In short
Stone Crandall, former CMO of Magnolia (Chip and Joanna Gaines), argues that many companies don’t need more marketing or more customers—they need to better manage and convert the customers and leads they already have. He frames marketing as a broad term and says leaders should ask what’s keeping them up at night, then fix the middle of the funnel (nurture, segmentation, conversion), not just acquisition. He criticizes “vanity metrics” like follower counts and engagement dips when they don’t tie to revenue.
Key claims
stop treating marketing like a “magic customer faucet”; focus on converting more of an existing interested pool; increase revenue by spending more and purchasing more frequently; build systems and structure so growth survives shocks like TV ending and COVID.
Notable examples
Sun Bum’s reimagined e-commerce experience built with Wedge and Lever; Magnolia’s shift toward sustainable business after Fixer Upper ended; two brands that had plenty of leads in CRM but gaps in nurturing.
Guests
Stone Crandall (Colorado-born; studied filmmaking; worked at Warren Miller; led digital/social for Sun Bum; later became Magnolia’s CMO; now fractional CMO via haeus; also mentions Uncommon James).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Importance of Existing Customers
0:31 to 1:30
Discussion on the need for brands to focus on current customers rather than just acquiring new ones.
“So stone, your Instagram is filled with you working on Range Rovers pretty regularly to the point where, and one day you made this post where you said, people think I must be working on cars as my job.”
Stone's Passion for Cars
1:30 to 3:54
Stone shares his love for cars and the personal connection to his grandfather.
“Um, and, and I love my kids and my family.”
Father-Son Bonding Through Experiences
3:54 to 7:20
Stone discusses a recent bonding trip with his son and the significance of one-on-one time.
“Um, so it's, it's a chance for me to slow down to, to do something physical, to like, you know, challenge myself in that way to, to, I love creating change.”
Marketing Perspectives from a CMO
7:20 to 11:12
Stone shares his unique views on marketing and what it truly means for brands.
“Because, you know, you've done something really tiny, you know, really small working with like a really small thing called Magnolia, which you have with Joanna Gaines.”
Reassessing Marketing Needs
11:12 to 14:00
Discussion on common misconceptions brands have about needing more customers instead of better engagement.
“row at Magnolia and how you framed that out, how you did that.”
Rethinking Customer Engagement
14:00 to 14:48
Learn why effectively handling existing customers can be more beneficial than acquiring new ones.
“You know, and, and, and, you know, our conversion is this and it is what it is kind of thing.”
Incremental Growth Insights
14:48 to 15:36
Discover how brands can encourage repeat purchases and higher spending from existing customers.
“Yeah, I think so many brands default to just like we need to dump money into ads and just need to get more eyeballs on it.”
Avoiding Vanity Metrics
15:36 to 18:08
Understand the pitfalls of focusing too much on social media metrics and engagement.
“What's, what's that incremental thought process you're having there when you're like, if they can do an incremental more X, Y, or Z, is there any other insight you can give us on that?”
Brand Metrics Overhaul
18:08 to 20:21
Learn why tracking engagement metrics might distract from a brand's core goals.
“We did this post and we lost 100 followers.”
Journey to Magnolia
20:21 to 20:54
Hear the story of how Stone Crandall transitioned to working with Magnolia's CMO.
Show all 26 chapters
From Filmmaking to Marketing
20:54 to 23:25
Explore Stone's background in filmmaking and how it shaped his marketing approach.
“Which in lines now that you'd say that, that tracks with how I wondered how you think.”
The Sun Bum Encounter
23:25 to 25:39
Learn about the pivotal moment that led Stone to work with Sun Bum in marketing.
“Standing in line at a coffee shop was standing behind this gentleman and the coffee shop was next to this old like shop auto shop.”
Reimagining E-Commerce
25:39 to 28:04
Discover how Stone led the development of a new e-commerce strategy for Sun Bum.
“and and I I felt like I was better than I was you know like I had a I don't know I feel like when you're, you're kind of in your, some of your first jobs, you think you've got all your stuff figured out.”
Building an E-commerce Foundation
28:04 to 29:09
Explore how a website redesign validated e-commerce potential.
“there in ensignida it's called wedge and lever okay and we rebuilt it and it really is today if If you go to the site, it's really still basically what we built then.”
Current Thoughts on E-commerce
29:10 to 32:53
Insights on e-commerce opportunities and common pitfalls for small brands.
“into retail like you have to get your product into retail um it was it was kind of when shopify was starting to to to take make some big moves um and so i think it was one of the let me ask you a question.”
Transitioning to Waco
32:54 to 36:38
Discuss the personal and professional reasons for moving to Waco, Texas.
“It was incredible, but very, very small.”
Creating a CMO Role at Magnolia
36:39 to 41:37
How Stone identified the need for a CMO and the process of establishing the role.
“And ultimately, um, it came to, uh, I don't know the exact kind of order of events, but like, um, it, it came to me saying like, I, I, I think I want to lead marketing.”
Pride in Building Systems
41:38 to 42:05
Reflecting on the achievement of establishing sustainable systems for Magnolia.
Building a Sustainable Business Post-TV
42:05 to 43:21
Learn about the challenges of transitioning a business after a popular TV show.
“But there wasn't a lot of, you know, kind of structural systems in place, you know, when some of that stuff would go away.”
Navigating COVID-19 and Career Changes
43:21 to 45:00
Explore how COVID-19 impacted Magnolia and Stone's career decisions.
“COVID was, um, I mean, so much of Magnolia's business was people coming into people coming in.”
Managing Diverse Business Units at Magnolia
45:00 to 46:44
Understand the complexities of overseeing various businesses under Magnolia.
“And at the time at Magnolia, we're overseeing a lot of different businesses.”
Creating Internal Agencies for Efficiency
46:44 to 47:34
Discover how Magnolia built internal systems to enhance efficiency and reduce costs.
“And we have, and they still have, I think to this day, like this kind of internal agency that services all those different businesses.”
Transitioning to Uncommon James
47:34 to 48:25
Learn about Stone's move to Nashville and his new role with Uncommon James.
“I like the way A's and E's look together.”
Fractional CMO: A Dynamic Role
48:25 to 49:55
Explore the responsibilities and challenges of being a fractional CMO.
“And, uh, you know, I'd love to build something that I could kind of step back from.”
