655: Shorts-Compatible Body Type

29:28Joseph writes, the advisor mentor of a friend of mine who is a business school professor wrote this book, Productive Tensions by Christopher B. Bingham and Rory M. McDonald, how every leader can tackle innovation's toughest trade-offs. And we'll put a link to the MIT Press where this apparently can be found. When I was looking this up to grab the link, I was amused that Jobs got a call out in the blurb, quote, should leaders aim for Steve Jobs' level genius, shower their projects with resources, or lean in to luck and embrace uncertainty? None of the above, say Christopher Bingham and Rory McDonald.

29:59I work or have worked in leadership roles of VC-backed startups, and this is one of the best things I've read in years. So I guess there are books on this topic. We just didn't know them. So thank you, Joseph, for sending one in. Exactly. So it is that time of year. It is one of my favorite segments to do on the show. It is something that Marco came up with, I want to say three or four years ago, maybe. Marco, can you introduce this for us, please? Yes. As you all know, I have worked in so many big corporate jobs and I have managed so many people. I've been in so many hiring and supervising roles that I'm very familiar with the trappings of big company life.

30:37And of course, human resources, also one of my specialties. And one of the things that you often get at a big company when somebody is quitting, you might have an exit interview. And you might say, hey, you know, we just want to know, like, you know, what, in retrospect, like, how did this go for you? What, how could we improve maybe, you know, what, you know, what do you think we can do better for future people who work here? Or why did you choose to leave? Things like that. Are we going to make the iPhone 16 sign a non-disparagement agreement? So as Casey mentioned, a few years back, I started having us do exit interviews right before the new iPhone is introduced for the outgoing model.

31:20So most people are so focused on whatever is the new one coming that we don't really talk about like hey like a few months or years into owning something like how was it in retrospect that's what this segment is so on the eve of the iphone 16 uh lineup getting replaced um casey and i have john you don't have one right this one do i've got a 16 pro that's right okay this was your i lose track of your phone years same even number Okay. So we all have iPhone 16s Pro. And so how have they been? I think for me, mine has been pretty good, although it has not been perfect. This past weekend, we went back to our neighborhood pool for the final time to do Labor Day, which is when most pools in America tend to shut down.

32:13And so I spent all day outside on what was not an exceedingly warm day, but it was a sunny day. and the same thing that has plagued iPhones for the last two or three years or potentially even more plagues my iPhone 16 Pro. It is better in the 16 Pro than it has been, but it's still not great. And what that is, is if you use your phone in direct sunlight for more than about 30 seconds, it goes from very bright to slightly bright to I can see it to is it on to, oh no, it's useless. And this all happens in the span of one to two minutes. And it used to be almost instant that it jumped from, yes, I can see, oh, no, never mind.

32:50But it's now gotten to the point that it takes a couple of minutes. But that is my number one far and away gripe with my phone, is that if I try to use it in the summer outside in direct sunlight, it is nigh impossible to use it for more than just a couple of minutes. And I've understood that this can also affect video capture. And I've not personally witnessed this, but my understanding is if the thing gets too hot, It will also be unable to or unwilling, perhaps, to record high frame rate video. It just drives me bananas. I have a couple other minor things to whine about and then some complimentary things to say.

33:23But Marco, as someone who lives at the beach in the summer, do you also find this to be a problem? I find it to be a problem lots of places, lots of times. I mean, even just in the car, you know, anywhere that you are outside. I mean, even like, you know, on walks, you know, if I'm outside in the summertime, if i'm using my phone um you know if i'm like you know looking stuff up or reading something on the walk i mean like i'm gonna face this problem um certainly as i'm if i like you know take the train in the summer and i have i'm using my phone just sitting next to me on the seat just for tethering um that will often make the phone go into like the high thermal level uh you know thresholds and start and start backing off the screen or not charging past you know 75 80 percent or whatever like and so the point we're like so all summer i've you know whenever i like you know take the train or the ferry somewhere are you bringing your fan of course i am i have and it's it's i mean this is a ridiculous thing so i plug in two cables to my macbook pro um one cable goes to the fan that has the the thermoelectric peltier element and so i have like the peltier fan which is an absurd way to keep a phone cool because it's so insanely wasteful power but it does work and then i have a second cable plugged into the phone to keep itself charged um while i'm using it as my you know tethering modem for like an entire train or ferry ride and so it does work it destroys the laptop battery to be powering both these things especially that it's you know After like an hour on the train or something, it takes away like a quarter or a third of the MacBook's battery.

35:08But it does work and nothing else does. If you don't use the cooling fan in that configuration, the phone will keep tethering, but it will not charge itself. At least it won't go past like 75%, 80%. And that's just sitting on the seat next to me, not even being actively used. So the screen of the phone is off, and it still can't keep itself from being warm if any internal parts are being used. So I would say absolutely the iPhone 16 Pro has horrendous thermals. Now, we'll talk about this in a little bit. The 17 Pro is rumored to have this vapor chamber thing that we talked about last week. But I don't think that's going to help this particular problem in isolation.

35:57because what you're doing, the iPhone 16 Pro is generating a lot of heat and it needs pretty active cooling to keep itself from doing that. The vapor chamber does not make the phone generate less heat. It just is possibly a more effective way to move the heat off of the SoC into something that will dissipate it like the back casing of the phone or whatever. It somehow dissipate the heat into some larger mass or the air. That's the point. So it can move the heat better, which helps. You do need the heat to be moved. But the way to solve this problem is to have the phone create less heat in the first place.

36:37Because if you're just moving the heat to the case more effectively, the 16 Pro is already very hot in your hand. So that might not be the main problem there. The main problem might just be it's making too much heat. And phones, unless you have my ridiculous fan kind of thing, phones don't have active cooling. There's no fan blowing air. So you're just dependent on radiating the heat out of the case into the air. One major problem with that, though, is cases. People will stick another case around their phone pretty commonly, and that acts as a giant insulator of heat. So I think the best way to solve this kind of problem is not to increase the cooling system inside the phone.

37:24because all you can do is move the heat faster outside, but there's nowhere for it to go for most people with cases around their phones. So the better solution to this is to have chips that don't use that much power. That is ultimately the solution that we actually need, is lower thermal peaks of these guts in these phones. I mean, they're always trying to increase the process density and have them use less power and all that stuff. And we've been on 3 nanometer for a while and will continue to be, so there hasn't been any changes for the past few years. But I will say that moving the heat is actually a really important part because I'm not sure about the screen, but for the SoC itself, the big problem has been for a decade now.

38:04Not so much the total amount, but how concentrated it is in some very tiny areas on the SoC. So merely moving it one centimeter away from where it originated can help the SoC not have to throttle down because it's not so much the total amount of heat. is the fact that it's all concentrated around this tiny region of the SoC where the GPU is when you're playing a game or something. So moving it, even just a little tiny bit, actually is a huge win for sustained throughput on the SoC. I don't know why the screens are going off. I would imagine that has to do with the screen itself and nothing to do with, like, I don't think, first of all, I don't think the vapor chamber thing is supposed to be cooling the screen.

38:40I don't know if the screen is the thing gets hot. Is it the display controller? Like, I don't know. I don't know what the deal is with the screen but for the soc i think it's very much like it has been for many years now which is concentrated areas of heat if you could just disperse that or move it like an inch away that lets you not have to throttle the soc as much anyway we'll see like it's not it's not like apple's the first person to put a vapor chamber cooler on a phone android phones have them for ages now um and apparently they are useful and having an aluminum case will also help but casey had said the 16 pro was better than his predecessor predecessor phones for the screen dimming although it was still unacceptable so it seems like they're moving in the right direction i can't imagine the vapor chamber hurting i also can't imagine the much larger volume of aluminum in the new phones hurting but again we'll talk about that when we get to the phones but yeah the trend seems to be in the right direction i personally on my 16 pro i don't know if i just don't use it in the sun as much as you do i think the main factor because marco mentioned the car is like you know when i use it on like dog walks and stuff mostly it's in my pocket playing podcast occasionally i take it out to change tracks or answer a phone call or something like that um i guess it's i'm not in direct sunlight long enough for it to matter i do take my phone to the beach i have used it at the beach but at the beach i'm under a beach umbrella so it's also fine there but in the car uh my non-fancy car has a uh phone mount a mag safe phone mount clipped to the ventilation thing and in the summertime the air conditioner is blowing literally directly on the back of my phone so i don't need a peltier cooler my entire car's air conditioner is blasting cold there on the car my phone is cold when i take it off the max safe mount from the air conditioner blasting on it so maybe that's why i don't have the problem uh in the car but yeah like i i would imagine advances in further advances in screen technology to make the screen take less power helping like the whole thing of letting the screen go down to one hertz and uh having these uh the new oled screen technology all that is probably helping but i just i honestly just don't know what it is that's causing the screen to dim if it's heat from the screen itself if it's from the display controller and the soc or it's from something else i was just total to like marco was saying total heat inside the phone because the sun is beating down on the whole thing and there's nowhere it gets like heat soaked essentially i'm not entirely sure but i'm sure people will be putting thermal cameras at the new iphones to let us know but it seems like i mean i'm not put it this way casey if we had not had any rumors of the new iphone having vapor chamber this still would have been your main complaint about the 16 pro right yeah i think so so it's just i mean it's just it's not a new problem it's just more relevant this year because we think at the apple event apple will finally talk about something that might address this factor but yeah i mean i've been i've been fussing about this for the last several years and and i think that i will continue to fuss about it uh until it gets better you know the the whining will continue until morale improves or whatever chat room asks whether the thermals on the non-pro are better i would have to imagine so just because the non-pro chip is less powerful, less power hungry.

