693: Negative Bonus Points

22:31Marco Arment:I mean, to be fair, like that's a Johnny Ive Mac UI. Like Apple has made a lot of Mac UIs that look exactly like that. And also like Electron apps, obviously a lot of Electron apps look like that as well. So that's, I mean, it's, you can be forgiven, like maybe the LMs can be forgiven because it's like the point I was making to Jason, it's like these LMs don't know how to make a good mac app but then again these days neither does apple so yeah like what do you what do you expect them to learn from so we're we're in a dark time with mac uis here but but yeah the first shot out of the box from lm hey make me a mac app with swift ui and it's like is this what you wanted and it looks like a freaking web page and that's all with native controls by the way like there's multiple layers there's electron as the technology and there's also like what does the ui look like and they are somewhat connected and that one leads you in a particular direction, but you can use fully native Swift UI and make a UI that looks like a web app.

23:20All right.

23:21John Siracusa:And then continuing the what about corner, Weimar or something like that writes, does John's skepticism about using the move command modifiers in the finder extend to using the Unix MV command or move command? If so, why? If not, what do you think is different between the two? Wouldn't they be built similarly? yeah my objection was to using a modifier in the finder that turns what would be a copy operation into a move operation that's where the danger lies not just like moving a file within a volume on the finder because that is just going to end up doing like essentially a rename system call into the covers and like that's exactly the same as the mv command uh but it's like when you're doing something across volumes if you drag a file from one volume to another you see the little plus badge appear on your cursor because it's telling you hey i'm going to copy this and if you hold down command it will go away and say oh no actually i'm going to move it and copying it is fine obviously moving it is a basically a two-step operation because it can't actually move it with the like you know the system call that would actually move a file because it's a different volume it has to first copy it over there and then when it's done copying it has to delete the source and at various times the finder has had bugs where that process could mess up where it's like i i've successfully copied it and i've deleted the source and you look at the place where we're supposed to copy it and it's not there but the source is also deleted that's what i'm saying to avoid so it's really no connection to the mv command i believe the mv command would not work across volume so don't quote me on that because i haven't actually tried it on the mac or in any yeah in any recent unix for that matter um but yeah don't worry about just like moving a file in the finder by like dragging it from one folder to another within a volume that's perfectly fine all right let's talk about apfs on spinning hard drives david david mckieich writes i've recently switched back to using time machine i've had issues with degrading performance on apfs hard drives in the past so i decided to enable defragmentation using the disk util command line tool today i learned that you can defrag an apfs disk i had no idea uh anyway uh there's some uh details on this that i think john you'd like to to add it's just a disk util apfs defragment and then the disk name and then enable uh so you're enabling defragmentation and i think the disk the man page is okay about this but i think what they want you to put in the disc is something like disc 3 or disc 3 s1 you can get that info from using disc utile to list your devices and stuff but anyway it's not particularly friendly but you can figure it out uh and the disc utile man page says this about the apfs defragment enable feature um it's manage automatic background defragmentation of user file data that's a mouthful but the point is this is not a command that you run and it does defragmentation this enables quote-unquote automatic background defragmentation i don't know why it says of user file data as opposed to what like is it just saying that it doesn't do it on the the read-only system volume but anyway that feature exists i would only use that on on spinning disks and not on ssds but just fyi it's there all right and then we'll also put a link to us and nj psi roundup in the show notes uh david continues i've enabled this on two drives the drive for projects and a backup drive and so far so good does this defrag option really help?

26:25John Siracusa:When does it run? Why is it hidden away? And additionally, should Apple create a subset of APFS specifically for spinning hard drives to address these issues? So if you follow the MJ side link, you'll see that a lot of people are reporting that it does help. I never ran it on my spinning disk. I probably should have. I'm assuming if the command exists, that it actually does something and that it runs in the background. And I think the reason it's hidden away is because spinning disks are a legacy thing as far as Apple's concerned. And so they're not going to emphasize anything related to them i'm i'm actually kind of surprised that it exists at all but it probably just exists from back when they were first developing apfs and they didn't know how fast ssd adoption would go uh they didn't have an eye towards that working well on uh on spinning discs but they figure well maybe we should have this defragmentation feature anyway maybe it'll help on ssds i'm assuming that will determine that it doesn't really help at all on ssds so that's why it's kind of buried in an obscure backwater we've talked about apfs features before that technically exist, but have either been abandoned or just like left in an incomplete state for years and years.

27:27So this may fall into that category, but it is officially supported and it's in the man page. So I would feel perfectly comfortable doing it. And if it helps and makes your spinning disk performance at APFS better than, you know, go for it. And again, the reports from the few users I saw reporting on the say that it did help them.

27:42John Siracusa:All right, let's talk about AI sentiments. We talked about this. Was this overtime last week, I believe? It was like the main topic. Oh, my bad. All right. My bad. Anyways, we talked about, you know, how everyone is crotchety about AI, which fair. Nathan writes, one thing y 'all might have missed in the long list of AI objections, thanks to your self-employment, workplace behavior. Imagine the dumbest, laziest, most malicious person you've ever worked with. Now arm them with a tool that can generate mountains of reports, JIRA tickets, internal documentation spam, and sprawling poll requests with dozens of copilot comments, hundreds of changed files, thousands of changed lines, and a long, nonsensical description.

28:19John Siracusa:They bury the rest of us in slop, and the execs applaud it. Woof. Nathan does make me glad that I left that world before LM coding agents came along. But a lot of bad workplace experiences begin with the premise that is, imagine the dumbest, laziest, most malicious person you ever worked with. I have no problem imagining that person. I work with that person. Technology can enable them to be worse. There's lots of those people. Hopefully, I've never been that person. But yeah, that person is going to find a way to make everyone's life miserable no matter what. But I can imagine coding agents being an accelerant in particular for developers of that bent.

28:51Marco Arment:I think one thing I wanted to address on the AI sentiment angle, I think one of the biggest things to keep in mind when thinking about what do regular people who are not tech enthusiasts like us, what do they think of AI? where are they seeing ai in most of the world that's not having fun generating mac apps with ai they're seeing ai make their lives worse in a few ways so either if they work in a field that ai is destroying the market for that's going to directly impact them in a really big possibly very negative way but also everyday life when you call a call center now you're hitting ai agents When you try to get customer support, now you're hitting AI agents.

29:37Marco Arment:Customer support in general is now being made significantly worse in lots of areas because now they're putting AI agents in front of, you know, between you and getting your problem solved by somebody who actually has, you know, the power to do it. I've seen this myself and I'm sure everyone else is seeing it even more than I am. so what most people see about the world of ai is things in their life are being made worse and they don't necessarily see the upside for them because maybe there isn't one or at least maybe there isn't one yet or maybe there isn't one directly so what what most people are seeing is ai is making my life more annoying or it's making it harder for me to make a living and And they're not seeing the upside.

30:22Marco Arment:Also, AI is now being added to a bunch of subscription-based products. And then the prices are going up. And the companies are saying, we're now delivering you so much more value with our new AI bot that's in our product. And therefore, we need to raise our price. And the people are like, well, what if I don't want that? And I don't want to pay the higher price. Can I just keep paying the old price and not have your stupid AI that I didn't ask for that you're shoving in my face? So I think we really have to be aware of what most people are actually seeing from, quote, AI, like the world of AI that they're seeing, I think for a lot of people, it's just making their lives harder or more annoying or harder to make money in.

31:00John Siracusa:Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I think just AI being force fed to everyone is just not great.

31:04Marco Arment:And think about, you know, too, like where is all this value that's being created? Where is it going? It's going to a few companies at the top. That's where it's going. Like there's lots of ways that AI can make individual workers more productive. It can help small businesses. There's lots of ways that it can help and that it is helping. But where most of the value now, so far, is going is it's making a few very rich people even richer. And that's a pretty bad selling proposition for everyone else whose lives are being made worse by AI destroying their job or being used in places that make their lives harder to get around in.

31:46John Siracusa:Ian Robinson continuing the AI sentiment chat. Ian Robinson said, you mentioned legislators mandating that data center construction should include clean energy production. Ireland has done exactly that. We'll link to Ireland tells data center developers to bring their own clean energy. Ian continues. See also the Irish government leap, which is large energy user action plan program, which we will also link to in the show notes. All right. Then we also had a hilarious petapixel article, which was sent to us by Dave Aiton. This is Michael Zhang writing it. Someone shared an actual Monet painting as an AI-generated artwork and asked people to explain what makes the quote-unquote AI image inferior to a genuine Monet piece.

32:34John Siracusa:So again, they're baiting people by putting up an actual painting from the actual Monet and saying, oh, what do you think is wrong with this AI piece? And the responses are just incredible. John has been kind enough to curate a few for us. The first one, there's no cohesion to the depth and color choices. The reflection of the tree blends into the lily pads with no regard for spatial depth or contrast. The background lily pad algae amalgam is egregiously vague, like most AI art.

33:02Marco Arment:Egregiously vague. I love that. Mm-hmm.

33:04John Siracusa:The second example, the reflection in AI art is just noise splattered right. Monet actually understood how light behaves on water. Third one, slop. Doesn't look anywhere near like a Monet. Looks exactly like somebody trying to replicate its style in achieving like 20 % of it. Not as vibrant as Monet's typical choice of colors. Looks dull. Finally, as an amateur art enjoyer, the only criticism I can offer is the AI-generated image does not make me feel anything. It does not conjure emotion, thought, or wonder. It's just a colorful wallpaper pattern. If you look up Monet painting in Google, Google images, you feel something.

33:40John Siracusa:Just incredible work, everyone. So this, I put this article in here, not to dunk on people who don't, don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of every single Monet painting, but just to show that this is an embodiment of the sentiment about AI, because most people aren't art experts and they don't know every painting and they don't know, like, you know, not every Monet painting is as good as all the other ones right like any other humans output right so but it's just like because they were primed with this is an ai image all of their sort of vitriol for the basic concept of ai comes streaming out and they end up you know making fools of themselves by saying that uh this is like 20 or maybe when they would agree maybe you say yeah this is one of my 20 paintings it took me a little while to find this one we'll we'll link to a wikipedia um page showing that yes, this is in fact actually a real Monet painting.

