What It Means To Build Against The Algorithm | Episode 40 w/ Aaron Underwood.

0:00Chris Cruz:Aaron Underwood builds brand identities, the kind of work that looks like it was made before computers even existed. He calls his studio unto dust, and I wanted to know why. I'm kind of allergic to clever design. You know, like the FedEx logo, it is clever. It is clever. And when you see it, you're like, whoa. But to me, like, I've never, that's not my North Star. He spends his days extracting other people's stories. He asks questions until he finds the thing they forgot about themselves. I feel like this weird, like, I don't feel like a designer and I don't feel like an artist. To me, like, it's because I'm solving a problem.

0:36Chris Cruz:There's a hidden cost to making things beautiful. And the cost is that to do it, honestly, you can't separate the work from who you are. And you have to wrestle against the algorithm. This is episode 40 of Anatomy of a Brand. I'm Chris Cruz. And this is my conversation with brand identity designer, Aaron Underwood. I say this in the nicest possible way I can say this. your work feels like it existed 80 years ago. I love it. I love it. Yes. It's like when I see your work, there's almost such a rawness and vintage feel to it that it feels like someone's not showing me something that was made last month.

1:15It's crazy. That's the goal. That's the goal, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I look back a lot for inspiration for projects we're doing today.

1:25Chris Cruz:Yeah. And for me, it's like a lot about, it's just human human made back then and i'm just inspired by that and it has like this tactile feel that it was before computers and it was it just felt human made and i love that work so that's all i kind of okay what i love about your work before you and i have ever even had conversations when i was just following you and then we started dming me back and forth but like what i saw was these moments where you would throw kind of these mood boards together which were very different than when i would see moods mood board gets created mood boards get created by other designers even myself when i was creating mood boards you made these almost like you went treasure hunted vintage stuff and made these mood boards like is that was that did you make that as like a i know i'm making content or was that like a this is how i think and how i act like what was the logic behind that yeah so like all the mood boards that you see on social media that we've you know i put out um those are all also going to the clients okay so and and that started so it never was like a content idea yeah they took off on yeah social yeah and they've been i mean they're incredible to engage with they're so fun yeah they're fun yeah i mean i think when i started out doing them i intentionally didn't include other designers work on them i felt weird about that like hey we want to make lettering like this other designer yeah so i was intentionally like trying to go a layer further a layer deeper of like where did they get their inspiration and so that's kind of how it like really started of finding like going through this like sourcing of older stuff yeah and even now we're like i'm starting to put together like ownership of some of this stuff so we've been kind of my wife and i have been hunting for like actual vintage items that we can include in these mood boards and kind of create this catalog but yeah the kind of it's like you could take your whole moon board and make a coffee table book from it yeah yeah yeah they're all so engaging to look at they're like thanks this could literally sit on my table and i would have just so much fun swiping through it i just love that type of stuff it's just like so inspiring to me like i've spent a lot of times going through two vintage stores and all that and so i think that type of stuff is just like informed me as a designer now and so yeah i mean i i love it the clients love it it's like really fun for them to see this mood board and get excited about their project.

3:48Chris Cruz:All right. One of the things I saw you do that I thought was really interesting and speaks to some of the handcraftedness that you talk about is the free print club. Yeah. What is the free print club? Yeah, dude. So it was just a slow season of work. And so, and I was like, how do I kind of engage people in a way that feels personal and once again, human? And so we just created this print club where we created a print. We, you know, send it their way with a note and just like trying to connect outside of social media trying to create these connections. And, you know, work has come from that. Like where I've sent them to people that are starting businesses and they get this physical item that, you know, shows them the work in person.

4:32And so, yeah, it really just started.

4:33Chris Cruz:So what are the cart? Like what is the thing you actually send them? Yeah, so we've designed a print. Are they the same ones every time? Yeah, we're going to switch it up pretty soon here because we've done like a round of what we got made. But yeah, and then we'll send them to people that we already have on our list. But yeah, it was really just like a marketing strategy of like, how can we connect in person with these people and show them our work, create kind of an email list from that. But it's also like when I look at the process, because what you do really great on social is you leverage process making, you show behind the scenes on things and not on even the traditional sense of like, hey, here's me designing a logo.

