661: Intimate and Regimented

37:48So yeah, those M1 MacBook Airs, there's probably a lot of them still kicking. They're going to start having problems. The batteries are going to wear out. They'll start having keyboard problems just from age. So the reality is the M1 is pretty old at this point, even though it was so awesome and still is awfully good compared to what a lot of things can do now. But the reality is they've come a long way. And the modern M chips are so much faster that they're now saying, listen, even if you came along with us five years ago with the M1 and got that big leap, now there's another big leap next time you upgrade.

38:24And hey, why don't you do it now? And they're not wrong. Like, you know, if you would use that performance or if you need the upgrade, it is a massive upgrade from where we were back then. Yeah, the compounding a couple percent each year or whatever on everything adds up to this copy in their marketing. And it's not a couple percent each year. it's like 20 it's a lot it depends but anyway m1 upgraders will experience up to six times faster ai performance up to 6.8 times faster gpu performance with ray tracing and up to two times faster cpu performance now the ray tracing obviously there was no ray tracing card we're in the old ones there is now so that feels kind of unfair or whatever and who will even use that but the cpu one they've doubled it like the these m5 is basically twice as fast in cpu as the m1 so So between M1 and M5, they doubled.

39:11That's pretty darn good. That is a good compounding of gains over years. I still think the M1 is pretty good, but that's the curse of making a really good product is it's harder to top yourself. Yep, and your AI will run a little bit faster as you load ChatGPT.com in your web browser. All right, so breaking down the different options, you can have 16, 24, or 32 gigs of RAM. You can have half terabyte through four terabytes. that is less than the bigger models that are currently available. And additionally, you can get up to two times faster SSD performance than the prior generation. Well, that's cool.

39:47You'll see that claim in basically all the M5-based products. I'm not sure what it's based on. I saw one thing that said it's based on them using a newer storage technology or newer storage standard. So we'll find out when people benchmark these. But that is one of the claims. M5, you get two times faster SSD performance than the M4. Do you think when they say up to two times faster, do you think they mean only certain configurations or only under certain conditions. Yeah, that's the question. Like, oh, do I need to get the 4TB model to do that? Is it the 1 versus 2 chip thing? Remember, they undid that.

40:16Like, they did that a while ago, and then they said, no, but they fixed it. And they said, no, everybody's going to get the good performance of the 2 chips. Do some of them have 4 chips? So we'll find this out when they start testing them. But that is the quote, up to 2 times faster SSD performance in these M5-based products. They are offering the nanosexure display for$150. Yes, let me just say, I got the M4 version of this like a year ago, whatever. It's so good. No, stop. I don't want to hear this because I don't have it and I'm jealous. A huge reason why is that nanotexture screen. If you actually are taking your laptop around out in the world, I cannot more highly recommend the nanotexture screen.

40:56It's so incredibly good. It was one of the reasons why I upgraded from my M2 MacBook Air to this M4 14-inch MacBook Pro and i would i will not go back for the screen alone it is so useful if you're like on you know mass transit like you know you're sitting next to a window it's somewhere like it's so good strongly recommend nanotexture a lot of people don't like the fingerprint difficulty it's hard to get fingerprints on that screen it's hard to get them off even with the polishing cloth that comes with it i for whatever it's worth i have not found nanotexture to be harder to clean than the regular shiny screens have always been.

41:33Like, you know, when you get like that one slight row of keyboard imprints on it, you're like, uh-oh, I better, you know, catch up to that before it gets out of hand. You know, you get the microfiber, you get the spray, whatever it is. And like, it's hard to clean, but so are all of their screens. Like, so, and as long as you are not like a monster constantly touching your screen, it's not gonna look dirty. Yeah, that's the problem with the nanotexture iPad, which we'll get to in a second, because you touched that one so well i believe so do we have info so like i believe with the ipad didn't they like put the coating on the underside of the glass or something no no but the three nanotexture coating is three nanotexture screens they offer the xdr the macbook pro and the ipad i believe are three different i believe that's right things that i don't know if they're different technologies but they're if you look at the three of them under a microscope i believe you could distinguish them and so i think they did try to make the ipad one i think it has like essentially a rougher texture like bigger divots instead of tiny ones and maybe that makes it easier to clean but you know everything's relative like i i'm glad that i don't actually like the nanotexture one but what marco's talking about is even if you don't like the nanotexture even if you don't like how it looks it does have advantages if you're in uncontrolled lighting situations like on the go with your laptop because sometimes the glare from the glossy ones and you know you if you can't control where you are you're on a train and some the lights coming in through the window you just literally can't see your screen on a glossy screen and there's nothing you can do about that and the nanotexture helps there so that i understand the attraction to it i just don't actually like how it looks the interfaces you can get wi-fi 6e or it still has i guess i should say wi-fi 6e it's still bluetooth 5.3 and it's still thunderbolt 4 not thunderbolt 5 interestingly makes sense for the base m5 like i'm not kind of sure the wi-fi 6e one annoys me because as we'll see in a little bit because you know we know apple has ways to get better Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, but not in the base M5 MacBook Pro.

43:27Seems not. The power adapter, you get a 70-watt power adapter standard unless you're in the EU, in which case you get nothing. Good day, sir. You can add the 96-watt power adapter for an additional$20. Building on what I was saying a moment ago from MacRumors, there's no power adapter in the box in European countries, including the UK, Ireland, Germany, Italy, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Norway, and others, according to Apple's online store. An Apple spokesperson told the French website Numerama, Nicolas Lelouch, let's go with that. I can't do French. I can barely do English. That the decision to not include a charger with this particular MacBook Pro is made in anticipation of a European regulation that will require Apple to provide customers with the option to purchase certain devices without a charger in the box starting in April.

44:12Apple does still include the USB safe to MagSafe 3 cable in the box, however. So you get the cable, you just don't get the thing that you plug the cable into. too so you know you like the magsafe cable because they have magsafe on them so you know you need the cable that has that end to magnetize to the power port of course you can just use the usbc port as well but anyway that's i like you know it would have been nice if apple gave an option to get the charging thing but they don't you just don't get it well they do the option is you could pay for it i guess like let's have it have it in the box or whatever yeah i mean it's i understand And, you know, Apple's kind of, I know they're no fan of the EU regulation, but, you know, they, instead of cutting the price by, you know, 30 pounds or whatever, they just said, oh, fine, okay, we'll just make it optional.

44:58So it's effectively a price raise. Like, that's what this means. Passing the savings on to you is not a phrase that's in Apple's vocabulary. Oh, definitely not. Certainly not, indeed. All right, the colors. Prepare yourselves. This is a really shocking development from Apple. The colors are as follows. silver and space black. Yeah, no change there. It's a MacBook Pro. We know what that means. That means they will occasionally, about every five years, design a new shade of black for you. And otherwise, that's it. You can get black or silver. The OLED ones that are coming in 2027 will come in Cosmic Orange and you'll love it.