34:28And I guess some people didn't like it, but yeah, this is really just like, if you tell me it's AI, I'm already going to hate it, and let me tell you why.

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36:43John Siracusa:If you'll permit us, there's been some pretty big news in the car world. And so we're going to do a main show neutral. And this is in no small part because it has been requested many, many times. John, your future car has arrived. The, I'm sure, extraordinarily affordable Ferrari Luce, which is apparently starting at about the equivalent of$650 ,000. So let me just drop here, atp.fm slash join. This from the outside. Nicely done. No amount of members is going to get us into this car. I'm sorry. You never know. Don't be defeatist, John. Don't be defeatist. If every person in the United States became a member, we'll see how we do it.

37:25John Siracusa:Yeah, right. All right. So here's the thing. From my personal opinion, we'll go through the specs. But my personal opinion is from the outside, this is an abomination. From the inside, it looks great. But let's talk about what it is. All right. So the specs are it is a five-seat, as you would expect, of an average sedan, four-door liftback sedan Ferrari. They've never done a sedan. is that right that's not an suv or something along those lines well i'm going to debate you on whether this is a sedan but uh the the the parisangue is a uh four-door four-seat it doesn't have a third seat and it doesn't have a middle seat in the back seat so this is their first five seat ever all right thank you for the correction john uh so yeah this is five seats four doors it's lift back but what's interesting is the rear doors open i guess you could say backwards so if you imagine the side of the car where the the front door opens like where on the B pillar where the front door opens, that is also where the rear door begins to open, which is different than almost every sedan that you've ever seen.

38:23John Siracusa:I think a lot of Rolls Royces do this. There's been plenty of cars in the past that do this. I have a car in my garage that does this. Oh, that's true. The i3 does that, doesn't it? And the Ferrari's own Paris Segway does this. Ah, there you go. And also, I think that this was most, perhaps most famously for people of our age, whatever it was, it was a Lincoln, I think, that was in the original Matrix that did this as well. I want to say it was a Continental. I probably have that wrong. It's very common. It's been common more in the past than, you know, lots of fancy cars have done it, I think, as a throwback to the past.

38:51But occasionally, I think the reason the i3 does it is when you have a rear door that's very, very tiny, it's just easier to have it open that way and just have one big opening. Didn't the Honda Element do this as well? No. I believe that's right. Yeah. The Honda Element, I think, doesn't have a B-pillar. But anyway, they chose to do that with their back doors. They're sort of rear hinged.

39:06John Siracusa:Yep. It has 1 ,035 horsepower, 730 pound-feet of torque, which is quite a lot for perspective if you're not a car person. My Volkswagen has somewhere around 300 horsepower and 300 pound-feet of torque. I don't think that's entirely right, but it's in the ballpark. It is a quad-motor all-wheel drive car. There is a motor per wheel, which is pretty cool. I think, what did the original launch edition Rivians have? It had that. They still do. You can still get a Rivian with a motor per wheel, right?

39:34Marco Arment:Yeah, you can. The one I had was quad-motor. That was the first batch they sold, I think, were all quad-motors. But then, of course, that's fairly expensive and cumbersome. And so they fairly quickly after that launched like dual and eventually tri-motor versions.

39:51John Siracusa:Oh, yeah. I knew about the tri. I hadn't realized that the launch edition or whatever it was was quad. There's a couple other car EVs that also have motor per wheel. It is a straightforward thing to do. It helps you avoid lots of issues with like torque vectoring differentials. I thought you'd just put a motor on each wheel. Yeah. It has around 330 miles of range, which is about 530 kilometers. a 122 kilowatt hour battery, zero to 60 in about two and a half seconds, which is pretty solidly in supercar territory as far as I'm concerned. Maybe not when you consider electric vehicles, but amongst gasoline vehicles, that is astonishingly fast.

40:25John Siracusa:It is just over 5 ,000 pounds, which is about 2 ,300 kilograms. It can charge as fast as 350 kilowatts and starts, as I mentioned, at about$650 ,000. But that's unofficial because US pricing has yet to be announced. So, from the outside, I think the first person I saw say this was Stephen Hackett, if I'm not mistaken, although many people have said it since. This is like Johnny Ive shipped the Magic Mouse as a car. And why am I even bringing up Johnny Ive? I should have explained a little bit. So, when Ferrari was designing this, they actually contracted Love From, which is Johnny Ive, Mark Newsome, and their whole team, to do basically all of the design for this car.

41:07John Siracusa:despite the fact that Ferrari has its own in-house design team and they have done nearly all the design. And from the outside, I hate this thing. It's gotten, I hate it less now that it's been, that I've been sitting with it for several days, but I really, maybe I don't hate it, but I really don't like it like a lot, a lot. John, what do you think about it? Well, this is where I get to before you saying that calling this a sedan. When I saw this car, I'm like, oh, it's a Jaguar I-Pace. If you don't know what a Jaguar I-Pace picture a waymo in your head because waymo uses the jaguar ipace as the foundation of its waymo cars in san francisco i think they have used a couple of different cars but the the one i think the most common one on the street these days is the jaguar ipace the jaguar ipace is not a sedan okay it is not really an suv it's kind of like a crossover thing i really need to sort of codify this in in some way uh because i i instinctively know it when i look at these vehicles but i think maybe one of the measurements would be like distance from the top of the front wheel arch to the top of the hood um you know maybe the points where the windshield intercepts but anyway the the I-PACE looks like a very sleek four-door SUV-ish kind of thing it doesn't look like a sedan it's too upright and tall to be a sedan and the the Ferrari Luce is similar that I don't especially since you don't really get an idea from these pictures how big it is to give you an idea if you're a car person and you look at this and you haven't seen the videos already the the wheels are 24 and 23 inches oh my god they don't look like that in the picture because if you think this is like a sedan rearrange your measurements because that's a 24 inch wheel on the back and now and now look at it and think if that's a 24 inch wheel how high is this thing now it is lower than per sangue which is uh ferrari's quote-unquote suv but i wouldn't call this a sedan but these days like every sedan like even like the toyota crown i look at it i'm like are you still a sedan i'm not sure because everything's got to be tall and upright and look like an suv but yeah it totally looks like an ipace which is not uh a terrible thing to imitate because i think the ipace is actually a reasonably attractive vehicle yeah in fact i think the ipace is significantly better looking than this ferrari i mean it is not it is less johnny ive than this ferrari for sure but uh this car does not particularly appeal to me as a couple of areas where i feel like johnny really blew it or the team really blew it on this um one question i had that i didn't see answered in any of the interviews and granted i didn't see all the interviews we'll link to the ones that we talk about here and we'll talk about a couple of them in more depth but and the ones i looked at i didn't see anyone ask them the question i think i know the answer but i would love to see them answer it which is did ferrari come to love from and say you have to make a four door five seat vehicle like or was that a decision of love from because i feel like that feel like that changes things a lot i'm assuming ferrari came to them because the way ferrari revealed this car is they said here is our you know battery with motors and wheels and suspension and nothing else remember when they showed that oh yeah was that different from when johnny i've showed the only the dashboard right and then later they showed only the dashboard and we talked about it on this show and we're going to talk about it again here but they revealed the fully entire interior but not inside anything just disembodied like here's the wheel here's like it was just the pieces of it we're just floating around so now we get to see them in context with the whole rest of the interior i believe the word you're looking for john is deconstructed yeah and then finally they revealed the entire thing so i'm assuming that ferrari said you have to make a four-door five-seat thing and by the way here's the measurements because we've got the like the the you know the battery the the motor is like love from didn't design that so that's ferrari's engineering they came up with that they said here are your constraints now build a car on top of this which as one of the points was made one of the interviews like it's pretty much a blank canvas because of the way evs are it's like well you've got a big, long, flat floor because of that battery.

44:59There's no tunnel or anything. So like whatever you want to do car wise on top of this, you only have a very few hard points that you have to meet. You've got the top of the suspension geometry, you've got the wheelbase, and that's basically it. You can do anything you want. They could have made it lower. They could have made it taller. They could have made it longer. They could have made it shorter in terms of overhangs and stuff. Right. And maybe they even could have adjusted the wheelbase. Um, but if that's the design brief, which is you're going to make a four door electric Ferrari with five seats uh what they came up with as everyone has pointed out and as the verge and its typical blunt uh headlines pointed out uh here's what their headline said johnny ives ferrari looks nothing like a ferrari i said this about the interior i said that when we saw the pieces of the interior this doesn't look like a ferrari interior it looks like an interior that johnny ives company would make and they put ferrari badges on it and stuff um and the car is similar And to Ferrari's credit slash, I don't know, as, as way of explanation, this is not a, uh, Ferrari is pitching this as this is not a mistake that the idea was make, make this car and don't worry about what Ferraris look like.

