669: Ternus, Take the Wheel

30:43The incident was resolved at 9.12, or about 25 minutes total impact, when all services were fully restored. A subset of customers were impacted, accounting for approximately 20 % of all HTTP traffic served by Cloudflare. The issue was triggered by changes being made to our body parsing logic while attempting to detect and mitigate an industry-wide vulnerability disclosed this week in React server components. Yeah. As I noted last week, my, you know, wrongheaded notion that I said like, oh, CloudFlare. Yeah, I always meant to move the CloudFlare and they just had an outage, right? So they probably won't have another one soon.

31:13That's not how it just works. I was hoping this one would be caused by them trying to mitigate the problems of the first outage. It just turns out it was caused by something else. But they did mention some of the changes they were making for the other outage. Yeah. Anyway, bad luck. But this one didn't affect every site. In fact, my site stayed up the entire time. So lucky me. But it was funny that I talked about. talked about moving to Cloudflare right after they had a big outage and they immediately had another one. All right. With regard to the dingus and saying one's name, Jonathan Golbranson writes, regarding whether Siri answers in voice, text, both, et cetera, this is configurable in settings and then Apple intelligence in Siri.

31:49And there is a knowledge-based article that we will link and additionally an image of this. And it says in Siri responses, spoken responses is the header. And the three options are prefer silent responses, automatic, or prefer spoken responses. And the footer reads, Siri will always speak responses in certain circumstances, like when you appear to be driving or using headphones with the screen off. Yeah, so I did figure that out with the screen off thing. I don't know if automatic is the default, but that's what mine was set to. And honestly, I left it on automatic. It's good to know if I ever want to demand that it say my name out loud, I can switch it to prefer spoken responses.

32:20But I guess automatic normally works fine, except for that one time when I really, really needed it to speak to me and it wouldn't. Yep. Orin Aydin writes,

32:57to a page on the screen and say this and it knows what it is. It's a miracle. That is a miracle. I would never have thought to try that because I would think it was one of those things they hadn't added to Siri yet. Right? Sad. Well, Siri's been able to do things, like when you say this in the past, you could say things like, remind me about this tomorrow at 1. And what it would do is whatever the current NS user activity was. So you could actually, I don't think it ever worked well in third-party apps. I never actually tried it much, but But if there was like a web page that you wanted to be reminded of, you could say, remind me of this tomorrow.

33:29If there's a phone call and it would actually create a reminder that would link to that thing. It's still that still does work. But I don't know how that will change in the era of Apple intelligence, which is supposed to be a lot more aware of stuff like that. Then we had a couple of people, a handful of people write in about a little bit of an oops. That was kind of our fault. Sean Santry writes, I was listening to ATP episode 668 via CarPlay. And when you said, Dingus, say my name, my Dingus answered. Then, since the podcast had briefly paused, Overcast helped me rewound exactly to the point where you said, Dingus, say my name.

34:02Lather, rinse, repeat. Reed Sorensen writes, thanks to the handy smart resume feature in Overcast, the Siri discussion in episode 668, threw my phone into a five-second time loop of Dingus, say my name, while I was driving in conditions too snowy to hit the skip button. Hey, Siri, buy Overcast Premium. Confirm, confirm. Lots of people wrote in with this. As I said on the header here, it's kind of a team effort. Me saying it and Marco making an app that will rewind just long enough to make it say that over and over again. And I was like the person who, speaking of snow, Casey in Richmond, who couldn't fix the situation because they were driving in the snow and they had to keep their hands on the wheel.

34:35Good job. It's more important to keep your hands on the wheel. Just, you know, eventually we'll get through this. But yeah, it wasn't just like one person this happened to. We had a bad coincidence of timing and speech that caused a lot of people to go into a loop with Overcast. That made me, every time I saw it, I felt bad, but I also, every single one of them made me giggle. All right, we have a update from friend of the show, underscore David Smith. We were talking last episode about Alan's departure, Alan Dye's departure and the reaction to the iOS 26, or all the 26 OSs. And John, you had made some passing reference, I think, to Underscore's post about the slower than expected rollout.

35:10So building on that, Dave, in the 20th of November, wrote last year, around a week before Thanksgiving, was when Apple hit the Go Wide to Everyone button for iOS 18 updates, resulting in a rapid uptick in adoption over the following weeks. And we'll include a link to this with the picture in the show notes. This year, we didn't get the big jump in iOS adoption right before Thanksgiving. And again, that's in David's tweet. And then on the 8th of December, Dave writes, Aha! Someone at Apple hit the Update Everyone button over the weekend. So now I'm seeing the more rapid uptick in adoption of iOS 26 that I've been hoping for.

35:43We'll probably hit the majority mark in the next couple of days. yeah we got that feedback after we published the episode i i when we recorded it i said uh the underscore hadn't seen the uptick but as soon as we published it people were like saying i'm i'm seeing the ios 26 getting pushed more aggressively and sure enough underscore is like yep it's happening the line is bending so yeah i don't know why they waited longer this year maybe because the 26.0 was buggier or whatever but uh you know or or caution about people being cranky about the but it seems like it's happening so uh i guess uh over the christmas holidays or the end of year holidays uh ask your relatives what they think of ios 26 and did they enjoy getting it pushed onto their phone fun fact it's because we brought it up that's why they flipped the button it's they heard atp and said oh we forgot and so uh that's why that's why the switch got flipped you're welcome everyone i think there was something up with i mean obviously we all know like 26.0 had a lot of bugs.

36:38I had an Overcast update that I shipped that would crash on one or two of the early betas of 26.1 or two. I forget which point really. I think 0.1 because 0.1 is out. Yeah. So some of the early betas of 26.1, it would crash because they had added an API that I was calling in the shipping version. But the first two betas didn't have that API. Anyway, what I learned from feedback emails about that and from digging in with certain people, trying to figure out why it was crashing for them is that it sounded like their company that manages OS releases and their IT department that approves OS releases for their phones, their company had mandated one of those early beta versions of 26.1.

37:23Now, I also heard the same story from at least five or six different people about like, oh, their company approved version was this 26.1 beta, and that's why they were on it. So it seems like some big company or some, you know, standards and practices followed by some group of companies actually had their employees install 26.1 beta and like lock them on that until I guess, you know, a better version could be approved or whatever. So that I think is really interesting that like maybe, you know, rumor out there of 26.0 was so bad that they forced their users onto this beta and then just haven't updated it yet.

38:00I doubt it was a rumor. It's probably because it didn't work with some part of their intranet or whatever, and they basically couldn't use 26.0, so they had to stop people from using 26.0. I mean, they could have just stopped them from using any of the 26 OSs, but maybe it was too late in people who had upgraded, so they forced everyone to 26.1 beta to basically stop the bleeding of whatever problem they had with 26.0, but yeah, not an ideal situation. Well, it could have even just been as simple as they're buying new iPhones, they come with 26.0, they got to - Yeah, yeah, they can't. They have no choice.

38:29They can't downgrade them. But 26.0 like doesn't work with their, you know, corporate VPN or some other has some other bug that they're like, we can't let people run this. We have to mandate they use 26.1 beta. And, you know, guess what? Betas are beta. Although, but apparently still may be better than 26.0. It was. Although, can I can I give a little just a tiny little complaint here? I know we're on a roll. I just want to just a really quick complaint. Tethering is still totally broken on my iPhone 17, bro. it's to the point where like i actually i'm trying to turn it off and disable it because i'm now just carrying around a standalone 5g hotspot and sometimes my laptop will attach a tethering on the phone without me realizing it instead of joining the hotspots wi-fi network and i will you know be on the train and stuff will just slow down and stop working oh that's weird are we in a bad reception area oh no i see the little chain link icon oh i'm on tethering why does it keep going to tethering so i spent all of you know the last few years trying to get my laptop to please automatically connect to tethering whenever you can.

39:27Now, if you get it to stop, please stop automatically getting to tethering because it's so bad. It's completely broken. I have no idea what's up. If it's my phone, if it's AT &T, I've never had this problem with any other phone. And I've been on the same AT &T setup for a very long time. But tethering is completely broken for me. And not in a way that I could ask for support because, yeah, it'll work for a while. so like it's not like it's not working at all it it works for a bit and then eventually just connections start failing and timing out and it nothing happens and i don't know what to do about this i've never had an iphone that had this problem and i did some quick research um the other day and i found like some reddit threads about it so like i think it might be other people as well but it didn't seem like a massively widespread thing so if anybody knows what the heck am I supposed to do about this?

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42:27All right, so Intel might be making chips for Apple. We talked about this a little bit, but it's more than what we initially thought. And also we have some feedback about it. Tambourine Man writes, One thing I didn't think you guys emphasized enough on the Intel-made M-series topic is that Intel could still be a potential competitor. Apple will be providing them with state-of-the-art chip schematics, which is stopping Intel from learning a few tricks and implementing them in their x86 offerings. That's something no TSMC customer has to worry about, and it seems like a major competitive advantage that TSMC has.