41:36But I don't have, I don't actually have a 16 non-pro. My kids have non-pro phones. In my experience, they have been cooler than the pro phones that my wife and I have always had. But maybe that varies from year to year. Moving on from whining about thermals, I would say that generally speaking, I really, really do like this phone. The battery life on mine is not stellar, but I have a strong suspicion that that's a software issue. like I'm running something or, you know, so there's something backgrounded that's run amok or something like that. I really don't think that's a phone problem. Did you check the battery thing?

42:10If that's your suspicion? I I've glanced at it from here and there, and there's nothing obvious that jumps out at me. I should probably just reset my phone or whatever. I'm I'll do that one day, but today's not that day. I mean, I feel like if there was something run away, I think we're past the days where things could be eating your battery and have no visibility whatsoever except for in rare cases, but who knows? Yeah, I don't know. But again, that's a half-hearted complaint at most. But other than that, I mean, I really, really, really like this phone. I like the camera control a lot, and I think I'm also stealing what was said on upgrade, but I like the camera control a lot, and I would not want to give it up.

42:45However, almost the only way I use it is as an activation for the camera app and as a shutter. I do use it a fair bit for a shutter. And I absolutely, that is the way I get into the camera on my phone as I mash on the camera control button. But the amount of times I've done that like press and slide dance, I thought I was going to do that all the time. It's way too finicky for my tastes. And so I do it almost never. But that being said, if you took away the button in its entirety, I would be very sad. If it was just a literal button and not the whole slidey apparatus, I think that would be fine.

43:18and I really, really do like the camera control button. And I also like having the action button. I have set, and I think it was Marco that gave me this idea, I have the action button set to flashlight because I'm old and it's incredibly convenient. And now that I have the camera control button for the camera, I don't need to use the action button for the camera anymore. So I freaking love this setup. I really, truly do. There's no sarcasm there. And I'm really happy with that. Additionally, accepting the time when this fell out of my pocket from waist height in Aaron's car, which is 100 % my fault.

43:53And I would never expect a phone to survive that fall without a case on it. This has been extremely robust, extremely durable. Again, I'm really happy with it. I think the camera system is great. I'm sure it can be better in some ways. I don't get as bothered by the macro switchover as Mike does, which doesn't mean he's wrong. It's just I'm not nearly as bothered by it as he is. All in all, I really, really, really like this phone. I like the look of the natural titanium. I am a little scared about them going back to aluminum. I'm not sure if that's going to be better or worse, but I really, really enjoy this phone quite a bit and I'm very, very happy with it.

44:28Marco thoughts. Um, you know, so similar, you know, we, we talked about the heat and I, I am far less optimistic than John about whether the vapor chamber will solve the problems because I think frankly, that the problem is not the SOC overheating and throttling. I think the problem is the entire phone decides we have too much heat in here. Start shutting things down. Well, one of the problems is if, for example, you're a gamer, you will see that the SOC will throttle when you play games for a certain number of minutes. Like I said, I don't think the vapor chamber is going to help with the screen because I don't even know what's causing that.

45:02It's probably just heat soak with the whole phone. But even though you may not care about the SOC throttling if you're like an iPhone gamer or something and your frame rates die after two minutes into playing, you'll probably care. Although, honestly, those gamers should probably get your little fan thing. Oh, they should absolutely get my little fan thing. I'm pretty sure everyone who buys my little fan thing is a gamer, except me. No one else is, you know, tethering on a ferry. It's pretty much just me. Yeah, so anyway, and I think it's just overall, like, when you see the screen dimming and regular use out in the summertime, I think that's just, the phone is too hot and it's trying to conserve, it's trying to rescue its thermal state by doing things like hey let's dim the screen not because the screen can't operate in hot temperatures but because having the backlight this bright is generating heat that we can get rid of it's no backlight oh right it's oled well whatever i mean there kind of is in each pixel but anyway whatever well yeah fair but yeah like it's the generation of the light in the display is creating heat yeah is it because oleds do generate heat like they're not magic like yes the brighter you make them the more heat there is that's one of the things that contributes to burn it yeah um so so as for the rest of the 16 pro you know look all iphones are pretty good most of the time these days and so these are very minor complaints in the grand scheme of things i do wish the phone was was i wouldn't i wouldn't say thinner but i do wish the phone was lighter the the phones are not as heavy as the i believe that was it the one of the steel band yeah like those were heavier but this phone is still it's still a heavy phone and like i don't notice it as much in the winter months when i'm wearing like you know jeans but you certainly notice it when you're wearing shorts in the summertime and i know shorts are a compromise in lots of ways they certainly are not attractive uh they certainly are not as functional in certain ways however i expect comfort from at least my phone like if i'm gonna look stupid wearing shorts at least my phone can feel good in my pocket what do you have against shorts shorts are fine they're not it's impossible to look good wearing shorts especially if you are short yourself all right well anyway i i also pick the uh i also sort of rate the quality of my shorts as how well they stand up to a phone being in one of the front pockets because some of my shorts just like the the waistband isn't up to the task and it kind of like tugs it down but other ones hold firm and also to casey's point about dropping his thing out of his pocket.

47:29I do want a pocket that can completely swallow the phone. And yes, I know this is way worse for women's shorts. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, women's clothing in general is generally not made to have pockets that are useful at all or even exist. But, and you, to be fair, you have a more shorts compatible body type than I do. When you are yourself not super long-legged, shorts are unflattering to say the least. Now, at least I will I will see you on this fashion thing. This is not something that ever occurred to me. Yeah. Like at least in recent years, shorts have gotten shorter by by fashion. And so, like, look, fellow short men out there, get the shortest shorts you can tolerate fashion wise because they will make your legs look less short.

48:16And for God's sake, don't get cargo anything ever. Get rid of cargo and shorten them and they will look less stupid. However, shorts always look a little bit stupid. But anyway, what I'm looking for out of the 17 is basically what I didn't get out of the 16. I want weight savings basically in the phone. So it's not such a brick flopping around in my pocket. Now, ideally, it would also help with those thermal issues. And ideally, I know this is kind of competing with those other things. I would love a better telephoto camera. I really don't like the 5X camera. But I am not – like as I waffle about whether I should get the Air, we'll see what happens with whatever they announce next week.

48:57But I checked. Like I took 414 pictures with the 5X camera in the past year. That's not nothing. And when I look at those pictures on my Mac, like on a big screen, they're terrible. They're not good pictures. They're so much lower quality than what I get out of the 1X lens. It's night and day difference. Like the 1X pictures are pretty respectable. The 5X pictures, they only look good when they're small. Like if you even just show them full screen on an iPhone, it's pretty rough and they certainly don't stand up to full screen on anything larger. But here's the actual comparison though for the 5X, which is why it exists.

49:42What it's competing against is the thing that we all see where someone is, their kid is up on stage playing the clarinet. And they bring up their phone on the one and only 1X camera or whatever. And what do they do? They pinch to zoom until they do a digital zoom of like 20X. And then they take a picture. And compared to that, the 5X looks amazing. Yeah, this is Aaron every time. And it drives me absolutely. The iPhone does the right thing, I believe. It will switch to the 5X camera. But that's what the 5X is competing against. It's competing against purely digital zoom from way farther away, like zoom distance.

50:16And so I agree. The 5X doesn't look good. but I do think it looks better than a 2x than the old 2x pinch to zoom to five does it look better than the old 3x pinch to zoom to five maybe probably still but I just see so many people who I don't know they just don't care about what the pictures look like after the fact but who just zoom an insane distance by pinching on their phone and then they'll take that picture I'm like you might as well just take a picture of a Monet because that's what you're getting yeah yes i mean and granted like i'm happy to have it when i do want it and what i mainly like the 5x4 like the function functionality i like just being able to have that kind of reach of like if something's really far away and i want to get an okay picture of it that's great um but what i really like the 5x4 is the different perspective it can offer on things by being a longer lens, you know, it treats angles and background compression differently, very differently than the 1x lens does.

51:11And so it's not that I object to having that reach. I just wish it was, I wish I had fewer compromises. So I am overall happy with the camera system in terms of the reach it has. But there's obvious room for improvement. Like for instance, what if I want something that's about 4x of a perspective i have no good option right now the because the 5x lens is too far zoomed in for that just take nine 5x pictures and stitch them together right and so like you know what i have to do if i want that is just do a 4x digital zoom basically on the 1x which you know that starts to be pretty rough on the on the quality as well um so we've heard different rumors about like you know maybe doing some kind of you know different combination of focal lengths maybe having like similar to how right now they have the the uh the 1x lens they simulate a 2x by center cropping it that is not horrendous it's not good but it's not horrendous um so i know there's been some rumors that maybe they'll change the wide to like a 3.5 and then simulate a 7 by doing the same trick on that i think that kind of thing would ultimately be better than what we have now with the one and five basically and nothing in between um but we'll see uh so anyway back to the this is a song about the iphone 16 um it's been fine um except for the thermals that's been really bad um but otherwise it's been a perfectly fine phone i don't have a lot of criticism about it.

