In short
Visual identity design and brand confidence—why “taste” and judgment stay human even as AI grows; how creative confidence forms through failure and evidence; tactical process for rebrands/new brands (start with “why,” define success, align to values, then build visual direction).
Guests (Matt Lehman)
Visual identity designer with 20–25 years building brand identities; designed the Harlem Globetrotters 100th anniversary logo and brand system; previously worked at Country Music Television (MTV family) and later freelanced.
Key claims
- Confidence only counts after it survives challenge; self-talk becomes real through reps and failure.
- AI can automate/admin and generate ideas, but taste, holistic judgment, and production-readiness are differentiators.
- Purposeful craft (including “wabi-sabi” imperfections) will remain valued.
- Founders should be guided to objectives/values so design decisions don’t become personal taste battles.
Notable examples
- Harlem Globetrotters: honor legacy without living in the past; used classic red/white/blue elements carefully while shifting palette; reviewed archives from the 1920s onward.
- Sketching process: starts with pencil and paper (never starts on an iPad).
- “Uncomfortability of failure” notes: day-one frustration, day-two heavy frustration, day-three progress; reps/rejection in creative work.
- Soccer/kid art analogies: “I suck” vs “I’m missing”; identity shaped by evidence (“receipts”).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Creative Process Unpacked
0:36 to 2:00
Discussion on the challenges and frustration in the creative process.
“I'm Chris Cruz, and this is my conversation with visual identity designer Matt Lehman.”
Working with the Harlem Globetrotters
2:00 to 3:14
Insights on Matt's work with the Harlem Globetrotters for their anniversary.
“So I used to work in another life, worked at Country Music Television, which is owned by MTV.”
Navigating Client Expectations and Design Challenges
3:14 to 6:05
Exploration of the brief and expectations when designing for a historical brand.
“what are you hoping the end result is going to be for them?”
The Role of AI in Design
6:05 to 8:00
Discussion on how AI impacts design and the creative landscape.
“But to also say, I think the other side of like, nothing will ever be the same, which is true, but like no one will ever work again.”
Holistic Branding and Intentional Craft
8:00 to 9:20
Focus on the importance of a holistic approach to branding and craftsmanship.
“I can interface with the sign maker if we're doing something that's produced and printed.”
Authenticity and AI in Modern Creativity
9:20 to 14:00
Conversations around authenticity in design and the role of AI in creative processes.
“Like those stores exist in all kinds of avenues.”
Navigating Hypocrisy in Creative Work
14:00 to 15:32
Explore the discomfort and hypocrisy in using AI tools versus human creativity.
“That's the line where I'm like, okay, I'm taking, I'm holding all of these parts and I'm bringing all of them to this source that can help me on that process.”
The Importance of Hand Drawing
15:32 to 17:45
Learn about the creative process and the significance of starting projects by hand.
“And if you think about it too, you could make the argument pre AI, I'm using Photoshop.”
Embracing Failure as Growth
17:45 to 19:58
Discover how failure is essential for personal and creative growth.
“And you're like, no, I always start hand drawing it.”
The Intersection of Identity and Experience
19:58 to 24:49
Understand how identity is shaped through experiences and self-perception.
“Yeah, I just, I, nobody likes failure, but at the end of the day, the most growth happens when, you know, it's like, how does a diamond come, right?”
Show all 24 chapters
The Role of Failure in Creative Identity
24:49 to 28:01
Examine how failure plays a crucial role in developing a creative identity.
“You will say you're good at it and you'll have to reinforce it through your failures.”
Navigating Self-Worth in Creative Work
28:01 to 30:08
Learn how to separate creative output from self-judgment and metrics.
“So the first statement, again, is always who I am.”
The Importance of Pride in Creative Work
30:09 to 31:48
Discover the significance of creating from a place of pride rather than validation.
“You don't have to finish it, but you can.”
The Balance Between Client Expectations and Creative Vision
31:49 to 34:14
Explore how to balance client expectations with artistic integrity as a designer.
“But at the end of the day, what I really need to get better at is my storytelling.”
Navigating Client Dynamics in Creative Projects
34:15 to 37:50
Understand the challenges of managing client dynamics while asserting expertise.
“They came to you because you're experienced, you have an expertise.”
The Process of Branding and Identity Design
37:51 to 42:00
Learn the initial steps and considerations when approaching a new branding project.
“Or do you more like find yourself being like, I'm just going to go with it because it's easier?”
Understanding the Branding Process
42:00 to 44:50
Learn about the importance of diagnosing brand issues before proposing solutions.
“And I'm going to save you a lot of money.”
Creating a Mood Board
44:50 to 47:40
Discover how to create a mood board and its significance in branding.
“The pencil paper moment is, um, it might be even on the call, just sort of like doodling free association.”
Doodling and Word Associations in Design
47:40 to 50:40
Explore how doodling and word associations can stimulate creativity in design.
“Or are you going like, no, there's a list of words I go off of.”
Essential Tips for Founders
50:40 to 53:00
Get insights on what founders should focus on when building visual identities.
“I'm going to, so what, if you wish you could tell founders something about building visual identities, what would you wish you could tell them?”
Avoiding Common Branding Pitfalls
53:00 to 56:00
Identify what common pitfalls to avoid when developing a brand and logo.
“I think it's just, it's, it's, it's simpler than you think it is.”
The Balance of Vision and Technical Skill
56:00 to 56:50
Explore the tension between creative vision and the technical skills needed to execute it.
“Or we can put a high price tag on that and I'll gladly do that for you.”
Art and Context: From Masterpieces to Dorm Room Decor
56:50 to 58:28
Discuss how famous artworks like Starry Night lose value in popular culture and the importance of context in art appreciation.
“I was posting pictures of of my trip to New York and I went to the MoMA and you're like, you're in my DMs, right?”
The Hidden Elements in Branding
58:28 to 58:59
Understand how hidden details in logos, like the FedEx arrow, can change perceptions and enhance branding.
“That's the thing that I think when we're like, when people are like, with all art, whether it's branding, visually, we're like, oh.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Chris Cruz:Matt Lehman has spent over 20 years building brand identities. He just designed the Harlem Globetrotters 100th anniversary. And people have emailed me and I'm like, I'm going to save you a ton of money. You don't need a new brand. And I'm going to tell you why I think that. There's something about confidence that has to survive something in order to be called confidence. And in this episode, we unpack that creative process a bit. Don't long up to know day one is going to be frustration. Then day two, half the day is frustration. Day three, you're like, OK, I'm getting somewhere. We unpack what it sounds like when you stop performing your expertise and you just do what you know you're good at.
0:35Chris Cruz:This is episode 36 of Anatomy of a Brand. I'm Chris Cruz, and this is my conversation with visual identity designer Matt Lehman. Bro, you are our first time double podcast revisit, back on the set, second time. That's amazing. You were so good that we had to bring you back. Thank you. We wanted to make you feel good, so. Yeah, thanks. I'm so happy to be here. I had a great time the first time and I'm glad I'm back. Yeah. Well, since then you've worked with these small, small like organization like that nobody knows about called the Harlem Globe Charters. Yeah. Like nobody knows. I don't know. For our listeners, if you don't know Harlem Globe Charters, you know.
1:10Chris Cruz:I'm so sorry. Yes. You worked. You did something. What did you do with them? They just had 100th anniversary. So they needed a 100th anniversary logo and then sort of brand system for this entire year. For all the events they were doing? For all the events. So they have also, forever the Globetrotters were sort of the leaders, the kings of live events. And now it's sort of splintered into there's like digital stuff, which was kind of like the Dude Perfect world. Live events are sort of like the Savannah Bananas kind of have kind of like dovetailed off the Globetrotters' success. Yes, it's so true.