42:59Presumably Intel, in entering the foundry business, cleanly separates the foundry business from their own chip designs. but it is a thing that you should worry about and also like obviously you know you can you can learn a lot about your competitors trips without them giving you the designs just by chopping the top off of them and examining them and stuff but yes the schematics probably uh help as well um that's i i think a lot of companies do walk that line i mean apple itself you know most how well it does like apple has its own apps and yet it also accepts third-party apps now granted it doesn't get the source code to them but it is an advantage to know what third parties are doing because you can see their apps in development or whatever and lots of other companies do this microsoft has their own first party games as do other console developers and stuff and yet they also solicit third party games so i don't think this is an impossible thing for intel to deal with but it is a much cleaner relationship with tsmc doesn't have any chips of its own and you don't have to worry about them making them at least right now didn't samsung manufacture apple's chips for a little while yeah for a long time next item yeah there you go uh david beck writes apple split the manufacturing for the a8 between samsung and tsmc before switching entirely to tsmc oh there's a graph i meant to put in here maybe i'll put it in next week or whatever it was showing the um the number of manufacturers for a particular uh transistor process node or whatever starting way back in the day of like you know uh i don't know it's like 90 nanometers and you know when they were much larger than now and the number of companies who manufacture the different process node sizes goes down dramatically from like 15 to 20 and we're currently at like two maybe three and that is tsmc samsung and then on the graph intel was in gray like it was grayed out it's like well technically they might kind of sort of be doing it but uh yeah so samsung is is one of the last fabs standing uh still a little bit behind tsmc and intel is maybe in the race but there used to be so many more um even though there was a big lead the other ones would eventually get on board and you know they weren't on at all at the same time but the graph is just showing who has ever made a 90 nanometer chip and had a huge list who has ever made a three nanometer chip way smaller list gafrito marocchi writes didn't apple's chip boss talk about packaging being the thing to watch out for um and that is something we talked about in the past uh we talked about it in episode 562 and this was based on johnny seruji and an interview that he had and john has been kind enough to find a timestamp link for the video on YouTube.

45:31So thank you, John. So why are we talking about packaging in the first place? Because on November 18th, and Alexander Kay in TechPowerUp writes, Apple Broadcom and Qualcomm are considering Intel Foundry for its advanced packaging technologies, which could allow Intel to significantly increase its foundry revenue without manufacturing the actual silicon. Job listings from Apple Broadcom and Qualcomm highlight Intel's Embedded Multi-Die Interconnect Bridge, or EMIB, as a key requirement for packaging engineer positions. Qualcomm's CEO recently stated that Intel is not an option today. He noted that Intel's current foundry node, likely 18A, is not suitable for their mobile chips.

46:09The main focus of the 18A node is not on mobile low-power SOCs, but rather on mid-range and high-power solutions. However, the 18A node is seemingly not what is attracting customers like Qualcomm. It is the packaging that Intel offers. Last year, Broadcom tested the 18A node, but expressed disappointment. However, now Intel's advanced packaging is emerging as a promising alternative to TSMC's COWOS and other packaging types. Intel's Foundry advanced packaging portfolio enables designers to utilize 2D, 2.5D, and 3D building blocks to optimize cost power and bandwidth. EMIB is a substrate embedded silicon bridge that offers localized high-density die-to-die routing without the cost and area drawbacks of a full-size silicon interposer.

46:49So this is an interesting twist on the rumor of like, oh, Intel is going to make chips. So this is a November story. And like, oh, actually, people are interested in Intel, not because of 18A, which some customers or at least two customers here are saying, eh, we didn't like it. It's not great. 18A is not what we need for mobile chips or for low power chips. But they have their own packaging things sort of like, you know, I know we've talked about these weird abbreviations that TSMC has like C-O-W-O-S and all the other ones, basically a way of taking a bunch of smaller dies and putting them together in an efficient manner.

47:18it's easier to make a bunch of small dies because you have a higher chance of a small die coming out with no defects than a bigger one right so if you can make a bunch of small ones and connect them amd has been doing that with its chiplets or whatever and the soic is the thing that tsmc is supposedly using for the m5 pro and m5 max we'll see when those are released early next year uh intel has its emib thing which is a way of stacking a bunch of dies together so maybe Apple's going to fab the silicon for the M6 or M7 at TSMC and then give those little dies to Intel for it to package with the EMI bay thing and maybe that's the source of the rumor saying, oh, Intel's going to be fabbing the M-series chips for Apple.

47:57Maybe they're not going to be fabbing them. Maybe they're going to be packaging them. Lots of rumors swirling around this, but I can you know, I'm not sure which way this will go, but like, having both Qualcomm and Broadcom say, 18A fast but not good for low power doesn't make me think oh that means that you know is apple going to make a the base m series chip on a on a process that's not good for low power or are they just not interested in 18a it's really going to be 14a if apple if intel ever even builds those things so keep an eye on that packaging as surgery says is the place of it it's interesting i mean the real packaging thing is like the soic is a packaging innovation that i'm assuming apple will tout when the new m series chips comes out we'll see if they tout that but everybody's trying to do something with packaging and this is Intel's take on it.

48:43All right. And then finally, reading from Mac Rumors from a few days back and Joe Rosignol over at Mac Rumors, in a research note with the investment firm GF Securities this week obtained by Mac Rumors, analyst Jeff Poo said he and his colleagues now expect Intel to reach a supply deal with Apple for at least some non-pro iPhone chips starting in 2028. The non-pro iPhone chips would be manufactured with Intel's future 14a process according to poo the research note did not provide any other details about these potential potential plans but based on the standard time frame intel could start supplying apple with the a22 chip for devices like the iphone 20 and the iphone 20 e and around three years from now more rumors not for mac chips now for phone chips which are even smaller and even lower power but this is about 14a and not 18a so i guess all these rumors only take place at apple i keep saying apple if Intel actually builds and ramps up 14A and 18A to actually be able to manufacture chips.

49:36But I would keep an eye on this. It's pretty interesting that Apple is supposedly in talks for not just Mac stuff, which are way lower volume than the phone. But like, I guess it's not the pro chips, not the flagship flagship, but even the non-pro phones, they sell a lot of those. So to be talking to Intel about that is something. All right. And finally, for follow up today, we had a fascinating article, actually a couple of articles from our good friend, John Gruber. One of them is entitled Bad Die Job, which is very good. I'm going to read a fair bit of it because a lot of it is pertinent. But it is worth if you are not driving or whatever, it is worth having a read of this entire article.

50:17It's a little bit on the longer side for Gruber stuff, but it is very, very good and absolutely fascinating. yeah and the reason i'm reading that put this long passages in here is like you just summarize it like gruber not a fan of alan die like that would be the quick summary why do we need to have all this stuff i thought it was notable and again casey we'll read some excerpts here so you get a feel for it so you don't have to read the whole thing exactly how much gruber trashes alan die like he's he's not above like calling it like he sees it or whatever and being blunt but he spent a long time saying a lot of terrible things about Alan Dye.

50:50We'll talk about it when you finish reading things, but just, I mean, I think in some places maybe he's a little bit unfair, but either way, this is sort of the most, I don't know, the most angry, the most vitriol I've seen from Gruber in a long time. Right. So again, this isn't the whole article, but it gives you the general gist. Everyone I've spoken to at Apple is happy, if not downright giddy, at the news that Stephen LeMay is replacing Dye. LeMay is well-liked personally and deeply respected talent-wise. Said one source in a position to know the choices, quote, I don't think there was a better choice than LeMay, quote.

51:23The sentiment within the ranks at Apple is that today's news is almost too good to be true. People had given up hope that Dye would ever get squeezed out, and no one expected that he'd just up and leave on his own. If you care about design, there's nowhere to go but down after leaving Apple. What people overlooked is the obvious. Alan Dye doesn't actually care about design. Shots fired. I see the construction there in the snark. I'm sure he does care about design. He's just bad at it. Or maybe the kind of design that he is better at is not software UI design. Maybe like laying out ads in magazines.

51:56I mean, look, he rose to a high level at Apple when he was doing the print and packaging and marketing. He rose to a high level for a reason. He probably is a good designer in certain ways. And maybe he's a good designer in different types of design. Maybe he's a good designer when working in different teams or with different people around him or above him, maybe. But, you know, he got to a point in Apple where he was not a good designer. And I don't necessarily blame him personally for that. I blame Apple for putting him in that position that he shouldn't have had. So continuing with Gruber, the oddest thing about Alan Dye's stint leading software design is that there are effectively zero design critics who've been on his side.

52:37The debate regarding Apple's software design over the last decade isn't between those on Dye's side and those against. It's only a matter of debating how bad it's been and how far it's fallen from its previous remarkable heights. It's rather extraordinary in today's hyper-partisan world that there's nearly universal agreement amongst actual practitioners of user interface design that Alan Dye is a fraud who led the company deeply astray. I'm sorry, I'm trying to get through this with a straight face. It was a big problem inside the company, too. I'm aware of dozens of designers who've left Apple out of frustration over the company's direction.

