. And if so, kudos to the EU. That's good. I mean, I was already opted out too. And I assumed it's because we've actually talked about this before and I opted out at that time. But who knows? It's hard to tell. But I was already opted out as well. Yeah, well, I was not. And this is the sort of thing I would have done. So either I had forgotten to do it, which tracks, when it originally happened, or maybe not.

48:44But either way, maybe I'm attributing to the EU something that wasn't the EU at all. But one way or another, you should go check it out. We'll put a link in the show notes. uh additionally i have a quick appeal if you don't mind uh i probably should not be shining a light on a bug in my own app but here i am everybody uh sometime i only started getting reports about this in the last couple of months but sometimes semi-recently i noticed that people were starting to report that if you go to um a particularly long like cast list be that or or a particularly long person with a long filmography. And if I remember, I'll put a link to one of these in the show notes.

49:23If you do this in call sheet and you scroll to the bottom, especially if you do it super duper duper quickly, and then scroll back and go kind of go back and forth a couple of times, what can end up happening is you can get a bunch of empty cells in the table view that represents that view, right? And so instead of seeing the entire filmography or the entire cast list, you just see blanks i'm not sure maybe i'm holding it wrong this is a swift ui list behind the scenes and maybe i'm bending it to the point of breaking it but i don't know how to fix it and i did my part uh you know it's that gif right go to labs at wwdc i will go to labs at wwdc uh but maybe file a dts ticket uh and i thought about filing a dts ticket uh and i'm not against doing that and i probably will do that after wwdc if i um if i don't get any good answers But I'm trying to do, I'm doing that thing, which I can do because it's partially my show.

50:16That is Accidental Tech Podcast, John, is partially my show. And I'm trying to shine a light on this bug. You mean bug. You're trying to shine a light on bug. On bug. That's right. I will put feedback. I will put feedback number in the show notes. If anyone has seen this and has a workaround, please, please, please go ahead and reach out. But if you happen to be on the SwiftUI team at Apple, which is probably nobody, but you never know, it could happen. I will put a link in the show notes to my toot about this and to the bug that I'm talking about. Now, I will say, if you look at the toot that I posted on Mastodon, what you think I'm complaining about is a bunch of log messages, which is kind of true.

51:00But that I actually don't care about that much. in the logs, it says list failed to visit cell content, returning an empty cell, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Please file a bug report, which I've done. But what I'm actually complaining about, like, I don't really care that this stuff is in the log. What I actually care about is the fact that my users are seeing blank rows on my app. And again, maybe this is not me. I'm not sure. But help me, Apple people. You're my only hope. It does say, please file a bug report. So whoever put this log message in their code didn't expect that to be hit and they're saying, look, if this, if the code ever reaches here and I emit this log message, something in my code, meaning Apple's code has gone wrong.

51:37So at the very least, that is something that someone should look at. Yes, but I would really, really hate if whoever gets this on their desk says, oh, sure, I'll just delete the log message. Problem solved. Like, that's not what I'm asking. I don't, I don't think they'll do that. If they put someone who puts this log message in and wants to know if it's being hit. And so now they'll get a report that it is. Well, one way or another, please, if you're an Apple person, I beg of you, do what you can to help me. You can do it totally on the down low. You can do it publicly, however you want. I will be happy to sing your praises and or send you accidental, not the, but accidental tech podcast stickers.

52:13If you're interested in that, help me. You're my only hope. That's why we make ATP shirts, not TATP shirts. I bet we actually have some relevant people listening to our show. Because the lower and mid-level people at Apple seems like it's just fine. It's the higher level people that maybe we go in and out of favor with. I think that's very fair. We're going to talk about that here in a second. But yeah, if there's anything you could do, I would really, really appreciate it. And yeah, just let me know. We are sponsored this episode by Factor. summer is here. More sun, more light. I love that. More time to do all the things that make summer so special.

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54:36wwc time as we sit here on wednesday night the 4th of june wwdc keynote is monday coming up which is what number is that the 9th of june uh none of us are going to be there i don't believe any of us got offered to be there and i know you two uh definitely said that you couldn't go anyway uh i had booked a bunch of refundable travel in this past weekend uh refunded myself because it was clear that I was not getting an invite this year. Take it out, whatever you will. I don't know. But let's talk about hopes and predictions. And it starts, I think, perhaps with this animation and tweet that was put up by Greg Joswiak earlier today, where it has WWDC 25 with an Apple logo, a rainbow, like the rainbow thing and the Swift logo, all reflecting the very colorful WWDC 25 at the bottom of this image.

55:26So what are we thinking, gentlemen? Oh, there was also the thing from their web page where it says WDAC-25, and they added this slogan, I don't know, a couple days ago, it says, sleek peak. And it's kind of weird for them saying there's going to be a peak. It's like, there's going to be a dev build, too, right? I mean, I hope. Yeah, it's like, here's just a peak. Anyway, so this is the EOS redesign thing, and I think that's one of the first obvious predictions and hopes. the prediction is as we've discussed in the past apple's redesigning all their operating systems with a new look uh probably something glassy uh what was the the code name uh solarium or something yeah i think that's right yep solarium not solarium the uh the mac arcade game um and so this artwork and these animations like it's basically like looks i would say like frosted glass would you say like frosted glass stuff that as casey pointed out reflects the colorful logo of wwdc into it that that's been the rumors about this um it's basically casey's desk right is your desk frosted no not anymore i got rid of that a long time ago because i have the standing desk now all right that was clear that was clear and not frosted though it was also clear and not frosted but that's neither there yeah and so i mean obviously uh my personal hope is that as i said this before like a big redesigns are are dangerous and tricky but like there's lots of things about the current mac os in particular the current mac os ui both the look and the design of it that i don't like and so here now a week before wwc is my last chance to have the hope that hey maybe those things that i don't like will be made better because you know i didn't think the whole os needs to be redesigned or anything but you know if you're going to redesign everything you're probably going to redesign the parts that i don't like and maybe i will like the new ones better the fear is that all the ones that I like just fine will get worse but we'll see how it goes so you know and as i said when we first discussed this even if it's not to my personal liking some you know if it just looks cool you get a little bit of a high out of that of like because a lot of things that apple's put out maybe they end up being not so practical not a great idea but they look really cool and that's fun and so i am actually looking forward to seeing what all the new os's look like and i'm trying to be optimistic about it because it's not like i'm saying everything's perfect and they should never change it now like i do think there should be change i didn't think necessarily this was the year to change all the os's but it's what they're doing uh so i don't know that's how i'm feeling about that there was a good article uh by uh what's his name that i put it in here about um lots of people have made predictions and of course uh talented artists and designers can not just make predictions but they do mock-ups essentially based on like the artwork that we see from apple and everything saying this is what the new ui could look like this is what i hope it will look like this is the you know people have their own pet peeves like i think that flat design has gone too far we need more dimensionality and physicality i think uh sebastian made a couple i think it was and made a couple of good points about like one of the things that apple can do that its competitors would find more difficult to copy is make a look that requires like tremendous like precision and consistency because apple controls the hardware and the software stacks they can of all these different platforms they can very precisely ensure that this particular effect which anybody could do but it would be like other designers and other platforms like android would say we would never do that because it would just be such a pain to try to make that look consistent everywhere and not be ugly across the vast range of android stuff that's out there but apple can do that because they are targeting a smaller amount of hardware and they control everything and so one of their potential advantages is do things that their competitors would essentially find impractical to implement now that doesn't mean apple's ides are going to be good ideas or that people will like them or that they will improve things but it is an advantage that they can they can tackle tasks that are just too annoying to implement on other platforms so i hope they take advantage of that and do make something that looks cooler than we expect because you know like aero glass from windows is what this reminds me of honestly i forget when that was because i'm not a windows expert but there was a time when microsoft many years ago was super heavily into all the windows are going to be clear and glassy because that's what apple did with aqua kind of but we're going to take that to the nth degree and it's not good and nobody liked it and you could see through too many things and it doesn't really persist to this day and that's kind of how i feel about how mac os is as well so you know cautiously optimistic to see what the new os looks like but at this point i fully expect it apple is teasing it uh you know how are you feeling about the new look?

1:00:04I am a little excited and a little scared. I'm scared because I really don't know if I trust today's Apple to execute a really sweeping redesign well on multiple levels, on design choices, and on software quality. I think when you look at the last couple of years of Apple's platforms. And like, you know, we've been in a mostly okay place with quality, but like you have a huge, you know, AI revolution going on in, you know, the rest of the tech business. You have Apple presumably at least a little bit on fire trying to catch up with that. I hope so. They should be. You have them launching a new platform in Vision Pro that seems to have gone nowhere, but, you know, a lot of resources were put into that.