46:08This is like a separate thing. In fact, going so far as having the C, I believe the CEO of the company was saying, if you love internal combustion, Ferraris don't buy this car because, because duh, I mean like, you know but the point is they're not saying hey do you love internal for russian ferraris well you're going to love this ev the ceo is saying no you won't you won't love this not it's not the thing and their designer made the point in one of the interviews that we're going to link to which is a somewhat fair point but on the other hand not quite fair he said well in ferrari we don't make cars that look like each other um and that's not true of a lot of car makers i mean not to pick on volvo but look at volvo if you look at volvo's entire lineup you'll see a family resemblance like some of them might be fraternal twins they look very similar design elements from a given like design language of volvo are spread across the entire line whereas if you look at every individual ferrari model yeah there is commonality and in fact i would say more so now than they used to be but every individual car it's like its own shape its own thing and so i say well this one's just another one it's also its own shape that's true it doesn't borrow from other cars just the same way like the you know the the sf90 doesn't borrow from the the f430 or whatever but this one like one of these things is not like the other you line up the entire ferrari um car lineup including the pura sangue which is this existing four-door four-seat quote-unquote suv that looks very similar to this in terms of proportion and shape but it looks nothing like it if you put them next to each other so this is intentionally outside the realm of ferrari it's an ev it's not trying to be an internal combustion engine it's not trying to look like a ferrari and in that regard it has succeeded in not looking like a ferrari because it does not look like a ferrari and as as for whether it looks good or not i have my picks for which aspects of it i'd like the least but uh what what are your least favorite parts of the outside of

48:00Marco Arment:this car i i have to say i don't i don't hate it as much as everyone else does um but those the doors oh no the doors are bad that's like to me like that's that's the one big problem i have with it is those those backwards opening doors because i have like tiff my wife's car has those backwards opening doors and it makes the car so annoying to get in and out of if anyone's in the backseat like anyone like it's you have to like you know squeeze around like oh you go in no you go ahead first no you go in like if you're if you're between like if you're parked in a parking lot a regular parking lot like with you know spots that line up you know that way like squeezing around the door to get the back seat door open and get it like it's such a pain in the butt and i think okay why did they do that and i look at the shape of the car and i'm like it didn't need that like it almost i think it would have been better off just as a two-door car well this is a really big car like that's the thing i was trying to get across with the size of the wheels like i know the i3 is tiny in the back the little rear hinge back doors are also tiny but there is tons of interior space in this car there these door this door is big but what to your point if you want to see this we'll link what various links in the notes where you can see pictures of but a lot of them shows the overhead view of the car with all four doors open and the point marco is making is if you look at that picture you can see that the aperture for the front and rear passenger is narrow and both the front and rear passenger have to go through that little narrow opening that's what you're talking about like oh no you first now you why are you saying that if if they were normal opening doors the person going in the front door would have their little place where they go and the person opening the back door would have their little place where they go and they would both open their door simultaneously and they would both get into the car but here that when you open the doors you're creating one slightly narrower passage that both people have to pass through to get to their entrance into the car and that is silly um it's not as dumb as the falcon wing doors on the model x and i'm sure it is inspired by the various bentleys that johnny ive owns and stuff and by the way for his obsession with symmetry because hey look from above it looks nice and symmetrical doesn't it but it's worse it's worse than regular doors i also i i do not like what they have done to the the front face like the the way it kind of like yep it's like almost inset a little bit like i don't know a lot part there are parts of the front especially like like the way like that like how the the way that the dashboard slopes down into like the hood area there are parts of it that actually remind me a lot of the bmw i8 um and and i actually i think the i8 while it was a very weird car i think it's actually a very striking and and very much the i8 is way better looking in this car but yes i i have to agree You can see it's going for a similar style there, but I think the i8 does a much better job of it.

50:59And the way the taillight section is kind of like inset also, it almost feels like somebody took a Ferrari and stuck a really weird body kit around it.

51:10Marco Arment:And I don't know. The other thing, though, is that it is very, very clear to me that, as you were saying, this is a Johnny Ive designed car. This is not a Ferrari in any way, shape, or form. I actually think parts of this are very cool looking. And the interior definitely looks better than the exterior, no question. Yes, 100%. Like, the interior, I think, is very nice. And I would like much of that or all of that in a car of mine. But yeah, the exterior, it just looks like, yeah, this is what Johnny Ive has been trying to do for like 15 years. was design this car and Ferrari let him do it. And for all the good and bad that comes with a Johnny Ive that's in his fully developed form with no one to hold him back anymore, this is what happens.

52:02Marco Arment:And there's a lot of good there and there's a lot of bizarre and weird there. And I don't want to gloss over the fact that much of it though is very good. I do like a lot of this. And in fact, if this was, you know suppose this was just like you know a high-end bmw or mercedes you know if this was like a 90 000 ev from a luxury brand that would be you know competing with like you know the former model s and you know like the bmw ix stuff like that like yeah that would actually be a pretty compelling uh option but where it is now trying to trying to be a ferrari trying to embody ferrari spirit and design and you know priced as a ferrari priced vehicle i don't quite know who this is for besides johnny himself oh i can tell you who it's for but we'll get to that in a little bit casey what's

52:55John Siracusa:your least favorite exterior uh i think the turbine style wheels which you see sometimes they are freaking terrible you're talking about the aero ones the ones that are like dinner plates like that's that's kind of the problem the curse of the curse of evs is if you get the wheels the wheel covers that cover the entire wheels. It's better for your mileage, but they look worse. Yes. Yeah. Like the Tesla Model 3 ones, I can't envision them just off the top of my head, but I remember thinking they were not good, but not nearly as offensive as these are. It's pretty bad. I also don't like that there's a grab handle on the front.

53:28John Siracusa:Not literally, of course, but like, you know, where the Ferrari logo is, there's a gap beneath the Ferrari logo where the body isn't, if that makes sense, on the front. So like where there would be a hood, there's like a floating sort of situation. It has a front and rear wing. It's the same thing in the back as well. It's basically got a full width front wing and a full width rear wing. I don't mind it as much in the back. In fact, I don't think the back looks that bad, but I really dislike basically everything going on in the front. I'm not as offended by the rear doors. I don't disagree with what you two were saying with it being difficult or more difficult for ingress and egress.

54:01John Siracusa:I don't debate that. But from an aesthetic point of view, I don't really mind them opening the way they do. I don't care for the weird panel in the front doors, like the black panel that's hanging out for some reason. I'm sure there's a reason for it, but I don't know why. But on the exterior, I really don't care for it. I extremely don't care for it as a Ferrari. And I don't think I particularly care for it as anything nicer than like a Kia. And I don't love it. I don't know what I think also about the windshield wipers. They made a big deal in one of the videos that I watched. They made a big deal about the fact that the windshield wipers park vertically rather than horizontally.

54:43John Siracusa:Why? There was a reason that I can't recall. I can tell you why as well. So this is one of my pet peeves with what very expensive cars are doing with their windshield wipers these days. So the windshield wipers, when they are not windshield wiping in their at-rest position, they are positioned on the A-pillars. That means vertically on the left, far left and far right edge of the windshield that's where they sit straight up on the edges of the windshield going from the top to the bottom of the a pillars the reason that they explained why they're there is because as marco mentioned before like that the windshield slopes down underneath the front wing essentially it's not clear to me because i haven't seen enough things whether the windshield glass ends and then another piece of glass continues or whether it's one continuous piece of glass or it's glass and metal but either way the shape defined by the windshield continues all the way to the nose of the car underneath the front wing and therefore if the windshield wipers rested where they do on a normal car horizontally there's no place to hide them from the wind on a normal car there's like a cowl where the windshield wipers kind of tuck into a little cowl when they're not windshield wiping so the air flow goes over them and doesn't hit them and so they needed some place they put the windshield wipers there they would be directly in the airflow that is coming under the front wing and they're on their way up the smooth glass over the top of the car they would hit these gigantic windshield wipers so instead the windshield wipers are vertical so they're not in the airflow that is going to smoothly go over the windshield and through the back of the car they're still in the airflow over the a-pillars but the a-pillars are already there so they're kind of hiding in that position it looks weird it looks weird when they're moving and i really the trend i don't like is windshield wipers that are vertical when not in use the one that kills me the most is one of my favorite cars and one of my like money no object what car would you want the um gmat50 uh has a one of those windshield wipers that is vertical when not in use and it's dead in the center of the windshield just straight up what when when it's a sunny day that's just vertically straight up in the center of the windshield right in your field of view and it's just like wow no thanks i don't like that please stop it but uh yeah this one they hit it by the a-pillars and i think it screws up the look of the car because you're always looking at these giant windshield wipers whereas if they had if they had an integrated a little cowl when it's not raining you wouldn't even see the windshield wipers they'd be hidden away but i'm looking at a picture of a gma t50 and the windshield wipers are horizontally where you would expect them to be like center mountain maybe i'm thinking of making i'm thinking of the t33 i might be off one of the one of the gma cars has a vertical windshield wiper or it might be the t50s or something like that check check the t no it looks like the t33 i think oh that is freaking terrible yeah my bad t33 is also probably t33 i think that's why t33 is the car i'd probably rather have because oh the central seating position on a t50 is great it's annoying to get in and out of so i'd probably actually want a t33 but it's got the windshield wiper there yeah that would kill it for me that's like you know that's even worse than no car play as far as i'm concerned here's my take on the exterior of this car um i agree with what marco said that the back of the car looks weird because it looks like there is like a ferrari 360 or in like this car eight um they i mean it's again if you'll have to look at the images to get what this looks like but it's like here's the back of a car but it's like hollow and inside it is another little car screaming to get out and they emphasize this in some of the design videos the official design videos from ferrari is like look we have this kind of like the part that is in black this is a two-tone type of thing like the body is like red in these examples and like the the canopy is black and so is the roof is black um take off the red part and what you have is just this smooth kind of black lozenge that slopes really really low down on the front and really really low down on the back and then put the red part onto the car.

58:19And the red part forms the front wing and the back wing and some side cladding on it or whatever. So they're emphasizing like there's an inner car and an outer car. And I think in the front, maybe that's okay. Although from the side, it does look like a literal open mouth. Like you can see from the side, the front of this car, the silhouette of this car has a C-shaped mouth at the front that you can see. Like literally there's just nothing there. It's just, it's a little mouth. And then the back, it looks like, that's their nod to ferrari like those two four circular headlights the the 4030 had them and the 360 had them i'm not sure if it's been you know but that's a ferrariism there that is probably the only part of this car that looks like a ferrari if you're following it at night you'll be like oh is that a ferrari because you see the headlights that's like a signature headlight pattern um i think it was casey mentioned the black thing behind the front wheels this i feel like is one of the worst things on this entire car this i believe this is a real vent it's to relieve pressure from the front wheel wells lots of cars have these i'm sure you can think of lots of cars that have things there um the worst sin of this particular black thing uh well first of all it's they've emphasized it by not making a body color so it stands out more um and i mean i can't tell this is just a trick of the images i think it's not a trick i think it's a real thing um look at in a dead-on side view.

