Gus Van Sant - 'Dead Man's Wire' [LIVE]

32:26And they were Parting Glances and Desert Hearts, which were a little shinier than Malanoche. And so didn't get in. But only one of them lives on on the Criterion Collection. So after My Own Private Idaho, there's even Cowgirls Get the Blues, another adaptation. This one, I guess, was one of the first times where you got pushback from a segment of the critical community. and, you know, I've got some, I wonder, does something like that affect you or are you able to? Out of failure, you mean? Well, I mean, however you want to. Yeah, no, I think that's correct. Was that, is that, how do you bounce back from that, which you did just a year or two later with To Die For, which we'll talk about, but like, I wonder for a young filmmaker who's not been knocked down before, was that really rough?

33:15Yeah, I think it was pretty rough. I was always being positive about it. and it happened slowly because we went to Toronto and people seemed to have a problem. And the releasing company, Fineline, who had done My Own Private Idaho, they were in favor of revisiting the cut. So I actually went in and recut it over a couple of months and it seemed to have no effect. It was still the same movie. There are quite different movies, but there are two versions of it and only one really was released. The release of it was delayed enough so that I was already shooting another film, To Die For, when the release actually happened and we were on the set of To Die For like the morning after the first press came out for Cowgirls and it was bad enough that I literally thought that the actors on the set of To Die For weren't going to listen to me.

34:15and then I realized oh they were actually listening and responding and it wasn't like they weren't holding it against me and then I thought we just kept moving on so to die for which I still think is one of the best out there it's so well done story of a beautiful ambitious TV meteorologist played by Nicole Kidman who uses an infatuated young guy Joaquin Phoenix to kind of help her escape her marriage to Matt Dillon again. I want to ask you just about how personnel-wise that one came together, because first of all, obviously, very tragically, something that happened between, I think, the time of making Even Cowgirls and To Die For is this actor who you had really clearly befriended and bonded with.

35:06River Phoenix suddenly passes away, and now his brother Joaquin is in to die for alongside a very early Nicole Kidman and I just wonder you work after River's passing with Joaquin several times it'll it'll come up and then also with his sister I guess I just wonder clearly and understandably really must have knocked you for for a loop with with River did that in any way how did that shape your next few years and decisions His death, you mean? Yeah. I mean, it was a huge tragedy, a huge, huge tragedy. I mean, I think the To Die For project had been started, so I was working on something, which was good to have something to work on.

35:55And I think that was Joaquin's thing as well. He wasn't acting, and suddenly River was gone, and I think that he, you know, was just like the thing that he needed. and we happened to be looking for somebody just like him. And he came up from Florida to audition, which was really touching. He was really excited about trying to get the part. And so he got it. That was the first time directing from a screenplay that you hadn't also written. This was Buck Henry's screenplay. It was the first time directing for a major studio, big studio, Columbia. And you once described To Die For as, quote, a cleaned-up version of one of my films, close quote.

36:40What does that mean? I don't know. I don't know if I was just making something up. Cleaned-up version of one of my films. I guess is it more... Probably cleaned up in the sense that it had, you know, Buck Henry writing it and was very astute and, you know, sharp and just cleaner. But, yeah, it was a Joyce Maynard, interesting novel that the producer at Columbia had found this novel and had this idea. She knew my agent at the time. Both were clients of John Burnham, Buck and I. And Buck had wanted to do something together after the few films that I'd made. And so they sort of put it together as a package, like Joyce Maynard's novels.

37:29She had a marriage advice column syndicated and had recently been divorced. And so her advice column was no longer successful. But she wrote this sort of fictionalized story of a true event in New Hampshire. She made it in the form of a spoken word novel, statements from each of the characters in a form that was kind of popular at the time. George Plimpton was doing it with Edie Sedgwick. He'd made this amazing spoken word novel. But she was, like, pretending to make a spoken word novel. And Buck and I decided to do it. And Buck was very, he was very funny and a professional comedian and professional comic writer.

38:20And he was super into the new, like, form of news, which was cable news, which was sort of everywhere. where all of a sudden there were large numbers of reporters that would descend on courthouses and things when there hadn't been before. There were only, you know, the three main ABC, NBC, CBS. But now there was like hundreds of local news channels or programs so that it made trials very much like a circus. He was into just cable TV and he was watching everything from, I remember calling him up and he said, that I'm watching perhaps the most interesting thing I've ever seen. It's Charles Manson defending himself as an inmate and trying to get a pardon with his own defense, which was pretty interesting.