1:00:55But right now, do I trust them in that state to have delivered a sweeping redesign of all of their platforms in the middle of all that, like in the last couple of years? I don't know. It seems like that's a lot to ask of a company to do that now in this environment, like on that scale. So I don't know. I'm a little I'm a little scared that they might have just like disrupted everything you know kind of unwisely or at a bad time or as a distraction you know and I don't think that was necessarily the goal if they did it but like I think it's going to serve that function and I'm sure they leaned into it a little bit but like I don't know if I trust any company to deliver that sweeping of a redesign in that kind of context even if it was somebody else.

1:01:47But I also don't know if I trust Apple to do that and today's Apple. And I also am not sure I trust today's Apple, led by the Allendeye design team over there. I don't think I trust them to make great decisions with the UI design-wise either because look at what they have done since they have been in charge of software design. They've been in charge for a long time. What we have been using is their designs. The system settings app on the Mac, which still remains both functionally and visually atrocious, that's their design. It's those people doing this design. So I want to be excited because a UI redesign, if done well, can be really invigorating to the entire ecosystem.

1:02:32It can be really cool. But I don't know that I trust those people at this time to have executed well on that. But I hope I am wrong about that. I, the UI redesign is actually what I am most excited about, even though that one single thing will keep all of us developers busy for a year. Like, you know, if it's that, if it's that significant of a redesign, which we don't know how significant it is, but if it's that significant of a redesign, it will be the only thing we can work on for a long time. Like we will have to adopt our apps to it. And also that raises the question of like, what is Apple's position with developers right now?

1:03:13How excited are developers going to be to have to do all this work for Apple? Now, there's always going to be, you know, small developers who are big Apple fans who will do whatever they ask us to do. But then there's also, you know, medium and big companies where it's like Apple's relationship with all developers is a little strained. And with medium and big companies, it's extra strained. are they going to be willing to put in the effort to adopt this new design? I wouldn't, I don't think anyone's going to be jumping at it from medium size and large companies. So there's a lot of kind of, you know, mixed feelings going on with me about this.

1:03:49Like it could go a bunch of different ways. It's a huge risk and it could pay off big. We will see. I hope it does because if it doesn't pay off big, it's going to be a huge distraction and pain in the butt for all of us and it's going to harm our platforms that we love and care about so much so i hope it's not that um but i am a little bit wary um i am excited about other things like so well hold on okay with regard to the redesign i think i feel similarly to marco but far more extremely in so far as if you ask me as a user i'm really excited because i think that you know if you take sebastian's mock-ups which obviously who knows if they're going to be right or not but But Sebastian's really talented.

1:04:32And as an aside, if you haven't read this post, it's really, really, really worth your time. It was not at all pretentious, and it spells out the history and how did we get here. And it's really good. But anyways. Yeah, even I read it. That's saying something, y 'all. So anyways, when I put on the Vision Pro, and obviously we were just talking about it a few minutes ago, whatever my or our qualms about whether that thing should exist, whether it has achieved the goals it set out to do, putting all that aside for a second the hardware as i've said many times unquestionably it's like strapping the future to your face granted it's a heavy future granted it's a little bit of an awkward future but it's the future but i actually think and i've said this in the past in a lot of ways the software feels like the future and i think it's in no small part because it has that new coat of paint you know a lot of these same affordances that we're allegedly going to be getting on the other platforms find their roots in vision os and granted it's different because vision OS has a real strong concept of depth that no other platform that Apple has really does, or certainly not to the same degree.

1:05:38But I love using visual vision OS from a visual perspective. It just looks cool. And I get that there's not a lot that I feel like I can get done efficiently in vision OS, but it's just fun to use. And if that comes to other platforms as a user, I am so here for it. And I looked, you know, I opened up the invites app again for the first time since we talked about it a few months ago. And this is a less extreme version of what we're allegedly going to get, but I think it looks great. I really do. So as a user, I'm really genuinely quite excited for this. I'm sure they will go way too far. They'll swing for the fences.

1:06:15That's baseball, Marco. They'll swing for the fences and they may or may not hit a home run, also baseball, but nevertheless, I think it could be a really fun and interesting time to be an Apple fan. And goodness knows, I and I think the three of us would love to have fun nitpicking icons and fonts and whatnot rather than the stuff we've been doing. Putting all that aside and taking off that hat and putting on my developer hat. Oh, God, please no. Because I do not want to spend all summer figuring this out. On the optimistic side, don't you think that if they do a good job of this, none of us should have to update our apps too much?

1:06:54I mean, there's always things you have to do. That's this thing. If you're not a developer, where you're like you've you've made things so they look correct with the current set of widgets and you maybe think well if apple will just make those same widgets look different the metrics are going to change there'll be different appearances for certain things and you're going to have to revisit every screen and say does this still look okay in the new os or do i have to branch and say when you're on this os or newer adjust the metric so it looks good with this new thing on the old money it's this thing we have to do but if they don't if it if this ends up not being you know if the metrics don't change that much if if the if the widgets if the particular uh options we choose for each controls don't radically change how they look hopefully we won't have to change that much and same deal for big developers like marco said that aren't really going to update their apps if we can at least persuade them to build against the new sdk will they just say like ah well we built against the new sdk now all the buttons are glass ship it it's fine um like that will be the more optimistic case of like it won't require huge changes unfortunately especially on the phone if the rumors are to be believed and uh sebastian also like essentially incorporated those rumors like for example uh whatever they called on the phone tab bars the little bottom bar on the bottom uh that being we talked about this in past shows floating again as so it's not stuck against the bottom of the screen but instead it's floating on top of the content that changes your set changes your eye in annoying ways it changes how you have to lay out everything it changes what your insets are it changes the metrics it changes the height of the available content but you have to draw the content that's going to be behind it too because you're going to see it there and that's super annoying and not great in an example of a change that will require more attention but there is the possibility especially on the mac i feel like kind of like how they change like dialogues in the mac remember they used to be horizontal for you know all of life of the mac and they just said now their portrait orientation i still hate those dialogues i don't like it either they still look worse than what they replaced but it's a change that they made and that change didn't require mac developers to do much of anything except for like i said look at their how does my dialogue that i carefully designed for the old layout look in the new one and if it's horrendous i'll fix it but otherwise it's still functional so i don't know like i just i i don't want to have to update my app for the new look either and i'm a little bit afraid of of the new look but i think if they do it in a good in a clever way the amount of actual work required to update to it shouldn't be that bad now the the real thing they have to deal with is hopefully people like this like forget about developers forget about apple right the whole rest of the world who's not apple or developers which is pretty much everybody uh they better think this looks i don't at least interesting or cool or like makes people want to Like, like, in that way, like, just changing it is an important task because, like, they went with flat design and basically that was an industry trend.

1:09:50And now that trend has spread across the industry. So now all the industry looks very similar to that. Apple going off in a different direction, which is, you know, seemingly based on their concept art is actually kind of a back to the future type thing of like, well, actually, remember Aqua with all the transparency? Let's go back to that because we went so far away from that. Maybe we'll bring a little bit of that back. what it will do i think is make the iphone look different than android make it look more different than android phones than it does now even though android's going not that they went into frosted glass but they're they're going into mixing colors and stuff with the railiest thing as well but differentiation right differentiation and hopefully differentiation in a way where we won't be talking about three weeks from now or maybe when the os comes out we won't be talking about how everyone is refusing to upgrade to ios 26 just like they refused to upgrade to ios 18 because the photos app changed right that better not be the story from apple's perspective they want people to either be neutral on it or to think it's cool and in any case it has to look different than other phones so in that capacity in differentiation and saying android and apple have been too similar to each other for too long apple's going to put a new stake in the ground which is a little bit like their old stake but whatever uh with this glassy thing and now you'll be able to tell oh is that the new iPhone?

1:11:04Is that the new iOS? Because it looks different. And now you've been able to tell, oh, I know that's an iPhone because iPhone looks like frosted glass. And hopefully the story isn't, yeah, iPhone looks like frosted glass and everybody hates it. And there'll be like one mean person on TikTok saying mean things about Apple. That'll just be the end of their whole OS. Yeah, I really think that this could be great. And as a developer, again, I'm not looking too forward to this. It's hard to get excited about doing what feels like busy work. Now, Now, if this looks as great as I hope it does, and I think it might, then it won't feel as much like busy work.

1:11:36But it is a big ask. I think it was Marco that said a minute ago that, you know, this is asking a lot at this particular time with the vibes the way they are right now. But hopefully it won't be too bad, as John was saying. And, hey, you know, John and I, and I think Marco now is, Marco, you're almost all on SwiftUI, right? And, John, your latest stuff is SwiftUI. And certainly CallSheet is pretty much exclusively SwiftUI. And that's why we write. Swift UI, right? Right? That's not right. I know it's not why, but it's a little, it's a tiny bit more abstracted than, say, AppKit, but not really.