1:44A similar model. Yeah. And so the Globetrotters are doing more digital content, but also kind of revamping some of the live events. So they wanted to kind of like kick off, hey, we've been doing this for 100 years. It's been going great, but we're even getting bigger and better and kind of showing that off.
1:59Chris Cruz:So they, how did that get to you? Yeah. So I used to work in another life, worked at Country Music Television, which is owned by MTV. And so it's in the MTV family. MTV is dead, right? MTV is basically dead. They have an online platform still. So it's like a website. And I think the channel is still alive in the US. But I mean, it's like life support. We're not on Total Request Live anymore. There's no TRL. there's no mtv spring break carthiely somewhere but he's just not on him he works for mbc um he really does he's on the today show like quite the pivot um so the globe shutters one of my one of my uh person who used to work at cmt we didn't overlap but we knew each other kind of and um when uh so i left cmt to freelance and then she was still there and so she just reached out um gosh i don't know i guess about a year and a half ago i was like hey i remember when you were at cmt and love your branding work and want to see if there's something we can work on together.
2:55And, you know, sometimes with those large projects, large clients, there's so many red tape, it falls through. It's like you might get paid to do like a proposal of spec kind of thing. Or not spec, but work on it up front. And they pay you for some ideas, but then it goes elsewhere. So it ended up coming to fruition, which is amazing. And it was an absolute blast.
3:13Chris Cruz:So when you take on that project with the Glow Charters, what are you hoping the end result is going to be for them? Like, what are you trying? Like, what's your mind going through? you get a brief, I'm assuming, or something from them? Or were they like, free range, do whatever you want? No, the brief was awesome. So I really, the end hope is something that just really honors. I mean, this is a cliche, but it's true. It honors the legacy and the history. They have a loaded history. It's really cool. There's also some sad stuff in the history. And something that like, you know, the Globetrotters is one of those like magical brands.
3:46When you're a kid, it's almost like superhuman. For sure. And so you want to just kind of like really hold that delicately and present it back as like, let's celebrate these amazing hundred years. And then selfishly, I want to get an amazing project out of it, hopefully. But the process is I get to go through all their archives, which was incredible. Just from the 1920s until now and just get to see the process. And they were really adamant on there was a there was a hinge with this project where they wanted to honor the past, but not live in the past. they have for for a lot of people's minds it's like 60s 70s 80s kind of like heyday yeah they had a saturday morning cartoon they were everywhere um and they've they haven't been quite as much in the public um so we we we didn't want to lean too much in that want to lean into the future like i said they're exploring more digital and what did you use to inspire your
4:34Chris Cruz:direction like how did you decide where you were going to go with them when you did it yeah what was they they have these like really classic elements the red white and blue ball uh a lot of stars you couldn't put green in there you're like you know what guys we're changing this up we're going we're going uh orange green and white right sometimes it's like get out of your own way like it's pretty like the answer is kind of right there um it really wasn't hard in the sense that it's like you know when you're when you're building a brand from zero there's a little more research this is like hey don't mess it up because it's been around for 100 years like just try to make it fun and cool and so it's that it's that line of like it's fun but it's also prestigious kind of because it's been around for so long a lot of heritage um and i think you know there's some racial implications too with like their past and so you want to i want to be really careful like how you present all that absolutely um so you just want to be i mean the stuff looks so good thanks it was really fun like i always dm you i'm like i'm frustrated how good you are like it's it's like i'm like dude that looks so good thank you you you had the harlem globe charters recently that's fun now okay we're gonna dive into some tactical stuff some stuff about really looking at How, if a founder was thinking about their visual identity, what they really need to be thinking about.
5:43Chris Cruz:But we'll get there. Hopefully, we'll see if the conversation gets there. I don't know. We may not. Who cares? But right now, the tide of the amount of things you'll see that says like, well, I just was able to throw this into cloud and cloud made that like you're always dealing with the landscape changing. Yes. And you've been in this for a really long time. Yes. how are you internally navigating this are you just kind of like i got my own little i don't know what like how are you navigating yeah that's a great question it is scary it's challenging i also am kind of like leaning into so i think with the future of ai the economy whatever's happening just the social climate that we're in but mainly ai i think to put your head in the sand and say it's not happening is insane.
6:35But to also say, I think the other side of like, nothing will ever be the same, which is true, but like no one will ever work again. There's no more jobs. This is it. You know, Claude is doing everything or JetGBT or whatever. I think that's naive to some degree or it's fatalistic. I think for me, there's a handful of things that we can control or things that would differentiate us. So I've been doing this for a long time, 20 to 25 years. but I think um judgment taste uh guiding a client um I think uh this is a boring one but getting things to production like I know how to make sure this is going to look good when it's produced so I think a lot of times just like I made I've talked to somebody recently like I made this in chat gbt it didn't look great but they're like I like it I don't know what to do with it like what's the resolution oh it's too low it's it's not going to produce it was this very complicated illustration.
7:27It wasn't a logo. They wanted a logo. So I think there are, for me, I am, maybe this is naive, but putting one foot in front of the other every day, I am leaning into what I do really well.
7:38Chris Cruz:And what should be what, how would you describe what you do really well? Yeah. I think I look at brands from a holistic point of view. I think a lot of times and chat, TBT, AI services can do that. Of course they're pulling from all the data everywhere. But I think, um, just years of experience, years of battle wounds, years of doing it. And so it's like, I'm going to know where this is going to trip you up, where the pitfalls are. I can interface with the sign maker if we're doing something that's produced and printed. And I think using AI in my workflow, I'm not using it to produce any visuals, but to generate ideas.
8:12And I mean, again, like maybe some like word association, things like that. It's great. Or AI is awesome for automating some of the boring stuff, like some of the admin stuff. Oh, for sure. Yeah, so I think what I do well is the holistic view. I have an illustration bent to my design work, so bring that into the equation, giving you kind of more bang for your buck when you hire me. Going to get an extra layer of, back to the Globetrotters, it's like I'm going to present to you a ton of ideas. We're going to look at this a lot of different ways. I usually write about each idea, so a lot of design thinking, which I don't think AI is really doing that at this point.
8:46Chris Cruz:People aren't looking for that from AI. yes they're they're simply looking for a one-dimensional outcome for a an immediate solve of i need x yes and so they're like i need a logo that does this and here's my inspiration here's my ideas i mean the amount of like yeah it's it's wild when you like the the conversation like you said is never going away we're like the cat's out of the bag it's here It's here to stay. And there will always be people who are of the mind that it is faster. It is more affordable. Therefore, I will choose it. Like those stores exist in all kinds of avenues. You can find the faster, cheaper of everything.
9:30Chris Cruz:Yes. If you want a burger, you can get your burger from a lot of different places. You can get your burger where it's questionable. Is this even meat? Or you can get your burger from like, this was the cow that I nurtured for 12 years. It has a name. And that cow has been cut into 12 parts. And after every part was cut, we made sure sage was waved in the air. The Portlandia method, yeah. Yes, you can get every single part of this. And we've been doing that for a long time. So there always will be those that are looking for a commodity quick process and those that are looking for something more meaningful.