59:37That black vent thing? This podcast is not perpendicular with the ground. It is tilted forward, which means that were you to draw a line from the front of that to the back of that, it would point upwards, not exactly horizontal. In other words, when the car is speeding along the road, what you want are like speed lines that are windswept that are exactly parallel to the ground in the direction of travel. but this thing leads your eye not in the direction of travel but slightly up like it's tilted so that it is equidistant from the front cut line for the front door but that's not what you want to do you want something that makes the car look fast and streamlined you don't want it to be canted forward you want it to be look like the wind has shaped it what a what a terrible mistake like it makes the whole front of the car very awkward like i just feel like going to photoshop taking that and going like move it back rotate it and just that that's the least of this car's problems john it is one of the worst things because this is such a common design element on tons of tons of cars and they found a way to screw it up that i've never seen anyone do before like this this is emphasized a few times in the interviews even from ferrari people and i'm like the ferrari's head designer i forget what his name is it makes the point when he's sitting there with johnny i've one of the interviews that like and don't forget this is the first car you've ever designed it's like we can tell we can don't forget you're not car designers like yeah no i know like good this is a good for it's amazing first try like like they're world-class designers but they're not car designers and this car they've designed doesn't look like it was designed by car designers and the final thing i'll say for the outside is because again we had seen the inside of we're going to talk about the interior a little bit final thing i'll say about the outside is um this is not unprecedented territory a storied sports car brand wants to make an electric vehicle and it's going to be four doors to show an example of how you actually do a good job at this porsche tycon it's from porsche they're known for two-door sports cars they made a four-door electric vehicle and a looks like a porsche b does it does looks really good and c is sporty and fast in a way that ferrari claims they could not accomplish it's like no we couldn't we couldn't make this a sports car like yeah no you totally could have porsche did it it's there like it's amazingly fast it's like just it's it is and granted that the tycon has tiny back seats that are not comparable to this and we'll get to who's going to buy this thing and why right like so i see maybe it didn't fulfill the design brief but if you're wondering can you do this can a storied uh sports car brand make an ev and have it be four-door and have it be sporty and fast and desirable yes they did it like so it just really burns me up that they decided to go the johnny ive direction with this is because johnny ive did not i mean granted that wasn't the goal of this car i think but if you were ferrari like as many of the stories about this pointed out the the one-time ceo ferrari said ferrari will never make an uh an suv also said ferrari will never make an ev he is no longer the ceo of ferrari the new ceo said hell yes we're gonna make both of those things uh and so they are but uh yeah i think the exterior of this it reminds me of Johnny Ive.

1:02:48It also reminds me Johnny Ive is not a car designer. It's not awful, but boy, could it be a lot better.

1:02:54John Siracusa:Eh, it's not great. It's really not great. I would, maybe not awful, but it's right, it's towing the line of awful. It is really freaking bad. Yeah, and MKBHD had a good slam on this where he posted on threads, Ferrari Luce review on autofocus coming soon, and the image he attached to it was a Nissan Leaf. Because it looks kind of like the ferrari but the new saint leaf is kind of ugly but uh that's that's a i mean i really think ferrari is not going to be happy with that because that is not what you want to see what is i mean people have been doing the same thing by showing showing the luce in profile next to a a prius which again i don't think you have the scale right because the prius is way smaller than this car but yeah it doesn't look like a ferrari and people aren't looking at it and going well it doesn't look like a ferrari but boy isn't it sexy no they're not saying that we are sponsored

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1:05:28John Siracusa:That being said, I really like what I've seen of the interior. I feel like this is Johnny Ive doing the things that Johnny Ive should be doing. And interestingly, it's a lot of tactile buttons. There's a lot of physical affordances, which I also love. Well, we did remember, Casey, we did talk about this on the show and we saw physical buttons, but you can reiterate. But I just want to remind you, this is not something we didn't know. Yeah, no, I know. And I mean, it was weird seeing it deconstructed in that San Francisco loft or whatever it was, but seeing it all put together now, I think it looks really great.

1:06:02John Siracusa:I think they've got a lot of smart, good touches. and since we've already talked about it, I don't have too much to add that we didn't already say, but I think this looks really, really good and really, really smart and a good balance of touchscreen versus not. Maybe not perfect, but pretty darn good. I think I have no notes on this interior.

1:06:20Marco Arment:Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe there's some minor things I would quibble with, but I think what this shows is I actually would really like a Johnny Ive interior, you know, physical. I mean, you know, please let somebody else do the software, But like I would love like this actually looks really nice in a lot of ways. And I'm hoping, you know, obviously this is going to make some waves. I don't think this is going to be a big deal. But I think it's going to make some waves in like the car design world. And it's going to make people say, huh, and, you know, discounted or whatever. But some people are going to say, hmm, maybe that's a good idea.

1:06:53Marco Arment:And some people are going to think it's cool. and what I hope happens is that maybe this gets some other car designers some other companies to finally realize hmm maybe physical controls can be cool again right because right now we've gone so far in the other direction and we have all these like totally minimal all screens everything's on the touchscreen vehicles especially in the EV world every time I have to go into a menu to change my fan speed, I'm just like, this is not the right solution to this problem. I'm hoping that maybe this will just tilt the influence a little tiny bit back towards more knobs and buttons for common controls because that is just better.

1:07:44We talked about this whole interior on the past program that hopefully will be in the show notes. I don't have anything particularly new to say about the specifics there. I'll just reiterate a few things, which is that I think going with a rounded rectangle for the instrument cluster the center screen and both aspects of the central like armrest area is a little bit of johnny eye punting i know you like rounded rectangles dude just like come on there's other shapes in the world um seeing the rest of the design like that connects those pieces that we saw disembodied the rest of the design seems fine i think the um i mean this really emphasizes one of my uh complaints from the the earlier episode about the interior and that uh you know really a big central ipad with a handle to point it that's your best idea for the middle thing now that you see where it where it plugs into the the dash of the car it just emphasizes even further because the physical uh switches for like the climate control and stuff setting aside that there are toggle switches that could probably stab people and they have little guards in them for safety reasons but still not a great idea um it makes this whole point of like look you know if the passenger wants to use the screen they can point towards them and the driver wants they can point it towards them i don't want to be fighting over the screen going back and forth one way to solve this problem is to have the climate physical climate controls which i give a thumbs up to to have those physical climate controls in a fixed position in the center console of the car that's equally reachable by the driver and passenger that's what most other well-designed cards do but here they put it on the ipad which means that if you're yanking that ipad back and forth the climate controls are going back and forth so if the driver is looking something on the screen or whatever like navigation because the instrument cluster doesn't really have the same it's not all one screen so if you if you have the big navigation screen up the driver one it's pointed towards them but now the passenger wants to adjust the climate control maybe they want to point it back towards them and now you're fighting over the screen again solve that problem put them in a fixed position they're easier to find they're easier to reach just they don't need to be on the screen but he was so wedded with oh the screen's going to have all the stuff like that the steering wheel is for input and that central screen is for output except for when it's for input but also there's this weird lozenge cavity where you can put stuff in the middle it's like this little cave where you do the phone charging and stuff i just some aspects of this same aspects of interior i complained about before i i continued to complain about the rest of it that i didn't see like um the the door and the interior and the top of the dash and stuff that's all reasonable i don't know i think the door pockets are that reasonable but you know it's fine i like that there's a foot well gap underneath the center console and the rear seat so the center rear seat passenger can fit their feet in there.

1:10:12I don't like that that thing juts out so that the center rear seat person gets it into their shins, but you know, you win some you lose some. The main thing I think about when I see this interior, oh, I forgot the steering wheel that I also complained about that has a flat bottom. I was reminded of this today. Oh, relax. I was watching a review of the Chevy Bolt, the Chevy's$30 ,000 EV. It's like they're, you know, one of the cheapest EVs you can get. Extremely inexpensive for an ev a very small inexpensive car and i was looking at the steering wheel i'm like oh man chevy you didn't you didn't yeah they did it's a chevy bolt has a round steering wheel except it's very bottom they're like you know what it's a little bit flat just like they're just flat enough so that you can just flat enough to be annoying when the wheel slips through your hands like why chevy but i believe chevy if you can't put the zero to 60 in seven seconds thirty thousand dollar ev you can have a round steering wheel please somebody anyway um i promise as someone

1:11:07John Siracusa:with a flat bottom wheel i am not saying that you shouldn't prefer a circle but that's all i'm saying i'm not saying it's terrible i'm just saying like why like why make it a little bit worse why i i get it it's like because race cars have like i understand the lineage but it's become an epidemic people need to come back to round steering wheels you're not especially in this car it's so vast inside it's ridiculous anyway here's what i think this interior will do and i could have said this before with when we saw just the interior by itself but seeing it all together is to emphasize it further um i doubt there will be another car interior including another car interior from ferrari that has the level of fit and finish that this interior has simply because that's that's what johnny i've does and guess what his budget was apparently 650 grand right like we have to keep the car below a million go johnny you will not see in like even in ferraris even a million dollar ferraris just hell look at any of the existing ferraris that are more expensive than this one the switches don't look as good the switches don't feel as good the hardware is not like this thing is made like like a swiss watch because that's what he wanted to do and he had the budget to do it and you will not see that again and this is not a lesson i think car makers will take from this because look at a rolls royce or bentley interior they have nice interiors but their switches are not as good as the switches in this car like like nothing like this is a level of fit and finish for interior mechanical stuff that no one else is going to do they probably shouldn't do it they probably can't do it because who has the budget for this only probably only ferrari in a 650 000 car but this is an important moment in time to say like especially if they don't contract with them to do like future versions of this car or whatever watch ferrari decontent this interior man like watch them just go okay well we don't need the cutouts in the screen we can get this switch a little bit cheaper from a different vendor that stupid glass shift knob we don't need that the thing where the color goes out of the key into that we don't need that like watch it get decontent decontenting on a 650 grand car it will happen because no car maker wants to put this much money into the interior and the only reason it happened here this is a moment in time where a person with massive power was given the reins of this of a company with huge history and they and they said basically make the car for us here's the four wheels the chassis and the battery everything else you can more or less do what you want and he did and his company did it and some of the most talented designers ever to work in the world some of the most talented designers from apple made it an interior where the individual elements are amazing cohesively all together i don't think it's a amazing car interior but it's sure better than a lot of other ones just like in broad strokes but in the individual on the close-up let's zoom in on the switch and feel let's see how like it's it's without equal i don't think i've seen it like again i don't think i've seen a rolls royce or a bentley that has switch gear that is as nice as this the only question i have is i have this question about my pro display xdr stand as well um sometimes in a very expensive apple hardware like my literal one thousand dollar stand that is holding up this monitor it has aluminum rubbing against aluminum as part of the mechanism and i don't think that feels or sounds good it's very precise it's very expensive it's very smooth there's no play in it you know you push it and it stays where you want it to go but it doesn't feel that nice it doesn't feel it's first of all it's not lubricated which is part of it it's not like you know polished steel over polished steel with like oil between it or something it doesn't feel like that it feels a little scrapey and i look at the i look at the uh the air vents which look very cool like you twist this solid you twist this machined aluminum thing and this machined aluminum air vent thing turns which again i think is not the best way to regulate airflow because it is not very granular but it looks cool um and that mechanism as cool as it is i see them using it and i'm like that sounds like my pro display xdr stand and it's not as pleasing as you would think of it i might be wrong because i haven't touched this car and i might just be imagining things but i think aluminum rubbing on aluminum is not that great and johnny apparently disagrees with me um but anyway this interior is you know it's probably singular uh and it's worth like if you ever encounter one of these you should ask the citizen and play with the switches because that is a thing you will never be able to do in any other car uh and that is probably its greatest strength and i'm with marco that i hope other people see this and uh say hey we should have physical controls in our car but it's not as if this is unknown every car maker for the past decade should know yeah people are rebelling against having only touchscreens but the countervailing forces but it's so much cheaper to not do that and screw the users that's exactly it like because