Coaching a Successful Niche Brand
49:55 to 52:05
Understand the strategies used to coach a small team on Shopify.
“Like you don't have to explain it really.”
Product Development and Community Focus
52:05 to 53:06
Learn about the importance of product uniqueness and community engagement.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Chris Cruz:When most companies say we need better marketing, Stone Crandall hears something else. Because what they usually mean is, we need more customers. But here's what Stone, former CMO of Magnolia, yes, Chip and Joanna Gaines Magnolia, these companies don't need more people. They need to take care of the ones they already have. And his biggest lesson? Stop treating marketing like a magic customer faucet. For brands willing to slow down and rethink what marketing really is, this one shift can change. everything. Okay. So stone, your Instagram is filled with you working on Range Rovers pretty regularly to the point where, and one day you made this post where you said, people think I must be working on cars as my job.
0:45Chris Cruz:It is not what I do. I do marketing for companies, but you have this obsession with, is it just fixing Range Rovers or is it just in general, just fixing cars. Yeah. Land Rovers. Land Rovers specifically. Same, same, I guess. Same. No. Yeah. I had, I think it's, I think really it means I'm bad at marketing myself. Yeah. Because I, I. Enough of us watch you that we're, I don't know if that's true. Somebody once told me, a very smart woman told me that, that as a marketer, we have to be our own PR agency. And I think she was telling me that because she's like, you need to be better with this. She's subliminal.
1:23Chris Cruz:Like, Hey, I need to, yeah. I spent a lot of time talking about other people's things and not much time talking about mine anyway. So yeah, I love old cars. Um, and, and I love my kids and my family. So yeah, my Instagram is basically old cars. I mean, but you're, how many of you fixed up? I knowing you for, I've known you for like almost two years now or a year and a half. And in that time span, I feel like I've seen you in three different cars. One time I pulled up to get coffee with you and you were in a Hummer. Like I was like, what is going on? Yeah. What was going on? That was my wife asked the same question about that.
1:53Came home with that. And she's like, what is, what's going on? Are you in a midlife crisis?
1:57Chris Cruz:Is it like a midlife crisis? Like, is it just, is it just like, I like to do this because it takes my mind off of things? Yeah. Fully. I don't, I don't golf. I wish I did golf. Me too. I don't have enough patience. Yeah. So, uh, my grandfather was a mechanic in the Navy. uh he lived across the street from me my entire life okay um and so he had a dirt bike in his garage that didn't run and when i was probably 11 or 12 years old i said can i drive the dirt bike he said it doesn't run i said well what if we got it running he said well if you got it running then you can drive it oh so we started working on on on that when we were younger and then um we bought a couple cars kind of leading up to my 16th birthday i said i want to i want to work with you on something that maybe can become what a memory yeah he salty salty navy guy yeah um i mean just so much of who i am is from him um so anyway i love cars so yeah i i i love to i secretly want all of your cars like every time you make one and then fix one and then you sell it i'm just like god i wanted that car yeah well yeah so i've done a lot of car i mean 50 60 cars probably since i was 15 or so but so for for i mean not to get too far off topic but like classic cars to me are so much more there's so much more to them than than like a car i don't know to me there's one side of me that looks at it and it's like it's just a possession it's a thing you know don't get too wrapped up in it yeah who cares the other side of me is like it's this one it is this opportunity for me to to slow down for myself yeah and to do things physical with my hands i spend so much time at the computer yeah so much time on screens yeah and so when i can step out in the garage and get dirty and get greasy and do things that I'm not sure if I can do.
3:47Right. Like I'm, I'm not a mechanic.
3:49Chris Cruz:Yeah. That's some of your videos. So you're like, I think I'm going to try to do this. You're like, it worked. Yeah. And a lot of times it doesn't work like four times. And then the fifth time it works. Yeah. Um, so it's, it's a chance for me to slow down to, to do something physical, to like, you know, challenge myself in that way to, to, I love creating change. So in the marketing world, which I'm sure we'll get to like, Like it's the same in cars. Like I can, I can buy an old project that has a hundred different problems with it and looks like it's lived a tired, tired life. And like, I can invest myself into it and change it.
4:23And I love to see that like physical and, and, and operational change. Two, I get to work with my kids just the same way my grandpa worked with me. I get to work with them. Oh, that's cool. And then I don't know.
4:37Chris Cruz:Have any of them taken to it and they enjoy it with you? Or are they all kind of like endure it? Yeah, they go in like seasons and it depends on what I'm doing. But right now I have a three-year-old and he's like the most into it. He's like, we're working, we call each other worker guys and he's got like his worker guy. I know it is like, and so he's like all in, but he's also in that phase where it's like, you know, just dad and mom or everything. Okay. Before we get into marketing, I have one more question because you did something so rad the other day that I saw on Instagram. I was like, dude, this is it.
5:09Chris Cruz:You had taken your 11 year old. Is that right? He's 12, 12 turning 13, like in a week. You, you did like a, you did like a guy's trip back to where you used to live before you moved out here. Is that right? Yeah. Well, yeah. Two, two, two moves before, before Waco, before Waco, you were living in, what is that? Encinitas? Encinitas. Okay. So you, what did you do? You did like a trip with him for what? yeah inspired by author john tyson okay yeah yeah um yeah so the idea is like he's 12 turning 13 and just entering into young young manhood i guess and so the thought is um kind of bring him back to his roots and show him where we lived and where we ate and where we played oh that's cool took him out surfing and um what a trip it was sweet yeah and then i you know i had a question for him and I'm like where if you you know if you could add one thing to this what would you do like what's your what do you want to do and he's he's a Star Wars geek so he's like I want to go to Star Wars land and Disneyland oh my gosh so we went to Disneyland from like 7 a.m to midnight and just love it just love it just ran it so I love it it was sweet it was a good time for like we have four kids so you you don't get much one-on-one time with anybody and it's so unique when you get a kid one-on-one yeah because they feel different they feel like my son when i get my when i have a nine-year-old and when i bring him alone he's like a different person totally yeah and it's so it's so special to see that and nox is his name the oldest and he is more reserved by nature like our third born is is is absolutely just like mr personality and you know but nox kind of in in the in in hectic situations kind of steps back and it's just pretty quiet and reserved and so oftentimes in our family because it's just usually constant chaos yeah he's you know he's not making a ruckus so he's you know he's just kind of doing his thing but in that it's kind of hard because then he doesn't get a lot of that attention so it's sweet when you get to like sit with them specifically pour attention on them i love it so the i just want to color in the pages of who you are because i think all of those fabrics make up a little bit about how you see marketing and Because, you know, you've done something really tiny, you know, really small working with like a really small thing called Magnolia, which you have with Joanna Gaines.