39:13He was sort of obsessed with the form, and he wrote this kind of great piece that we made him to die for. And I just want to one quick follow up on that. But Nicole Kidman, I still think it's maybe the best thing she's ever done. And she very nearly was not going to be in that part. How did that happen? Nicole had come in and tried out and done a reading. And at the time, I was unaware that she was Tom Cruise's wife. But that sort of added to her the interest in her, I think, in the production. Very interested in Nicole. and I had found somebody else to play the part, but we had to wait until she shot another film.

40:01So there were a number of actresses that were afraid because they were playing a kind of very difficult, somewhat evil or very evil, murderous character that was difficult. They didn't necessarily want to know whether that would work for their characters that they were playing. Nicole, on the other hand, really understood from the start way to play it and what was in the character. I was waiting for this other actress, and then I think Laura Ziskin, the producer, gave Nicole my telephone number, and she called, and she said, look, I know I'm not the favorite actor. And I said, no, that's not necessarily true.

40:43And she said, look, I know it, okay? So just listen. I was destined to play this part, and I will play it perfectly. And she used the word destiny, and so I fell for it. Okay, so this brings us to a little movie called Good Will Hunting, which is 1997, the story of a Harvard janitor who turns out to be a lot more than meets the eye. And now this is Matt Damon and Ben Affleck wanting to get into the movies, wrote this for themselves to star in. Script was more desired than their acting participation was, but they held firm, is my understanding. How did you first come to know about them and their script?

41:25And what was the appeal for you about getting involved with this? It was given to me by somebody at Miramax. And they had said that Ben and Matt, who were people that I knew, Casey had played in To Die For. We tried to get Matt to play Jimmy, which was Joaquin's role. We tried to consider him, but he was just too, like, normal-looking to, like, play this character. and even though he tried to lose weight and so forth, I got to know him and he suggested Casey Affleck, who was in the film with Joaquin. So I knew the group and Mark Tusk from Miramax, a friend that I knew from film festivals, he said, you know, those two guys, they've written a script.

42:10I had read about it when they were writing it. The trade publications showed them holding up checks that like two actors make money writing screenplay, which was at that time news, which is strange because a lot of actors write screenplays now, but it was like big news. And so I knew of the screenplay. It didn't occur to me to read it because I assumed it was an action movie that they had written, which it was actually. And Castle Rock had bought it and had developed it over 10 drafts. They had to sort of excise the action qualities of the story because Will, as a super genius, was desired by outside forces like Russia, and the NSA had to keep an eye on him in their action-adventure version.

43:01And so there was little sequences where, or big sequences, Matt would play games with the NSA that were trying to always tail him and would race around town. So they exhalized those parts. I read it because I happened to be in New York making a video and Mark Tusk had given me the script and I thought it was great you know I thought this is kind of amazing and I found I called Joaquin to get Casey's number and called Casey to get Ben's number and you know talked to them he and Matt and they were like great you know like I said thanks for the you know support And I said, if you need a director, you know, I'd do it.

43:43They were happy about that, and that was okay, but Harvey had other plans. He had the idea to, you know, offer it to Robert Redford. He could play the character of Sean that Robin Williams eventually played, and he could direct it. Ultimately, he wanted Brad Pitt to play one guy and Leo DiCaprio to play the other guy. So that was the problem was in tossing Matt and Ben out of their roles that they'd written. And so they kept saying no to any idea that they would not play the roles. And I think through the months that we went through, eventually I was the kind of last guy willing to use them. And it was sort of, for me, a plus.

44:27I wanted to always work with lesser-known characters. And in this case, it was a plus. All the way to the Oscars, who would have imagined. nominated for an Oscar, your film's nominated, you have all this attention on, you probably had more opportunity to do whatever you wanted than ever before, and you decided that the thing you wanted to do was a shot-by-shot remake of Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho. Why was that? I think that I probably didn't appreciate the position I was in. This is a position where I I really was in that place where all the studios really want you to do, not necessarily what they have, but whatever you want.