1:15:44Marco Arment:that's that's the reason why tesla started that way and the reason why everyone copied them is because it is cheaper what tesla had to do when they started was figure out how to sell a very very expensive battery in a car that looked like it was as expensive as gas cars you know like they had to like match the price of this very expensive battery to the market of whoever you know whatever car they could fit in, which meant they had to basically sell a$100 ,000 car that mostly had the parts of a$30 ,000 car. And so they had to find a lot of different ways to, you know, some might say cheap out.

1:16:26Marco Arment:They would probably say simplify or reinvent. But they had to do everything else about the car very, very cheaply. And they did. And it worked. Well, look at the rest of the industry. Now everyone is like, oh, the futuristic EVs, now everything should be screens. Everything's on the touchscreen. Look how elegant and minimal and simple it is. Yeah, it's also cheap. What tends to happen in corporate America is whatever is cheaper, they'll find a way to sell it to you with marketing. So they sell it as minimal and futuristic and everything. But the reason is because it's cheaper. Yeah, and to be clear, this interior is not cheap.

1:17:04is the opposite of cheap even their screens are ridiculously expensive because they punch all these holes in them i'm putting these incredibly expensive little controls in it money is no object for this interior oh yeah to your point before marco about like maybe people will see this and start using physical controls i think the aspect where this helps move in that direction is because is is to the extent that this interior is well received by the automotive press and that this car and this car's interior become uh known as cool because you can say all you want like oh users are demanding that you have more physical controls and they'll grudgingly kind of sort of add them back but if this car can help nudge physical controls in the direction of cool that's where it will help i'm not sure it can maybe it can't because a no one will ever see this car and b it's not actually that cool looking the inside looks kind of dorky oh i forgot to mention on the outside my real fear with for this was that it would look like a lot of the uh fan renders what the apple car would look like like just like this big sort of like volkswagen bus lozenge that you can't tell if it goes forward or backwards and luckily it doesn't look like that so it could have been worse but yeah the inside still looks like i'm not a ferrari i'm just like a you know it looks like a fiat interior or a mini interior or something like that like it has such a strange character so i'm not sure if this will advance the cool but the fact that it isn't a ferrari maybe will so maybe people will imitate that a little bit more um the the late the things that will link in here are there's they gave a bunch of they give press uh a tour of the car stationary where they could just walk around and go in it and film stuff although uh mkbhd's uh non-driving tour which we'll link to in the notes he complained the whole time about the stupid uh like uh camera on a gimbal they forced him to use he wasn't allowed to use his own equipment and the stupid camera on the gimbal had a mind of its own and kept looking at the wrong thing love to see him be cranky about having to use their crappy tools and what a dumb decision that was by ferrari to not let him use his own equipment.

1:18:55Yeah, right. There's also the Cleo Abram interview with Johnny Ive and Ferrari's chief designer, Flavio Manzoni.

1:19:02John Siracusa:This was painful, and it was not Cleo's fault. I don't, I think, I watched it after hearing you complain about it, Casey, and I thought it was not as bad as, I mean, Johnny Ive does occasionally go off into the mode where he is saying words that don't mean anything, which is fine. That's his thing, like whatever.

1:19:19Marco Arment:That's most Johnny Ive. But Flavio Manzoni was fun and a little bit spicy. The only thing I'll for, Cleo, Cleo had lots of good questions. I'm not familiar with her work, but she had lots of good questions in this interview. She's also not a car journalist, so kudos for her to doing such a good job. My only note to Cleo is maybe don't include the parts where the people you were interviewing say how wonderful you are. Just let your wonderfulness shine through. You don't need to put the clips of them saying it in the video. You can just save them for yourself.

1:19:43John Siracusa:No, I think the thing that bothered me is, and I don't know if this is a design thing. I don't know if this is an Apple design thing, but the two of them particularly, Johnny, were so high on their own supply. They were just, it was like watching them fart and go, like it was just ridiculous how much they're like, we're changing the world, not a direct quote, but we're changing the world with this. It's amazing. And it's like, I get that this is basically marketing. I get that they're of course going to talk it up, but like cheesy peasy, keep your feet on the ground, fellas. My word, like it's a car.

1:20:19Marco Arment:Johnny Ive has never had a foot on the ground. I thought it wasn't as bad in that regard as some of the other things I've seen from Johnny. For example, the open AI bar thing was worse than this.

1:20:28John Siracusa:Oh, that was the pinnacle of bad. Golly. And I thought Johnny was pretty constrained in what he said. And actually, we'll link to the Cleo Abrams interview. It's 45 minutes long, but it's worth at least scrubbing the parts where they have the interview. One of my favorite parts was when Johnny gets into the car with Cleo, and they're talking to each other about the car. Johnny's in the driver's seat, which I thought was interesting. thing i feel like if you're if if you're doing the interview i guess you let him sit in the driver seat but then you don't get to play with the wheel anyway um here's one of the things he said and this will lead me into the the next segment here which is uh i forgot what the question was the question that was asked was but johnny's response was for some reason just because the power source is electric there is some assumption that the interface should be digital and that's a huge leap and i think it's presumptuous and this that is 100 true we talked about it many times in the show when people are making an ev when car makers are making ev especially when evs were new something goes off in their brain and says well this is an ev it's got to be futurey and weird and we can't just do normal stuff because it's an ev and there's some excuse for that in the early days because you have to get people excited about evs and they damn well better look futurey because why else is someone going to buy it but we're well past that point now so johnny highlights that point which leads me to my ev stupidity checklist which i should formalize incredible i'm obviously cheating because I'm looking at our internal show notes.

1:21:50John Siracusa:We're not going to put all this listing in the external show notes, the ones that you all can see, but I am so excited for this. This is incredible work. Yeah, and this is the thing whenever EVs come up, every car review, this is not just like a thing that every car review will look at and note these things, but I don't see enough people saying, hey, it's no longer okay when car makers make an EV to just give them a pass on the stupid things that they do. Like, it's well past time to say, stop doing these things. They're bad and stupid. And it gets you know it's even worse if your car is six hundred fifty thousand dollar car because then you kind of can't use cost as your excuse so here we go doors we know that on evs you got to screw up the doors they kind of already did that we talked about it with the rear hinge doors like

1:22:28Marco Arment:that is one aspect of screwing it up yeah number the number one thing is like it when when someone a guest approaches the door that you're picking up somewhere will they be able to figure out how to open it yep and so that's the first item exterior door handles are readily accessible yes or no and guess what the uh the uh luce does an okay job i think if someone came up to this car they'd have a decent shot especially in daylight of finding where the handles are because they are centrally located they have cut lines on them so they're obviously handles as the many reviews point out the way they're designed they may collect snow and ice but it's johnny's first car maybe he didn't think about winter see san francisco right maybe he didn't think about snow and ice but it does have handles that you can see with your eyeballs and that are clearly they have to be the only things that are handles because like where else would you so i think i'm giving him a a thumbs up on that one you did it okay thumbs down unfortunately on physical door opening mechanism basically the question is if i find the handle on the car and i pull on it does it physically make the door open that's important for two reasons one software bugs should not cause you not to be able to get into your car how many people with ev owners ev reviews say for some period of time i could not get into my car because even though i pressed the button or pulled the handle or whatever that all that handle does is activate a switch that sends a signal where some software is supposed to unlock the door and it's not doing it for some reason just this week i was watching a review on a current ev that's like this company's like ninth ev i forget which one it was it might have been a volkswagen or something and they were saying at one point they they had to stopped the review because they couldn't open the driver's side door they had the key they had everything everything was fine but when they pulled on the little thing that's supposed to open the door all it was doing is hitting a switch and that switch was not opening the door if you can make it 100 reliable sure go for it but obviously we can't as a society make 100 reliable so therefore i'm going to say make the door opening mechanism either entirely physical from the outside or it's software but then if you pull farther on that very same handle it's physical and the luce fails on this on the exterior and the interior because now we can see what the interior door handles look like and guess what they look like a circular beautifully machined button that's probably incredibly satisfying to hit but is nevertheless a button i don't even know if there's a physical way and for the both the interior and the exterior handles there is also the safety aspect which is if you're trapped in a car and need to get out is there a physical way for you to get out or if someone is trying to get you out of a car from the outside and your car has just crashed is there a physical handle that they can open again physical handles can get stuck to like it's not a guarantee but there have been too many situations where someone is in an accident and either they can't get out or someone can't get to them because of an electronic gremlin or malfunction or whatever whereas physical door handles give you a more fighting chance and it's not because they're inherently superior it's because we've been making physical door handles on cars for what a hundred and something years we've gotten really good at it we've just started making electronic handles for doors and we suck at it and so that's i'm not saying you can never do this but i'm saying have a physical have it like the ones where it's like it's electronic but then if you keep pulling that exact same handle it's physical do that until you can get the electronics 100 that's all i'm saying and speaking of the word affordance which casey uses correctly most of the time but occasionally not i thought i would put the link to the definition in wikipedia here use it in this very episode i think like three or four times every time you use it i'm like wow i'm racking up your percentages you got it right i think one or two-thirds of the time in this episode great yeah affordance according to this wikipedia definition is in design affordance refers to the possible actions that an actor can readily perceive so marco just hit the nail on the head when he said when someone walks up to a car the affordance is can that person readily perceive that they can open this door in other words do they see a handle does something say oh i know when i walk into this car i have to pull on that to open this door that is a a readily perceived thing that lets you know what your possible actions are this is a door i can open one of the examples you always give in these design books is like uh doors that are like you know push pull doors where the push side has a flat plate because like, hey, I know I should push this door because it's got a flat plate and saying, shove the palm of your hand against this plate and you will push.