5:09Chris Cruz:It's these beautiful kind of almost like vignettes of moments of like little like snapshots into it. I've seen your snapshot into the free card club or the free print club. And you're, you're doing stuff by hand. You're using actual stamps and stuff too. Yeah. I mean, we're like, you know, on the note card, we're hand stamping stuff. It's, I just, I like that connection, that human process. I don't want to remove it from design. And so I try to incorporate that as much. How does your brain, okay. How do you wrestle with what you, because I know that you, in your work, you talk about depth and character, not just aesthetics.

5:45Chris Cruz:So you're like, there's a, there's a core part of what you do that has this like, it's, it's, it's one thing to call you a visual identity designer. Yes. But also there's this craftsman about you that I look at what you do and I say, okay, he has this intentionality, this depth, your words about depth and character, not just aesthetic. You have to wrestle or, or maybe not i don't know do you wrestle with the fact that this takes longer oh for sure yeah it does yeah i mean it it's not quick it's not easy there's a lot of yeah just hand process to it which takes longer um and the clients that come to me for that they understand that process they want that they want that yeah you're attracting that exactly and we um you know i don't talk to the client get get my money get the contract and then disappear for like eight weeks like i've intentionally brought them into the process what does that look like yeah so they're seeing sketches along the way they're never there's never like a moment where they're not involved in seeing stuff and approving stuff along we don't go through like here's a big presentation approve it edits all that they get to like come with us and edit with us and like see sketches and so the process you see on social media is also kind of a process that they get to experience as well because like my favorite design experiences have always been with friends and family sitting at a table doing it together and so i was like how can i how can we do that for clients that live all over the world yeah what okay so if you had to describe what you mean by you create work that carries depth and character, not just aesthetics.

7:24Chris Cruz:What does that mean? Yeah, that's a great question. I'm kind of allergic to clever design. Like, you know, like the FedEx logo, it is clever. It is clever. And when you see it, you're like, whoa. But to me, that's not my North Star. I can't do it. As a designer, I can't do that. I'm not clever. I'm much more inspired by the arts and so depth to me is story and it is you know I'm working on a project right now for a restaurant we spent a lot of time learning the backstory of their family and their family history to design a logo and we're creating this thing that like their grandmother would have created and so we're like looking at story and we're looking at art and that's what's inspiring our projects more than like how how simple can we get this how clever can we get this can we can we like make something that's hidden in it that's like that's not inspiring to me i'm looking at what moves yeah it doesn't move me it to me i see the fedex logo and i'm like yeah that's clever it doesn't emotionally move me and i want to create identities that emotionally move their audience and their customer that's what that's that's the goal for me let's go yeah i I love that.

8:49So then in this process, you're obviously, you're extracting stories from people.

8:55Chris Cruz:You're doing that. But what I want to dive into is it seems like you're quite a reflective individual. As you've gone through this, like as you start to, you build identities for other people. You ask questions a lot of them. What has this process revealed about you that you're like, whoa, I didn't anticipate this. As I started to get into this where I'm asking brands questions to build their brand, and you're reflecting on brands, what has that taught you about you in that process? That's a great question. I mean, still learning. I think every time you work on a project and you work with a new client or customer, you're absolutely learning something new about yourself and about your approach.

9:37I think doing this, I have learned kind of, man, that's a great question. I'm trying to think. No, that's great. It's sitting with the thought.

9:48Chris Cruz:I'm like, I'm happy to go that layer because it feels like when I see your work, again, the emotive response you want comes from a layer of depth that I'm like, okay, he, I don't want to say it like this. Like you, you, you're not willing to just take quick answers. And I'm like, somebody who doesn't take quick answers probably has a way of looking at his own life without quick answers. that is reflective in some level that every time he's working with a client, he's probably learning something about himself. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't like finding quick answers because they're not really long-lasting answers.