10:03Yes, I think that's a great way to say it. I think that the designers who do the commodity route are going to get knocked out. yeah so like the lowest tier i i don't mean that in a bad way but um even like the fibers of the world might get kind of taken out yeah fiber's gonna get attacked i mean there's no way yeah um so i think i also think there will be a pendulum swing to like really intentional craft really intentional um even things that feel handmade things are like there there's this movement and this trend of like how kind of like handmade can it look to some degree to make it
10:37Chris Cruz:feel real yeah i will people i have never said this out loud but yeah i love this i will intentionally at times make sure that i don't always correct my misspellings and even when i post on instagram or post on a story i will intentionally yeah put lowercase letter at the beginning because i'm like i it immediately triggers the brain that this isn't yes perfect that's amazing and it makes you go like oh okay this was intentionally chosen yeah versus like i copy and paste not that i don't copy and paste i'm just intentionally combing through to go like all right if i'm writing this i will make that first letter lowercase because that allows me to still be involved yes that's great and so it's like things like that that i think are still gonna are gonna exist like we're gonna try to show yes this somehow yeah i think that's that's a that's a hilarious example by the purposeful typos yeah that's what i'm gonna tell the chris is weird i think the analog and those kind of mistakes, the wabi-sabi of things are going to be really emphasized and highlighted.
11:38I think people are going to want that. I think there's already such resistance to the creativity of AI. It's like sometimes it works in your favor and you're like, oh, this is a quick solve. 100%. It feels good. There's the dopamine rush of like, oh my gosh. I think people who aren't that creative, it feels good to have that power. Oh, that's what I was going to say.
12:00Chris Cruz:The parts where I can find it. Like, yeah, I was like, here's the thing. Like, when you get dogmatic is where the problem comes. Yeah. Like, I think when you get conclusive and you say, I will never or I will always or this is entirely bad or this is entirely. When you get there, I'm like, okay, at that point, we're not going to be able to have a real conversation about reality. Because reality has nuance. So it's going, do I use it? Well, you have to determine how you use it. I'm not going to tell you how you use it. and but i i know for myself i have my own creative limitations and i go i know what i'm not good at has ai been able to enhance my weaknesses yes yeah and some of the things that i'm not as talented in on a creative level it has helped me with other areas i'm like no i don't need that for that because i'm i can do that on my own i can figure that out so i think we don't we have to stay here long but i think that the idea here is like this isn't going away we're which is everybody's saying that but like i think i was interested in going hearing some of where you yeah find yourself was really interesting to me because it allows me to go okay what are we calling out in a world where people are being trained to question visuals you're you're you are like whether we say it or not our first my kids say oh that's ai oh mine do too yeah like and i'm like no that's real son That's a real video.
13:25Chris Cruz:That's a real. He's like, no, that's AI. I'm like, oh, we've been already trained to question what we see. I know. And go like, that's not authentic. That's not real. That's not this. I hate it. And it is hard. It is really hard. So I'm like going, all right. I had someone say it this time, said it like this. And I was like, that's helpful because we're all reaching for straws here because we don't know the end yet. We don't know how this all works. No one knows. So we're all reaching for straws and how to make sense of our hypocrisy around it. like oh yeah that's the reality like we all have a level of hypocrisy with AI where we're like this and they're like well one day we use it for this and we're like yeah now now I'm now I'm in the camp that used it like that shoot so we're all kind of coming to terms with our own hypocrisy around something we're all uncomfortable with but all know is a part of life so what I heard somebody say one time that kind of helped me understand it to a level is when you watch a Christopher Nolan film you don't go and say all right that's not a Christopher Nolan film because he didn't edit it he didn't shoot it and he didn't do the script on it yeah all right but christopher nolan is a lot of script writing so i'm like bad example but he did a lot with his brother i get it yeah i know but the idea here is that did christopher nolan is he the director did he cast a vision did he yes but did he outsource the work some level of it yes you have to you have to yeah some degree so there's a level of our issue is outsourcing work to robots versus outsourcing work to other humans but we've always been in the process of taking credit so to speak or for work we didn't actually do the entirety of but we are the holder of all the elements that made it yes so we are the taste determiner we are the vision or the story all that it's christopher nolan didn't just go and say well i hope i make a movie about this i'm going to throw this into the chat and go, make me a movie about this.
15:14Chris Cruz:That's the line where I'm like, okay, I'm taking, I'm holding all of these parts and I'm bringing all of them to this source that can help me on that process. And our comfort level for using it is up and down all around. It's going to impact all of us though. I think that's a great, that's a great analogy. I think that's, that's accurate. And if you think about it too, you could make the argument pre AI, I'm using Photoshop. The computers something i didn't actually paint all this or draw it or photoshop was to help to mimic what people did in a dark room i didn't do it in the dark room by hand it's not legitimate so there is ai is different that's a whole other that is like yeah times a thousand but there is that element of like where is this gray area of like we're all navigating i think the i think calling spades spades is always helpful it eases my anxiety when i'm like no we're all navigating a level of hypocrisy around this thing i think that's how we how do we do this totally we're trying to find our footing so we say things that make sense in that moment and then we try to navigate it in reality and it never quite goes the same i know okay well hang on a second one more thing on this the christopher nolan example is a great one i think um there is a level of each person has a very unique point of view a very unique set of set of skills that you bring to the table like somebody's vision like like christopher nolan yeah that is what ai cannot correct do to some degree it can mimic some of that, but it's like, I can pivot.
16:39I have the, you know, so I think, I think once you're outsourcing that, that's a problem. So I think if you can kind of be true to yourself and cast that vision, help your clients do that. I think you're, again, there's a lot of, there's a lot of gray area, but, um, no, you're in this, I think we're, we're all as creatives.
16:55Chris Cruz:We're all trying to navigate the gray and we're all trying to navigate what feels like tools are changing outcomes matter how do we get to those outcomes what this way or that way and we're all trying to navigate yeah but we just solved it i'm pretty sure yeah i mean the seven minutes we discussed it yeah if you listen to this you should have all the blueprint yes yes all the ethical quandaries are okay i asked you to bring something with you yes because you posted on instagram the other day a bunch of your sketches yeah and which i again i think highlights the human element when you're like seeing this real drawing and i asked you before the show i I said, is this your process still, or do you draw with the iPad?
17:33And you said, never. Well, okay, let me rephrase that. I never start on the iPad. Ever. Yeah, yeah, sorry. You never start on the iPad.
17:40Chris Cruz:That's why I said, do you start these drawings on iPad and then continue, or do you journal, book, whatever? And you're like, no, I always start hand drawing it. I don't even start on the computer. So every project begins with pencil and paper. I think there is a brain flip that happens when, and not even a pen on the paper. The way the pencil feels and sounds on the paper triggers something in my brain that is a whole other thinking, at least for me. Now, if I'm working on a project, actually, even if a project is more photo heavy and there's no illustrations involved, I might take notes, pencil and paper first.
18:15I might even do the roughest thumbnail kind of sketches. It's very old school. It's very like. Very human. It's very human, but it is kind of like more design and advertising in the 60s, 70s, 80s, whatever. I just, even in school, I was like the last adopter for any technology. I was like, I want to do it all by hand first. I want to master it by hand, and then I can move on to the tech. Gosh. Back to the AI conversation. You're a rare breed, brother.
18:40Chris Cruz:You're a rare breed. That sounds like this high horse. No, no. But it was more of like, I didn't want, I think, I felt that like the kids, this is in college, The students who started on the computer, it looked like it was done on a computer. And I wanted to have more to it. Yeah. I mean, your style does have that hand-drawn illustration, but not entirely always. So what I wanted you to do is, okay, so out of both of the notebooks you have in front of us, is either one of them anything uniquely different than the other? No, they're all the same. Or are they both just like journals, sketch pads?