1:12:09No, we're saying the same thing. I was snarking, but hopefully it won't be ruinous, as John was saying. And I'm really, really excited to see it. And just, if you're new to this, if you're new to caring about Apple as much as the three of us do, just remember that, or let me inform you that back when iOS 7 landed, the betas were bad. Not only were they tough to run, but they didn't look great. They really went way too far. What's the little thing on your desk with the line of balls and the balls bounce back and forth? What's this thing called? I forget what it's called, but you know what I'm thinking of.

1:12:42And they kind of like, they swung into the right-hand side ball and the left-hand side ball went wee all the way. Is that a Newton's cradle? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Yes, I think that's it. Thank you. And so anyway, so they way over swung. And then the other pendulum, if you will, came back and it kind of eventually settled. And then it wasn't so bad. And I mean, whether or not you like the flat look, I do think that where they landed was a far better place than where they started, because where they started was rough. And that's OK. That's part of how this works. So if you see it and you're watching the WWDC keynote or you're trying the beta, which I would not recommend, and you say, oh, my goodness, this is way too far and way too much.

1:13:23Have faith. it's probably going to be okay. Yeah, I think, I mean, first of all, for the betas, I think this is one that I'm going to install beta 1. First of all, I won't be traveling during it, which will help, but also like, one thing that also happens a lot with a redesign is developers have to figure out over the course of the summer really quickly, first of all, is anything really broken that we need to report, because Apple only will fix bugs from the first few weeks, and second of all, then we really need to see like how does this design work because we need to make our apps you know adopt the design and if it is merely a re-skinning and everything you know basically works the same way that's one thing that's never the case basically we're never that lucky because you know frankly that would be kind of boring um you know whenever apple does design tweaks also So like new behaviors are introduced, new standard widgets or standard interaction paradigms are introduced, you know, navigation mechanics.

1:14:25Like there's going to be a lot that we need to adopt. Beta 1 for me is like I need to start learning this new design from whatever Apple has done for Beta 1. So it's going to be a buggy summer with terrible battery life, but I'll get through it. Also, like what happened with iOS 7 I think is instructive. if we have that level of redesign, which maybe we do, maybe we don't, maybe it's somewhere in the middle. But with iOS 7, it was pretty difficult to adopt the new design while maintaining compatibility with iOS 6. It was a lot easier to make your app require iOS 7 and launch it pretty soon after iOS 7 launched.

1:15:06Obviously, we live in a different world now. There's a lot more iPhones. They're in use for a lot longer. you know adoption rates probably aren't quite as fast as they were back then but if this is really a sweeping redesign there's gonna be a lot of apps that want to launch as close to september as possible that will require ios apparently 26 so that's going to become a thing like that there will be a big compatibility break if this if this happens the way that it's rumored to happen, a lot of apps will realize, oh, no, we need to adopt the new design in order to stay trendy and relevant to our customers and to avoid one-star reviews for not updating.

1:15:46But that's going to be difficult to do while maintaining the old app. So I think there's going to be a lot of aggressive requirements where you require iOS 26 right from the start or a lot of apps that basically fork themselves in their own code and say, all right, this is the iOS 18 and below version. and then on launch like if you're running i was 26 launch this entirely separate storyboard or whatever or scene that will be like that code base um so we're going to see a lot a lot of like hoop jumping by developers and apps um to recognize the fact that like we're going to have to basically require this right up front so to bridge the gap between this and what i think marker was going to say earlier about his optimism about being able to use apple's models it is interesting that you know they're doing this redesign i think when we was originally rumored uh one of the things i said about it was like and like you just said now mark are like oh geez apple you're in the middle of this ai thing that you're not doing well on that you're behind uh is now the time you really want to do some other really big change and in many respects you're like no this is not a good time for this like you have enough problems already while this is of your own choosing you can just delay this for a year or two until you get your feet under you with the ai thing or whatever but no this seems like they're going with it right but on the other hand all of the rumors have been leaning towards hey this is not going to be the year that apple comes out and says yeah you remember all that apple intelligence stuff we talked about but we didn't quite get it out we're disappointed in that but this year we're coming roaring back and we got all these great apple intelligence features and more that you've never heard of and we're going to ship them and they're available today and you can try them out yourself that's not going to be this wwc from the rumors that we've heard so if you're going to do like let's say in sports analogy this is not sports specific marco a rebuilding year like this is kind of a rebuilding year for apple and ai according to the rumors we'll see if it really is but again this is our prediction slash hope so it seems like it's going to be a rebuilding year it seems like they're not ready with this blockbuster bucket of amazing ai powered things that finally fulfill the promise of last year's step no they don't doesn't seem like they have that so in the absence of that it's nice to have something big to say so is this kind of like a uh during the rebuilding year here's something fun look over there redesign like you know like maybe maybe like in some i used to think the timing was terrible and they were distracting themselves but i'm more and more thinking about it i was like this is actually kind of good timing for if they do a good job on this it's something they can put out like i feel like the pressure is on them less to be like you got to catch up to ai because the whole ai story with them is negative in a totally different way it's like you're not doing it um so this redesign like it's a flashy they'll be in people's faces consumers will hear about it probably hopefully they'll like it so if they do a good job of this it actually is a good thing to occupy everybody uh unfortunately including apple while we wait for them to figure to to do that rebuilding you know they they need to get some new recruits they they need to i can't do more sports analogies they need to get some good picks in the draft uh they need to just rebuild their team uh they did a bunch of uh shuffling or whatever but that all that stuff they did is not going to bear fruit this year it seems like so i bet they will have something to say about ai and the rumor is that marco will finally get his wish and be able to use models that come on the phone that he does not have to ship with his app yeah that i am i'm very much looking forward to you know the rumors are strong enough around that now that it seems like it's probably going to happen um again it remains to be seen what that means what are the limitations how well do these work what are we allowed to do what is free what is throttled um for either you know you know cost or just phone resources like what like what are we allowed to do in the background what are we allowed to do in background refresh and processing tasks like stuff like that there's a lot of questions around this that we will have to just find out um and i think you know for in terms of like how do what we expect for apple and their ai story next week i think first of all there will be no apology no negativity negativity whatsoever about the delayed and missing features from last year uh they will probably dodge mentioning them at all or they'll mention them only in a positive light they'll talk about like here's all the cool stuff people are doing with image playground and whatever genmoji like i feel like almost placing a bet on that because like please apple show us what cool things people are doing with your terrible image generator please no but you know they're going to show it off because like that's i feel like what they're going to say is we're still working real hard on these things and we can't wait to show them to you when they're ready like that's as close as they'll come no i i bet there's going to be just like papering over like you know we've always been at warworth these days like it's just what are you talking this is that these are our great features like just no mention at all about the delay and missing features um i expect that we will see you know they'll talk about a lot of like kind of incremental progress on the existing apple intelligence features that are already out um i don't expect to see like major deep progress on them, but an incremental year on whatever those have been so far.

1:20:46I expect one possibility that they might use to kind of try to paper over their AI PR problems. If you recall a few years back, they started, for like one or two years, they started calling machine learning features Siri. Even things that were not invoking the Siri assistant, they were using Siri as a brand name to be like, you know siri organize your photos or whatever i think we might see that kind of thing for like apple intelligence or ai being used as a term to say look at look at the new things ai is doing and it's not actually like apple intelligence or llm type models or things that it's actually like just ml features they are maybe going to brand as apple intelligence so it sounds like they're making ai progress if you don't follow apple very closely um so i'm guessing there's going to be a lot of that kind of like you know papering over a lot of you know let's polish up these you know kind of small things into something that sounds like a big overall picture because we don't really have anything bigger to show yet that's what i'm expecting ai wise are you expecting that segment will be shorter i'm expecting it will be like when they do that it will not be as long a segment as the other segment i think they're gonna lean heavily on it honestly because it's like this is what the industry expects from them this is what you know the the investors and the markets and all the pressures are on them to deliver some kind of a good AI story.