10:30And for a client, and even for life, I'm looking to make a decision for the client, for myself, that solves a problem for the long term. And so I think that's another thing that the clever, logos, all that, like it does fade quicker than focusing on the artistry. I mean, looking back at some of these older logos and stuff, they just, they're still cool. Like, and I still think that they're relevant. And so, um, yeah, I think, um, I, I appreciate making decisions that like are true and are long lasting and not, and not something you're going to flip on.

11:11Chris Cruz:So you're like, there's, There's a part of what you're saying that is when you see a visual identity that almost is like an afterthought to the brand almost. Not that it wasn't thought through. Not that the people who developed the FedEx logo weren't thinking through it. Afterthought isn't the right word. You're looking at it and you're saying like, okay, the priority they have for this logo is not the same priority I have for a logo. Yeah. And so there's some kind of storytelling that is deeper than the cleverness, like you said. There's a layer there. Now, when you go into that process, what about that do you have to like restrict in yourself?

11:48Like when you're going,

11:50Chris Cruz:I got to say no to something internally to not go down that route. Or does it naturally flow for you? I don't know. No, I mean, I think over time it's naturally, I've naturally created, you know, these guardrails that, you know, I know what I'm not good at. I know what I'm not going to do. Clients also know FedEx is never going to come to me. You know what I mean? Like Apple is never going to come to me for a logo or brand identity because that's not really what they're looking for. They need that simplicity. And the FedEx logo is perfect. It represents them. Businesses that come to me are typically small businesses, restaurants, cafes.

12:25Do you have to ever tell them, like, I'm not the right fit? Yeah, for sure. And that's, like, one of the most freeing things. It's really hard in the moment. Like, especially, you know, you want that project. It feels validating. You want that income. And I've taken on the wrong projects. and they never end up well for them or for myself.

12:44Chris Cruz:In that taking on a wrong project, what did that feel like? It just feels like swimming upstream. It just feels like it's not true to what's inspiring to me, what I want to be creating. And I think they feel that also. They know when a designer is just doing the job to satisfy the request. And I think most of my clients are coming to me because they want a piece of my imagination. my creativity. Is there anything you ask them to help clarify whether they're the right fit for you? Is there anything that you do? Or is it more just already from looking at what you create, the craft that you have, and it kind of already becomes a natural filter?

13:22Chris Cruz:I know that. Like, I wouldn't think to come to you and go, hey, create the FedEx logo. I'd come to you going, like, hey, we're going to create this raw, vintage, retro-inspired brand that's going to have this sense of, like I said, it's been around for 80 years, and we want it to feel like it can last another 80 yep i'm gonna come to you for something like that it's gonna have more raw edges not completely clean lined everything yeah i mean because of the the work that's out there i think that's a natural filter um and i would encourage designers that are just getting started to like focus in create like create that filter create what you're good at put it out there and then that will be the filter for clients i'm not getting at this point i'm not getting a ton requests that don't align yeah because they see the work i'm creating it all kind of fits in this box.

14:07But early on, yeah, I mean, there are questions you just kind of, you have to ask what's, what, one of the questions I ask is like, what brands inspire you? That one will get a lot of clarity on like, if they're mentioning FedEx, if they're mentioning Nike, Apple, you know, like, okay, this is probably not it. But you know, there's, there's brands out there that they do mention.

14:26Chris Cruz:It takes a lot of self-control, like you said, to say no to a project because you are not the right fit, but you know, the income is there. Yeah. I mean, it's, it, I just feel like you get burned on the other end. It's like, you know, yes, it's money in the bank, but what, at what cost? And I think that, you know, I'm not looking for, I don't know. You have to be at a place where you can say no to projects. And as a young designer, you kind of, you want to say yes to everything and you probably should. At this point, I know that it's going to cost me more to do the wrong project yeah and it's just not enjoyable for them it's not enjoyable for me and it's not worth it yeah yeah the in in this process when you've you're helping people figure out who they are even like you're like i'm look i'm asking questions it's bringing clarity to them like when we work with brands we know that it's it's always fascinating when we work with a brand and whether we're doing visual identity content or just strategy with them we know that this process always gives them clarity on who they are yeah that they weren't even anticipating because you're asking question after question like well i don't know that answer yeah you're like great let's get that answer we need that before we can move forward on this but i want to turn the table on you what has what has surprised you about yourself as you become this person like where your your journey of being a visual identity designer that has a distinct taste and style and a flair to them that is known and understood what has surprised you about the work you've done like about yourself like in that process?