1:26:56The other side of the door would have a pull handle where it's like a little, you know, hook shaped handle. It's saying, this is not for pushing, grab this handle and pull it. Those are affordances because you look at them and you know what you can do with the door. And that's why when you put someone puts a door in backwards and they have the push plate on the pull side that it confuses people, that's an affordance. This car has exterior affordances and it's door handles. I think if you look on the outside and you see that little part with a little cut line it's clear that it probably wants you to pull it interior no affordance you have to know where the button is

1:27:28Marco Arment:and this drives me this drives everyone nuts who's who's in my car because just like the exterior you also have to figure out how do i get out of this car which i think from like an emergency perspective should be even more obvious yes and not by a small amount like that should be significantly regulated and required to have like a common recognizable fast mechanical mechanism to get out of a car that's incredibly important for safety and you think you wouldn't think you need to legislate because you're like well yeah we've been making door handles for like again 100 years or more like we know how to do it it's a solved problem and to that end there was even a saturday night live sketch where we'll link in the show notes about this very it was a the angle on it was like uh you're out for a night of fun and then you call an uber to take you home and you can't get out of the uber and the driver's like just just push and you're like oh no that's that's the window like and and part of the part of the song lyrics is this was a solved problem like and it's not because like oh old people can't figure out newfangled door handles it's like there have been decades and decades and generation of generation of door handles every generation one after the other my generation my parents generation my grandparents generation all of them with all the cars they ever owned, figuring out how to get out of the car using the handle has not been a problem.

1:28:46Like we solved it. We know how to, we know where to put the handle. We know how to shape them. So people know when they look at them, what they need to do to them. They're mechanical. They open the door. EVs come and everyone loses their minds. And they're like, nope. Can we hide a button somewhere? Guys, guys, this is a solves problem. You're not adding to the wow factor of your car by having electric door popper hidden in some place and then this i think in the backseat this one has the thing where it's like i just said where it's like a physical thing where you pull it up a little bit and opens it and you keep pulling and it's physical but even that is well hidden in the interface it should be way more obvious there should be an affordance for opening a door i don't know why people are forgetting how to do this so i'm going to give them a thumbs down on the interior where they totally screwed up by having a button And the exterior, I give them, I don't know, some sideways because they kind of sort of did.

1:29:35I can't tell if the exterior ones are physical at all. I think they're entirely electronic, but I'm not entirely sure.

1:29:40Marco Arment:And I can just say, like, as an owner of a car with an interior button to open doors, there is nothing more embarrassing than when I have to apologize for the design of my car to every new passenger who is ever in it as they struggle to figure out how to get out of my car because the design is stupid. because they had to go and redesign door handles, not only on the outside, but also on the inside. And continuing on that vein, the charge port. EVs obviously have a charge port. And one thing they love to do is come up with the most ridiculous possible mechanism for revealing the charge port. Really complicated mechanisms where like the door goes in and slides up to a hidden cavity and comes down.

1:30:25It's like, again, this problem has been solved. I know you have electrons and not gasoline, but in the end, it is a hole inside of your car where you stick a thing with a little door over it. We've solved that problem a million times over. Like, and this is the type of thing where, like, I've had physical, like, the thing that goes over the gas, you know, what do you call it? Gas port? I keep, I'm so interested. Yeah, the gas hole.

1:30:49John Siracusa:The gas hole. That's right. That's right. I've had that get stuck on physical mechanisms. It's not like physical mechanisms can't get stuck, but we've had so many years to perfect the design of that mechanism that it's pretty reliable and pretty cheap. But when an EV comes out, they're like, no, we can't have that open physically. It has to be an electric mechanism. And I think through the decades that we've had any kind of electrical mechanism in cars for like some tiny little thing that used to use physically, but we're going to make it move by a motor. Those things are more likely to fail. Now, we've gotten good at some of them.

1:31:22Electric windows and electric seats are close to as reliable as their physical counterparts. Not exactly, but close. But the charge ports that open electronically, especially the ones that have like a capacitive surface that they want you to swipe or something on the outside of the car. A lot of the ones have like, run your finger along this little fin and it will open the charge port. It's like, no, stop. Don't. Don't. Like, make it so you go push in the corner of it and it pops out. Or make it a physical popper. like i know it feels cheaper in your six hundred thousand dollar car but resist uh ferrari fails here at the luce does not have a physical charge port door opening and closing mechanism it's all electronic boy i hope that software never bugs out and i hope that electronic motor and mechanism always works and given the incredible craftsmanship and ferrari's uh car assembly process i do not have a lot of faith uh going to the interior uh on the controls turn signal stocks do not exist in this car another solved problem i know lots of cars have the buttons for turn signals in the steering wheel some people even like it better but i'm going to take the bold brave stance that stocks are in fact the best solution for signaling turns i know there's a debate about like should it turn with the wheel versus should it be in a stationary position it's the same debate for the paddles but the thing about stocks is not only are they always in the same position they're huge and you can hit them in a million different places buttons are small and they're much smaller targets and you can't like you can't just like whack them with your fingertips or throw your hand up like stocks man the turn signal stock is an amazing design from an ergonomic perspective any car that abandons them is either going for the f1 race fantasy which i guess kind of this is what they're going for because formula one cars and other race cars have an increasing amount of controls on the steering wheel because you're a race car driver and you can't take your hands off the wheel but man turn signal stalks they are better than buttons on the steering wheel um and also evs when they do have buttons in the steering wheel it's like all capacitive then we can make just one clean sheet of plastic and everything can be capacitive and haptic and so much thumbs up to the ferrari here because guess what johnny ives like no every one of these buttons is going to cost as much as a hulkswagen and i'm putting a thousand on the steering wheel all right so physical buttons all of that steering wheel good job johnny climate controls physical controls for temperature and fan speed uh car manufacturers refuse to do this now that they've uh they've tasted the sweet sweet honey of uh of touchscreens for everything they're like no like they're always in the same place we just leave them on the screen all the time it's like that's not a physical button dude uh but luce physical controls for temperature and fan speed granted they're dumb uh toggle switches that are poking out of the screen waiting to stab you but they are physical uh and and another one the luce gets right direct physical control for airflow and direction if you want the air to blow to a different place in your car can you reach out to the air vent and point it where you want or do you have to go through the touch screen and look at a 3d model of your car and drag your finger on it one of those things you can do while you're driving without taking your eyes off the road the other one you cannot and is stupid luce gets this right every one of its air fence you grab it with your hand and you point it where you want it to go and you twist it to change the airflow good job johnny glove box i can't believe i have to say this can you open the glove box without using the touch screen i i i know people who aren't car people like what are you talking about you have to use the touch screen to open the glove box how dumb is that i agree so many cars do this tesla did it first i think like so many of these things and everyone's like yeah the glove box should have no way to open it except through the touch screen that's a great idea it's not don't do that luce you can open the glove box without using the touch screen i had to put a thumbs down in this category for them though because i think the way you open the glove box without using the touch screen is by pressing a button that fires an electronic actuator most likely you don't need to do that johnny just design a really cool opening mechanism like a physical opening mechanism

1:35:12Marco Arment:yeah but then you have to have like a locking mechanism too that's why they do it i think it's for the locking yeah no we used to remember the the glove boxes used to have a key lock on it like you can do physical locking things too yeah but does this car even have a key yeah they used to

1:35:24John Siracusa:have actual keys yeah well no it doesn't have like a jiggy jaggy piece of metal i don't believe yeah i'm saying old cars used to have that but anyway if you want to make the glove box lockable then you just have an electronic locking mechanism that can lock it but in the common case it probably should be open it should have a physical switch uh the rear view does the rear view mirror exist again you would think this is not a question you'd have to ask uh but it does the luce has a rear view mirror all right thumbs up what do other evs have they say well this is an ev we don't have a rear view mirror you know we have we have a screen in the place where the rear view mirror should be and you can use that instead some cars going as far as to have this is the next item does the rear window exist and volvo's like we don't need a rear window we've got a camera out the back and where the rear view mirror is we've got a screen so why do we even need that back window and so they just cover it up and the what is that one there's the ex40 or something i don't i know what you're talking about i don't remember which one of the one of the current volvos or maybe it's a pole star i forget which one i think it's a pole star again not 100 maybe it's the pole star four anyway no rear window uh but the luce has a rear view mirror and it has a rear window and actually a reasonably sized rear window for a ferrari so i mean sometimes you can't have it because it's like there's the engine behind you and you're a low-slung car or whatever but they have both those things with thumbs up.

1:36:40And by the way, the reason why screens with current screen technology will never be as good as a rear view mirror is because when you're driving and you're focusing on the cars out in front of you and you glance in your mirror to focus at the cars behind you, a mirror will allow you to have your focal distance that is like 50, you know, 20 yards away. You'll be able to maintain that 20 yards in front of me. And then when I look in the mirror, because it is a mirror reflecting light rays and not a screen, I don't have to focus on the distance from my eyeball to the mirror screen. Because if it was a screen, it would be like, okay, my eyes have to go from 20 yards to three feet, 20 yards to three feet.