7:30Chris Cruz:And, you know, this other side thing, you know, that people might know about, like, I don't know, Sunbum. You know, literally we were talking about it. Somebody put Sunbum on their kid before they came in and we interviewed them. So you've worked with some incredible brands on a CMO level, fractional level, helping them launch products. if we started first before we get into magnolia because the journey of you becoming the cmo at magnolia is a is an amazing one i want to hear about yeah when you think marketing when someone says marketing what is it how do you look at it you fill in the blank what what are your thoughts on like off the cuff like hey this is what i think about when i think about marketing it's like doesn't need to be a textbook answer but like what is the thoughts that you have about it That feels like a loaded question, but I, I, I, when, when someone says marketing, I usually assume we're on a diff, we're on a different page.
8:20Like I usually, I love it.
8:21Chris Cruz:You're like, we're don't say the same thing. Well, no, I just usually, I usually start with the assumption that we're not probably thinking the same thing. Wow. Um, because I, I, I just think marketing is this big, broad kind of general term that people use for a variety of things. And then they're usually probably talking about something very specific, like a very small part of marketing, but they use this like marketing term. Okay. So what do you do? Like, what is your thought process? If someone said that to you, what happens next? Well, somebody is like, Oh, we need to work on our marketing.
8:57I usually start to ask questions about like, what, you know, why do you say that? What is what it what is what's keeping you up at night that's making you think that thought like what is it that's a stressor in your life that makes you think oh if we just had marketing then that wouldn't be a stress um and oftentimes i think a lot of people just look at it way too narrow oh i love it yeah don't you think i mean i love it because you it's like talking to a
9:27Chris Cruz:specialist, right? Who sees it with such a distinct view. That's like, I think you're right. I think people broad stroke marketing and especially because there's social media marketing or there's the, the, how do I do my email campaigns or how do I do promotional marketing and get people in the door into my space? Like there is such a wide breadth to it, but also there's these unique craftsmen inside of it, which I think you kind of are where I love that you said we, I usually don't think we agree because I would have probably thought that about you because of the way that you do your life, the way that you talk when I talk with you, you don't first strike me as the quintessential marketer.
10:06Chris Cruz:Like you don't because you, you, you almost have this, um, dare I say, like philosophical, like approach is story driven, like without going in, like I use a story framework. Like it feels like you have a little bit of a different vantage point. I don't know if that's fair to say regarding like you don't first go to data you have a it feels like you have you have that i've heard you talk about pulling that lever and knowing when you need to talk about those kind of metrics but i also have heard you talk about it in a way that feels a little bit deeper and you mentioned earlier like a change that you want to see people make or something like that yeah well i mean i just i um i i think when people say marketing they're either talking about something very, very specific and narrow, or they're talking about the very, very broad.
10:55And I think brands typically think they either need to be, they, they, they need one thing or they need everything. And the reality is they, they probably need something in the middle.
11:09Chris Cruz:What's something recently that you were like, Hey, we're going to jump into your, your CMO row at Magnolia and how you framed that out, how you did that. But what's something recently where someone came to you were marketing and you came to a solution? What was the solution? You were like, this is what we worked on and this is what we did when we were trying to think through the problem solving of marketing for them. Is there something recently that comes to your mind? Yeah. Well, two different brands I've worked with, I guess just as examples of where I think they were framing it incorrectly.
11:39Yeah. Love it. Do it. You know, they were, you know, I won't name specific names, but like there's this challenge of, of people will immediately go to if maybe if, if their, their businesses is stagnant or in a decline from a revenue perspective and they say, oh, we just need more, we need more customers. Yeah. Um, but for some businesses, yeah, we just, we just need more people. We just need more, we need to reach more people. And, and, and so marketing can look like that sometimes like, yeah, we do just, we'd need to reach more people. But for these two brands specifically, which operate kind of on more of a lead to convert type thing, I look at what they have going on and it's like, oh, you actually have a lot of people.
12:33You have more than you can handle people.
12:36Chris Cruz:So they have more people in their ecosystem, in their CRM. Okay. Um, yeah. And this is, this is a brand I worked with, uh, uh, many, many years ago. And then a brand I've worked with recently is the same two totally different businesses, but same problem. And so we then actually look at like the experience of, of, of how they're, they're, um, how do I say like being nurtured into a possible, uh, conversion. Yeah. And there's just so many gaps in that process. And so marketing then becomes this very different thing they didn't think it was, which is, you know, how do we communicate to our existing database that maybe, you know, is, was, you know, if they didn't immediately answer the first email or answer the first call or, or immediately respond to the first text, how do we like nurture that person through?
13:30How do we, you know, segment these folks off to kind of the different reasons or needs
13:36Chris Cruz:So you're going like you went for what I'm hearing you say is you're going, they said marketing. You looked in going, you don't need more people in your door. You need to handle the people you have already in your door, quote unquote, better. And by figuring out why they're dropping off and then segmenting them into different buckets. Yeah. And maybe we're getting too nuanced. No, it's good. But I think, you know, they look at as we just need more people. Yeah. You know, and, and, and, you know, our conversion is this and it is what it is kind of thing. And I looked at it and said, no, we have plenty of people, but we need to handle the people we have better, more uniquely, more specifically.
14:15We need to be able to look. Did they resist you? Did they resist you when you said that? Not really.
14:20Chris Cruz:Because I love that. I love that. They're like, we need more people. You're like, no, you have more than enough. You need to handle them better. I think if we could pull that phrase out right there alone, you have enough people listening. You just need to handle them better. Is it also another kind of different way that you take marketing? I'm like, so good. It's so good. Well, it's going to be so much easier and less expensive for them to do that than to just continually try to acquire more and more people. Yeah, I think so many brands default to just like we need to dump money into ads and just need to get more eyeballs on it.
