VSCO: The Brand That Helped Creators Go Pro (And How) | Greg Lutze Ep. 2

0:00Chris Cruz:15 years ago, digital photography was taking over. Film was dying. One small team asked, how can we preserve the soul of analog in a digital world? That question sparked what became VSCO, co-founded by Greg Lutze, a creative visionary who didn't just want to keep up with change. VSCO didn't just make bad photos look good. They created filters that felt like real film, timeless, human. But that was just the surface. Why isn't anyone truly showing up for photographers. They built it for the entire arc of the creative journey. They understood something most brands miss. Your brand isn't just what you offer.

0:37Chris Cruz:It's what you empower people to become. I remember when I saw this app and this app was taking my really bad photography. I was with Cubby Graham, I think it was at this time. Oh yeah. And he showed me, you know Cubby, I know all these people because of this app and their connection to this app called VSCO. And I remember it changing everything about photography as far as it took for high-level photographers and for the entry-owned people who wanted to get better editing. And that was your brainchild. Yeah. You were some kind of came up right. Yeah. You and your friends. You and your friends started Bisco.

1:17Chris Cruz:Yeah. Which, I mean, should get a ton of credit for how social media currently is seeing how it is, how it does photography. you guys helped thanks pioneer almost what social media looked like on a photography level i would say game changer tell me about visco tell me about your role in it how you thought about it from a brand perspective yeah visual all of it obviously it's a visual medium photography but there's all kinds of stuff pulling your options yeah i think it so circa 2010 2011 i was working um creative director archery action largely in music largely in like snowboard skateboard video game okay whatever like a 15 year old boy thought was cool it's probably but i was like designing creative directing and then i met a guy named joel who was a photographer and we just started chatting about like where is photography heading where's creativity heading what are brands there's the conversation everybody needs to be having yeah right yeah i mean especially even today yeah like at that time we were like doesn't feel like there's anyone that will just really step up for creatives or photographers whatever you want to put it yeah we want to be that company then it's like there and so we we started with kind of a tagline of like by photographers for photographers not just not just a company not just a brand that is like selling whatever to this demographic but we want to be like no this is us we know this world and we want to show up and so we have to build and that's that was really the do you first think it was going to be what it was like how did it know where did you begin our process when you started thinking through it it was a major site also okay so how did it how did it start like do you was there a problem that you guys were thinking about solving because you're a brand that has had dependent which had to reinvent itself almost yeah and so then had to figure out how do we how do we look at ourselves consistently yeah reinvented what's in the future like you've ever finished and it's been a journey because i mean at the the very root of it we love photography like even to this day i just like i totally geek out about her but at this time i mean you got to go back 15 years ago it looked like film real film the thing that kodak pilfer were all like cutting their stocks and everyone is moving digital yes this is even i mean mobile phones were out but it was like fully not like yeah point but like digital cameras was the depo film yeah and so me and joel and then my friend zach hoggut were talking about like how can we essentially digitally recreate these films so then the next generation can't shoot with that was there anything out at the time was there a tennis like there wasn't any much there there's some stuff but it was like basically eyeball like oh this is essentially code of film but it didn't really look like it it looked like almost like orange concrete textures on top of an image like yeah nah that's not it was like a like a layer that you were putting oh yeah you guys changed it because you actually started to mess with filter settings and all yeah i mean props is out colleges on that because like he got real technical album out and we were able to do something that at the time no one else had done and so we got this really authentic look form for digital film emulation yeah and so that was the start it was a side that's why i was still running my design agency but then when we launched it like something just took off and i think largely came down to it was really a product that helped people's work so like it looked great your images just looked better yeah and then immediately solved that deep problem yeah yeah and then it was so much faster so you'd you could maybe do that on your own yeah but it would just take hours this was like oh and you're done yeah so that was where that started but then soon we're like man mobile photography something's going on here but i'd always been fascinated i've always shop with like little crappy 35 millimeter point and shoots okay like goodwill yeah so i always loved like you call it the lower end of like cameras yeah to me the mobile phone was fascinating even though like at the time i forget what the resolution was but today's standards probably not so great but we were like could we make this this mobile phone an actual like tool for fit servers okay so let me ask you a question there because that way that way of thinking that way of seeing the world it it's it took a it created this brand that now as we said we'll get to where it is today but it it really started to look at all right where are people natively taking pictures on their phones the app development started to take place yeah when you guys started to think about how you were going to show up in the market front going we had an idea yeah we think this idea really can solve a problem yeah it's a bit of a side hustle but now we're going to show up in the market yeah what were the what was the thought process for visco to show up in the market and you said like it took off because it made people who didn't think they could be photographers yeah they thought they could be photographers after that and some of them though because of visco dare i say their whole trajectory of their life changed and they became photographers and And that became their career.