45:36Oh my God, that'll be amazing. I would upgrade just for that. I think that would be a little bit too much orange for my taste. But, you know, I would approve of it being a thing. I actually, I use orange. like so my my desktop mac i just use like the regular mac multi-color color scheme on my to-go mac with this nanotexture screen um i use orange as the system accent color just just like some fun some variety so every app feels like overcast yeah it's really fun actually like i've never i've never used the accent color in any other macs before but i'm like you know for this one like i it's because it's like a different computer it's a different size i use a different wallpaper on it.

46:13I have a few different settings on it. I auto-hide the dock on that one, but not on my desktop because the monitor's huge. And so that's the one. I'm like, let me also make this accent color orange. And that one has Tahoe, and my desktop still does not. So it's kind of fun to have this all-new experience whenever I'm on the go. It's nice. Do you remember the original iMacs that came with those themes, or they would come with, like, you could change the accent color. Obviously, it was just part of classic macOS, but also they came with desktop backgrounds. to match those. Remember, it was like the flying saucers.

46:45It may have been before your time, but Apple has done this where they, I mean, they kind of do it with the current iMacs where they will, everything is themed, including the software part of it. It's fun if you've never done that, but the theme ability of macOS has really gone downhill over the years. That's too bad. The price is starting at$1 ,600. You can pre-order it as we speak. It'll be in stores on October 22nd, which interestingly is a Wednesday. It's not a Friday as it often is. It's a Wednesday. Let me, well, before we leave the subject of this base model MacBook Pro 14-inch, let me just also say that, you know, when I got this, you know, I was trying to choose, like, should I get, like, a super fast one, like an M4 Pro or Max, and decided to get the base M4, in large part because the M4 is really fast.

47:31and it actually if you look at the m4 pro and max for cpu they it doesn't actually scale up that well um it's it's much more of a gpu beast as you scale up but cpu does not actually scale amazingly linearly with those core counts um and it's like the base is so good the base m4 is so good and you get amazing battery life for it you get all the other benefits of the pro you get like you You know, the nicer screen, the nicer speakers, nicer microphones. You get, like, all the ports. You get the SD cards. Like, it's an amazing overall machine. But you have a lower price. You have better battery life.

48:11Like, it's a great overall combo. This new M5 14X MacBook Pro looks to basically be the identical machine with the M5 instead. Like, everything else looks basically the same. And I can strongly recommend this machine overall. all we haven't yet seen the you know as discussed earlier we haven't yet seen what the m5 pro and max chips will be or whatever their equivalents are we haven't seen that yet and maybe there'll be amazing performance monsters probably uh but if you don't necessarily think you need that or if you're coming from like if you compare the performance of the m4 and m5 base models to like the m2 max or the m3 max it compares very well surprisingly because it was such a leap i think uh what's his name the what's lucas m something that who's the youtuber that i'm thinking of he's got like i know who you're thinking of i can't remember his name anyway i think he did a video just today where he was benchmarking the base just the plain old m5 versus an m4 pro and the m5 beat it and almost everything and so that's not two generations old that's that's the plain m5 beating the previous generation m4 pro so that is yeah you know and those destroy anything from the m1 through three generations which themselves were very fast so like what i'm saying is this machine could be right for you like this machine is right for a lot of people it has been amazingly right for me as my on-the-go machine and it's fast enough that if i needed it to be it could be my only machine it's that good and so the m5 version makes that even better especially on the gpu side but you know it's even better um so this is a solid all arounder and if you are in need of something anywhere close to this combination i would strongly recommend checking it out and if you ever work in the sun get the end of texture this is the last hurrah of this design too probably because everyone expects when the oled ones come which is going to be the m6 ones most likely uh that they'll redesign the case right so if you like this case uh this was the last best one to get with this case design or this this generation of the m5 generation uh maybe the m6 obviously the oled will be amazing and that'll be very attractive and you might want to wait for that model but if you don't care about oled and you're worried that you're not going to like whatever they do to the design in the next one it's another possible reason to get like the last one of this generation before they have generational turnover off the top of your head do you folks remember what is the display limitations for the vanilla versus pro versus max chips because i remember early on you had to have like the pro or the max to have a you know more than a couple displays do you happen to remember offhand where that is now yeah no they fix that in the m3 or m4 generation well that's why i was asking.

50:48Yeah, I didn't I didn't put the display specs in here. I didn't have time to look that up. But I would imagine it's the same as the M4. But I think it's two external displays for this one. We can look it up. Well, I tried to look it up quickly using the compare thing on the app on the store. And I couldn't I couldn't get a clear answer quickly as we recorded. But I was thinking, you know, what drives me to a Max? I currently have an M3 Max. If I were to go tomorrow, could I just get a vanilla M5? And the things that I was thinking about was, I have an 8 terabyte drive for reasons that I stand by, but I'm not interested in litigating right now.

51:21And I think that that might require either a Pro or a Max. I use three external displays, and that used to require a Pro or a Max? Yeah, it still does. This one says on Apple's M5 MacBook Pro, it's up to two external displays with 6K resolution at 60 hertz. So there's no three displays connecting to this. Okay, so then that would need either a Pro or a Max. Well, it says, hmm. Or one external display at 6K resolution over Thunderbolt and one external with HDMI. So that's still just two. Yeah, if they're not all Thunderbolt, I believe you get some bonuses here and there. Because the HDMI does count as one of the outputs.

51:57But yeah, generally speaking, what you're looking at is like if you need a lot of RAM or a lot of storage or a lot of GPU power or a lot of monitors. Oh, that's something I forgot to mention before I should have put in the notes. The SOIC thing for the supposed M5 Pro and M5 Mac. one of the other i mean i don't think this is true but before things are announced people can have their hopes and fantasies and one of the hopes and fantasies is that if you make the m5 pro and m5 max out of a bunch of individually made dyes and combine them into one big soc in theory i don't really buy this but in theory it would allow apple to divorce the beefiness of the cpu from the beefiness of the gpu because they can mix and match in practice a i don't think apple would do that and b i'm not sure how much flexibility there is because the way they get connected together seems very intimate and regimented because it's not like someone joked in their thing like imagine if they had the gpu on a separate card from the cpu like in the old days when they were separated the whole point of apple's architecture is like they're so close to each other or on the same die because there are performance benefits so this soic thing is not like oh just have separate cpu and gpu again they're literally on top of each other they're touching each other so they're trying to get all the performance power latency so on and so forth benefits of having an all-in-one die while still being able to fab them separately i don't think apple will mix and match because someone's like i want a really big gpu but i don't need this freaking you know 28 core cpu can i get a smaller core count on the cpu but the biggest GPU and you can now fantasize that that will be possible with this SOIC thing.

53:40I just don't think Apple will do it, but there's that. We were sponsored this episode by Sentry. If you're listening to our show, chances are you've probably built an app, whether it's a website, a mobile app, a backend, and you don't want to have bugs. Who does? So Sentry helps you find and fix bugs faster so you can deliver the great experience that you and your users expect from your software. Sentry supports just about any language and framework you'd want, including Swift, RN, Python, Node. So whatever it is, your whole stack is covered. And of course, Sentry supports every Apple platform natively from watchOS to visionOS and everything in between.