19:13They're both the same. Okay.
19:15Chris Cruz:So are they filled with notes and sketches? Yeah, notes and sketches. Okay, so here's what we're going to do. I want to do an exercise. A fun little thing. I have no idea if it's going to work or if it's going to flop. I want you to open one of them up, flip it open. Where do we land? I want you to talk about something in that and find out. If it's your kid's drawing a note from a meeting or something. I want to see what happens. If it's a grocery list, we'll maybe stop that. Okay, what is this? What is this? What do we got? I was taking notes on a speech I gave about the uncomfortability of failure.
19:55Chris Cruz:Pause. Full stop. Yeah. So you gave a speech on the uncomfortability of failure. But the necessity of it. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Ready, set, go. I don't know. I want to hear about it. Tell me about this. How did I land on this page? I love it. Unpack that. Yeah, I just, I, nobody likes failure, but at the end of the day, the most growth happens when, you know, it's like, how does a diamond come, right? It's like, it's the most pressure, it's uncomfortable, but that's where, I think you could say that vocationally, spiritually, I mean, emotionally, but in this context, it was about our creative work.
20:30and so I think um a lot of reps a lot of failure it's it's the 10 ,000 hours but I think even in a visual medium there's a lot of rejection a lot of the a lot of stuff that doesn't work it's very subjective you it's it's very vulnerable you're like putting this out there I made this for your business here are the reasons why I think it works and somebody might still be like I hate red and then you're like oh man you know it can be crushing but I also think you know someone I was talking to students recently and they're like what's the secret I'm like well they're, it's just like reps. I mean, it's like doing it again and again and again and again.
21:03Is it easier for you now? Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's easier, but I still, I'd say five days out of the week I'm working. There's probably one day you're like, you have, you leave with a lot of self-doubt. You're like, maybe I don't have it anymore. So yeah, there's just, it's a, but I also know I've done it long. I have to know if I start a logo project day one is going to be frustration. It's, it's maybe research. It's maybe, but then day two, half the day is frustration. You're like, I don't, I don't have it. Day three, you're like, okay, I'm getting somewhere. This is, I got maybe one or two good ideas.
21:35And then you kind of just start building off that.
21:36Chris Cruz:But have you seen that? Made me think of that meme. Have you seen that meme? That's like, I start a project and I'm amazing. I started, I suck. This is horrendous. You make something like this is horrible. And then it's like, I'm amazing. It was a slide in this talk. Like a screenshot of that. Yes, I have it. It's perfect. It's like, you're like, i am a failure yes yeah when it's like no this just didn't work out and there's well i why why i find that fascinating that we even just serendipitously landed uh in that part of your notes is because i've been doing actually a lot of writing and thinking through the way an identity gets formed through this in real life experience yeah because i think we're we're running a risk right now of because of the way that a lot of us have received information and learning through whether it's through classroom or now through social media that you watch and you listen and that makes you feel like you know yeah and so that but then what ends up happening is reality doesn't really care about what you know in your head and so it has this moment of friction and the friction is so necessary for your theory of who you are to actually become who you are because we're so scared we we have this okay i'm gonna go on a little bit of tangent here for just five because I never really do these on podcasts, but I'm kind of a little amped on this.
22:55Chris Cruz:We have these two kind of lanes that we wrestle with along who we are. We have one lane that is this idea of I think, therefore, I am. Right? Descartes is like the idea. I think it was Descartes who said that. I think, therefore, I am. Or one of these. I don't know. Somebody said, I think, therefore, I am. I'm not going to get somebody in the haters in the comments and be like, you said that wrong. I'm like, okay. Go ahead and type on your keyboard. Anyway, I think, therefore, I am. So we owe the most important thing about us is what we think about us, what we say about us, our self-talk. Yeah.
23:23So we have this whole group of people that it's like, all right, I need to correct how I think.
23:27Chris Cruz:And it means it will change how I live. I'm like, OK, cool. They think, think, think. And then they have their first moment. It's my son. He thinks he's great at soccer, has his first moment. And he is pissed. Or let's say art, right? My son loves to draw. and he will have this moment of, I'm good at art. His drawing doesn't line up with where his taste is, what he sees as good, and it doesn't line up. And he's pissed. Yeah. Breaking crayons, ripping pencils, ripping. I find 20 sheets of paper on the ground. My kids do this? Yeah. He's ripping them up, throwing it. I suck at art, right? The statements are about yourself.
24:08Chris Cruz:Like, I suck at art. And I remember having this moment of like, Like, okay, I could either inflate your identity by saying, no, no, no, no, no. You're amazing at art. Right. And I'm going, but in his mind, he's like, no, I'm not. Because the evidence doesn't support that. Yeah. So it's almost, and I would have this wrestle. I'm like, no, buddy, you're good at art. He's like, then why? He's so understanding. He's like, then why is this not good enough? And I'm having this wrestling with him. And I go in, because the reality is your identity gets shaped by the evidence too. It reinforces your confidence over time about what you said of yourself.
24:48Chris Cruz:So there's this dance we have of both your self-talk and you living experience, like you said, like going through these reps that reinforced you're actually good at this craft. Yeah. You will say you're good at it and you'll have to reinforce it through your failures. Yeah. Then at some point you're going to go, I'm actually good. yes that's exactly right like i'm actually good at it because i have the evidence now i have the receipts yeah using kids art as that sort of example is perfect because like your kids wrestle with the same thing yeah there's some level like they're throwing their art or they're not they're mad that they're not where they want to be yeah i can't draw i'm not good at this how do you do it especially when your dad is as good as drug as you are well but then sometimes they'll see somebody else who's way better than me and they're like why can't you do this and so then i and so then i'm I'm back on their level where I'm like, I guess I can't do this.
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25:38I'm not good.
25:40Chris Cruz:Oh, that is fantastic. They're like, dad, how come you're not that good? Oh, it is. Coming for you, ruthless. Oh, they will go for the jugular. But it really is true. It's very, whether it's as a kid or as an adult, things are going to be bad for a long period of time, and you have to just live in that uncomfortability almost of like, this is, it's like, I think a lot of kids quit drawing. and some just maybe don't have that talent, which is fine. But a lot of kids quit drawing, painting, whatever, because it is bad for a very long time. Yes. Bad, quote unquote, whatever they're, a lot of times for a kid, it doesn't look realistic or whatever.
26:18Chris Cruz:Yeah, it doesn't look like the picture that they're trying to draw. And it's very hard drawing hands, drawing people, whatever. It's very difficult. And in the same way with branding or anything in a creative field. I mean, building our life. Building our life. Oh, shoot. Building my life is this rhetoric. Like I suck at this, suck at this, suck at this, suck at this. All of a sudden you're like, whoa, I got some traction. Now reality has reinforced what I want to say about myself. And I feel much more confident. Because I think the confidence is only like confidence isn't confidence until it survives challenge.
26:51Man, there you go.
26:52Chris Cruz:Like I don't think until you actually survive in the game, I don't think you have confidence. I think you have a self-talk that you've said is confidence. But then you could say you're good at soccer all day long until you go out on the field and you play with people who are very good. Yes. You're like, oh wait, I'm not that good. Yeah. So I'm like, okay. Yeah. I mean, I wish I said that quote. So just so you could make me use AI. Yeah, I'll write that down so I can say it. Yeah. No, I think that's brilliant. Back to the word you used a little bit ago, nuance. It's all about nuance and context.
27:21So it's like, your son's like, I'm not good at soccer. Well, not necessarily. Compared to what? Compared to who? Yes. And you can be better. You got to work at it. And maybe.