1:37:16But because it's an actual mirror, I can say 20 yards in front, and then I can look in the mirror and focus on 20 yards behind me because of the way mirrors work with light and the way screens do not work. So yes, rearview mirrors are superior to screens. And on that same category, side view mirrors exist. Luce's got them. It's got mirrors on the side of the car. and again you may be asking doesn't every car have that not if you're an ev because if you're an ev you're like mirrors are so passe and in fact they impede the airflow let's have tiny pinhole size cameras that we use and then we'll put screens on the interior just inside the interior where where the side view mirrors would be uh that's illegal in the u.s so the u.s models don't get that but everywhere it's legal they're like no yeah the u.s models will get the mirrors but everywhere else gets this stupid thing luce didn't do that they have actual side view mirrors although i have to say i have to give volvo some extra negative bonus points because um i think it's one of their recent models they decided that the uh the side view mirrors rather than having the mirror change angle inside its little thingy you know as you adjust the mirror so you can see where you want they make the entire little pod thing oh gross rotate like to like it like the mirror is fixed in in a little pod and then when you adjust the mirror the whole little pod moves and i'm like volvo the whole point in having the mirror move and not the exterior is so you can wind tunnel test your little stationary pods and make them optimal and then people can adjust the mirrors within that fixed thing by moving the little pod you're changing the aerodynamics of the car based on the height of the driver i don't know what people are doing but anyway luce has side view mirrors so thumbs up and then i have a bonus checklist just for johnny hive one which we knew we knew this because we saw the interior but does the car have cup holders and i feared a johnny i've car who'd be like you shouldn't be drinking in your car you shouldn't have cup holders but this car does indeed have cup holders in fact it has machined aluminum ten thousand dollar cup holders but it does have cup holders so good job johnny i know it was tough for you i bet you probably said what if the car didn't have cup holders but someone said no we cup holders.

1:39:27Two, adjustable headrests. This is the adjustable monitor stand of cars. The Luce does not have adjustable headrest height. I guess it just assumes everyone's the same height. A lot of Ferraris and a lot of sports cars, when you get the sports seats, they don't have an adjustable headrest height. It's just a one-piece seat for, you know, for a lightweight or whatever. And as far as I can tell, the only seat option in the Luce has a non-adjustable headrest height. I couldn't tell if the little cushion slides up and down, but I don't think it does. and as someone who is taller and who has a wife who is shorter i can tell you the adjustable headrests are really important for safety because if my wife adjusts the headrest for her and then i get into the car if i get hit from behind that headrest is going to snap my neck because it's going to meet like the middle at the middle of my neck and not actually stop my head from going back and the same thing with me if i put the headrest where i needed to go her head's going to miss the headrest entirely and like hit the metal poles that are holding it up so adjustable headrest is an important safety consideration, but just like Apple monitors don't have adjustable height stands, this car does not have adjustable headrests.

1:40:28And then finally, I don't know that these are called, but you know, on the little grab handles over the rear doors, they're usually this chintzy little plastic handles that are, you know, that flap down. I mean, you let go of them, they flap back up into the roof. They've been on cars for my entire life. The ones on the Luce are obviously machined aluminum tubes that are, again, probably horrendously expensive, incredibly strong you could probably hang children off of them they're amazing looking but one thing they don't have is that little tiny hook where you hang your dry cleaning uh yeah yeah yeah probably because johnny thought i've got these beautiful aluminum tubes why would i mess them up with a little hook i'll tell you why johnny when you get your dry cleaning where the hell are you gonna hang

1:41:04Marco Arment:it i mean i just hang it from the handle because here's the thing i never do i never get one shirt dry cleaned i always wait until there's like a whole bag of shirts that's waiting to go to the cleaners for three months then i bring them all there at once and so i'm always coming out of the cleaners with like 12 shirts so they never fit on those dumb little hooks anyway so i always just hang them off the whole handle almost every car has them and you can't you can't hang them off the bar thingy because then you have to like twist the hanger so it is perpendicular to the direction of the clothes you know what i mean doesn't matter it's it's a risk i'm willing to take yeah it's probably not a big deal and honestly when you hang clothes there it really reduces the visibility in your car you should probably lay them flat in your trunk but it's interesting that he decided again for purity of design i know every car has these but i don't like it look at these beautiful aluminum tubes so overall a pretty good score on the interior like i said this is this is probably the the most expensive feeling uh most carefully designed car interior that will literally ever exist and it's not to say that it is the best because i have lots of complaints about it but i believe it is an amazing moment in time when someone uh with very particular tastes and tremendous skills was given an unlimited budget to do what they wanted with the car interior and then they came up with is not a great car interior but on the micro level aspects of this will probably never be equaled yeah i mean again i really really

1:42:25John Siracusa:like the interior it is not flawless but i like it a lot from what i can tell uh the exterior though wolf oh and i forgot to mention so who's why does this car exist who's gonna buy it um setting aside uh ferrari's strategy of like we're gonna let someone else design this car and it doesn't look like any of our ferraris like it's clearly that's what they wanted to do and that's what they got but what's going to happen with this car i would imagine at least what they hope is going to happen is as as their lead designer pointed out in a couple of the interviews you know what is porsche's best-selling car it's not the 911 i can tell you that it's their suv the suv is as soon as porsche decided to make an suv that became their best-selling car not by a little bit not like it sells a little bit more than like the 911 like they are basically an suv company that also sells the 911 on the side right uh the per sangue the ferrari suv it's ferrari's best-selling car i mean even even ferrari is not immune to what everybody wants and what everybody wants is not a two-seat sports car even at this price class where you think it doesn't matter for these people they're paying half a million dollars for a car surely they're not gonna want an suv nope they do they want a ferrari suv and that's what they buy and so this car is for the people most people who buy ferraris they have a stat of like who buys ferraris it's people who already own ferraris to the extent that sometimes in fact frequently ferrari will not let you buy one of their cars unless you have bought several of their cars previously so if you want like an f80 you can't just go and buy an f80 they'll be like what other ferraris have you bought from us we'll see if we're going to let you buy this car for two million dollars whatever the hell the f80 costs i forget um so this car say you own a bunch of ferraris but you're not gonna you can't take your like you know sf90 to go get groceries or whatever it's just like it's not convenient there's not a lot of luggage space what if you want to go on a trip what if you want to take people with you what if you just want a driving around town car but you're also horrendously wealthy you probably want something that's kind of like an suv and evs are great too this is that car if you just want a normal car but all your other cars are ferraris and you don't want to get a mercedes or a bmw or whatever, Ferrari now has something for you to buy.

1:44:30And I think fulfilling that purpose, it fits people well. Three adults can go in the backseat and not feel cramped. I'm sure it drives nicely and smoothly, and it is much more comfortable and convenient than any other Ferrari, including their, their, uh, you know, the Purisangwe, the internal combustion SUV. And the interior is going to look impressive to rich people because it is right. And that's who I think who's going to buy this car people who want a four-door EV but also are the type of person who owns Ferrari so here you go and the fact that it doesn't look like any of their sporty cars probably won't be too much of a hindrance as long as they don't think it's ugly because you're just looking for a car to like take your friends to the movies or go run an errand or something and honestly if you get this into color other than red this will probably blend in with the rest of like the Teslas and other stuff that's on the road it certainly won't stand out as much as like a icon would because that looks like a sporty porsche because it is so that's that's what i think this car is for hey you want a normal car ferrari has one of those now we'll see if it becomes their best-selling model or it and the pura sangue together become the best-selling model we'll see how this goes again 650 grand is much more expensive than the pura sangue this is the top of ferrari's price range but i think they felt like we need to have a car in this category because you just can't drive a screaming you know i was gonna say 12 cylinder but they only make i one of those these days.

1:45:52A screaming flat plane crank Ferrari internal combustion engine car every single day. Sometimes you just want to go to the store. This is the car for you if you have a spare$650 ,000.

1:46:04Marco Arment:All right. Thank you to our sponsors this episode, Squarespace and ZocDoc. And thanks to our members who support us directly. You can join us at atp.fm slash join. One of the many perks of membership is ATP Overtime, our weekly bonus topic. This week on Overtime, we're going to be talking about Bamboo, this is the 3D printing company Bamboo's battle with its community There's a lot going on there And we're going to talk about that in overtime You can join and listen at tv.fm slash join Thanks everybody and we'll talk to you Next week Now the show is over They didn't even mean to begin Cause it was accidental Accidental Oh it was accidental

1:46:47John Siracusa:Accidental

1:46:48Marco Arment:John didn't do any research Margo and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental It was accidental And you can find the show notes At ATP.FM And if you're into Mastodon You can follow them At C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M And T-Marco R-M-E-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A It's accidental They didn't mean to Accidental Tech Podcast So long John, I'm so sorry for your loss

1:47:41John Siracusa:Same, we are both very, very sorry Marco can insert taps here uh we we will play taps as you are telling us about what's going on in your video game life yeah i mentioned this uh rectifs where i also talked about this that the past couple of episodes of rectifs i've been talking about playing uh the game marathon from the game developer bungie and having feelings about it and i was like oh guess what sorry sorry marilyn we're gonna be talking about video games again i don't know it's not intentionally turning this into a video game podcast but like it just so happens that things in my life related to video games a lot of stuff has been happening lately um and this most recent one can't say i didn't see it coming but it's still uh i think the whole community is in shock okay so there is a video game franchise called destiny that came out in 2014 that i have been playing since 2014 so i've been playing this game for almost 12 years basically continuously and if you're wondering for perspective declan was born in october of 2014 yeah if you're wondering how can you play one game for 12 years don't you get board of it as i tried to explain to merlin our episode and maybe failed it is what's called a live service game where yeah you buy the game but then they just keep putting out new content for it and they have a way for you to pay for that whether it's like a subscription like world of warcraft or like destiny where you buy expansions or annual passes or whatever but the point is it is like a

1:49:00Marco Arment:living game yeah like minecraft has been around for like a thousand years but they you know like but the version of minecraft that they have today is so much more deluxe and there's been so much stuff added to it compared to where it was you know 15 years ago yeah and it's a little bit easier for like sandbox games like minecraft where it's like you know you can play with legos forever because you can build infinite things and that's what minecraft is like but this is more like a little bit more narrative multiplayer also player versus player and there's a story and stuff so it does require like significant creative content and effort to put out for people to play um and it's had a bumpy history uh destiny one when it came out it was not a critical darling it got middling reviews um had some struggles uh so much so that they came out with destiny 2 in 2017 so that's only three years after the game came out destiny 2 has continued to this day where it's like well are they ever going to do a destiny 3 originally the plan was to do a bunch of sequels and stuff but they basically said destiny 1 i always got some troubles we do some cool stuff now destiny 2 destiny 2 also had troubles out of the gate but they just stuck with it in fact at one point one of the rumors is they wanted to call it destiny infinity which would have been a marathon thing to do or bungee thing to do because they did come out with the game called marathon infinity to signal the end of the original marathon franchise anyway um the health of destiny has been a roller coaster for the whole 12 years that i've been playing it at various times fans have been excited and elated also disappointed they've made changes to the game that people didn't like and then they responded to feedback and like half of playing destiny half of the experience of being a destiny player and destiny fan is the back and forth with the game developer and the game changing the game has changed so much it's changed to marco's point it has changed much more than minecraft has significantly more than minecraft has if you were to look at the original version of destiny 2 versus destiny 2 today you would think are these two different games like fantastically different so much stuff changed in between there and riding that roller coaster has been part of the experience um the analogy i use with merlin i think is a good one is it's kind of like the mcu the marvel cinematic universe where destiny one is like iron man and when they came out with destiny one like this is from bungie the developer of halo so you know that's what people know it from but i know it as an old school mac user from their other games including the original marathon um and i said this is going to be our next franchise we're going to make this franchise called destiny and it was like it's a big deal because halo was was a big deal then that's what everybody knew them from like all the people made halo or make a new game and it's called Destiny, okay?