45:12There was a one pass you get. In my case, it was one pass. Because I made the wrong move. But there was a remake being done at Paramount of seconds that they wanted to change the ending. And there had been through the times that I had gone into studios and talked to the studio heads, they always were, you know, the studios themselves were always remaking things. They were making the Flintstones into live action. They were making the Brady Bunch into live action. They were remaking old 50s films. I remember having a meeting with Casey Silver at Universal who said, introduced me to some of the other vice presidents.

45:59One was in charge of the library. And so there were scripts that had been written that had never been shot, but there were illustrious writers had written them. There were films that they had that you could remake. It just kept dawning on me that the studios would remix things but always change the ending or change things about it that they really should, they being the studios, should try to just literally remake it and not change it. and so I would pitch that not change the actual structure of the shooting and the camera angles and they would laugh it was funny to them and they would say well we won't be doing that anytime soon so at this moment where we were all nominated for Oscars for Good Will Hunting my agent was doing the work and he got the paramount idea going with the remake of Seconds and there was something else we had at another company and then he called and he said um universal like wants to know if you have anything for them because and this is the the day before the oscars so i always figure they're like desperate to get this like prospect with you so that if you win they can turn to their studio head friends and say, we've got his next thing.

47:21And just for that moment alone. And I felt that I know, like, tell Casey Silver at Universal, he'll know what I mean. Remake Psycho, which was the one that I always brought up with Psycho. But don't change anything. And the agent called back and he said, Casey thinks that's a brilliant idea. Aside from laughing, he thought it was brilliant. And so they were up to it. and I had to decide whether I wanted to do it, which was a big decision. Danny Elfman was a really good idea for the Bernard Herrmann score. And he was developed into a friend and he said, you know, the critics will kill you. They will kill you.

48:04And I said, but I'm not really concerned about the critics killing me. And he said, well, they're going to kill you. And so I said, okay, we went and made the movie and the critics killed me. And it's sort of like getting beat up in a bar or something. Well, I wonder if there was some sort of a reaction to, you had started out so indie spirit, grassroots kinds of projects, and then you, Good Will Hunting was a larger scale suit, right? Just a different kind of movie. Now you have this experience with Psycho. Two years after that, you have Finding Forrester, another with Sean Connery. It doesn't get more movie star than that.

48:43And then you embarked on a period with Jerry in 2002, Elephant in 2003, and Last Days in 2005. So three and four years that were, it was, you couldn't have gone more in a different direction. People talk about them as your, like, death trilogy. I guess you could include Paranoid to some degree as well in that group after that, right after that. The LA Times, just to give some context, wrote about Jerry, the first of these, quote, Jerry is about as non-narrative a film as you're likely to see in commercial theaters. You told the New York Times at that time, I'm not really interested in narrative filmmaking anymore.

49:24What happened in your mind to trigger this new period in your career? Were you sure that there was even a viable career path going in this kind of a non-narrative direction? All three of those films were projects that were kind of coming along as I was working on other projects. I think both Last Days, which was loosely based on Kurt Cobain's death, was the first one. And it was really a reaction of the journalistic activity after he died. The amount of newspapers that had Kurt's death on the cover. the amount of articles in each of those newspapers. There were film documentaries about the same subject, but the idea of making a dramatic piece about that would be seen in bad taste, as it was made in bad taste.

50:23And I thought documentaries had become fictional, and fiction films had become documentary sort of through those years already. so I thought there was a place for a dramatist to kind of investigate that subject of Kurt Cobain dying and I started working on that one first and that existed as a sort of loose idea screenplay and then Columbine happened and the same thing was happening during Columbine it was like so much attention but in the drama world you were sort of not allowed to go there. So I was loosely working on that as well. And then Jerry was a much smaller story, you know, in a newspaper in Boston that when I was living in New York, Finding Forrester, Matt and Casey and I had dinner and Matt had this desire to make something small together.

51:28and he was with Winona Ryder at the time and he they had a company and he said there's this story about these two guys who were very um unused to going into the wilderness and they get lost and one kills the other so um we had this news story I had the idea to keep working on it and keep having meetings writing something and going to shoot it inexpensively somewhere with like video cameras and eventually we did we we used bigger cameras and that was the first one and then after that then i i sort of wanted to make the next one which which was the columbine one elephant with we can just shout out wouldn't have happened without someone who just passed away of all people right yeah she was involved in looking for because i was looking for somebody that would fund it.