53:05From the stories I'm aware of, the theme is identical. These designers are driven to do great work, and under Alan Dye, doing great work was no longer the guiding principle at Apple. Designers chose to work at Apple to do the best work in the industry. That has stopped being true under Alan Dye. The most talented designers I know are the harshest critics of Dye's body of work and the direction in which it's been heading. Yeah, this also echoes what we've heard elsewhere. And we've seen some people like Louis Mantia, a great designer, he's been blogging about it, but there's also people who don't want to speak out publicly because it's bad for career moves for a lot of people.

53:39But we've heard from a lot of people that this is the case, that it seemed during the Dai era at Apple, which did not seem like it was going to end anytime soon, it seemed like there was not a place there anymore for people who cared about user interface design the way that we all knew Apple 4 years ago. Why did we all come to the Mac? Why do we all love these products so much? And why do we stick around through some of the more difficult times? Let's be honest. It doesn't all have roses. And it's because of details and priorities and values that Alan Dye's design in user interface just didn't really practice or outright had disregard for or outright despised, it seemed.

54:27And this is why, yeah, Gruber is being pretty harsh here. What got under Gruber's skin probably is all the years of Alan Dye's software design organization doing things that were pretty antithetical to the reason why we all love this platform, these platforms. Especially the Mac. There's very few people besides John Syracuse maybe who love the Mac as much as John Gruber. and you know to alan dye's design style on the mac was really rough and and outright dismissive and and kind of you know just going through with a wrecking ball and not understanding any of it and not caring and just plowing through so yeah gruber got fired up and yeah some of this i think some of this is a little a little harsh but i was reading it with you know with popcorn honestly um I'm not incredibly proud of that, but I just, I loved, I love this.

55:27It felt like an amazing expression of a lot of the frustration that I've been feeling for years. So I was very happy to see all of this. Oh, goodness. All right. So continuing with the other post, Alan Dye was in Tim Cook's blind spot. I'd have thrown open AI in that list of companies where it would have been surprising, but not shocking for Dye to leave Apple for. But that simply wasn't possible given Johnny Ives' relationship with Sam Altman, Love Frum's collaboration with OpenAI with the IO Project, and Ives' utter disdain for Dye's talent, leadership, and personality. Citation needed, but woof.

56:02Yeah, I believe this is the first we are hearing about this. I believe I'd never heard before that, you know, what Gruber is saying that I guess he's heard that Johnny Ive really does not like Alan Dye or his work, which is surprising because it seems from what we were I think from what we were told or what was reported, it seems like Johnny Ive is the person who put Dye in that role. uh maybe that's not true or maybe i've used to like him and you know didn't like where he went with the job who knows uh but that's that's interesting news and that would be um you know certainly the first time i've seen it yeah so like i said the reason i think this post is notable is first gruber does have connections to people inside apple um so i'm not he tends not to cite his sources or do the people said like they do in bloomberg and other things or whatever but suffice it to say that he does know people at apple people at apple do talk to him so i take seriously when he's stating as fact that like everybody he's heard from has said they didn't like die and absolutely right and it's not just like the five people like he talks to on his podcast but like i'm sure he's getting sources there like no defenders are coming from apple there and the johnny ive thing is another example of just dropping that in there as if it's a fact with no sourcing but presumably he's not basing that he's not pulling that out of thin air that's coming from somewhere and i can imagine i you know i was kind of having his foot out the door for a while at apple and trying to leave and tim was making him stay and at a certain point you don't really get to pick who succeeds you you're on your way out the door you can give your opinion but the fact is you're leaving and so once he's gone maybe he didn't want died to be a successor but once you leave the company you don't get to have a your opinion doesn't matter anymore you're out you're out of there they get to pick who replaces you so maybe he's always been mad about that um the other reason i think this is interesting is because i felt like i've been sort of internally flipping out as with a couple other selected people who i follow on mastodon about how about the poor choices in the 26 os it's not that they're terrible as i've always said in the show like they're you they're fine you'll get through it it's not the worst thing in the world it could have gone much worse right but the things that are bad about them are so like they're like you know the canary in the coal mine so such glaring mistakes for no good reason that are indefensible that yeah they don't ruin the whole s it doesn't make it super terrible but like if you if you the more you know about uh user interface design the more you say someone who have could have done that someone who made this decision here no it doesn't ruin the os but it shows that they have no idea what they're doing and i've been just flipping out about it and everyone else i've seen including gruber has been like oh the 26 of us are out there here they're not that bad it's or whatever and i'm like maybe i'm the only one maybe it's just me and those two other people i follow mastodon who just cannot believe what they've done with these os's again not because it's so hard terrible it makes them unusable but just because like these mistakes are indicative of just a complete lack of understanding of what could what good user interface design is and they're just lucky that they've been made in areas that doesn't really impact the usability as much as it you know as it could like and i i wondered why i wouldn't see more stuff from gruber saying i can't believe that they made these mistakes but i guess he was saving it all up because i mean some of the stuff we cut out here is like his opinion of it you know in particular tahoe and that design is just as harsh as mine and the other people he just hasn't been saying it and if you're thinking like what is this alan die everyone all of a sudden hates him but i never heard anything about him well i'm gonna say if you've listened to atp over the last like several years you've heard the name alan die a lot usually marco saying he hates his guts and me saying well we don't know if alan die is responsible for this that mean i don't because look i don't i don't know the guy personally i don't like his work i know but you're just using you were using it as a placeholder of like uh alan dyer's design or whatever and i was like well it's apple's design how much is alan dyer responsible for but now that he's left people are coming out of the woodwork and saying yeah it was totally him like it makes sense he was in charge of it but like it's you know again it's difficult to know what's going on inside the company but like i feel like this is people who would now feel free to speak essentially that everyone sort of had this opinion and maybe marco was free with his opinion in the past several years uh but other people were more kind of like saying oh you know maybe and you know it's just we don't know what goes inside apple i know alan dyer's in charge so and so forth but for me it was when he was you know at wdc introducing uh liquid glass stuff it's like well he's the face of he's the public face of it now so he's fair game and shortly after he just leaves the company and then everybody comes out of the work and is like no i totally hated that guy and everything he did it was like you know it's it's just shocking to me like granted this is a tiny little inside baseball world and the regular public uh thus far has not had a very strong reaction but as as gruber point on the articles i've said in the past the more you know about this the more you know about what makes good user interface design the more concerning the recent changes have been not because they have destroyed the products but because they reveal the decision making to be flawed in a way that is embarrassing for a company with the history reputation of Apple.

1:01:08And so hopefully that will change.

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1:03:08And speaking of departures, moving out of follow-up and into topics, Apple has announced more executive transitions. Tis the season. Tis the season to be lonely. Apple today on December 12th announced that Jennifer Newstead will become Apple's general counsel on March 1, 2026, following a transition of duties from Kate Adams, who has served as Apple's general counsel since 2017. She will join Apple as senior vice president in January, reporting to CEO Tim Cook. In addition, Lisa Jackson, vice president for environment policy and social initiatives, will retire in late January, 2026. The government affairs organization will transition to Adams, who will oversee the team until her retirement late next year, after which will be led by Newstead.

1:03:49Newstead's title will become senior vice president, general counsel in government affairs, reflecting the combining of the two organizations. The Environment and Social Initiatives teams will report to Apple Chief Operating Officer Sabi Khan. Newstead was most recently the Chief Legal Officer of Meta, whoops, and previously served as Legal Advisor of the U.S. Department of State, where she led the legal team responsible for advising the Secretary of State on legal issues affecting the conduct of U.S. foreign relations. She held a range of other positions in government earlier in her career as well, including as General Counsel of the White House Office of Management and Budget as a principal deputy assistant attorney general in the Office of Legal Policy at the Department of Justice, as associate White House counsel, and a law clerk to somebody.

1:04:29She also spent a dozen years at some law firm where she advised global corporations on a wide variety of issues. She got her undergraduate at Harvard and her law degree at Yale, so not a dummy. Gurman writes, Jennifer Newstead helped oversee Meta's successful antitrust battle with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission, experience that's likely to prove useful in Apple's own legal fight with the Justice Department over alleged anti-competitive practices. Anonymous writes, Apple's corporate values were supposedly the environment and privacy. Today, Apple eliminated the VP of Environment Position and hired as SVP someone who not only worked at Facebook, but also helped write the U.S.

1:05:06Patriot Act, which is one of the most egregious violations of privacy among other civil rights in U.S. history. Cool, cool, cool, cool. So this change here, all right? So more people leaving. Lisa Jackson, you've seen her in videos increasingly as her career went on at Apple. She was on the roof. Was she on the roof of the building? I forget. Anyway, she's her face has been in keynotes more and more as her career has gone on. And she's the the environment person leading that whole initiative. She is retiring, not leaving for another company. And she's having someone else take over her position.