27:32Chris Cruz:Like the parenting in us is so many, it gives such great context for creative work and building what we're building. Yes. Because like even the soccer analogy, my son played since he was five. He's 10, right? His team in the last three years has won championships the last three years in their league. So he's, I know he has a skill set in soccer, right? Right. So he knows how to play soccer. I'll say it like that. So we're in the backyard and he's taking shots and he's missing everything. And he's like, I suck at soccer. Right? So the first statement, again, is always who I am. And so I said, pause.
28:06Chris Cruz:You don't suck at soccer. You're missing. And there's a difference. Yeah, yeah. There's a difference between having a day where you miss shots and you suck at soccer. So in this moment, your evidence doesn't support that idea of like, I'm good or bad. It's just the reality of like, you miss. But when we make everything so, I'll say it like this. in the creative work, like you're saying, you need to fail because in the failure, you find out what you actually believe about yourself. Yes. I mean, that's, that is the deeper level too, for sure. It's not just about the work. Yes. 100%. I think I'm, I think you asked if it gets easier in one sense, the top level gets easier doing the work, but those core issues about yourself and those beliefs are always there and they're always hard.
28:57and it's always, you know, it is that level of what you just said. Like, this isn't about who I am. I need to, like, separate myself from that and get some context around this, some nuance, and know that, hey, maybe this is just a hard project or maybe there's just some details around this that make it that way.
29:12Chris Cruz:No, I deal with this so much even when I'm creating content. It's like, I suck compared to, like, so many people. But then you're like. What are you basing that off of, though? Right. Is that your own internal taste level or is that metrics that you're seeing? You're like, oh, man, we just talked about how this podcast is doing. Like, where are you getting that information about yourself? No, and it's true. It's like it's the moments where I go, I take metrics. I'm like, man, this isn't getting – it's in comparison. Yeah. Always in comparison. Like this isn't as good as X, Y, or Z. Put whoever you want in that mix.
29:47Chris Cruz:I could put eight other people in there. This isn't as good as them. And then at the same time, I'm like, did I feel proud of what I made or did I try to make this – Like I can tell creatively when I'm making something that I'm proud of versus I made something to try to gain what I would call. Yeah, I know what you're saying. You don't have to finish it, but you can. I made this so that I could feel better about me by what people say about it. 100%. And when I do that, like that's how the metrics show up radically impacted me. when I did it because I was proud of it. Yeah. And I was like, I made this because I wanted to make this and I felt like I had something to say.
30:32Yeah.
30:33Chris Cruz:That's powerful. That's when I feel good, no matter the metrics. Yeah. I'm like, it doesn't matter. That's it. Trying to create from that place consistently is hard. It's very hard. Really, really hard. Especially in the culture we live in in 2026. You feel like you have to export every single minute of your life. Yeah. But it's anyway. No, but I think not that you, I'm kind of going. Yeah. you don't want this affirmation from people, but people do sense when it comes from a place of like, right. There's a lot of joy here. I'm having fun. I made this. It's imperfect, but it's, it's, it's special.
31:07It was fun doing it. People can sense that when it's, I'm trying to get this certain response from people. Like even before you got here,
31:14Chris Cruz:me and Coop, our producer here, we're sitting down. He's like the master Jedi. I'm the paddle and learner on video. So I'm like, teach me how, why is my, why is my freaking camera always out of focus? Or this? Yeah. So he's talking me through the practicals, right? And he's like, okay, this, this, this will help you, this will help you, this will help you. And I'm looking for like the magic silver bullet. I'm like, but if I am in this environment, this is what I do. And he's like, it's all context. It depends, yeah. It depends on this, it depends on this. Maybe, maybe not, what do you want? And there's like this nuance again in all of it.
31:41Chris Cruz:And then at the end of the day, I go, you're right. All of that is kind of the trade-offs. What is gonna work, not gonna work. But at the end of the day, what I really need to get better at is my storytelling. I'm going, I know that the video matters, but my storytelling is where I go, okay, I'm not a videographer. I want to figure out how to get better at storytelling. Am I a good storyteller? Totally. Okay, maybe. Can I be better? Yes. When I get on camera, does a part of me shut down that I recognize? Yes. That I'm going, I'm trying to get out of that. I'm trying to get out of my own way. Yeah.
32:16And I think creatives, I think that's a real statement.
32:19Chris Cruz:We're trying to get out of our own way on a regular basis. 100%. If I'm asking someone for feedback, I'm usually trying to get out of my own way because I'm like, I'm stuck. I'm overthinking this. Yeah, exactly. And you kind of need to just get in that trust state. Do you? Okay. Tell me the deeper part of Matt as a visual identity designer. When you finish, how often are you finishing the logos and all that and going like, do you wait until it? Like, are you finishing proud always? Or are you like, no, I got to get done. Or I don't know. like what finishing do you mean like the first presentation or the very end of the project the very end of the project um man i don't know that's a great question it's uh there's a couple different factors does it serve the client really well so maybe it's not my favorite thing but it's like great from but a lot of times like what i think there there are two avenues or two sort of tracks to the two rails on the railroad track.
33:19One is like the analytical side of like, does this reflect the client's values, the company's values? Is this gonna get them what they need, where they wanna go? Yeah, they're paying you.
33:28Chris Cruz:Yeah, they're paying you. And there is an element, the other rail of like, I think people don't like to admit this. They either shy away from this or lean to heaviness. But how does it look? How does it feel? What is it kind of like, there is a level of you want it to be compelling and look beautiful or whatever. Um, and so I think if both those are huge wins, then I feel great. Sometimes it's one or the other. Uh, if just the visuals look good, but the client's dissatisfied, that's really hard place to be. I don't, I don't love that. Why does that bother you? Like, what does it do? Because at the end of the day, we are in a service industry and I do, I do want people to have this little, this like brand toolkit, this gem, something that they're really proud of that they can like rally the team around to some degree and that will bring them success.
34:14and so I feel like when they when it's either it's tricky because sometimes the client maybe doesn't feel like it's a success but it's the best thing for them it it is it is the broccoli that they need to eat it's like hey this is going to be really good for you I trust me on this yeah but you want them to feel proud okay you're hitting something that I want to dive into again
34:33Chris Cruz:here for for creatives you know sometimes we're talking to brand owners founders whatever it may And sometimes founders will be, or entrepreneurs, or the executive making the decisions. They came to you because you're experienced, you have an expertise. What is the dynamic that you dance between these people feeling like they know everything about this that they need, and you going, I'm actually an expert in this. I have insights that you need to take heed of in this conversation. How are you navigating that? Because I think founders, I told our team this. if you talk to founders and entrepreneurs and CEOs, they will tell you most consistently, I'll go, they'll say, they would outsource financing.
35:15Chris Cruz:They would outsource HR. They'd go through their list of things. But when you go to brand, to visual and marketing and sales, they always have a bent to feel like they're capable to do it. They'll go in and change the website. They'll go in and give their logo like, oh no, it needs to be this. Or they have this sense that like, because it's their thing that they've built, that they know it better than anybody, which they do, but they hired you for a reason. How do you, how do you navigate that? What do you do in those moments? Like, how do you, the broccoli you got to eat? Like, yeah, well, I would say what we do is more subjective and everybody has an opinion and everybody feels, I think our culture is so visual.