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55:41Then they also announced the M5 iPad Pro. This is going to be a little bit interesting. So models with one terabyte, excuse me, less than one terabyte of storage getting nine core CPU, three performance, which is down one from the M5 MacBook Pro and 6 efficiency. They get 12 gigs of RAM. Models with 1 terabyte or 2 terabytes of storage get a 10-core CPU with 4 performance 6 efficiency, like the M5 MacBook Pro, and 16 gigs of RAM. And all of the models share a 10-core GPU. I was trying to figure out also, you know, time constraints, the fact that there's no binned M5 for the MacBook Pro, because we just read there's binned based on storage, which is so weird, but whatever.

56:25They've been doing it this way on the iPad Pro. If you get less storage, you get a binned M5 on the iPad Pro. But no matter what M5 MacBook Pro you get, all the cores work on all of them. Did they do that with the M4 as well? Yes. The M4. So when you get to the MacBook Pro family, the base model M chip is considered the lowest end option. And so they give you the best one of those. and but like in the you know whenever they inevitably release like an m5 macbook air for instance there will be almost certainly binned base m5s in the map in the low-end configuration of the macbook air but once you get to the pro it was always like all right the base m chip this is always the best version of that then you can get binned m4 pros and correct you can still today buy binned m4 pros um i don't the maxes do they bin those two i think they do this time they don't always yeah i think they do again because the bigger you make the chip the more likely there's going to be some flaw somewhere and they want to be able to make money of those so they'll sell the binned ones exactly and let's actually get this you know part of what i'm saying about like if you actually if you don't need like massive gpu performance when you look at the cpu performance of like the the base m4 and compare it to the m4 pro especially the binned m4 pros that you get for going like a few hundred dollars up you're actually not having that big of a gain and then to get the full cores of the pro chip it's like 800 more than the cost of the base chip model here so you end up paying a a large premium for some more cpu performance but it's actually like the the base model chip is where all the value is like if you're trying to maximize bang for your buck that's it it's the base model m4 m5 that's it so with the m5 iPad Pro, you get up to two times faster storage read and write speeds.

58:21You get the C1X in the cellular version. You get the N1 for Wi-Fi 7, Bluetooth 6, and Thread, which, John, that is different from the M5 MacBook Pro because that was Wi-Fi 6, right? I can't scroll that quickly. 6E. 6E, thank you. The Macs have been stuck. The Macs have not had Wi-Fi 7, and we're hoping with the M5 generation they would get Wi-Fi 7. Well, maybe they still will, but not the base M5 MacBook pro but the m5 ipad pro does get all the new fancy chips from the uh iphone air gets a c1x it gets the n1 the n1 was used in all the new phones why didn't they put the n1 in the m5 macbook pro i don't know but they didn't uh so you get like i said wi-fi 7 bluetooth 6 and thread you can drive external displays with this as you could before except at up to 120 hertz interesting Interesting.

59:12And additionally, it supports adaptive sync for lower latency. you can fast charge up to 50 about half an hour with a 40 watt adapter or higher there are the same sizes and same weights as the m4 models 11 inch and 13 inch the nanotexture is a 100 option and it's only available on the one and two terabyte models the storage options speaking of are 256 512 one and two terabytes the price starts at a thousand bucks for wi-fi with 256 gigs again pre-order today in stores a week from today as we record this um and so that is the new m5 ipad pro john are you buying one uh no i mean like so i again my use my ipad i bought it when they got the oled screen because i use it as a little tv this has the same screen so i have no reason to get this i don't i'm not an ipad power user but uh it's a good ipad if you want if you didn't buy an m4 led one and you want a little tv this is great highly recommended uh and if you want a powerful ipad because you're that kind of person this one's even better than the m4 one didn't change anything else about it there were some rumors like oh they're gonna add a second camera so there's one on the long edge and one on the short edge they didn't do that like there's it's this if you have to characterize this whole set of announcements like take our existing products that had other chips in them and put in m5s and don't change much else i'm actually kind of surprised that they swapped in the c1x and the n1 but i guess in a low power device like an ipad they figured it was worth it whereas in the uh macbook pro they're like that's the base macbook pro and we got a big battery anyway i don't know what the thing is like it's it's been a shame that the macs have been kept out of the wi-fi 7 family for so long and it still seems to continue i'll be really disappointed if the m5 pro and max uh macbook pros that are released next year also don't have wi-fi 7 yeah i think i think the time has come for that but we'll yeah we'll see i think this this new ipad it looks it you know and we'll get to this in in the vision pro segment in a second probably but like it it is exactly a a speed bump update you know again just like that m4 the m5 uh macbook pro it's a speed bump update and it's to a really good speed and it's to a product that is already like you know the ipad and the macbook pro like these are already really great products really high end you know great performance like great everything um if you happen to use this product and need a really nice one that's a really nice one the ipad pro is not something i really use so i i don't have much else to say about it because they've pushed the the hardware and the price so far up that i feel like if you're buying this you probably really like it a lot and really use it a lot and neither of those are really the case for me but it looks like a really good update for people who for whom it is the case the time has come the m5 apple vision pro is here uh this is the first revision of the vision pro since it came out in what february of 24 do i have that right something like that um and so we're reading from apple's newsroom with m5 apple vision pro renders 10 more pixels on the custom micro oled displays compared to the previous generation resulting in a sharper image with crisper text mark alarmant and more detailed visuals vision pro can also increase the refresh rate up to 120 hertz for reduced motion blur when users look at their physical surroundings and even and an even smoother experience when using mac virtual display uh and the verge writes the previous maximum refresh rate was 100 hertz also ai powered features like persona or spatial photos are up to 50 faster and the battery life is also improved by about 30 minutes to about two and a half hours of general use and three hours of video playback that's nice that that uh that you do get a battery life bump in this because it seems like they basically only change the soc and i guess the m2 is old and this is three nanometer and whatever the m2 was that can make some sense but anyway the bit about rendering 10 more pixels on the screen uh the way i interpret that and apple hasn't said anything to uh negate this is that the screens are the same like the hardware the actual hardware that's those are exactly the same as they've ever been but kind of like uh when you're used to playing video games there is a difference between the render resolution and the display resolution so internally a game for example can render the scene at some resolution but then when it comes time to display it it may have rendered it as a at a smaller resolution than your screen or it may have rendered it at a bigger resolution than your screen and it will scale it either up or down to fit the display and my understanding of the statement is that they are going to have a 10 percent larger 10 percent more pixels in their render resolution before they say okay now display this on the eye displays and i'm assuming they're mostly scaling up to the eye displays because as marco's pointed out in the past like they don't have even resolution distribution like you have more pixel density in the center again not the hardware that software wise like when they have the image that they're showing you the image of the world or the images of your windows floating in the world or whatever they render it with more detail in the part where you're first of all they have foveated rendering which is like tracks where you're looking and renders it more detail there yeah that honestly that's kind of what i assumed this was referring to i thought they were saying i mean again we don't know yet i i assumed by saying 10 more pixels i thought maybe they're going to just increase the size of the foveated in focus range a little bit it all amounts to the same thing because if you take the image that they eventually display it's not like a normal rectangular looking image it's some weird warp thing that they you know put through the lenses and everything like so if you spend more pixels if you make if you're going to make the foveated rendering area bigger you'd have to spend more pixels to render more information there before it gets squished down um yeah so that's what i'm that's what i'm assuming they're doing that their their render target like internally in memory has 10 more pixels but then they take that image and squish it down onto the same screen they always had now where those pixels end up probably they added more in the center maybe they added more detail around the edges so the edges aren't as blurry as they were i don't know um maybe when somebody gets one of these and starts to test it they can figure it out either way 10 is not a lot um so i wouldn't expect miracles from this like clearer text or whatever maybe it's better but like they didn't change the screens it seems like if they had i feel like they would be touting that like the micro led displays are exactly the same as they were on the original vision pro according to everything that apple has put out today that is not at all what i got from this announcement i assumed it meant that the displays were a little bit bigger but you're probably right and i'm probably wrong to be honest with you but if they are bigger i mean that'll that'll as soon as someone gets one of these and breaks it up and we'll find out like if they're if the screens are 10 bigger that should be pretty obvious to someone with a ruler but i don't think they would have used the term pixels then like you know so that's i it seems like they have made a couple of improvements to the displays that i think were actually not rumored at all like you know the rumors were like it'll be an m5 update okay no one knew anything about it really oh and the strap was rumored too um but it seems like you know whatever the 10 more pixels which i'm pretty sure is the foveated rendering thing but we'll find out they're rendering more of that and i think one of the interesting parts is they said that they are um they're officially saying 120 hertz now which is what the up to uh level of the screen which i believe it was not discussed before but i think it was 90 in the first generation one that was 100 we just said oh right sorry 100 previous maximum was 100 okay and then um they also said that the pass-through video now runs at a higher refresh rate which that's been one of the areas that like if you ever used a meta quest headset and then you use a vision pro you're like wow the the meta quest like it's much lower resolution but the the pass-through video is so fast and so smooth because that's something that's made to be used with with the user in constant motion if you're playing games you are in constant motion so the the pass-through video experience is very important to be very fast very low latency and That's something that the first-generation Vision Pro, I always notice that this is obviously a device made to be used just when the user is stationary, when you are sitting on a couch or something.