52:49As usual, it's all about the cameras for me. And I still don't love the default iPhone photo rendering. But, you know, we have so many apps now to do things like, you know, we have Obscura, we have Halide, we have the built-in photo styles in the iPhone camera app. So like that can get away from a lot of that stuff for you. So I don't know. I think the iPhone 16 has been a perfectly serviceable phone it's been perfectly fine but i'm looking forward to a lot of what's rumored about the 17 line yeah i i'm i'm trying not to jump ahead myself but i am extremely intrigued by this rumored 17 air until they until the rumors say oh but it'll only have one lens and i know you were saying this earlier but i don't know if that's a trade-off i'm willing to make we shall see and uh i don't know but in general i've like i said i'm very much like this phone.

53:43Marco, you seem a little bit blase about it. John, what is your exit interview? Yeah, to start, I'll just say that like, so I keep my phones for two years. So I'm going to continue using this phone for one more year. So this is just the midway point in the life of my phone. And I have to say, like I always say, for the past many years, that it's a good phone. Like we take it for granted that every year Apple will come out with an iPhone that will be good. And just this thing has performed the job that it needed to as a phone for me, pretty much problem free it does all this stuff it's better than my previous phone and you know as someone who is much a much bigger fan of the mac i don't take that for granted anymore so you know i think we all basically agree like the iphone it's a good phone uh we're picking nits here but like in general it's doing its job um for the specifics of the 16 i had double checked this before we came on the show of like the camera control like that was introduced on the 16 pro right like that didn't do this before because the camera control is so strange like in the history of i totally forgot to mention the camera control the history of the apple things because i mean we we said this when it came out and i'll say a year after it's come out and you basically said the same thing casey our our position on it hasn't changed because it is just as strange as it was then they introduced the camera control as a new button on the phone which is a rare thing anyway and it has so many things that you could do with it and this was the version 1.0 that's why i had to check like is it was it really the 16 pro that introduced the camera control because it's got so many functions and the other thing the other thing that boggles my mind in a good way basically is that they introduced the camera control with a million functions and the os came pretty quickly after release of the of the hardware with a million options that you could remove or disable those million functions if you didn't want them and kind of like casey what i came down to after a year of use on on the camera control is i don't want to use almost all the functions that it provides but i will say that it is well sized and positioned to be a better shutter control essentially for the camera and that is the only thing i use the camera control for it's a touch sensitive button it's pressure sensitive you can do half presses you can swipe i don't use any of that and i slowly disabled those features as i found that i wasn't using them because i wouldn't use them but then i would accidentally activate them and then i would go into settings and disable it repeat until it is like the world's most expensive single digital button press button that I use to launch the camera app and to activate the shutter occasionally on the camera app, which I don't think is particularly a success of the feature.

56:14So I kind of agree with Apple trying to take some cost out of that there. Surely Apple has usage numbers. How many people are using the swipey thing? How many people are using the half press versus how many people are just mashing on that button to get to the camera? So I wonder how long that button will remain as fancy as it is, even though the rumors have it out to the 18. Still retaining all its functionality, but I want to give Apple kudos for launching a very complicated hardware thing with a million features that also providing the software to turn off those features individually, which is so un-Apple-like because normally they introduce something simple and then build on it over years and the software lags behind.

56:47And that wasn't the case with the camera control. I generally think it's a failed experiment, except for the most important part, which is should the phone have a big button in that position? And I think the answer is yes. Yeah, like that's about how I use it as well like i i turned off all of the actual dynamic features of it it is a button that opens the camera app i don't even use it as a shutter it's just a button that opens the camera i'd use it as a shutter occasionally sometimes especially if i'm like trying to take pictures when the dog is doing something cute and i only have like one hand free or whatever i want to get it at a weird angle like i'm not as good as the kids are with like you know the kid grip where they have the phone basically like between their pinky and their pointer finger where their thumb presses the on shutter button have you seen kids do that it's very precarious but anyway kids that just like we have like save for web clause for people old school photoshop people kids have the ability to point a phone camera at something and press the on-screen shutter button in positions that i could never do it so i very often use the shutter button especially like when i'm doing like left handed or something to get cute pictures of the dog or someone or something like that anyway i yeah it's weird but i'm i'm glad my phone has it the case situation was a problem like you know i finally found a case with the pass-through camera control leather and blah blah blah and i'll have it for the next year that's great i didn't like it when it was just a big hole there i do accidentally press it more than i thought i would but whatever whatever they've done with the accidental presses the accidental presses basically end up being not harmful to me i'm still taking more inadvertent screenshots than i am taking inadvertent camera shots with the camera control button i think this is also my first film with the action button and i went back and forth on what that was going to be for a while i had it launching the camera but the camera control took over that so now as i've said in past shows i launched the whole foods app with it because i live within walking distance of the whole foods and to bring up the little qr code so amazon can track everything you buy uh that's i use the the uh action button for that and you know i could live without the action button it's fine but uh it's i found a use for it that is handy for me in terms of battery life i tried an experiment with this phone this is the first phone that i've owned that have this feature because i think the my previous hardware the os didn't support this but i when i got the phone if you go back and listen to that episode i put it on 80 charge limit in like the battery settings oh which i don't charge my phone to more than 80 you can of course override that on a 24-hour basis or whatever and like do that i did override it once or twice when i was like going on like long trips or whatever i can't even remember what i overrode it for but a few times i did override and say i want 100 i think it was maybe when i was flying i want 100 because i'm going to go to the airport and do all this stuff and i'm not going to be charging.

59:23So I've, I've, I think that's the only time I've done is when I've done airport trips, but every other time I've just been charging to 80%. Um, and this is the first time at the one year mark that, uh, Apple's iOS battery health thing says my battery health is 100 % or maximum charge, 100 % or whatever. Um, I've never had that before. Maximum capacity, 100 % cycle count 204, which is low maybe for a phone that I've owned for a year. Um, the way I'm able to get away with 80 % charge. I don't think most people could get away with it. But the reason I was, I work from home. When I'm in the shower, I put my phone on the charger.

59:57When I'm making dinner in the kitchen, I put my phone on the charger. Like I'm always near chargers. And when I know my phone is not going to be on me, I put it on, put it onto one of the plug it into one of the many chargers. I don't do MagSafe charging at all, except in the car. So all of that contributes to, I've never had to worry about battery life. The battery is just, it's, it seems to be infinite, but it's mostly because of the way i'm living but i will say that um treating my battery this way only ever charging it to 80 and maintaining the uh the battery life is probably going to make this a better hand-me-down phone to some kids someday then for example my wife's phones where she plays pokemon go and slaughters the battery every single day so is she still traveling with like 17 battery packs and 13 different phones yes she did mention by the way she has her she has an iphone 16 non-pro for work but she doesn't really use it enough to comment on it but she does say it doesn't get as hot as her 15 pro um she'll be getting a new phone this year so we'll see how that goes so anyway i i don't think the 16 pro has some amazing battery or anything but i'm i'm glad that it supports the 80 battery limit which again my previous two-year-old phone did not and i would say that if you think your sort of charging regime can support this do it because it will just make your like on the days when i did need to go to 100 it was like infinite battery it's like that extra 20 % was just waiting there for me to use it.

1:01:16It's, it's better for the battery not to charge it to full. It's better for the battery not to drain it to full. Um, so yeah. Um, but otherwise I'm, I've been happy with it. Uh, I think I'll be perfectly happy with it for another year. I kind of feel like I know for the past two years, I've been complaining about the camera mesa and I think they should solve the problem. And this year they've solved, they're going to solve it in a weird way that I don't really approve of, but at least they did something different. So I do feel like the 16 Pro is kind of the end of the old design of trying to pretend that the cameras are in the corner.

1:01:46Um, and the cameras do keep getting a little bit bigger. Uh, but anyway, I'll think I'll be happy to keep this one. And I'm hoping the 18 is a more, not going to say a more radical departure than the new phones that are coming out soon, but maybe a different departure. But, uh, but yeah, overall, I've been happy with it and we'll continue to be happy with it for the next year. do you think the kid that gets the phone handed down to them will appreciate at all your battery discipline i mean maybe because a lot of times we've handed down phones to the kids like in the old days we would get the battery replaced back when that was cheap to do like when we handed down like the iphone 5 to some kid or something we got a fresh battery at the apple store before we handed it down to them because the battery was just so dead they were so the battery was just so tiny back when the phones were tiny like that uh and they'd definitely appreciate it my daughter she's got an iphone 12 and the battery life is so bad on that phone i mean she's had it she's had it four years of high school right um i think so that how far back the iphone 12 was anyway she's getting a 17 but they're not out yet so she's still using her iphone 12 and her battery life is so terrible and also her charging discipline is so terrible that it combines to her phone is constantly like running out of power so new phones are coming to the syracuse household uh very soon just not for me so i'm sorry both girls will be getting new phones but neither my son will be getting a new phone too as part of his i don't remember what it's for i think it was like a christmas price like a delayed Christmas present for him.