6:25Chris Cruz:And you know those people. Yeah. It's incredible. It's amazing. To see what an app that went from going like, hey, we're going to do this side hustle. We're going to start this. And it launched other people's careers. Yeah. How did you guys think about going to market? And then we'll talk about launching other people's careers there. I mean, even before seeing about going to market, even before thinking about like, what is the actual products? Yeah. The conversation we're having is like, why is nobody showing up for photographers in this space? Yeah. And like I said, it's a difference between selling a photographer or something versus like, hey, we're actually part of this trying to support things, trying to bring everybody up.

7:00Chris Cruz:Yeah. So it really comes down to our mission, which is essentially we want to help photographers make it. And at the time when we say make it, it was like take a photo. Okay. Over the years, like now our focus is like we want to help photographers make it and that includes financially getting jobs. you're going about like rights and level and contracts like education it's it's a much broader perspective sharing your work yeah only exposure and all those things but but at the root of it is like yeah we want all the photographers who make it and that is what do you call it calling your mind like everything aligns to that that is our north star so that's a good jumping off point to continue diving deeper in here you when i asked you before one time i said what do you obsess about when you think about brands like what's the thing that you love to obsess about you were like the journey yeah the journey of uh and whether that's that customer journey or where you're taking them how did that line up was this guy like because i think a lot of right now you'll see the ability to create product feels the barrier to entry feels low because people feel like they could just make anything right now but until you find these brands who are you know i'm even engaging with some of them they're like they're almost generic because they they're creating stuff that's really accessible to create but they don't have a journey in mind you can tell they don't have an identity in mind they don't have something that they are or they have a product that they know they can sell yeah but you're saying there's a little bit of nuance to that there's something deeper there i think a lot of these emerging especially ddc brands you're like we've got a deliverable we've got something we can ship but we don't have a journey we don't have a story we don't have anything like that so yeah speak into that a little bit more yeah and i'll divide like journey up into a couple different places there one if you're talking about a photographer and largely let's let's start with someone who's 13 14 to get for christmas they get an iphone and then they put visco on they're just like taking photos of whatever whatever is around them yeah maybe they're not good or professional but they're like wow something there's some bias right and then you're up there starting to put out work they're starting to get They're learning about other photographers that influence them.

9:12There's a photo op, all that process. So we want to be there on that person's journey all the way through to the person who's like a pro, doing big things.

9:23Chris Cruz:You're looking at every stage of life of us, every segment of the photographer's journey, which is, I think, critical to think about, especially right now. I think it's a different way to look at things. And candidly, I think we kind of dropped the ball on that initially. Well, before we were, we were known largely as like a younger demographic team, early twenties. And then we had mobile phone, mobile app. We had all these like things that were for like more like fun photography. And then they graduate and we're like, okay, go on to Adobe, go on to Capture One, go on to whatever these other tools that you need to run your business are.

10:00And I think we, we, there was an era where we dropped that a bit. And so now we're trying to come back and be like, hey, that whole journey, that whole process, we want to be right beside you along the way. Because at some point, I mean, you see it.

10:14Chris Cruz:Because you're not just delivering a product at that point. You're actually, you feel a little bit deeper. You feel like an advocate to their journey. Absolutely. You're not just going, we've got a great product. Let us sell this product to you. Let us just purely solve a problem for you. And when somebody else can solve this problem, you'll go there. Yeah. But we want to be closer to just, than just solving what probably is. It's not even a one. I think it's a responsibility. Oh, I suck. Because once again, it ties back to that mission of like, we want to help photographers make it. And if they're not making it, then we failed.

10:43Granted, I think the definition of making it for different people is different things. For some people, just like going out and shooting, that's enough. And that's great. I love that. That's what's through at this stage of my life is what I do. It's just documenting a lot. I'm not trying to.