52:23When Columbine actually happened, there was no way that the media was, especially TV, I wanted it to be a TV movie, and the TV people were battling to keep their police shows on the air because those were being blamed as reasons for violence in high schools. So, yeah, Diane said, oh, we know, a few years had passed, and Diane was, like, at dinner at the same agent's house, and she said, oh, we know Colin Callender over at HBO, he might be really good. And so we went and he agreed to do it. The other thing that kind of unites that group of films is stylistically you were doing things that were very different.

53:04Long shots, slow pacing, repeating things from different perspectives. That was not a coincidence either. Who had you been exposed to and why did that appeal to you? Just cinematically, there had been some, you'd been exposed to different sorts of filmmaking that made you go in that direction, right? Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean, the reason for, you know, the sort of languid long shots and dialogue that didn't really connect to the story, which was something I had seen in a film called Jean Dillman, you know, dialogue that was more like realistic dialogue. It didn't have to do with, like, guiding you into the aspects of the story.

53:43The reason that sort of existed was when we were making Jerry, I thought of it as a John Cassavetes film where there was a lot of talking and when you were with Casey and Matt they kind of were joking and talking all the time and making each other laugh I was assuming that's what we would do when we went into the desert and started that we had really sort of no script we did write a script that we kind of put away later tried to get back But as actors, they were afraid to act like themselves because they think they would look like idiots. And so I was like, well, that's sort of the whole point of the project.

54:29And I sort of struggled with how would we continue. We were in the desert ready to shoot. This kind of improv that I wanted to do was something that they were really against. And I thought, well, we'll do it in a different way. and I started to like draw on films that I had seen that didn't rely on dialogue, really as a result of like the uninterest that my two actors had in doing their own dialogue, which is kind of a passive-aggressive way to even go about it. But it did go into this whole other dream world and the whole other like thing that I liked. So by the time we finished it and I still had a responsibility to go back to HBO to do what Colin called Elephant, I kind of wanted to not do what we had written a script.

55:23It was very didactic and it was very ordinary. And so I tried to get out of that job with Diane leading the way as a producer. And by saying in a meeting with Colin and Diane and another producer, that I didn't want to have any dialogue. I didn't want to have any recognizable characters, all like natural characters. I was really trying to get them to say, well, we can't make it like that. I was trying to get out of the job. And because of Diane's presence, just her existence really makes it feel like you're in a Woody Allen movie because just the way she is. And I think me saying, you know, it's going to be in black and white really long, boring shots.

56:10I didn't say boring, but really long shots. And I was trying to put everything bad into the ideas. And at the end, somebody had tipped off everybody that I was going to say this, so they were ready for it. Colin stood up and he said, well, we need something very unique and original. So we think this is perfect for Elephant. And then I thought, okay, well, if they're really willing to do this, I'll do it. Next thing you're one of only two people who ever win the Palme d 'Or and Best Director for the same film at the Cannes Film Festival for Elephant. So it just shows you can get pretty crazy. But it was a continuation also of Jerry.

56:55Jerry became Elephant. And so we were kind of perfecting like a thing for us. And that Bella Tar. Bella Tar was a really big influence, yeah. His movie, Satan Tango, I had seen was a very big influence. Okay, so after that period of really kind of back to your experimental roots, kind of out there, unusual, non-narrative filmmaking, you go back in the other direction in the best sense with Milk, which, interestingly enough, you had been associated with an earlier incarnation of that that didn't get made, right? But what had happened in the meantime, I guess, was that Brokeback Mountain had happened, right?

57:39And I wonder if, which is another one that I think you at one point were associated with, and I'll leave it to you to share what did or didn't happen there. But with Milk, these are big footsteps that, following in the footsteps of the great documentary, The Times of Harvey Milk, obviously about such a giant in the gay civil rights history. and also at a time, just to remind people, when California had just rejected gay marriage in its Prop 8, was it? And just before, another community organizer was about to be elected president of the United States. So it's just a really interesting moment in time.