1:03:09So yeah, we're getting two iPhone 17s for the kids and a 17 Pro for my wife, if that's what they ended up being called. Anyway, that's the plan right now. And neither Alex nor Kate has any desire for a Pro phone? No, my daughter explicitly does not want, she doesn't know they're Pro phones, but she explicitly said, hey, you'll get a new phone. You know, you have this one for high school, it's time for your college phone. You'll use this phone for four years of college. and she said i do not want one of those phones that has like the three cameras on the back she doesn't even know they're pro she doesn't know anything about them she just knows that she does not want that many cameras on the back of the phone on account of what don't worry you aren't getting that one anyway what is that an aesthetic thing is that yes i just it just offends her to have that much crap on the back of it but she sees our phones like when your parents have always had the pro phones and she she just doesn't like it i mean that's fair i i'm just very surprised by that and also that i mean she doesn't know this either but like obviously the non-pro phones come in much more fun colors her current iphone 12 is purple and she really likes it yeah yeah sad times man i will rejoice if the pro phones actually get uh decent colors this year which they won't no not this year man that would be incredible there might be a bronze one that's kind of orangish that's yeah that's the thing like i we you know there's the rumors of the of the quote orange color but like they're knowing apple and knowing like the kind of thing like i just think there's very little chance it's going to be a good orange like i'm i'm an orange snob there's good oranges there's bad oranges i think this is going to be like a like a copper brownish yeah it's like a vague copper bronze thing colors are the hardest to predict they have all these fake models but like colors it's it's so hard to nail them if you haven't actually seen the phones i put it this way the other pro colors that are rumored are all exactly what you expect them look like just grayish colors with a tiny hint of something and the bronzest one is the most bold.

1:04:59I can't imagine them making three very muted things and one really bright orange one. No. I mean, again, if they do, if it's a good orange, hey, I would love that. I'll eat my hat. But it doesn't seem likely. It seems much more likely that it's going to be like a brown, shiny brown. We are sponsored this week by Quince. Quince is where you can get really great clothes at even better prices. Quince has all the different kinds of fall staples you'll wear nonstop, like super soft 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at just $60. You know, if you went to the local mall and went for a 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweater there, it would be twice or maybe thrice that amount of money.

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1:07:06so let's move on to our event preview and let's talk iphones 17 maybe what do we think is that going to be the name lots of people think it might be 26 i remember this is again this is the type of thing that's not going to leak because they're probably not going to leak because uh you know it's it's easy to keep under wraps until the last minute i think we've all just been assuming it's going to be 17 but i wouldn't be offended if it was 26 it would make perfect sense to me it just doesn't i i'm i think the odds are slightly in favor of being 17 but i don't care either way i also think 17 i would love if they switched over to 26 naming for everything like that would that would make a lot of things oh yeah i think it would be easier for everybody yeah but i don't think they're going to i think there's like they can do it for the os's like that's that's a big deal by itself that helps a lot with you know all of our like if available statements in our code but I don't think they're gonna I think the iPhone branding is it's so it's so much bigger than all of these other terms for everything else they do in terms of like the public impact what people think of it how much it matters like how familiar people are with the numbering scheme like I don't think they're going to change it I I think it's it's like 51 49 in favor of 17 but we'll we'll find out all right so the rumors say that it's going to have an a19 and all of the a19 systems on chip system on chips whatever uh will be built on the n3p process john can you remind me exactly what n3p is and where that stacks in the lineup in the list of three nanometer processes from tsmc n3p was like the last one in the list when they first came out with it and was originally described as the one that's like for high performance uh cpus and stuff but basically it's now if you look on their website, it says, this is our best three nanometer thing.

1:08:51It's for high performance. It's for lower power. It's just, it's the latest, greatest, best one. These will be the first phone chips built in that process, I believe. And so that bodes well for performance and all the other things. So, you know, that's good. Thumbs up. All right. Allegedly 12 gigs of RAM up from eight. It will allegedly on at least the iPhone 17, we're not sure about the pros, will have the C1 cellular modem or an equivalent thereof. That's Apple's homegrown in-house cellular modem that's in the 17-y, or no, 16-y, I'm sorry, 16-y. It will potentially have ProMotion and the same screen as the iPhone 16 Pro.

1:09:29There is some debate as to whether or not it will have an always-on screen. Yeah, that's the interesting thing about the rumor that it will have 120 hertz. And basically people are saying like either they'll have the exact same screen as the 16 Pro or like the same type of screen or the equivalent performance screen. but there's a question mark about whether it'll be always on not because the screen can't do it but maybe just as a differentiator or as a simplification of the display driver or whatever so that's one thing to watch for the in in these in this in these preview notes i pull these from mac rumors and various other sources we'll link to the mac rumors roundup of stuff i put question marks after the ones not that the ones that don't have question marks aren't questioned because we won't know for sure until next week right but i'm the ones i put question marks after are even more questionable let's put it that way so always on screen is like maybe i don't know but the other stuff is more solid than the always on screen so i think you know 12 gigs of rang c1 promotion a19 that's a pretty good bet for the non-pro phone it will be interesting to see like you know so there's this rumor that they're going to split up the iphone releases uh in in the future wave so that basically the rumor is that this year they're all coming at like you know the 17 17 pro 17 air they're all coming out at the same time but the rumor is that for the 18 series you know next year that only the pro and air will come out in the fall and then the non-pro iphone 18 and the 18e will come out in the spring together and so therefore if that is true the 17 as the like base base model regular series phone has to actually last a year and a half this time not not just one year and it looks like it's set to do that like 12 gigs of ram like that's you know they could have left it at eight because the eight is quote-unquote enough for apple intelligence but like a19 on n3p and the c1 cell modem and pro motion like if you had to pick one like non-pro phone to last a year and a half this is a pretty good one yeah um apparently in the new google Pixel phones, they talked about this, that like they bumped up the RAM in the new Pixel phones specifically so they can keep the on-device LLMs in memory, which makes them respond a lot faster.

1:11:46Obviously, like if you don't have to like load in these multi-gig local models into RAM every time you're using them, if they're already loaded in RAM, then you can, they can respond more quickly to things. For the iPhones this year to be rumored to go up from 8 gigs to 12 gigs, seemingly across the whole line, that could be for a similar reason. That could be the local models can be both bigger to begin with maybe, but also you can keep more of them loaded in RAM all the time. And therefore, again, you're responding faster when you're using it. It will actually probably use less total power to invoke the LLM.

1:12:26If it's already loaded, you're saving some power there. So, you know, that could be the reason for this. And if so, that's a pretty good reason. What do the Pixels have now? I mean, Android phones have always had way more RAM, but also their OS takes more RAM. Are they up to like 16, 24? I don't even know what they're at. I think it actually is 12 or 16. It's somewhere near this. No, more RAM. We all thank Apple Intelligence for finally giving all of our devices more RAM. Yeah. Well, but it's a trade-off. You know, RAM takes power, too. Like, so, you know, you don't want to give it a device that is this power prioritizing, say.

1:13:01You don't want to give it way more RAM than it needs, even setting aside cost concerns, just because just keeping RAM on takes power. So, you know, you want to size it right for the application. But certainly, if you're going to have a whole bunch of phone features that use large AI models that need to be loaded into RAM to work, it is probably going to benefit you to have a whole bunch of RAM that you can just keep a lot of them loaded all the time. All right. And then allegedly$800, no increase at all. No price increase from the 16. The 17 Pro, 17 Pro and Max. They will get an A19 Pro with 12 gigs of RAM, again, up from 8.