1:07:10And the pass-through video was always a little bit smeary and blurry and laggy. It's still, you know, the resolution of it was way better than the Quest series headsets, but the motion was not. So this sounds like they've made a substantial improvement to the pass-through video as well. I am interested to hear about that. like whenever we know somebody who has one of these things i'm definitely not buying one but whenever we know somebody who has one i am curious just to hear like how much better is the pass through motion than it was before yeah and the up to is key here like in the swapping out the m2 the m5 the m5 is more powerful it's got more powerful everything in it so to the extent that the m2 was holding it back from maintaining that maximum of 100 hertz because i think 100 hertz would look smooth but it was it's up to like that's the maximum so if things get laggy or whatever it's going to update at a lower refresh rate so hopefully not only will this be able to reach a higher peak of 120 instead of 100 but it'll be able to sustain a higher one without taxing the soc because again we've made a lot of progress from the m2 to the m5 so that's reaping the benefits from that all right so it still uses the original r1 it comes with apple's new 40 to 60 watt dynamic power adapter it is still on wi-fi 6 and bluetooth 5.3 not even 6e because the the Vision Pro had Wi-Fi 6, not 6E.

1:08:28So no change there from the launch version. Pricing, storage, and RAM are also unchanged. You can preorder today, as with the other devices in store on Wednesday the 22nd. And also, dear Vision Pro, original Vision Pro owners, get beat, love Apple, because you cannot trade in your original M2 Vision Pro. Sorry about that. Womp womp. But tough noogies. I mean, maybe they'll change that. but uh yeah that's disappointing because i bet they'd get a lot of takers the biggest fans of the thing are like well i love this thing but i'm not going to pay another 300 or 500 bucks can i trade this in nope i i don't i mean well we'll get to the i guess we'll get to the skepticism in a minute but like i just frankly i i don't think there's going to be that many people who are rushing to upgrade uh i think if you if you spent thirty five hundred dollars plus on this thing two years ago, I can't imagine that you're like, I've gotten so much value out of that.

1:09:28I definitely want to spend another$3 ,500 plus on the next one already so soon with not substantially more content or apps than we had two years ago. I think that's going to be a tough sell. I think this does not feel like an update to expand its market for lots of reasons. This feels like an update to keep the product alive for a little while longer while they figure out what to do about it. You know, this is again, it's a spec bump. It's a nice spec bump. But if you look at all the reasons people would not have bought the first one, they have solved literally zero of them with this update. Like it's still the same design.

1:10:12It's still big, heavy. It's still massively expensive compared to any other VR headset on the market. It still has very little content, very few apps. It's in a rough spot in terms of like, who's buying this? I think what they have found is they have a small market for it, probably with people who are making 3D content or making immersive video, making immersive content. So you have like the high-end content creators and editors and stuff like that who are using them. You probably have some specialized industrial kind of uses, but probably not a huge market for that. This is a product that justifies almost no investment from Apple, and so it has gotten almost no investment from Apple.

1:10:57This is literally keeping it alive until they figure out what to do next, which might be not much in this area. But for all the reasons that this market is so small, this will address zero of those reasons. This will not expand the market at all. All it does is keep this product from dying for another few years, and then we'll see what happens. Two zeros in there. It solves zeros of the problems and does zero expansion of the market or something. I agree with you on the market expansion, but I feel like the strap with the top thing maybe solves one of the 10 ,000 problems in the first one. Wow.

1:11:33First of all, excuse me, sir, it's 3 ,500 problems. No, to be clear, we're talking about the dual knit band, which basically imagine the crank to expand or contract band that goes behind your head. will stick another one of those on top of your head. And I think Federico originally found an Etsy person that 3D printed some sort of housing, for lack of a better word, or adapter mount thing where you could get a second solo knit band, so the second thing that goes behind your head, and plug it into this thing. For a hundred more dollars. For a hundred more dollars and plug it into this thing. And so you have this$200 plus 50 bucks for the trinket or whatever to mount it on.

1:12:18You have this like$250 Rube Goldberg mount but allegedly it was incredibly comfortable yes i have that and it is it's way like once i discovered that and put in yes another hundred and the bracket was like 30 bucks like 100 another 130 bucks 100 to apple 30 to the bracket um it does dramatically improve the comfort but again like it fixes none of the other problems so like okay that that helps but i don't if you look if you ask people what's you know what are the top three reasons you're not buying this i don't know that comfort would have made the list for most people i think there it has larger challenges that's not why they're not buying it that's a complaint of people who have bought it yes yeah that's fair but again but it's like okay well suppose you fix the comfort now you have you know battery life isolation and the lack of content to deal with so like it's even if you saw even if you ignore the price which you shouldn't uh but even if you do again this is they're they're keeping it alive and i i think what they're they're obviously like they're they're doing like the the new um live sports thing that they're attempting to get off the ground the black magic cameras are finally kind of getting out there in the world you know they're trickling out so i think what they're doing is the they're seeing that like the the foundations for the content ecosystem are very slowly being laid they're very slowly growing over time there might be a decent amount of immersive video content being produced and being available for it that time has not yet come, but it is very slowly.