1:05:35But then that person is going to retire. And then all that environmental stuff is getting sort of wrapped up and split up. And then the general counsel, General Newstead, is taking over from the as the new general counsel in this new combined position, blah, blah, blah. jennifer newstead is making a lot of people angry because she worked on the patriot act which are people don't follow u.s politics is uh some panic legislation that our legislature passed uh when everyone was scared of terrorists to say the government should be allowed to look at all your crap terrorists it's either terrorists are like children are in danger anyway incredibly invaded why it's relevant to apple is it says it's a privacy type thing like the patriot act was it's named it's it's right out of a movie the patriot act eagle screech you know it's got a name that who can who can be against the patriot act where the government gets to you know pry into all your information and crap it was it was the perfect george w bush era law name yeah um and so anyway she was part of that she's worked for the trump administration she worked for meta for a long time she defended meta in the uh ftc case successfully defended antitrust against the ftc so people like do we want to be why is apple hiring someone for meta which apple hates who worked for uh these republican administrations who worked on legislature that was privacy invasive that apple would would not like you know because apple is usually fighting the government when they ask for information um and and lisa jackson everybody loved lisa jackson and she's doing environment stuff and now they're like essentially eliminated that position now they don't have an environment person it's just all going to be like put those responsibilities pushed elsewhere and we'll talk about more about that in overtime my take on this is like general counselor like the big lawyer at a hojillion dollar company like apple i should just say trillion it's a big enough number and it's actually real correct it's a real thing multi-trillion dollar company like apple um i do think that her relevant experience defending giant companies against government action and succeeding overrides any of apple's concerns about her having worked for meta or republican administrations or worked on the patriot act because if you're looking for the general counsel the big lawyer at your company to provide um moral clarity that's you're probably looking in the wrong place people hire lawyers because they have experienced knowledge and win cases you kind of want it's like everyone everyone hates everyone else's lawyer but everyone's their lawyer to be the biggest you know jerk in the entire world because you know that's and i that doesn't and that that's true of people but it's it's like doubly true of corporations like do you know the issues involved can you win these cases and apple has plenty of cases where governments are trying to apply regulations on them and fining them and suing them like for what you for however much you might hate meta or whatever apple i mean maybe it's just we talk about them so much in the show like every government in the world is on their case for a lot of legitimate reasons and maybe some less ones or whatever uh so i kind of think yeah if if there's one person you're gonna hire in your company where you don't really care like what kind of other bad things they worked for i mean you can say facebook is you know i know i get she worked for like the first trump administration but not the second i think i don't know she worked for george w bush it's on the patriot like i get why people are mad we would prefer a lawyer who is a wonderful person who you know helps small children and the elderly and also wins cases against the government when they sue big uh big companies but i think this is just the nature of the beast that uh for for any for employees that you're hiring this particular role the biggest baddest lawyer in your company it would it seems like you would have to sort of look aside of the fact of the fact they worked at meta versus for example let me hire uh you know a new head designer and let me get it from one of gruber's favorite punching bags amazon which i think in his article he described as a company that has no interest in design whatsoever like if apple brought in a new head of design and brought and pulled them from amazon we'd be saying why are you pulling a new designer from there but apple pulling a new general counsel from meta that's my take yeah i mean i don't really have strong feelings about it i don't have strong feelings about the lawyer rejiggering i have somewhat strong feelings about lisa jackson retiring i don't like that we're just kind of letting that role fizzle i get it i get it yeah maybe it's like that because there's no one else who can do what she's done like that's such a weird position i think she was so uniquely suited for it i don't know i mean it is it is weird and concerning though and again we'll talk about this more in overtime but like uh because we're gonna talk about apple and the environment but that's another thing people are upset about yeah because wasn't the position created for her like wasn't she the first person yes exactly it was basically to get her to work at apple you're going to be this new thing and now when she's leaving the position is going with her so we'll see how that turns out yeah i mean you know people are trying to ascribe it to in Trump era America where Apple's trying to get rid of environmental stuff.

1:10:51I don't think this says that. And you know, I'd be the first person to throw Tim Cook under the bus for that kind of thing. But I don't think this means that. But we'll see. What I suspect is that she wanted to retire for whatever her reasons were. You can guess. There's plenty of reasons why somebody who works for, you know, works on environmental issues in a prominent role in America right now might say, you know what, enough is enough and just retire. But I think there's enough of environmental care built into Apple that, like, I'm not that worried about this indicating anything either way.

1:11:35Yeah. So, all right, that's not the only news. On December 6th, reading from Mark Gurman, Johnny Shruji, the senior vice president of hardware technologies and one of Apple's most respected executives, recently told Tim Cook that he is seriously considering leaving in the near future, according to people with knowledge of the matter. Shruji, the architect of Apple's prized in-house chips effort, has informed colleagues that he intends to join another company if he ultimately departs. Cook has been working aggressively to retain him, an effort that included a substantial pay package and the potential of more responsibility down the road.

1:12:07One scenario floated internally by some executives involves elevating him into the role of chief technology officer. but that change would likely require john turnus to be promoted ceo a step the company may not be ready to take and some people within apple have said that seruji would prefer not to work under a different ceo even with an expanded title if seruji does depart the company would likely tap one of his two top lieutenants to replace him then two days later on december 8th uh a new article apple chip chief tell staff he's not leaving anytime soon johnny seruji told staff on monday that he'll stay at the iphone maker for now quote i know you've been reading all kinds of rumors and speculations about my future at Apple and I feel that you need to hear from me directly he said in a memo to his division I love my team and I love my job at Apple and I don't plan on leaving anytime soon that's also Gerber by the way so Gerber not Gerber Gurman Gurman on December 6th says oh Suruji might be leaving and then on December 8th Gurman also then follows up says never mind uh you know Suruji sent this memo and said that he's not leaving so good on Gurman for correcting himself quickly although again I'm not necessarily sure this is a correction because I don't think these stories are contradictory when you get information like this it may be about the past it may be that suruji did express a potential desire lead and cook did work aggressively to retain him and succeeded in retaining him and then when the story breaks this is all in the past and suruji writes a memo and says i'm not going anywhere i'm staying here i love you all everything's great because it is it's true because tim cook retained him by giving you know convincing him to stay tim cook reportedly convinced johnny i have to stay way longer than we always she did and so maybe that's the thing that he's good at and maybe that's the thing that happened um i i what i've heard is that everyone's saying oh german was the first person to break this johnny sergi might be leaving story and i i seem to recall seeing it multiple times probably also from german so this may have been a thing that was sort of you know and uh i think maybe we talked about it on the show and i was like oh if he's gonna oh no it was in a slack channel somewhere i'm sorry anyway um my online world is uh mixed together uh very much these days um the idea was like oh suruji might be leaving uh but if he left would he really go to another company or wouldn't he just retire because again all these people at a high level at apple who've been there for years they're all fabulously wealthy because the salaries are high at that level and they have apple stock and apple stock has been going up so all these people can retire easily and suruji is of the age you're like oh you probably want to retire right you got your money enjoy you know you don't have to wait until you're like super duper old to retire why would he go work at another company um and as a gruber pointed out in the recent episode of dithering where would he go that's more exciting in terms of chip design than apple because apple is one of the leaders in the kind of chip design that he's doing unless he wants to do a different kind of chip design that apple doesn't do um and everyone keeps saying you know this is he's talk about someone who's successful part of the apple part of the company uh part of apple that's been doing really well is the chip design and he's the head of that so uh he's been knocking it out of the park why would he you know is he leaving at top where would he go where he thinks he's going to top himself and to that i would say yeah apple's chip design has absolutely been knocking out of the park uh i think ruba said no one would have anything bad about to say about his work and i was like well there is one area where where the johnny chiruchi regime has failed to produce oh no and it was a thing that they were trying to do when they switched from intel to apple silicon they had plans to replace all the intel chips with even better ones made with apple silicon and they did that for every chip except for the ones in the mac pro and they had planned it there was rumors there was designs there was diagrams they were going to do it and they've just never ever ever done it nobody cares about that i get it i get nobody cares and yes johnny seruji is a champion of the world and he's done amazing things for the chips that actually matter to apple so he gets an A plus first place gold medal.

1:16:01I give it to him, but it is not true to say that there is nothing bad you can say about Johnny Cerugi's time at Apple. There is one tiny little thing that I personally can say. You are the only human that has anything. I mean, here's the thing. They plan to do it, right? It's not just like me on the outside wishing a thing. It's a thing that was on their roadmap and they just never did it. So it's not like they decided we're not going to do this. They wanted to do it. They tried to do it. They have not been able to do it. So in that way, it is one of those very, very minor sort of internal failures.

1:16:28kind of like making their own modem chips which they wanted to do for a long time and for a long time they failed to do and it took them they took them a while but they eventually did do it it's a thing they wanted to do i think apple still potentially wants to do something like this to make a higher power chip or whatever but like and you know again the rumors were that it's not anywhere on the roadmap until like the m7 or something which we were rapidly approaching because time passes um so that's that's that's why i think it's fair to put a tiny little ding on the on the otherwise sterling record to say this is a thing you were actually tasked with that the company wanted to do that it makes sense for you to want to do because you're transitioning from one set of ships to a new one and you want to have replacements that are better than all the ones you had before in all possible ways and this one little area that doesn't even matter i know it's an area where it failed but anyway i would have expected him to retire that like why would you go to another company where are you going to go what have you got left to prove um you could same thing could be said of Johnny Ive, but some people just want to keep working, right?