58:20How did that all come together, and why hadn't it come together sooner when you'd been involved? You mean just the story of Harvey? Yeah, and just your history. Well, there had been a great documentary made, The Times of Harvey Milk, that won the Oscar for Best Documentary. Way earlier in the, I want to say 70s, 79, maybe I'm wrong about that. I think early 80s. The story was very powerful. There was a book Randy Schultz wrote called The Mayor of Castro Street. And the idea to do it was originally tied to Oliver Stone. and Robin Williams was going to play Harvey. That was like in 1991. The script was very, you know, sort of weak in its description of the gay community.

59:08It was more about Dan White and his sort of eating too many Twinkies that caused him to shoot Harvey Milk in defense. And he almost got, he basically got off with manslaughter, you know, with this defense. So it was more about that, I think. and we wanted it to be more about the gay community and more about Harvey. That sort of made me get sort of squeezed out of that project. And later I ran into Lance Black, who was writing a new script about Harvey that didn't really include the trial of Dan White, which was sort of the key to getting rid of that side of it and just letting Harvey be the lead character.

59:52So what was your story with Brokeback? because that came out three years before Milk, but that had been around also, and there was a time when I'd heard that you, potentially with Matt and Joaquin, were going to do that. Larry McMurtry had optioned the Annie Pruill story, and he had made it into a screenplay. I think they just called me directly, like Larry and Diana Asana, who was co-writer, called and said, would you direct this? So it was like, yeah, I knew the story from the New Yorker who was really happy about it and started working on it. And there was just a number of confusions with like the production and Larry and casting.

1:00:35And it just got slowed down, the progress of it, really during the casting, who could play the characters. I partly was slowing down as well. Everything was just slowing down and it got reinvigorated and again offered to me again. and I think I just had other things that I was doing, and Ang Lee did it instead. And did that version coming out in 05 make it easier for Milk to come together shortly after? Yeah, possibly. Yeah, it possibly did affect. Interesting that these things would take so long. Yeah, it probably did, yeah, no doubt. So in the intervening years, we'll just note, Restless in 2011, dying young girl and a grieving young guy come together.

1:01:20There's a promised land. In 2012, you're back with Matt Damon directing him again from a script that he co-wrote, full circle kind of thing there. The Sea of Trees goes to Cannes with McConaughey, Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot, back with Joaquin in 2018. Then you did something that you'd never done before, a limited series for TV with Feud, Capote vs. the Swans, six of the eight episodes there, I believe you directed. But there had been this gap between Don't Worry, He Won't Get Far on Foot 2018 and Dead Man's Wire, 2025, seven years when you'd been away from narrative features. And I wonder, was that just sort of the way things worked out or had you wanted a little bit of a break?

1:02:02No, there was no break. It was the, during COVID, I made a feature for Gucci, which was a, it was a 12-day project that was basically a whole feature length film. Right after that was the Ryan Murphy show but that was it was an eight show series and I did six of the eight so there was six hours so I was really working hard before so there was no break maybe there was media change one was for fashion and one was for TV when you heard about Dead Man's Wire this is one of these handful in your filmography that was written by somebody else You've often written your own screenplays and then directed them.

1:02:49In this case, it's a guy, Austin Kolodny, who had written it. It's from this true story from 77. But I wonder if you can talk about, I guess, to come back to Nicole Kidman's word of destiny or fortuitiveness or whatever. I mean, this comes out, set in 77, but comes out in 2025 at a time of Luigi Mangione and kind of a number of modern versions that are not that different than this, I think. What appealed to you? Certainly not the first time you made a film about a little guy taking on the system. It was a screenplay that had been developed during COVID by Austin Kolodny, first-time screenwriter.

1:03:34He had been showing it around. There were a lot of different lower-budget companies that had read it and considered it. Tom Culiver, one of the producers, was interested in producing it. They got it together with an actor and with a director just within the last year and a half. And that team fell apart for different reasons. And Cassian, the main producer that I knew that was part of the project, Cassian Elwes, he was somebody I ran into in a restaurant and he said hey you know I have this story you might be interested in doing we have to shoot it soon it was September he wanted to shoot it in November and finish it before December and I sort of like that challenge you know like can you and I had done all the Ryan Murphy things were done super fast so I was used to working fast and I kind of liked it so I I said okay let me read it it was shooting in Louisville Kentucky where I was born and I thought well this could I could you know learn more about Louisville my birthplace and so I you know I got a hold of it and then I suggested Bill Skarsgård and Dacre Montgomery where'd you know I knew them I had never met either one of them but I knew them from their films that I had scene and um and i'd asked at times i'd ask bill to play parts and he would say yeah if it's yeah for sure if it's the lead but if it's if it's not if i'm not playing a lead then i i'll play a bit part but i never really got him into anything and uh so i suggested them cassian said fine and we didn't shoot in november but we like did prepare through november and shot and at the end of December.