1:13:50It's like, you know, like starting a car in fifth gear, like you're very slowly creeping and like getting a little bit faster, a little bit, but there is such a long way to go. And so I think this is them buying time. This is them saying, look, half the company already, like when the vision pro launched, half the company didn't support it. Like the Apple's own apps are barely available for it. Most of them are still iPad apps. apple has put in not that much work but they put in a little bit and they don't want this whole segment of the of their product line to die they don't want all this work to be for nothing tim cook as we know is obsessed with ar and sees this as a path to get there even though i don't think it is i think those are separate things with separate needs anyway well another time so that you know there are some people who believe heavily in this but also it sells nothing so it is not worth a whole bunch of investment from the company in both hardware engineering or in software support, honestly.

1:14:53And so that's what we're seeing. We're seeing Apple is very slowly kind of trickling things out for it and waiting for that content ecosystem to eventually develop. They're, I don't think, doing a whole lot to help it. They're certainly not doing as much as they could to help it, but they're waiting for that to develop. And they really believe it will. So in the meantime, we just have to keep this product going because without this product, it will not develop. So we're going to keep this product existing, but it's mostly going to be bought by people who are in the business of making content for it, not watching content on it and not using apps for it and everything else.

1:15:32And we'll see over time if it ever becomes worth launching another one. Again, I wouldn't consider that a guarantee. this could be the last apple vision product that's ever made we don't know yet um and i don't know if they know yet to be honest um but what they did was keep this product the same and just you know hit refresh and and just update the year 2025 and we'll we'll see whatever happens i don't think we're going to hear any more about it after this hardware update than we have been hearing about it i think it's going to continue to be this kind of baseline level product that is occasionally the butt of jokes but that most people just don't think about it all most of the time um and it will very very slowly accumulate more content and maybe someday that will be enough i still don't think they're doing enough to help to help and support that but hey here it is here's another one that's the same as the first one i think the most important role this product has is to stop people from buying the m2 based one because even if like if you're going to continue i don't think that was really you know they're not like holding the door back on that i know but like every like over as the years progress every one of those m2 one that gets out there just make like as you pointed out just kind of makes it harder for the ecosystem to ever take off because people are buying just ancient hardware and you're like oh if only i could do this thing you have to start even though like the ecosystem doesn't warrant it really you do have to get some you start to have to get some hardware turnover in there even if it's only like people break their old one and when they go to buy a new one like they shouldn't buy an m2 like it shouldn't be 2030 and they're buying an m2 based product right for 3500 right so that's what i feel like is important if obviously they've continued they're deciding they're going to continue this product line right that's the decision they've made you have to put out something that doesn't have an m2 in it because i mean when this came out the m2 was already not the latest shipper was on the verge of not being the latest chip right yeah it was i think it had already been replaced in like the macbook air or something and then but not everything else yet yeah anyway it's important to just keep that turnover and it is nice you get a couple of little boosts and like to show like when you have an m5 in there it's like oh we can do some fairly minor tweaks to the software that actually like now that we have an m5 we can do 120 hertz maybe the minimum frame rate will be higher maybe we you know it takes less time to do those persona things so stuff that was clunky before oh and we get a free half an hour battery life in a thing that has crappy battery life so now it's slightly less crappy right you know it's it's fine and as for the the band thing like i'm i have never tried this band like this marco you said the etsy one that you got is comfortable it's great looking looking at this i do wonder like how much of an improvement it's going to be because the thing didn't get any lighter and it just has one dial like obviously when you have the two of them you have two dials because you have two complete solo things this i think it just has one dial like i Is it just one dial that tightens both?

1:18:27Correct, yeah. So we don't actually know, like, you know, does it, does the top one, is the top one fixed? Does it tighten both at the same time? Does it tighten them at different ratios? You know, who knows? Maybe the right side does top and the left side does back. I don't know. They did say, though, that you don't have to actually buy the new Vision Pro to get this. This strap will be sold separately and it works on the first one, too. Yeah, and it's$99, so it's half the price of buying two solo knit bands and an Etsy thing. Yeah, but I mean, the Etsy thing with the two-knit bands, as compared to the original solo band, it's a totally different way of supporting it because it uses the top of your head, not just the back.

1:19:04And as compared to the Apple top and back Velcro strap thing they made, it's way cushier and way more supportive and way easier to adjust quickly. so it's great like you know before i had the dual solo knit thing for mine whenever i would be like showing it off to people i would i would swap on the solo knit because it was easier to adjust quickly this you know you don't want to like be doing with the you know the velcro big strap on with somebody like oh you pinch their hair hold on undo it like it's very inelegant when you're trying to show the vision pro to somebody else which was the main activity you did when you first bought a vision pro um but then the you know when i was as soon as i got this you know my hack to do the dual strap, I kept that on forever after that and never changed it out.

1:19:48And it was far better for both my own use and for showing it to other people and passing it around to other people. So I think this band is going to be a big hit, but it's a big hit to a very, very small market. So great. Look, it's like the Mac Pro getting new wheels. Someone's going to use those. Not a ton of people, but for the people who do use it, it helps and that's that's this band if you are a regular vision pro user and you are not yet using one of the you know etsy dual solo band hacks i would strongly recommend checking out this band yeah i mean i'm excited to at some point give it a shot some way somehow um i am using the belkin strap that that you it's you use the the fancy apple one in the back and then there's like this velcro thing in the top and that's pretty good but the problem with that is is that you can't use the developer strap with it for verbally complicated reasons to describe.

1:20:46And although I don't use the developer strap that often, there have been occasions where I've wanted to use it because I'm doing Vision Pro development or because I'm doing the Mac virtual display in an environment that does not have stellar Wi-Fi. And this, from what I can tell, should work with the developer strap, which is also a big improvement. Additionally, one last, or a couple of more accessories. Apple will start selling the PlayStation VR 2 Sense controller on November 11th for$250. And additionally, the Logitech Muse Spatial Stylus, which is basically you can draw in thin air, so to speak, that's$130.

1:21:18And I believe that's available now. Yes, it looks like it is. Cool. So we do have an additional bit of somewhat breaking news from a couple of days ago. Apple announced that F1, the movie, is making its streaming debut on December 12th. And let me do a quick aside. I know we already talked about the F1 movie. I watched it again recently and I gotta tell you it is a deeply unserious movie from the perspective of an F1 fan but it's also super fun so I definitely recommend once it lands in Apple TV Plus which we're about to talk about once it lands in Apple TV Plus then you should give it a shot I think there are much worse ways to spend a couple hours of your time anyways, reading from MacRumors buried in its announcement about F1 the movie making its streaming debut on December 12th Apple has also announced that Apple TV Plus is now being rebranded as simply Apple TV.