14:55And when you actually look at, um, you know, what that business needs to increase revenue significantly in a lot of cases, it's actually not that they don't necessarily need more people or eyeballs. They just need to work with the people they have coming, uh, in a more, more considered way. You know, like if you get those, the people you have coming to, to convert it to even incrementally higher level and spend a little bit more than they are spending now you get you can get some big you know multipliers in revenue at the end of the day
15:31Chris Cruz:and are you and this is without going into the names because i want to respect that is this is this also where you're seeing people go like reoccurring or second time buyers or are they are are they dealing with people buying another of the same thing or are we talking like hey how do we get them to buy a new product in that? What's, what's that incremental thought process you're having there when you're like, if they can do an incremental more X, Y, or Z, is there any other insight you can give us on that? Uh, in terms of like, if brands are thinking about that, like when you're like, when you say like, if they could get them to make an incremental more from that existing group, what do you like?
16:10I'm basically going, if the person doesn't understand
16:13Chris Cruz:what you're saying there. How do they look at their business and go, oh, I've been looking at that wrong. I've been looking at not repeat customers. I've not been looking at or like, what's a way that they need to think about that if they haven't been thinking like that? Yeah. Well, yeah, I think you look at your existing pool and if you can get them to spend more. Yeah, yeah. and purchase more frequently. Yeah. You know, really it's, it's, it's, you have, you have an interested party of people. Yeah. You have folks that have shown interest in what you're doing. Can you convert more of them? Yeah.
16:55Can you get them to spend more? Can you get them to purchase more frequently? And that, that's kind of it really. I love the simplicity of it.
17:03Chris Cruz:I love it. Cause you're like, this is pretty basic. Yeah. This is what it is. how do you ever have people be like that just feels too brass tacks just like just get people to buy more like do you ever have like resistance well oftentimes where uh and this is getting into you know less of kind of the brand sort of things and more of just yeah like the nuts and bolts yeah that's great like hey i mean honestly at the end of the day every company even if they're you know a very like an emotional story led brand like they they need to increase revenue or not not going to exist so yeah sometimes yeah it's like let's just cut to the chase right yeah we need to make more money yeah um so i don't know i think um a lot of uh a lot of a lot of companies over complicate what they're they they maybe somebody said hey you need to be you need to lean lean into data you need to be a data-led company you need to whatever so they start having dashboards and spreadsheets and weekly meetings where they're tracking all this data.
18:05But so much of this is like vanity metrics, right? They're like, oh, we lost 100. We did this post and we lost 100 followers. I love that you call it vanity metrics. It's so good. Well, because it's just.
18:15Chris Cruz:It's good, man. I love it. I love it. And some people. Shoot those sacred cows. I love it. Totally. Somebody would disagree with me on that. I'm sure. And I think that's fine. Please disagree with me on that. Yeah. They're allowed to. But I'll sit in meetings and somebody will say, you know, hey, we are. or, you know, we lost some followers or, you know, our social media engagement dipped a little bit. And I'm like, I don't care. Literally, I don't care. Why don't you care? Like, what's in your frame of mind that you're like, I don't care? Because what are you thinking? Like, what's going back in the back of your mind to that?
18:48Chris Cruz:You're like, I don't care. I just don't, I don't think it matters. Like, I don't think anybody really fully understands what's going on in the back end of social media and all of that. And I think there's obviously, you know i've worked with some really really talented content creators yeah um and folks that have um been incredibly successful on social media and have have created kind of formulas for what that could kind of look like um but it's also always changing and i don't think it's it's it is is not like the silver bullet to to success that's it and yeah um even if you have this like massive social media following it doesn't necessarily translate into business success now I'd say like as a business would you rather have a really vibrant social media following or not I'd say yes of course you want a really vibrant social media following but um I don't think it's like anything that somebody should like live and die by yeah and in the in the in the scheme of things if if if it's the only thing you're you're tracking and if you're spending a lot of time in a meeting talking about you know why maybe that post lost 14 followers i'm like i just think you're wasting your time love it you know because people are going to come and go i've even unfollowed some some brands or things that i've followed that yeah that i really really love but i just you know it's like i'm kind of in a different phase in my life and and maybe i'll come back to them maybe i don't but like yeah i don't know yeah it's not getting lost in those metrics okay so so here i'm gonna i'm gonna take us what feels like a hard left or something let's do it magnolia chip and joanna gains your cmo how do you get there and then when you it's like a dog who catches a car what did you do when you got there like how was that process like because and when did you come in like i i just want you kind of like to tell that story a little bit more yeah yeah yeah uh born and raised in colorado okay um love being in the mountains um studied I lead filmmaking actually.
20:54Oh wow.
20:55Chris Cruz:Which in lines now that you'd say that, that tracks with how I wondered how you think. Yeah. I think like a filmmaker, I guess. Out of college, worked for a film company called Warren Miller. Makes like adventure ski movies. Oh gosh, come on. Yeah, which was pretty cool. So that was like my dream job. Honestly, I thought that was my dream. So immediately I interned with them out of college, got a job with them. immediately was sent up to um utah and worked with a cinematographer up there named tom day and i was a pa like in high alpine mountains and i was working with a group of professional skiers and with tom day and we were um up like above alta basically and um i was loading cameras and kind of working one step ahead of them and they would shoot and then i would set up cameras and break down cameras and whatever anyway so that was like i thought i was living my my dream yeah um there was a really tragic accident that happened um on on a shoot that i was on and it scared me a lot uh so i quit okay my wife was living in texas she was finishing her last year at texas a &m there's a guy there that needed a roommate so i was like i'm moving i'm gonna pack it up i became a substitute teacher in college station texas uh for a hot minute because i needed a job while my wife well then girlfriend finished up school um anyway um fast forward um we moved we got married moved to boulder uh i was i started in marketing um with a church, like a local church in Boulder.
22:39Cool. And we both were like just discontent and wanted to move, felt like there was more outside of Colorado. Moved to Southern California, wanted to live in Encinitas.
22:51Chris Cruz:Okay. Yeah. Who doesn't want to live in Encinitas? My gosh. So I started working in the surf industry there, doing kind of freelance content creation, marketing digital marketing um was standing in line for coffee at a coffee shop okay and this already sounds like it's going to be so interesting yeah this this honestly was the moment that my life shifted uh that sounds dramatic and i've never actually said that but i but i really think it is honestly professionally yeah i love it um this was my like professional moment i had no idea Wow. Standing in line at a coffee shop was standing behind this gentleman and the coffee shop was next to this old like shop auto shop.