1:22:11And I don't think they're going to have a great AI story yet. And so I think they're going to try to shine up the turf that they have as best as they can and just act like, look at all this amazing stuff we're doing. Only Apple can do all this amazing stuff. We've seen areas like this before where they're a little behind in something. And so they really put a big grin on and talk about how amazing this stuff is that they mostly already had. so i can see them talking about incremental progress and the features that they've shipped fine um if they have the google deal to announce like gemini being incorporated i think that will take a lot of time and that will actually be something that like sort of people are interested in seeing because the chat gbt integration for all its problems has been a little bit an escape patch for people to not deal with apple's progress but instead to be able to use one of the industry leaders and apple's been hinting at the gemini deal since since like ww since the day of wwc 2024 like even that day they were saying and you know it might be looking at other people and talking about it and there's just rumors for literally an entire year oh getting close on the gemini deal apple's gonna have and so anyway like the rumors continue uh now would be the time if you if finally can strike a deal with google on the gemini thing having not just one choice for a thing that siri delegates do when it can't do the thing but two choices would be great because i think that i've been playing with the latest gemini uh a little bit more heavily now and i think it's pretty good uh so i think apple should incorporate it and that would also get some heat off them a little bit because it's kind of like while we fail to do things ourselves we should start uh fulfilling the promise that we were trying to say last time and it's like and for the things that we can't do we'll work with third parties and it was singular last year we'll work with third party and it was just open ai be great if they had two because now you're like oh now actually they are doing kind of a platform thing because there's this place where a thing can plug in and they you can plug in chat gbt or open air maybe you can do them both or gemini or you can do both the same time so i think that could absorb a lot of time that's like but honestly i don't expect their ai segment to certainly not to be as long as it was last year because that was like the whole thing i just i i put it this way i think they shouldn't spend a long time dwelling on whatever they have to show for ai we made this made writing tools better in this way we improved image playground so it doesn't suck as bad, you know, whatever, fine.

1:24:29And then, oh, and announcing our deal with Google Gemini and then move on. What will make that kind of, you know, make or break that is how does this integration look? You know, the problem with the iOS 18 chat GPT integration is not that we need another model to choose from. The problem is the integration is very limited and sucks. And Siri is not good at delegating which requests go to chat GPT. The problem is it isn't that ChatGPT is holding back the iPhone. The iPhone is not letting ChatGPT do enough and is not calling upon it enough or at the right times. So if the Gemini deal is just plugging in Gemini where ChatGPT is now, that's not enough.

1:25:13Hopefully, what Apple has done is some kind of better and or deeper integration that people can choose from if they want to. They may have to do that because of the EU regulations, right? Probably, yeah. But that would be way better. Right now, you can use the ChatGPT integration with Siri. I mentioned I do it in the car sometimes. I ask, hey, Dingus, ask ChatGPT this question that I know you won't know the answer to. And that's been occasionally very good. But what's better when I'm actually using the phone is to just open the ChatGPT app because it's just way better in every possible way because the integration from Apple is so limited and kind of bizarre in certain ways.

1:25:51Yeah, that could be an example of the integration, not so much as like a thing that Siri delegates to, but different or better API access for the Gemini app and the ChatGPT app. I'm not sure what form that would take, but maybe some kind of privacy preserving context awareness that Apple was touting for Apple intelligence. They're basically like Apple's whole deal is we have tons of information about you on your phone and we're going to feed that into our AI thing so we can answer intelligence questions without taking all your private information and chucking it to our server so we can see it all.

1:26:20like that was their whole angle uh it would be interesting and really cool if they said and now we have a way for third-party things like chat gpt and gemini to do the thing that we failed to do last year which is have access to all your local information in a privacy preserving way with these brand new apis that we control that we can know that they're not you know stealing all your info and whatever like i don't think they're going to do that that hasn't even been rumored but that's an example of an integration that doesn't require them to replace siri with something better is merely like apis uh created to make it so the chat gpt app on ios is really good it's better like maybe not better than it is on android but it that it is well integrated with the os that it has more access than it currently does because that's kind of the problem it's kind of the problem the egg is solving it's like oh if i launch a gpt app and i wanted to do something i gotta like hit the little plus button and here's a document and here's this thing i have to give it all this context first and here's what you know here's the memory make sure you use the memory feature to let it know about you and what kind of app you're working on and what apis you use and like all this context that you're trying to shove into the app so that when you go and ask it a question it kind of like has a head start on where you are and it's like man you're on my phone you should already know everything about me uh but that is scary from a privacy perspective so apple should find a way to deal with that but i think i think this is more wish casting at this point we'll see how that section of the of the presentation goes but i i really think the uh the big redesign because remember the redesign will probably have like a like a little video about the redesign but then every single os is the rumor is they're doing all of them every single os we'd be like and of course this has the new look look at this looks look at that looks like it's just a time suck like not in a bad way but like it's i feel like the redesign is going to absorb a lot of time and a lot of screen space in this thing so ai gets pushed down a little bit one of the reasons why i like your idea of like making just apis for the gemini and chat gpt apps to hook into and be better, is that I want to see the shackles around the iPhone break more often than once a year.

1:28:18I want to see progress here. The AI consumer market is just exploding. These companies are just churning out update after update, massive new product features every month or every few weeks. We're at such an amazing rate of progress in this industry right now. And for Apple to only be able to update its integration, once a year is not good enough. They're going to just keep falling behind and being more and more disconnected from this entire world of technological progress that's going on. So if they make it API-based, the apps can update whenever they can, whenever they feel like it, whenever they can get their app review, but whenever they can feel like it, they can update and keep adding stuff over the course of the year without waiting for Apple to move at the glacial pace that they issue software updates with actual features.

1:29:06Because at this point, like issuing anything about AI, issuing it once a year is just death in this industry. Like that's, it's like, it's like updating a GPU every 10 years in a product line. Like that's, that's not going to work. So hopefully they have, hopefully they know this. I mean, look, Apple's full of very smart people with, you know, they're in the same tech business we are. It doesn't seem that way all the time, but like they're in the same business. They can look around, they can see, hopefully, hopefully some of them see the writing on the wall here of like, you know, AI is a big deal.

1:29:33We need to, you know, really be in this in a bigger way. And they have an amazing set of platforms that people like, for the most part, developing software on. And so they can take advantage of it. They can be the platform company. They can enable these apps to operate on their platform if they, you know, just give a little. Like, give some integration APIs. Like, just give a little bit. And they can be an amazing platform for all this stuff to happen on. But right now, they just seem like they're getting in the way. so hopefully we see some change in direction there oh that's the other uh ai angle i forgot about uh that we talked about in the past show the uh basically uh swift assist which never appeared on the anthropic deal basically like xcode there's usually a section in wwc where they talk about x code maybe it's in the state of the union uh last year they touted a bunch of features that would help you code better using llms that would be integrated into xcode uh the big one of those did not ship uh lots of in to your point marco in the year since then boy have there been a lot of tools and ids and integration with lm power and apple has essentially sat that out i know they have the whatever that one model they have in there for like better completion it is fine but it's a far cry from what is available at the cutting edge of help me write code with lm based technology uh and so that would be another good ai thing that would actually make that setting actually pretty longer because you know they'd just be going around look at this look how amazing this is an xcode and list this you know that feels like it's within their reach i know they're especially partnering with Anthropic, but whatever you got to do, like, you know, it's, it seems like just such a no brainer.

1:31:05And because of their yearly release cycle, like they, they promised it last year. And I forget how much of it they showed. It never shipped. Maybe it'll ship this year. Maybe they'll announce a partnership. But the point is typing in Xcode should have the access to better LLM based code features. It doesn't have to be like the, you know, cursor IDE or replet or all those other fans. It doesn't have to be like that. Like we're not saying just like, oh i just go to xcode and i talk to it and writes the app for me like that's the cutting edge and there's a rule for that out there but we just want like what you showed last year that seems like it should be within your reach and if it's not i hope you partner with somebody to make that within your reach and i think that would go in the apple intelligence section of the talk even though it is it's kind of weird it's like really would they talk about developer tools at wwc yeah sometimes they do hard to believe but sometimes they do but like you know why why shouldn't apple be cutting edge like why are we not expecting them to like i know because they fell on their face last time or they're they're it's a rebuilding year but i'm saying like you know why are we why are we instantly lowering our expectations like well we know apple won't be the best at this but we hope they do something like that i think that should that should wake people and apple up like why are we grading on a curve here well we're lowering our expectations because we don't think they're going to have it ready they didn't do it last year and it seems they can't i'm not saying that they can never do it i'm saying i don't expect them to have it okay by monday yeah that's yeah i don't either but like yeah i have i have zero faith in apple's ai efforts being remotely competitive with what the rest of the market is doing i think it's very obvious that like apple's leaders have decided not to be a leader in ai again actions speak louder than words apple has decided ai is not that important to them i hope they change their mind i don't think they decided that at all i i think they just rearranged their senior leadership around this because they want to do better yeah like after the entire industry passed them by but anyway well they they failed but it's not because they don't want to do it i think they realized very very late maybe they should get off their butts but anyway so okay let me go through a little bit of negativity and then we'll get back to positivity because i just i wanted to say expectations accordingly i don't think there will be any acknowledgement of the relationship with developers courts ongoing lawsuits regulations around the world i don't think there will be any acknowledgement of any of that next week you think that's negativity i think that's just par for the course in any year yeah yeah but but seriously like you know what i expect is like you know they will project pure confidence they will have some puffy videos showing how amazing the app store is for customers and how it has enabled all these diverse groups of developers to succeed and do amazing things and save people's lives and cure cancer like that's what we're going to see we're going to see a video of all these happy developers that just have been enabled by apple's generosity thank god they let us develop on this platform because we are saving children with our work on this platform.