1:22:09A single line near the end of the press release states, quote, Apple TV is, excuse me, Apple TV Plus is now simply Apple TV with a vibrant new identity. Apple's blurb about the streaming service at the bottom of the press release also reflects the updated naming. Quote, Apple TV is available on the Apple TV app in over 100 countries and regions on over 1 billion screens, including iPhone, iPad, Apple TV, Apple Vision Pro, Mac, and popular smart TVs. This, of course, everyone made the same joke concurrently. You can watch Apple TV on your Apple TV using the Apple TV app. So you can do Apple TV on Apple TV on Apple TV, which is hilarious.

1:22:45But the more I thought about it, my first reaction was, are you kidding me? But the more I thought about it, the more I think, honestly, this is probably for the best. It makes sense that the TV service named Apple TV would be in an app named Apple TV. That's how streaming services work. HBO is available in an app called HBO. you know netflix is available in an app called netflix like so that part makes sense i think it is only the long time existence of the apple tv box that makes it especially weird but no what about the the tv app the netflix app just shows you netflix but the apple tv app doesn't just show you apple that's true yeah i guess that part is it is like the it is the the button on the remote by default takes you there it is like the hub of their tv watching experience that other things plug into so already even before you consider the hardware box there's still some confusion also by the way that apple tv app is just called tv like in the icon like it doesn't it has the apple logo so it's an apple logo tv but like we refer to it as the apple tv app but we also say the tv app a lot of the time right and anyway before we get to the hardware just talking about the apple tv plus name uh as we'll see but eddie cube is gonna read some quotes from him from a podcast pretty soon talking about the renaming and people saying well it makes sense blah blah that's what people called that anyway here's the problem i think at least half the people that i know that regularly miss miss name the apple tv plus service call it drum roll please apple twos oh yeah okay fair no that's fair you're right and i you know i don't blame them i don't blame people for getting it wrong it's confusing some people call it apple tv some people call it apple plus uh as of yesterday or whenever neither of those was right they've only helped half of those people yeah i i have never heard a non-apple nerd correctly name the apple tv plus service ever they they've said everything like you said and i mean granted a lot of times this doesn't matter like you know i've I've also very rarely heard anybody say Apple Watch.

1:24:52Everyone says iWatch still. Really? I don't hear that much. Oh my God, I hear iWatch so much from regular people. I do think it makes sense overall to call it Apple TV. However, I do have a terrible idea. This is what I was teasing earlier. It's not a very good idea. It's a terrible idea. I've heard a terrible idea on the internet. Should I say my terrible idea of I heard on the internet first, or do you want me to wait until after? In case it's the same, I want to still think I came up with this. Okay, go ahead. All right. Apple TV is the service. The app also makes sense because it's Apple TV for the most part.

1:25:32But what has more things than the Apple TV and Apple TV app? The box. So I think they should rename the box Apple TV Plus. that's a terrible that is worse than the idea that i was thinking of congratulations a truly terrible idea because that makes sense the box is the apple tv app plus a bunch of other stuff well so is the app though unfortunately as previously noted the apple tv app is also apple tv plus it's not not an amazing concept so that so the app should be everything should be called plus except for the service because okay look and the app right now the box you know they had like apple tv hd and 4k but you know it's 2025 next time they update the box just calling an apple tv 4k is a little bit you know that's like that's like gateway 2000 still being called gateway 2000 in 2005 which it wasn't for that reason um so like they they should rename the box from apple tv 4k to something else apple tv plus there it is it's sitting right now it's unused do you want to do you want to hear the the uh the idea that i was thinking of that is not as bad as yours but it's still terrible i would like to hear it you i'm sure you both already have people saying that it should be named home pod something oh yeah the hardware box the hardware box should be called like home pod tv or like they're basically to latch onto the home pod video the hardware yeah because like whatever because because the hardware things they put in your house that like don't have screens and stuff are home pods and why is this one not called the home pod and i think it's a terrible idea because a home pods have a bad reputation and b it's not a home pod i guess i don't know like they could do whatever they want with the names of their product but it doesn't make much sense but no apple tv plus is worse just congratulations i was thinking i mean another name they might give it is apple home maybe like the next box could be yeah yeah well i mean they don't want to give up all that brand equity of the home pod right which everyone knows and loves apple tv max oh no i think hbo might have a problem with that yeah That was the jokes about the device being renamed with Max or Pro.

1:27:36So far, Apple TV Plus is not as bad as these other ideas that I'm hearing. No, Apple TV Plus is worse. So read from Eddie's interview. I think he explains why. All right. So Eddie Q is on the Town podcast. And at around five and a half minutes or thereabouts, Matt Bologna, who's the host, says, How many management consultants did it take to tell you to drop the Plus from Apple TV Plus? which credit to Matt Baloney, because that's a very good assumption. However, Eddie said, zero. Matt said, you just decided? Eddie said, I just decided. We just decided. Look, we put the plus in there because we've used it in our other services like iCloud Plus, News Plus, but we do that when we have a free service and then there's a paid version.

1:28:15We stayed consistent because of it, but we all called it Apple TV and we said, given where we are today, it's a great time to do it, so let's just do it. Matt then replies, I remember when you announced that Disney was annoyed, remember, because they had Disney Plus coming. Eddie says, I do. Matt says, now, I guess maybe they'll be happier. Maybe when you own them someday, you can bring it back. You now have this potential confusion though with other hardware. Twitch Eddie replies, our hardware is called Apple TV 4K for your TV. I think that's fine, and the app is called Apple TV. It's been called Apple TV on our third party products as well.

1:28:47So I don't think that'll be a problem at all. Yeah, so this is the pitch for the Plus. I don't remember the history of plus like who did it first or whatever at least the timeline in this interview is explaining that disney plus was coming but there was a trend of putting a plus symbol at the end of some brand name to say this is a streaming service that you pay for or whatever and you have things like peacock that didn't do that but the plus stuck on the end was common and apple had its own icloud plus news plus again i don't remember who was first but i think apple was pretty early in the sticking plus on the end of things to say it's a thing that you pay for apple tv math yeah so with with the plus symbol on things that you pay for eddie's logic is uh say well we have this consistency but it wasn't actually that consistent because like we only put plus on things that you used to get for free now i know icloud there was a free version and then icloud plus was a pay because you get some measly amount of storage for free blah blah blah and you get a plus and you pay that's true was there a free version of news is there a free version of news i don't think so uh i no i think there is i think you just you don't have access to as much stuff yeah maybe um but anyway with the apple tv plus he's like well there was never a free version of that so when apple comes out with the not inevitable but many people think is inevitable ad supported free version of apple tv did they put the plus back on then so so that's that's a i did see that that theory floated that this is just like preparing for a future day where there's a paid version that they call apple tv plus again and then it's just gonna be a nightmare for them to put the plus back on honestly i don't necessarily i mean so on one hand if you look around the streaming service business every other streaming service has realized that you can make more total money having a free tier with ads than only having a paid service but i don't necessarily think it's a given that apple will go that way if anyone's gonna hold off from it it would be apple yeah number one like apple is really good at making people pay for stuff.

1:30:42And they have higher end customers who are more willing to pay for stuff. And they're really bad at selling ads. Yeah. Number two, they suck at selling ads. Like anything Apple does that is ad supported, including News Plus to some degree, like it's really half butted. Yeah, the ads in News Plus are grim. Yeah. And to actually sell the inventory of a popular free streaming service, you need a pretty good ad sales business. That's not something that you can just quickly outsource or quickly whip something together. That's a lot of inventory of reasonably well-paying ads. To sell that, they would need a substantial sales arm.