1:13:37A Qualcomm cell modem. they will be eight and three quarters millimeters thick up from eight and one quarter millimeter thick or no i'm sorry that's not three quarters what is that uh seven eight eight point seven two five instead of eight point two five i can't remember what fraction again that these uh these mock-up uh models that all the youtubers have had for months are you know down to the millimeter because they're for case manufacturer so it's getting a little bit thicker presumably for that new case and the battery and all that other stuff qualcomm cell modem because the qualcomm cell modem still has better performance it has the millimeter wave band and yada yada like the apple c1 is not is not a competition for the qualcomm highest end modems maybe the c2 will be but the c1 is not so the low-end phone gets a c1 and the rumor is that the high-end phones will continue to get the qualcomm one uh which is fine because that's what our current phones have and until apple can match that feature set they have no choice all right and then uh there will be an aluminum unibody case and camera bump with a glass insert on the back and the antenna will be around the camera mesa i should put a question mark on that one because that's that's still speculation because they don't the mock-ups don't have that but one of the one of the ideas is that they found a new place to route you know the little camera lines their little plastic stripes that are on the edges of the thing those will still be there but also supposedly they're going to route an antenna line around the aluminum camera mesa on the back of it without having seen any real phones and only seeing the case mock-ups you can't tell if that's true or not so there's a question mark on that one but it would be a really clever idea i just wonder how manufacturable it is this ultimately like the this rumored change of using a lot more aluminum in the casing and less glass on the back surface we talked about a little bit in past episodes i i hope this works out the way that i think it will which should result in just generally i think it'll look a lot nicer first of all but that should be way better for weight and thermal thermal conductivity right it does have some downsides though uh two i can think of well has one more upside which is i think it will be more rigid because it's a unibody essentially instead of like a band a ring you know what i mean so it should be more torsionally rigid by by having essentially the whole top of the phone be like you know it's carved out of a giant block of aluminum so and it connects on the back and all the sides so that's good but the downside is the supposed easy repairability where you get in from the front or the back i think i mean i don't know how that glass insert is going to come off maybe it's just like glue and they can unglue it but it seems like to get to certain things like say the cameras you're going to have to go through the screen which is kind of like the bad old days where you had to do every repair from one direction and if you were doing the thing that is closest to that direction whether it's the front or the back fine but if you're doing the thing that's farthest you got to pull everything out so i'll see what iFixit has to say about this but if you look at the shit this aluminum case you can see it's it's a giant full size opening on the screen side and a smaller opening on the back side because the camera may serve as part of the aluminum unibody and yeah i agree that it should help with weight and definitely with uh heat distribution but repairability we'll see and also you know durability should probably be better yeah it's harder to break the glass when you hit the top corner because there's no glass there anymore except for the cameras i guess well right and also like think of how many times people break the back glass on their phone that will be a lot less likely probably under this kind of structure and people who break the break the back glass and don't get it fixed this will be more tenable because at least the crack will never extend to the edge because it's like again the glass insert area is inset from by like half a centimeter from all the edges that it's on i'm really curious to see i'm assuming that glass thing is just glued down and you can get in there with like a one of those little glue removal like heat gun things and it will come off with a suction cup or something but you know isn't i i thought most repairs went in through the front these days anyway isn't like wasn't the whole reason the whole thing with the new the whole thing with the new design that premiered with the iphone 14 is they made it so you could go in from either side depending on which side is closer to the thing you want to repair and that was a big boon for repairability but uh this is kind of backsliding a little bit on that because the cameras are closest to the back but you sure as hell can't get to them from the back because that's the solid piece of aluminum around them all right There allegedly, as we briefly discussed earlier, will be vapor chamber cooling.

1:17:49And my understanding of that is there's, I think, a little bit of liquid. Is that right in the device? It's like a refrigerant. It's the thing that changes face. Isn't this what used to be called heat pipes? No, it's a little bit different than heat pipes. Either way, allegedly that will help thermals, which as the three of us, particularly Marco and I talked about, would be great. There may be reduced reflection from the screen. Not a full-on matte screen, but maybe a little bit better. yeah there's a vague rumor about a better reflection handling as seen on recent android phones we'll see if that turns out to be true it's got a question mark i would love a nanotexture option on the phone like that's not a rumor i know it's not um but just for the record like now that i have nanotexture on my new laptop i don't think i'll ever not get it if it's offered like unless it's something if it's a situation like the ipad pro where like you can get it on iPad Pro if you get the terabyte model.

1:18:42It's like, I'm probably never going to be able to justify that. It might come down to the other models eventually. We'll see. When it's reasonably available, I think I will get nanotexture on everything I can get it on now. Yeah, I don't blame you. There may be a new 48 megapixel 8x telephoto, maybe. or um i also saw some rumblings that um you know i'm sorry it's the next line that john provided for me uh five five to eight x moving lens element zoom potentially on the max only so this is that you would actually have a little bit of the lens internally moving about in order to provide a varying amount of zoom and again maybe in the max phones only because you need room it's a periscope thing and the thing it'll be moving will be moving like sideways within the phone and the max just has much more room for stuff to go sideways inside it the 48 megapixel like part of the improvement to the telephoto is the increased number of pixels behind it but then also it's 8x so if you crop in the idea is like you said marco like it would be 8x optically on the regular pro phone but you could crop in crop into 16 or would it be 4x and you're cropping to 8 no i think it's 8x and like you said at the other the other lens you'd be able to to uh to crop into 5x on like you said might be like 3.5x or whatever.

1:20:02The camera stuff is also hard to nail down, but the 8x telephoto is pretty strongly rumored, and this moving element zoom in the Max only is definitely a question mark. The Pro phone will allegedly be$50 more, so$1 ,050. The Pro Max would be, again,$50 more to$1 ,250, but maybe you get 256 gigs of base storage, which would be nice. On the Pro, that should be under the Pro. The Pro Max already has 256 base, But I believe the rumor is that the plain old Pro will go to 256 base, which, you know, which you can't get that much additional storage for 50 bucks extra. So the Pro will be the bargain of the bunch here.

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1:22:51And then we move on to the potential iPhone Air. Yeah, we should talk about that name before we continue. We've just been calling it iPhone Air. We were calling it iPhone Slim for a while. Before it was going to be slim, we called it the Ultra because it was going to be the fancier phone. And then once the rumor solidified and everyone got those little, you know, 3D printed models or machined models, it was clear that the selling point of the phone would be that it's thin. So everybody started calling it the Air just because that's the name that makes the most sense doesn't mean it's the name apple will use so what else could this be called uh if not air and i think slim is not apple steven hackett says ultra but it wouldn't i don't think they would use ultra i don't i don't think it is ultra but that makes me think but if you think it's a dumb name apple would use it that's true well i think they would reserve ultra for a future like large like maybe that's what the folding one will be called next year the 20th anniversary one i don't know yeah like it'd be something that would that it above the pro max and i don't think this is going to have that what what else they're not going to call the iphone slim no i i think air is very likely to be used especially as they use it for the ipad where it's really weird because it was not the skinniest ipad well i think when it was released it was was it remember because like okay you had the ipad the ipad 2 and then a few other unnamed and then the ipad air was a much thinner lighter design when it came out wasn't that the first one that shrunk the left and right bezels to be not the same as the top and bottom no i have i'll have to check whether the air was actually airy on the ipad but either way there's precedent on the ipad for them using the name whether or not it currently makes sense in the current lineup so everyone assumes it's going to be called iphone air but i'm not as confident in this name simply because it makes too much sense yeah how about iphone min am i yeah right I don't think that's happening.

1:24:40Yeah, I don't know. If not the Air, I honestly don't have a clue. I think Air is such an obvious answer, which, to your point, maybe it means it's never going to be the answer. But I'm not sure what else they would use. If I had to put money, I'd have to put it on Air because, honestly, I can't think of anything either. But Stephen Haggard seems real convinced it's going to be ultra. I just don't think that's it. But, yeah, I do think we should never underestimate the weirdness of Apple's naming choices. I'll put it this way. it shouldn't be called ultra and i really hope it's not yeah all right uh so anyway whatever this thing is the air or otherwise it's maybe going to have an a19 pro and yeah this rumor keeps going back and forth i said in the last episode no no pro chip in the air but now they're like maybe pro chip with gpu core disabled so i don't know how to nail this one down obviously apple has choices here i i think the only choice they don't have is to have a full-fledged full speed pro chip in there because it's too skinny and they can't get the heat out so they could put a pro chip in there with parts of it disabled, they could downclock it or they could put a plane A19.

1:25:42I'm starting to believe the pro with stuff disabled rumor just because they're going to have pro with stuff that doesn't work. And they got to put some of them in the studio display two later in the year or next year. And they're going to put some of them in the iPhone air, but we'll see. That's another thing to look for. Does the air get a hobbled pro chip or does it get the plane A19? Does it get 12 gigs of RAM? We think it does. And we also think it's going to have the c1 cellular modem um it'll be between the pro and the pro max in size in terms of width and height uh but it will be a scant five and a half millimeters thick or so we think and that's about three millimeters less than the iphone 17 pro the iphone air 17 air will allegedly cost about 950 bucks which is 50 more than the iphone 16 plus yeah no more plus phones is the rumor this year so the air basically replaces them in the lineup as not really replaces them because it's whatever but it's yeah yeah i bought a a plus as one of my test devices it's the only one i have ever seen in the wild apple's just the thing is apple's just too good at upselling people like they they put these phones in their line that make perfect sense and make the the line uniform and even it out and make but then it's just like then they're the entire machinery of apple's like brand and marketing and value and deal pushes people away from products like the plus even though it's a perfectly serviceable product and it fits in the line just like well but if i'm spending this much anyway maybe i should just get the pro max and i guess that's what people do when they want a giant phone do you think is the 13 inch ipad air selling any better than the iphone plus has been selling i don't know i would again you would hope so because it's like what if i just want a big screen but don't need all the pro feet it makes perfect sense it's just it kind of annoys me that they're taking it out of the line because you know my old deal of like not everything has to be your best-selling product but whatever i mean this they're put up they're diversifying the iphone line this year in a different way that they hadn't before with this whatever this air thing is slotting in in a weird way because it's not just a different size or a different power it's a whole it's balance of features it's a whole different deal like part of the reason it has a c1 cell modem is because for power concerns right there's i didn't put this in here but there's rumors back and forth about what battery technology they're going to be using and that really influences how optimistic people are about the battery life they're like well if they use the same battery technologies the other phones it's going to suck because the battery is going to be tiny but what if it's their first silicon carbon battery and the new technology will make it better and it's like well why don't they use those good batteries the other phones too so we'll see what the battery story is and if they tout any new battery chemistry in the air or the other iPhones.