1:34:07That's the kind of thing we're going to see. And the App Store is so safe and private for our customers. We're not going to see any policy changes. We're not going to see any major opening up of things that were previously locked down. We will see no signs of any kind of change of heart. That's all out. A lot of people on MasterDone and stuff have been asking, like, oh, do we expect that? I'm sorry, don't expect that. That's not going to happen. Hasn't been rumored either, right? No, of course not. We will see a bunch of puffy videos about how the way they have been doing things and have always been doing things is awesome.

1:34:45And look at how great it's working for all these people. And it's going to be marketing to the world and to regulators and courts saying, look at how great the App Store is. So don't expect any changes on that. What this event will be is showing off what Apple is doing in the tracks they were already on. This is not going to be giving developers everything they want with policies. This is going to be giving us a really cool, hopefully, UI redesign for the platforms that will set the tone of how we do the rest of our work this summer, fall, and probably winter. This will be, hopefully, those on-device AI model APIs.

1:35:26It will be, hopefully, a cool Xcode AI integration, as we were just saying. I'm hoping to see what tends to make the most day-to-day life improvements for developers is kind of the less flashy but maybe more important progress that happens every year. Stuff like SwiftUI, having certain limitations lifted or having new capabilities or cool… Rich text editor in SwiftUI. Yeah, cool new styles. Like, you know, having maybe like a SwiftUI web view has been rumored for a while. Basically, more expansion and maturation of SwiftUI. Also, more async APIs from Apple's APIs. So much of UIKit and Foundation and all these APIs that have been built over time, so much of those are not quite playing nicely with modern Swift in a couple of ways.

1:36:16There's sendable conformance, all the Swift 6 stuff. There's especially async APIs. async APIs make so many types of things so much easier to write these days and nothing shows off how great async is than when you run into something that's not async that you have to convert in or work around with some kind of callback or delegate and it's cumbersome and buggy. And the callback's not main thread and you can't make it main thread. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff like that that just like... They need to continue to annotate and update their APIs. Just to give an even more boring example that I think has come up in your past conversations about Overcast, like the multiple selection support and lists.

1:36:54Oh my God, please. So boring. It's so boring. Like no one's going to, it's going to be in one obscure. It's not going to be in the keynote probably. Maybe it'll be on a bento box thing, but it's like that one thing. Like that's one of the beautiful things about WWC is you watch some random obscure session somewhere and they get to a slide. You're like, oh my God, I wanted that for five years. And it will make a material difference to your app in a way that is, that only you as developer need to know about. but you're like yes finally and like users get the benefit they don't know that it's because of this one session or whatever they just know like oh they finally added that feature why did they add it because it wasn't part of the framework before and now it is yeah exactly like that's that's what i look forward to every year is like i mean i nowadays a little bit more complicated because of the weird way like you know modifiers are added to swift ui but i used to i used to love like going through the api diffs on that first day and just seeing like oh my god they added this method to ui table view oh thank god like you know stuff like that like just finding out like Like all those little things, oh, this one little paper cut that I've had because of some limitation in the API, that's now lifted.

1:37:54Or, oh, that's a cool new method. What does that do? And you look into it, oh, I could really use that in my app. That's the kind of stuff that I really benefit from every single day for the whole year. When you have some kind of flashy new API, that can be great or you might not have a use for it. um you know but stuff like making more of the foundation apis like making more of them async and making them sent making their callbacks sendable and all this stuff like there's so much stuff like that that we run into every day as developers and by far my favorite part of the new software releases every year is that kind of stuff and it's usually that kind of stuff that makes me want to require the new os for my app at some point in the future i was like like i run into something like, oh man, this one paper cut, ooh, fixed in iOS 18 with this new modifier.

1:38:44Okay, I'm requiring iOS 18 now. There's all sorts of stuff like that. In other areas of the API, I expect to see some improvements here and there. I expect they're probably going to keep pushing App Intents pretty heavily because that's how the Apple Intelligence features that were delayed might come soon. That's how they interact with your app. So that's pretty important. Hopefully, maybe stuff like the widget system gets a few little improvements here and there. They're using widgets in so many ways now. Watch complications. Those are just widgets now. Live activities, those are basically live widgets.

1:39:25There's the standby mode. That's widgets. What looks to be standby widgets showing up in CarPlay Ultra, that also looks like just widgets to me um carplay itself like i spent all morning this morning trying to work around a carplay animation bug that's just in apple's frameworks and carplay like developers have very little ability to do much of anything in carplay like it's a very limited api for various like safety and regulatory reasons for what's displayed in cars and so there's only so much you can really do so when you run into like an animation bug in apple's frameworks like well i kind of can't work around this one but they're rumored that the new redesigns are also being applied to carplay well am i still going to be using this you know ancient api that i'm using to write carplay apps maybe there will be some kind of version of swift ui for carplay obviously with like a limited set of what you can do but like like i kind of felt when i was writing on my carplay code over in the last couple couple weeks i'm like should i really be doing this right now like maybe they're about to change all this that kind of stuff like i i look forward to that kind of stuff because whatever the company does with its politics and its relationship with developers like that's its own thing off to the side i try to keep off to the side for most of my life because i don't want to you know keep focusing too much on stuff i can't control what i get out of bed for is well first of all my old dog is not sleeping in as well anymore as he used to but also you know i like making great software and apple tends to deliver a lot of good improvements every year that are less flashy than the big headlining features usually but that enable me to make better software or that enable my software to be it's a little bit nicer or do a few more things than it could do before or make my life a little bit easier as the author of that software that's the kind of stuff i'm looking forward to most and that stuff is usually so minor it doesn't even appear on the bento box slides uh but it usually is like oh thank god they made this one function async or whatever it's that kind of stuff word cloud slides is really what they usually go with yeah box seems like to be more for hardware word clouds is like for apis in the back you'll see multiple selections and lists and swift ui maybe that's too wordy but anyway we keep an eagle eye out for that um and speaking of looking forward to the things time was it doesn't seem that long ago where one of the most important rumors slash potentially leak things that would happen before wwc was setting expectations for hardware announcements so much so that when when it was a year where it was like somehow it would be made clear by apple through a strategic leak to wall street journal or something that you shouldn't expect any hardware just so people didn't get disappointed but these days it seemed like the expectation of any hardware wwc is so remote that apple doesn't even need to set the expectation there's not going to be because that's the default now uh wwc that's not a hardware announcement event if there's not gonna be any hardware i haven't seen any hardware rumors even people saying like what about the home pod with the screen thing like yeah no probably not uh despite that the fact that there is not a strong like somewhat plausibly leaked by apple to some important publication message that says don't expect any hardware wwc this is going to be all software despite the fact that doesn't exist uh i'm allowed to be out here thinking you know maybe there'll be a hardware announcement like no i don't think so definitively that there wouldn't it's very unlikely but you know what i'm thinking i'm thinking you know you updated this mac studio with the m3 ultra oh you're thinking mac pro of course you updated the mac studio with the m3 ultra it's like look if you're gonna update the Mac Pro with the M3 Ultra.

1:43:06God knows why you didn't do it when the studio was done, but whatever. The Mac Pro moves in mysterious ways. Just get the disappointment over with and say, hey, guess what? It's the Mac Pro and it's a Mac Studio in a giant box. Just do it and just be like, let's rip off the Band-Aid and so I can set my sights on next year because that would let me know, hey, this year, if you're going to buy a new Mac, it's not going to be a Mac Pro. Like, just do that for me. Or, you know, if you have like an M4 Ultra or an M5 something, like whatever, you know super secret thing nobody cares about it didn't leak because nobody cares about the mac pro like this is the great thing about the mac pro is so obscure that like it's plausible that it wouldn't leak because who the hell cares um i care so anyway mac pro believe like i i don't expect it no one expects anything have you heard anybody expecting hardware wc no one expects anything the m5 isn't ready it's going to come on the ipad pro for like the whole 2025 hardware rumors they're all out there for the year they're all lined up you can go read about them right but wwc no i mean And how do they even have time?

1:44:04With the redesign stuff and all of those stuff, there's certainly not going to be any hardware. But, you know, throw me a Mac Pro-shaped bone or a Mac Pro-shaped dagger in the form of an M3 Ultra Mac Pro. But whatever. Do something with it other than canceling the product publicly. Wow. I mean, so you got what you're looking forward to. Like, I can't. I have to be honest. I'm going to be sitting there going, come on, one in a million odds for Mac Pro anything. Come on, come on. I'm going to be thinking. I can't help myself. That's what I'm going to be thinking. I'm not predicting it. I'm just, I'm just, you know, I'm just out there hoping.