1:51:36And I forget if this was announced or just strongly implied or maybe it was just read from the business agreements because they made agreements that had this timeline in it. But the whole idea was we're going to put out a game called Destiny and this is going to be a 10-year game. We're going to be developing this game for 10 years, this franchise for 10 years. I think Activision probably thought it was more like Call of Duty, like we're going to keep making Call of Duty games for 15 years. We're just going to keep making them. Whereas Bungie was kind of like we're going to make one game called Destiny and just have it be a live service game for 10 years.

1:52:06Like World of Warcraft has been 20 something years, whatever it is. That was their plan. And they had a story in mind. The story got rebooted right before the release of the first game. So it was kind of a mess. The story continued to be a mess for many years, but eventually somewhere in the middle of that decade, they coalesced about, you know, this is the light and dark saga in Destiny. This is the big story we're telling and every expansion we put out and everything players do, we're progressing that story. And eventually we got to, um avengers infinity war and avengers endgame where essentially the story came to a close like the story of the mcu was like you know thanos the infinity stones the avengers right you know in between the middle there was that there was the first avengers movie it's like now we're bringing everyone together i can't believe we made it to this point we made it guys avengers but was that at the end no because it's like there's still thanos and there's still the infinity stones and there's ups and downs and there's good movies and bad and there's thor the dark world and ant-man and guardians of the galaxy and up and down and all over right but eventually they get to infinity war and end game and when they get the end game spoiler that they fight thanos that that whole thing is resolved okay and then the mcu is like well but we want to keep making these movies everybody's gone all their contracts are up a lot of our characters are dead or you know are old or whatever like the story's over right it's like no no the money machine has to keep going so destiny did that it had its avengers endgame moment it was an expansion called the final shape we all fought the big bad and defeated him end of the 10-year saga of destiny which at that point was like 11 years but they wanted to keep making destiny so they came out with new expansions and the thing is they could never really get everyone to sort of come back and say wait no it's not over come back destiny there's still we're still if the game is still going it's like we all just spent over a decade of our life on the light and darkness saga that is now resolved and i don't know it just seems like like the game is cool like some aspects of the game are better than they've ever been before they even had a star wars expansion which is hard to explain to people it's not like they put luke vader luke skywalker joth vader into the game

1:54:14John Siracusa:can you imagine if marco or i said that we would be just ridiculed for years quickly corrected myself but they did put lightsabers in the game and they did put lots of stuff with star wars flavor in the game very weird this is officially licensed by the way with like lucasfilm and stuff it's not like they did this as an homage this is a 100 official thing that they paid for there was even a star wars expansion and it was cool and i played it but even that couldn't save the franchise the the number of players playing destiny just kept going down and down and you kind of need players to be playing this because one of the ways they make money is by selling cosmetics in the game selling things to change how things look in the game for real money and you also need players to want to buy the next expansion which is the other way they make money which is every once in a while they come out with a new annual pass or a new expansion or whatever and if you look at the graphs that we have from like steam or whatever of destiny's player base it's been going down since 2014 honestly that was near its peak like in 20 maybe 2014 2015 or somewhere around that i don't know what the graph looks like but it's been going down for a long time and it just got to the point where it was going down so much that they just couldn't sustain the game anymore uh bungie itself used to be part of mic well it used to be independent then microsoft bought them then they spun out of microsoft and activision uh they were working with activision on bungee stuff and then sony bought them a couple years ago uh they were independent again in between there anyway point is sony owns them now sony bought them for i don't know like four billion dollars or something like that a couple years ago uh and sony wants to see destiny make money and destiny wasn't doing that and so they've pulled the plug they made an announcement on may 21st that the expansion that we were all waiting for in june for destiny that had already been delayed a month uh that will be the last one that's the last expansion for destiny after that there will be no more destiny no more destiny 2 no more destiny period they said they'll keep the game running uh and as they noted you can play destiny 1 today that's a game that was launched in 2014 and ended in 2017 you can play it right now they've kept the servers running because you need the servers running for this game like it has you know you can't play without servers because again it's a live service game that still exists today so there is some hope that destiny 2 will be playable you know seven years from now we'll see but the point is no more content for destiny destiny is over um i personally even though i have been playing it basically continuously since 2014 most recently after i did the star wars expansion and had done everything i wanted to do I played Ark Raiders then I played Marathon which is also from Bungie which I've really been enjoying so I haven't really been playing Destiny in the past several months I've checked in a few times to do one or two things but I've just been waiting for the June expansion to come but now I know the June expansion is literally the last one they basically dumped everything because they had planned a whole bunch of other expansions throughout the year that they had announced and basically it's like pencils down whatever you have finished for the expansions that were supposed to come out over the next year that's all going into the June expansion so it's got a lot of cool stuff in it including the return of srl sparrow racing league where you take the in-game vehicles and race them it's a something it's feature they had many many years ago that people enjoyed that's coming back so i think they'll probably leave destiny 2 in a pretty good place other than the fact that the uh special ammo economy and crucible is screwed over again just like at the end of destiny 1 i know that's all i'm suddenly code switching and talking to the destiny fans it annoys me that both times they've ended destiny games they mess with the special ammo economy and it's going to be stuck that way forever so that kind of annoys me but anyway destiny is over all good things must come to an end we talked about this with tivo it's been such a big part of my life for all these years but honestly after avengers endgame i felt like you did it like people loved uh the final expansion the final shape it finished the story in a satisfying way just like people love the avengers endgame movie and all that stuff like yes we were all on this ride together with all our friends and we all we did all the things things.

1:58:05And now it's over. So I'm sad. There's been an outpouring of people who are sad about it. A lot of the outpouring has been from people who by their own admission have not played Destiny in years, but they're like, I just assumed it would always be there. And they have such fond memories of it. Penny Arcade, the comic, did a wordless three panel comic just as a tribute to Destiny. They haven't played Destiny in years, but like, man, like now it's kind of like after someone dies, you find out how much really how people really felt about it. and what people are coming out and saying is boy destiny one of the best games of all time like i can't think of many other games like you can think i think i already mentioned them world of warcraft maybe call of duty although and maybe like grand theft auto like franchises that have just been been there for so many years and only i think world of warcraft is directly comparable to destiny 2 because it's been like the same game just with new content which again world of warcraft has changed tremendously from the first version of that game till now but it's kind of one continuous thing and so yeah everyone's out here uh sad the destiny's gone um people were hoping someday there might be a destiny 3 that is if bungie even continues to exist because if marathon doesn't do well maybe bungie's just gone entirely which would be a sad end to an amazing company but still if you know put up uh in the hall of fame the things that uh bungie has accomplished the original marathon series pathways into darkness myth oni these are things that only have meaning to old school mac users then the whole halo series that's where the whole world knows them from just to have something like halo in a game developers you know repertoire is amazing and then destiny after that and marathon is also an amazing game it's just i'm not sure it's going to save the company because it's much more narrow interest so we'll see where this goes it could be the bungee itself disappears and sony just cans everything and destroys the whole studio which would be really sad but maybe you know in seven years time i'll be checking out destiny 3 but in the meantime i just want to salute destiny the most clearly the most and probably the most important video game in my life clearly the game that i have played the most and to that end i looked up my stats i have played the destiny franchise that's destiny one and destiny two for 2210 hours gracious wow which is not a lot in the grand scheme of things the number one player on destiny has played for about 43 000 hours and it goes down from there to like 40 42 999 for like this you know people play this game a lot i'm sure that's nothing compared to the world of warcraft people but just give an example the legend of zelda franchise which i love i'll if i play a zelda game and i 100 percent it i do everything in the game that's like one or 200 hours for a single zelda game but i've played 2200 hours of destiny and i'm gonna play more where the june expansion comes out i'll play it uh but yeah this is a chapter of my life ending even though kind of like ti-vo like i had already ended it myself by essentially barely using ti-vo and mostly using streaming i'm barely playing destiny mostly playing arc raiders and then marathon so i feel like it's you know whatever to every season turn turn whatever whatever the song however the song goes yep nailed it yep it is it's bittersweet but like that's life things come and go and i just i'm thankful that destiny existed because it really was a special game to me and a lot of other people i'm sad to see it go a lot of it is at the foot of like mismanagement by people who are just interested in their next exit or selling to somebody or whatever and i'm mad at those people but like to sustain this amount creative amount of creative output and the amount of money behind it like it's unprecedented again the other comparison i was obviously the mcu which like improbable when iron man came out if you imagine like it's amazing they even made it to avengers let alone that they already made it to avengers end game like just making it to avengers we made these movies which we didn't even know if they were going to do any good and then we finally get to the avengers movie we get to bring them together and that's not even the end and we keep going it's amazing they did that and the lord of the rings movies where they pulled a bunch of people to new zealand for a couple years and made three movies all at once it's amazing that happened may never happen again destiny is like that someday if and when world of warcraft ends it's going to be even bigger outpouring but oh yeah for me destiny was that type of game so r.i.p d2 you're a real one