1:31:21If you look at what the business people all said when Netflix was investing in their ad tier, it was a big operation to get that going. It takes a lot of hiring and build-out and talent and relationship building to be able to sell that many ads. I don't think Apple has it in them, to be honest. That's so outside of their usual comfort zone and abilities. I don't necessarily think they're going to go that way. And it's outside their technology in that they don't collect all the data that advertisers would want to precisely target ads because Apple literally doesn't collect that stuff or collects it in a way.

1:31:56Well, when it comes to Apple selling their own ads, they're happy to do that. They throw all that out the window. Yeah, but selling it out to third parties. Yeah. No, I mean, look, Apple will Apple would not shy away from using all of your personal information to target ads to you. They would absolutely do that if they if they were going all in. But I think I think they would shy away from that, like in terms of like what the other companies do, which is like detecting what you're viewing by reading the screen, like the Vizio TVs or whatever that company was doing. Like it's so commonplace now that like not only through every app and every thing that goes through Apple software, but also even when you're not going through Apple software, because you're using the Apple TV streaming app or whatever, we can detect what's on your screen and figure out what it is and do all this like super creepy stuff that Apple just doesn't do.

1:32:41And I don't think would do. And it makes them less able to sell ads because they don't have as granular and invasive data to sell against. I mean, they have good data. I mean, you know, look at App Store ads. App Store search ads. it's probably, if I had to guess, that might be Apple's largest ad platform. And it's, you know, they do a lot of volume because you have to. It's not a very good system. It's not very advanced. They have not put a ton of effort into it. And it is not nearly as targeted as, you know, something like buying Facebook ads. There's no prescription drug ads in the app store search ads.

1:33:16Yeah, well, there's a lot of crap in there, though. I know. It's not like News Plus with boner pills or whatever. But I do think when Apple, if you look at search ads, they do use your data to try to influence those, to try to rank them. And they ask you sometimes, occasionally in a weird way, but they do use it. They are happy to use first-party data about what apps you search for, what apps you use. And if it came to it, if they actually decided to do a large ad play in TV, they would be happy to do the same thing they don't need to you know read your screen to know what you're watching they know what you're watching already because it's their apps playing to give another example would they go they go through everything every purchase you made with your apple card i don't think only i don't think so only because i don't think they would be able to get their technical act together to actually do that it's a question of whether it's technical competence or refusals to gather data but like the granularity of data that other companies are willing to gather from all sources they can possibly get to target ads precisely like someone who just looked at a web page that had this thing on it and has this history of buying things at amazon and has this credit score and just like they'll go much farther than apple can as you're to your point with technically capability but i think they'll also go farther than apple will but anyway we'll see if they ever make an ad-free version of this but if i had to make a pitch for why if i had to if i was aq in this interview and and said uh explain to me why the heck you did this renaming thing here's what have been my pitch apple tv the streaming service is the thing with the most sort of brand value in this stew of stuff apple tv shows and movies like movies win oscars the shows win emmys if there's anything that the public has any consciousness of any of apple's tv crap it's because of like ted lasso or you know like the it's the streaming service and the content made for it has the widest awareness in the people in the world they don't have to be apple fans they don't have to have any apple hardware or any apple software just they bought a tv it came with an app and had an apple logo on it someone said watch ted lasso you said what's that they go to the apple thing they went to the apple thing they watched ted lasso right that is your sort of brand crown jewel so give that one the name that is closest to what people are saying some people are saying we used to say apple plus because you're stupid past naming bad decisions but other people said apple tv maybe it's the majority of the people so we're going to call it apple tv the hardware effectively nobody buys that like compared to the number of people who watch ted lasso versus the number of people who buy apple tv pucks so few people buy it it doesn't matter what it's called but calling the hardware essentially the same as your streaming service it's fine because it's like oh if you're buying this you probably know what apple tv is like the streaming service and this is the hardware thing there's a soft there's a streaming service called apple tv and this is like it's like a netflix box you know you could buy a netflix box and watch netflix on it why would you do that it comes with my tv exactly so nobody buys these things but calling the hardware apple tv i think also makes sense especially where will apple does not actually make a television set which would confuse things further um and i know there's rumors all these years ago and that's what the home pod project came out of but right now they don't make one so calling the hardware thing apple tv is also fine then you have the app and honestly i don't know how many people outside tech circles who would ever call that app apple tv they may call it the apple tv app or they may say just go to tv or they may say go to apple tv but no one knows or cares what the names of those apps are because they're just icons on your screen and so who cares what that one's called honestly i don't know if it actually is called apple tv i know the the icon is an apple logo and the lowercase letters tv under the covers what is that dot app called who the hell knows who cares like it's nothing that comes up in the interface right and so i think actually that that's that's why this renaming is fine we gave the simple name to the thing that everybody knows the hardware doesn't matter but it makes sense for it to match the simple name that everybody knows and nobody cares knows or cares what the app is called so done and done and it's mostly just a curiosity to tech nerds um and hopefully they'll never need to do this again don't bring back the plus don't go hbo max max like just just let it let it fly apple tv and you know i'm not saying they should get rid of the tv box because i i like it and i hope they never stop making it because the other boxes out there are worse but just keep making it for the few people who like it and everyone else will just buy a tv and find the icon that looks like this picture here and click on it and watch apple tv which is the only thing they know about sorted uh and then with regard to the vibrant new identity apparently there's what did they say and i think it was upgrade there's some smeared uh gradients on there and we'll put a link to six colors where there's a photo of the new icon that's all we've seen as we record this presumably there will be more in the future yeah like it's still a black rectangle with a white apple logo and the white lowercase letters TV.

1:38:20But now the white Apple logo and the white lowercase letters TV have some Siri-looking kind of rainbow-y tinge to them. Yeah. Which, I mean, fine. It looks nice. I don't know what it says representing. Was the previous one only black and white? And now that they have color video? Oh, wow. I don't know. All right, fine. Now in Technicolor. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe someday Apple's political activities will line up with their rainbow branding. Ooh, sick burn. All right. Thanks to our sponsors this week, Sentry and Grammarly. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at ATP.fm slash join.