1:17:28And so, I mean, who knows if that rumor is true, but the rumor was he was going to leave Apple and go somewhere else. And I just can't imagine where he would have gone. But apparently, according to his intended to be leaked memo, he loves everything there. He's staying in Apple. He has no plans to leave. But of course, plans change every day. So we'll keep an eye out. All right. Going back to his December 6th, so the first post, the recent shifts are already reshaping Apple's power structure. More authority is now flowing to a quartet of executives. Ternus serves as chief at EQ, software head Craig Federighi, and new COO Sabi Khan.

1:18:04Apple's AI efforts have been redistributed across its leadership, with Federighi becoming the company's de facto AI chief. Ternus is also poised to take a starring role next year in the celebration of Apple's 50th anniversary, further raising his profile. And he's been given more responsibility over robotics and smart glasses, two areas seen as future growth drivers. Further reorganization is likely. Deirdre O 'Brien, head of retail and human resources, has been with Apple for more than 35 years while marketing chief Greg Joswiak has spent four decades at the company. Apple has elevated the key lieutenants under both executives preparing for their eventual retirements.

1:18:35Yeah, this is kind of the story this week. Continuing executive exodus and reshuffling at Apple, which I agree with what everyone else has said. I don't find this as a concerning thing. As Gruber said, many people are giddy about some of the departures. But it's like it's just an age-based turnover and it's it makes sense for them to sort of you know kind of all transition around the same time you know with tim cook being the big departure which will eventually happen you know whenever um people get old people want to retire people want to move on people have been in the company for decades it's a changing of the guard and i think it's all good like i i as as i've written about i think there needs to be turnover both at the top and everybody else underneath them i think it's healthy for that to happen it's been great to have the continuity of like the old school apple folks sort of keeping that culture alive but we've seen how that can fail uh in terms of maybe blind spots for newer technologies and not making the right moves on ai but also at how like those old school people who have been to the company for decades being unable to stop something like alan die ruining the user interface to all their products right so like what is the point of like oh it's great we have these people we have this continuity of leadership we have this leadership team that like this page hasn't changed in a real long time it's very stable these people have been with the company they really know the spirit of apple the spirit of apple doesn't do anybody any good unless it manifests in preventing the company from doing things that are clearly against the spirit of apple and in many many ways recently that has not been happening so that's when you say okay your spirit of apple uh you know sort of reason for you being in your job 40 years that no longer flies so probably you should retire because you're kind of retirement age and let someone else have a chance and let's let's see a changing of the guard let's see some apple turnover haha and it's happening i mean even when people like lisa jackson leave that everybody loved like you know again people move on get old retire you know good luck to them i'm happy to see a lot of turnover and you know as great as johnny seruji is it's you know if he left i don't think it would be the end of the world i think what's much more concerning are the those rumors that we talked about you know many months ago about apple's silicon team under him those people leaving to go work for other companies that's way more concerning than the head of of that thing because i think that organization is very functional and i think you know if he were ever to leave there are probably people under him who could take over his role and perhaps his biggest expertise was sort of like we're going to make all our own chips now uh get that effort rolling from zero you know from you know buying pa semi and like getting him to sort of take all those people and, you know, go to the Apple Silicon era.

1:21:15Keeping that machine running is easier than starting it up from zero. So I'm not, I wouldn't be as concerned if he left or retired or went somewhere else, but I have been concerned with sort of the brain drain from the rumored brain drain from under him. And the same thing with what Gruber talked about, which again, I'm assuming is sourced, even though he's not like pinpointing the sources or telling you how many people said this, of designers who left Apple to go elsewhere because they didn't like the direction Alan Dye was doing things. Like, we know designers left, like when Johnny Ive left, basically the whole team who was loyal to him left with him and went to work with him at Love From or working with him on the OpenAI stuff or whatever.

1:21:51And a lot of times you can look at that and say, those are just his friends. They wanted to go where he's going. It's fine. But here's Gruber saying another factor in that is they didn't want to stay at Apple with someone telling them, with someone leading them who doesn't know what they're doing and is telling them to do things that they disagree with. So that is way more concerning than the people at the top. So I think the people at the top need to rotate and hopefully new people at the top will be more proactive about preventing bad things from happening in the company. So if John Ternus becomes CEO, he can make a lot of decisions that could change stuff there.

1:22:24If John Ternus was CEO, would he have allowed Alan Dye to fester as long as he did or would he have done something differently? That's I'm I'm definitely optimistic about the turnover right now. Again, it can go bad. Things could be worse than they are now instead of better. But it's time for some new folks to have a shot at this. Yeah, I mean, anytime that you change leadership, a lot of stuff gets shaken up and you are rolling the dice. You know, we don't know, you know, pick whoever, whatever the theory is. Like, you know, it seems like there's a lot of a lot of smoke behind the Ternus fire here.

1:22:54So, like, we don't know what kind of CEO John Ternus would be. And we don't know what kind of challenges he would face during his tenure at Apple. you know just like you know tim cook like tim cook has had to deal with a lot of uh a lot of conditions and events and dynamics that he probably could not have predicted when he first got on the job and that steve jobs predicted yeah exactly like you know and like you know steve jobs when you know when basically recommending tim cook for the job he couldn't have known all the stuff that tim cook was going to face either and so you know you are you're rolling the dice with anybody um And we don't know how it's going to be.

1:23:30But I've said for a long time, like John, I've said that I'm ready for some new, some fresh blood in a lot of these high up ranks for lots of reasons. Not all of them are bad. Some of them are just generational turnover. Obviously, you know, I'm not a huge fan of Tim Cook by any means. There was that report or that part of the German report that Tim Cook has like an unexplained tremor in his hands and people have noticed. I wouldn't read too much into that if it's even true. I don't think the dexterity of his right hand is essential to his job at CEO. He's not a professional athlete. Yeah. So I wouldn't read too much into that.

1:24:07If he does have a health problem, I'm not going to take joy in that. But I do want Apple to have new leadership. I don't want it to be that way, but I want Apple to have new leadership. And I'm very much looking forward to what the next generation could do. because like there was a great segment on upgrade about this the last last two episodes of upgrade where you know especially jason was going in deep about like you know how when you are rising up the ranks if there's nowhere for you to go above a certain level you tend to often just leave to a different company or go you know go do something else because you you hit a ceiling and if the person above you is is not going to retire for a long time then you kind of have nowhere to go So there is a lot of that mid-level and upper-level talent that shuffles around or departs for a different company.

1:25:00And maybe that's what happened with Alan Dye. It just happened to benefit us. But like – And on that front though, it's not just like the person behind you is never going to leave because you'll never get their position. The other part of that is maybe the people above you are never going to promote you. like maybe this place is for you to be promoted too but the people above you are have got a vendetta against you or disagree with you fundamentally about something or whatever and you feel trapped in the company not because you need someone to leave so you can take their job up because they don't like you and won't promote you so you leave to go out like that's the real danger in brain drain companies is not that the super important people on your leadership page leave it's that the sort of mid-level and low-level people will leave for all the reasons that they leave and one of those reasons could be there's some bad manager that the the manager two or three levels above should have gotten rid of the company ages ago but hasn't like you know for example someone who has creating a toxic work environment and higher level executives run cover for them because they're part of the boys club you know what i mean like that's that causes hundreds of people many levels below to say maybe i should go look elsewhere uh and that leadership is not allowing that to happen so yes sometimes it's because you you hit the ceiling and you can't get a promoter name over.

1:26:12Sometimes it's because you can't even get promoted from level one to level two because you have a bad manager above you that you can't get rid of in the company. Yeah. And so what I'm looking forward to is the shuffling up because what tends to happen, one thing that Jason mentioned, I believe, on Upgrade this week, that when Tim Cook took over from Steve Jobs, the very first day he brought back Apple's charitable giving matching program. Steve Jobs just hated that kind of thing and would never allow it. Tim Cook had a list on day one of stuff to change. And it was it seemed like pretty good stuff.

1:26:46Every time somebody really high up turns over, you have a chance for someone to be elevated into that role who has one of those like to do lists that like for whatever reason, the previous leader just wouldn't do it or you couldn't convince them to do it. And, you know, it's the right idea. Sometimes it's not, but a lot of times it is. And so whenever there is that this kind of turnover, you know, you get rid of like personalities. or dynamics or politics that were blocking some good ideas from happening. So it tends to be positive. Now, there's also, you know, there's learning curves. There's mistakes that are made along the way.

1:27:21But typically, responsibly done turnover, when you have a good bench behind you, typically results in some pretty good stuff happening. There is a lot of smoke behind the fire now of this being, you know, near the end of the Tim Cook era. And when you have a CEO transition in particular, then that tends to cycle out a lot of the people around the CEO and right below the CEO. So anybody who does not get the job, who maybe wanted the job, they're very likely to retire maybe a little bit earlier than planned or quit or leave or whatever. anybody who doesn't get along with the new dynamic created might get forced all out of the company.

1:28:02There might be, you know, people, people who just don't want to work for the new CEO. And, you know, like John was saying how, like when Johnny Ive left, a lot of people went with him. When Alan Dye left, some people went with him. Like sometimes you just want to stay with the person you've been working with because you work well together or whatever. So like when the CEO leaves, there tends to be a lot of shifting around of things below them. So I think there's enough smoke to this fire. I think Tim Cook is going to leave soon and, you know, I guess leave in terms of the CEO role in particular.