10:58Chris Cruz:Yeah. so the question so visco had this incredible run it launched uh some of the people that i would think that were connected to whether they had i don't know what stage of connection like a joe breer i don't know what joe breer's connection fully was i know he was connected what like guys like him play a role in it and got launched from it there's other individuals just like that that are in that ethos of going the early entry into photography in the last 15 years or so like how do you see how visco as a brand helped launch a whole group of people well i mean i'll say this you mentioned joe greer is insanely talented yeah oh yeah he would have made it you wouldn't have him on the podcast too because it would be a fun journey to tie it but hopefully my hope is for a photographer like him or anyone who's getting into photography we are at least an option and we can at least help you get our drake they're gonna have to put in the work right they're gonna have to have the talent but if we can be there to be like in some ways just the encourager yeah because i think with a lot of photographers there's just this like self-dial yeah or and so just someone to be like uh you got this yeah but i think that's every almost every creator he has that sense of like i just need somebody in that corner but no one ever just doubles down into a specific space and goes hey i want to be that voice for you and like you said like a jogger would have been would have launched no matter what so you you guys are just constantly just helping regardless of where they're going to go you guys were that advocate on whatever stage they were in you guys positioned so i know myself just as a creative it became such a go-to thing till when everyone cubby started showing me at new york city we're going i go to the charity water headquarters and i hang out with cubby for the day and he's showing me and this other guy named matt oliver do you know matt oliver okay so you're a photographer in new york and he started showing me too and i'm like this is this is gang-changing yeah on how to interact with photography how to do so it was amazing but you guys also pivoted at some point we'll talk about that for a little bit and then uh then i want to dive into because you do a lot of consulting too with brands in all different ways one of the things we we share is a love for jiu-jitsu you know you and i trained jiu-jitsu on a regular basis well i tore my achilles six months or whatever once he goes i trained it a bit about bobby back for sure but you you've lost the jiu-jitsu brand and so there's there's lots of things you've consulted creatively so i want to get to how you look at that okay before we get to that i want to talk about the pivot for visco and and how it's as a brand what i needed to think about in order to make that adjustment because i think some of um brands never actually ask that question do we need to reinvent yeah do we need to pivot they're not thinking about the future enough to understand they need to change and then they they fall off i think places like coffee coffee retail place are in that specific space you just do i think they're in that threshold where they're like if you're not thinking about the future i think there's going to be a robot that's going to make a cappuccino that's going to and there's going to be a lot of people that don't want that because they want that crap yeah but i do think regardless of whether your industry is disrupted thinking about the future is critical even at any stage what what did you guys think about at visco what were the questions you were asking um that you were brought in to go we need to pivot well i think i think there's different whether you call them pivots or just um you know not complete pivots but just like trying to adjust the ancestry of it when we first started we were it was very clear we are here for photographers that are very serious about these crowds yeah and interestingly enough though we had made some product decisions with the our community which is where you can post your images we didn't want likes comments while we're cal we were like just create what you want.

14:46Don't have the pressure of making what you think other people want.

14:50Chris Cruz:Yeah. Don't be as late to the hour. A lot of creativity will need to drop you. So the intent was to help photographers, pro photographers have a playground, a place to share what they have at. What was interesting though is that started, in addition to how being a mobile app, we started getting a lot of teenagers. A lot of teenagers who were just like, oh, this is a safe space. that was the language that they would use okay and they were photography adjacent but you wouldn't say that they were like oh this is where i'm going this was called the ovisco girl thing it was a meme that took off in about 2017 yeah we didn't start it you most people are responsible for yeah most people are like why did you start this yeah um it's just something that started happening and it was so big from a brand perspective me couldn't really control it wow and even some of our messaging we wanted to be really careful because this is a demographic young teenage girl demographic that people knock all the time and like they are part of our community they were actually only a part of our community that the perception was that was what visco was all about okay but no they were part of it and so fast forward today it's super cool to see one of these teenage gals that are definitely amazing photographers that's and that's a death in my throat before yeah well what's what some Some of them started as a meme.