1:44:38I don't, I don't think there's going to be any hardware. I really don't. I can't, I can't decide if it would be more funny if they canceled the Mac pro or if they just said, Oh, here's a new rev with the M3 ultra. Have fun with that. Um, it would be, it's going to be a disaster being around you for months. If either of those things happen, at least that will be clarifying. You know, it's like, well, now I know, now I know what's up. I just, you know, go spec out a Mac studio and see what like, you know what I mean? Like I just, I'd like to have some kind of not knowing, like just being like, could be Mac bro.

1:45:09There's some vague rumors about it. Blah, blah, blah. Like I hate that. I just, let's go. I have a question for you. You, you said earlier, John, in so many words, why are they doing this big redesign now? And I think an, an A justification for that could be that they're trying to distract from the AI disaster of, you know, the last year. That's what I said. I agree. I'm trying to move on from that and posit a different answer. I'm trying to move on from this by restating it. Well, I was trying to recap. It was a while ago. Good grief, you two. I just let you two pop off for so long, which was great.

1:45:44And now you're all on my case. All right, so here we go. What I was wondering is, do you think, and there's obviously no way to know right now, but do you think that this is setting up for future hardware? Like, is this redesign, for some reason, setting up for some sort of future hardware, especially if we get the alleged iPad, like more robust windowing situation, is that setting up for the foldable phone? Are we in a situation like many years ago now, I forget what year it was, where all the phones were the exact same size, but they were like, hey, you should be able to support other sizes.

1:46:19Really? So I have one crazy idea that I think we can do it on the current hardware. I don't know if they will do it. I have one crazy idea. What if? So they built with Vision Pro. They built this entire engine to recognize the light in the room and have it affect all the stuff in the UI. what if they use the front camera on the iPhone to figure out what direction light sources are coming from among what it can see and actually add specular highlights to the glass in the UI based on the lighting in the room and how you move the phone around. That's kind of like when I was talking about translucency where they use the back camera to allow the desk underneath it to translucently show through the UI.

1:47:09uh yeah in the same i'll say the same thing to your crazy idea as i did to my own crazy idea back then um uh battery killer sorry yeah that's the only problem you have to leave the camera on and be processing that image the whole time yeah or at least at least for your thing you just have to like glance at the camera every once in a while like they could do it like part of the rumor is that there actually will be glints but any kind of glints like that across the ui that try to try to even just have a fake light direction let alone a real one i'm not sure how far they'll go in that direction because that is that's problematic to implement in a bunch of ways uh even ignoring the whole camera angle but i hope they do neither one of those i don't want them to show through the i said was the holiday of like it's like a transparent phone instead of a wallpaper what you see is what's actually underneath your phone it'll see right through your hand and that's it's a yeah i don't like please don't do that apple uh not the least of which because it will kill your battery but uh and and for casey's question about reflecting the hardware like it just kind of takes me back to the um the notched uh back books year when they made the menu bar taller we're like oh they're preparing mac os for touch when really they were just preparing it to have a taller menu bar because of the notch on the laptops um you know you should add touch to mac os eventually and if you're just redesigning everything now now would be a good time to set it up for touch not that there's any particular reverse about touch base max or anything but like you're in there anyway you already made the menu bar real big like i don't know like it just that this may be another one of those things that you'll need a leadership change to make happen only it's not so important that i care about that much but touch space max will require not require but will benefit from some changes to the mac os ui and so that is one thing i'll be looking for i'm glad you brought that up because like in the redesign everyone will be kind of squinting at and saying huh why did they choose to do this thing i mean you could squint it like the like when the vertical dialogues one of the consequences of portrait orientation dialogues on mac os is that the buttons got way bigger like when they become full width and they stack vertically those are huge and it's like wow that's a much easier touch target than the other button was does that mean touch is coming to mac os and the answer was no not now anyway but you know it is nice prep for it same thing with the bigger menu bar so i'll keep an eye out for that um i thought we're here to say uh also casey is like you remember when uh you know aqua came out the original aqua well you don't remember but original aqua had had uh had pinstripes which are an homage to the stripes in the classic mac os windows right but also the hardware like the imac had those same pinstripes do you remember when there was like a synergy between how the os looked how mac os 10 looked and how the imac looked i hope and we just did that remember thing about the patent for all the like the clear glass mac pro and everything i i don't think that's what they're doing i don't think they should do that i think it's a bad idea but it is it did remind me of that like there's a synergy it's like this os is preparing for hardware so the the os is frosted glass and guess what the iphone 20 is also frosted glass front and back i don't think they're gonna do that but uh that would be another synergy there but yeah it is something to be looking at like with the size classes looking at future we already know the folding phones coming i don't think they need to do anything to ios to make it expand to folding phone proportions but it will be interesting to look in the new apis and like the symbols they forget to strip out to see if you can find ones that are referencing the uh the alleged in development apple folding phone because even though i think most ios apps will be able to handle it without too much change because they're used to changing size a lot now and they also have the ipad code path for people who really want to take advantage of it surely there will also be new apis and new things to detect whether you're in that mode to make your app apple folding phone savvy uh next year's wwc or whatever the year after that all right anything else any wild cards anything that's not rumored you would like to see that you think it's plausible because i always have the plausible model there's funny things we'd like to see but they're not going to happen so i would love that multi-selection and lists especially because the callback is already supporting multiple selections like the like the modifier with like the the on drop or on move or whatever it already gives you an index set like It already supports multiple selections.

1:51:18Just the UI just doesn't. Like, oh my God, please just make that start working. Hey, at least you get to use Lists. In Switchglass, I would love to have used Lists because Lists supports reordering automatically, but no, because Switchglass goes back to like 10.12 and SwiftUI and macOS is way behind where it still is way behind where it is in iOS. I implement all that myself and I didn't do a good job. So be thankful you have what you have. All right. Thank you to our sponsors this week, Squarespace, Masterclass, and Factor. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join.

1:51:55One of the perks of membership is ATP Overtime, a weekly bonus topic only for members. You can hear it every week, plus all the other member-exclusive content we've released, like a bunch of specials and everything, by joining. This week on Overtime, we've been talking about Sky, a new AI app for macOS from the creators of Shortcuts. So this is pretty cool, I think. So we're going to be talking about that in Overtime. Join us, ATB.fm slash join to hear that and everything else. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you next week. Now the show is over They didn't even mean to begin Cause it was accidental Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental Oh it was accidental And you can find the show notes at atp.fm And if you're into Mastodon You can follow them At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's K-C-L-I-S-S A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-Marko Arman.

1:53:11S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse. It's accidental. Accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental. Accidental. Tech Podcast. So long. So I feel like we should talk about the drama of the last week. Us? And on the, well, why not? On the 29th of May, which was this past Thursday, as we record, there was a very brief post on Daring Fireball. It was brief enough that I will read the prose portion of it. The title is The Talk Show Live from WWDC 2025, Tuesday, June 10. You know, same location we're used to, same showtime, et cetera, et cetera. And John Gruber wrote, ever since I started doing these live shows from WWDC, I've kept the guests secret until showtime.

1:54:04I'm still doing that this year, but in recent years, the guests have seemed a bit predictable. Senior executives from Apple. This year, I again extended my usual invitation to Apple, but for the first time since 2015, they declined. I think this will make a fascinating show, but I want to set everyone's expectations accordingly. I'm invigorated by this. See you at the show, I hope.

1:54:26Well, it's hard. It's hard to think of this. It's hard for me to think of this as a good look for Apple. I think it's in a lot of ways, a good look for John, but it's, it's hard for me to see how this is a good look for Apple. And it's hard, you know, as, as, as a person, as a human being, it's hard for me not to assume that they're just grumpy with the community right now. And, and I don't know what to make of this, but Marco, you had some thoughts. You had enough thoughts that miracle of miracles, you actually did this thing. you posted to your blog. I don't even know what to do with myself that this happened.

1:55:06All the posting I was doing is like Mark was like, I want to do that too. Right, that's what it was. You were at under one per year, surely average. Oh, yeah. And especially like anything that was not about Overcast was even less often. Right. But it was a great, great post. It really was. And actually, since I'm blowing smoke up your butt, I reread the post that you had linked to your own post live with Phil from June of 2015. which was also great and had some really great photography as well. But both of these posts I thought were excellent. But do you want to talk through what you wrote a few days ago now?