23:44OK. The auto shop was being turned into an office like they were painting it and kind of, you know, cleaning it up and make it into this like cool industrial office. And I said to this guy standing in front of me, I was like, do you know what's going on? Like what's going in there? and he said oh it's my it's actually my business we're we're we're moving our headquarters here it's like oh what is it he's like it's sun bum it's like and i was like oh cool i think i've heard of that and he's like yeah we're we're based in coco beach but we're going to open a west coast office here i was like that's cool i said you know i'm stone he said i'm tom so it's tom rinks and tom rinks is i don't know if y 'all have he's got a um he's got some stuff you can um um how i built.
24:24He did how I built this episode. You should listen to. Um, but he is a, a brilliant, brilliant brand builder. Um, and he's got a really cool story. Gosh. And, um, so Tom and I started a conversation.
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24:38Chris Cruz:So you and Tom were in line at coffee and you randomly asked him what's going on. It's just like, I was a dumb, dumb. And I was like, what is that? And he's like, that's my business. Um, I love it so much. And so we got to talking and I was telling him about kind of what I was doing in the surf world. And, um, he was like, why don't you come? Would you ever come work with us at sunbomb? And I was like, well, I don't know. Yeah. So, um, this happened. He asked you that while you were in line. Yeah. I don't know if it's like when we were in line, but it was within the same probably week or so. Um, and so it was a really fun time.
25:13So I, I, I moved into sunbomb full time and honestly got to work. You know, I, I was an employee with everybody else but but I I um really got to spend a lot of time with Tom and and um kind of mentor with him um and I didn't realize it at the time and I've told Tom this afterwards uh since just like I totally took for granted all that I was learning from him I was like young and dumb and and I I felt like I was better than I was you know like I had a I don't know I feel like when you're, you're kind of in your, some of your first jobs, you think you've got all your stuff figured out. Looking back, I'm like, I had nothing figured out, but he was really gracious with me.
25:58Um, and, uh, so I learned a ton from him just about, uh, about brand building, honestly about building.
26:05Chris Cruz:What was your role there at Sunbow at that time? So I was, uh, I like led digital marketing. Okay. Um, really small company at the time. We grew a lot while I was there and obviously they've been acquired yeah since um so i led all things kind of digital and social okay um which for a brand under tom you know is it was a high high stress kind of role for me at the time because um you know it's i don't know just kind of representing how a brand like that comes to life in the digital world is unique and it's also it was like right before a lot of those um you know one of the things that i worked with him on was pitching like hey i think we should launch um a new e-com environment for sun bum and i remember so it didn't exist they had e-com but it was um it was very much like uh it was it wasn't really a part of the business it was not really considered and it represented almost no revenue and i said i think we need to reimagine like what this digital environment is why did you think that like what was some of the stuff going on in your mind were you seeing stuff i just was um i don't know i just felt like i i felt like it wasn't something we should we should be proud of the way it existed in the moment like i didn't i didn't like like i didn't i don't know i didn't want to like share it with people like yeah i get like where do you work and i didn't want to send them the website because i was like oh i don't know really um but also you know it's like right when we're starting to see shifts where people were starting to buy this is like really where people are starting to buy from amazon they weren't really buying d2c necessarily and there was somebody said like hey i don't think people buy sunscreen online like i remember a conversation where somebody said i don't think i don't think that's a thing people buy online like it's like buying toilet paper online is a quote where i heard um and i remember thinking like i think i don't know i think we're i think they will i think from a brand like us i think they will so anyway so you pushed for a new reimagining of the e-commerce reimagined e-com we imagine that whole digital experience we worked with an agency out there in ensignida it's called wedge and lever okay and we rebuilt it and it really is today if If you go to the site, it's really still basically what we built then.
28:12Chris Cruz:And did it, did, what was that? So you built it with these guys, you get it going. Did you see where, did you feel validated? Like how did, like, what was that? I'm like, I'm just asking like, personally, I'm like, you take yourself on a whim. You put a risk. You're like, Hey, I think we need to reimagine the website. Not super proud of it. Yeah. Got to put it out. Did it pay off? Yeah. Yes, it did. I mean, uh, uh, e-comm is, you know, when I left was, it was a, was a significant part of the business. And I think it was probably, I'm assuming it wasn't obviously in those conversations, but a decent part of that acquisition that happened.
28:45Chris Cruz:So the e-commerce expression ends up being like ready for how people are going to purchase in the future. It becomes even an advantage to the acquisition process. But for you, it validated the idea that people will buy this type of thing online. Like that concept, you're like. yeah i mean it was kind of like that that front end of where like d to c brands were emerging you know i'm saying like um i think mostly before that it's like well you need to get your product into retail like you have to get your product into retail um it was it was kind of when shopify was starting to to to take make some big moves um and so i think it was one of the let me ask you a question.
29:31Okay.
29:32Chris Cruz:And then we'll do, I want to dive into when you moved from Encinitas to was Waco after that, after Encinitas. Okay. If we were just to take a freeze frame here for a second, e-commerce, what's your thoughts right now? When, when you talk to somebody about e-commerce, do you have any like things you're like, Hey, this is what I think about it. This is my, this couple of my thoughts about e-commerce and how people should be thinking about it. Yeah. Like small brands. Yeah. Anything. Yeah. Yeah. If you're, if you, if that's easier for you to think like that brand, a smaller brand should be, how do they, how should they be thinking about that yeah i think there's crazy amounts of opportunity to i mean you could take yourself from nothing to an e-com business yeah in in a day yeah um which i think is insane and amazing and incredible yeah um i think where people typically go wrong is they assume if I just do that, then I'll be successful.
30:27Yeah. And so I don't know, two thoughts. One is, and I've said this before, like on social, like nobody cares that you exist. Yes. And that's a really hard thought for a business owner or a brand. Yeah.
30:48Chris Cruz:It's hard to hear that. It's hard to hear for somebody to say, nobody cares about your business. Yeah. And that's dramatic. I get what you're saying because it's true. Yeah.
30:59And a lot of folks do that. We're going to call it out.