1:28:25Well, also, you know, keep in mind, the rumor is that it will have the C1 submodem. That's going to be probably much more efficient than the Qualcomm modem in the Pro. Yeah, that's what I just said. Like, that's part of the reason they're doing that. Part of it is pricing and power from the Qualcomm thing, but also part of it is you got to have the lowest power stuff in there, which is why the rumor of A19 Pro versus A19 keeps going back and forth. You're like, well, why would they put the Pro in it? The battery life is so precious. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, I think I'm probably going to end up buying the Air, honestly.

1:28:55I don't know that I will end up being happy with that decision over the entire year to come. I think it's a risk. But it sounds really interesting. And I don't necessarily think that what they are doing here is killing the plus. I think it's more like they are taking the plus in a different direction. like that's this is this is basically this is very similar in specs limits and pricing probably to where the plus sat in the lineup before but see i don't the plus had a bigger the plus was like the 13 inch ipad air it was like i want a bigger screen but i don't care about all the other crap but the the air is like i want a bigger screen but oh but you can't get the pro max size screen you've got to get something that's in between the pro and the max and you're like okay fine i can live with that oh and by the way also we're hurting your battery life whereas the plus used to have great battery life because it was real big and it didn't have the pro soc in it had great battery life the air totally is not filling that role in the lineup anymore the air is the worst battery life of any iphone probably what camera system are we getting on the air i think i didn't put that in here because i didn't look up the details of it i think it's basically you just get like the one x camera from the uh the 17 but uh we'll see but anyway there's no exciting camera rumors about the air it's just like you get one you get one that's clear you're just getting one camera and it's probably going to be the regular 1x camera from either the pro or the non-pro if they're not the same this year which is interesting too like if they yeah because i you know the rumors are that there will be only one camera which also means no 0.5 ultra wide that's right and if we don't have the 0.5 ultra wide with the camera system as we know it that means no macro no 3d anything like you know no um you know the vision pro 3d videos like spatial video like there's like that would actually be a significant uh feature limitation to only to not even have the wide it's the sacrifice for the thickness because again like the space that they save by not having those cameras they shove more battery up there yeah so we'll see i mean i uh I think it's going to be a really interesting phone to try.

1:31:02And I think they're going to make some big splashes with it. We'll see. And before we move on from the phones, because this is the last one, I have to say that even though obviously I'm not against the multi-cameras in the back like my daughter is, the Plane 17, like the Plane 16, but even more so, is so clearly the best-looking phone in the lineup. because the back of the Air looks weird and awkward with that thing. The back of the Pro looks miserable this year. Back of the non-Pro, it's got two cameras vertically with the purple and green cases and everything. It is the most attractive phone, if you care about that sort of thing, which surprisingly, I kind of do.

1:31:43Not enough for me to get a non-Pro, because I need the cameras more, but boy, I wish I could have a camera that looked like the 16 or the 17 on the back. And the Air, you think like, oh, isn't the Air going to be the looker? but they you know it's got one camera but it's got a full length uh pixel style camera mesa on the back and i think it is ugly honestly i think all the camera mesas are ugly like i don't think i think that's true with all the mesa designs i think they are all hideous but 17 is the best or the 16 is the best yeah probably especially with like on the on the 16 where it had like the the glass like the fade of the deep color of the 16 sort of fading up in the camera mesa they did it's slimming.

1:32:22It's like when you do like a whatever, I don't know the makeup terms, like the highlighter along the bridge of your nose for makeup and everything to make your nose look smaller. I love that you think we would know that. Right? Some in the chat room will know. Really? Are you sure? Our chat room? Yes. People know things about makeup. I know things about makeup. I just don't know the right words. That's alright. We'll figure it out another time. I don't know. I'm intrigued by the air. I don't think I would want it as my for the next year phone, although So I really think that one of the three of us should grab one of these.

1:32:55You know I'm going to get one. Yeah, that's probably true. Again, I don't care that much about thinness. I think it's going to feel amazing because it's going to be lighter. I think that's really what's going to get me about it. I know we talked about this just a little while ago on this very episode, but I am surprised by how off-putting you find the weight of these phones to be. They're pulling his shorts down. I mean, I guess. They're not light. I'm not trying to say that they're light. I'm not trying to say that it's unreasonable for you to be put off by this, but I'm just not nearly as— Did you ever use a mini, Casey?

1:33:28Did you get a mini one year? I forget. No, I did not. Oh, the mini was great. I get where he's coming from, because I go into my attic occasionally and pick up old iPhone 6 or an old iPod Touch, and it's like they weigh nothing. And it really—these bricks that we carry around with us, the functionality is important enough for us to do it, and I prefer the battery life that I get from the brick than I would otherwise. but if i could snap my fingers and have something that weighed as much as an old ipod touch but had all these feature size and battery life i would do it in a second so and especially since the phones had been kind of getting heavier as they got bigger again i think those were the correct trade-offs for the pro phones and i still think it's the correct trade-offs but i get where marco is coming from with the weight i wouldn't trade it for all my cameras but i can see why somebody would the battery life is the only big question mark in my mind because if your phone doesn't last all day.

1:34:15It doesn't matter how much you enjoy it when you're using it. Yeah, we'll see what happens. I don't know. I am definitely intrigued by the air or whatever it ends up being called. Like I said, I don't suspect I'm going to actually commit to it. And I hope that Marco does at least long enough for us to talk about it on the show. And then if you return it, so be it. But I am definitely intrigued for sure. There are allegedly some other things coming on, what is it, Tuesday. So we will allegedly be getting AirPods Pro 3, which I have been waiting for for so long, except now I've got basically a brand new AirPods Pro 2.

1:34:47But you're getting them anyway. I probably will because I'm a fool. But anyways, they're allegedly... Look, there's nothing wrong with having multiple pairs of the headphones you use most often. You'll be passing them down to your kids soon enough too. Yeah, they definitely want like your earwax and... Well, no, you get new tips, man. You get new tips. And also, I don't think they would care that much. Just wait until you see what they look like after they use them for a while. gross uh so anyway so airpods pro 3 new smaller case without any buttons whatsoever which is similar to the airpods 4 is that what you're rocking now john the airpods yeah it's got like a capacitive button which i think is kind of a downgrade because honestly how are people supposed to figure that out it's not like the tiny instruction booklet people just throw away or never look at but yeah there's there is still a capacitive button that does the same thing as the press in button but now it's not a real button i mean in all fairness no one knows how the button works anyway even when it's a real button yeah it's true yeah it's better for the case less grit can get in there it makes it simpler so on so forth but what they mean by smaller case um is smaller than the current uh airpods pro 2 case which is still pretty big yeah i'm i'm any any reduction in case size especially thickness i would very much welcome because the way it is right now i i like it you can put it in a pocket but it's not graceful i and you know getting back to our shorts discussion like there's pretty much no way to have an air pods pro case in your pants pocket and have it look reasonable at all another weird thing is i found that i don't know if this is just my daughter or a trend among kids but she has always uh asked for and gotten cases for her airpod cases i guess it's just to make them look nicer like because they're just boring and white so she gets like brightly colored ones or with patterns on them And recently the case I got her came with like a carabiner thing attached to it.

1:36:36And I just assumed she would just take that off and ignore it, but she's like, no, leave it on. It's cool. So her AirPods case have always been even bigger than they would be because they have, you know, a thin silicone, cheap silicone case around them with like pretty flowers on it or whatever. And then a carabiner attached to it. Uh, so anyways, there's going to be a better sound, better noise counseling, cancellation, and potentially heart rate monitoring. We'll see. rumor we'll see apple watch series 11 will have the s11 chip which will basically be the same as the s10 i can't believe apple keeps getting away with that i don't know how many years they've done it in a row just like they would just increase the number but have the soc be basically unchanged yeah i believe there were three years in a row where it was the same processor in each apple watch and then they changed it and now we're now we're back to like well it's going to be the same as i mean not that it matters it's fine but it's just they don't feel the need to put the pedal to the metal in terms of like every year you know uh ramping it up i think the only time it's going to change is like when when they go to two nanometer or something and even maybe not that year maybe that year after they go to two nanometer then the s 12 or 13 is the first two nanometer one and they do the change and then there's the same soc three years in a row it's fine it's just funny and weird um we will potentially be getting 5g cellular on the apple watch series 11 and maybe blood pressure monitoring i would be very surprised if that happens but it would be great if it did all the health stuff is always such a big question mark because there's just so many things that are rumored and there's so much about shipping them that has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with like regulatory environment and whether apple feels like they should do it or whatever so take all the potential health things the grain itself but if it doesn't have something like that the only new feature would be s11 which whether people know it or not is not that big of a change from an S10 and instead of just LTE cellular doing 5G.

1:38:22Keep in mind the track record of Apple Watch rumors is terrible. In either direction, whenever like nothing is predicted, sometimes we get something pretty cool. And then sometimes we have like predictions of, say, a case redesign or a new strap, you know, a straighter mechanism or whatever. And like those almost never pan out. The rumor mill for Apple Watch is very weak. especially for things like these health features which yeah even if these were true the rumors don't even say that this would require different hardware so you can't even verify or like you know negate them by looking at the hardware because all these are like well we'd use the existing sensors that are already there we just has figured out some way to use those sensors to get this information in some weird way or maybe we haven't and it doesn't even change the hardware the case rumors and stuff like that it's like it's clear let's just let's either we'll be able to tell whether that's true or not.