35:53Everyone thinks they have good taste. And so, and that's, you know, everybody, not everybody, most people like the way their house looks or they or they feel good about the knickknacks they put on the wall the picture frames um and i think accounting is very objective so it's like i can outsource that because yes great call out so it's like the design is something that i you know i've always loved fill in the blank and i want to put that my my two cents this says more about me than anything else yes right yeah it becomes really personal i think for i wouldn't say maybe the founder is not the expert and I am I would say you are an expert in your company you know your company better than I do better than I ever will yeah I'm an expert in the branding side of it yeah so let's merge our expertise into creating this like really beautiful thing together I also am like before we talk about any visuals I'm like what are what are what are the objectives what are your goals for this what would make this a success for you in your mind at the end of it When we finish, you're like, it would be a success if this is what we achieve.
36:55It could be sales. It could be just our logo feels really unprofessional and sloppy. And I want something that feels really professional that the company can rally around. So if we, and I'll put that goal at the beginning of every PDF. So it's like, this is what you said you want. And I'm with you. And we're going to, this is how we're going to get there. I also put, I also like to go back to like core values, kind of brand tenants and talk about here's, if they don't have them, I help them distill that in the strategy. Like these are your, these are the three things that you are, four things, whatever.
37:28And I lead with it every PDF. I don't, I don't like read through it every time, but I'm like, let's just like have this as true North. So then when we're talking about what shade of green, we're not in the weeds on like your opinion versus my opinion. And there is some of that. There's always gonna be a little of that, But yeah, and so sometimes it's like, hey, the objectives that we talked about at the beginning, we got to eat that broccoli. Like, this is what we are shooting for.
37:50Chris Cruz:So do you find that you will push back on if you think the direction is wrong? Or do you more like find yourself being like, I'm just going to go with it because it's easier? Man, that is the age old question. As I've gotten older, I've become more confident to push back. I do think there are certain things. What do you think is at risk when people don't push back? Like the person who never pushes back. Yeah. Like, what do you think they're missing out on or missing in about the scenario and about progress that when they never push back on the client? Because I'm not trying to advocate for people to be a holes to clients and just know you're wrong.
38:23Chris Cruz:I'm right. But I do see people be like, oh, quick, I'll do it. And like I even in myself, I'd be like, OK, just let's just do it. I mean, there's a lot of, there's so much here to unpack, but there are those times when you have to maybe acquiesce and give in and do those things. I think if it's, I'm the guide and we're going to that mountain and they're like, but I'm going this way. And I'm like, no, hey, it's my job to keep us focused. We are going, if it's a Lord of the Rings thing, you know, like we have to get the ring and we are going this direction. there are certain battles to not to not like if someone's like hey you know if if I'm wavering even in the color palette like yeah so I think color is so subjective where it's like darker shaded green lighter shaded green sometimes I'll like let the client pick I'm like what do you like yeah so a lot of times I'll present maybe two things like hey this this font or this font similar but I'm cool either they have a sense of ownership yeah when it's big picture stuff it's my job to be like to help guide them so what's at risk was the was the question um i think it becomes a waste of their money and it's a failure and it's like i didn't honor what they wanted and sorry i didn't honor what they needed but i also want to hear what they want at the same time it is so delicate it is this really delicate balance of i want them to have little wins along the way where they have input because we're doing it together yeah but when they are like hard left i want this i this this happens every now and then i'm sure this happens to you we are close to finishing i get an email or a text we are close to finishing yeah and it's like saw this poster i'm like what is this this has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about i'm like is that just information or this is inspiration or were you changing stuff um so i think it's like hey this is cool it's not right for what we're doing we're at the finish line we have it takes a confidence though yeah it takes some kind of resolve about yourself with a track record of like trusting your gut trusting yourself like there's something there that you have i don't know what it is there's something there that you're like that's not good for us that's an assessment like we're like i don't know but i think that's something worth calling out yes and i also like to assume hey anytime a client gives me any request and I just gave a funny one where I was like whatever um but in general if a client has a request or an idea I always want to come at it with with an open mind and open heart like hey let's just talk about it like that because because I I've been wrong before too like I'm like no way and they're like hey remember this is what we talked about our objective is I really feel strongly about this I'm like you know I probably have blinders on because I wanted to make it look cool I mean you're so non-pretentious that you you're like the the process of working with you is probably so smooth because you're so you have such a like i hope so a willingness to listen and be a part of the conversation and help them on that way so when we're okay when when uh when a brand is now going like we are creating an identity there's there's got to be a little bit of a um when you hear i want a logo or we need to create a brand for us what does your brain like immediately do like i'm not necessarily your system what like what do you immediately do when the client's like all right, we need a logo or we need a brand kit.
41:43Chris Cruz:What do you first do in your brand? Are you, what are you doing? Tell me if you do this too. Okay. The first question is why? And I have, no, no, no, I'm serious. And people have emailed me and I'm like, I'm going to save you a ton of money. You don't need a new brand. And I'm going to tell you why I think that. You can really keep what you have. Bro. And I'm going to save you a lot of money. And I'm like, I'm probably missing out on a paycheck. But I'm like, I think this is what's best for you. Other times I'm like, yeah. So do you mean more of my process? I love that that's the first thing that happens.
42:13Because I want them to articulate it. It's almost like you're the therapist. If someone's like, I need help. I'm struggling here. Our brand is struggling. I'm like, why do you feel that way? What's not working?
42:26Chris Cruz:I don't think people ask that question. Really? I think that's... I think they go, we can help you. Yeah. Well, and sometimes I think... I think their first email is like, we got you. Yeah. We got you. Can we set up our call next week? I think that is the first. No way. I think a majority of people are first responding like that. Because I think most of us are in this spot of going financially, projects, wanting to get things into our queue, wanting to get busy because if you're not busy or flex a certain way. So I think they're first looking to seal the deal versus diagnose. Yes, diagnose. And so I think what I love about what you're saying is that's a seasoned maturity that allows you this like, wait, I'm going to ask why first.
43:15Chris Cruz:Sure. You may have not asked why year one, year two, year three. I'm immediately thinking like, you know, it's probably not even thinking brand, thinking a singular logo as complex as I can probably make it or as clever as it can be. Like, here's the hidden thing. And I like those logos, too. but it's like it was more about like what can i get out of this that's going to be awesome for me that i can talk about to other people instead of what's right for you but the the general process the typical process is have them say why and then um we'll do a call you know it's the typical like brand intake stuff but it's just you know i'm just like if it's a if it's a brand from zero that's different than a rebrand but it's just like yeah like picking it apart like what's what's working what's not working um and it's it's really not as hard as i mean it does take a lot of time and energy and sweat but it's like once you get the process is the process the process is the process it's like it's just to somebody who doesn't know how to make wine they're like how does a grape sure become yeah this cabernet like how like how like how does this happen how do we get a merlot how does that even happen and then you talk to winemakers are like it's a pretty simple process.
44:27Chris Cruz:We do this, this, this, and this. They're like, okay, but I don't know any. So to the internal person, it's so simple, but the external, it's not. It's all those years of experience, right? So it's just like, hey, this is, in one sense, it is now a systematic process that I love doing, but it's like, hey, let's just trust that and go through it, and we'll figure out what you need or don't need. Do you think, do you find yourself, when you're designing a logo or visual identity system do you base it off of the style guide that they or a kind of mood board that you create with them or you what are you doing at that part yeah typically mood board okay so it's really a few different things it's um what are your competitors doing um so it's like all right we've talked about the analysis yeah sorry but no no no it's great it's what are the competitors so like first of all like what are your values how can you differentiate so what what's you know what and what do you believe also like kind of like how like how you're gonna act and it's it's all that stuff way before the visuals come into it and then the visuals are let me get into mood boards um and mood boards are almost more just like territories that kind of get you into the project like um maybe the analysis you make those or do they make those i i make them but but they might give me images like hey i love this i love this here you do the heavy lifting of the mood board like here i'm putting it all together and they're signing off on that after that typically yeah and it's it's it's less of a sign off it's it's it's often i love direction three but there's some elements of direction one that i want to that i think we should explore more and so we kind of kind of mash it together to some degree um yeah and then and then you're going from that to where like are you like i've seen people do the things of what's your i won't tease up ideas what's your paper and pencil, as you said before, like what does that moment look like and what starts that moment?