31:05Chris Cruz:We're going to call out. Somebody is mowing the lawn outside our office right now. And so we're calling out the weed whacker that I think is right here by our window. So, okay, we can keep going as it goes because I think it will pass here in a minute. But landscaping is happening right now. Yeah. so they they assume that everyone loves their brand but you're like they don't care yeah it's just true i mean i i'm with you on that yeah it's that hard reality where like i i can be really really passionate about something and launch this business yeah and i think a lot of folks make this false assumption that that passion that i feel will translate yeah just translate through the air to other people and it might to some folks yeah um but a lot of folks that just they just don't know they don't they don't they don't feel it you know i don't know but in that you're going you're saying okay i can launch this e-commerce business in a day which is incredible yeah insane second part you're going people don't care like about it so then you're the third part then goes you got to get people to care is that right that likes leap there yeah well i mean i think it's like you need to you need to have them see it and understand it and care about it yeah see understanding i don't know i'm shooting from the hip here like i haven't said this out loud before but like see, understand, care.
32:19Yeah. Right now, Stone Cranos framework for marketing is coming up. Yeah. Like we're doing this fun. See, understand, care, need, maybe. That's the fourth. Yeah. And I think brands will maybe try to address one of those things. Thinking one of those things will solve the whole thing. Oh, they just see us. They'll care, want, and need or whatever. That's good.
32:42Chris Cruz:So you moved from Encinitas to Waco for the opportunity or what, what, how did that go? Let's dive in there. Yeah. Um, so we had our third baby in Encinitas living in a very small house on the beach. It was incredible, but very, very small. Yeah. Um, and we had this kind of, um, just kind of family freak out of like, this is so expensive. we have three kids we don't live near my family lives in Colorado my wife's family lives in Texas we had this like moment of like kind of just family panic yeah um so you we also had three babies under I don't know how old they were all very small and very needy and so I think we just had this kind of like oh my gosh my wife and I and so we said okay we need to move um we don't want to go back to Colorado even though we love Colorado um let's go to Texas so let's start so explore texas and so uh we're mostly looking at like austin okay dallas you know but then i was like well we we at night we would watch fixed repper okay so you're aware of them and i was aware of them yeah so i was like let's just see like what's going on i had been to waco once before in my life i went to a common coffee shop there called common grounds when my wife was in school at texas ain't him so i that's about all i knew yeah okay it's like chip and joe and common grounds coffee but um so i was like i'll just go to the magnolia website and then they had a job listing for um head of digital experience or something like that and part of that job was like you'll oversee all of our e-com and you know digital businesses and i was like oh that's what i do yeah this is my wheelhouse i'll just i'll apply you know and i just can't you never think like it's a real thing anyway um so i yeah i actually got a phone call back and they were like hey we want you to come out to waco and let's talk about it and do an interview and so um so then you interviewed you get the job there right away at that same role so um yeah i mean i we i came back home and then you know got another phone call um Um, yeah.
34:56And, and so, um, I was like, I think we need to go to Waco and I, I don't remember, you know, it's an internal family thing. And then we decided like, yeah. So you move from the beach to middle that literally they call it Waco is like, they call it HOT heart of Texas. Yeah. So we were going from, you know, we were.
35:15Chris Cruz:I mean the dream city in California, Encinitas. Dream. Yeah. To the middle of Texas, even joanna's dad his name is jerry okay um i had an interview with him and he said i'm gonna i'm i am going to convince you not to move here he was like my job right now in this conversation is to is to give you a harsh reality of like what it's like to live in waco right the middle of texas from ensinitas yeah and he's like if you still if your eyes wide open and still want to come out here great but he you know he was like i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna give you the real kind of picture of what it's like here.
35:49And part of me was like, I like it even, I like y 'all even more. Yeah. You're like, this is it. Because who does that? Yeah.
35:54Chris Cruz:So, and then you, so you came onto that. Was that the first role you came onto? It was that role or? Yeah. Okay. So stepped into this, this kind of head of digital role. Um, and then I just started asking a lot of questions like, you know, when you get into a new, new company, you're just trying to get your feet wet. You're trying to understand the rhythms and you're trying to understand kind of what we've done, what we have done um my i mean i was responsible for for you know kind of all revenue and the experience of all the ways that magnolia came to life did yeah which is a lot of responsibility um and so i start asking questions and seeing who owns this who who does this if i want to do this Who, who, who would, who would I kind of go to?
36:39What would it look like? And ultimately, um, it came to, uh, I don't know the exact kind of order of events, but like, um, it, it came to me saying like, I, I, I think I want to lead marketing. How did you get there?
37:01Chris Cruz:Like, like in your brain, like what was like, you're asking who's on this, who's on this, as soon as I was owning this and you're like, I think so. You need somebody in this space. So at the time, Magnolia was full of a lot of really talented people, but it was very fragmented and siloed. Yeah. Funny enough, the thing is called the silo, right? Yeah. Well, and the marketing team at Magnolia was really a creative production team at the time. Like it was a team of writers and graphic designers and really, really talented talented people and it was led by a woman who was wonderful but didn't necessarily want to like oversee marketing she really wanted to oversee um kind of creative vision okay um and so i i came to a gentleman named doug mcnamee who's the president of magnolia at the time and to chip and joe and i said hey i see a vision for a role that sits over this really a cmo role and orchestrates all of this together because I'm running into some issues where this doesn't work because this team isn't working with this team.
38:07Can you give us an example
38:08Chris Cruz:of something that wasn't working? So when someone's going, I don't have a CMO in my organization and I just realized that I need that because the pain point stone is highlighting I have. What was something? Well, a lot of it was like, I would say, okay, well, I want to run, for our e-com business, I want to run an ad. Maybe it's a digital ad. Maybe it's a print ad. I want to do something. So, um, my first question is like, can I, can I do that? And in there it was like, well, I don't know who makes that decision. I'm like, I don't know. Do we make this? And then it was like, do we have the budget for it?