1:28:35We don't, you know, if he's made chairman of the board or whatever, that's a different story. But like, it does seem like he's going to leave the CEO role in the near future. This sounds very, very likely. There's a lot of smoke now behind this from pretty good sources. So probably he's out soon as CEO for whatever reason. And so I think we're about to see a lot of this turnover. We're already seeing it like in the last few weeks. I think this is a very exciting time for Apple. And, you know, this whole generation now, like look at the leadership page now. How many of them are going to be here in five years on that leadership page?

1:29:09You know, their government report is that, you know, the the the quartet of executives that are gaining power now turnus eddie q craig federighi and sabi khan well craig federighi is 57 uh eddie q is 61 i don't know how old to be con is off the top of my head but like so even though like turnus i think is about 50 but even of those four people eddie q and craig federighi and probably sabi khan all three of those will probably be retired within 10 years maybe five so like there's a lot of turnover about to happen. And I think it's time. This era of executives has done very well. They've made a lot of great stuff happen.

1:29:52And it's time for the next generation to start filtering in. So I'm looking forward to this. I think this will be exciting. And even if it's a little bit bumpy at times, again, people make mistakes in their new roles here and there. Even if it's a little bit bumpy, I'm excited for all of those initial ideas that have been held back for whatever reason to start being implemented. And so some of those changes to start shifting. And I'm not expecting things to change overnight. Again, this is a huge company with huge operations. And like just things don't turn on a dime, but progress will be made.

1:30:22And it'll add up over time and it'll be pretty meaningful, I bet. So I'm very much looking forward to this transition. I think we also need some young people to cycle back into Apple, which is the thing that happens. Lots of people go to work for Apple, then they leave Apple, then they come back later. certainly that happened in like the the run-up to near bankruptcy in the late 90s and then people came back once they realized apple was ascendant again and that has happened at various times in the jobs era where they this job second era where they uh were very successful and people left the company with their stock options uh thinking they sold at the peak and went and did something else but then they came back at apple because they realized apple was still growing and their startup that they went to failed or whatever uh the thing about people hanging around for a long time is that it does encourage people to go elsewhere because it seems sort of like the leadership structure is sort of ossified um and like i said the idea is those long-time employees are sort of carrying the spirit of apple forward you know that they've been around here for a long time they really know what makes apple apple uh and it's important for them to stay with the company because they're keeping that spirit alive well that spirit again that spirit's only good if it prevents bad things from happening but if all those people leave one of the dangers of lots of turnover is now you get a bunch of young people who have no idea what apple should be right because they've grown up with an apple that has had deteriorating user interface design for example and so they don't see that as a hallmark of apple strength they just think it's like oh they have cool shiny phones or something and they have no idea about like apple's traditional strengths in human-centered design because that's not the apple that they've seen from the outside or the inside and so the all the old people leave and you do need some people around who are like hey back in the day we used to carefully design interfaces with these things in mind and we didn't just we didn't just wing it we're not we're not the same as samsung like we have a different ethos and like what are you talking about all phones are the same we just make shiny ones we're apple it's like no there is there is something deeper so i hope some people who left apple some people left apple and discussed let's say cycle back in because we need people who know what apple should be and some of those people are no longer at apple so yes new leadership new ideas and again the new leadership like Like Ternus has been with the company a long time.

1:32:25It's not like he's a Rano from outside. Like that's why no one is even assuming that Apple's new leader would come from outside the company. But as you go down the org chart, there are lots of people there. I wonder, like, do they know what Apple is supposed to be? If all of the people who have been at Apple for decades leave and just Apple is left for the new people, I think Apple has been doing weird stuff for such a long time that there's probably not a lot of universal agreement about what Apple should be. Again, it seems like there is in our circles because we just talk to other old Apple people, right?

1:32:54But the younger people, right, how do they feel about App Store policy? Do they just accept it as the way things are because that's the way the internet has been their entire life, right? They don't remember an error when people were selling software over the internet, not through the App Store because they weren't alive for that or weren't old enough to use computers when that happened. So there are some concerns about just like let the young people run this. But again, Ternus is 50. He's not young. uh but he'll he could 50 becoming ceo at 50 still gives you a lot of runway to do lots of stuff and then the other folks so like you know for all we love phil schiller and jobs we act like i kind of hope those people kind of stay around uh continuing to just be the the sort of cranky old people who keep the spirit of apple alive but who wants to work for new people decades younger than you right and i think there was one of the suruji rumors that he didn't want to work under a different ceo who knows why he loves tim cook so much i mean get they made a good team or whatever But like when you reach a certain age, it's kind of galling to have some kid come and be your new boss.

1:33:53Right. And that makes people retire. So there is some danger in this transition. But I do hope like if you're out there and you're listening and you used to work at Apple and you know what the heck you're doing, wait for the dust to settle and consider maybe going back to Apple. Not just because you may be able to rise to the ranks, but also because this company might need your help. Yeah. I wouldn't worry too much about that with this transition, because I mean, the reality is like when you think about like, you know, what is Apple? Well, what would the answer to that be in, say, 2002 or 2004 versus 2007 versus 2008?

1:34:29It changes over time. And I know to you, you're like, that's decades after the company started. But that's when it started to me. So there's a reason why Steve Jobs said, don't do what I would do, do what's right. That sentiment, even though I don't think Tim Cook did a very job of that. I think that sentiment was right. Apple is a set of core values, but the specifics of how those are implemented and deployed and what the products are, what they're like, what's important to them, how they address markets, the specifics of those shift over time as they have to. It's a tech company. Tech is constantly moving, constantly changing.

1:35:06So Apple has changed over time, even like during whatever period of Apple you view as like the good old days uh you out there i'm sure we all have different periods of that but whatever period that is that period was one of many and they shifted around they changed and even today even when you know i you know i have a lot of problems with some of the decisions that the current administration has made but i still love most of their products and i still use most of their products constantly and they're better than they've ever been in most ways yeah we have nitpicks about software design and stuff but like most of the products are amazing and have never been better and so i'm not i wouldn't trade my laptop of today for anything that from you know six years ago you got johnny surigi thank for that one yeah i think the danger is the core values that you're talking about it's not any specific decision but one of the core values is user interface design and like it manifests in different ways because user interface design means something different when it's an ipod click wheel versus when it's the original macintosh user interface versus when it's the eye you know the the iphone right but all those things were informed by those core values and apple has held on to a lot of its core values but when we see it's kind of like an inside out for people who've seen that movie when those pillars start to crumble you're like oh wait like this is not just oh you made a bad decision or something or whatever this is like one of those core value pillars like again like apple making a car that's very different than what apple used to be or making a phone for that matter or anything like it's fine for the company to change it becomes something different but the thing that makes apple apple the thing that makes them successful the thing that makes us attracted to their products are those core values and that's what you're worried about crumbling like again with the app store stuff i think a lot of that stuff they've done with the app store is against some of the core values of apple although others would argue it is aligned with the core values of apple screwing developers but anyway like again for young people who have grown up in a world with much more powerful corporations having their thumb on every creator right but that's just normal to them it's good to have some of the ethos from like the apple 2 era or whatever when you know when the company had a different attitude towards developers you can argue about what is has it ever been apple's core value when did it change which core values do you like but i think user entry design and attention to detail are two that people would agree with that should be universal to the history of apple which manifests in different ways but when we see those pillars crumbling inside out style it's when i get a little panicked i just want to make sure that whoever is in the new regime understands that their job is to restore those pillars, not to ignore them and pretend they never existed.

1:37:35Yeah, I think this is a very interesting and I'll even go so far as to say exciting time to be someone that's intrigued by Apple as a company. As you both have said, I think, you know, getting some new blood up at the top is probably healthy. And maybe it won't be. Maybe everything will take a terrible, terrible turn. And next thing you know, will be the accidental Android podcast. I doubt it, but you never know. But I'm tentatively and cautiously optimistic that 2026 is going to bring a lot of really interesting and really exciting and really positive changes. Yeah. One of the other reasons I'm optimistic is I look at sort of like, to use a car analogy, the car they've made, like the car they have there, the pieces, the pieces of the puzzle or whatever, like the ingredients.

1:38:21Pick your metaphor. the stuff that apple has right now you look at it from an outside perspective as a tech enthusiast who loves apple and you're like you've got all the pieces here you can do great things the only thing stopping you is yourself from making done like it's not like in the age of like oh i don't know what they don't have a good operating system story they don't have a modern operating system and they don't know what to do with their cpus and the power pc can't get to the clock speeds that they promised and you know like all the pieces are there like you're so close like that's why that's why to marco's point all their products are so good now it's just that they they just need to make a couple of decisions differently it's not as if there's some fundamental problem where it's like again like the operating system or it's like what is this company going to do they're still basically a computer company and everyone else is moving on to have modern operating systems and they cannot get their act together that was a really concerning time whereas now we see like this amazing vehicle that has been created the apple of today this giant company it's like you've got it.