16:11Chris Cruz:Yeah. Their whole world changed because of being an atheist. So I have nothing but love for that. Yeah. From a brand perspective, though, a lot of the people that were like hardcore photographers were like, oh, VSCO sold out. Yeah. VSCO is like, you know, just trying to be the next social media company. And so that was hard for us to control. I mean, there's a perception, I think, that VSCO is huge. We're still like a startup. we're not like this thousand people company i have all this all this money to go towards that and so we were trying to talk about girl creators on visco as they said about visco girl but in the process that whole era we didn't lose a lot of the people that are like oh visco is really here for serious photography okay so a couple years ago we were like man that's fine but our heart mission is to help photographers make yeah like that really is the core of what we're trying to there's a humility in so many things you're saying the assessments of looking at that i think is so refreshing for brands to think about because i think it's you guys saw things that you could control you couldn't control you in this even this conversation here you've acknowledged so many things you're like we we dropped the ball here we could there's a humility and a refreshing kind of take on your creativity with brands that I just love.

17:32Chris Cruz:So I just wanted to highlight that because I think that's such a quality. People need to make sure they're championing it in themselves. There's that willingness to look at what you've done and go, we might've made a mistake in our attempt for good or we did good, but we dropped something in that process. I think that's so refreshing because sometimes you would just want to only look at it through those rose-colored lenses and go, we're good, we're good, we did great, we did great, we did great, we did great. And they kind of posture their brand in a way that they never failed or never made a mistake.

17:58Chris Cruz:I never had to adjust. That's not your story. Because you're for the photographer. You have that authenticity that's showing up. So I like that. Well, thanks. So about four years ago, you started to make a different. A few years ago, we were like, if our mission, which we set out years ago, is to help photographers make it, we need to really focus on who that is, the photographer, someone who is serious about it. And it doesn't mean you're a professional, but it is someone who has a certain intent to like, I love this. Like, this is my thing. so you wrestle with who this is for a little bit okay and then because that that does impact how you message how you talk about the money it does impact the product decisions that you make and the duels that you're making uh and then i think we also expanded the other half of what our mission was is like what does make it and before we largely looked at that as like making it click whereas it's now yes the process of taking the photo yes the process of being inspired yeah i'll that but um we're really investing in things of like how do you run your photography business a lot of photographers struggle with that and i i am not the business guy like i like to make stuff and so to be able to have the tools and the services to help you run your business to work with clients to build to invoice to have like legal documents taken care of so important the other area we're heavily investing in is around education okay um and that's the business side of it too but that's also just some of like how do you interact with your subject or like how are you editing this whole process and we've always had education but we're realizing like especially in this day and age people are fire photographers they're good or better they they've just grown up on this yeah visual cons they are from streaming all the time so like the less of like well how do you compose that we need more of like hey you don't have to shoot that for free you know like that kind of education that kind of making so that's only especially maturity it's like you've you transition from kind of being guided to that spot process to a sage brand where you're like we're actually this sage to build like we know what it's like to have to navigate this stage of photography yeah and we're going to help you navigate this now when before you guys needed this this is what the market needed now the market needs this you guys are all killer and what we offered before you're done yeah but now we actually need to help you here this is where you're in order to make it you need this yeah and i mean i'll say props uh air equipment is our ceo he he's had experience that like adobe and figma he's really come in and and given a good perspective on that what did he come in um i think he came in three years ago got president and then he's the last couple years been the CEO last year and a half but he's doing a great job and and he always uses the term like layer cape and before we had one layer which is basically like edit yeah which would do well and then the second layer is like community which we've always done doing well as well oh yeah there's so many things in I know so many groups that were all yeah they were gathering around major cities take photos together yeah so that's something that we are like massively ramping up around the world this year like everything during covid like era weird i mean we even went fully remote we're opening up offices again in san francisco new york we're doing all those events that we used to do waste like open studio okay that was very outside because that that is a brand activation type of thing that you guys are doing that yes is really different interesting that i think is kind of that experiential brand activation talk talk about open studio like that's Yeah, such a good company.