38:41And it was like, Oh, I don't, I don't know who, who makes the budget to say, is there a budget? And then it's like, who designs it? Well, the creative team will design it, but who's giving them the creative. It's, so it was kind of a lot of those like, Oh, we need to take a step back and we need to have someone who is looking holistically at um the uh the team structure the communication structure uh the budget framework um you know and what we need to understand if what the you know kind of right and left hand are doing they're they're both supporting the same thing and so i don't know if that answers your question but it just was really me saying well you know there's these 10 things that we need to pull this off who who who's going be the person that pulled trigger on does that yeah and there wasn't really anybody that was like oh yeah that's my work yes you know nobody could give you a clear like oh this is how we do
39:32Chris Cruz:it and so you started and so you have this conversation with chip diana and you said that and doug yeah um and what did they say when you when you offered and so i i kind of said i this is what i think it looks like and they said okay you know interesting yeah i see that they're like yes yeah and so they they said well yeah i mean if we're going to create a cmo role because there wasn't really a cmo role at the time okay which is interesting you know in that business particularly yeah it's such a critical thing now but um they said that's great but we're gonna actually create the role and we're gonna go through a full you know onboarding hiring type you know search you're like i've i've identified a need here you go i think i can do it they're like we think the need is there.
40:17Chris Cruz:We want to check every option. Yeah. Yeah, they did. And so that was both humbling. I'm like, um, and also I'm like, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. I would, I, if I was y 'all, I would do the same thing, but I said, Hey, I want my, I want to have my name in the hat. Like I want to be, I, I, I was bolder than I typically am. I'm not, I'm typically not quite that bold. And I'm like, no, I want to be in the running for it. And so I interviewed it, interviewed for it and went through the same processes. I don't know how many other people. Oh gosh. Wow. And, um, and I, I got the role the day i got the role i got an email from chip that i have printed out now and the email says congratulations don't screw it up chip i love it and uh that's how i felt literally i felt like um it's one thing to say you they need something it's another thing for them to agree and say there's a need and then a whole whole new thing to say and i'm gonna be the solution to that that's i'm like yeah that's it yeah oh shoot yeah like can i can i can i can i smoke what i sold you know kind of thing yeah absolutely like there's a difference between being like all right i can i can articulate it now i gotta actually do it and that's that's the different thing what are you most proud of at your time at magnolia like something you did that you're like or part of that you're like this or not directly involved in that you're like i was so proud of this like my time there i think it's kind of what i just described where um i came into it when there wasn't a lot of of systems yeah um honestly the first week i started there i didn't they you know they stopped film being the show okay obviously we built a television network and they started filming it again yeah but my first week there i had a meeting with joanna and she said hey you should probably know this is our last season of fixer upper it was season five okay and so she said in our meeting i we need you to help build a sustainable business without without us you know without us on tv yeah the tv show is going to go away and we need this business to continue and so that was like oh oh wow that's you know yeah that's a big thing and obviously it's not just on me it was a big team of folks all collectively doing great work together but But the thing I think I'm most proud of is like the systems we built to kind of step back and say, okay, like they have built an incredible business on a lot of momentum, like just this kind of viral momentum.
42:44But there wasn't a lot of, you know, kind of structural systems in place, you know, when some of that stuff would go away. Right. Yeah. um you know kind of like a jet engine but maybe without the structure or wings or whatever and so we built we built some really great systems and so when you've you've gone into other places
43:07Chris Cruz:from what what was the transition like you how long ago did you leave uh cm with the cm role like what was that you started doing what after that after magnolia yeah yeah um we came into COVID. Okay. Got it. COVID was, um, I mean, so much of Magnolia's business was people coming into people coming in. So yeah, COVID is really Disneyland and Waco. You're like, you're going. Yeah. And so a lot, a lot of those businesses, you know, during COVID, just like everywhere else in the world, you know, had to shut down for a season. Um, at that time, um, yeah, this other, you know uh uncommon james oh yeah okay started a conversation they had reached out to me um and uh i i obviously i've heard of nashville yeah but that that's no pretty much lit it but like no joke that's pretty much it like i've heard of nashville nashville to me was like a place to me it was just like country music radio kind of yeah and i love country music so but um but but i really had no desire to come here like even yeah fun or something like that um but it was intriguing and i start looking things up and i'm like oh it's actually kind of pretty there and i don't know maybe this could be something my wife was like no we're not really like we're staying in waco um we're not gonna uproot you know um things right now but um i just kind of had this like i don't know why i was like i think this is something we should do yeah and um anyway she got on board it was definitely like did you like were you like i'm did you sense an end to your time at magnolia and then you were like this opportunity or like what was what was a transition like for a role of that nature to be in such a big thing and be like i'm gonna be done yeah i don't know and to this day i don't you don't have an answer for that i don't have peace about that actually wow i don't i don't feel like my time at magnolia was done oh wow um um the whole covet thing was just wonky dude it's and so no you're it's fair man i think it was like the the the business was like we just had to draw so much back and then it was like i don't know it was it was really stressful yeah i think my role went from like stressful to like crazy stressful right because you had to make magic happen in a time where no one's buying anything yeah and And so I think I made a decision out of that.
45:33Oh, wow. And at the time at Magnolia, we're overseeing a lot of different businesses. I mean, 14, 15 different businesses. I don't know how many it was. But from retail to real estate.
45:44Chris Cruz:And you were over not just digital experience at that point. When you were CMO, you were over retail as well, marketing for all of that as well? Yeah, everything from the bakery to the coffee shop to the restaurant to the silos to the real estate business to all of that, which is a lot. and so i think when that all cranked up and the stress level hit like yeah threat level 100 yeah i was like i need just personally to like i got it slow it yeah and so the thought of like being over one business yeah it was like oh that sounds like things how did you like i didn't know it was all of those elements were also tied into this i thought it was a section of magnolia inside of this how did you have how did you orchestrate all of those interactions like did you have well That's part of like, man, it was.
46:28Chris Cruz:Did you have people in place? Like, what were you doing? Or were you just going into each one yourself? Well, we built basically like an internal agency. Okay. So. At Magnolia, like that was servicing all of these different. Servicing all of those things. Okay. So they really all did function as like their own business. Okay. And we have, and they still have, I think to this day, like this kind of internal agency that services all those different businesses. Okay. But that was one of the things that I was running up against. Yeah. Okay. And we brought everything in. from like web dev and design and all of that was brought internal.
47:00When I came in, a lot of that was all external agencies. And so we were able to bring it in, create systems and processes and save a lot of money in the process of, you know, I think, I think in a business, there's a great time when you should outsource your talent. Right. Because, um, but then Magnolia was at a size where it's like, okay, now actually it's time to bring it all in so we can move quicker. Yeah. Um, there was just change, big changes needed to happen every day. Yeah. And so it just didn't work as well.