15:54Yeah, I mean, I think I mentioned it, like I'm drawn to kind of that emotional identity and visual identities, the ones that kind of like leave you with a feeling after you see them. I personally am not a very emotional guy. Like I'm not, you know what I mean? Like, so like, it's interesting that like, you know, that is what I'm drawn to and inspired by and create. I think the brand identities that we create are, they have this emotional aspect to them. If you ask my family or my wife, I'm not. I'm not that person. So that's been interesting to that has come out of this and learning about the clients and learning their story.

16:32I'm not that person. So it's in there, I guess. I guess it's in there. The water, the curtain is underneath the surface, but it is there.

16:40Chris Cruz:That's interesting. So is there a part of you you've had to let go to build this studio? Is there a part of you that you've had to go, I can't be this person anymore? In internal work, whether it's a mindset about yourself or whatever? Is there something you had to let go to build a studio? I think being a perfectionist is something I have had to let go because I naturally am a perfectionist. And when you're building brand identities and anything visual, I don't think perfection exists. The sooner you get to that conclusion, the happier you will be. And so, yeah, I think that's something I've definitely had to let go of.

17:20and you'll still experience clients and I do it myself where I'm trying to like just trying

17:23Chris Cruz:trying to keep perfecting it and what are they when you feel like when if I had to ask you as perfection being the thing you had to let go of what did perfection mean to you if you were to achieve it like if you were to actually have gotten perfection what did that actually mean to you yeah I mean that's the like do you ever do you ever get there and like I don't think I you know I think that's why you have to give it up is because you're just constantly wanting but it It means something in our eyes. Like, I get what you're saying. I get the wrestle of, like, perfection is not a real thing, but there's something that's driving me, that's making me feel like there's something beyond what I'm currently, like, there's some kind of tug.

18:02And I'm wondering, like, was there something you realized?

18:05Chris Cruz:You're like, actually, it's driving this unhealthy thing inside of me. And I don't know what that is, maybe. I don't know. But the quest for perfection doesn't come out of nowhere. Yeah. Yeah, I think you have to, you know, for me, what I've done is I kind of defined it differently now. Like, are we creating the perfect branded entity that's accepted by the client and that tells their story as best as we can? You know, I don't know what, you know, I think early on I was chasing perfection. I would deliver the project and then I would still want to like tweak it because I just was seeing things that like I thought I could make better.

18:40But you start doing that and you realize you're not always making it better. And so, yeah, I don't know what it is. I mean, I think we're all in life as humans.

18:51Chris Cruz:We're always trying to be the best we can and chase that perfection. And I think I've come, in a personal way, I've come that that doesn't exist here. And, yeah, it's better just to do that. If you had to look at yourself from a kid to where you are now, you have kids, you're married with kids. If you had to look at your journey to where you are now, like, what would you have said now back to that kid who's like probably drawing in the living room. Like what would you have said to him now if you could speak to him? Yeah, that's a great question. I would, you know, I would say it, I say it to my kids and I would say it to myself is just keep playing, like keep imagining.

19:29For me, like I grew up in a, what I would call a creative family. My mom was very crafty and, you know, was always sewing or making something. My dad was like a true like creative artist and he was kind of in the design world a little bit. And so I had all these like tools and people around me that, you know, were doing things and creating things. And I was as well. And you get to a certain point and you get to a certain age and I don't know what it is where maybe that's the perfectionism. You're like, this isn't good enough. You're like,

19:59Chris Cruz:I mean my son wrestles when he's drawing all the time. That's why I ask it because there's a part of me that knows that in myself. And I watch it in my son and his own frustrations with what he's making. Yeah. I mean, I think embrace that mess, embrace that like imperfection and keep trying um that's you know i think my kids are really into drawing and stuff right now my my youngest is starting to draw people and they're so cute and they're and i just never want him to like keep doing that and for a while he was just like so against drawing because he's like hey it's not good enough it's not oh yeah it's not like his older brother you know what i mean and that comparison and i think if i were just yeah i'm telling my younger self i think just keep playing keep drawing keep imagining there's i spent so i I was homeschooled.