1:55:40Yeah. You know, I had a lot of mixed feelings about this. It's hard not to assume a fairly cynical outcome here that like John Gruber published a pretty scathing critique of Apple's handling of the Apple Intelligence debut last fall and the features they didn't ship and the kind of vaporware demos and promises they made, which was very unlike them. And I think, you know, rereading his Something is Rotten in the State of Cupertino post, like, I don't see anything in that that was unfair or untrue. You know, Apple screwed up pretty badly and he called him out on it. And it's hard, you know, it was definitely the most critical he has been of apple in a long time and so it's hard not to draw a line between that and say oh he publishes that it lands like it's a bombshell when when it lands and then a short time later apple doesn't want to go on stage with him like it's possible they could have other reasons you know they they're in the midst of all these you know court cases and you know disputes with regulators around the world and like they're in they're at war with everybody basically and so it would be hard to get through an interview like that if anybody's senior at apple without at least some difficult questions like it would be weird if there weren't questions about some of these things in an interview context and so maybe apple just decided they don't want to face those questions.

1:57:17Now, Gruber was a pro. He would never ask something that they wouldn't be likely to answer. Like, you know, if you when you're when you're doing some kind of interview in this context, or you have some Apple people, or an Apple person that you're interviewing, you know, like, you're not going to ask them, like, hey, what's the next iPhone look like? Or, you know, they're not going to tell you that kind of stuff. You know, certain things like certain questions like you, you kind of have to ask obliquely at certain topics, because you know that if you ask head on, they won't really be able to respond or they won't give you a useful response and everybody's time will just be wasted.

1:57:50And John Gruber is really good at navigating those politics. I'm not worried that he would not be able to navigate the difficulty of interviewing Apple at this time. It seems like Apple just didn't want to. And, you know, when I read back to, you know, I also read back what I wrote 10 years ago when Phil came on. Thank you. what a moment that was yeah like that was incredible and not only because Phil called me out from the stage but partly because of that like that it was such a great moment and it started this this 10-year run of apple you know giving executives you know to gruber to interview on stage for an hour every year and it really humanized them and it gave amazing like back you know back of the stage kind of commentary of like here's here's why we're doing some of the things we're doing and here's some more detail.

1:58:48One of my favorite dynamics that frequently took place there was you get Craig Federighi up there. Usually he was not, I don't think he was ever there by himself. He was always there either with Phil or later with Greg Joswiak or other people. So you get Federighi up there and Federighi is a nerd's nerd. You could always tell. This is not somebody who was just like he didn't rise through the ranks of just being a manager. He's an engineer. Like he's deep in it. He knows his stuff. He is a programmer. He knows the tech angles. And so you get him on stage and he acts like any nerd acts. He kind of looks down in his lap for a while until you activate his nerd energy by asking a nerdy question.

1:59:36then he lights up and gives you an enthusiastic honest but still pr safe answer to what you asked that always shows in you know with with care like he was never like you know leaking secrets but always kind of shows with like a little bit of seasoning of like here's a little bit extra for you here's something you didn't you didn't know yet about how we do here's a neat little trick of what we're doing that we didn't announce in the keynote because it didn't fit or wasn't the right audience or whatever. Here's a little technical detail, or here's why this was hard, or here's some of the challenges we face.

2:00:13It was so humanizing, and it was such a gift to our community of enthusiasts and fans and nerds and developers. And nothing bad ever came from those. There was, like, every time I would go the next day and look on, you know, MacRumors or whatever, or the New York Times or, you know, Wall Street Journal, see, like, was there any press about this at all? And there almost never was. Maybe there'd be one article like a MacRumor saying, hey, this thing happened, here's the link where you can watch it on YouTube or whatever. But there was almost, there was never any bad press from it. There was usually only a small amount of good press, and it was therefore kind of just like, here's a nice thing Apple does for the community, and for the nerds who care about some of these details, here's some answers, here's a fun thing to watch, and have a more human connection.

2:01:03The keynotes and the entire content of modern WBDC is severely lacking in human connection to the developers. Because as Apple has gotten bigger, these things have gotten more corporate, the keynote videos have had all humanity stripped out of them. There is none left. In almost any Apple presentation now, that's pretty much all of it. We're getting all these produced, sanitized, polished videos that might as well be AI generated. Everyone is so on rails. They're so scripted. They're so tight. There is zero humanity in those videos, except for the parts where they show all the developers who cured cancer.

2:01:49But the actual Apple people, when they speak about their products and whatever, there is just no humanity left. And so I feel like this was a rare outlet to see some of that, to get some of that, because these are all humans. They're good people trying to do good things. And it's good to see that, for them to stop doing this. I could see maybe a calculation. Maybe they saw what I was saying a minute ago of like, well, it never generated that much press. Maybe they saw that as like, well, it's not worth it. but I think it was worth it because one of the best compliments that I've ever gotten and I think the two of you have heard this as well is that we've heard before that even though our show doesn't have the biggest numbers in the world like we're not Joe Rogan or anything close what we've heard though is that it isn't how many people listen it's who listens that we have a really good audience We have a really relevant audience.

2:02:53We have an audience that maybe we are more influential or we reach influential places more so than average. And that's an amazing compliment. It's an amazing place to be. We've been told that over the years a few times. And it seems, you know, not to toot our own horns, it seems correct based on what we have been able to pick up from our very little information that we have. And I think the talk show, first of all, serves a very similar audience, probably a bigger one. but second of all I think that the value of the execs doing that every year it's not so much that they're not reaching as many people as like some YouTuber it's who they're reaching I think that has a lot of value and it's I'm very disappointed that that era has come to an end for whatever reason whether it's a good reason I don't quite know what that would be or whether it's a cynical reason like they're Maddo Gruber for something as Ron and Cupertino.

2:03:49I don't think this was a wise choice by Apple. I think they have I think they're ending something that didn't need to end that had value that maybe they are not accounting for. And I'm sad to see it go. And we'll see what they replace it with. What I suspect, honestly, based on how trends have been going, I suspect we are not going to see anything where Apple's being asked like kind of, you know, arbitrary free-form questions by people who are not like really soft interviews. Like what they did last year, they had this weird iJustine kind of fake talk show that they hosted on campus. It was like the Samsung talk show.

2:04:37Like it was like, let's copy the talk. No offense to iJustine. I like her other work. But like it was like it looked so much like uncomfortably like the talk show it was really weird and it and it was apple hosted on apple's campus and it was basically i justine being john gruber but like with apple execs on stage before the real talk show and it was kind of softball like it there was like no it was basically like the interview equivalent of like hey everything you just did in the keynote tell me more about that and then you know the interviewees you know the apple executive well as a matter of fact we took privacy very seriously like it was just it was it was almost as stripped of humanity as their keynote videos are so there really wasn't any any real value to that like it didn't it didn't give any additional insight into the people and how they made these decisions and cool stuff we didn't know about like like we got from the talk show it didn't have any of that it had none of the personality um and again and i don't blame my justine for this i i it seemed like it was really the format and the situation were responsible for that not the not the interviewer in particular um but also like john gruber's a good interviewer and like a really good interviewer and we see that in how he's handled these situations we see like the people at apple you know again you you can't ask them really really you know direct hard questions they won't answer them so you kind of have to dance around you kind of have to work on implication you kind of have to like you know let craig kind of smile at you and not answer the question and everybody in the audience laughs and everyone kind of knows what he's saying like you kind of have to allow for a lot of that you know um and i what i hope apple does is reconsider this and and you know get back next year uh i don't think they will i think i think this is over for good i think what we will see instead is a whole bunch of kind of like softball, you know, quick hits on YouTubers.

2:06:36And that's probably going to be it. And it's going to be nothing interesting. There's going to be, you know, nothing will really be said that wasn't already said in the keynote. We will get no meaningful insights or it'll be like little, little PR hand selected anecdotes. Well, actually, yes, here's how we thought about customer satisfaction. Like it's going to be, I think, really bland and that's a shame because gruber's talk shows were never bland and they were very humanizing and i'm i'm gonna miss them i feel like this year like it's actually one of the most important years in a long time for apple to speak to its developers at its developer conference i know that sounds dumb like isn't that what they always do but like really speak to the developers like and this is not i'm not saying they're going to say they change nothing like they're not changing anything no policy is changing this is not a reconciliation this is not a new deal for developers like it's none of that it's just they're changing absolutely nothing it's like that's our baseline assumption right even so it's the most important time for a pr perspective for apple to get a chance to talk to developers quote-unquote directly to make their case for whatever whatever their case is this is why we're doing what we're doing like again you don't have to change a single thing nothing changes they're just like when there's dissatisfaction one of the ways you can mitigate that is let's talk about it let's communicate let's let's make you feel like we see you and recognize you and understand your concerns like again we're not announcing anything or whatever but like let's talk about it the talk show was one of the places where that took place it was essentially giving the the most enthusiastic of your developers access to your executives by proxy by having quote one of them up on stage talking to the people about some of the things that you would talk about if you were on stage with them.