1:39:18Just you know, whatever. Turnus, take the wheel. Alright, thanks to our sponsors this week. Factor, Lisa, and Aura Frames. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the many perks of ATP membership is overtime. Our weekly bonus topic. Every single episode has bonus content. Usually another extra like 15 to 20 minutes or so. And it's one topic extra and that's called overtime. This week on overtime, We'll be talking about how the Apple Watch and Mac Mini are no longer advertised as being carbon neutral. Will Apple really be carbon neutral by 2030 as they had planned?

1:39:56We'll be talking about that in overtime. Join to listen atw.fm slash join. Thanks, everybody. We'll talk to you next week. Now the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental. Accidental. Oh, it was accidental. Accidental. John didn't do any research. Marco and Casey wouldn't let him. Because it was accidental. Accidental. It was accidental. Accidental. And you can find the show notes at ATP.fm. And if you're into Mastodon, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S. So that's Casey Liss. M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M. Anti-Marco Armin S-I-R-A-C U-S-A-C-R-A-C-U-S-A It's accidental Accidental They didn't mean to Accidental Accidental Tech Podcast So long So I have a software problem that like, it's kind of like Margo's problem with tethering.

1:41:13it's like what are you going to do about it it's not the type of thing i mean i guess someone can write in and tell me what i can do about it but it's this uh messages which i use to communicate with my family has done a thing that i've heard other people talk about and i got to ignore them when it wasn't happening to me but now it's happened to me i have for example i have a message a group message thread whatever a message group that's me my wife and my daughter where she talks to her two parents about stuff that she needs us to do for her while she's at college mostly or ask for pictures of the dog or whatever that's that's the group me my wife and my daughter the group has existed i don't know since since she got an iphone basically um where the three of us talk about stuff it recently the apple has added the features where you can put like a background image on it and you've always been able to name the group and so she has fun renaming it uh like anyway it's a group um and then i think maybe about a month ago my wife was complaining that now she has two message threads that are me her and my daughter and they look identical and sometimes when she sends a message it goes into one group and sometimes it goes into the other one and i'm like oh that's crappy she's like how do i fix this i said i don't know then it happened to me now i have two message groups with these three people in them that have the same name and the same stuff or whatever but they are separate and so every time i want to send a message i got to make sure i'm sending a message to the group that has most recently had activity in it and not the other one which hasn't which means that if i'm ever in another app and i want to share the message thread since the groups are named the same like i don't know and i don't know which one is the one that's had activity now if you look at the groups i look at them and i think okay from a computer person perspective i kind of see the like this one if i look at who's in the group it shows apple ids and the other one shows phone numbers right that's the problem right but but here's the thing nailed it here's the thing in the contacts app i know it doesn't matter those phone numbers and apple ids are associated with the same person what is the function of the contacts database if not to let you know that all of these things refer to this one person therefore if there is a message thread with those three people it shouldn't matter if it's a phone number an apple id a phone number a phone number phone number apple id apple id apple id and the second question is how did this ever happen because it's not like we intentionally made a new group with those three people in it and i know we didn't make a new group because if we did we wouldn't have made like all of the attributes of the group exactly match the old one but they do so it's like the the group splintered at some point when we were all away from wi-fi or something and we can only use our phone numbers and now it's bifurcated why doesn't messages merge them why can't i force messages to merge them this seems like just messages not working my mental model of how messages should work and how the context database should function is obviously not the actual model and it's maddening and i'm sure there's some reason they do this with like phone numbers and sms and whatever but like we're all on iphones it's all blue bubbles like it seems to me that at least there should be an option or preference somewhere that says look just when you're recruiting groups groups of people it's that person whether it's coming from their apple id their phone number or whatever the hell other information is in there they're back in the day their aim address or whatever it's that person that's why all those things are in their contact cards i'm very frustrated by it if anyone knows the solution to this this does not involve deleting one of the conversations which is you know we don't want to do because now there's history in both of them i would just love for them to be merged or to appear in one place but i think that's not possible hmm i wonder if there's if it's if it has to do with like if okay so if you have the if you have a contact card that has somebody's name or it has somebody's apple id and phone number on the same contact but if someone else in the conversation has a different combination like it if they have just the name and not the apple id maybe but that's not the case could that no i'm saying like so maybe the system is designed to be this strict because if it wasn't it could introduce weird like either you know either disclosures of private data accidentally or it could have like this weird fractional thing of like what if if the different people in the conversation have different spotty contacts for each other maybe that could create some kind of weird condition that that would break in some way or would leak data i feel like if that's the case where you have different contact info on different sides it just i mean that is the case when you're talking not with my family but with strangers where someone is on one person's phone they show up with their face and their contact info on your phone they just show up as a phone number because you don't have any contact info on them but it's still the same conversation your view into it is different because you don't have that person's contact information all you know is their own phone number whereas the two other participants have contact information the same way we see different pictures for our contacts because my daughter has a different picture for me than my wife has a very uh for me right so they see different me's in the conversation but it's still me yeah i don't know i don't know it seems like either way it seems like there should be a way to merge the conversations i should be able to like drag them on top of each other or select them both and say please merge these for the purposes of history or whatever in the case where all three of us have all the contact info and all you know we we all have our own apple ids and our phone numbers and they're all in all of our contacts i have made sure of that i would also suggest um a killer feature that i wish i message had and maybe they can add this.

1:46:38I often will get added to group conversations where there's some random phone number in it that I don't know. It's a bad experience for all around if there's some random in a conversation that you don't have their contacts and then you have to message like oh hey, who's number 1234 at the end? Who is this? I don't have your contact. It's clumsy and annoying when you're trying to form groups. So what I would love to see is some feature that addresses that. Maybe the way to do it is like when you are in a group conversation, if you send a message to the group and anyone else in the group doesn't have your contact, maybe iMessage prompts you to share your contact with the people who don't have it.

1:47:20I think it already does that for your image, but only for your image, right? Image and name, if I'm not mistaken. Oh, okay. So maybe this is already covered. In the gaming world, they do it kind of the reverse where it's like, you can offer to share your real name with people or not and people can make a request for you or they want to see your real name or they want to become close friends instead of just friends but like in the game world it's very much like standoffish where nothing happens unless there's a two-way handshake about an agreement that you want to share this information which does make it a little bit annoying but it's it's very cautious i think apple is less cautious like sharing their offering to share images and stuff especially since people just tap through that stuff like it pops up you're like yeah yeah whatever they don't even know what they're doing they don't know they're sending their image to other people or whatever um but again i've just like whatever the policy is fine you know you've got this policy that's very protective or whatever there should be a way to manually you know to your point like just like you said marco the way this manifests is who is blah blah blah blah blah now you're reading someone's phone number out which maybe you know i guarantee everyone could look up because they're in the same group chat but a lot of people won't know it would be much better if there was a verb that people could use like let's all share our info like like some kind of verb that everyone knew how to do in messages where you just press one button and say yes i've agreed to share all my info with everybody if there was a word behind that there was an action if there was a proper noun if there was something if there was some kind of vocabulary to talk about this instead of individually having to say who is one two three four five who's this number who's that number i don't have you this you don't have that's what i'm saying like like messages should should basically prompt the people whose numbers are not known to someone to say hey this person in the group doesn't have your contact do you want to you know reveal yourself or something but even that is like onesie twosie like you could just have someone in the group says we should all super share and there'd be a super share button and we push super share and everyone in the group gets everyone else's info and like everyone has to turn your key sir and they all have to put super share but once everybody presses super share everybody gets shared with everybody else right as opposed to going onesie twosie to individual people and sending contacts and doing all that stuff because believe me like we know how to sell send a contact card to somebody i send contact cards to my family all the time they just stare at it in their messages they have no idea like am i supposed to do something like this like yes you are supposed to do something without i'm sending you the entire contact information you just have to tap it you just have to do literally anything with it and it will open in contacts and maybe you'll ask if you want to merge with existing but they just look at it and be like is that did that do something like no you gotta at least on the mac you have to do stuff with it maybe ios it automatically adds it but anyway no i don't ever automatically adds it this this seems like it should be better and and you know apple has made some progress here with the with the photo sharing stuff or whatever although that mostly all i've heard from my family with the photo sharing is their annoyance because they all want their like my daughter has a i don't think it's ai generated but i forget some picture of me it's like um i think it's a picture of me from middle school but then someone has added like a handlebar mustache and a beard or we need to see this picture we need to see this immediately i think you've seen it before i think i've showed it to you but anyway she insists on keeping that as her contact picture for me but of course apple being helpful is constantly offering my my picture to her and she's like no no stop offering i'm like i'm not offering it to you like ios or whatever like i'm not pressing a button to make that happen it's just unavoidable and same thing on my side i have i have my own pictures of a lot of my contacts and then people are constantly sending like i think like a gruber's contact uh that he's always offering is like the daring fireball logo but i've got an actual picture of him or no he's like a cartoon face or whatever like no no i don't want the cartoon i don't want your corporate logo i I want this picture I took of you.