20:40I spent so much time dreaming up these businesses and ideas and products. And like, that's, I just don't stop that. And I haven't stopped that. And that's why I'm still doing what you do. I mean, I get to dream up these identities and get to come next to like founders and business owners and dream up what this is going to be for them. And like, we got to do that together. And what do you find that founders and entrepreneurs that you work with struggle with in the process

21:06Chris Cruz:you help them with? Is there anything that founders and entrepreneurs struggle with when they work with a visual designer like you? Yeah, I mean, they're so in it. They're in the weeds that they like, you know, I think sometimes they forget the story. They get lost in that because they're running everything. They're, you know, they're having to choose tableware for the restaurant and make food choices and handle cost. And they kind of forget like the origin of where, you know, oh, my grandparents loved food. we sat at the table eating those memories those moments meant something they forget that and so when we can kind of ask those questions to help remind them that's when you kind of see them light up of like you know why they started in the beginning there's a there's a great deal of remembering that you offer which is interesting because a lot of your work is like a callback yeah yeah it's like there's this there's this clear like remembering of times past and bringing and present and you almost do that with these brands anyway when you're working with them it's really fascinating if we were to remember your journey and go back further was there someone who validated you in a way that you're like man i'm really grateful for that that's yeah i mean there's multiple people for sure um like i said my dad was in the design industry and we had the computers and we had adobe and all that you know and i had my stolen copy of adobe photoshop and illustrator from my dad yes yes perfect yes cd you know my dad gave me my first one and it was definitely stolen from somewhere i have no idea where he got it from but it was definitely stolen yes and i mean i i would just go on there and like mess around oh yeah and break it like oh yeah adobe is confusing oh it is all of a sudden buttons disappeared though wait where did that thing go that i was using before exactly and that's like i think that's one of the best ways to learn is go in there with boldness mess it up and then learn how to fix it and how to get the the menu back and how to like type on a path like all that yeah it's like and it's hard and it's like and i think my you know my dad would help me fix the problems and that he didn't have to say anything but that was validation enough to know be like hey like keep playing keep imagining there's something here um my wife you know was it always a journey of like i'm gonna be doing this work oh no definitely not i i had no clue like like i i just i liked creating but i didn't know what that looked like.

23:24Chris Cruz:Okay. Um, and I did the whole college route for a little bit and like, that wasn't it. And, um, you know, I don't, I think there was a moment like, you know, in my early twenties where I was like, you know, I really noticed a lot is like brands. I, I, I, they stick out to me. Like, okay. Pause there. Yeah. Brands stick out to you, but you're on this journey of reflection and stuff's not working. Yeah. Like you're, you're, you're, you're, are you trying things and be like, it just not, I'm not feeling the energy there. Like what, What was that decision process like to go to like, to get to this point where you even reflect on, I like brands.

23:58Yeah, it was failing. It was like failing. So like college, like failing college was like, okay, that's not the route.

24:04Chris Cruz:And a lot of it was going to college for. That's the thing is like, I didn't have the answer. Like I was going because that's what you're supposed to do. And then like failing because like, there was no. There was this like assumption of like, this is what you do. So I got to go do it. This is what you do. But like, honestly, like you fail things that you don't have a goal at, or there's no North Star that you're chasing after. And that's what, that was my college experience. I wasn't chasing after. I didn't know what I wanted to do. And it was kind of failing out of that and trying things. And, you know, I'm not an artist.

24:31I'm not, I can't, I'm not a painter. I tried doing that. It just like, it doesn't come natural.