1:05:38$15 billion budget, does that sound right? No, it was, there is an undisclosed amount of money. Undisclosed, okay. It's something like that. Not a huge thing, and now going out to the world with a new distributor, Roe K. Roe K, yeah. Just as you share this film with the world in this moment, as I mentioned, just kind of these weird real world parallels, what's... Yeah, I mean, at the time it was September of last year, there was no Luigi Mangione and there was no election yet, presidential election yet. So so many things had changed while we were shooting that really brought into question all these different things that were in our film.

1:06:20And sometimes we were worried. It's like, is this good or bad? We weren't sure. But they were timely. And I was a little, when we first showed it in February, I knew I was a little curious about the sort of activity in the film and the mindsets in the film that the audience that were going to watch it had really sort of been kind of hit over the head with a lot of different things that had happened in the last few months. So I was concerned about the audience, but they had laughed a lot. I don't know, I didn't stay here. A lot of laughs, yeah. Oh, good. Well, that's good. With our last minute here, just a few random rapid-fire things just first thing that comes to your mind.

1:07:04You've directed a lot of music videos. People may or may not realize. David Bowie, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Tracy Chapman, Elton John, Katie Lang, Stone Temple Pilots, Hanson, John Mayer, on and on and on. What's the most memorable one for you? Well, the Chili Peppers was kind of the breakthrough. Under the Bridge. For Under the Bridge for them, the breakthrough song. And it was kind of like a good one for me. I mean, I'm really not very good at music videos, but that one was pretty good. You interviewed for the job of directing 2011's The Twilight Saga, Breaking Dawn. That doesn't strike me as something that you would obviously be interested in.

1:07:45What was the appeal there? I had read that some of the actors, you had said my name when they were thinking about people they wanted to be directed by, and so I just tried to see if I could get the job. Okay. I couldn't. But I was so unprepared, too. It was like one of those things where I just thought we'd just walk in and talk about it. But they needed, like, a hard sell. Okay, a similar situation. Just in the out-of-left-fieldness of it a little bit, is it true that you expressed interest in directing Fifty Shades of Grey? Yeah, I had a friend who was writing it. and so I thought just the popularity of the book I thought it would be an interesting project I didn't really know that at the time like when we had a meeting about it and I actually made a reel for it but in talking about it I didn't really realize that their intention or the author's intention was quite powerful in the making of the film version.

1:08:50The book is like very much like a lot of sex each moment in the long book. I didn't know that they were not interested at all in any sex in the movie version. I thought they were going to go make something new or something. I think they did a good job. I don't know if my version would have been a little bit different. Maybe too much. If you were making milk today, could you and would you make it with a heterosexual actor playing Harvey Milk? Well, that's what we did, but I don't know. Any question? It'd be sort of a question. Yeah. Lastly, we've covered in depth just an amazing career and body of work.

1:09:37Is there something that you have not yet done that you still really want to do? I think that it's been, you know, I'm at a stage in my life and career where it's been and just great to work on stuff. It doesn't, it almost, that's why I think I was so easy to like say yes to this, to Dead Man's Wire, was that it was something that I could work and form into something. That the subjects and the stories, they're important, but just the act of like making something is the thing I most want to do. That's great. Well, thank you for all the great work. Thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

1:10:24Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:10:38Thanks for listening to Awards Chatter. We really appreciate it and would really appreciate you taking just a minute more to subscribe to the podcast and to leave us a rating and review on your podcast app. And to follow us on Twitter and Instagram, where our handle is at Awards Chatter. On those platforms, we announce upcoming guests and provide details about special live recordings of the podcast that you can attend. Until next time, thanks again for tuning in.

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