46:22Yeah. The pencil paper moment is, um, it might be even on the call, just sort of like doodling free association. I love that. You're like, you're already in it. You're like, I'm
46:35Chris Cruz:going to send you a mood board later on, but I'm already drawing. Yeah. And it's not even solutions. It's just sort of, it might be word association. So sometimes I'll, we'll talk about how the brand feels and I'm just like writing down stuff. Um, this is not, this is not my client. I don't think I told this last time. This was another designer. I heard say this, the client said, I want the feeling of the brand to feel like, um, gosh, if I said this before, I'm sorry. No, even if you didn't. Yeah. Then we'll hear it again. Yeah. Um, I want the brand to feel like your mom just made chocolate chip cookies and pulled them out of the oven and the brain had nothing to do with baking or anything, but like, I want the feeling to be like, ah, this is really comforting and it's and it has a comforting yeah i love that nostalgia or maybe like excitement i don't know whatever um so it's like all those things so sorry i'm getting off on pencil paper uh it's a lot of word association a lot so you're doing word association but you're like just writing are you doing literal like hey their name is um ladybird taco so it's going to be a bird or Or like, are you always drawing those associations?
47:40Chris Cruz:Or are you going like, no, there's a list of words I go off of. And then like, what's... Yeah, it's literal. It's just anything. Just like, man, this is hard to answer. It's really just association. Because I see people do it. The reason why I lean into this, because I see people do it who are like, let's go through the brand noun test and just run all their nouns around it. And I'm like, is that... Kind of. I don't think it's quite that formulaic. to some degree it is but it's just almost like hey what if we yes like for Lady Bird Taco what if we explored okay like what are the obvious things maybe the logo is a taco okay we are not going to do that but people do that maybe it's a bird okay it's called taco and the taco is the logo yes we got it nailed it pay me or it's it's really just but sometimes there's gold in cliches sometimes you can find something that is is uh there's a there's a little something in a cliche that can work for lady bird it was named after lady bird lake in austin texas and that was named after lady bird johnson the first lady of linda b johnson so it was like maybe there's a lady bird johnson portrait and and it's just everything it's like okay but then i went back to like how do they want this to feel they want it to feel um they're they're the founders are from texas um so there's a texas element what are all the texas cliches could we turn those on their head like let's not use red white and blue lone star but could we use a star in a different way is there a mascot can we use an armadillo and armadillo kind of looks like a taco kind of sort of just kind of like drawing that line and like tracing it just kind of like meandering i think so much what we do there's like a there's a i'm talking about all these formulas but there is a sense of play there is a sense of just like let's just kind of like see what happens yeah it's like you accidentally the line went a little bit too long in the drawing you're like there it is yes yeah so back to your son and drawing Sometimes I tell my kids, we're drawing, I'm like, make a mistake on purpose.
49:34And let's just see what we can do with it. Or like, draw a crazy shape and we're going to turn it into a monster.
49:39Chris Cruz:Bro, that was on the wall in my kids' art. Yeah, okay, there you go. The other day at their school, where all these drawings of monsters made from all these like, scribbles. And then they made faces in them. It's so fun. Yes. So fun. This sounds like the most like, Mr. Rogers or like a woo-woo kind of thing. But I'm like, there really aren't. this is a bigger question for a lot of things but for what we're talking about there really aren't mistakes so like it's like i can't draw i'm terrible at drawing it's like what are you talking about yeah um that doesn't mean anything yep um absolutely uh so yeah i just there's a lot of this just sort of like playing doodling um just kind of messing around with with with the first step is no objective really just kind of like messing around doodling writing down what they are like they make tacos they want it to be it's a community space it feels light it feels fun okay what things feel light and fun a sun um you know it's just like it may have nothing to do with the final logo but that's the thing about that that i think is really interesting is when founders or executives entrepreneurs whoever they are they're building their brand and they want the visual identity component in there and they get each to a guy like you they're pulling in all of your life experience the way that you make word associations the way that you connect the dots yeah and they're going, okay, I like the way Matt connects dots.
50:55Chris Cruz:I'm going to, so what, if you wish you could tell founders something about building visual identities, what would you wish you could tell them? Hmm, man. I think that's a great question. I think, oh man, this is so hard. I could take it a lot, a lot of different ways. I think it's probably a don't overthink it, even though we're talking about all this thinking that goes into it. Don't overthink it.
51:36One aspect of it needs to be simple and memorable. That's a cliche, but it's true.
51:45I think when people get into trouble, a lot of times we might have something finished or close to finished. and it just, they want to keep changing it, keep tweaking it, keep. Why do they want to keep doing that? I don't know. It's like, it's fun. Like they enjoy the process or it's like, we can make it better. I think one of the questions that Michaela emailed was what makes a good logo maybe? And I'm like, it's all context and nuance. And so I think for founders, it may be like, I want something clever, like the FedEx aero. And I'm like, don't even worry about clever. Let's just get it. Something that feels memorable, relatively simple, repeatable.
52:21um and that's something that reflects your values and then just run with it and then just start doing it and then as it's as it grows it's like there's nothing special about the nike logo it's the nike brand plus time plus time yeah that's it that's it so it's like i think founders want to be like what back to the back to what you said about talking to cooper about uh photography or video like what's a silver bullet well there really isn't it's like let's just make a really good logo, really great logo, really great brand, have everybody buy in, and then just keep it going. And just keep it going.
52:52Chris Cruz:And trust that that process will give meaning to whatever you made. Yes. Versus the other way around. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Time, time, and then a great product also. Yeah. We'll, we'll give it meaning. That's a long-winded answer. I think it's just, it's, it's, it's simpler than you think it is. Where do they get, where, where would, if you were like, okay avoid this pitfall like where you're like man when you're building these visual identities avoid this pitfall is it like i'll just leave you there what pitfall are you going to like avoid this don't don't do that what pitfall one of the things that i have trouble with is making things too complicated i just said and that could be the visual identity all the pieces and parts all the components i have trouble knowing when to stop and i almost want to give people too much stuff to work with uh i think with i think the pitfall for maybe founders would be um
53:46oh boy um you can just edit out these long pauses because the long pauses build attention i'm trying to think that's right wait for this really great answer from matt here
54:00i think it's just it's similar to what i said before it's just over complicating it it's just I think a lot of brands fail there's just too much happening there's too much going on I'd say that or this is another easy answer but it's true like we heavy have heavy trends like really trendy stuff is just you're going to be really sad in a few years that you did that yeah don't don't do it I I have a thought to and I usually mention this when I'm working on a branding project you want something to feel I think timeless is silly word to say it's lost its meaning but something that can last like give it a shelf life last 20 years roughly that feels current but not trendy it feels like it it feels like it's yeah so i think for founders the pitfall is um let me give you one
54:47Chris Cruz:more maybe this is the better answer yeah you can edit out because i have one i want to ask you about okay good uh last one uh i'd say um maybe having your having your logo do all the heavy lifting i can convince you that you have a circle and then we could we could build your brand on a circle i guarantee you and it would be memorable and great um dude that is it that is like what my brain is going through where yeah they go they show you their sketch or their thing they made now it's they've used the eye to create the thing that they want and they want to show it to you they're like this isn't the finished product but but yeah i really love how this has this and then this is on top of it and then this symbol lives inside this and you're like okay so this sounds like you're pretty committed yeah so this is what you want it to look like and feel like what are we doing yes like why are we why are you engaging right now like hold on pause let's pull back a second like i know this directionally what does somebody say this is directionally right oh i've that's i haven't heard that one yeah it's like hey this is like i heard somebody talk about it when they're engaging with nuance and recognizing that there's there's more nuance than what someone is articulating but they don't want to squash what they're saying like it's directionally right and then i go back to like why why is it directionally i'm not saying it is or isn't but you tell me why it's directionally right and in those instances sometimes people just i'm sure cooper feels like this too but like they just they don't they don't have the technical know-how they're like i have the i want to do the vision i want to do the artwork part of it, but you can click the mouse for me at the end because I don't know how to do that part.