1:39:14And lo and behold, they haven't been. And the strap rumors. But the health monitoring rumors are so hard because a lot of it is just like software that either is or isn't ready to synthesize sensor data to come up with a number. Apple Watch SE will have the S11. Maybe. Maybe. New sleep apnea detection. Maybe. And which is just a feature that the non-SE watches have had. But the rumor is that the SE will get it this year. and maybe new 1.6 inch and 1.8 inch display sizes. What is that in terms of millimeters, you know, 40, 44, et cetera? I forget, but I would say, see Marco's earlier comments about the rumors of watch hardware.

1:39:52Yeah, bigger. Yeah, what this is saying is that the SE, SE hasn't been updated in a while. And so this, I forget what number they're on. Is this the SE4 or whatever? But like, this would be a change. That's why the S11 is like, it would be a new Apple Watch SE that, you know, tries to keep up with the other watches. so if it had an s11 that would be something it would say like it has the exact same soc as the plain series 11 so it will keep for three years when they don't change it and we'll get some of the previous features that the non-se watches had like sleep apnea detection and if it's a new size i don't know why it would be a new size but who the hell knows yeah and what i'm hoping like you know it sounds like this is going to be a pretty boring year for apple watch updates if all these rumors or lack thereof are actually correct these are the most exciting rumors we've got yeah and this is like there's not a lot here um so what i'm hoping for you know the apple watch hardware itself it's not that interesting most of the time but they can usually do fun things like you know maybe some maybe a new case material like a new kind of metal or a new finish on the case maybe a new color of metal on the case maybe some new strap type that like oh we've now now we have the titanium loop combo or some kind of other way to have some nice little updates here that don't require necessarily the constant march of exciting hardware which they don't really tend to deliver.

1:41:15But there's lots of other things that matter in watches. This is at the end of the day, it is a computer but it's also jewelry and fashion. And so if you can make some excitement there in those other areas which they usually are pretty good at then that's a way to make this interesting in you know in other ways the apple watch ultra 3 we don't know squat except that maybe it'll get satellite connectivity and that may be the only thing that's different about it i mean presumably the s11 or whatever but like it'll look the same as the current uh apple watch ultra as marco said maybe it'll come in some new color or something maybe not but uh the whole idea is that satellite connectivity and i think what they're saying by that i didn't put the details in here but like not just the thing where you can sos whatever but where you can actually use it to send data or whatever, which is a feature that is popular on other non-Apple Watches.

1:42:04And the Apple Watch Ultra is lagging behind its competitors in this area. So maybe you will get satellite connectivity for more than just absolute last resort SOS. We shall see. I will say for whatever it's worth on the fun new strap front, all summer I changed up my Apple Watch strap for, I forget what it's called, but there's an Ultra version of the Milanese loop that is made of titanium and it has a latch that keeps it in place like it keeps the fit size that you set instead of the little magnets thing and just a loop yeah and I've been wearing this not I don't wear an ultra but I've been wearing this on my regular like you know big sized regular Apple watch all summer long and not only does it look very good but it has functioned so much better than any other metal Apple watch strap I've ever had because you know you can set the set point clasp, you can unbutton it and set it wherever you want.

1:43:00So you have free range. Unlike the link bracelet, which doesn't have any kind of micro-adjustment, you have infinite micro-adjustment on how you're setting it. But every time you put it on, it goes back to where you previously set it. So it's not like you have to every morning try to get it right again with the regular Milanese. And compared to the regular Milanese, this one doesn't pinch arm hairs at all. I don't know why. I don't know how they're managing to do it. It's just like a different physical mechanic. I don't know. Somehow, it doesn't pinch any arm hairs at all. I think John's arms would like a word.

1:43:35I mean, look, I'm no John with my arm hair, but I'm not that bald. I don't know. I think I have a standard amount of man arm hair. Maybe they just changed, like you said, the way the little at the microscopic level, the way the little rings or whatever interlink with each other. maybe uh whatever it is i like this titanium mesh thing i love this band it's fantastic and even without an ultra as i was saying like it as long as you have the big size watch because they don't make it in the small size but as long as you're the big size watch this band works really well that's cool uh then apparently we will be getting and i believe we talked about this a week or two ago we will be maybe getting tech woven and or liquid silicone cases uh and they may have lanyard or perhaps cross body straps yeah marco mentioned that earlier you can see pictures of it in the mac rumor story i still don't quite understand how the cross body strap will work it's got like magnets in the end that connect the little things together but i don't quite know where the phone part anyway i wish they had showed this on a person show me how a person uses this to carry a phone have you never seen like a crossbody phone strap i don't think i've seen one in real life and i would love to see one like sort of mocked up here but it's just yeah i mean i guess i guess if this is i think this is this is a thing that like younger than us people do that we don't understand like i'm sure this is not yeah or for all i know it's also the thing that retired people will be using or something i don't know but we'll find out i mean obviously it's a big enough trend for apple for it to be on apple's radar again if this rumor is to be believed whether or not apple makes these other people do make them and so that's why people think apple might make one and you have you can see the pictures and these are what it looks to me like it's like a dog leash but you know that's just where my mind goes when i see something like this wow uh all right and then i have been instructed to ask you and i think these are great questions that john put in the show notes what are we most looking forward to uh i will finish up so let's start with john please strangely enough i think i am most looking forward to the plain iphone 17s and to swap my answer to the next question we're gonna get to as i said earlier getting 17s for my kids and like i said i i don't like how the pros look this year i don't like the fact that they kind of left the three cameras the same way they were but extended the mesa across the phone like i feel like it is not the uh the recognition of the reality of cameras that i was asking for when i said stop pretending they're in the corner they're like fine now they're not in the corner it's like well they're still just i don't like it i don't like the way it looks on the on the air when it's got one camera that's got the pixel thing the the looks just like the pixel phones i think they're ugly and not a good design so i'm glad i'm not getting one and i'm glad my kids are getting the plane 17 because i think it's the looker of the group and i'm hoping that the 17 will be a great phone for both of them first of all this is probably the last phone i'm going to be buying for my son because hopefully someday he will graduate and get a job or go to graduate school or whatever but but you know the the parent gravy train is ending after four years of college and so this will probably be the last phone we buy for him and it's this is going to be my daughter's college phone that she's going to hopefully use for all four years of college and it will come with a pretty good processor in the a19 built on tsmc's n3p process the best three nanometer one after many years of various three nanometer processes 12 gigs of ram thanks to apple intelligence up from eight the low power apple cell modem pro motion that sounds like a great i hope it has really good battery life with the a19 on n3p and the c1 cell modem and maybe a promotion that doesn't include the always on screen now that she would probably use that anyway so i'm actually the most excited about the plane 17 because i feel like it will be like the perfection of this particular form kind of like i feel like the 16 pro is was the kind of the perfection of this form before they changed it again but the 17 hasn't changed it looks just like the 16 but it'll be it should be better in all possible ways with a couple of specs particularly bumped up particularly the ram and the cell modem and taking less power and promotion so that's what i'm most excited about and also i think it'll become the most fun colors and i'm interested to see which colors my kids will pick i'm sure my son will pick black or gray or something but my daughter will pick something fun so there you go that's my pick for the event I'm excited about the 17 Marco wow I mean I've covered most of this already I can't wait to see the air that's really I mean and I think even if even if it turns out not to be perfect in every way for me I'm just looking forward to what have they done that is different here how So obviously there's going to be major tradeoffs, but maybe they'll be worth it when you pick the thing up and you're like, oh my god, I have to have this.

1:48:29Whenever they've introduced a new form factor of something, there's always tradeoffs. If it's small, the tradeoffs usually are compute power or battery or features, whatever it is. You look at when they first introduced the MacBook Air or the 12-inch MacBook. These came in with very big tradeoffs. but you would pick the thing up and be like, oh my God, I have to have this. And you would oftentimes put up with those trade-offs. Almost every trade-off that we've said is probably likely with the iPhone Air also applied to the iPhone mini. But I used an iPhone mini for a year and loved it. Even though, yeah, I missed the zoom camera.

1:49:11Yeah, I missed having the bigger battery. But I did love it for that year because it was something different and it felt delightful in my hand. that's what I'm expecting and hoping the iPhone, quote, Air to be. I think it's going to be really nice in physical ways and maybe in the technical specs it won't be as nice but that might be a worthy trade off for a lot of people and possibly myself included. So that I'm very much looking forward to because it's something really new and it looks like they are trying something really extreme with it and that could be really nice. uh from oh and you're looking to buy which one the the only thing that i think that would kick me up to the pro is if it's a really good orange uh but again i i don't have high hopes um i i just yeah i i don't see it happening if it if it is great and if for some reason the colors really suck on the air um but i i don't think that will end up being the case i think the rumor is the colors aren't exciting on the air so like when it came down to choose what should the air be like It's kind of between the Pro and the non-Pro.

1:50:18It seems like they're leaning more towards the Pro. But again, color rumors are the hardest to nail down. So there's still hope for you. Yeah, I will say I've seen the rumored colors and the Air colors did not look interesting. But yeah, we'll see what that orange turns out to be. For me, I think I'm most excited to see the Air and the new AirPods Pro. I sincerely doubt I will be buying an Air, although you bet I'm going to have to go to the Apple Store and touch one and fondle one and see what I think. I suspect I will be getting an iPhone 17 Pro or perhaps iPhone 26 Pro, but I think it'll be an iPhone 17 Pro.