21:38Open Studio started, I think, in 2016 in our New York office, which was where largely the creative content was being made. Okay. And we had this great space, beautiful space, like all the lights, everything set up. But you only use that as a company when you're shooting these campaigns or certain times. And so by and large, you have this amazing set of equipment that is just sitting there. So it was just like, let's just set up to photographers. And that's all we did. It wasn't, we didn't charge. it wasn't this like super like strategic yeah there was no cta at the end of it going like

22:12Chris Cruz:now you must pay ads about to get to this court just like or gee this would be good for the community yeah and so and then we did that in sam no you just activate with your ring yeah yeah love that and so we'll we'll have uh in san francisco office wall so have like it won't be a site wall but it will be like um like paper or the map drops you can drop and so just ways how how are those things that we can do to just like help the community it doesn't have to necessarily be this like crazy like business yeah project but that's just something that for our members that are that are in that those areas like cool let's figure out a way out so when you start going to the different consulting stuff you do with other brands yeah and they start to bring you in what are some of the things you're looking for right away that you're part what is the thing that you're like hey when you need this i'm that guy and this is what i do i want to engage with kind of like a little bit of your superpower and how you help brands with that superpower what's what's the thing you're like if you're struggling with this i come in and help this and this is how yeah

23:13well strongly i i roll towards visuals i know everyone knows i mean it's part of the ecosystem i know everyone's like a brand is not a logo but but in this day and age you have two seconds three seconds or maybe even that yeah so if you also have somebody that is just like all there whether that's the imagery the video the voiceover the music all that you have such a short attention span to capture somewhat and so like to me that brand journey it really absolutely starts with visuals and i think a lot of brands realize that yeah now a lot of companies you you've definitely seen an upload i think when orpheus and visco was like stood out and like 15 years ago because we

23:52Chris Cruz:just like it's just like great yeah i mean the app looks great the the icon was great you're like it was different so so you're you're that you're visual forward in the ecosystem if we looked at brands as a holistic ecosystem that will acquire all these interdependent parts working and playing in harmony together to deliver on the promise if we were seeing that holistic approach and visuals played a role which they do i agree 100 visuals play a role inside of this ecosystem um it's it's like people when you it was all it's almost like sometimes i tell them if you were showing up for an interview for a job you really wanted would you care about how you looked not in the way that you're my my worth is determined by how i look and so this person is going to make a worth call on me but going does your showing up and how you show up for an interview position you for the best chance at winning the interview you want yeah and if that's the case and i'm not saying you have to be dressed wearing a suit i'm just saying that environment that context has something that you resonate with do you show up like that and i think sometimes i think about visual identities and brands and the visuals of brands similar to that like you would care about how you showed up for something you were trying to win people better or worse people are going to meet a judgment call they are they're going to do it yeah and when you i mean you raise something i think really important there that a lot of companies forget about is like their brand in the consumer space yeah is really about identity and not even their identity it's about the identity of the person correct right like if i'm wearing like if i'm shooting with leica i could tell you oh it's because i like the image quality i like the build of the product but actually i'm i'm making a strong statement about who i'm in absolutely right like if i'm if i'm wearing like a million door i'm making a strong statement you are what i think is important and also i like these don't i mean yeah yeah yeah yeah and so i think really at the end of the day brand is about identity but not necessarily about identity logo the identity is it how does this reflect me yeah and does this brand give you permission to be that person yeah and i think that's really i think that's one of the interesting plays right now we're seeing is that brands need to give people some sense of permission to be a person who is that person you guys stand up for them to be this go was that for photographers yeah you guys really like so people understood that and so now when you go with brands tell me more about like when you're engaging with them on the visual level when you're thinking about identity and they have that right quick scroll what are you saying to them what are you asking questions of what do you do i mean i feel at this stage i have a very specific aesthetic look that i like and it's largely minimal clean scandinavian's got some zen to it as rob yeah yeah however i think that's the aesthetic is that's important and this is the consistency yeah like you can be consistently bad and that's our thing to people right like your type i've i look and be like that's like parable bubble type that actually might speak to your certain demographic and if you're at least consistent on that yeah i think brands get into trouble when um they're inconsistent in their messaging they're inconsistent in how they talk about their mission when you have the colors of the types around you like even if you're on social media and all of a sudden like you see like a type that you're like oh i don't yeah it's like that brand type you to heal it uh-huh it's that ethos and alignment you're like there's something about alignment and something is off and it's not that everything needs to be quote unquote on brand because there's trends but if you're on the foundation sure there's something feels off it's like now you don't even know who you are yeah let alone try to get me to be a part of something and the consumer can tell i i think we maybe they can't express it in those right right but they can tell if something's consistent and then even worse if you've made a promise with your brand and you break that yeah or they perceive that you break that then that restoration is really really hard and sometimes it's just like the truth is i think people outgrow rants too yeah you know like yeah a race tub brands are always meant to be a trend they're not necessarily meant to be like a legacy type of mess and same that's there but there's a realness to that and that there's uh there's a like uh for i think about rolex for example you rolex is the the aspiration for me yeah like it's where i want ahead.