47:28Chris Cruz:The speed was too demanding for you to have to go through the processes of working with outside agencies and all that stuff. Wow. And so you moved to Nashville. You start working with Uncommon James. Now for you, you have your boutique. How do you pronounce this? Is that house? Is that how you say it? It is a made-up word. I call it haeus. It looks like house, H-A-E-U-S. I like the way A's and E's look together. it feels kind of scandinavian to me and you know when you're like trying to think about names like i was just like one is like i need to find a name that doesn't exist yeah that i can get like the url yeah yeah the social handles and all the things um so now you're so you you do that what is the main thing you're focusing on now like when you're helping brands like what is the main thing you're coming in and doing as an agency and it's so different with everybody honestly and that's one of the challenges for me.
48:25And, uh, you know, I'd love to build something that I could kind of step back from. I think ultimately that's probably where I've gone wrong in a lot of this, like just to be really humble or transparent. Um, but I, I, I function as like a fractional CMO. Okay. Um, and so just the same way if I was to go into one company as a CMO or another company is a full-time CMO. It's just that role is going to look different depending on what that company is. So yeah, right now I work with, you know, kind of brands all over the country, but the role in one brand might be like, Hey, we're built, we're, you know, my primary kind of focus is building an internal team with another brand.
49:06It might be, you know, leading an existing team with another brand. It might be, you know, I work with some that are really there. I work with one a company right now that is incredibly small, but they have had a lot of success on Shopify. Okay. And so it's like three people in the company. And so I'm doing a more kind of like, that one's just kind of scrappy, right? And we're just doing, kind of doing everything. Okay.
49:36Chris Cruz:If you had to build the team, and with this, if you had to build a team right now for that, if you had to expand that three person team, it's having a ton of success on Shopify. What is this thing you're doing right now to help that team go to the next place? Yeah. And with this. what would be my yeah what are you like what are you coaching that team of three that's having tons of success in shopify what are you coaching that team up or thinking about to get that team yeah well the team of three is two founders and me oh gosh so there's no team but they created a product that uh is for a niche community um that has just had it you know are you about to talk about the product do you care well they make uh yeah it's um they make a unique cup honestly um is this the the gas cap yeah yeah the the mug that is in the shape of a gas can thing yeah like an oil filter yes that's the thing that's what i'm looking for yeah um and so what's unique about them is they created a product that that didn't exist really um and they did it really really well it looks so cool really quality product yeah and then they focused on in a really niche community that like when they, what's unique about that product is when, when someone in that community sees it, they get it.
50:52Like you don't have to explain it really. It's like an instant emotional attachment that turns into a need. And it's at a price point where they can say, oh, I don't even have to think about it, right? Purchase. So.
51:05Chris Cruz:What's your next stage with them then? So yeah, I mean, I think for their, for their world, like the next stage, if I was to invest in who's the next person, it would be probably a creative designer. I think brands that have creative needs, kind of unending creative needs or growing brands. I got to sit in with, you ever heard of Ollie Vitamins? Yes. Ollie, they make their Target. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was at a venture capital lunch and I got to sit next to the guy who started all the vitamins and he said that to me I said, you know, uh, you know y 'all are growing really quickly. What's what's You know, who are you hiring?
51:50Mm-hmm the most of to scale with your growth and he's like designers design. We can't yeah, you know It's just there's It's an unending so anyway, I would I would hire a designer. That'd be my first step second step would be probably someone in performance marketing okay um and um those would be my first two i guess oh love it what's the name of that
52:15Chris Cruz:brand again because i i the gas can or the oil can well yeah it's called clutch gear clutch gear that i saw you post about i was like that looks so i'm not a car guys yeah so i'm like i don't really have that immediate thing to it but i saw it i was like that looks really cool yeah that's well done that's it that is an example of what we talked about earlier where they you know obviously they had a lot of r d right they had to go to these factories and create these aluminum vessels right but the but the the the after the product exists which and i wasn't in that they you know tyler and trevor who did that um you know ton of ton of time and effort and money and energy but the like website to launch and that you know uh it's just you know gangbusters they they've been incredibly successful and so that's like an area where it's like yeah you can go launch on and you know they didn't have to go to all these different retail stores and try to sell their sell their vision they just went straight to the community yeah that they built it for so so good well stone thanks for hanging out with me man i appreciate it yeah dude
From the publisher
In this episode of Anatomy of a Brand, we sit down with Stone Crandall, a marketer with an unconventional path that led him to leading marketing for one of America’s most recognized lifestyle brands, Magnolia (yes, that Chip & Joanna Gaines).Stone shares:- How his love for classic cars shapes his marketing philosophy- The unexpected coffee shop conversation that changed his career- Why most brands don’t need more customers—they need to better serve the ones they have- His inside perspective on scaling Magnolia’s marketing, launching e-commerce, and building internal creative teams- The mindset shifts small and large brands need to succeed in today’s marketWhether you’re a founder, marketer, or just love behind-the-scenes brand stories, this conversation is full of practical wisdom, candid lessons, and a few great laughs.Timestamps:00:00 – Intro: Range Rovers, Hummers, and the joy of fixing classic cars04:09 – Bonding with family through hands-on projects06:52 – Defining marketing: why most people have it wrong10:33 – Why you don’t need more customers—you need to serve existing ones better14:15 – The problem with chasing vanity metrics19:53 – Landing at Magnolia: from Encinitas to Waco23:01 – A coffee shop encounter that led to working at Sun Bum26:17 – Reimagining e-commerce and proving skeptics wrong30:45 – Nobody cares about your brand (and why that’s okay)32:14 – Moving to Waco and stepping into Magnolia’s digital leadership37:24 – Identifying the need for a CMO role and building the case40:23 – Taking the CMO seat: “Don’t screw it up”41:42 – Building systems to sustain Magnolia without Fixer Upper44:31 – Navigating COVID and transitioning out of Magnolia46:35 – Building an internal agency to support multiple businesses47:56 – Current work as a fractional CMO and lessons from niche DTC brands50:00 – Scaling a small Shopify brand: first hires and growth priorities52:09 – Closing thoughts