1:50:59And we'll see what happens from there. I don't know. I feel like as much as I enjoy the iPhone 16 Pro, we very much are approaching the one true form of the slab of glass that does things. and I'm really looking forward to the air to see, like Marco was saying, what are they doing differently this time? How are they changing things? What is this trading off in order to get incredibly thin? And I'm just excited to see something that looks a bit different, even if I don't necessarily think it fits my needs well. So that's what I think will happen, and we'll see how it goes on Tuesday. I know we usually cover this at the end of the show, but since we're here now, our intention is to record on the 10th on Wednesday just as you would expect so we are not doing any you know crazy scheduling changes or anything like that so you will have a bootleg late on Wednesday the 10th and a released episode depending on how late Marco wants to stay up more likely than not sometime on Thursday the 11th.

1:52:00All right thank you to our sponsors this week Squarespace, Factor, and Quince and thank you to our members who support us directly you can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the many perks of membership, besides funding our ridiculous iPhone habits, one of the many other perks is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week on ATP Overtime, we're going to be talking about how the US government is buying 10 % of Intel, which, okay, we're going to talk about that in overtime. I think there's a lot there. So anyway, join us, atp.fm slash join for all of our overtimes and many other things. Thank you for listening, everybody, and we'll talk to you next week.

1:52:44Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin, because it was accidental. Oh, it was accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him, because it was accidental. Accidental. Who is accidental. Accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm. And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O, A-R-M, Antimarko, Armin, S-I-R-A-C, USA Syracuse. It's accidental. It's accidental. They didn't mean to. Accidental. Accidental. Tech podcast so long. Are you guys excited about the new Tiny Remarkable tablet? I saw that.

1:53:48I saved that. I was going to put that in the notes for next week's show, but I assume you saw it. I was wondering if you would be excited about it because it seemed like you kind of appreciated the bigger screen. I know you're a fan of the product, but I was wondering if you would find the screen too small, but it sounds like you're excited about it. So coincidentally, I actually just like two weeks ago or last week even upgraded to the bigger size Remarkable, the Remarkable Paper Pro. And then they announced this like, you know, a few days ago, like they literally announced the event that they were going to like, have another release set the day after I threw away the box of the Remarkable Paper Pro.

1:54:26So what they release, or yeah, it's now it's time to release. What they release is the Remarkable Paper Pro Move, which has at least one too many words in the product name. But it's basically, it's almost an iPad mini-sized Remarkable Paper Pro. It's actually like, it's skinnier and taller than a lot of e-ink tablets or tablets. It's like a big phone. Yeah, almost. Like it's, you ever see like a reporter notebook style? It's kind of like that kind of aspect ratio in style. It's like a tall, skinny note-taking thing. And what's interesting is it uses the same color e-ink screen as the big remarkable, actually at a higher resolution.

1:55:13But, you know, we'll see how that goes. early reviews are out on YouTube from people who had advanced units and they seem pretty positive I don't think it's right for me. although watch I'll probably have one in two weeks. But you know. You know. I don't think it's right for me. However, there's other products in the category that I was a little bit interested in. There's two or three major ones that I see all over Amazon. There's one from a company that makes like AI Note or something like that is the brand or something like that. And then there's a company called Viwoods that makes a really compelling small one that I actually bought earlier this summer and ended up returning because I didn't really love the software on it.

1:56:01But there is this whole category of e-ink note-taking things. And I did my little YouTube video earlier in the year about comparing the Remarkable 2 to the Supernote Manta, the 10.5-inch class ones. And the reason I ended up upgrading to their Remarkable Paper Pro just like last week was basically because I liked having more screen space and I wanted a backlight and some of the kind of more modern advances that they had made with the Paper Pro. And just in terms of things like, you know, life, everyday life benefits, things like the dramatically improved design for the case and how it wraps around the pen and how the pen attaches and what the pen does even simple things like on the pro compared to the two um the pro will wake up when you open the case or it'll wake up when you take the pen off the side which is really like there's little quality of life improvements like that that that makes the pro really nice of an upgrade over the over the remarkable two um because you know the two is like five years old and the pro came out about a year ago and so now this new one the pro move is basically all of the features of the pro, but tiny and skinny.

1:57:25And that is awesome if you need something tiny. I don't think I do. Like the only time I really take it out is if I'm like, you know, if I'm like meeting with somebody or I will bring it to therapy so I can like take notes about what I'm talking about and feeling. and so it is nice to have something portable but the reality is like my hands aren't so full that i can't just bring the big one so it's fine you can put it in your other pocket to balance it out with the shorts so they pull down evenly yeah and like and it's not like the the the new pro move um it's not so small that it would fit in a pocket really maybe like a big winter jacket pocket but you know it's not fitting in your pants pocket it keeps looking like an iphone pro max to me but i guess it is bigger than that no it's it's it's roughly ipad mini class it's like 7.3 versus what is the pro max 6.6 or something i don't know yeah but there's there's a big a big bezel difference yeah and and a big aspect ratio difference yeah you're right this has a big chin on the bottom too yeah exactly um so anyway it looks really really good for a very specialized market and i don't think i'm in that market but i do really enjoy the Remarkable line.

1:58:44Whenever I have tried anything else besides the Remarkable line to fill this note-taking e-ink tablet kind of thing, I am always incredibly disappointed by the software on everyone else's tablets. Remarkable is incredibly Apple-like in the best way. They don't necessarily tackle every feature, they don't address every market, but their software is really good. It's a really nice overall integrated experience. The hardware is nice. The software is nice. The technical side, the battery life is great. The sync service is very reliable. The feature set, everything just kind of works. And whenever I've tried any of the other ones, there have been features that I've liked about the other ones, but the software is always just full of paper cuts or it's too slow or the battery life is terrible or the sync is terrible.

1:59:41Ultimately, overall, I'm very much a remarkable fan. But I don't think I necessarily need this new one. But what I still hope to eventually be released and what I was hoping this event would be, but it wasn't, I want a Remarkable 3. A still black and white screen, 300 DPI, just like the Carta screens that are on most of their competitors now. Because they're still like the Paper Pro and the Remarkable 2 are like 220 something DPI, I think. And the new move is 260 something, 264, I think. But all their competitors are 300. And it really does make a difference. Like the text looks way sharper on like a Super Note or a Kindle Scribe compared to their Markables.

2:00:24So I would love higher resolution. But otherwise, like I would love for them to just bring all of the little quality of life improvements they've learned over time that are in the Pro and the Pro Move bring those to a mid-sized black and white high-res tablet i think that would be killer i would love that seems like your dreams of black and white are going to be the ones that are thwarted because if even this little thing has the their color system i feel like any remarkable three has got to be color right i that's that's my fear but but you know the color screens do bring significant trade-offs like it dramatically changes how much refreshing they have to do the refreshes are slower the only thing i really don't like about the remarkable pro compared to the two is the undo speed is significantly slower on the pro versus the two because the way the color screen has to refresh to undo to erase something it takes longer and it's different and it's very like undo is very laggy on the pro screen whereas on the two it's it's really not so yeah i would love a future nice black and white black and white with a light would be ideal and that's why I tried the Viwoods Mini because the Viwoods Mini does offer that.

2:01:36It just has software that was not for me like most things. But overall, the Viwoods Mini was a great experience of like, oh, I would kind of maybe enjoy something like this but I want Remarkable software. Anyway, so I love what Remarkable does. I'm finding increasing uses for the tablet. I'm very glad I have it. I even briefly, of course, I thought to myself, I would really love to write my own note-taking software. Of course, because it's me. And I'm not going to learn Android, so screw that. But I thought, how bad would it be if I just use an iPad for this purpose? If I just write an iPad app, and I tried using an iPad for note-taking on my desk to replace the remarkable for a couple of days, a few weeks ago.

2:02:27And it's so much worse. And I'm not even talking about just the feel of the screen, which is incredibly worse. It's not even close. The feel of writing with the Apple Pencil on an iPad, even with a paper-style screen protector or without, no matter how you're doing it, it's night and day different compared to an E-ing tablet. The E-ing tablets, they feel way better. The pens are way better. The draw distance is way smaller. like it's just everything about them is better feeling in terms of like actual note taking but you know also just all the software is totally wrong like i try i looked around the app store trying to find like what what ipad app comes the closest to a remarkable style note taking ui and it's a rough space out there like there's nothing good like because everything the reason why Remarkable fits me so well is because they seem to have similar values as I do in terms of like, you know, quality, like a small feature set done very well.

2:03:36All of the iPad note taking apps don't do that. They're all like, we're going to be everything to you. We want to, we're going to have like, you know, audio recording, AI transcription, AI everything, you know, import documents and take notes on other sheets. And it's like, oh, I don't want any of that. I want like a fancy notebook. That's what I want here. I want a notebook that's dynamic because it's a computer. And that's what the e-tablets offer, and I was not able to find something like that on the iPad. So even setting aside the hardware problems that make it a lot less ideal for this purpose, the software situation is dire.

2:04:14It's terrible. So someday maybe I'll write my own, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.