2:08:24And it's a very narrow audience. It is very, you know, it's very niche. It is literally an audience of people who would go to WWDC in person, which was, you know, a few thousand people, right? As opposed to the billions that have Apple's products. That's one of the reasons the iJustine thing was so ill-considered, because like iJustine's audience is a mass audience. But she did it on stage in front of attendees at WWDC and not just attendees, press attendees at WWDC. And it's like, well, that is like an audience mismatch a little bit. Like her audience is millions and millions of regular people.

2:08:58Millions and millions of regular people are never going to watch her talk to a bunch of Apple executives whose names they don't know. We know their names and what they're doing and what their products are or whatever. Like it's a it's a mismatch. So I don't fault her for that. But like it's the you know, that's the wrong person to pick to talk. And like if they want to have her interview them, by all means, do it. she'll interview them and and put it on her channel and show it to millions of people that's great but why do we have to be there sitting in a theater watching it happen because that's not what we want to see we want to see john gruber asking questions because we are this weird little narrow slice of people so choosing this year to not go on john gruber's show and have him ask you questions can go one of you the two ways one they're managed john gruber or whatever they didn't didn't want to do it but they plan to do that same thing just with somebody else that is an unfortunate reality of dealing with companies and access and blah blah blah then maybe you know or not even like maybe it was not even maybe they just told john was like oh we're going a different direction this year and they just pick a different person like you can't get mad about that it's like well he had it for 10 years maybe someone will give someone else a chance but you would hope is that like that they would still feel like all right we're gonna we're gonna talk to mkbhd we're gonna talk to cnbc we're gonna talk to the guy from usa today we're gonna talk to wall street journal and new york times well like they got their list of like these executives you know of these people and some are way down the list is like oh yeah and we'll send some people to talk to these super nerds who actually come to wwc and historically they had done that by letting john gruber ask them questions for the past 10 years but maybe like oh instead of john this year we're gonna go with somebody else or whatever that is bad for john and it's bad for us because we like john but if they still do that if they still feel the need like we need to talk directly to our most hardcore developers and to do all the stuff that you just said marco to humanize the people behind the decisions and the things and like maybe there's someone else who fills that role that someone else cannot be like mkbhd his he talks to a mass audience of people who are not apple developers like that's not his audience you're already talking to him to reach his people which is like the vast majority of customers in the world who buy your products you're talking to the world so you're generally talking to your times they all have their audiences and i get that the talk show audience is the tiniest slice of a tiny little pie of this little obscure corner or whatever but i think the reason they did it for 10 years is like you were saying about our show it's like okay so the audience may be tiny but it is actually a disproportionately important audience to you i would say it's again it's the audience of people who show up at wwc you're the not only just your developers because they have millions of developers but the developers who care so much that they're going to fly from wherever they are in the world to california to at this point see you play a video that everyone else can see at the same time right those are pretty hardcore people and sometimes you talking to your that your most hardcore base especially when that base has some dissatisfaction with you is an important thing to do and so if they're not going to do it through john i really hope they're just not going to do it period because of all the audience in the world that like as it relates to apple i think that tiny slice is the most dissatisfied right now yeah maybe people mad about the ios 18 photos app but they'll get over it right like in general most people like apple like their products there are millions and millions of customers like them which group is the most dissatisfied it's this narrow slice of their most enthusiastic developers and like when they get dissatisfied that's i would think that if i worked in pr on apple i'd be like this is why you pay me this is my job i'm going to go out there and i'm going to smooth this over i'm going to convince them that all the things that they're grumpy about aren't actually as bad as they are.

2:12:32And we hear like, again, no policy changes, no like new deal for developers. Your job is to go out there and sell what you're doing. Like, oh, people are mad, but I'm going to explain it in a way that makes them less mad. And it boggles my mind that they would just choose actually this year of all years, we're just not going to talk to those people at all. Because that is not going to make the relationship better at all, right? You have to talk to them. You don't have to talk to them with John Gerber. Fine, find somebody else. but the somebody else should be a John Gruber-ish person, right? Somebody who speaks to, like, the people who are at the talk show live are an even narrower subset of the people who are at WWDC, which is a very narrow subset of all the developers, you know, those people.

2:13:15And I'm not saying those are the most important people. Like, obviously, it's way more important to talk to the New York Times. Like, I get it, right? But they've been doing it for 10 years. It just is, I cannot believe that they would say, eh, we're just not going to do that at all anymore. and so i really hope uh that i mean it's bad for john if they just swap him out for somebody else i really hope they do talk to somebody who fills that role and because of the circle we travel in travel and we'd flatter ourselves to say well if they do talk to someone like that wouldn't we know who it is because we kind of know all the people in those circles but you know maybe not like not every youtuber is uh mkbhd or i justine with like millions and millions of regular people watching there are youtubers that are more narrowly focused on tech enthusiasts and developers so maybe they'll pick one of them and have them ask questions and it's not even to say that you know uh that mkbhd or ijustine or any of those people couldn't ask more pointed and technical questions they just tend to focus their content on a broader audience which is wise when you have such a big audience you know if they did oh you get 10 minutes with tim cook and they talk about some really obscure technical thing that millions of people watch and go why the heck did he ask those questions i don't know what he was talking about but anyway i hope i i don't know anything about what is actually happening but i hope we see some of those same apple executives that we normally see talking to somebody who is not an anchor on cnbc who is not the new york times reporter who is not even even you know joanna stern like she could ask amazing questions too but she's probably going to focus a little more broadly because the wall street journal is not uh you know a technical paper it's you know it's not even like arstechnic or something right so boy i hope i hope they just don't stop talking to this group entirely because i think that's not tenable like i think that's that's a poor strategy that's a poor pr strategy and maybe it's a rebuilding year for pr too maybe they're like we don't trust ourselves to talk to anybody this year but man like put out a statement or something we were sad that we couldn't do the talk show this year but maybe we'll see you next year because it's so like it is so important for this relationship for them to come out and have a chance to I'm not going to say explain themselves but have a chance to re-engage like to stay engaged with their most hardcore developers because there's a little bit of bad blood there and even if no one changes their position and no one changes any policies and no one does anything, you can still make things better by just talking about it and I hope that happens in some form.

2:15:41I don't know, we'll see what happens. I mean certainly Certainly, like you said, we've heard no rumblings or rumors or anything like that, that there's any, you know, stand in or de facto John Gruber that's taking over. But I don't know, just it's a bummer. I'm really sad that this is no longer a thing because I really, obviously John is a friend, but I genuinely believe that he did an impeccable job of riding the line between, you know, asking interesting and to a degree challenging questions, but not asking the ones, as you said, Marco, that they're never going to answer. It's just never going to happen.

2:16:16And so I miss, I feel like John was uniquely qualified to interview these executives because he really did strike an incredible balance. And I feel like every single WWDC for the last 10 years, I watched the talk show often lucky enough to do so in person. And I always got a tidbit that I didn't know before and that I found to be genuinely fascinating. and maybe that's achievable by other people, but I do think that John was just so uniquely good at it and it really bums me out that it's not a thing or at least not a thing this year. And hopefully I don't have to say not a thing anymore. Yeah, the big thing that John had going for him from our perspective is that many of the things that we are interested in and concerned about, he's also interested and concerned about.

2:17:02And so that's what he'll ask about. And that's just not true of people with different audiences. Like you want someone up on stage to ask about the thing that I want to know about, even if it's really weird and obscure. And that would tend to happen with John. And not to say that we're representative of all developers, because I bet there are a bunch of developers who are like, let's say, game developers who John never asked the questions that they wanted to hear asked, right? So it's narrow slices within slices within slices. But still, it's good to have somebody who I feel like is your proxy who gets to interact with executives who maybe has a chance of asking a thing that you're interested in hearing the answer to.

2:17:39Uh, and that repeats, that's kind of like a fractal WWC. Like that's what going to labs means. Back when there was more in-person things and in-person sessions, you could find people who worked on the framework that you're interested in and talk to them. That used to be one of the beautiful things about WWC, but going all the way up to the top, it is good to extend that, not just to the rank and file people in labs and stuff, but all the way up to the big executives, because some questions are the bigger questions that an executive should address. And some of the smaller questions, like when is multiple selections coming to less than swift ui and wc should cover that whole range uh and it'll it'll be a shame to see it'll be a shame for us to see like that we can talk to the engineers and stuff in labs but that the things that we care about will never be asked again to executives because apple just doesn't see any benefit in answering those questions and doesn't value our relationship enough to to uh like the intangibles that marco was talking about to like go up there and appear human and uh show that you know show enthusiasm interest and say we're we're not so uh you know we're actually what's the cliche that i'm blowing here casey i don't know i'm asking you to help me i i have no idea we are the same you and i when like the villain says to the hero we're not so different you and me there yeah we're not so different you and i that's that's what we need from them and it seems like we're not going to get it this year Beep beep beep.