28:13Chris Cruz:There's certain cars that I'm like, at some point, not as a status symbol to the world, but as to myself, I'm like, oh, at that stage of life, Mercedes has been trying to sell me since I was 18. Or BMW has been reaching out to me since I was 16. I'm not going to buy that car anytime soon. But I'm going to mature into a vehicle like that at some point. Some people get access to those vehicles at certain stages of life in the way I've seen County, Tennessee. So they get them in 12. But I didn't get it when I was 12. But I remember seeing a Jaguar from more than like the first time which i really sad about the the rebrand and i love it actually okay i i love that they are actually calling it out and saying i think we missed yeah and they're pivot interesting so they're they're actually i think they're actively looking for a new studio to take on the rebrand for jaguar a rebrand of the rebrand yeah because i remember looking at a jaguar and the elegance the almost the royalty of this dude that pulled up in this and it wasn't a really like we were playing paintball so it was in the woods and he pulled up in his jab one i remember going what is that and that feels out of context right but that and i remember talking to this guy like jaguar was in my brain when i was 17 i was like this is this like regal type of video and i know that one later on like jabbar was in my mind as a vehicle like if i hit that kind of thing anyway when you what's a challenge you give breaks like when you're like hey if someone's listening to this podcast and they're going man i'm in this stage where visuals with something I haven't thought about, or they're like, we know it really matters, but we don't know what to do.

29:45We're like, what are you saying to these people? Or like, I know that you have your taste and your aesthetic.

29:49Chris Cruz:What are you saying to them that's getting them to think differently or turn the reels on this? I think the place to start is you might have a great product. And most people that are starting companies in the startup world, which is where I largely play, they actually have a really good idea for a product. but you have to look at the challenge of how do you get people to know about this product and the way to do that is marketing and this tip of the spear is the brand to do that and you just have to leave more is uh candidly when we started bisco we did like five tweets we had no marketing budget it did just take off because it was a really great product and that's how i I mean, we're correct.

30:34That's all about it. And so when I'm talking to brands, I'm like, you have to hold up on both ends. Meaning your product has to very clearly and very quickly demonstrate that there's value. That business is actually going to help that person. And then it very much has to hold up on, is this a cool brand? Does this look good? I know, of course, there's a, no, no, I get it.