1:50:52And so I have to constantly have to fend off that thing. And if I accidentally tap it or click the wrong thing one day, I got to. That's why I saved a little folder of like, here are the contact pictures that I want for these people. And even if somehow your finger slips and it gets overwritten by the thing that they want, tough luck. I want this person to look like that. And that is a little bit of a battle. So there's, you know, the system could be improved in many respects. Yeah, I feel like setting custom contact pictures for people, you know, is one of life's great pleasures and they should not be interfering more than necessary with that it and it's funny too like whenever whenever i get like the you know this update update this person's photo from them question mark people who work for apple are always memojis yes no one else ever is i've noticed this they're like i've never had anyone who didn't work at apple have a memoji as their avatar i have had that i i have had regular people use memojis but i swear to you i don't know if it was an edict or what but i have noticed this as well i don't know a whole bunch of people that work at apple but golly i don't think it's a hundred percent for me but it's darn near a hundred percent maybe it was like fun to like use it like when it was first being developed and you were like inside apple but when it like essentially went wide inside apple or especially if you were in the people who got to see it ahead of time but like as i've complained about emojis before they are the opposite of a like a likeness because every memoji's face is head is shaped the same and that's not true of people that's why memojis never look like the person because like a caricature that you get at a carnival or any kind of cartoon thing will emphasize the things that make you look like you and memojis never do that me's unlike the nintendo wii would let you make a long skinny head if you got a long skinny head make a short one make a big nose make a small nose like like but memojis everybody is a spherical generic thing and they look i mean other than the fact you can say oh i guess that person has brown hair and so does your memoji and i guess their glasses look like yours they never look like the people which is fine if you don't want it to be a likeness you just want it to be like a generic avatar but like you know why not just i don't know i just i i'm not a fan of emoji i don't think they serve a purpose because if i see him to your point about talking with apple people if i see him emoji and like as an icon i have no idea who that person is like even if they use the same emoji all the time they just all look the same they all look generic and i can't recognize people based on an emoji it's one it's one of the indicators if somebody does work at Apple.

1:53:15In the same way, when you go to somebody's Macedon profile, there'll be a couple of indicators sometimes. People who live in, as their location in Macedon, they put some suburb near Cupertino or something, and they don't say their company, or they'll say fruit company. There'll be all these kind of coded things that indicate, yeah, you work for Apple, you just don't want to get in trouble. The Memoji is definitely a tell. Now, also, while we are working on the Contacts database in our fantasy here, archived contacts please make a concept of archived contacts where you can put people who you don't want to contact without some kind of warning uh or you don't want to show up in searches or like so you know things like estranged family members ex-partners people who have died you don't want to like delete their contact because you might someday want it again or in the case of somebody who has died like you don't want any all the past messages with that person to just be like unassociated with a name anymore like you know so but have a concept of an archived contact because think about what this can do first of all people who have like you know a name conflict where like your your spouse is named bob and you have you know a bob in your contacts that you talk to once every five years and siri will often offer you that one instead of your spouse even though So many of these things could be resolved.

1:54:41Let me archive a whole bunch of contacts that I don't need in frequent day-to-day or present-day use, but I don't want to delete because I might someday need them or I don't want to lose association. I've always wanted this within a single contact. I've been battling this for the entire time I've had contacts, even back in the Claire's email and Entourage days. Within a contact. Often my contact, but often other people's. I have a massive history of email addresses. most of them don't exist or work for me anymore but why would i want to keep them in my contact because like you said when there's any kind of thing in the world like an email or a message thread or whatever i want to know that it was from me back when i worked at company xyz because it's associated with that email address which i don't want to be in my contact or ever in any autocomplete or whatever but when someone sees me at some company.com that company long since has gone under and that domain name is gone but there's some email and some email archive that i'm browsing or some message thread and something that i'm looking at i still wanted to know that was me but i do not want that email address to be anywhere and i wish within a contact i could say yeah i used to have these email addresses same thing with addresses in some respects i used to live with these addresses but i don't anymore but anyway yeah please at least at least an archive contact like people who like you don't want to show up in siri you don't want to like because like so often you are like you you do something in the os like you do a spotlight search and so often you're like one tap would call this person right now and it's the last thing it's like a minefield and sometimes you accidentally do like oh my god i just called this person i haven't worked with in eight years like the or the auto complete when sending an email you don't notice it tap completes the wrong thing you send the email it's exactly the wrong person or like like you said my grandfather my deceased grandfather and my nephew have exactly the same first and last name that is difficult it's difficult in for example in photos that's a really difficult one because like in photos i do want to identify old pictures of my grandfather and new pictures of my nephew and they have the same name and yeah you can get cute with like giving them nicknames and stuff like that or whatever but like if one of those contacts was archived when they come in the pop-up the archive one could be like grayed out or a little skull and crossbones next to it i don't know like wow whatever whatever you want to do but it's like seriously like my long dead grandfather and my just entering high school nephew, there shouldn't be as much confusion in life as there is just because they have the same name.

1:57:10Yeah, or just, you know, like an ex-girlfriend or something, or like, you don't want to like accidentally call certain people or text certain people. And like, yes, you mentioned autocomplete with email. What about autocomplete in message threads? That's another one where it's like, you know, as you're just typing in names, oh, send this to Casey and John. Well, what if there were some other Casey in my past I really didn't want to talk to, you know, because he was really bad at transport tycoon back in the day or something. I'm right here, Marco. I'm right here. What if there were other people named John?

1:57:39Can you imagine that? Right. I'm sure you never have this problem. No, I completely agree with both of you. I have had occurrences and occasions where I've wanted exactly what each of you describes. So, yes, you have my vote. This might be the thing. One of the three of us, you know, people always ask us, you know, if you could be Craig Federighi for a day, what would you go and force everyone to do and then quit right after? This might be it for me. Archive Contacts is a pretty... Also, look, Apple, hey, take this as a little suggestion. If Gurman's right that you're looking for like a Snow Leopard kind of bug fixing kind of release, and I know all the problems with that reference that Snow Leopard actually did have new features, but whatever.

1:58:17Anyway, if you're looking for a kind of a quality assurance, low excitement kind of release, and you need some features to jazz people up about it, Archive Contacts is such a good feature that it's it's not a ton of work i know there's a lot of places where contacts show up and you'd have to account for this but so it's not no work it's not it isn't like an afternoon i was gonna say it is kind of actually a fairly heavyweight feature because it gets its tendrils into everything but they just added password history to password so we know they can do it yeah like it it's not a small lift but it's not a big lift it's not like a major tentpole thing but it's one of those little like quality of life features that would breeze by in the wwc keynote and you get a huge applause because that solves problems people actually have like no i don't want to call you know the weird you know uncle i haven't spoken to in 10 years or my ex who if i call them that could bring up some weird feelings or this person who died 10 years ago like no i don't want to call these people with one tap accidentally i don't want to accidentally add them to a message thread but i don't want to you know delete the contact either like so it's such it's such a big high value win if you can get it i feel like fixing the messaging merging thing is much more targeted and easier to do so if someone's wanting to join apple and fix one bug do the message merging thing you can get in and out faster i bet mine's easier no because you just got to do the only you only have to work on the messages app code base to implement my thing your thing you got to work on a million apps no honestly i don't think you do you know but like all the pop all the pop-up contact autocomplete things now have to understand the concept of an archive contact and have to display it differently no i think by default anything that's archived doesn't show up through that api but you can't have that because photos needs to show dead people right you need to identify dead people in photos so photos needs to the very least you got it you got to do the integration with photos like it's it's a long it's yours is a bigger lift it's definitely better i don't think so you're talking about merging iMessage threads no way that's crazy well how about just not letting them bifurcate ever you're just going forward that's all i'll take that you don't have to fix that you don't have to fix the damage done in the past just going forward uh when people are talking in a conversation look up which contact is associated with that thing and say here this is just it's so frustrating like what is the point of having a contact with lots of different information if it doesn't treat all that information as corresponding to that contact it's like it's only a one-way relationship it's like one to many and then many to many in the other direction i mean i you're not wrong but But as soon as you said, oh, my group chats have split, that is almost certainly, I mean, you nailed the problem.

2:00:49Some of the chats are with emails, some are with phone numbers, some are a mixture of both. And I agree with you. It's infuriating that we have the technology to fix this problem. I don't know why it's not already fixed. And the other thing is the interface of like, there is so little visibility and awareness of people who initiate conversations. Are you initiating it with a phone number or an Apple ID? almost nowhere do they make that super duper clear people don't even know that they can set it you know you can set the default by default start conversations with this but the default can be different on different platforms because they just see a name in an autocoply it's the thing that infuriates me about uh uh facetime on apple tv which i used to talk to my family like on the actual apple tv and i use like continuity camera with my phone facetime on apple tv it's like start a conversation with and then uh you you'll tap on a contact and it'll be like my dad's name and it'll say underneath it home home home home mobile mobile home home which one of those is a phone number which one of those is an apple id who knows just they don't tell you because there's no room on my 65 inch screen to indicate which one is a phone number which was an apple id and the consequences of getting it wrong is they get rung on their ipad when they were trying to use their phone or they're not near their ipad or they're not on wi-fi or the like it's it's but They got out of the way of your content, John.

2:02:06Yeah, there's no room for any word except for home and mobile. Good luck.