1:38:56One of the many perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week on Overtime, we're going to be talking about Alexa Plus and how it is finally hitting the real world and what people think about it and how it works. So you can join to listen, ATP.fm slash join. Thank you so much to everybody. And we'll talk to you next week. Now the show is over They didn't even mean to begin Cause it was accidental Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental Oh it was accidental And you can find the show notes at atp.fm And if you're into Mastodon You can follow them At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey Liss m-a-r-c-o-a-r-m-n-t marco arm and s-i-r-a-c-u-s-a-s-arcusa it's accidental they didn't mean to accidental

1:40:18all right so john you apparently have been on a quest tell me about this i have well it's not much of a quest it's just we thought we were all done with phone setup when we said that we all got our new phones we talked about them all that stuff and i noted that i was getting new phones for my children but they're away at college so the new phones were just sitting on the desk and so they i hadn't set up their phones and so i had a phone i had a phone setup process waiting for me you figure haven't we already talked everything there is haven't we said everything there is to say about the setup process last time we talked about it apparently not because i mean or it's maybe it's just amnesia because i know as i noted every time i have to set up a phone which is i have to set up a phone every year i only buy new phones for myself once every other year but every year someone's getting a new phone because i my wife and i alternate years and the kids get phones occasionally or whatever and i always just forget all of the the you know the things that i should remember and the things that i should avoid or whatever because it just doesn't happen enough to stick in my mind and usually because i'm so angry about it because i have to end up getting an iphone day and i end up calling verizon and it's just blah blah anyway here's to remind myself maybe next year uh to not make these same mistakes so first when i'm setting up the phone for my kid like first kid came home from school and i'm setting up their phone uh and you know i i tell them as you know you'll be you'll be without your phone for about four hours but you'll get it back and it's not really going to be four hours but you want to you know set expectations so they're not annoyed about it and they say no i don't have four hours now fine just tell me tell me when you can be without your phone for four hours give me your phone and i'll do the setup because never the other phone there because i'm doing like device to device transfer um see previous episodes about the different techniques when i'm doing this there's usually a step where it's like oh do face id setup uh and i believe you can skip it you can say oh i don't want to do this now i'll do it later but i don't want to skip it because i just want to get it over with and get it done and be able to hand off the phone to them and especially if i know where the kid is now i can say oh here just do the face id thing and my kids know how to do the face id thing if they're apple kids they've had apple hardware before so i have to give the phone to them for them to do face id and this year probably i'm sure i've done this before i did it again it's like going through the setup blah blah blah oh face id oh i walk into the other room give it to my daughter i say he did the face id thing guess what now i walk too far away from the other phone because i left the other phone on the table and now i've gone too far away and the setup process aborts because it's like nope lost connection to the other phone which can never be regained because we don't have that technology because you walk two feet too far away from the other phone i'm like okay well that sucks i should remember that i know that happens just all right start the setup over now i'm going through the setup this time on the face id setup i go over there with both phones through the face id you know making sure they're staying near each other i come back eventually i get to the point where it's like time to set up siri um and i'm like haha i'm not gonna make the mistake again i'm gonna get up and you know because it's like i think it wants you to say stuff like hey dingus what's the weather or whatever like and again i think there's a skip but i'm always like is this gonna is this trying to remember my voice i don't want to do it because i don't want to remember my voice from my daughter's phone because our voices don't sound the same right so i bring the two phones over to my daughter and say here just do what it says on the screen say you know what's the weather blah blah blah right uh and i bring the other phone because i don't want the process to abort but when she's doing it she says hey dingus what's the weather the other phone is nearby and it answers and activates oh my god and she's she's going through the tutorial but her other phone her old phone is answering it and by answering it and going through that process it aborts the setup because now it's too far into the siri like thing or whatever and not only does it abort the setup process now it requires erasing the new phone and starting completely over no choice it's like sorry setup has been aborted because essentially the old phone got out of that little screen where it shows that white card at the bottom it says you know finish on other phone or whatever you're like god don't touch it don't touch anything on the old phone siri came and was answering those queries and aborted the whole setup process and the only way forward was erase the new phone start completely over again and erasing a phone takes a while even though we hadn't done everything yet so that's that's two two that's two strikes and the third strike third time and now i know like i mean i'm gonna have to like muffle the other phone but keep it nearby i think i skipped the series setup process which is the smarter thing to do anything anytime you can skip those that's what it's what i'm learning i want to remind myself during the setup when you're doing a thing skip everything until you get through all the hurdles and then do them because if anything perturbs this process, you have to start over.

1:44:55And then finally, during some later part of this process, since my kids have stuff on their phones from the days before they had Apple IDs, the days before there was an Apple family, they have purchases made under my Apple ID because we used to have all the quote-unquote family purchases were made under my Apple ID in the days before there was the concept of an Apple family. so during the setup it will ask you uh please sign in with this apple id to unlock the applications it knows that there are apps on there that were purchased through my apple id and so i have to log into my apple id on her phone i enter in my information and it says we sent a code to your trusted device and you know the thing that comes up that shows a little map that says like there's login from this place on the map but do you want to allow it or whatever and i say this is this is showing up on my phone right now or that's my trusted device is my actual phone so i'm logging in my daughter's phone it sent the code to my phone i hit allow on the little map thing and then it pops up the thing with the six digits that it wants you to type in on my daughter's phone and that six digit thing disappears instantly oh cool and it stays on screen long enough oh i've seen this yeah it stays on screen long enough that you're like i did see the six numbers i can probably memorize them in the time they come up and so you do send code again all right ready and here's the map i'm gonna hit the allow button allow memorize memories oh no i got five of them it's like this bug has been in apple's platforms for i don't know five years six years it's so maddening because if it didn't work at all you'd be like oh i'll find some other things there's other things like to try another way send me an sms blah blah like you can eventually get through it but it almost works and it and it stays on screen just long enough to make you think you can do it and this is my message to me for next year don't try to memorize the six numbers just just immediately do choose another way send an sms type in a phone number blah blah blah yeah i'm not inexperienced at setting up iphones i've set up a lot of iphones and still still this is my experience and i had just set up my wife's phone like two weeks ago and still i can't get there the good thing is i will say both of their phone numbers transferred successfully because it was an iphone day yay and also i deleted i deleted their uh uh like one global uh e-sim you know like i knew that those were gonna screw it up so i remembered that part i deleted off any weird you know foreign country e-sims and then because it was an iphone day i was like it's gonna happen it's literally the first time i've ever seen this happen on an iphone was the number transferred correctly on two phones so victory for me i've never or i'm sure i've had an issue in the past i'm sure but it's been years since i've had an issue doing the phone number transfer so i don't know what makes your account so special that you get to be the lucky it's not the account i think verizon servers just suck like because everyone has at &t has iphone day as well right but whatever their servers are in this area that answer these api calls for like whatever you know transfer the number from here to there they just give up the ghost and i was already because i remembered from our last episode i was very like this this transfer fails i remember i can supposedly i can go to the website and do this myself without calling them so i'm going to try that next but i didn't have to because they just it actually worked the way it's supposed to the numbers just transferred one of these days one of us and maybe it'll be me we should just try and iCloud restore.

1:48:27I know it used to be. Marco doesn't. I do it every time. Oh, okay. There you go. And it remembers like Wi-Fi passwords and stuff? Yeah. Anything in iCloud keychain. Anything except your Slack login, basically. From that follow-up we had from the Apple camera person, I think he still said the device-to-device and finder backup are still higher fidelity than iCloud, but he didn't specify about what. But most of the stuff is in iCloud backup at this point. Yeah. I mean, maybe we should just do that and maybe it would be easier. I don't know. I should try it at some point, but I'll forget this by the time next year rolls around.

1:49:01Well, I mean, just don't do it when you're away from home on a trip in a car. All right, all right, all right. You have a long way to go before you're optimizing at that level.