56:27Yes.
56:28Chris Cruz:I'm like, okay. It ain't going to work too well. Yeah. Or we can put a high price tag on that and I'll gladly do that for you. Yes, exactly. We can definitely make this way more expensive to do what you would like me to do there. Did I just undercut everything I just said by saying the last statement? No, I think we're fine with it. I think the honesty of it is good, you know, because people got to make some bread out here. That's right. No doubt. I keep going to like the I'll end on this funny moment where I was posting pictures of of my trip to New York and I went to the MoMA and you're like, you're in my DMs, right?
56:57Chris Cruz:You're like, amazing, amazing. And then I show, what was it? Starry Night? Starry Night, yeah. And you say, all I could think is college dorm room. Yes, like a sorority, like dorm room poster. Like we're looking at, like the funny thing is like, we're both like, how does a work of art now all of a sudden literally has been reduced to like, oh. Starry Night is like a live, laugh, love almost. And that's crazy because Starry Night, again, back to context, on its own, and with some context with Van Gogh and what was happening, is incredible. It's beautiful. It's gorgeous. It is unbelievable. In my mind.
57:34I love it. But then it gets taken into popular culture, and it becomes the dorm room beside the Live, Laugh, Love poster. And you're like, Starry Night kind of sucks now.
57:44Chris Cruz:Like, screw you, Van Gogh. Because it's like, it gets taken into that. But it's even similar to like Monet's Water Lilies. Yeah. Unbelievable. But you just think like, oh, this is like not. Listen, I saw the Water Lilies. I almost lost my breath, though, when I saw it in person. It's incredible. Like in person, I was like, in a book on my table at home, I have a Monet in a book. And I'm like, we're geeking out here for people who like history of modern art. And I'm like, it was my favorite class. Yeah, same. The book on my table in my room has the Water Lilies on it. So I've seen it in picture, but it's very different when you go and experience it.
58:21It's huge. It's huge. And it's incredible. And at the time, nobody was painting like that, really. And so it was. And that's the context. Yeah, the context.
58:28Chris Cruz:That's the thing that I think when we're like, when people are like, with all art, whether it's branding, visually, we're like, oh. But then when you back up in their story, context, all that, what was otherwise kind of boring to you, all of a sudden is exciting. The FedEx logo, when people don't realize, you said it briefly, when they don't realize there's an arrow inside of it. They're like, oh, it's just orange and purple like FedEx. Tiked out the name. Tiked out on Helvetica New, what? Bold, extra, what? You're like, no, there's an arrow in there. And you're like, oh. And your mind goes like that.
58:58Yeah.
58:58Chris Cruz:Well, bro, thank you for coming on again to the podcast. Thanks for having me. Probably have you around for round three, too, just because it's fun to chat. Yeah. Maybe if I get to a fifth time, I get the five-timers club jacket. That's it. But two. We're starting with two. Next time, I'm going to put you and another designer. I'm going to put you at odds like a battle. I'm going to make you draw in real time. I'm going to put brands in front of you. I'm going to say, Hey, we're making this kind of place. Ready, set, go. Get somebody who draws way better than me. And then my kids will be like, get you and Brandon Triola together.
59:25Chris Cruz:And just like get you guys to draw in real life. Amazing. Awesome. Thanks, man. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Awesome.
From the publisher
Most designers aren't losing to AI. They're losing to their own fear of what AI means.
In this episode, we sit back down with Matt Lehman, founder of Matt Lehman Studio and the designer behind the Harlem Globetrotters' 100th anniversary rebrand, to go deeper on what it actually takes to build a visual identity that lasts. We get into the creative process nobody shows you: pencil to paper, free association, playing until something clicks. We talk about why the Nike Swoosh isn't a great logo, it's a great brand. And we dig into the harder question: when AI can generate a logo in seconds, what does a 25-year career actually protect you from?
This isn't a conversation about tools or trends. It's about judgment, taste, and the courage to push back when a client is wrong.
You'll hear:
• Why commodity designers are getting knocked out, and what separates the ones who won't
• The single question Matt asks every client before touching a pencil• Why your logo doing "all the heavy lifting" is the #1 mistake founders make
• What the Harlem Globetrotters' rebrand taught him about honoring legacy without living in it• The "broccoli moment" — and when to hold your ground with a client who hired you
• Confidence: what it actually is, and why you might not have it yet
If you're a founder, creative director, or operator who's ever hired someone to build your brand, or been hired to do it, this conversation is for you.
Timestamps
00:00:00 Trailer
00:00:10 Matt returns: he just redesigned a 100-year-old icon
00:00:47 The Globetrotters rebrand: honoring the past without living there
00:02:40 How do you hold a legacy brand without breaking it?00:04:00 The creative direction decision that surprised everyone
00:05:18 AI and design: the real question nobody's asking
00:06:22 "Head in the sand" vs. "no jobs left" — navigating the gray area
00:07:17 The holistic view 25 years of reps actually buys you
00:09:15 Commodity designers vs. craft designers — the split is happening now
00:10:04 The analog comeback: why imperfection is the new premium signal
00:13:10 How we're all navigating our own hypocrisy around AI
00:13:46 The Christopher Nolan test for creative ownership
00:16:43 Pencil first, always — and why the brain flips
00:19:40 What a speech on failure taught him about creative identity
00:21:55 Confidence is only confidence until it survives a challenge
00:25:10 Bad for a long time: why most people quit too soon
00:29:14 Creating from pride vs. creating to be liked
00:34:14 The founder problem: why they'll outsource HR but not their logo
00:36:25 The framework Matt uses to align every client before a single sketch
00:37:17 When to push back — and what you risk when you never do
00:41:10 The first question Matt asks every client (and how it saves them money)
00:50:55 Advice for founders: what actually makes a good logo
00:51:45 "There's nothing special about the Nike logo"
00:53:04 The #1 pitfall: making your logo do too much
00:56:23 When Starry Night became a dorm room poster — context collapse in branding
Guest: Matt Lehman, Founder of Matt Lehman Studio (Nashville, TN). Designer behind the Harlem Globetrotters' 100th anniversary rebrand. Clients include ESPN, Delta, PepsiCo, The Atlantic, Esquire, Nickelodeon, and NASA. 25+ years designing visual identity systems that last.
Get in Touch
Instagram: www.instagram.com/anatomyofabrandWebsite: www.anatomyofabrand.coEmail: micaela@harborandunion.com