30:55Chris Cruz:You're sorry. It was a resonate. But it also just has to get out there. and union companies i think do not budget enough to get the word out there frankly it does cost a lot of money to dig that and so i think they're they're under budgeting or undervaluing how hard it is to actually get your products you get your brand out there you want to notice it yeah so that's that's generally yeah where in an attention economy you're like yeah eyeballs yeah matter yeah how are you getting those eyeballs on you in the right way yeah and those visuals play that right that would that be said one quick point yeah wait that is like i know if people automatically go to we're just gonna buy ads and i think you do need to do that but i think the absolutely best type of marketing is when someone who is in that space uses your products yeah it's like oh this is cool like oh i like this rash bar oh i like this pre-sat but whatever that is and tells their friend that it's free technically but more than that it comes with that like co-sign that stamp approval it's always better if someone else is saying yeah this is great and then yourself of course you're supposed to say that and you're in that type of person who's willing to share yeah what they like and don't like because some people don't ever tell anybody but they're like there is a person yeah that and that type of person is a person you can actually position towards these like Seth Godin has a lot about this idea of the idea virus and finding that person who actually spreads that idea virus is very different than a person like if you ask people certain questions about what seems like easy things to share they may never show they may never tell you where their favorite restaurant is but I'm that person that's like the one I find a restaurant I'm that guy like you're targeting me like I'm gonna talk about it not because I want anything to say about like i have this palette where i'm this purveyor or curator of experiences as much as i'm like when i see something that's worth talking about i like talking about it but it has to come across real it has to be real yeah and that's what i think like will people like often you know influencer marketing doesn't work i think influencer marketing doesn't work if it feels unreal if it feels like i'm being my it feels like i'm being sold to yeah right i think it works if it's like oh no this is naturally something that i use and i love it and it's great yeah and i maybe i got paid for it because it's hey do your thing but like it's not because i'd use this regardless i think it really has to come across authentic so when you started um our spirits the uh the jiu-jitsu brand and you what was the first thing you you thought about was it visuals first in that space too um so man after i've said all this stuff that sounds smart i'm just gonna be real yeah i mean that's what we're trying to say yeah yeah i want people to know like it's not as it's like dave dyre was talking about it's not this linear like up into the right it's like you go through these valleys and things always aren't consistent but people need to know what that journey is like when you were starting this brand and it's it's not quite in this space where it's influenced mass market yet but it has a an appeal and an identity it has an absolute differentiator to the other things in jiu-jitsu but it um but it has an aesthetic and it actually does have a gator dollar i think well two things one i just wanted to design something yeah you had again now yeah i think i was in a place where i was like i don't want to say board because i'm planning to do but like i i just like i just want to make this uh so there was definitely that and then i was looking at a lot of the stuff and yeah there are some brands that are killing it yeah i'll buy an impreddit oh yes yeah i love a lot of credit but a lot of these other brands are just like it feels like almost like ed hardy by yeah like and so i wanted to bring something that helps a little bit more like somewhere between rugby or cycling uh yeah to that is that and then i think also too and this is like the the other side of it i didn't fully think it through i just like i love jujitsu yeah i love designing yeah i'm md this yeah and maybe in retrospect and i'm i'm doing it it's great it's fine um but i don't particularly love shipping rash guards from my garage right like i got excited about starting the thing but i didn't get excited about like oh well what is this actually how do we fulfill this yeah and So maybe I should have just been like, you know what?

35:32I like jujitsu a lot. I should just like jujitsu.

35:35Chris Cruz:Okay. Dude, through the theme of this is your honest candor about yourself and how you approach things. So I think that's such an important takeaway for everybody inside of the brand space. It's like, hey, you need this self-candor. You need this self-looking. Because that reflectiveness that shows in the way that you approach your things, there is an authenticity. because you're willing to say, I may have just maybe should have done well. I don't know. I think part of it comes, honestly. So I lived in a big year. And you see these fast company-year wired craters. It's like these perfectly airbrushed founders.

36:16And I'm not going to say names, but in one case I saw this fast company and it was talking about how he's basically a genius. and i know this guy and i'm like oh dude he is like struggling right now he's starting in his marriage yeah there's someone's going around there so his company's not going as well as it's like being portrayed like you can run numbers and make them walk the same way and so i was just

36:41Chris Cruz:like oh is this real yeah it's real and so like yeah so i want to try to be open and honest with all that because for the longest time even personally too i was just trying to be like oh i have this all figured out i knew everything because that's like when you take a lot of money in the investment world like as a founder like you're supposed to have all the answers and i remember one time maybe five years ago when i was sitting in a meeting we were in the bay and i was with my team and we're trying to figure out some problem i don't even remember what it was and they looked to me and they were like what should we do greg and i was like before i would have tried to like have the answer and i just in my head i was like i don't know and so i actually was like you know what i don't actually know this is my first started and everyone was like shot i probably shouldn't have done that i don't know but at the same time it was like really framed yeah hey and and actually what came into that is the team really started taking more ownership like not thinking of me as this little g god who you have well now you yeah now you're gonna have to you weren't posturing for your position anymore in that.

37:49Chris Cruz:On a leadership level, you've said, I'm not here because I know everything. Because I think sometimes that's the way people rise. They rise to the ranks because they go, if I can know everything, I will actually get to that top position. And when I'm there, I have to keep maintaining the status and the sense that I know everything. And it's just not possible. And you probably can't know everything. And you're not in charge because you know everything. It's the hour or something, especially creatively. I mean, my hero is Virgil Abloh. Oh, yeah, dude. I have his book on my desk himself. Oh, yeah.

38:21It's incredible.

38:22Chris Cruz:Yeah, it's on the top of it. My wife took a picture the other day because she was in my office. She said, I love this. It's like everything I'm making is for the 17-year-old version of myself. Yeah. It's so deep and rich. People are like, it goes right over their heads for a second. You're like, just sit with it for a little bit and realize you're talking to – there's a child in you that's 17 that wants to have fun and create and just do, and he's doing it for that. It's incredible. like and when i read that you know people are like oh he's a genius and i think but when i read his book and the thought process in his way he collaborates in his way he approaches things i think his genius is that he realized he wasn't a genius right like he would be like three percent all i need to do is change this three percent yeah it's three percent rule is like that's it right there very open and upfront about collaborating and working with people instead of like oh i did this yeah like yeah we did this yeah like very open about like referencing historical influences and learning things and trying things and like oh virgil had such humility in how he approached things i would maybe say he's the best graphic designer or the best architect or the best all the things that he did but coming together they all had a certain perspective that was his loup-et-on collection went in launch and he had that but beautiful runway that was like i think it was all rainbowed out and then the the some of the off-white aesthetic reached over into yeah louboutin's luxury wear and you're like nobody was doing that at that time that didn't exist yeah and he's like one's just so sad that that dude is gone like he was it felt like it was he was changing the world at a pace that i'm like what's coming next with that um so sad that he is not around anymore but the the things that he did like you see brands that are doing what he did but he launched it years ago and they're like they're still riding on that momentum and he's changed industries especially working with Kanye and others like yeah the luxury wear crossing into streetwear culture it's crossing into a whole different demographic Virgil was one of the main players along with Jerry Lorenzo and others yeah that does that as you're saying that going back to the concept of brand I think a lot of brands when they're starting um they eat a copy yeah and so then you don't they're not defined from anyone else and they're like purely looking at oh what does this company in this space do um and i think the other area that i see when i do work with a lot of brands is they completely everything and i think virgil is so good about and maybe he did i don't know i don't have insight that to me it strikes me as i read his books through the watches but he's he follows a certain instincts and he trusts that instincts and he doesn't overthink that yeah like it can be so easy to just like totally overthink is that the right shade of orange and then all of a sudden like months have passed before you have something out when it's just like to trust your gut yeah and i think that does come down to a lot of creators including myself deal with like this self-doubt oh 100 but there's something about just being like let's go but in this podcast is that because i'm our team is going like trust our gut like yeah yeah just just go like like a guy on our team joel says grip it rip it like go like joel um jordan's been telling us to like the guy who's kind of supporting us in this and and you're like all right just move at the speed move fast you break things and so we're like all my whiteboard is take action not another meeting but i'm not their schedule and daughter i just take action every day like this tribe draw we could keep moving yeah or i would call that thought like following sparks yeah like what are those like little things that bring you a little bit of joy like it should be the process of making something should have a sense of joy and that doesn't mean that there's not like rapid grind or harpset but but there's still like a sense of joy like when i do jiu-jitsu there are days when it feels like a grind i'm like man my body hurts i'm new 50 what in the wrong idea why am i getting contorted like i see why is this happening this isn't great what's it but it's good for the ego but i find this i still find the sense of joy yeah like i love doing it and so i think they're whether when you're building a brand like same with visco it's been 15 years i was talking to a photographer uh yesterday and i'm like i still love this there's things about running the business and the pressure of having investors and the pressure of needing to be the next to instagram or whatever that definitely weighs me down but as a whole like i love photography i love talking with photographers i love making stuff with other people and i feel so happy for that because i do meet not me i have friends that are our directors creator barriers like like me mid-40s and i thought it for a while and then come across so cynical and just like the world has done them wrong and ironically a lot of them are making quick loads of money so you would think outside perspective man they made it but but they're not actually happy they all they always just chip on their shoulder and and i i feel for me like man i still feel curious i still feel excited about creativity and talking to people and help you be able to make whatever their dreams are yeah um and i think that i think curiosity keeps you for lack of a word you full and energetic yeah like if you lose that if you lose like curiosity from cynical i think you they start showing up in your person and start showing up in your brand like there's just not this like spark with january bro i think that's i think that's a wrap right there that's it that's the gold right there yeah thanks for coming on today yeah absolutely thanks for having me chris